Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread

[Imperator Romanum]

how is tapu not broken for 2 OKing the whole tier with specs(1 set covers everything it needs) but pheromosa is broken instead with a number of checks like toxapex, mega sableye, ferrthorn buzzwole, steel flying pokes, mega scizor, marowak. u-turn spam hurts bad but generally there's a decent switch in to most of it's options to scout.

honestly mega sableye got nerfed this gen losing prankster pre-mega evolving, burn nerf, toxapex and fairies that tear it's throat out super fast.

even shiinotic's spab moonblast can tear trough it quick enough, or random Z-move lures.

Lele is likely the most broken thing in the tier right now and really aids pheromosa with psychic terrain


wait how does vested Tartar do pursuit trapping tapu lele?

Damn, I didn't know Ferrothorn countered Pheromosa...

Anyways, they're not comparable at all. Tapu Lele is a wallbreaker while Pheromosa is a pivot. Both do their job extremely effectively - one breaks its "counters" with a coverage move while the other pivots out on them. However I don't think we should be quick-banning anything, we've got the worst out of the tier let it settle a bit.

 

[Seamus Eso]

Tapu Lele wrecks offensive teams too. Perhaps even more so than stall.


I don't know what your definition of manageable is but if you have a list of counters that make Lele easy then please post it. CB Weavile is far from the perfect counter as it can't switch-in risking a moonblast and pursuit isn't a kill without hazard damage. And if you do get a kill your opponent still has momentum as you're choice-locked into a 40 BP move.

Dont post something unless you understand what I said. I never mentioned CB weavile as "the perfect counter". So I'm not gonna even answe you because you barely understand what I said and twisted it. Managable means having a number of checks and ways to deal with something within reasonable boundaries of a tier. If you're having a hard time dealing with it, I suggest you find someone moderately good at ORAS OU and ask them to teach u how to play in metagame that had Mega Gardevoir.

how is tapu not broken for 2 OKing the whole tier with specs(1 set covers everything it needs) but pheromosa is broken instead with a number of checks like toxapex, mega sableye, ferrthorn buzzwole, steel flying pokes, mega scizor, marowak. u-turn spam hurts bad but generally there's a decent switch in to most of it's options to scout.

honestly mega sableye got nerfed this gen losing prankster pre-mega evolving, burn nerf, toxapex and fairies that tear it's throat out super fast.

even shiinotic's spab moonblast can tear trough it quick enough, or random Z-move lures.

Lele is likely the most broken thing in the tier right now and really aids pheromosa with psychic terrain


wait how does vested Tartar do pursuit trapping tapu lele?

Your argument is so stupid that a legitimate response will take hours to write. Did you know CB Tyrantrum OHKOs or 2HKOs everything while SD Extreme Speed Arceus is checked or countered by common pokemon such as Skarmory, Mega Scizor, Mega Sableye, Ferrothorn, Tank Chomp, Land-T, Umbron, Quagsire, Unware Clefable, Tangrowth, Hippodawn, Slowbro, Mega Slowbro etc? CB Tyrantrum>SD Arceus. Your mind must be blown. You better get some nap now or you might get a heart attack.


Just so you guys know, Tapu Lele+Psychic Terrain support MIGHT be an issue later when the meta settles. Please dont make statements such Tapu Lele the most broken thing right now when Pheromosa and friends run free and save yourself from being a joke.

 

[aybekay]

How do you deal with stall ? I do click x when I see a stall team. I really think it is boring to play against and Mega Sableye is still a problem paired with all those other walls.

Do you think clicking outright the X button is a solution to the problem called "stall".

 

[Machi]

Just so you guys know, Tapu Lele+Psychic Terrain support MIGHT be an issue later when the meta settles. Please dont make statements such Tapu Lele the most broken thing right now when Pheromosa and friends run free and save yourself from being a joke.

When you have fairly fast and frail mons that are generally allergic to priority, e.g. Greninja, Pheromosa, Lando-I, Mega-Alakazam, etc. You can't exactly say she's doing anything beneficial to helping keep ""Pheromosa and friends" from being any less broken, considering that they are among the biggest beneficiaries of these types of teams.

 

[Seamus Eso]

When you have fairly fast and frail mons that are generally allergic to priority, e.g. Greninja, Pheromosa, Lando-I, Mega-Alakazam, etc. You can't exactly say she's doing anything beneficial to helping keep ""Pheromosa and friends" from being any less broken, considering that they are among the biggest beneficiaries of these types of teams.

We ban broken threats, not what SUPPORTS the broken threats.

 

[Machi]

We ban broken threats, not what SUPPORTS the broken threats.

Except that doesn't mean the support itself cannot be considered broken in its own rights, with a solid combination of actually being able to pull its own weight offensively while supporting other offensive mons -- meaning it is a low cost but high reward support. Support in itself can be considered broken, or even suspected. Because in this case if Lele chooses to stay in and just duke it out she'd be dishing out a lot of damage, courtesy of her terrain. Or if you choose to sac her well now your set up sweeper or scarf cleaner can more or less go hog wild because priority has been neutered. Either way, that's a fairly good deal for little effort.

 

[Photofluid]

How do you deal with stall ? I do click x when I see a stall team. I really think it is boring to play against and Mega Sableye is still a problem paired with all those other walls.

Do you think clicking outright the X button is a solution to the problem called "stall".

Well, balance decisions are never made base on "fun", thats utterly irrelevant to the discussion

 

[UltiMario]

Mega Gengar says otherwise

Mega Gengar doesn't need to support anything because it's broken on it's own. It's ludicrously fast, extremely hard hitting, and has Shadow Tag. It doesn't need to support something on your team for a sweep because it's very well capable of getting 2+ kills every game all by itself.

 

[Photofluid]

Mega Gengar doesn't need to support anything because it's broken on it's own. It's ludicrously fast, extremely hard hitting, and has Shadow Tag. It doesn't need to support something on your team for a sweep because it's very well capable of getting 2+ kills every game all by itself.

That was simply faulse, its insane revenge kill potential was a pain but it was not what it was banned for as the meta was still super volatile, it was banned because people started running moves like destiny bond and perish song and that was what worried people and scored its ban. If you checked out the threads back then it has been explicitly stated that mgengar was banned under support clause, and as a support. Its offensive strength contributed but not by much really, and there were much superior offensive threats in the meta back then.

This set of logic latter spread to other shadow tag users and ultimately caused the entire ability being removed, because of its off the chart support potential.

 

[Colonel M]

Shadow Tag is part of that support clause. It was able to revenge kill with certainty of the opponent never being able to escape. Perish Song and Destiny Bond were just icing on the cake.

In before someone says Mega Gengar has counters like the old Mega Gengar suspect thread.

 

[tigers jaw]

This "discussion" devolved into absurdity long ago. Mega Gengar's best set wasn't even Perish Trap, and regardless, shit is broken as fuck. Not to echo bludz (I think it was bludz?) a few pages ago but this is the sort of thing that is best discussed in private or the OU room on PS! (except Gengar, for obvious reasons.) There are far more pressing things to take care of than Lele as it stands, that much should be obvious.

Anyway, to add some actual content in the hopes of garnering some real discussion in this thread, I'd like to pose the question of what your most-favoured Mega evolutions, both defensive and offensive are. Personally, I've found this to be not only incredibly effective, but also really, really fun:

Sharpedo @ Sharpedonite
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Protect
- Psychic Fangs
- Crunch
- Poison Jab

Something that players, or at least the ones I talk to, are starting to catch onto in the current "meta", and it has an incredible time tearing through the current Fairy- and Psychic spam nature of teams. A perfect storm, for want of a better phrase, has arisen in the tier for Mega Sharpedo to shine. There are so many instances in which I find myself looking at team preview and thinking "ok, weaken X, outright win from there on out". Forms incredible offensive cores with the likes of Z-Fly Lando, Banded Hoopa-U and Volt-Turn support to weaken opposing teams into range of coverage or Crunch (which really isn't that much weakening at all considering the force Crunch has behind it). Lacking Water coverage isn't really that deleterious considering the relevant targets have dropped off significantly with the general decrease in Water-weak Pokemon which are willing and able to take Crunch, and; regardless, Psychic Fangs and Poison Jab are pretty much mandatory and have far more to offer than Waterfall does. You could, and probably should, run Jolly as to outpace the likes of Scarf Tapu Lele and Genesect at +1, but remaining in regular form for the +2 isn't difficult at all from my experience, especially with a team that weakens checks significantly (hint: ones with Hoopa-U), not to mention doing this: 252+ Atk Strong Jaw Sharpedo-Mega Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Genesect: 237-280 (83.7 - 98.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock is really fucking nice.

Anyway, back to the question: what Megas have you been enjoying as of late, and which ones do you think will have a shot at cementing themselves in the tier as things settle down?

 

[Chef EZ-Mac]

In continuing tigers jaws question of the most effective megas in the tier, I think we should turn to Mega Metagross as one of the premier megas in both offensive and defensive situations.

In ORAS Metagross struggles with a low base speed before it megas that hindered its ability from being able to effectively pivot in and out of the game. It also suffered from 4mms wanting to be able to run boltbeam, and Zen, AND hammer arm, AND bullet punch.

Now in SuMo where the premier walls are outright tossed by its psychic STAB (Mantine, Toxapex, Marowak, and the rise of Venusaur). While the others take a big chunk from its coverage (Ferrothorn, Celesteela, Fini, Heatran).
The rise of many offensive threats also gives it an outright boost in viability. Phermosa takes 60% from Bullet Punch. Lando-I is outsped and killed and Hoopa drops to a STAB meteor mash.

Defensively it also brings much to a team by being able to stomach hits from either, weak bulky mons or weak coverage moves, makes it very easy to come in and scare many things out. Stall cannot touch it, and since the ban of Aegislash and people choosing to run spdef Celesteela over Skarmory you basically 6-0 very easily.

Obviously many of its old problems still exists. It's still shut down by Scizor and sometimes it still wants the ability to run 5 moves, but I feel the change of ORAS to SuMo gave it a huge increase of viability.

tl;dr Metagross is better than it was in ORAS.

 

[oreofestar]

What idiot in their right mind thinks Tapu Lele is broken at this stage lmao. Stop putting so much emphasis in stall, if it sucks, it sucks, deal with it. Just like how offense sucked late XY and most of ORAS. The logic of preserving stall's viability as a good reason to ban threats is utterly biased bullshit. The metagame doesnt owe stall or defensive playstyles anything. We shouldn't have to care if something forces stall to use very specific shitmons or makes it outright unviable at all as long as it's managable overall. Tapu Lele is 100% managable without much effort. On the long run when the meta settles, it might be taken into consideration all though highly unlikely since Psychic Terrain has some powerful abusers in Mega Alakazam, Mega Metagross, Latios etc. But not right now lmfao. Tapu Lele is a very healthy presence in a Toxapex and random bulky mon infested meta and will relieve of all the priority abuse seen in previous gens.

And fyi, stall gained a lot of ridiculous additions that makes your stall is unviable statement a huge fucking joke. TOXAPEX, Tapu Bulu, Celesteela, Buzzwole aka the 107/139/53 bulky thing with Roost and a fucking 139 attack stat, Aurora Veil and fucking buffed up Dugtrio. With Dugtrio, the Goth STall ABR cancer garbage is likely to come back since Sash Screech dug can easily get rid of Manaphy, M Hera, Clef, M garde and your motherfucking Tapu Lele so quit complaining. Heck, it's CB Weavile's pursuit trap bait. Pheromosa and Mega Sableye are the things that needs to go right now. I'm expecting Hoopa/Land-I to stay so we dont end up in a fat mon spam shitfest like late XY.

I agreed with everything you said up to Mega Sable, didn't think it should have been banned last gen and definitely not now with the new wallbreakers and Mega change which hurts Sable .

 

[JackTheGamer]

With Z-Celebrate, is there any merit to running Jolteon over Raikou now? Your faster, hit harder than AV Raikou, and have similar defenses.

 

[Random Passerby]

With Aegislash banned and Psychics having more breathing room, I have been using Mega Gyarados, which I find a lot of team are weak to when it is at +1/+1 (Water/ Dark STAB is good in this meta). As a deal sweetener, Tapu Lele / Tapu Koko destroys Celesteela (if you lack Taunt) and Toxapex which wall Mega Gyarados. The annoyance of being outsped at +1 by Scarf Genesect and Pheromosa is making me consider trying out Mega Sharpedo though.

 

[HailFall]

With Z-Celebrate, is there any merit to running Jolteon over Raikou now? Your faster, hit harder than AV Raikou, and have similar defenses.

Not really. You give up an item and a moveslot for that, and it's still not that hard to force you out (pretty much any koko check will still do it.

 

[Gerard]

Can we stop saying that the fact a pokemon can't switch unto another makes said mon broken? That hasn't been true since last gen on about half the metagame and is specially not true this one where any pokemon could potentially have a Z-move to brute force past a check.

 

[Random Passerby]

New contraversial idea while we're all ranting about banning stuff: let's ban Stealth Rock. I'm sick of its shit.

I feel like I'm constantly being punished by gamefreak for liking Bug Pokémon (and Crobat).

Death to rocks. Save the bugs. Buff Ledian.

This is not the thread to discuss about changing the Smogon policy of banning Pokemon instead of moves. To suggest that, please talk to the OU mods or OU Tier Leader instead (although you better come out with a good reason for it). However, there is discussion taking place in the Policy Review Forum. General consensus is to not ban Stealth Rock though.

 

[Subject 18]

Like Random Passerby mentioned, there is already a thread discussing banning and suspect testing Stealth Rock. You can post your concerns there or message one of the council members to make your point.

Thanks.

 

[Marzbar]

Speaking of rocks....
Has anybody had any success with Midday Lycanroc?

115 attack, 112 speed, focus sash, swords dance, priority STAB accelerock seems cute on paper

 

[DDRMaster]

Defensive Mega Venusaur has been working well for me. Pheromosa, Xurkitree, and the Tapus (besides Lele) can't do much to it without running odd moves. It can also stall out Toxapex and Mantine with Leech Seed, despite having less recovery PP than them.

Lele also isn't a free switch in because of Sludge Bomb, which will take away most of its HP. It seems like all you need to do is keep it away from Psychic-types to keep it alive.

 

[Martin]

Can we stop saying that the fact a pokemon can't switch unto another makes said mon broken? That hasn't been true since last gen on about half the metagame and is specially not true this one where any pokemon could potentially have a Z-move to brute force past a check.

When you have almost no switch-ins just to your STABs without even needing to resort to a Z move there is definitely something up lol. And I don't mean like BW Hydreigon nuts where it technically has no counters but it is very dependent on non-STAB coverage to break through certain types, I mean like where you literally click your STABs and watch virtually the whole tier drop. I'm talking about stuff like Hoopa-U, Tapu Lele, Greninja etc. when I say this, and honestly I still think all of these things are completely insane.

On the topic of stuff that are completely insane, I think the other big issues (even bigger than the stuff above) are the U-turn spammers: Phero and Gene. There is so little counterplay to these things (my favorite is prolly Flame Body Chandelure 'cause of it's crispy 30% burn rate+HJK immunity, Ice Beam resistance and Flamethrower resistance) and honestly these two 'mons are just insanely cheap in general.

 

[Eievui-Nymphia]

I think that the discusion is too ban-happy right now. If we're discussing a lot of bans, we may end with 25 or so bans in 1 year or so, in a tier where in many cases, it would be unusable, which crashes with the spirit of OU. I know that UU and RU but those tiers are secondary compared to OU (and the majority of BL are OU viable, at least in Gen VI).

I think that we had to wait until PokeBank and wait a few weeks more to see what happens to the National Pokedex and with the unreleased Mega Stones*. I will say this because Tapu Lele may have a problem with some Fairies that are currently unreleased (like Mega Altaria or Mega Gardevoir). I think it's the case of Tapu Lele.

And of today, I doubt that Tapu Koko is broken. It's Speed is really high, but 1) Its Main Physical STAB Is Wild Charge, that causes recoil and it's only 90 BP, 2) his physical coverage is resisted to non-STAB Brave Bird and U-turn, none of them covering 3 of the 4 types that Wild Charge can't, including the one that is inmune (and it doesn't cover Ferrothorn, who at least has Iron Barbs). 3) It only has Base 95 Special Attack, not 130 and 4) Only has Thunderbolt, Thunder, Dazzling Gleam (not Moonblast), Grass Knot and Hidden Power. Give it time to at least stabilizing the metagame.

*I doubt that missing Mega Stones would be unreleased long after PokeBank is released.

Quick Bans are an EXCEPTIONAL method of dealing with bans when it was so obvious that they broken and make the metagame unplayable (Mega Salamence in ORAS OU, what was worse than XY Xerneas in Ubers) or it contrainsts the metagame too much (XY Mega Kangaskhan, XY Mega lucario, BW Shaymin-Sky, SM Zygarde-Complete).

And Hoppa-Unbound is an event Pokemon that has 680 BP and its allowed to have an item. The rare thing is why is in OU (it is because of his really bad defense).

 

[Vague]

Landorus-T @ Flyinium-Z
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Fly
- Stealth Rock

tigers jaw mentioned Z-Fly Landorus-T and it's actually a really good lure overall, especially when pairing it with Mega Sharpedo or Mega Gyarados, both of which are particularly strong atm (same typing, coincidence?) and will probably remain so. iirc most people just roll with offensive Lando when utilizing z-moves to make the very most out of it's power, but i actually use the defensive set for the sake of role compression and the fact that supersonic strike is a flipping nuke even without investment. you still virtually ko every bulky grass in the tier with ease after rocks while maintaining the excellent utility defensive landorus has to offer. obviously, these aren't the usual ev spreads ran, but they represent of how it'd fare against them in a worst case scenario.

0 Atk Landorus-T Supersonic Skystrike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 320-380 (79.2 - 94%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

0 Atk Landorus-T Supersonic Skystrike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 468-552 (108.3 - 127.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 Atk Landorus-T Supersonic Skystrike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 324-384 (89 - 105.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

0 Atk Landorus-T Supersonic Skystrike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tapu Bulu: 338-402 (98.2 - 116.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

also, what does everyone like to run in mega gyarados' last slot? i usually see earthquake which is nice and all for hitting toxapex and Water/Dark resists for solid damage, but has anyone actually used taunt or substitute? i've used the latter and it's pretty decent for avoiding status and intimidates, but it doesn't work against stall as well as it did last generation anymore with all the phasing and hazing going around. i think earthquake or another coverage move like iron head if you're very weak to bulu or clefable is the way to go.

Volcanion @ Leftovers / Shuca Berry / Wacan Berry / Grassium-Z
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Steam Eruption
- Fire Blast / Flamethrower
- Hidden Power [Grass] / Solar Beam
- Sludge Bomb

Lots of slashes but I don't think Volcanion isn't that great, but it's pretty cool to use as an answer to Genesect, Tapu Fini, Magearna, Kartana, Mega Scizor, etc. So it has it's uses, but fair share of disadvantages too, it's pretty darn slow and the hazard weakness can make or break it's effectiveness. On a whole, I think non-choice sets are the most versatile sets since you could run a range of items like Wacan Berry to lure Xurk and Koko, Shuca for Drill or Lando, Lefties for some form of longevity, even Grassium + Solar Beam to hit bulky waters very hard. Pretty cool mon that can make it's way onto a few teams.

 

[57west]

Speaking of rocks....
Has anybody had any success with Midday Lycanroc?

115 attack, 112 speed, focus sash, swords dance, priority STAB accelerock seems cute on paper

I like it, but Ive basically just used it as a suicide lead, and I have taunt over SD for the meta right now