That frosslass set is REALLY interesting. It's like a psuedo shuffler with all the switches it forces. I wish it has more resistances to switch in on. If only it had levitate. ;;u;;
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Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Celticpride
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Sorry to dash your hopes, but Grass resistance is not enough to stop Tapu Bulu:
252+ Atk Miracle Seed Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar on Grassy Terrain: 293-345 (113.1 - 133.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
So be careful when trying to switch into it. Still, anything else you said is valid.
Oh yeah, forgot about CB. I did the calcs using Bulu-stall builds with Horn Leech.
The most common Tapu Lele set at the moment is either specs or scarf, so Gengar has to be wary of scarfed variants.
Gengar is also a decent check to Pheromosa, with a 4x resistance to Bug and immunity to HJK, and it can OHKO in return. It might be 2HKOed by LO Poison Jab / Ice Beam, haven't bothered with calculations for that though. As a side note, Gengar also has the capability to 2HKO Toxapex with Thunderbolt. It can also be a decent revenge killer with a Choice Scarf, although I think other options are more viable. Gengar's support movepool is pretty substantial too, being able to stop stall with Taunt and crippling physical sweepers with Will-o-wisp. Honestly Levitate was kind of a bonus for Gengar, as most of its previous success came from a combination of its typing, movepool, and high special attack and speed stats. That being said, there are many new threats such as Greninja that can outspeed and KO and Pokémon with access to Earthquake can now target Gengar without fear of Levitate. All in all, Gengar doesn't seem likely to drop to UU, however, it is in a slightly strange position given the current metagame.
As a side note, continuing the Tapu Lele topic, I've found Magearna to be a very good counter to Tapu Lele, as it resists both of its STAB moves and takes Focus Blast and Hidden Power Fire easily with its amazing bulk. It can proceed to set up with Gear Shift or fire off powerful STAB moves in return. Magearna in general seems to be a good check for the powerful Psychic types running rampant at the moment.
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Magearna is an Aegislash crossed with Rotom-W. It shouldn't be very surprising it can ruin the day for Fairy and Psychic types.
But that means she will get banned for the exact same controversial reasons of Aegislash: she is simply "too useful".
But that means she will get banned for the exact same controversial reasons of Aegislash: she is simply "too useful".
I've been liking AV Magearna myself. Considering it has a slow Volt Switch, Fairy-type Draco Meteor, and a special Moxie (that works even when something dies to indirect damage) all you really need is something to give it recovery (Wish passing or Tapu Bulu--who also eats EQs for breakfast).
I doubt it. Magearna is a lot more easily walled (her STAB moves aren't as spammable as Aegi's Shadow Ball) and unlike Aegi she doesn't have the King's Shield mindgames or priority Shadow Sneak. She also can't really go mixed like Aegi can (MUCH lower physical attack than Aegi, no Play Rough, only physical coverage move is Brick Break). I should also mention she can be trapped with Duggy or (if she's weakened enough and doesn't have Aura Sphere) Magnezone, Aegi can't be (Would you use pursuit on those defenses? Or risk the King's Shield drop if your name isn't Bisharp?).
She's good for cleaning with Shift Gear or being a bulky as hell tank/pivot, but she has her enemies.
Aegislash was banned for being incredibly overcentralizing, consistently forcing 50/50s because of King's Shield, was capable of running a myriad of sets who all had unique counters, and having effectively 50/150/150/150/150/60 base stats thanks to the Stance Changes. If we banned pokemon for being too useful then Landorus-Therian would have been banned last gen. There's nothing controversial about banning Aegislash; I'm pretty sure everyone agrees banning it is the avenue to a healthy metagame overall.
Magearna is a really strong pokemon but I don't see her getting banned any time soon. Her base 65 speed means she has to run a Shift Gear set to get a sweep off, and even then she has plenty of viable counters in strong Steel types.
I've been using AV Magearna with wish support. Magearna is so fat and amazing and so easy to wish pass too. I have been trying Alomomola + Magearna + Scarf Ditto to huge success, the only real annoying thing for them to face is Alolan Marowak and Tapu Koko, but otherwise is solid vs most of the offensive meta (magearna slow volt switch works good with slow uturn Landt and Ditto)
Edit: replay of magearna and wish carrying tf out of me: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-491593940
Edit2: aura sphere / focus blast on av magearna is so meh, I swapped it to hidden power fire for genesect scizor and ferrothorn and I have never looked back (I guess this magearna might b weaker to mag but I just VSwitch and tank hp fire ezpz to scarf ditto with hp fire evs and trap their mag lol)
Edit: replay of magearna and wish carrying tf out of me: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-491593940
Edit2: aura sphere / focus blast on av magearna is so meh, I swapped it to hidden power fire for genesect scizor and ferrothorn and I have never looked back (I guess this magearna might b weaker to mag but I just VSwitch and tank hp fire ezpz to scarf ditto with hp fire evs and trap their mag lol)
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So the Usage Statistics are up for the first month of play, and I found a couple interesting things to comment on.
| 11 | Celesteela | 12.55094% | 101996 | 10.432% | 80752 | 11.100% |
| 23 | Skarmory | 7.72845% | 52155 | 5.334% | 42503 | 5.842% |
The tale of two metal bird pokemon. Seeing as these two have similar roles and typing, it stands to reason most teams choosing to run one won't run the other. While currently I can't say which is more useful, it will remain to be seen which one gets used more often. Personally I think Skarmory's access to spikes, roost, and stealth rock outweigh Celesteela's better offensive presence and leech seed, but it's definitely an interesting tradeoff.
| 18 | Dugtrio | 8.62250% | 56982 | 5.828% | 41402 | 5.691% |
| 43 | Magnezone | 4.49065% | 39920 | 4.083% | 31244 | 4.295% |
The two top trappers are both in the OU range this month. I suspect duggy will stay but Magnezone is a surprise, although the fact that Celesteela is at 11 and Tapu Bulu is at 12 should explain some of Mag's popularity.
| 39 | Pelipper | 5.61340% | 68896 | 7.046% | 62428 | 8.581% |
| 47 | Kingdra | 4.07374% | 45213 | 4.624% | 33038 | 4.541% |
Rain is good, guys. Helped out by OU's current #1 mon, Tapu Koko (after Aegislash ban) rain's boost is really a crazy part of the metagame right. I think I have yet to see the definitive rain team, but every time I see the pelican on the other side I definitely take it seriously.
| 55 | Tornadus-Therian | 2.63607% | 18202 | 1.862% | 13853 | 1.904% |
| 57 | Charizard-Mega-Y | 2.60763% | 34082 | 3.486% | 26101 | 3.588% |
| 59 | Keldeo | 2.42211% | 17648 | 1.805% | 12905 | 1.774% |
former OU staples that are in UU range at the moment. Keldeo definitely gained some new checks in Mantine and Toxapex, while the bulky teams that Tornadus-T was so good on seem to be losing to Gene/Pheromosa at the moment. Zard-Y tho is a surprise, with the decrease in usage of Latios and Latias I feel like he is pretty good right now, albeit a bit weak to Tapu Koko.
| 2 | Tapu Koko | 23.67374% | 205579 | 21.026% | 157571 | 21.659% |
| 3 | Pheromosa | 19.81851% | 185112 | 18.932% | 132002 | 18.144% |
| 4 | Landorus-Therian | 18.73396% | 110446 | 11.296% | 93666 | 12.875% |
| 7 | Genesect | 16.69058% | 80167 | 8.199% | 66293 | 9.112% |
V O L T T U R N
| 11 | Celesteela | 12.55094% | 101996 | 10.432% | 80752 | 11.100% |
| 23 | Skarmory | 7.72845% | 52155 | 5.334% | 42503 | 5.842% |
The tale of two metal bird pokemon. Seeing as these two have similar roles and typing, it stands to reason most teams choosing to run one won't run the other. While currently I can't say which is more useful, it will remain to be seen which one gets used more often. Personally I think Skarmory's access to spikes, roost, and stealth rock outweigh Celesteela's better offensive presence and leech seed, but it's definitely an interesting tradeoff.
| 18 | Dugtrio | 8.62250% | 56982 | 5.828% | 41402 | 5.691% |
| 43 | Magnezone | 4.49065% | 39920 | 4.083% | 31244 | 4.295% |
The two top trappers are both in the OU range this month. I suspect duggy will stay but Magnezone is a surprise, although the fact that Celesteela is at 11 and Tapu Bulu is at 12 should explain some of Mag's popularity.
| 39 | Pelipper | 5.61340% | 68896 | 7.046% | 62428 | 8.581% |
| 47 | Kingdra | 4.07374% | 45213 | 4.624% | 33038 | 4.541% |
Rain is good, guys. Helped out by OU's current #1 mon, Tapu Koko (after Aegislash ban) rain's boost is really a crazy part of the metagame right. I think I have yet to see the definitive rain team, but every time I see the pelican on the other side I definitely take it seriously.
| 55 | Tornadus-Therian | 2.63607% | 18202 | 1.862% | 13853 | 1.904% |
| 57 | Charizard-Mega-Y | 2.60763% | 34082 | 3.486% | 26101 | 3.588% |
| 59 | Keldeo | 2.42211% | 17648 | 1.805% | 12905 | 1.774% |
former OU staples that are in UU range at the moment. Keldeo definitely gained some new checks in Mantine and Toxapex, while the bulky teams that Tornadus-T was so good on seem to be losing to Gene/Pheromosa at the moment. Zard-Y tho is a surprise, with the decrease in usage of Latios and Latias I feel like he is pretty good right now, albeit a bit weak to Tapu Koko.
| 2 | Tapu Koko | 23.67374% | 205579 | 21.026% | 157571 | 21.659% |
| 3 | Pheromosa | 19.81851% | 185112 | 18.932% | 132002 | 18.144% |
| 4 | Landorus-Therian | 18.73396% | 110446 | 11.296% | 93666 | 12.875% |
| 7 | Genesect | 16.69058% | 80167 | 8.199% | 66293 | 9.112% |
V O L T T U R N
Any update on potential suspect tests for the "on the radar" pokes? At this point, we've watched them on the radar for what seems a millenium--flying closer and closer--neglected to fire--and now they've dropped their payloads atop our metagame. All that's left is a smoldering pile of ruin! Considering that Alola is based on Hawaii, Nintendo is a Japanese company, and the 75th aniversary of Pearl Harbor was yesterday, I entreat the OU council to act. The fate of the free world rests in your hands.
Where'd you get these usage stats?
| 5 | Toxapex | 18.12630% | 186532 | 19.078% | 141981 | 19.516% |
| 9 | Tapu Fini | 15.71056% | 90853 | 9.292% | 72716 | 9.995% |
| 16 | Heatran | 9.86634% | 69914 | 7.150% | 55813 | 7.672% |
| 23 | Skarmory | 7.72845% | 52155 | 5.334% | 42503 | 5.842% |
| 24 | Mantine | 7.62834% | 53199 | 5.441% | 41608 | 5.719% |
| 25 | Venusaur-Mega | 7.50924% | 47185 | 4.826% | 35835 | 4.926% |
| 28 | Chansey | 7.04993% | 39149 | 4.004% | 28895 | 3.972% |
| 30 | Charizard-Mega-X | 6.79198% | 56341 | 5.762% | 41186 | 5.661% |
| 34 | Clefable | 6.10793% | 41240 | 4.218% | 28500 | 3.917% |
| 38 | Sableye-Mega | 5.65683% | 28274 | 2.892% | 24106 | 3.313% |
| 51 | Hippowdon | 3.49224% | 34638 | 3.543% | 29024 | 3.989% |
| 66 | Amoonguss | 1.83539% | 12537 | 1.282% | 9254 | 1.272% |
| 68 | Tangrowth | 1.73388% | 13075 | 1.337% | 10018 | 1.377% |
| 71 | Decidueye | 1.64315% | 61627 | 6.303% | 44721 | 6.147% |
So I kinda always use Chansey as the baseline of what Stall's usage is on the ladder. Give some stall not using her as a cleric and take some wacky balance teams using chansey, it's normally a pretty good indication.
Obviously all mons listed outside like Mantine have other uses. But these are the mons I've found to be viable on stall that are in the first 75 or so. Overall it seems my own thought about Sableye are kinda showing up here: He's not as good as he was last gen, and it's not even close. Last gen his usage was consistently higher than any stall mon but Skarmory. The Tapus are CRUSHING him. Even if he can worry a few of them, those terrains need to be controlled and Sable lets the opponent control them.
I do think Toxapex is rather overrated, it's a bit too passive and I think Fini is better altogether. But you can't argue sheer bulk.
Venusaur-M is showing exactly as I expect it. He is REALLY good right now, like impossibly underrated even at 7.5% usage. Being able to prevent any tapu from coming in freely, countering 3 of four and countering rain is a stupidly powerful combination. Talonflame and burn being nerfed was a huge help, too. Core it with Tapu fini and a psychic and you've got a stupidly solid starting core.
I do think Mantine is the slightest bit overrated at 24. It may be artificially high right now to catch Pheromosa, but I wouldn't expect that to be the ending usage of it. Mid 40s would be my ending guess if Pheromosa gets banned. By no means is Mantine bad, it just happens to be pressured a bit too much in this U-turn/Volt Switch meta, and relying on it for defog under those conditions basically guarantees a 25% HP loss every defog attempt.
Clefable's gonna fall even more. That usage is super inflated by people holding on to ORAS values. Tapus should have completely chased out every role Clefable has and do it better, outside MG CM. Even then, I think Tapu Lele/Fini (Zmove refresh) may be better by the end.
Overall, even with the prediction that stall is gonna struggle being true, Stall certainly has the tools to take advantage to. Now applying it is the next step.
| 9 | Tapu Fini | 15.71056% | 90853 | 9.292% | 72716 | 9.995% |
| 16 | Heatran | 9.86634% | 69914 | 7.150% | 55813 | 7.672% |
| 23 | Skarmory | 7.72845% | 52155 | 5.334% | 42503 | 5.842% |
| 24 | Mantine | 7.62834% | 53199 | 5.441% | 41608 | 5.719% |
| 25 | Venusaur-Mega | 7.50924% | 47185 | 4.826% | 35835 | 4.926% |
| 28 | Chansey | 7.04993% | 39149 | 4.004% | 28895 | 3.972% |
| 30 | Charizard-Mega-X | 6.79198% | 56341 | 5.762% | 41186 | 5.661% |
| 34 | Clefable | 6.10793% | 41240 | 4.218% | 28500 | 3.917% |
| 38 | Sableye-Mega | 5.65683% | 28274 | 2.892% | 24106 | 3.313% |
| 51 | Hippowdon | 3.49224% | 34638 | 3.543% | 29024 | 3.989% |
| 66 | Amoonguss | 1.83539% | 12537 | 1.282% | 9254 | 1.272% |
| 68 | Tangrowth | 1.73388% | 13075 | 1.337% | 10018 | 1.377% |
| 71 | Decidueye | 1.64315% | 61627 | 6.303% | 44721 | 6.147% |
So I kinda always use Chansey as the baseline of what Stall's usage is on the ladder. Give some stall not using her as a cleric and take some wacky balance teams using chansey, it's normally a pretty good indication.
Obviously all mons listed outside like Mantine have other uses. But these are the mons I've found to be viable on stall that are in the first 75 or so. Overall it seems my own thought about Sableye are kinda showing up here: He's not as good as he was last gen, and it's not even close. Last gen his usage was consistently higher than any stall mon but Skarmory. The Tapus are CRUSHING him. Even if he can worry a few of them, those terrains need to be controlled and Sable lets the opponent control them.
I do think Toxapex is rather overrated, it's a bit too passive and I think Fini is better altogether. But you can't argue sheer bulk.
Venusaur-M is showing exactly as I expect it. He is REALLY good right now, like impossibly underrated even at 7.5% usage. Being able to prevent any tapu from coming in freely, countering 3 of four and countering rain is a stupidly powerful combination. Talonflame and burn being nerfed was a huge help, too. Core it with Tapu fini and a psychic and you've got a stupidly solid starting core.
I do think Mantine is the slightest bit overrated at 24. It may be artificially high right now to catch Pheromosa, but I wouldn't expect that to be the ending usage of it. Mid 40s would be my ending guess if Pheromosa gets banned. By no means is Mantine bad, it just happens to be pressured a bit too much in this U-turn/Volt Switch meta, and relying on it for defog under those conditions basically guarantees a 25% HP loss every defog attempt.
Clefable's gonna fall even more. That usage is super inflated by people holding on to ORAS values. Tapus should have completely chased out every role Clefable has and do it better, outside MG CM. Even then, I think Tapu Lele/Fini (Zmove refresh) may be better by the end.
Overall, even with the prediction that stall is gonna struggle being true, Stall certainly has the tools to take advantage to. Now applying it is the next step.
yeah much harder to use Mega Sableye right now...Tapus hurt it plus the mega change did it no favors. Stall in general takes a hit not just because of the burn/para nerfs but the fact that a lot more wallbreakers were introduced than actual walls.
I never subscribed to the stall using paralysis line of thought, so I haven't been bothered by that at all. Burn nerf hurts but especially in the case of regenerators, it makes status easier to sponge. Now stall should focus on hazard control and attacks over relying on status for damage, but that's sort of the norm anyways.
| 1 | Aegislash | 30.22708% | 173842 | 17.780% | 129367 | 17.782% |
| 2 | Tapu Koko | 23.67374% | 205579 | 21.026% | 157571 | 21.659% |
Aegislash was banned halfway through the life of the tier and is STILL the most used pokemon by a significant margin. And some people said it didn't deserve to be banned...
| 2 | Tapu Koko | 23.67374% | 205579 | 21.026% | 157571 | 21.659% |
Aegislash was banned halfway through the life of the tier and is STILL the most used pokemon by a significant margin. And some people said it didn't deserve to be banned...
You do realize this is just November right? lol Aegislash was banned on the 29th a whopping whole day before the month ended
Let me stop you right there. I don't know WHAT celesteela is, but it is certainly not a bird!
Marowak for me. He forces so many switches because a lot of things are threatened to be OHKO'd by Flare Blitz/Bonemerang/Shadow Bone, or it just walls them completely. I always get an opportunity to set up SR.
Ah, alright then. Just so that I have a bit of content in my post, I'm quite surprised that Fini is used more than Bulu. I didn't really check the thread much the past few weeks, but wasn't Fini generally agreed to be the worst Tapu?
Celesteela is clearly a Reaverbot. First shiny Chesnaught (Teisel Bonne), now Celesteela. We're gonna get a Mega Man Trigger lookalike in Gen 8.
See I thought this at first, then I started using it. Tapu Fini is hands down the best defogger in the tier right now.
It pretty much counters lead chomp and lead landorus-T, as well as annoying Marowak and Excadrill, the four best stealth rockers in the tier after Landorus-I. Its ability means it won't even get toxic'd on the switch, which is great against more passive hazard setters. Not only that, but STAB moonblast is great against MSableye and Surf does a good chunk to a lot of top mons right now.
With enough bulk, it can check tapu lele, pheromosa, genesect without thunderbolt, survive getting trapped by dugtrio, and its terrain is great support for teammates. Give it a try and you might be surprised how splashable it is, covers so many roles and just generally makes teambuilding a lot easier!
I'm having so much fun with a defensive core of physically defensive Vileplume and specially defensive Mantine. Nobody ever suspects Effect Spore Vileplume taking hits and dishing out status, Sleep Powder, Moonblast and powerful STAB attacks and ruining teams. The pair manage to cover each other's weaknesses and check most offensive threats.
If you want absolute perfect coverage, add Bisharp to resist Psychic/Rock/Ghost/Dark/Normal/Dragon attacks. The three together are incredible.
If you want absolute perfect coverage, add Bisharp to resist Psychic/Rock/Ghost/Dark/Normal/Dragon attacks. The three together are incredible.
So everyone is obviously aware of Pheromosa's effects on the metagame, but I think people are also starting to realize just how devastatingly powerful Celesteela is as well. I mean damn... Celesteela is without a doubt one of the best Pokemon in the current metagame. If you don't have hard checks, you lose. Notice how I said checks, instead of counters, because fully countering it is pretty much impossible. Leech Seed is beaten by Grass-types, and Grass-types get burnt to a crisp by Flamethrower / Fire Blast. Protect + Leech Seed is shaving off a good chunk of the poor Pokemon that tries to switch in on it, and God help you if the Celesteela user has hazards up. So yeah... dealing with this Pokemon is a huge pain, lol.
Aside from that, there are a few new interesting trends. More and more players are making use out of Z-moves. Heatran's pretty much all carry Bloom Doom now, and set up sweepers are using Z-moves to punch their way through their counters. You don't know true injustice until you've had victory snatched from you as a result Azumarill Z-belly drumming.
There's this annoying stall team archetype going around lately. It's Dugtrio + Toxapex + who cares, and Toxapex has Eject Button which easily lets the stallplayer trap your stallbreaker. It's so dirty, lmao.
All in all the Gen VII metagame is still this unbridled, chaotic mess. Frequently switching between the funnest format ever, to the absolute worst. It's gonna be a long while before things settle down, haha.
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INSANE CARZY GUY
Banned deucer.
ditto+mega sabeye is an awesome stall option, nearly wanna say having lum berry is the way to go
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-493034310
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-493034310
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