Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread

[Muksu]

I've been playing and spectating the meta and to be honest I've had lots of fun with dynamax.

Dynamax is an interesting new game mechanic that adds an extra layer of power to battles. Since you can dynamax a mon basically at any moment you really have to think about the best possible situation to do so while taking the opponent's dynamax gameplan into account as well. Many mons can find an opportunity to viably dynamax which leads to interesting choices and matches.

There are different kinds of ways to utilize dynamax:

Offensive dynamax: When the situation looks promising you can just dynamax a mon and keep firing powerful attacks for the duration of the effect. Most mons can do this and it can provide just enough extra power needed to win a game.

Defensive dynamax: Dynamax can be used defensively by allowing your mon to tank a hit that it couldn't take otherwise. This is a great way to stop a mon that threatens your team or is problematic otherwise but dynamax is such a powerful resource that it should be used to cause as much damage as possible.

Dynamax sweepers: Dynamax sweepers are the real deal. They can use a setup move before dynamaxing and then start spamming insanely powerful max moves while also getting extra bulk to survive many hits. Or they can boost stats or set helpful weather/terrain via the additional effects of max moves. Or setup with regular setup moves first and then with max move effects.
Like traditional sweepers they do have counterplay. They need to find an opportunity to set up without getting killed or crippled by something like paralysis and certain mons can stop their sweep, especially ones that are dynamaxed as well. The counterplay is often quite limited though as certain sweepers have potential to be so ridiculously powerful that they can break through entire teams or cripple them extremely, sometimes even very early in the match. This makes the metagame circle around dynamax sweepers quite a lot.

To summarize: Dynamax is epic and I love it. But dynamax sweepers being too strong is a valid concern for the metagame and its development.

 

[Altariel von Sweep]

Dynamax has to go. The fact that some Pokemon that went under the radar last gen such as Woobat, Vullaby and Rufflet, as well as newfound threats such as weather autosetters in Mantyke and setup sweepers like Galarian Farfetch'd clarifies that the problem is not found within these Pokemon's abilities, but in Dynamax itself. To support that, I am going to go on about the Dynamax users that I feel are a really big menace to the well-being of the metagame:

Galarian Farfetch'd

Galarian Farfetch'd is one of the hardest Pokemon to check currently in the metagame, and with Dynamax, its capabilities only seem to increase to a point where even Spritzee is unable to keep it away from cleaning teams. The set to use is Swords Dance, where Close Combat and Brave Bird play important roles in the success of GFetch'd. Although Dynamax Fighting moves that are over 100 BP are only able to reach 100 BP as maximum, it boostthe user's Attack once used. The situation gets worse when coupled with Max Airstream, beating other Farfetch'd and raising Speed in a stage on top of that, which means that many of the common revenge killers will have a lot of problems to handle it. Some calcs to have in mind are the next ones:

+2 236 Atk Farfetch'd Brave Bird vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 14-17 (51.8 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 236 Atk Farfetch'd Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Vullaby: 27-33 (117.3 - 143.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Max Fighting)

Rufflet

Rufflet has gotten an insane buff this gen with the inclusion of Close Combat, but when Dynamaxized, Hustle boosted attacks are always accurate, meaning that this monster will hit with powerful Max Airstreams coming from a 27 Attack stat while boosting its Speed, as well as boost its Attack each time it uses Max Fighting. Considering all of this, running bulky Roost sets with 25/14/14 bulk makes it stupidly hard to manage thanks to the HP boost coupled to its raw bulk, so it can start boosting with literally no problems. After boosting, you have now a really strong attacker that will only need to remove Onix to go wild.

Vullaby

Yes, my friends. In a same fashion as its counterpart, Vullaby is able to take a really big advantage of the added bulk of Dynamax when used with Nasty Plot sets, being able to tank almost any physical move and then use Max Airstream to boost its Speed further or Max Dark to remove annoying Pokemon such as Onix in a single blow. Of course, Nasty Plot teams work best with Dynamax, but Rock Smash sets are also incredibly stupid, boosting in the same fashion its Attack and firing off strong physical Max Airstreams to get rid of stuff such as Spritzee at +1 after Stealth Rock, or even being able to hit Pawniard with no fear with Max Fighting and use it as setup fodder.

Wingull and Mantyke

What they have in common to be listed in a single point is that both can summon rain thanks to Max Water to their own benefit, as well as muscle through Pawniard and Spritzee with ease. Wingull having a really strong Max Airstream coupled with a great Speed and Max Water allow it to be a bigger threat than before. I do not think I need to explain further, but Hurricane getting boosted means that not even Spritzee can switchin and take it as its an easy 2HKO after Stealth Rock. Pawniard has a much harder time checking it thanks to the rain summoned by Max Water and the fact that it can 2HKO. With that in mind, it can beat anything by itself and gets better with some hazard support.

Now, onto the most important point. Why the heck has Mantyke not been even mentioned throughout this whole Dynamax convo, when it is probably the most annoying Dynamax Pokemon to face if used correctly? Mantyke has really good special bulk to boast, and in combination with the HP boost to increase its bulk, using its powerful Max Water based on Hydro Pump allows to net the OHKO on Pawniard easily and summon Rain to its own benefit, doubling its Speed and becoming the most annoying Rain sweeper in the metagame. To add salt in the bruise, Max Water boosted under rain is able to even net the OHKO on Spritzee and 2HKO resists effortlessly, and it can use Max Airstream to boost its Speed before the last Dynamax turn ends so it can keep being threatening with a Speed boost.

And last, but not least:

Woobat

I have nothing else to add, I support everyone's points showcasing how Woobat is an insane Dynamax user thanks to Simple Nasty Plot giving a +4 Special Boost and +2 Speed boost each time Max Airstream is used. On top of that, it secures the OHKO on threats like Vullaby and Spritzee after Stealth Rock, as well as blast Onix in a single blow with Stored Power. Although it has a hard time setting up, Dynamax just makes up for it in an exponentially greater way than it is supposed to.

What I can tell is that if Dynamax sweepers are going to roam in the metagame, banning all of them is just futile. We have to elinminate the problem from the roots in order for the metagame to grow in a more healthy way. That means, that I am in favor of prohibiting Dynamax.

 

[Funbot28]

Dynamax is dumb broke and everyone kinda summed up my thoughts on it already lol. LC just can't abuse the defensive attributes of it compared to other tiers due the more offensive nature of the metagame due to the leveling and it just skews too much of a favor for sweepers such as NP Vull, Woobat, Farfetch'd-G, and many other mons to make me believe the mechanic itself is at fault here. I was initially hesitant and wanted to marinate on the idea of letting it stay a bit longer, but each day we let dmax stay in this tier is giving another potentially broken setup sweeper to demonstrate the rudimentary fact that the mechanic is just too OP for the tier. Ban Dynamaxing ASAP.

my ladder journey

Now moving on to teams I have been having fun with and getting number 1 on ladder with before people began to snipe me :>

Natu Screens

So I built Veil team before the A-Vuplix glitch was hotpatched but decided to keep the same framework of the team and just replaced Vulpix with Screens Natu (which is dope might i add to dissuade Defog Timburr which was being annoying). Rest of the team is straightforward. Dwebble sets hazards, Onix takes advantage of its new access to Ddance + Head Smash to dick most of the metagame safe from hard counters like Mudbray, NP Vull is nothing new (and probs the most broken Dmax abuser imo). Pawn, while nerfed, still offers a lot of value as a secondary Gastly check and general annoyance to common defensive cores such as FerroSpritz and can help check other offensive threats via priority. Sinistea is another interesting mon that I feel we should keep our eyes on as it has the potential to be an amazing threat once Dmax goes (at least Vull hard checks it). Ye this team is broke with Dmax still allowed and got me most of my wins so ye.

Trapinch + Gastly Bulky Offense

A less cheese team, but still one that offered me a lot of success. Trapinch is high-key rlly good right now and is way ahead better then it's competition Diglett. Having access to First Impression enables it to rkill so many faster threats thanks to it's amazing power or just break holes in opposing teams thanks to EdgeQuake + Giga being dope coverage. Ferro + Mareanie is a dope defensive backbone as well esp since no Z-moves and Hidden Power can make maneuvering these two mons a bit easier (but shit like NP Vull + dmax is a pain). Gaslty + NP Vull pressure a ton of defensive walls, enabling scarf Farfetch'd-G ample opportunities to clean lategame.

Hope people have fun with this teams (at least the second one after Dmax goes hopefully). Despite my gripes with some mons (cough cough Gothita cough cough), been really liking SS LC overall. Excited for whats to come!

 

[Berks]

I believe Dynamaxing is overall an unhealthy mechanic, especially in the context of current LC. We just don’t have enough defensive presence to counteract the offensive capabilities of Dynamax. Even if we did, you can’t phaze them out with moves like Dragon Tail or Roar, and they can’t be flinched either. The mechanic itself was just made in a way to be overpowered and it just doesn’t work in Smogon tiers (LC in particular). There’s just too much offensive power already and adding insult to injury definitely doesn’t help. If certain Dynamax moves didn’t boost Attack or Speed my opinion might change, but it just makes things like Vullaby and Woobat just stupidly powerful, so I think it would be in the best interest of the tier for Dynamax to go.

I firmly believe that even if Dynamaxing itself is not broken, then it breaks a large enough number of Pokemon that it becomes more desirable to ban the mechanic than to remove so many Pokemon from the metagame. Part of this, compared to OU, is that moves just flat out do more damage percentagewise at level 5 - even when you factor in Eviolite.

252 SpA Chinchou Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Mantyke: 28-36 (133.3 - 171.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Chinchou Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mantyke: 300-352 (129.8 - 152.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Chinchou Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Mantyke: 204-240 (88.3 - 103.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

This means both the offensive and defensive potential of Dynamax drastically shifts in LC compared to OU - Dynamax is offensively more potent in LC while it's defensively less strong, making one of the commonly brought up ideas in the PR thread of using your own dynamax to counter enemy dynamaxes less feasible, as such options are liable to just end up being OHKOed or 2HKOed by the enemy dynamax Pokemon.

This doesn't mean the defensive side effects of Dynamax aren't potent in their own right. OHKOing a dynamaxed Pokemon is hard, and in turn gives more opportunity to the opponent to bring the offensive might of their dynamaxed mon to bear and begin to snowball over the enemy team.

Some people might try to compare Dynamax to Z moves from last gen, and honestly this is fairly accurate in my eyes. However, the issue is that Dynamax isn't comparable to things like Z Earthquake or Z Brave Bird. Instead, it's Z Conversion, a single opportunity to set up and steamroll the opponent's team with boosted bulk (though thankfully only temporarily but to an even greater extent that Porygon offered) and boosted moves. Even from the first turn of Dynamax, a huge number of moves are looking at nearly a 50% increase in base power, and a well planned Dynamax won't stop there but will continue to press this advantage by boosting sweeping potential further through either the raw effect of the Max Move (Poison/Fighting/Flying) or will support themselves even further through field effects (weather/terrain).

After having done a number of test games, I have to say that Dynamax is at the absolute least an incredibly centralizing mechanic, as very few games have not ultimately revolved around which player got a chance to abuse Dynamax better.

I think I've already annoyed Quote with my insistence that LC is unable to deal with dmax, more so than any other tier may be able to. The stat compression that makes LC so different leaves us with limited options. The level 5 states make everything disproportionately strong and unfortunately leaves most Pokemon with shallow defenses and limited HP. Dmax effectively exploits this, making the middling defensive capabilities of the tier shamefully incapable of managing. Even with the ability to try and defensively utilize dmax to prevent an opposing steamroll, the offensive capabilities of the tier are too much for this yet too little too in any way punish an opposing dmax Pokemon.

While I never got around to this, I was going to present a large group of "uncompetitive/broken/get this out of the tier" pokemon that would probably be fair game if not for dmax mechanics. Scraggy, Vullaby, Woobat, Rufflet, and G-Farfetch'd are unquestionably broken when dmaxed, with Gastly and Wingull being not too far behind for many. I haven't even wanted to test with Oddish, Corphish, or Dewpider because while these are probably also broken in combination with dmax, the aforementioned group has little to no downsides. I genuinely do not think this tier has credibility with dmax around as it just suffocates all other options, and honestly seems to diminish most impacts of skill.

Dmax does not add anything to the tier. There are no restrictions or choice which must be considered prior to the match. Instead, it focuses on short term interactions and stacking a select few Pokemon on teams in order to actually have some counterplay against what little we have discovered now. There is little which dissuades me from advocating for its removal from LC, even if it is the generational gimmick. I feel that the interactions of the tier with dmax are entirely apparent as negative to anyone paying attention, and removing dmax does not openly conflict with stated goals of tiering policy.

it is bad, get it out!

then we can start actually developing a metagame!

 

[Stoward]

While we’re on the subject of broken things and everyone seems to be unanimous about banning Dynamax, can we take a moment to talk about trapping? Mostly talking about Gothita here, but Trapinch and Digglet also fit the same “uncompetitive” category.

Trapping abilities such as Shadow tag is something that has been considered to be uncompetitive (see this, this, and 987 other policy review threads that show up every new gen). With Pursuit being removed, I can’t really see many drawbacks to using Gothita to trap and remove threats. I’ve only personally experienced a couple of gothitas, one got overwhelmed by Dynamax and then one trapped my Timburr and but if when Dynamax goes, I can only see Gothita getting worse to deal with, where it does the same sort of teambuilding limiting/playstyle invalidating stuff that it’s done every other gen.

Should also note that I’ve actually had a lot of fun with LC. Started playing this tier because I found the thought of giant baby Pokémon to be amusing, but honestly it’s been a lot of fun and I’d look forward to seeing this tier develop further.

 

[Evan.]

despite dynamaxing being an absurd mechanic that should absolutely be removed as soon as possible (as outlined in the multitude of posts above) ive really enjoyed playing lc this gen and had a lot of fun working my way up to the top of the ladder. that being said, i want to drop some thoughts and maybe spark some discussion on some non-dmax things that might become points of interest once the mechanic is (hopefully) removed from the tier.

sinistea: this mon has felt really underwhelming to me so far, i saw that a lot of ppl were hyping it up pre-release on being the next broken thing but in both using it and facing it, it just feels like its tough to get in or even fit on a team in the first place. that could be just my own bias b/c ive seen a lot of teams running around with / been using teams with vull / pawn + another fat pkmn b/c of how scary gastly is, or maybe its just the dynamax effect in it being tougher to set up. im interested to see how different sinisteams (haha) look once the metas settled down a bit

onix: despite being hyped up like nothing else before release, its crazy how few of them ive seen, especially considering that theoretically, it should be one of the better dynamax users in the tier (hp buff on top of massive defense, DD + body press for max knuckle / rock stab sets sand to boost spdef and ground stab straight up boosts spdef). i would guess that the fact that every relevant d-fly user is carrying coverage against it + the omnipresence of pinch rn are the 2 main factors, but it was still kind of a shock to me that i didnt see any at all and id be interested to see if its usage goes up once dmax is gone, or if its solely a "trapinch is incredible" thing and it still stays in obscurity

those are the main two i mainly wanted to talk about but some quick others are the absurdity that is goth (the charm set is absolutely nuts and a pain to play against every time), corphish being incredibly good right now and the lack of roost / hidden power on cutie sets really makes it seem underwhelming in the games ive played at least (i can see it being a terror vs more offensive teams).

regardless, i really enjoy lc this gen and im looking forward to seeing (and hopefully participating in) the upcoming ekans draft and how it plays out as well as how that leads into spl (new metas often develop extremely quickly in a tournament environment!). ill also drop the team i mainly used to ladder up (i did play a few games with some oddish + corphish sauce but i think this ones more solid) in the hopes that people more experienced than myself can maybe improve on it!

 

[Corporal Levi]

I think that keeping Dynamax (and banning its broken users instead) has much more merit than we're giving it credit for.

With that being said, I am leaning toward a Dynamax ban on the grounds that there is a good chance that we won't have enough time to fully balance a Dynamax metagame. Looking at the past three gens, which are the gens where we've had enough of a playerbase to properly develop the metagame, the fact that for SM, we failed to provide suspects for two threats that a large portion of the community considered broken (Vullaby and Sticky Web) due to time constraints leaves a poor taste in my mouth, and BW arguably ended in an even worse state than SM. XY was the only gen where the tier ended in a relatively balanced + diverse state, and even then there have been some complaints about Diglett and Gothita. Dynamax is a radical new mechanic that will take time for us to fully adapt to, this being on top of how different the pool of mons is from SM. As it is, I would rather lead a less interesting but more balanced metagame than a metagame with an interesting new mechanic that may still be unbalanced by the time gen 9 rolls around.

I do not agree with the claims that it offers nothing to competitive play, is fundamentally broken, etc. Dynamax is a completely new mechanic that isn't attached to any previous mechanics the way Z-moves were just items; we have abilities, items, and now Dynamax. The major differences are that a) it's an in-battle effect rather than a teambuilding addition, which I don't think matters from a tiering policy perspective; and b) it's more likely to cause mons to be overcentralizing because it pronounces their strengths more than, say, items would. This doesn't mean that it's inherently broken; it's a well-defined mechanic that both players are fully aware of and have access to. As a brand new mechanic that functions independently of other mechanics, Dynamax adds a completely separate layer to mons that fundamentally changes the game we play; this is surely not a meaningless addition. It's a mechanic that we're not as used to, but I don't think this should be a factor beyond the time constraints it imposes towards reaching a balanced metagame.

Being a separate mechanic means that Dynamax should be treated as such. Any mon becomes dramatically more effective once Dynamaxed, whether it's Diglett or Spritzee, to the point where they could temporarily be seen as being worth as much as, say, 2-3 regular mons, which would put Dynamax at 1-2 mons in value. This would mean that losing 2 mons to bring down 1 Dynamax mon would be a reasonable trade. (These are not exact values - Dynamax is a dynamic mechanic that won't have the same effect every game.) In the same vein, Eviolite or Berry Juice allows an LC mon to be much more valuable than its itemless counterpart. Of course, Dynamax benefits its mon to a much greater degree than any item could, and its opportunity cost is accordingly much larger as well; you can only Dynamax once on one mon, where all six of your mons can run items.

Then there will be cases where a mon benefits from Dynamax to a much greater degree than other mons would. Let's say that Woobat goes from being worth 1 mon without Dynamax to 5 mons with Dynamax because it's that good at sweeping. Most mons would be nowhere near this capable of abusing Dynamax; this would be a case of Woobat being broken, because we tier mons, and Woobat the mon abuses a mechanic (Dynamax) to a broken degree. Think of how, in SM, Porygon alone abuses the item Normalium-Z to a broken extent with Conversion. (It could also be seen as a case of Max Airstream being broken, but I'm not sure how that would work)

In an ideal world where we wouldn't have issues with time (such as if old gen LC had an active enough playerbase to continue developing the metagame), I would lean towards maintaining Dynamax and trying to ban the threats that abuse it to a broken extent instead. Given that time constraints do exist, whether it would be feasible or possible to produce a balanced Dynamax metagame is up for debate. However, given the off chance that we are able to successfully develop a Dynamax meta, I think that we could potentially look into trying to do so on the side if enough interest exists.

tl;dr keeping Dynamax and banning its broken users should be the ideal move, but might not be realistic to carry out

 

[trash]

Hello, I don’t usually do this type of post, but I would like this gen to not be as horrible as gen7. When Dynamax first came on beta, I thought this was the most broken mechanic ever. Then the fixes came (choice items not working when Dynamax’d and the correct base power) and realized that this isn’t that broken. There are some flat-out broken mons like G-Farfetch’d and Vullaby when combined with Dynamax.

First, I would like to share my opinions on the people’s thought on why this mechanic may be broken.

We just don’t have enough defensive presence to counteract the offensive capabilities of Dynamax.

This is just wrong. Mostly every mon in this tier possess a defensive presence due to Eviolite or Berry Juice. They may not allow stall like level 100 stats but they fit well into the fast paced LC meta. Those items combined with Dynamax creates both a defensive and offensive ability to counteract opposing Dynamax’d mons.

I have to say that Dynamax is at the absolute least an incredibly centralizing mechanic, as very few games have not ultimately revolved around which player got a chance to abuse Dynamax better.

In my experience, most of my games did not revolve on who abused Dynamax better. I used my own Dynamax defensively/reactively most of the time and still won. Maybe its because of getting used on how/when to use Dynamax and teambuilding (I’ll get to this later). Dynamax takes skill during the game because you can’t just set up turn 1 and just win. Players still need to plan out how to win with “x” and use “y” to break for “x.” This mechanic allows players to do so easier or have a way out for certain threats and because of this I find it healthy for the current metagame. Sure, Dynamax is centralizing. Having a metagame centralized on a mechanic is not a bad thing. We currently have the tier for the past 4 generations (including this one) centralized around items like Eviolite and Berry Juice (only 3 gen). These mechanics, items and Dynamax, influence players how to play and react accordingly. I believe we still need time to see if this Dynamax is broken or if certain mons abusing it is broken.

I genuinely do not think this tier has credibility with dmax around as it just suffocates all other options, and honestly seems to diminish most impacts of skill. Dmax does not add anything to the tier. There are no restrictions or choice which must be considered prior to the match. Instead, it focuses on short term interactions and stacking a select few Pokemon on teams in order to actually have some counterplay against what little we have discovered now.

I have found this meta way more skillful than SM. This mechanic forced me to think many turns ahead rather than just 5-7, and I would like to know your reasoning behind this. Dynamax does add something to the tier such as creative options on planning the game, using it either offensively to break for another mon or defensively to help your team check threats. I am unsure what you mean on “focuses on short term interactions.” If you meant how using Dynamax, I’ve discussed it above on centralization. And for the second part of the sentence, this could be said for the opposing side. We also can continue discovering counterplay against offensive Dynamaxing.

So my opinion on dynamax is like this rn: It's a retarded mechanic which is stupidly broken for LC (and higher tiers ofc), the fact that your HP doubles coupled with setup sweepers is just dumb af

I can see this mechanic being more broken in lv 100 tiers, but not in LC currently. Offensively Dynamax is better, but defensively it still is insanely good because of having your HP doubled. Out of all the setup sweepers you listed, I only have had issues with G-Farfetch’d, Vullaby, and Ponyta. Setup sweepers are indeed extremely strong with Dynamax, but there are only some that I feel are absurdly broken. I’ve said this many times and cannot stress this enough, using your Dynamax defensively is also an option!

The fact that some Pokemon that went under the radar last gen such as Woobat, Vullaby and Rufflet, as well as newfound threats such as weather autosetters in Mantyke and setup sweepers like Galarian Farfetch'd clarifies that the problem is not found within these Pokemon's abilities, but in Dynamax itself.

Ok first of all Vullaby and Rufflet were not under the radar last gen and Woobat also did not have Nasty Plot. Mantyke from my experience is not good and obviously G-Farfetch’d is insanely broken with Dynamax. The problem isn’t Dynamax, but the mons. G-Farfetch’d (without Dynamax) can easily beak through its defensive “checks” and the only real way to stop it is either defensive Dynamax or faster mon that OHKOs it. Vullaby is Vullaby. We know what it does and how dumb of a mon it is without Dynamax and with several mons changing sets/moves this makes it even better than before. Banning Dynamax won’t fix the tier, it’ll just make it worse. Trapping will be far beyond broken, G-Farfetch’d is still going to be an issue, Vullaby will always be an issue, Gastly is dumb as balls with or without Dynamax. Yea let’s just ban Dynamax and still ban more than 5 mons! The meta would improve significantly without G-Farfetch’d and Vullaby, if we keep Dynamax.

I've shared my opinions on some thoughts posted in the thread on why they think Dynamax is “broken.” And I would like to talk about the teambuilding aspect.
From Funbot28’s post:



I do not understand how people say Dynamax is broken and build teams that straight up lose to Vullaby or G-Farfetch’d. I am not specifically calling out Funbot28, but people I have faced in ladder or friendless. This is basically calling LO Abra broken and building a team with nothing faster than it and no resists. Dynamax is a mechanic where you need to have in mind when building a team, not just offensively. Yes, you need ways to deal with Dynamax. No, building a team around setup sweepers and trying to setup before they do is not a way to beat it. It truly makes me wonder if players are just complaining because they don’t understand teambuilding with Dynamax and playing with it. This is why we really need more time with Dynamax instead of just banning it.


This is just a picture of a team I have used to ladder with great success. Yes, you don’t need to use broken dynamax abusers to win games. G-Ponyta and Gastly are extremely good, Gastly being the only one that may be broken.

This is just a new mechanic that is introduced. Items were introduced in gen2 and changed the game. Abilities were introduced in gen3 and changed the game. Certain items extremely well with certain mons or even make it broken, this goes for abilities too. And coincidentally this is the same for Dynamax! Dynamax is a mechanic where you have three turns of 2x HP and max moves once a battle and both players can use it. Abilities and items are similar, instead you have them permanently (unless knocked off for items). We had metas around mons being strong and oppressing because of the combinations of stats, abilities and items. So, what is the difference with Dynamax? Unpredictability? Unhealthy? Dynamax is once a battle rather than the whole battle long. It is just a new mechanic that we are not used too.

The only exposure we had with Dynamax are friendlies and ladder. I believe that we should continue with a Dynamax meta in tfard ekans to have a more competitive view on Dynamax. And use this as a way to balance out the meta, if possible, with Dynamax. We should continue deciding if the mechanic itself is broken or if certain mons make it broken. Right now, I am leaning on certain mons make it broken. And start banning mons that are broken with Dynamax, such as G-Farfetch’d and Vullaby, and ban other threats that pops up. However, if there are too many mons broken with the combination of Dynamax, then we should revert those bans and ban Dynamax. I really don’t think this is the case, but I can be wrong as the meta is still too new.

Please don’t be rash and ban this so early, I would like the council to take it slowly.

 

[SquibbyJ]

All y'all missing out.

Body Press Onix is a threat in OU.

Legit, 40 attack, 16 speed, no set up. If you don't have special coverage faster than it, it can take check a lot of pokes, even when max'd.

 

[Shrug]

i think trash makes interesting points we ought to take seriously. it is very possible that we are, for want of a better term, being lazy about this -- not fully considering the potential counterplays to dynamax that would create a new and interesting metagame interaction. in a strange way i was reminded of my old drum of free trapinch way back two weeks ago in gen 7. basically, in my eyes, the trapinch ban was an example of complacent thinking among teambuilders. each and every sr user had a check to the main trapinch set (onix could run fille onix or, underratedly, just boom and rely on team pressure for vulla; tirt could run the double water [liquidation / jet] set w knock; pawn could run the luthier max ada and get v favorable rolls with knock / ihead) and nothing was really made unviable. it helped teambuilding by opening up new combinations of attackers and different paths to victory and it helped reward in-battle skill by making more risky the presumed god-given right of lcers to hard in the counter to a given pokemon 8-15 times per game. dyna might be much the same: by banning it quickly we could be neglecting innovations that help stop given powerful dynamaxers in a false and pernicious effort to keep games as close to "click the counter" as possible. in the same vein we could be disincentivizing aggressive play by reducing the reward you get from pushing your advantages in the early game. maybe baiting out a defensive dynamax is just compensation for dominating the early game.

but there are a few key differences. dynamax doesnt really have an opportunity cost. if you trapped something with trapinch, you left trapinch on the field. you could punish this with snivy especially or things like corph and star -- even saccing pinch to a water created problems further down in the team structure. the only disadvantage to dynamaxing is that you cannot dynamax any more. maybe this is a skill thing, forcing players to use it wisely, but i think the difference comes in that the ability to do it from anywhere shapes patterns of relation between pokemon. that sounds strange, but basically what i mean is: when the powerful threat is a a pokemon (including things like z-moves which would simply be a variant of a pokemon, as in z-gastly is a different threat to prepare for than lo gast, but theyre both pokemon) you can structure your game around dealing with that pokemon in relation to its teammates. if you're afraid of trapinch trapping your pawn, you can work on chipping the vullaby so that when that trap does happen snivy is in position to 2hko or set up a future 2hko. the fact that any pokemon can dynamax disrupts this balance. if in your game dyna-pony, dyna-onix, and dyna-rufflet are all threats in different ways, there's no way to play yourself into a spot where you're punishing instead of reacting. the balance shifts towards offense -- the ability to use it offensively is really the key, while using it defensively is more of a bailout mechanism for a certain type of team. that may keep them viable, but never viable in a way that allows them to get off the back foot either in a game or in the meta.

a problem made worse by the necessary bans. in offensive metas vulla takes on a glue role both actively and by dissuading. why the "ban vulla" calls happened after pinch left is because in a reactive meta vulla can tear teams apart while in an attacking meta it's forced in reserve to stop threats and provide the potential for big counterdamage against knock-heavy opposition. dyna staying means vulla has to go flat out. i dont think anyone thinks the two can coexist. this goes for other interesting mons that are probably not broken in a dyna-free meta but certainly have to go if it stays. this is g-fetched and the like. add in the things that seem p probably broken with dyna and almost certainly not without: scraggy, onix, g-pony, rufflet. get rid of these mons and you lose a huge chunk of the non-dyna meta right there, which may cause downstream effects for dyna bans as well. gastly suddenly is a power level apart from all remaining mons, there's no check to flying types at all (if any are left) and so on. wed basically have created ORAS sans fletch and any 18 or 19 speed attackers and possibly the trappers too, with the inclusion of a mega-powerful mon for three turns every game. i dont think that's as desirable as finding a metagame balanced at the higher power level presented by the mons dyna would rule out.

so in short: ban the mech. let powerful attackers roam free, and let defensive cores settle around threats that everyone knows are coming. there should be enough long-term thinking, esp if we find it in our brains to save the trappers, to make this the best lc meta weve seen.

 

[Kingler]

The problem with dynamax is it isn't limited to enhancing one pokemon or one move, it can make like 10 moves on your team better; you can have multiple dynamax abusers and either one can sweep a team on a moment's notice. Ponyta-Galar with dynamax gives us pretty much a watered down LC version of Tapu Lele, which is kind of ridiculous to think about tbh (with CM and decent bulk too?). I think that dynamax should be given a fair shot, but from my impressions of it there's no way this seems healthy enough to contort our entire metagame around.

 

[Druddigoner]

I am in complete agreement with trash on this issue. When Dynamax first came out, I've ranted and raved about it, calling it broken and unhealthy and all that shit. However, after playing with the meta since day one, even through the rough times of Corsola, I really cannot agree that Dynamax should be banned, at least not without more thought. The meta is still very new, trash and Levi both make good points that Dynamax is a new mechanic that will take time to adapt to, and further, I think it will quite possibly be one to not judge so quickly.

Counterplay to Dynamax sweepers is something I haven’t seen baked into many teams currently, and, at least to me, it seems that many people I face on the ladder just lose the hazard game and are then primed to lose to Dynamax sweepers. Defensive counterplay to Dynamax exists, and it seems most people are hesitant to use Dynamax as a defensive tool (Hello Max Guard, which completely blocks even max moves). Offensively, stronger scarfed mons and those with good priority are able to defeat Dynamax users once the additional bulk is gone (even sometimes while with the bulk) with a few exceptions, which I will enter later. Dynamax influences the outcome of games, yes, and maybe even it’s centraliazing, but as trash said, centralising isn’t a bad thing, and really, what kind of metagame isn’t at least somewhat centralized. And to honestly see if Dynamax is overcentralizing rather than centralizing, we’re going to need time. I would argue that Dynamax has only things to add to the tier rather than take something away, it adds a layer of complexity to the tier similar to Z-Moves before and Megas in higher tiers.

It’s argued that Dynamax makes good mons broken, which to a certain extent I can agree with, except for that its not all Dynamax pokemon are created quite so broken. Galarian Farfetch’d, Vullaby and maybe to a certain extent Rufflet are great examples of Pokemon the tier either can’t handle or chooses not to. Many other Pokemon that are described as too good are for the most part untrue, and the tier is definitely choosing not to. Woobat, Scraggy, G-Pony, Gastly, Mantyke, Onix and Wingull are just not on the same level as those mentioned previously. I won’t go into teambuilding as much, because trash covered this really well. Again, I’ll stress that a meta needs time to adapt to a new mechanic. A tour will be a much better and more competitive way to look at the tier with Dynamax rather than purely ladder and friendlies. I wholeheartedly believe that it is the Pokemon making Dynamax broken, and we should look into getting rid of the Pokemon rather than the mechanic. As trash said, if there are too many Pokemon broken with Dynamax, the decision can revert the bans and get rid of Dynamax, but once Dynamax is gone, people will not look back at it, and it may possibly be looked back at as another decision made too hastily.

In response to Shrug and Kingler:
The loss of your Dynamax is a huge drawback, as you not only lose potentially your wincon, but you also weaken yourself to the opposing Dynamax. As trash said, plenty of games don't need to come down to Dynamax and as both trash and myself have said, you can build to prevent yourself from losing to Dynamax. Dynamax encourages a higher skill environment for the most part, forcing each player to consider when they will use Dynamax and how they will stop an opposing teams Dynamax, I for one find this exhilarating. With reference to the pokemon you said would need to be banned, Vullaby and Galarian Farfetch'd will likely go regardless of the loss of Dynamax, Farf is incredibly strong, breaking through "counters" even without Dynamax, while Vullaby is increasingly meta defining, more so than last gen, even without its Dynamax sweeping potential. Other than Rufflet, as I've said earlier most of these pokemon simply don't compete. I will reiterate, not all Dynamax sweepers are made equal. Only very few have the full deal of being able to setup safely, and continue on to sweep afterwards, either from a lack of staying power, regular power or speed. Even these broken sweepers have defensive counter play through, put simply... USING YOUR OWN DYNAMAX WITH MAX GUARD! This fully blocks the boosted move and cancels the secondary. Focus Sash, Priority and Hazards are your friends. Good scarfers are your friends. Building teams that lose to Dynamax sweepers and then saying that Dynamax is broken is not the way a group of competitive players should behave.

TLDR: Dynamax is something that currently I cannot say is unhealthy. Play and prepare against Dynamax poorly you will lose. It's the same with any other thing you've dealt with before. Let’s give it more time before we wildly swing our hammer, seriously.

 

[Kingler]

The problem arises in this case Druddigoner that, say, a cm Ponyta can use dynamax psy move whenever it'd like; especially if the boosted move would kill the opposing Mon, not losing momentum means dynamaxing yourself. What if I CM on magic guard instead? The problem is the defensively dynamaxing pokemon in this case HAS to pose some sort of an offensive threat. I'm using pony as an example, but we can use gastly with its ridiculous coverage and power (hard not to get OHKOed by). Defensive dynamax just isn't as good, because it's reactive to offensive dynamax, you need to predict the opposing dynamax (or dynamax before the opposing Mon does so), and for defensive mons like ferro you're not posing a great offensive threat to the opposing Mon anyway, so Gastly for example could sub down till your dynamax is over (and it has one turn left). Again these are in-game scenarios and it's hard to explain without replays, but this is why I think the still broken "defensive" dynamax doesn't counteract "offensive" dynamax properly, essentially making LC games come down to who dynamaxes in a better position. this sounds a lot to me like the broken mons that had situational sets in previous gens, where if you get the right timing with them (and it's very easy to!), you pretty much win. This sort of dynamax usage also means that a one-for-one trade with your dynamaxer vs random Mon doesn't feel great, boiling the utility of dynamax in the tier to being pretty much a "click and set up and win" button.

 

[fatty]

trash I appreciate your sentiment in not wanting to be too hasty in banning a new mechanic. It's a pretty big deal to do such a thing and I agree, in most issues we should be as careful as possible in letting the meta settle before we make decisions of this parameter. I say most cases because I think it's pretty damn clear Dynamax goes above and beyond being ban worthy and I think it would behoove us to get it out of here as quickly as possible. The game breaking power it has for 3 turns has trivialized matches to revolve around whos dynamax breaks the opponents team better, often times forcing a defensive dynamax just to have a chance vs whoever dmaxd first. For now though, I just want to address your rebuttals to a lot of the previous posters.

This is just wrong. Mostly every mon in this tier possess a defensive presence due to Eviolite or Berry Juice. They may not allow stall like level 100 stats but they fit well into the fast paced LC meta. Those items combined with Dynamax creates both a defensive and offensive ability to counteract opposing Dynamax’d mons.

I don't get how you can be so dismissive about the defensive ability of LC as a whole to stand up to Dynamax. Yes, we have Eviolite and Berry Juice. Cool. Eviolite is needed to give LC mons even a chance at counteracting offensive threats, this has been the case forever. Just look to DPP. This is why LC doesn't have stall, it can't keep up. Now, take those same mons who we already have trouble beating, especially with essentially no regen mons this go around, and add the fact that a mon can go nuclear at any point, double their HP, have access to Zmoves for 3 turns, and make use of the bountiful effects that come with them. I'm sorry, simply having Eviolite doesn't stand up to the onslaught these mons can bring.

In my experience, most of my games did not revolve on who abused Dynamax better. I used my own Dynamax defensively/reactively most of the time and still won.

I don't know what meta you've been playing in matches, but it's definitely not the one I have been playing or watching. Dynamax has had a massive effect on almost every match I've played and I would say a good half of them were ultimately decided by said Dynamax. Also I look at the defensive use of Dyna more as an "oh shit" button because it's so hard to handle with normal means. Using it reactively just gives more credence to the idea that whoever Dynamax's first has the upper hand. You're either taking a chunk out of an opponents team, or you're making them waste their offensive potential in their own Max. I don't really fully agree with this but I think it has some merit.

Maybe its because of getting used on how/when to use Dynamax and teambuilding (I’ll get to this later). Dynamax takes skill during the game because you can’t just set up turn 1 and just win. Players still need to plan out how to win with “x” and use “y” to break for “x.” This mechanic allows players to do so easier or have a way out for certain threats and because of this I find it healthy for the current metagame. Sure, Dynamax is centralizing. Having a metagame centralized on a mechanic is not a bad thing. We currently have the tier for the past 4 generations (including this one) centralized around items like Eviolite and Berry Juice (only 3 gen). These mechanics, items and Dynamax, influence players how to play and react accordingly. I believe we still need time to see if this Dynamax is broken or if certain mons abusing it is broken.

Again with the Eviolite. How does this even compare to Dynamax in the slightest? Dynamax blows every item out of the water and guess what you get to use whatever item you want in conjunction, even utilizing it to break out of choice lock potentially. The rest, sure it's not inherently a bad thing to revolve around a mechanic, but I also wouldn't call it a good thing, so touche?

I have found this meta way more skillful than SM. This mechanic forced me to think many turns ahead rather than just 5-7, and I would like to know your reasoning behind this. Dynamax does add something to the tier such as creative options on planning the game, using it either offensively to break for another mon or defensively to help your team check threats. I am unsure what you mean on “focuses on short term interactions.” If you meant how using Dynamax, I’ve discussed it above on centralization. And for the second part of the sentence, this could be said for the opposing side. We also can continue discovering counterplay against offensive Dynamaxing.

This is an absolutely absurd statement to make. I have no idea how you can proclaim that this is a more skillful meta when we are in the complete infant stages. You yourself even argue that we haven't had an ounce of tourney experience, yet somehow this meta is "way more skillful". If anything, I don't get how it's any more skillful to, again as you previously stated, have more options and make it easier to reach your goal of eliminating mons, which Dynamax clearly does. Wouldn't it take more skill to navigate a metagame where you didn't have this tool to make it easier to eliminate pokemon?

I can see this mechanic being more broken in lv 100 tiers, but not in LC currently. Offensively Dynamax is better, but defensively it still is insanely good because of having your HP doubled. Out of all the setup sweepers you listed, I only have had issues with G-Farfetch’d, Vullaby, and Ponyta. Setup sweepers are indeed extremely strong with Dynamax, but there are only some that I feel are absurdly broken. I’ve said this many times and cannot stress this enough, using your Dynamax defensively is also an option!

Ok this is definitely not true, and add this to you thinking that Eviolite solves all defensive issues LC might have and I really question what your understanding of the LC meta is compared to lv 100 tiers. I'm curious what makes you think it's tougher. OU has the luxury of having much less compressed stats, especially in the speed department, and the ability to tailor spreads to specific needs much easier. A +1 in LC almost assures you you're outspeeding the entire metagame unless you're slow as shit and the moves do so much damage that almost every mon can be considered offensive in some capacity. Not to mention, OU has access to Ditto, which from what I've seen has been one of the only things helping to keep Dmax in check. I also don't agree that Dynamax is "insanely good defensively" because, again, you don't want to be using it defensively. You get so much more mileage out of it offensively and it's not even close. If you are using it in that way, it means something has gone horribly wrong and you're pressing that oh shit button. This isn't even going into how you apparently only had issues with 3 dmax mons, one of which is outclassed by Rufflet as a bird-type dmaxer right now. This mechanic breaks a whole lot more than 3 mons and I really don't get how you didn't notice that during your ladder run / friendlies.

Banning Dynamax won’t fix the tier, it’ll just make it worse. Trapping will be far beyond broken, G-Farfetch’d is still going to be an issue, Vullaby will always be an issue, Gastly is dumb as balls with or without Dynamax. Yea let’s just ban Dynamax and still ban more than 5 mons! The meta would improve significantly without G-Farfetch’d and Vullaby, if we keep Dynamax.

I would love to hear an explanation here because this just screams baseless word vomit. You're telling me you've already assimilated to Dmax so much that you think it's essential for the meta, and in fact if it goes the meta will objectively be in a worse state? I don't even remotely get where this ideas comes from we don't even know what the meta is right now other than Dmax is really fucking good lol. Furthermore, if trapping is broken we ban it. Keeping Dynamax because its so powerful that it overshadows trappers is an absolutely terrible reason to keep it. Personally, I've seen Trapinch being as strong as ever, but whatever, we might still need to ban Gastly and Fetchd (the latter I am super unconvinced about in a non dmax meta), but I still think you're severely underrated the ability of this mechanic to break more mons than the obvious ones right now.

This is just a new mechanic that is introduced. Items were introduced in gen2 and changed the game. Abilities were introduced in gen3 and changed the game. Certain items extremely well with certain mons or even make it broken, this goes for abilities too. And coincidentally this is the same for Dynamax! Dynamax is a mechanic where you have three turns of 2x HP and max moves once a battle and both players can use it. Abilities and items are similar, instead you have them permanently (unless knocked off for items). We had metas around mons being strong and oppressing because of the combinations of stats, abilities and items. So, what is the difference with Dynamax? Unpredictability? Unhealthy? Dynamax is once a battle rather than the whole battle long. It is just a new mechanic that we are not used too.

Yes, the exact difference is the unpredictability, unhealthiness, and the overall offensive output you get for 3 turns whenever needed through dynamax. I don't think this is as comparable to items or abilities as you think.

 

[Merritt]

Small note: some pokemon's hidden abilities are unreleased beyond just the starters. For most Pokemon this isn't going to matter, but this is important for a few Pokemon. Purrloin loses Prankster, Chinchou loses Water Absorb, Hoothoot loses Tinted Lens, but most importantly Woobat loses Simple.

This obviously makes Woobat not particularly good.

 

[wooper]

when you have to actively build teams around countering certain mons, moves, abilities, and mechanics, that is indicative of something not being right and that it is worthy of examining and potentially banning from the tier. that is consistently how bans have worked in competitive battling. i personally dont see why dynamaxing is being treated differently

 

[Pamplona]

Dwebble @ Berry Juice
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Impish Nature
- Spikes
- Knock Off
- Rock Blast
- Counter

Hey everyone, so as I eclipsed 1400 on the ladder running weather teams and saw that dynamax was banned from LC, I thought I would share how I dealt with most physical dynamaxers.

Dwebble jumped out to me early on as I have used counter in the past as a means to deal with timburr easier. In the dynamax era, I noticed this immediately became a lot better. If you're able to keep rocks off the field, you're able to beat a large amount of physical dynamaxers head to head and allow your own to come in and finish off their team. Previous checks to dwebble such as onix and shellder with multihit moves actually had a disadvantage when going into dynamax as I could eliminate them while they were locked into only using max moves.

Overall, I never had to really worry about farfetch'd or rufflet and the other physical attackers that are repeated on this list so long as I played my cards right. If my opponent didn't want to lose their pokemon they would be forced to swap out and lose 2 dynamax turns which I viewed as a win. Dwebble benefitted greatly from being on a sand team as Drillbur's speed boost to rapid spin hazards was very useful for positioning myself for victory.

As for special attackers, click X if you don't dynamax yourself at the right moment.
Edit: I also wanted to mention Bergmite gets sturdy + mirror coat but sturdy is a hidden ability that is unreleased.

 

[Take Azelfie]

Never really touched LC too much besides a little bit at the start of gen 7 but there was a mon I found super cool from my little bit of playing today.

Impidimp (M) @ Eviolite
Ability: Prankster
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 36 Def / 196 SpD / 36 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Play Rough
- Sucker Punch
- Thunder Wave
- Taunt

Impidimp's Prankster has made it extremely good at playing as a supportive pivot being able to Thunder Wave pokemon before they U-Turn out of slow down something that tried to set up early. Taunt also helps to block off any pokemon trying to set up on this Pokemon as well and forces 50-50s versus Sub Gastly. Sucker Punch is also super strong and allows it to check a multitude of scarfers and cleaners just based off of that alone. And just in general this Pokemon feels like a Pokemon that isn't forfeiting or losing too much momentum because it's backed up by good bulk and a great tool kit. Taunt is just perfect for disallowing any non Pawniard Pokemon from using this as set up fodder and it's also a great check to Pokemon like Nasty Plot Vullaby, Ponyta, and Sinistea

 

[Natudayy]

lc banned dynamax?! maybe I will focus on this metagame in gen 8, instead of OU

 

[Yoshi]

I've finally decided that this Pokemon is unbelievably broken and needs to leave this tier. I think the lack of Pursuit is kind of a big thing considering it can just come in and out as it pleases, but it literally has 0 counter play outside of like Pawniard, which no one wants to run on every team. If you want to check it, it makes team building super restrictive, so the best way around it is offensively checking it, which sounds okay on paper, but just fails to work in practice, partially because of Pursuit's removal. Simply put, every time this Pokemon comes in you're going to lose a Pokemon if you don't have one of the very limited switch-ins. With it's coverage, speed tier, & just overall power, this Pokemon is just a huge pain in the ass and can't be healthy for the development of the tier, so I think we should just quick ban it.

 

[Stratis]

I'm not convinced a gastly suspect wouldn't be more appropriate than a quick ban. If people want to ban it though then ban it. Sub LO is certainly a power set in the meta. Perhaps with it gone we'd see other fast LO users like wingull more.

Anyways, I'm not going to do a whole write up on it but it would be nice to see some discussion on trappers and their negative impact. Gothita and trapinch are being ran on many teams successfully and some teams run both. The general consensus I've gotten is a desire to see them gone from the meta once more. To be frank, there is an expectation that these 2 will eventually leave and diglet will remain as before. Diglet has been suspected many times and never been banned afaik so it's not likely to be banned now, but we are dealing with a meta vastly different than gen 7 so I won't dismiss it outright. I'm biased though cause I always hated how easily diglet could pick off pokes like larvesta, ponyta, chinchou, etc. then just momento into a sweeper.

Trappers aren't fun, constrain teambuilding, and limit your options while dealing with them. They kill key mons you need for checks, making room for other pokes to come in and sweep.

Example: trapinch killing pawniard for gastly and onix for vullaby. Gothita killing spritzee for fetch/vullaby.

Skillful play declines when pokemon eliminate your option to switch. Having a golitha set up on you in mind numbing. The meta is starting to settle so it'll be time soon to deal with these one way or another.

 

[Corporal Levi]

Hey guys, here's a quick summary of what's on the council's plate right now. We're currently looking at quickbanning Gastly/Gothita/Remoraid for week 2 of ekans, so please let us know ASAP with your reasoning if you disagree with those.

Gastly benefited enormously in the transition to gen 8 from the removal of Pursuit and lowered distribution of Knock Off. Its high Special Attack and enormous coverage cause it to be dramatically more threatening than other mons close to its speed tier. It has the power to OHKO the vast majority of non-Eviolite mons, as well as a fair portion of Eviolite mons, with the appropriate coverage move; for example, Berry Juice Vullaby is OHKOed by Thunderbolt after Stealth Rock chip, while Ferroseed struggles against Fire Punch. The only otherwise viable mons that can claim to switch in on Gastly with some reliability even once are Pawniard, Munchlax, and bulky Cufant. Though its own switchin opportunities are mostly limited to revenge-kills, immunities, and the now rarer VoltTurn, the presence of such a fast and powerful sweeper that is also untrappable heavily restricts any archetype that isn't hyper offense.

Current verdict: ban (7-1)

Gothita was already banned last gen with minor disagreement last gen and is looking even more broken this gen. Like Gastly, it greatly appreciates the lack of Pursuit, as it is now able to switch in and out and repeatedly trap its targets with impunity - though Scarf sets are shut down on the revenge-kill by First Impression Trapinch and Sucker Punch Diglett, Eviolite sets can either run Protect or invest in bulk to fare better. Its coverage options grant it a degree of versatility that its fellow trappers can't match, allowing it to trap a greater variety of threats. Its bulk means that its Eviolite variants can switch in on a large portion of its targets relatively safely instead of relying on the revenge-kill, effectively invalidating them from team preview, which is something that Trapinch can only do on a select few targets and that Diglett can almost never do. A trapper as effective as Gothita is able to easily remove threats to its teammates and allow them to sweep.

Current verdict: ban (6-0)

While Moody has technically been freed in LC from the start, a sim error meant that Remoraid only gained Moody in LC recently. While we may give it some time to be playtested just in case, it's more likely that we'll write it off as immediately broken. Unlike Moody abusers in upper tiers, or even its fellow LC abuser Snorunt, Remoraid already has the stats to compete as a usable offensive mon. This, coupled with an excellent offensive movepool, which includes Scald/Surf/Hydro Pump, Fire Blast/Flamethrower, Bullet Seed, Rock Blast, Gunk Shot, and Psychic, means that it can become untouchable with favourable boosts far more quickly than Snorunt can. The random nature of Moody means that even if Remoraid teams only win half or slightly less than half of the time (which is up for debate - it very well may be outright too strong as well), it's uncompetitive in the sense that it takes the outcome of the game out of the hands of the players almost entirely.

Current verdict: leaning towards ban (note that only a few council members have responded so far)

Trapinch is another unbanned trapper that is currently looking extremely strong. Last gen, it was banned because it supported Vullaby and Abra too well, and while Abra is now gone, Vullaby is still around and needs Onix gone more than ever. Even without Abra, it's debatably actually gotten better this gen because many of the mons that punished it, such as Foongus, Mienfoo, and Staryu, are no longer around, and it has gained a nifty new tool in First Impression. It isn't quite as versatile or safe as Gothita, but it still has decent bulk and the coverage moves that it needs.

Current verdict: wait and see, but it's probably broken

Cutiefly is extremely effective in both a supporting and an offensive role. Relative to when it was banned last gen, it has lost Baton Pass, Roost, and Hidden Power, but gained access to Sticky Web. Its fantastic speed and helpful defensive typing allow it to reliably set up Sticky Web or dual screens, after which it can U-turn out or simply fire off attacks with its strong STABs and decent coverage. Alternatively, access to Quiver Dance allows offensive Cutiefly to boost its speed to a tremendous level where many offensive teams will struggle to revenge-kill it. A loss of Hidden Power and Cutiefly's low initial damage output means that mons like Ferroseed and Munchlax are able to shut it down indefinitely, however.

Current verdict: wait and see, but it's probably broken

Snorunt, the other Moody abuser available in LC, has lower offensive stats and a much less impressive movepool, so it will likely need much more favourable boosts before it becomes as threatening as Remoraid. This means that there is a good chance that Remoraid may be broken where Snorunt isn't, or that, in the same vein as Swagger, Snorunt may not meet the threshold of viability needed to justify being dealt with - this would be a policy question that we would need to discuss further. On the other hand, it may just be the case that its stats and movepool are good enough for it to be broken anyways.

Current verdict: wait and see

Farfetch'd-Galar has a sky-high Attack stat, decent bulk, and fantastic coverage options in Knock Off, Brave Bird, and Poison Jab; it's notably the only Fighting-type alongside Machop that has retained access to Knock Off. It's difficult to switch into and almost impossible to wall outside of Iron Defense Mareanie, and the tier being a bit slower than in previous gens makes it more threatening as a sweeper than it might have been if introduced in previous gens. With that being said, its viability is heavily influenced by Gothita in particular, as it can take advantage of Gothita's support to an extreme degree, and Gothita is also one of the best ways to reliably remove it from the game. We'll probably wait until later iterations of the metagame to judge whether it's broken.

Current verdict: wait and see

Vullaby lost HP Grass and its Z sets in the transition to gen 8, but it's still got everything it needs to remain comfortably top tier. With that being said, our consensus so far is that it hasn't become overbearing just yet; this might be because Onix has improved enough as a mon with Head Smash/Body Press/Dragon Dance to not feel as forced anymore, or Pawniard is already everywhere to deal with Gastly, or it simply isn't as overwhelmingly broken as some of the other mons we currently have to deal with. It'll also be significantly affected by any potential trapper bans, given its presence as one of the few Knock Off/U-turn users left, whether for better or for worse.

Current verdict: wait and see

 

[Moutemoute]

Hey there guys, so I'm definitively not a main LC player but I played some games during the few previous days to see what LC looked like. First of all, I'd like to shoutout my friend Bouki who gave me a really effective team (Drifloon / Spritzee / Ferroseed / Mareanie / Timburr / Pawniard) which allows me to go straight up 35-0 on the ladder, which I guess is enough to make an opinion on a Pokemon I faced a lot and that I already hate : Gastly !

proof

I absolutely agree with the fact that Gastly is legit broken in the tier, this Pokemon has always been a solid pick in LC since I started playing Pokemon in ORAS. Although it was always great, I never seen this Pokemon as powerful as now. This Pokemon has literraly no switch-in in the whole tier. When it's coming on the field you almost know that you'll have to sack something. You're not even safe to switch because it can allows Gastly to use Substitute. Thanks to Fire Punch, it can obliterates Ferroseed with ease while Shadow Ball + Sludge Wave can dent absolutely everything that switch-into. It's movepool is great and allows it to pick whatever it wants, almost everything works on this shit. Also the fact that Pursuit is no more available is also a huge buff for Gastlty because it can't be trapped anymore which means it can go back and forth freely which it's insane.. So yeah, I hope it will be banned, that would be great !

As I said before, I'm not a main LC at all so I will not give extra thoughts on Pokemon I don't met enough like Gothita or Remoraid (although I almost lost a game to the second one because of lucky moody boosts). I also would like to say that I found Farfetch'd-Galarr really oppressive. Scrappy is really annoying and allows this Pokemon to spam Close Combat. I do believe you must have at least 2 solid checks to Scrappy Close Combat in your teams if you don't want to be roll over by the sheer force of this Pokemon. I leave more experienced players talk in depth about it.. !

 

[PyProd]

Gastly totally seems like a huge pain nowadays. Sporting a plothera of coverage, (with the hit-everything move Shadow Ball, the strong Sludge Wave (Bomb being blocked by Bulletproof shit), Thunderbolt to take care of bulky waters and Vullabies, Giga / Energy Ball for Ground Types, heck even Fire Punch hits Ferroseed, which would otherwise check it just fine,) and the ability to hit'n'run freely as Pursuit isn't allowed anymore makes this mon really dumb. Now I know I'm not making you learn anything, but Gastly, while not having a nice bulk, can come in on some attacks it resists and directly apply pressure. It can also benefit from another teammate u-turning (such as Vullaby, which I still like as a pivot, Chinchou..), to him or to Trapinch, which can easily take care of the three mons listed above by Levi, being Cufant (not sporting Power Whip), Munchlax and Pawniard. Other things that were less discussed are how Gastly can still run other sets than Life Orb: the Will-O + Hex in conjunction with Toxic Spikes Neutralizing Gas Koffing (I will just never shut up about this mon), or even on itself (without any related teammate) is a mean to completely invalidate checks (like Pawn) for teammates. Alternatively, Gastly can also run Choice Scarf to outpace some other scarfers (such as Farfetch'd) as a surprise. The aforementionned set also liking the fact that Pursuit is gone.

Gastly is totally dumb, ban it.

Remoraid swept me so ban this. More seriously, the Ability named "Moody", at first glance,is presented as randomly boosting a stat and dropping another simulteanously. Now, with Remoraid's nice 17 Speed, and with the Protect + Substitute combination, the player can manipulate the boosts Remoraid will gain, by waiting for the "kaïros" (= the appropriate moment) to snowball out of control, this fact being bolstered by the fact that Moody no longer boosts Accuracy / Evasion, therefore making a more appealing chance to boost the stat you want to boost. The 17 Speed is a rather interesting point: Remoraid outspeeds many commonly played mons such as Farfetch'd, Pawniard, and defensive options, so it can freely abuse the aforementionned combination against these mons, in order to reach his "kaïros" faster. Now speaking about Moody, when Remoraid gets a Speed Boost, it cannot be revenge killed, as it can simply set Protect or a sub at your poor priority-hitting try, and grab some boosts along the way. It's worth noting that all priority users are naturally slower than Remoraid, where with +1 17 Speed, only Scarf Gastly can hope to outspeed the fish. If it gets +1 SpA, it will naturally get stronger and abuse the only coverage it needs: Water (Surf / Hydro Pump) and Fire (Fire Blast / Flamethrower) which shuts off Remoraid's defensive answers. If Remoraid gains defense boosts, the only things able to tank a hit and then retaliate will be shut off by strong bulk, even evioless. Now, think of all that, and, as Remoraid has 4 free turns before popping BJuice (even more if defense gets boosted), and you get a strong snowballing behemoth never seen anywhere else.

Snorunt, while working the same, has amore affordable typing, bulk and speed, so I'll stay silent on this case, as well as for Gothita's, with which I haven't been experiencing at all.

The two mons I have covered above thus are unhealthy for the meta to my mind, and to the ones of the above posters.

 

[MK007]

Gastly has been super oppressive, as has Goth. Both probably need to go due to lack of counterplay.

I would say that the council should be somewhat cautious, as we already lost a lot of mons, and this looks like we could potentially lose a LOT more.

Is trapinch truly broken? Or is it just people refusing to adapt too it? I personally hate it and hate playing against it, but it's trapping ability is not anywhere near what Goths is imo. While Goth is certainly broken, I don't think its overwhelmingly broken. Trapinch feels like an A+ mon to me, not a broken S tier. However I wouldn't strongly oppose it's ban as arguements for trapping being unhealthy are perfectly valid.

I'd also like to comment on Vullaby. I would argue that it has gotten better this gen... not worse. Scarf Vull is an even harder matchup than before, especially with the ability to u-turn out into Trapinch. Ferroseed is seeing a lot more play as a defensive backbone, and Vull breaks right through it. With the combination of Knock Off, Brave Bird, and Heat Wave combined with it's stellar overall stats I would say vull is one of the most dangerous mons at the moment. Add in a variety of options that make it hard to predict and one wrong move can lose you a game. Weak Armor + Nasty Plot is extremely oppressive, and makes it hard to click any physical move against vullaby. Playing against a Vullaby puts 90% of the responsibility to make the correct play on the person playing it, while the Vull user who knows what set it is doesn't have to think nearly as hard. Trapinch being banned would certainly make Vullaby worse, but right now with Trapinch (and Goth!) still free I would say it is much better than last gen.