Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread

Camden

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With Pokemon HOME now released, you are now able to transfer current Pokemon with old movesets as well as alternate formes of currently available Pokemon. In particular, this means we have access to Recycle Drifloon and Bulbasaur. Because of this, the council would like to ban Drifloon and Vulpix.

Recycle allows Drifloon to sustain itself incredibly well, continually regaining Berry Juice to allow for either multiple potential sweeps, or to keep itself out longer. The return of Recycle also allows the Acrobatics/Will-O-Wisp to return to prominence, allowing Drifloon to wall several relevant physical threats.

Bulbasaur becoming available provides Sun teams with another strong Chlorophyll sweeper. For all intents and purposes, it is an upgrade to Cherubi, a currently banned Pokemon. In addition, regular Ponyta returns, and it now has Solar Blade, allowing it to run a purely physical set to its full potential. We primarily want to ban Vulpix because of the power of the two Chlorophyll abusers, but Pony's kinda dumb, too. :P

We're also looking into Aurora Veil. With the return of Alolan Vulpix and Zigzagoon, Veil teams are looking stronger than ever before, but it'll require more testing before we make a call. Regardless, discussion on this as well Drifloon and Sun is welcome. We understand that some users don't agree with banning Vulpix, so please, give us your thoughts!
 

earl

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is a Community Contributor
With Pokemon HOME now released, you are now able to transfer current Pokemon with old movesets as well as alternate formes of currently available Pokemon. In particular, this means we have access to Recycle Drifloon and Bulbasaur. Because of this, the council would like to ban Drifloon and Vulpix.

Recycle allows Drifloon to sustain itself incredibly well, continually regaining Berry Juice to allow for either multiple potential sweeps, or to keep itself out longer. The return of Recycle also allows the Acrobatics/Will-O-Wisp to return to prominence, allowing Drifloon to wall several relevant physical threats.

Bulbasaur becoming available provides Sun teams with another strong Chlorophyll sweeper. For all intents and purposes, it is an upgrade to Cherubi, a currently banned Pokemon. In addition, regular Ponyta returns, and it now has Solar Blade, allowing it to run a purely physical set to its full potential. We primarily want to ban Vulpix because of the power of the two Chlorophyll abusers, but Pony's kinda dumb, too. :P

We're also looking into Aurora Veil. With the return of Alolan Vulpix and Zigzagoon, Veil teams are looking stronger than ever before, but it'll require more testing before we make a call. Regardless, discussion on this as well Drifloon and Sun is welcome. We understand that some users don't agree with banning Vulpix, so please, give us your thoughts!
If Vulpix is banned, I assume Cherubi would be made legal again?
 

ghost

formerly goldenghost
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LC Leader
I don't see any way Vulpix isn't banworthy now. Sun is already a powerful, polarizing archetype that gains two extremely strong abusers, Ponyta being an excellent all-around Pokemon even without sun and Bulbasaur being completely unstoppable after a boost. It will be fun to use busted-ass sun for a bit on the ladder, but no way should this ever see the light of day in an LC tour game.

I am somewhat surprised and also glad to hear council is considering Aurora Veils. I have (notoriously) hated Zigzagoon for a long time, but in this metagame it seems like much less of a matchup fish than it was last generation. Gastly is banned and thus no longer stonewalls it, and with Drifloon almost assuredly gone too, there are no fast ghosts in the tier to deal with Zig. Eviolite Pawniard will likely make its return as Knock Off removes (heh) the appeal of Berry Juice Thief sets, and Onix is always around, but beyond these two easily-trapped Pokemon there are no answers for +6 Zigzagoon. This is to say nothing of the other potent threats Veils enables (NP Vullaby, Shell Smash Shellder and Dwebble, etc) in a pretty braindead offensive style. I don't know if Veils are broken, per se, but I think the meta is assuredly better without them.
 

Seo.

Nice guys always finish last...
Glad Home is out and we get to try out some new stuff.
I know a lot of people are wondering what new moves current Pokemon get, me being one of them, so here's a list of new Pokemon/Moves.

The mons that will be joining us (some in which aren't that good):


Knock Off:

Defog:

Toxic:

Recycle:

Simple:
(with the addition of Nasty Plot this gen)
Aerial Ace:

Covet:

Roost:

Synthesis:

I might be missing some, I'll edit tomorrow, but hmu if there's anything I should add/remove.

My take on some new cores

Ah yes, the duo is back. Honestly, in Gen 7 I wasn't to bothered by this core, but with Gastly banned and Drifloon potentially getting banned, it's way more threatening. Once Zigzagoon sets up, there aren't that many mons that don't get OHKO'd, besides like Onix and Ferroseed (which can't do much in return). I find it a huge problem this gen, if there was a suspect I would 100% ban Aurora Veil, because not only does it help Zigzagoon set up, but other set-up sweepers like Dwebble, Shellder, Vullaby, Squirtle :). All in all, I'd rather Aurora Veil get banned, but I guess we'll see how it plays out this gen.


For some reason a lot of people are saying they want Bulbasaur or Weather Ball banned rather than Vulpix? I guess I see where they are coming from, but for myself id rather ban Vulpix. The main problem is Sun + Weather Ball + Chlorophyl, so rather than banning Cherbi, Bulbasaur etc, the common reason for the problem is the Sun that Vulpix provides, or just ban Drought, not sure where the council stands there. Again, I wanna see how it plays out in the meta, but I highly doubt Vulpix is gonna stay.

Some new sets [might edit later w/ new ones or changes]

Pawniard @ Eviolite
Level: 5
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 156 Atk / 36 Def / 116 SpD / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Knock Off
- Iron Head
- Swords Dance / Stealth Rock



Timburr @ Eviolite
Ability: Iron Fist
Level: 5
EVs: 196 Atk / 156 Def / 156 SpD [EVs are subject to change]
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Drain Punch
- Mach Punch
- Knock Off / Thunder Punch
- Defog / Bulk Up



Vulpix-Alola @ Light Clay
Ability: Snow Warning
Level: 5
EVs: 52 HP / 200 SpA / 240 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Aurora Veil
- Blizzard
- Freeze-Dry
- Moonblast



Zigzagoon @ Berry Juice
Ability: Pickup
Level: 5
EVs: 132 HP / 196 Atk / 108 Def / 28 SpD / 36 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Extreme Speed
- Seed Bomb
- Thief



Bulbasaur @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
Level: 5
EVs: 44 Def / 160 SpA / 240 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Bomb
- Giga Drain
- Growth
- Weather Ball



Wingull @ Life Orb
Ability: Rain Dish
Level: 5
EVs: 36 Def / 236 SpA / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 18 HP / 30 SpD
- Scald
- Hurricane
- U-turn
- Knock Off / Defog


Lets make OP proud and make Shell Smash Squirtle relevant

Squirtle @ Eviolite
Ability: Rain Dish
Level: 5
EVs: 4 HP / 116 SpA / 84 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Aura Sphere
- Ice Beam
- Hydro Pump / Surf
- Shell Smash


Hope everyone has fun with the new additions to LC, hmu if you ever wanna test stuff/build.
 
Last edited:
Glad Home is out and we get to try out some new stuff.
I know a lot of people are wondering what new moves current Pokemon get, me being one of them, so here's a list of new Pokemon/Moves.

The mons that will be joining us (some in which aren't that good):


Knock Off:

Defog:

Toxic:

Recycle:

Simple:
(with the addition of Nasty Plot this gen)

I might be missing some, I'll edit tomorrow, but hmu if there's anything I should add/remove.

My take on some new cores

Ah yes, the duo is back. Honestly, in Gen 7 I wasn't to bothered by this core, but with Gastly banned and Drifloon potentially getting banned, it's way more threatening. Once Zigzagoon sets up, there aren't that many mons that don't get OHKO'd, besides like Onix and Ferroseed (which can't do much in return). I find it a huge problem this gen, if there was a suspect I would 100% ban Aurora Veil, because not only does it help Zigzagoon set up, but other set-up sweepers like Dwebble, Shellder, Vullaby, Squirtle :). All in all, I'd rather Aurora Veil get banned, but I guess we'll see how it plays out this gen.


For some reason a lot of people are saying they want Bulbasaur or Weather Ball banned rather than Vulpix? I guess I see where they are coming from, but for myself id rather ban Vulpix. The main problem is Sun + Weather Ball + Chlorophyl, so rather than banning Cherbi, Bulbasaur etc, the common reason for the problem is the Sun that Vulpix provides, or just ban Drought, not sure where the council stands there. Again, I wanna see how it plays out in the meta, but I highly doubt Vulpix is gonna stay.

Some new sets [might edit later w/ new ones or changes]

Pawniard @ Eviolite
Level: 5
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 156 Atk / 36 Def / 116 SpD / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Knock Off
- Iron Head
- Swords Dance / Stealth Rock



Timburr @ Eviolite
Ability: Iron Fist
Level: 5
EVs: 196 Atk / 156 Def / 156 SpD [EVs are subject to change]
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Drain Punch
- Mach Punch
- Knock Off / Thunder Punch
- Defog / Bulk Up



Vulpix-Alola @ Light Clay
Ability: Snow Warning
Level: 5
EVs: 52 HP / 200 SpA / 240 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Aurora Veil
- Blizzard
- Freeze-Dry
- Moonblast



Zigzagoon @ Berry Juice
Ability: Pickup
Level: 5
EVs: 132 HP / 196 Atk / 108 Def / 28 SpD / 36 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Extreme Speed
- Seed Bomb
- Thief



Bulbasaur @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
Level: 5
EVs: 44 Def / 160 SpA / 240 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Bomb
- Giga Drain
- Solar Beam
- Weather Ball



Wingull @ Life Orb
Ability: Rain Dish
Level: 5
EVs: 36 Def / 236 SpA / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 18 HP / 30 SpD
- Scald
- Hurricane
- U-turn
- Knock Off / Defog


Lets make OP proud and make Shell Smash Squirtle relevant

Squirtle @ Eviolite
Ability: Rain Dish
Level: 5
EVs: 4 HP / 116 SpA / 84 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Aura Sphere
- Ice Beam
- Hydro Pump / Surf
- Shell Smash


Hope everyone has fun with the new additions to LC, hmu if you ever wanna test stuff/build.
Screenshot_20200212-045918_Samsung Internet.jpg
 

Altariel von Sweep

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With HOME's arrival, we all can agree that the metagame has taken a sudden turn of the events with the return of Knock Off and Recycle on certain Pokemon whose niche have improved upon it, and the addition of new faces that will contribute to shape the metagame. In this post I have the intention to go over the relevant newly added Pokemon, as well as the most important moves that certain Pokemon have gotten back the aforementioned attacks or fundamental attacks for their development in metagame. Lastly, I will talk about their impact in the metagame, whether it may be positive or not.

NEWLY ADDED POKEMON

Sun has received Bulbasaur, which after Cherubi's departure has become the best Sun sweeper in the metagame. Thanks to the holy coverage of Grass/Poison/Fire granted to it, Bulbasaur is able to muscle through a lot of the metagame threats with relevant ease (except Litwick), with Life Orb sets 2HKOing many bulky Pokemon such as Timburr, defensive Ponyta and OHKOing most of non-resists with ease. Sleep Powder provides utility to Bulbasaur's offensive nature, allowing it to play around Pawniard's sucker Punch, or sinking the opponent's momentum to fire off strong attacks to the switch-in. Growth sets miss out the inmediate power Life Orb provides, but allows Bulbasaur to get more setup opportunities thanks to Eviolite, turning the initial power into 2HKOs to even resists. I can see this becoming a big issue because of Vulpix's influence.


Ponyta is a quite welcoming addition due to the fact that it has overshadowed Litwick as a Sun check due to an overall better build, coverage options, power and Flame Charge, which allows it to outspeed Diglett and beat it. Defensive sets are easily the best ones with the ability to both check Eject Pack Vulpix + trapper and spreading burns to the opposing team. Coverage can be picked to deal with Mareanie and Fire-types such as opposing Ponyta, Vulpix and Charmander, and Water-types such as Wingull, Krabby and Corphish thanks to High Horsepower and Wild Charge, respectively. However, its offensive role is the most curious one, as the addition of Solar Blade to its arsenal has made it a quite threatening Sun sweeper able to both check sun and beat other Pokemon. Solar Blade/Flare Blitz/Flame Charge/filler is looking quite efficient for Ponyta on these kinds of teams, and checking it may be one of the hardest tasks there will be in the following days.


I know you all have been waiting for this: Alolan Vulpix is back, and so is Veils. Holy shit, you guys don't know how much potential there will be with Veils and many of the abussers that can use it. Dragon Dance Scraggy, Shell Smash Squirtle (see below), Shellder, Nasty Plot Vullaby, Zigzagoon (see below), Quiver Dance Cutiefly, Swords Dance Krabby, even rarer sets such as Double Dance Rufflet will be able to shine in this archetype. What matters though is the amount of abusers there are for this archetype, which many of them are pretty hard to handle.


Squirtle gaining Shell Smash has provided it an okay niche by using its Water/Ice/Fighting coverage to blast through most of the metagame after a boost. Bulkier Pokemon like Spritzee and Timburr get 2HKOed after Stealth Rock and the other Water-types bar Mareanie get easily 2HKOed or OHKOed by Aura Sphere. Nevertheless, trappers are a prominent presence and will allievate Squirtle's issue of not breaking Mareanie. As mentioned above, it is not very resistent even with Eviolite, so Veils gives it the needed boost to actually setup. I can see it being a fine addition.


I hope you are ready to look for decent answers to this, because with the departure of Gastly and the inminent threat of a quickban on Drifloon, Zigzagoon is looking much, muuuch stronger than before under Veils. Needleesly to explain that even resists such as Ferroseed and Pawniard get their Eviolite stolen by Thief and then killed by +6 Extreme Speed. Onix doesn't even check it anymore due to Seed Bomb being run more often, which means this Pokemon has literally no reliable answers.

POKEMON THAT IMPROVED

Drifloon recovering Recycle with HOME's arrival means that the old bread and butter Substitute/Will-O-Wisp/Acrobatics is back on track and it is even better than it was on Gen 7, 1v1'ing most of the metagame's threats with much more ease. Onix and Pawniard are the main Flying-type checks and Drifloon shall be careful with both of them; however, metagame trends are detrimental for those checks as Trapinch is able to take them down. Even Ponyta, which is probably the best check Drifloon has, still must have Diglett in consideration despite having Flame Charge, and even burned Trapinch is an eyesore. Against Sun teams I expect it to excel as 34 Speed outspeed everything relevant in the metagame and Acrobatics deals a ton of damage to many of the abusers. This shit is definitely gone in a few days after implementing the changes or so.


Both Spritzee and Mareanie recovering Covet means that Spritzee will become once again the best Knock Off Absorber and a much better check to Fighting-types and Flying-types than it already was, providing much further utility than before. Mareanie, while not as prominent as Spritzee in this regard, can take advantage of Regenerator to take Knock Offs and keep itself healthy throughout a match.


Rufflet is probably the second biggest winner of this transition behind Drifloon, as the return of Aerial Ace and Roost enabled a set that was stupidly hard to deal with in SM and a bit matchup fishy: Bulk Up + Roost. Knowing that Cutiefly is still around, slapping this Pokemon on Webs is going to be oh so easy, as its insane bulk of 25/21/21 allows it to take many attacks while being able to outspeed any non-Scarf threat and setup even in front of Onix despite having Head Smash and take it out. Once Webs are up, if your Defogger is gone, I definitely can assure you that Rufflet is 6-0ing most of the unprepared builds thanks to the simple combination of Aerial Ace + Superpower. It may not look strong right now, but once metagame settles down prepare yourselves for a wild ride.


WIngull got Defog back, meaning that aside from blasting the metagame with its STABs it can also force switches to take hazards away. Not sure how would this affect it since it doesn't get too many chances with Pawniard around and Vullaby being much better Defogger, but I guess it could get a niche.


All of these Pokemon got Knock Off back, increasing their offensive capabilites by a far lot and providing further utility.

Pawniard has recovered its old Stealth Rock set and is a much more efficient Defog deterrent on Webs now as it does not have to run Night Slash anymore.

Timburr with Knock Off and Defog coupled is able to provide utility and force many switches. It can now run all out attack sets with Knock Off to improve its offensive presence.

Although not as big as the previous two, Croagunk's mixed sets enjoy the return of Knock Off being able to weaken several Pokemom that is able to check such as Corphish and Mareanie.

Scraggy getting Knock Off puts Crunch out of scene and enables its Dragon Dance and Choice Scarf sets to work on offensive and hyper offensive teams.

Pancham is now able to take advantage of the switches it causes to Knock Off the target, which coupled with Parting Shot has enough to offer.

Mareanie getting Knock Off has further improved the utility it provides, knocking off the switch-in's item.

IMPACT ON THE METAGAME

(
)
Sun has now a wider array of abusers that can complement each other, but I would like to pinpoint the next combinations:

1. Fire-type + Sun sweeper
Consists in a Fire-type like Sunmander or Ponyta coupled with one of the Sun sweepers, be it Bulbasaur or Growth + Strength Sap Oddish. Sunmander excels a lot coupled with Bulbasaur as it weakens most of the check for Sunmander and Bulbasaur puts targets that Sun cannot easily deal with to sleep. In exchange, Sunmander deals with other Fire-types thanks to Solar Power Ancient Power, forming a powerful duo able to crack teams with many resists. Ponyta, on the other hand, boasts many coverage options that can help the sun sweepers in a pinch, specially High Horsepower removing other Fire-types and Mareanie.

2. Sun sweeper Spam
Both Bulbasaur and Oddish have amazing traits that distint each other's capabilities, with Oddish handling Munchlax, Timburr and Mareanie to force them out, and Bulbasaur thanks to the forced switches, is able to spam Life Orb boosted attacks and remove Pawniard and Ferroseed, which Oddish would be unable to beat otherwise.

And even so, Eject Pack Vulpix is still able to become these Pokemon very dangerous and enable trappers to take Pawniard, Munchlax and Ferroseed out for them.

The sheer effectiveness of the archetype would be enough reason to focus on the cause of this: Vulpix. As such, I would warrant looking it over. Would it be that it ends up gone Cherubi would come back to the metagame.


Veils is probably going to be the counterpart to literal brokeness in this metagame state. Partially as a Sun answer, the effectiveness of these Pokemon under Veils is going to overwhelm most of the teams there are right now. As mentioned above, the most worthy of a suspect were it to happen would be Zigzagoon, which despite only working under Veils, has no answers and justifies the way to become Veils less threatening without fully removing the archetype.
 
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Woobat @ Eviolite / Berry Juice
Ability: Simple
Level: 5
EVs: 92 Def / 236 SpA / 180 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Stored Power
- Heat Wave
- Substitute

While its still not good, its niche as a Simple Sweeper is slightly improved thanks to getting access to Nasty Plot. Stored Power + Heat Wave hits a lot of things for at least neutral damage. +4 Special Attack does have some difference

Few calcs:
+4 236 SpA Woobat Stored Power (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Munchlax: 27-33 (90 - 110%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
+4 236 SpA Woobat Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Vullaby: 23-28 (100 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO ( survives from full if Eviolite or 25 HP / 15 SpD BJ)
+4 236 SpA Woobat Heat Wave vs. 36 HP / 36 SpD Berry Juice Scraggy: 22-26 (100 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(Also, Sub is for avoiding Pawniard's Sucker Punch

yeah... this thing is going to be crazy. +6 Thief followed by Extreme Speed does have a chance to KO Pawniard and Ferroseed. In addition, there's like little or no replaceable Offensive Ghost-Type if Drifloon got banned (Defensive Ghost-Types are bad at checking Zigzagoon anyway). I see little things to stop a +6 Zigzagoon from sweeping, moreso if Veil is up.

Gonna look forward to see the metagame with the returning LC mons, even if its just only few.
 

1_TrickPhony

BSS Circuit Co-host
So Im just getting into LC, and my first question with Vulpix being questioned for banning, why is Drought not on the chopping block instead of the whole Pokemon? Sorry if this has been covered already, I gave the thread a quick scan and didnt see it.
 

Merritt

no comment
is a Tournament Directoris a Site Content Manageris a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Dedicated Tournament Host
Head TD
So wouldnt banning drought, resulting in a usable Vulpix with Flash Fire, be preferred?
Banning the Pokemon rather than the ability is preferable. This falls in line with a significant amount of precedent and isn't an attempt to nerf a Pokemon to leave it at an "acceptable" level for the metagame, since that starts putting a significant amount of subjectivity into bans. An example would be something like Pure Power instead of Meditite.

An ability ban should really only be considered if it's breaking a significant number of Pokemon or fulfills the definition of uncompetitive.
 
Hold your horses everyone, I tested a few things and we might be in a bit of a pinch:
The new mons introduced with home, in particular Bulbasaur, aren't legal in online battles and you can't use them under any circumstances, apparently. Still, we're now a unofficial meta with a particular and unique set of rules, so I would say no biggie, but the problem comes from those mons already in the game that had their move pool changed. You cannot use online Pokémon that have a move they don't learn in SS, neither you can breed the moves down (tested on Pawniard), which raises the question "should these moves be legal?" due to how complicate every sets need to be made for them. So here I am asking for opinions? Thoughts?
 
Regular Form
Meowth @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 76 Def / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 HP
- Double-Edge
- Knock Off
- Feint
- Fake Out

Meowth is a lot better now thanks to it getting back two key moves in Double-Edge and Knock Off. It seems to find pretty decently opportunities to revenge kill and deal some big damage.

Also here's a stupid Spritzee set that I'm having more fun with than I should:
Spritzee @ Berry Juice
Ability: Aroma Veil
Level: 5
EVs: 52 HP / 116 Def / 252 SpA / 76 SpD / 12 Spe
Modest Nature
- Moonblast
- Psychic
- Covet
- Substitute
 
Hold your horses everyone, I tested a few things and we might be in a bit of a pinch:
The new mons introduced with home, in particular Bulbasaur, aren't legal in online battles and you can't use them under any circumstances, apparently. Still, we're now a unofficial meta with a particular and unique set of rules, so I would say no biggie, but the problem comes from those mons already in the game that had their move pool changed. You cannot use online Pokémon that have a move they don't learn in SS, neither you can breed the moves down (tested on Pawniard), which raises the question "should these moves be legal?" due to how complicate every sets need to be made for them. So here I am asking for opinions? Thoughts?
As long as you can use them in local link battles everything is fine.
 

Camden

Hey, it's me!
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I think when it comes to approaching Aurora Veil we need to consider the potency of the abusers as well as the convenience of setting it up in the first place. With Alolan Vulpix rocking 17 Speed and Snow Warning it's above and beyond the best Aurora Veil user. The only other way of setting it up without Vulpix is either using Snover as an auto-setter with Bergmite/Vanillite setting Veil, or simply having Bergmite/Vanillite set Hail and Aurora Veil one after the other to save on team space. Both of these options sound bad to me because you're either using two awful Pokemon to set up your strategy, hindering your team's viability significantly, or you're looking for two turns to successfully set up with a single Pokemon, which in the case of Bergmite and Vanillite you really really don't want to do. As strong as Zigzagoon/Vullaby/Shellder can be I don't think you can afford to throw away that much momentum for a chance at that.

tl;dr Alolan Vulpix should be what is looked at if we want to consider that end of an Aurora Veil hit.

While I'm at it, I'll quickly mention Ziggy. As KSG mentioned, the lack of speedy ghosts means fewer stops for an Espeed. In previous generations we also had Abra and Magnemite to deter its sweep a bit, but in this gen it has more room to sweep. However, it's still going to need Veil to set up reliably because of the heavy hitters in our metagame atm. Perhaps Memento support could be enough to make it too strong for now? I'm not sure. I need more time for that. For now I highly recommend discussing how good Aurora Veil is atm and if the power of our current set-up sweepers necessitate an Alolan Vulpix ban. I'm leaning towards a ban but I need a bit more time before saying anything definitively.
 

Ampha

"They don’t call me Greed for nothing!"
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
So, as everyone is talking about veils i'm coming here to tell that i'm on the ban side
veil.png

+ :corphish: + :shellder: + :croagunk: + :farfetchd: + :rufflet: and some other possible sweepers around
i've been using squirtle one more, but the fact is that veil makes a lot of things way more difficult to check around, and I believe that veil it should go, also since we are talking about it, I believe that only the move aurora veil should go, instead of Alola pix as a whole, as Alola pix offers us a Offensive Ice type which isn't completely owned by traps or misses moves all time(Snover loses to pinch's FI, and Galar maka is always bopped due to its misses) which would be nice on the current metagame(also using Snover + Vani/ berg sucks and would be cheesy as fuck despite being bad, nobody has even tried using it yet due to how bad it is)
Speaking of the Juicy racoon(hi seal), i've been using it around and it is extremely disgusting to check due to our lack of fast ghost types, Drifloon likely being banned due to Recycle being bad is another fact that makes it even worse to check, as resists like Ferroseed/ Pawn and even onix can be cheesed around w Diglett(like u can seed on the team above) or w thief for Ferroseed's case, I do believe that banning Ziggy would be the right call rn

also talking about weather, Vulpix once again makes sun overcentralizing due to Ponyta(with Solar Blade now) + Bulba being back, and so yeah, ban Kanto Pix

in some other notes, this guy get a chance to shine with sun being out of way:
:wingull:
No Hurri- nvm it missed, nerfless Scald make wingull way better than it was with sun around, also getting its Defog back is pretty nice

And now for the buffs talk
:Pawniard: :Mareanie: :Timburr: :Scraggy: :Pancham: :Inkay: (:meowth: sprite is bugged but its kanto meowth)
Those guys get cool benefits w knock being back, Pawn and timburr will be way more threatning now w all the evios dropping out and timb being allowed to use its 3 Punchs Knock set again
:spritzee:
Covet back and no Gastly around is p cool for Spritz, as it can steal items way more easily now

1581616480780.png
:squirtle: 1581616480780.png

SHELL SMASH MEN OML I LOVE HIM

:rufflet:
Rufflet once again is able to use its underrated Roost BU set, which is huge now and opens a lot for it in current meta, Aerial ace is finally back too aye

:meowth: Prob one of the things which most loved home
Meowth does not only get more options to play around now, but gets its way desired Knock and water pulse back, being able to finally destroy those onix and evios around
:woobat:
NP + Simple is cool af tech to use, plus heat + Psychic/stored is annoying to switch into

and a kinda indirect buff but
:ponyta:
Is way more busted now due to more restricted pools of mons, tho Frillish is more present than it was in SM

--------
:drifloon:
Dan Brifloon
 

Seo.

Nice guys always finish last...
With the banning of Vulpix, how viable are Oddish and Cherubi - if at all?
Oddish is still a really good defensive asset, helps with some threats like Corphish, Diglett, Timburr (w/o Ice Punch) etc. I feel like Oddish was used a lot w/o Vulpix when it was still in the meta. Its well paired with things like Ponyta who don't appreciate Corphish, Onix or Diglett, and in return gets rid of Ferroseed that walls it. On that note, people prefer Ferroseed just because of its access to its Steel-typing + Hazard setting capabilities.

Oddish @ Eviolite
Ability: Chlorophyll
Level: 5
EVs: 156 HP / 236 Def / 76 SpD / 36 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sleep Powder
- Sludge Bomb
- Strength Sap
- Giga Drain

Cherubi on the other hand, I wouldn't say is viable w/o sun, but I guess if you wanna try out a manual sun team w/ Sunny Day Pokemon which I personally don't recommend, then go for it? maybe go for Bulbasaur in that case?
 
With the banning of Vulpix, how viable are Oddish and Cherubi - if at all?
I had used Oddish on a webs team in order to help against the Sun matchup post-Cherubi banning. It did the job fairly well and I mostly just used it to dodge Sleep Powder. Eventually I just used Munchlax because it just did more for my team.
I would say it's pretty much outclassed. If you really wanted a defensive grass-poison there's even Budew, which has access to spikes and could be a status absorber because of it's ability. While it does have a nice fighting resist, now that Timburr has KO back, it's gonna be even more difficult to stick around. Oddish has become a poor man's Foongus.
 
More heat to share -

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Stunky @ Eviolite
Ability: Aftermath
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 12 HP / 188 SpA / 28 SpD / 244 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Dark Pulse
- Fire Blast
- Sludge Bomb

I thought this would be a meme, and it somewhat is, but hear me out. Stunky was always on the fringe of being a decent pick, but it has had physical movepool problems and no set up moves. It now has Nasty Plot and it's special movepool is actually decent. Granted 13 SpA is not great, is not that hard to set up as stunky actually has good bulk and more importantly, it hits 18 Speed, which is pretty huge. This takes a dump on Oddish, Ferro, Ponyta-G, Pawniard, and other top meta threats. It outspeeds and kills 36 HP Berry Juice Drilbur at +2 as well. Best of all, Mareanie loses to this set if it doesn't have Haze (which, in my experience, most do not have it). It also beats Vullaby except for maybe Choice Scarf sets if you're unlucky and even then you'll take it down with aftermath anyway. Unfortunately Digglet and Trapinch are a problem (although you can beat non-eviolite Trap if that's a thing) and Munchlax beats this set, but if the meta shifts or there are any other bans, this could be potentially good. It was slightly better when floon was in the tier, but i think it still has use.

Replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8lc-1067571583
If the ferro T-waved Stunky the game would be done, so it's not prefect, but it basically sweeps the entire team.

Other minor thoughts:

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Shellder gets rapid spin back, and with the Speed Buff, Rapid Spin Shellder is viable as hazard control. I've personally never really liked Drilbur as a reliable spinner, so its nice to have an alternative. A big plus this has over Drilbur is you can put Ice Shard on it for some priority for stuff like Woobat or Vullaby.


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This guy is ALMOST good. Glare is just broken and it's one of two users in Little Cup. Electric types obviously do not want to swap in to it, so Glare is extremely good on a Ground type. Shed Skin + Rest is okay recovery and makes it not toxic bait unlike hippo. Unfortunaely this thing literally does not get a single rock move. Like it doesn't even get stealth rock, rock slide, stone edge, it doesn't even get rock tomb lol. If this changes in the expansion and maybe it's movepool opens up, it could be worth using over hippo. You could of course use the Sand Spit ability with a Drilbur team but I personally haven't done that yet.

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Grooky is basically the only offensive Grass type in the tier now, except if you count Pump-XS, but Grookey is faster and gets Swords Dance. Wood Hammer is actually pretty scary on neutral targets even without a SD boost. Acrobatics and Drain Punch get rid of Oddish, Ferroseed, Pawniard, Munch, etc. Unfortunately it has nothing on Vullaby because it has no rock coverage, which definitely holds it back.
 
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