Metagame Metagame Discussion

[Éric]

here are some mons that i wanna talk about regarding their place on the metagame:

underrated mons

set

Shellos @ Eviolite
Ability: Sticky Hold
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 228 HP / 212 Def / 20 SpD / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Recover
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power

this mon is needed in very specific teams, but it is incredibly at what it does. shellos checks everything, it is insane you cannot kill it. it is capable of switching into all of the biggest threats in the metagame: life orb stunky, diglett alola, torchic, life orb wingull, vullaby, mudbray, growlithe, even mienfoo. it is, at the same time, a rocker that both beats the rockers (mudbray, glimmet, tinkatink) and the spinners (toedscool, alolan sandshrew, defog vull). its only problem, which is admittedly huge, is its passivity. it does do all of that, but at the cost of being a free switch into mienfoo (especially sd), evio mareanie or evio foongus every time. it also suffers vs uturn vull if you dont have another solid check to it, and it hates having rocks up in general. if you overcome this huge downside, it will perform way better than you expect it to.

calcs

252 Atk Life Orb Stunky Gunk Shot vs. 228 HP / 212+ Def Eviolite Shellos: 12-16 (44.4 - 59.2%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Diglett-Alola Earthquake vs. 228 HP / 212+ Def Eviolite Shellos: 9-13 (33.3 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
196+ SpA Life Orb Tera Ground Torchic Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 228 HP / 20 SpD Eviolite Shellos: 9-13 (33.3 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Wingull Hurricane vs. 228 HP / 20 SpD Eviolite Shellos: 12-16 (44.4 - 59.2%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
236+ Atk Vullaby Brave Bird vs. 228 HP / 212+ Def Eviolite Shellos: 9-12 (33.3 - 44.4%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

both of these electrics are underrated currently i think. they do different things, but both of them are eclipsed by elekid fsr at the moment, even tho i think the three of them are around as good. elekid does have knock and immediate speed, but magnemite packs a punch and a half, has an incredibly typing and it has two really good sets in magnet pull and analytic (both scarf), that do generally the same (being fast + good typing which allows it to check a plethora of mons like stunky vullaby mareanie wingull gothita etc), but one is able to trap steels like tinkatink for your teammates, while the other just has absolutely no switch ins and it eases prediction a lot. chinchou, on the other hand, is impossible to switch into if you play it well, generates a lot of momentum and, more importantly, is able to check both chinchou and vullaby. it threatens almost every single defensive core, the only mons that want to eat its hits are mienfoo (gets scald burned) or foongus (it needs evio + no rocks to not get 2hkoed by ice beam). thanks to volt switch it pairs incredibly well with things like vullaby, gothita or a fire type, and it checks other electric types as well. both are incredible mons atm imo, and they should get a lot more use. wattrel too but i havent given that one too much thought.

tour replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9lc-2223425887-jiqdybvj6tjlqfih1bz08b31f52plcipw?p2 https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-796675 https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-801064

sets

Froakie @ Eviolite
Ability: Torrent/Protean
Level: 5
Tera Type: Psychic/Ground
EVs: 28 HP / 36 Def / 180 SpA / 4 SpD / 188 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Tera Blast
- Ice Beam
- Spikes/Trailblaze

Froakie @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Protean
Level: 5
Tera Type: Psychic/Ground/Ghost
EVs: 28 HP / 68 Atk / 36 Def / 180 SpA / 4 SpD / 188 Spe
Timid Nature
- U-turn
- Ice Beam
- Hydro Pump
- Tera Blast/Spikes

we all know offensive water types are on the rise, with finizen and wingull making waves and destroying the metagame with their non water stab moves. however, one that i think is underrated, even tho i dont think its as good as the other two is froakie. as i see it, froakie has three sets that set it apart from its competition: as a scarfer with uturn and spikes, as an offensive spiker or as a trailblaze sweeper. spikes are, obviously, one of the best moves in the game, and froakie forces so many switches into mareanie that its able to use them really well. it shares checks with mienfoo, which means you can lure them with one so the other has an easier path to victory. its also got 17 speed, which means it outspeeds and threatens vullaby, mudbray and glimmet. the scarf version is capable of sweeping very well or adding to your teams utility, since it gets fast uturn and is able to sweep late game with unresisted ice beams. here's a tournament replay where froakie shows its value.

set

Snubbull @ Eviolite
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 5
Tera Type: Poison/Ground/Steel
EVs: 36 HP / 196 Atk / 196 Def / 36 SpD / 36 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Play Rough
- Psychic Fangs
- Earthquake
- Thief

people keep using it wrong and that makes them think its bad. no, snubbull isnt bad because "it loses to uturn". this thing is not an alomomola, it doesnt switch into mienfoo or vullaby passively forever, its not meant to. this thing finds opportunities to hit the field and hit something hard, that's what it does. stop trying with thunder wave nonesense, dont you realize they all go into grounds/electrics anyway? i see snubbull as a mon that uses the two best mons,, mienfoo and vullaby, as excuses to kill stuff. also, intimidate is INCREDIBLE, i cant stress it enough. it gives you the certainty that you can, in fact, check that shellder or even that stunky if you really need it to. great mon, super under used.


i dont have a set for this, i havent built with it but i want to. its seemed awesome in the games ive watched, with moves from the pool of axel, eq, spin, sd, ice shard, it is able to break incredibly well while checking stuff like vullaby or foongus. add that to a tera fairy to beat mienfoo too, and you have a mon that works even outside of snow teams. recommended.


i dont have a set for these either, but offensive fires that aren't torchic have seemed really good to me so far. yes, gawain is obsessed with wisp magby, and hes alone in that, but i see potential in these guys between their coverage and speed. who's gonna be the first to nail a wingull with thunderpunch magby? lol fire resists are hard to fit so these guys should have an easy time breaking

overrated mons

i think its good dont get me wrong, but i think its been a long time since this was in our top 4 of mons. evio sets dont hit that hard, and life orb sets have no defensive utility and 4 mss. while it definitely can do it, its rare enough that it breaks effectively, for a top 4 mon anyway.

why the fuck do you guys keep using this shit, id even use salandit before growlithe my god. i feel like i shouldnt even explain it but here we are: predicting is bad, locking is bad, missing is worse. the amount of games this thing sweeps is 0, its got negative winrate across all tours. seriously, why?


i know people will never stop using bad pokemon, or even think they are good, but i think they should.

underrated sets

boots wingull

Wingull @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Hydration
Level: 5
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 36 HP / 236 SpA / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
- Surf
- Hurricane
- Ice Beam
- U-turn

yes, im the boots guy still. anyone surprised? people use this thing with evio or life orb so far, but i think most teams dont need its bulk, and/or cant sustain a life orb one with rocks up. thus, boots wingull hits the field. with this, it is able to hit the battle infinitely to throw attacks that are really hard to resist. you know, the more times you get to fire off moves, the better. not saying you should spam boots wingull, but i do think its the best fit for teams that already have life orb users and have no removal, or that have other torchic checks lol

lure stunky

Stunky @ Life Orb
Ability: Aftermath
Level: 5
Tera Type: Ghost/Fairy/Ground
EVs: 12 HP / 252 Atk / 244 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Gunk Shot/Play Rough
- Foul Play
- Temper Flare/Tera Blast

i think that, at this point, we all know how deadly life orb stunky can be, right? if it has the right set it can just roll over. however, it often doesnt actually carry the right 4th move, because its very restricted with its first 3 moves. or is it? ive been noticing that it doesnt really hit sucker that much, am i alone in that? so, i thought that we could just drop it and get all moves we want at once, that way this stunky set should be unstoppable defensively, as long as you play it knowing it cannot sucker, and build around it. its options between gunk/prough and temper/terablast i think just depend on personal preference.

tiering action

obviously i want tera gone. other than that, i think the only current options regarding tiering are as follows, from most important to least:

ive wanted this thing gone forever, never stopped wanting to ban it. i think its baffling that shellder is somehow legal after last lcpl, and even more incredible that it has remained legal. this thing has an outstanding ability of just robbing games like its nobodys business its insane. yes, saying "every team gets 6-0ed by a specific shellder set" is lazy, but its way more deep than that. multiple sets are able to 6-0 lots of teams, its really easy to just revolutionize the shellder metagame and run away with an undeserved win. how do you plan a game vs a mon that can either tera out of electric weakness, tera into ghost vs your scarf mienfoo, tera rock/stellar to boost rock blast and kill mareanie, tera ice/water to kill mienfoo, tera steel to get two boosts vs foongus/mareanie, tera electric/ground to get unresisted stabs, not even tera and win alone with a surprise sub/protect/ice shard/3 attacks. mon's insane, i think its our biggest mistake since ive been playing. and its only gotten worse after voltorbs departure, getting lots more opportunities to set up and win.

i already made a post about this, but it is not broken and should be unbanned. it was rightfullly banned out of fear, but it wasnt unbanned when discoveries were made and more outrageously broken mons like porygon were legal. the day cinccino beats anyone ever i will allow you to disagree with me.

hey im not saying its broken, but i would surely not miss it. terrible to face and terrible to play. revolves the whole game around it, can tera to any type now and surprise ko your supposed "check", but it also can just miss?? definitely not needed defensively either so why do we keep it really

 

[Hacker]

good post from eric

i think that we should ban shellder. i think that the meta right now is in a strong point, we've seen a good amount of variety in scl and gameplay overall looks better. but shellder is still stupid and adds nothing good while making tier slightly worse


i used to be an avid defender of this, albeit mostly because of holtorb existing and a lot of the trends it forced making this thing a pretty terrible bring. its winrate and usage rate across holtorb meta will back this up, but with holtorb gone i do truly think it is too much and only is bad for the tier. this no longer is the case through its showcases both in scl and lpl and theres a large amount of games shellder is able to just completely steal. heres a few examples of replays where i felt like it was too much bc it either won the game itself or was able to do too much progress to normal teams that should be fine into it

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-800388
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-800723?p2 (you can kinda sum this up to unideal prep maybe bc no roar but cc good)

its way easier for it to get setup oppurtunities with holtorb gone and grookey being on the decline, which what was stopping me from supporting any action on this earlier but that was also bc holtorb was clearly more of a problem at the time. i encourage our tier leaders to give us a suspect on this immediately instead of wasting a few months when we clearly have the public support anyways

 

[Envy]

shellder always felt uncompetitive, even in voltorb-hisui meta

even though it had way less opportunities of setting up, the fear of 'hypothetical shellder' was always real, theres always the one set that wins against every team no matter what

running ttm? stellar 3 atks. running foongus mudbray? sub tera rock. running scarf foo? fairy/ghost 3 atks

its terrible to gameplan when the opponent has it because always gotta save tera for it

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-800723?p2 (you can kinda sum this up to unideal prep maybe bc no roar but cc good)

this team had tera blast flying mudbray and scarf foo, which was a core thought to lure foongus and get a HJK sweep /lure toed and get spikes but there wasnt a toed but my gameplan was always "gotta save foongus/mienfoo tera for shellder", as in tera foongus wins against non-tera rock blast and tera fighting hjk can ohko non fairy/ghost versions

well, yea if i had a more standard mudbray set as in tera steel or roar the game wouldve been in a good spot, ill just consider unlucky to have to fight the one shellder set that wouldve killed foongus.

yes, the game was lost the time i had to tera foongus, but i had to tera because 'it could be' icicle spear, so now it gets to the whole point of shellder:

it can be a lot.

and thats why i find it uncompetitive, because you can have the one shellder set that 6-0s the opposing structure, which happened in the other game you posted


with shellder banned some stuff may get annoying like torchic but this one has its own ban shouts atp, but yea i do think shellder deserves a suspect test asap

 

[chimp]

Sounds like tera is the problem, amirite my fellow LC players?

 

[Greedy_eb]

It's insane to me that I'm even defending Shellder since I don't even use this mon or enjoy going against it, but unfortunately, I do not think it is uncompetitive for the meta and it is just annoying. Maybe the super secret Shellder techs haven't fallen to seasonal and last chance yet, but for me, Shellder is just doing the same thing it's been doing since the beginning of the generation and is only now finding success because the meta is still in the works with more offensive builds in general being brought. I will be referencing the three SCL players' posts above me, and like the 47-year-old on the couch saying "I would have made that shot" to his favorite sports team, I will be saying that they're overreacting to Shellder.

Before I begin responding to the posts above, back in June of this year there was the quarterly "Shellder is broken" discussion that happened after Scottie posted this when he was knocked out of LC Open in ~Round 3. I'm not gonna summarize the post, but I do fondly remember a part that basically went "I've always thought Shellder was busted but I wanted to save it for later this tournament which is why I didn't use it and proceeded to lose to Shellder twice". Now to me, this seems like insane copium from someone who went from an undefeated SCL season to disappointing performances in LCWC and LC Open. Your tournament life is on the line just bring a Shellder Game Two. However, this made me want to check most LC tournament finals, since if so many people thought Shellder was broken, then we would see players at the final step of winning a tournament bringing it and winning with it right? So with updated data from when I first did it in June to now include up to Week 7 of SCL IV, here is a spreadsheet on Shellder win-loss, and player win-loss both when using and against Shellder.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CkLJZE_7ag8Fsp7H6f6BfUinTpZ-OG_55WmVJUv_IW4/edit?usp=sharing

With these statistics in mind, here are the takeaways I get from them:

• Shellder is not a closer. Out of the seven finals/tiebreaks looked at (LCWL + tiebreak, 2023 Open, 2023 LCPL tiebreak, LCWC, 2024 Open, and 2024 LCPL), Shellder won 3 games out of 10 total, two being from unserious games in LC Open XII. When the most important games are on the line, you shouldn't be passing Shellder the ball.
• Shellder is not the super sweeper. In 34 total games with 36 appearances, Shellder averaged 1.26 KOs per game. Only two games had Shellder KO over half of an opponent's team, and only three games had Shellder pick up 3 KOs. 35% of games did not see Shellder get a single KO.
• Shellder doesn't win often. With the data tracked, Shellder averages a 38.89% win rate. Of the 29 players who appear over the tracked time, only 10 have a >=50% win rate with Shellder (34.48%), while 13 players have a >=50% win rate against Shellder (44.82%).

Shellder has never been broken or uncompetitive, and I'm confident that's not gonna start now either. Since the numbers are finally out of the way, let's respond to the SCL players' concerns.

ive wanted this thing gone forever, never stopped wanting to ban it. i think its baffling that shellder is somehow legal after last lcpl, and even more incredible that it has remained legal. this thing has an outstanding ability of just robbing games like its nobodys business its insane.

As the data show, Shellder was not winning in LCWL, 2023's LCPL, LCWC, or 2024's LCPL at high rates or at all. In the games tracked, you have an above-average win rate against Shellders while you don't have a win with Shellder.

yes, saying "every team gets 6-0ed by a specific shellder set" is lazy, but its way more deep than that. multiple sets are able to 6-0 lots of teams, its really easy to just revolutionize the shellder metagame and run away with an undeserved win.

i used to be an avid defender of this, albeit mostly because of holtorb existing and a lot of the trends it forced making this thing a pretty terrible bring. its winrate and usage rate across holtorb meta will back this up, but with holtorb gone i do truly think it is too much and only is bad for the tier. this no longer is the case through its showcases both in scl and lpl and theres a large amount of games shellder is able to just completely steal.

shellder always felt uncompetitive, even in voltorb-hisui meta. even though it had way less opportunities of setting up, the fear of 'hypothetical shellder' was always real, theres always the one set that wins against every team no matter what

running ttm? stellar 3 atks. running foongus mudbray? sub tera rock. running scarf foo? fairy/ghost 3 atks. its terrible to gameplan when the opponent has it because always gotta save tera for it

Also shown in the data, Shellders are not running away with games. On average they are getting one kill, then getting traded. Over a third of the games listed have Shellder go without getting a KO. As for the "undeserved win" part, I understand the frustration of losing to the one niche Shellder set that beats your team, but we shouldn't then bash the person who brought a unique set and won with it. In this LPL game vs Fulgur, I built and played my team to take advantage of Snubbull which he was commonly using, and made my Shellder 14 speed to get a surprise KO on the Choice Scarf Gastly I was expecting to go against. Did I steal this game away with better building and gameplan?

Yes in the past two weeks of SCL (Weeks 6 & 7), Shellder has gone 4-1 with it's only loss being to another Shellder, but in Weeks 4 & 5 it was 0-2 without getting a single KO. Multiple other offensive water types that previously would have never shown up on a person's team before Voltorb-Hisui's ban like Finizen, Wingull, Corphish, and Buizel have all made SCL appearances with varying levels of success. This ropes into a point that Hacker brought up later in his post.

its way easier for it to get setup oppurtunities with holtorb gone and grookey being on the decline, which what was stopping me from supporting any action on this earlier but that was also bc holtorb was clearly more of a problem at the time.

With the many offensive waters that are getting used at the SCL level currently, why aren't yall using Grookey or more Electric types? In Weeks 4-7 across the twenty games, there's been 1 Grookey, 1 Wattrel, 2 Magnemites, and 3 Elekids. Shocking that Shellder and all the other Water types are gonna thrive when they have no super-effective moves at risk of going their way. Yes, I am also hypocritical since I am also not using any of those mons, but I'm also not an SCL player in yall's bubble meta where Shellder has somehow become the all-powerful with the same sets we've known it's gonna run since 2022.

i encourage our tier leaders to give us a suspect on this immediately instead of wasting a few months when we clearly have the public support anyways

with shellder banned some stuff may get annoying like torchic but this one has its own ban shouts atp, but yea i do think shellder deserves a suspect test asap

Finally, this topic somehow confuses me the most. Where is the outcry for the Shellder ban that's not their posts? Voltorb-Hisui has been banned for just over a month now (I started working on this on the 29th), and before Monday there was one metagame discussion post that had nothing to do with Shellder. The LC Discord lacks the mass support for a Shellder ban, totaling 50 messages in the past month. The majority of them are in the context of SCL games where a Shellder is before our eyes, otherwise bro is NOT getting around town.

This message from last week is also how I feel about Shellder. It isn't a problem in the tier, but I wouldn't complain if it disappeared. I think it's too soon to look at potentially banning Shellder and more time is needed for things to stabilize. Assuming the masses started the begging yall are saying is happening for Shellder's ban on Monday with Eric's post, then it hasn't even been 48 hours. Shellder had one good week in one tournament after almost two years of struggling to find success. This is an insane overreaction for Mr. Potential when it's most likely going to waste it all again.

 

[Éric]

hey man you have a good heart but the wrong arguments. stats alone dont determine whether mons are broken or not, especially if they are 2 years and 6 metagames old. i dont really care at all about shellder’s winrate in 2022. if you think shellder isnt broken, you tackle it by saying maybe the grookey thing that you mentioned, speak about its possibilities to set up, its possible matchup dependence, new checks that might be arising, sets that you might think are actually more flawed than given credit for, etc. you can also use recent data AND back it up with observations and deductions about the metagame and shellders place in it, but raw numbers say nothing, and irrelevant raw numbers do even less

 

[Greedy_eb]

hey man you have a good heart but the wrong arguments. stats alone dont determine whether mons are broken or not, especially if they are 2 years and 6 metagames old. i dont really care at all about shellder’s winrate in 2022. if you think shellder isnt broken, you tackle it by saying maybe the grookey thing that you mentioned, speak about its possibilities to set up, its possible matchup dependence, new checks that might be arising, sets that you might think are actually more flawed than given credit for, etc. you can also use recent data AND back it up with observations and deductions about the metagame and shellders place in it, but raw numbers say nothing, and irrelevant raw numbers do even less

Valid, it was to paint the picture that Shellder has never been a problem and segway into an argument like this and that the majority of claims that yall were making are wrong, but 4 am me didn’t add the current day Shellder “problem” and its numerous solutions section. Using what’s happened with Shellders in the past imo is still good to look at though for an idea of how things I think are likely to play out.

For the most recent Shellder games, its aiming to coming in the mid-late game when certain defensive mons are chipped enough or Tera is burnt to either win the game by itself or set a teammate up for victory. The lack of more pronounced counters in the teambuilder like Grookey and Electric types gives Shellder more opportunities to setup on physical attackers that can’t threaten it super effectively. Moves that either prevent Shellder from setting up or allow for Shellder to be revenge killed like Taunt, Roar, and Endure Vullaby are also not seeing much usage and is something that should be considered.

Most of the matchup dependence that Shellder has is currently off the lack of Grookey and Electrics, and what Tera it’s running. In your game vs tko, tko makes an arguably bad play by deciding to Tera his half HP knocked off Shellder, and is only allowed to get away with it because you make a bad play of clicking Knock Off a second time. If you were scared of Tera Ghost you just end up in the same situation that happened so you might as well click the move that covers for the Tera Fairy. You shouldn’t be scared of Protect, since it would have actually given your Snubbull a free switch-in and bring the Shellder to +1 instead of +3 that happened. Tko basically fished that you would make the bad click and you did, and it allowed him to win that game.

For the Envy Tazz game, it’s a lot easier to point out the flaw. Envy decided to forgo more defensive Teras/moves on his Mudbray when teambuilding and gets punished for it.
Foongus’ “bad” Tera type for this specific Shellder means that he’s always going to lose to Tera Rock. This is hardly a robbery of a game when the player brings a team 6-0 by a common enough set, and should not fall upon the Shellder for exposing a team that loses to Shellder.

New checks to Shellder don’t exist, it’s the same stuff we’ve had all gen that the SCL players are neglecting in the teambuilder and rightfully getting punished for with either bad clicks or bad teambuilding decisions. I do not follow the Shellder metagame enough to know what the actual good or bad sets are, but the Shellder user has to pick the one set that actually wins a game while the person against Shellder can be the 15 sets that doesn’t let it win.

In summary, Shellder had one week of success taking advantage of players that disrespected it in the teambuilder. Now that it has reminded players it’s still a threat, we should expect more offensive and defensive team/move choices to get brought that will limit Shellder’s ability to “steal” games. Taking action on it now would be jumping the gun by not letting the Shellder counterplay redevelop itself in the meta.

 

[Hacker]

Finally, this topic somehow confuses me the most. Where is the outcry for the Shellder ban that's not their posts? Voltorb-Hisui has been banned for just over a month now (I started working on this on the 29th), and before Monday there was one metagame discussion post that had nothing to do with Shellder. The LC Discord lacks the mass support for a Shellder ban, totaling 50 messages in the past month. The majority of them are in the context of SCL games where a Shellder is before our eyes, otherwise bro is NOT getting around town.

Metagame Post in thread 'Metagame Discussion'

May 29, 2024

I couldn't keep up with CG for the first half of the year because of irl stuff, but I'm back now with a newer perspective on meta. Overall, I don't at all understand the doom and gloom, nor do I understand why some of these candidates are even being considered for a suspect. With the exception of one Pokemon I think this meta is mostly fine, but still at an underdeveloped stage. I'll go from least problematic suspect candidate to most problematic:

5. Tera
The arguments for banning tera have not changed since last year, nor have the people making them really. I don't think many are...

• tazz

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Metagame Post in thread 'Metagame Discussion'

Jun 13, 2024

I'm glad players I respect such as Scottie, Colin, Hacker, tazz, etc. have decided to speak up about the state of the metagame. I just wanted to publicize my support for some changes. Really, I would just like to see a playable metagame before the time SCL rolls around this year. I don't have much unique perspectives to add here, but I wanted to put support in for the mons I find banworthy: Voltorb-H (uncompetitive), Gothita(uncompetitive), and Shellder(broken). I prefer a Voltorb suspect the most, but all 3 feel problematic to me. For the record, I don't mind stale metagames. If I need "a...

• tko

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• 
• 

Metagame Post in thread 'Metagame Discussion'

May 20, 2024

Posting in these LC Subforums for the first time in a long time to comment on the state of the metagame.

I just got knocked out of the LC Open in which was by far my earliest exit I have had while doing LC Opens and while it was partially indictive of how I played, surrounded by my own mishaps is what I can only describe as the Worst littlecup metagame I have ever played. For context everytime ive taken exit from open, its been to SCL players, however in this metagame losing to someone ive just heard of last week is now in the realm of possibility, and it happened.

I have always...

• Scottie

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could link more but there definently is enough outcry thats been done in this thread

nothing about shellder has changed with holtorb except it getting more chances to setup, and general trends like grookey usage going down. looking at it with only the start of this month is a little disingenuous imo even if at the time there are posts from like me and reg defending shellder. grookey gets used a lot less now because its deadweight in a lot of matchups with guys like foongus and tink skyrocketing in usage, alongside it losing holtorb to pivot on and the omnipresent dark types we deal with that all own it. lot more drawback to using it now compared to then. you can even look at the posts from like before lcpl and you will still see people annoyed about shellder. imo we clearly have enough division about shellder to where a test is warranted, and having a suspect test doesn't mean itll just be banned it just lets the community decide and finally be able to put discussion on it to a rest

also not to mention people get tired of complaining about the same stuff after doing it for so long. after making a good numbers of anti holtorb posts i just stopped posting or made clear low effort posts bc it just wasn't worth the time or effort anymore

 

[Hacker]

Hi. With SCL over I am mainly here just to spew some of my current thoughts on the metagame

Right now, I think that the meta is much more enjoyable than it was with Hisuian Voltorb around. I have hit a point where I think that I would be happy with the tier without any further tiering action. There are definently a lot of stinkers in the current meta that I dislike existing but I think that the current meta is a lot more skill-expressive and engaging than our previous one, and that it is most certainly more enjoyable. I'm mainly going to be talking about the things that I dislike in this post. However, it should be noted that I still enjoy current meta and find it enjoyable.

Foongus wars, and more importantly spore, are incredibly annoying. Everyone is using this thing an insane amount so its pretty common to see them. Clicking Spore really is just essentially OHKOing anything that comes in when we're playing a fast paced meta like this one. I've started running Sleep Talk on Mienfoo because of it. However, its still very largely RNG dependent on if you pull a good move or wake up on the right turn which sucks in a meta where every turn matters.

I am mainly grouping these two together because of this game admittedly. You can kind of solve this game by saying that I played poorly, and you wouldn't really be wrong. However, the threat of having to dance around both Shellder and Gothita means that you have to play the entire game on edge and I lost this game because of one bad Tera turn. Goth also is partly responsible for the Foongus wars because it is a lot easier to trap Mareanie because it doesn't threaten it with Spore.

Fire-types right now are really broken and almost single-handedly invalidate Tinkatink structures. This is because Tinkatink teams play more slow and allow them in more. Its very challenging to cover them defensively because we only really have two resists in the entire meta and they either get smoked by the respective coverge they use. They force offensive gameplay revolving around letting them in as little as possible which will always push the meta teams in a more offensive direction. However, I wouldn't really act on either of these two because LC will just be offensive by nature anyways. If I had to complain about one more it would be Magby because its not nearly as Tera reliant though.

If theres one thing I do REALLY like about current meta though its that...
We were able to see a lot of cool brings in SCL that all had pretty decent showings despite being uncommon in usage. Lokifan smoking with Finizen was really fun to see. Me continuing my love-hate relationship with Wingull was fun.. and I didn't miss a Hurricane despite getting smoked by one! Chinchou was able to see a lot more usage and its not solidified itself as a very strong mon that will see usage for the rest of this tiers lifespan. Elekid was able to pretty decently replace Hisuian Holtorb as a fast Electric and see playtime without Hisuian Voltorbs oppressive factors.

Happy Thanksgiving!

 

[Colin]

I had a disappointing tournament, but I think sv lc is better than it was before the tournament with the voltorb ban. It's very offensively oriented, because it's really hard to manage offensive fire types, shellder, other 19 speeders, etc. Most speed control fails vs sub + protect/ghost Tera, which are what make Torchic and Magby consistent. I think at least in foongus games, that Torchic may be broken because it snowballs too easily and forces defensive teras on most teams. Magby is an easier to use breaker, but it doesn't snowball quite as hard without speed boost so I think its about as good but a lot less oppressive.

In general there are 2 dominant structures imo. The best one is the foongus war structures which attempt to build in a way that the foongus war is as favorable as possible with threats such as gothita, fire types, alolashrew, sub stunky, vull vs some teams, and more. Spore is a really good move, so their offensive threats are easier to get turns with and in general it's easier to avoid Foo losing its Eviolite with them. The second dominant structure is Tink Toed Mareanie + vullaby centric offense (imo scarf is needed here right now). These teams are worse into foongus unless their 6th mon is a Magby, and they have to predict vs fire types and alolashrew well. Air Balloon 12 speed Tinkatink can gain an advantage if used properly vs most leads, but if the lead sequence gets predicted or the Tinkatink is eviolite I consider lead mus harder with this structure. Vullaby and the fast breaker of choice are more likely to have a field day with better longevity, but the structure itself tends to get hunted and is in general worse because of lower builder flexibility and sometimes a turn disadvantage without Spore and toed/tink giving turns.

Offense teams with shellder or Torchic are also good right now, sometimes they fall into the foongus war structures though. If they don't, they're usually more annoyed by Foongus teams early on but are plenty capable of making up the difference later on, plus sometimes an under supported foongus wins the war anyway.

 

[Envy]

Some thoughts about Foongus and Spore

After Voltorb-Hisui ban, Foongus became the most popular Mienfoo answer for some reasons, those being the capability of also switching into Mudbray (besides the rare 20 Atk variant), being immune to Spore, and mostly because of clicking Spore itself.

While Foongus itself not being close to unbalanced or broken, Spore makes it completely disable an opposing Pokémon for a few turns, which is really bad for structures that don't run Foongus as their main fighting resist, like Mareanie, Koffing and Snubbull teams.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-805725

The problem with Foongus getting popular is that the teams will need ways to deal with Spore, which could be a Magby (Takes 63% from Sludge Bomb so it can't be considered a real answer, since it can be KO'd if rocks are up and gets poisoned), a Safety Goggles mon (which is a bad item compared to Eviolite and will only work in Foongus matchups during specific scenarios), Sleep Talk (is only decent in Mienfoo but still inferior to Fake Out while also being luck reliant) and lastly Foongus itself.

With all the options being said, the first relies on predictions, 3rd and 4th are cheesy and inferior to standard variants and using Foongus yourself is easier and straight up better than the previous options, since it deals with Spore and clicks it itself.

What does that imply?
Simple, almost every team running Foongus, and the ones that doesn't have it, gets suboptimal or no ways to deal with Spore and have to lose a mon for a few turns, which could be (and usually is) crucial.
While writing this, I watched some post-Voltorb SCL Replays, and it's clear that once people started using Foongus, most games had it in both sides.

Foongus is not only using a broken move, but like Voltorb, it is restricting teambuilding, which is problematic, since its only actual good counter is itself.

Despite already having the problem of removing an opposing Pokémon, sleep is itself luck reliant, which is another reasong for it to be considered banworthy.

Since Foongus is (obviously) not close to be banworthy, Spore/sleep should be looked at because of all the complications it does against the metagame.

 

[Kipkluif]

Spore is not problematic at all on toedscool or shroomish. Hence, I think you can argue its foongus and not spore if it is broken (idk and idc if it is). However, sleep clause is also weird and I lowkey wouldnt mind just banning it instead. No real hard takes to either side, just food for thought.

 

[Fernanch]

Spore is not problematic at all on toedscool or shroomish. Hence, I think you can argue its foongus and not spore if it is broken (idk and idc if it is). However, sleep clause is also weird and I lowkey wouldnt mind just banning it instead. No real hard takes to either side, just food for thought.

Shoroomish sucks, and toed has a moveslot problem, so you can't use this as a argument man

 

[Hacker]

I wholeheartedly agree with Envy's post. Foongus, or rather sleep as a whole, force incredibly uncompetitive gameplay because of the insane amount of variables that can happen in game that neither side know with certainty. Foongus is on a huge majority of teams because it is its best counter to itself. That inherently isn't uncompetitive and shouldn't be the reason that we should ban sleep, but it is incredibly punishing with minimal drawback even if you get the turn wrong as the Foongus user. This doesn't even mention the insane restrictions Foongus places on teambuilding due to the sheer lack of good answers to it that are okay with taking Spore. Few things I want to address though.

Just use Sleep Talk
Using Sleep Talk itself is very RNG reliant. If you have to use an RNG reliant move to beat an RNG reliant strategy, I think that speaks for itself

Won't we lose another fighting check due to Foongus being unviable?
No. Foongus without Spore is a fine mon and it can just use Stun Spore. This is incredibly less punishing while still being a viable move for the mon

Won't banning sleep make Gothita broken because it would smoke both fighting resist?
No. However, If one element is broken we should ban it even if it makes one element better. If something is problematic after we ban something, we ban it. Also, Shadow Tag is stupid anyways but besides the point lmfao.

 

[Kipkluif]

Shoroomish sucks, and toed has a moveslot problem, so you can't use this as a argument man

this is exactly the argument

 

[emptywisdom]

Hey LC, sleep curmudgeon here, i regret to inform you that i must put a stop to this nonsense.

I prefer SVLC to remain in it's current state with no action. I find great joy in the game, as a builder and a player.

PRO SLEEP

1. Nothing about Sleep is broken;
   • I am in a drought of sincere arguments for Sleep Ban. If you have a sincere argument, please tell me : )
   • Sleep has already been nerfed by Sleep Clause and makes Sleep users have 3 moves in some matchups. This really matters for other sleep users that have better moves to click, and they usually do not run spore. If anything, it could be argued that Foongus is broken, but that isn't because Spore is broken. FTR, I would argue that Foongus isn't broken, because outside of Spore it only has 3 innately useful moves.
   • Sleep is an appropriately strong one-time resource that needs to be considered offensively and defensively when building. It has a snug place in the metagame and removing Sleep would remove certain defensive lines of play and cause a major paradigm shift. I cannot fathom why we would need that.
   • Sleep requires an investment of time and attention to understand. This makes Sleep a Skillful mechanic. This also means that if Sleep Ban, we are losing an interesting and complex part of SVLC.
2. There are so many options;
   • The metagame surrounding Sleep is not centralised to Foongus. There are plenty of other pokemon that use Sleep and pokemon that are Sleep or Spore immune.
   • Foongus is a convenience for many players because its defensive profile rests at an intersection between several key threats, including Mienfoo, Mudbray, Glimmet (via absorbing Toxic Debris). These are some of the real reasons that many players use Foongus. Its a very good "glue" pokemon outside of using Spore.
   • Despite all of that, I struggle to believe that Foongus is over-centralising. You could simply choose not to use Foongus. This Ban Foongus point is a self-report of predictable building habits and is therefore a SKILL ISSUE. The pokemon only runs 4 moves. As far as I am concerned, anybody who cannot build a gameplan to exploit Foongus should not participate in tiering action out of sheer incompetence.
3. Weaponised RNG is COMPETITIVE, as a mechanic,
   • Sleep is well-hated as a source of uncertainty. This frustrates some players because they do not have control over when they wake up (1-3 turns). This loss of control and the following emotional reaction do not convince me that Sleep is unhealthy in SVLC. The root of this argument is ephemeral and ignorant and i do not think we should ban a foundational mechanic because some players are angry about getting spored.
   • There is a misconception that RNG is inherently uncompetitive. This is true in some ways, but untrue in other ways. It all depends on how the RNG is interacting with the gameplay. In the case of SVLC Sleep, Spore becomes one means of "punching up". By inflicting my superior opp. with a dose of RNG-based turn denial, I may roll an advantage that I might not otherwise be able to find. This is a competitive interaction, because I am challenging my superior opp.'s knowledge of sleep play. This is normal and healthy.

Thanks for reading that.
Until next time -empty

 

[Fernanch]

you accused me of not reading their posts, which is hilarious because you didnt read my post.

I just said that bc I am tired today, but I just said this because of how you pharafrased that first phrase, sorry for that. But now reading your post better, foongus has stun spore that can run over spore, saying that spore users only have 3 moves is like saying that water is wet, the argument on complexity is kindda weird, because sleep is know in all gens to be a broken mechanic

Plenty of pokemon sleep immune: toedscool and other foongus, or vulla sets obligated to use overcoat, foongus having sleep is not just a convenience, if it loses sleep, the bray check role is already done by toed, and foongus gets 2 shoted by bray with rocks, the glim check role is actually good, mienfoo check role it gets outclassed by mare without it.

Anyways, I will just leave saying that arguing that weponized rng is a competitive mechanic is a dumb argument. As players in a competitive game, we always want the game to have less and less rng. Arguing that rng, in any form, is competitive is really dumb. I see that you said that some rng is good, but like, I disagree with this. If we could remove 1/16 rolls, we would. If we could remove critical hits, we would. If we could make 90% moves 100%, we would. The sludge bomb poison rng is a decent thing to have, but I am on the opinion that the less rng the better for us, and now I will say some arguments from myself Abt sleep

In my vision, sleep is just unescessary rng to have. Like you can argue all that you want saying that it is needed, it is good for the meta, but like, it is not even the rng that we are talking Abt here. Basically disabling a Mon for 2 turns is already a huge thing. Sleep is just a broken concept on its core, and that is why sv ou banned it. It wasn't just because of darkrai, it was because the mechanic reached its break point after years of beign freed, and we can see that.

Before you say "if it is so broken, why don't we ban it on other gens?"

We should

Anyways I prob said a lot of things, 1am here and I am tired, gonna use spore on myself

 

[emptywisdom]

I just said that bc I am tired today, but I just said this because of how you pharafrased that first phrase, sorry for that.

its all good, not a big deal. thank you for your reply.

But now reading your post better, foongus has stun spore that can run over spore,

true, but its not nearly as good. definitely not a replacement.

saying that spore users only have 3 moves is like saying that water is wet,

I say this because it is a genuine disadvantage of using Foongus. Other pokemon have better moves to use and Foongus does not.
Without spore, Toedscool is barely effected, for example. It loses one set of many. Foongus, on the other hand, is devastated.

the argument on complexity is kindda weird,

How is it weird?

sleep is know in all gens to be a broken mechanic

How is it broken? I do not know..

Plenty of pokemon sleep immune: toedscool and other foongus, or vulla sets obligated to use overcoat,

i think chespin, sap sipper blitzle, overcoat varoom, and insomnia spinarak have unexplored potential.

foongus having sleep is not just a convenience,

When i said "Foongus is a convenience" i mean that it is one of few obvious answers in teambuilding. It fits too many roles on a defensive checklist to not be considered by even the most amateur builder. This does not mean that it is required or overpowered, just a good pokemon.

if it loses sleep, the bray check role is already done by toed, and foongus gets 2 shoted by bray with rocks, the glim check role is actually good, mienfoo check role it gets outclassed by mare without it.

You could easily build a team around a different sleep pokemon and use these other options.

As players in a competitive game, we always want the game to have less and less rng. I see that you said that some rng is good, but like, I disagree with this.

ok, but why?

If we could remove 1/16 rolls, we would. If we could remove critical hits, we would. If we could make 90% moves 100%, we would.

why? If you want a serious competitive environment with no random elements, go play chess.

The battle engine of pokemon clearly relies on all of these random elements to create an interesting experience, where not everything is guaranteed. This is the game design of pokemon, and it should not be sanitized.

If we removed every RNG element this game would be extremely boring. the better player would always take advantage and always win. how would any new player gain experience piloting advantage state? A game like that would be "competitive" to a fault. it would be unhealthy to remove all RNG.

The sludge bomb poison rng is a decent thing to have,

Thank you for admitting it.

Basically disabling a Mon for 2 turns is already a huge thing.

Yes it is. Its a strong status effect.

Sleep is just a broken concept on its core, and that is why sv ou banned it. It wasn't just because of darkrai, it was because the mechanic reached its break point after years of beign freed, and we can see that.

I don't play SVOU and so I can't comment on Sleep in SVOU. I think that Sleep is fine in SVLC.

Before you say "if it is so broken, why don't we ban it on other gens?"

We should

I also can't comment on this.

Anyways I prob said a lot of things, 1am here and I am tired, gonna use spore on myself

Goodnight ferny thanks for talking pokemon. hope you reply, at least to the questions

 

[Éric]

just use taunt foo like in every other gen

 

[Eeveeto]

just use taunt foo like in every other gen

Alternatively:

 

[Zcarlett]

Agree with the sentiment that Foongus/Sleep is constricting, but would also like to add that we shouldn't have a sleep ban as a default going into future gens and we should handle it on a meta by meta basis.

 

[wesh papillon]

Foongus spore incentivises players to use the only skillful archetype (regen balance)

You triangles all want to use wee-woo offense so ofc u think sleep in broken

 

[babyboyblues]

foongus is really good but unsure its broken. tko and i brought foongus like literally every week, around halfway pt of scl we were like maybe we should use another fight check in case we get goth'd but then the others were just so much weaker in comparison while also making u foongus weak. goth is not great but unless its sleep talk they still have to outplay u or sack something AND goth is an overall bad mon so its risky for them to bring it. tauntfoo doesnt help much in practice cus it doesnt let u switch into spore and now u dont have fake out prio.

i personally think its a centralizing force for sure, i like foongus wars and i think theyre incredibly skill expressive so i dont mind keeping it, i think new gen players who arent used to foongus wars tend to do worse with them. choosing the correct mon to sack to sleep is also skill expression, and techs for it are unoptimal but relatively low risk (theres also quite a few techs for it that are underexplored atm).

if u were to ban foongus/sleep it should be foongus tho, foongus would be fine without sleep yes but sleep overall is balanced in sv cus the only other viable mon with it is toedscool which has the downside of -prio so it has to be careful with when it reveals spore.

tldr: if u lose foongus war its cus ur bad. lily has an 80% wr vs me in my foongus war tier (sample size 120), im significantly positive vs everyone else ive played it with, tho tazz would prob rinse me if we played

 

[emptywisdom]

Hey LC, im back again with just a thought:

ban knock off.
knock is clearly the strongest and most broken move in the format. it is more centralising than sleep, 3 or even 4 moveslot investments of knock off is not unlikely. the ubiquity of knock off is so oppressive that psychic and ghost types are basically unviable.

its more broken than sleep, or foongus.

---

still not convinced?
lets look at the top of the viability rankings.
S - ,
A+ - ,

3 of these 4 pokemon are notoriously good at using knock off (and the last one is mudbray). they are at the top of the viability rankings because in part they are the best knock off users. but they have another thing in common: these pokemon all switch into knock off. i cant stress it enough. for some pokemon, viability lives and dies based on how it relates to the move knock off.

---

if that point didnt reach you; you are being deliberately unreasonable. but i will give one more point for good measure.

tinkatink has the perfect traits to punish knock off. it resists knock, AND has item removal with its pickpocket ability. despite having native item removal, tinkatink STILL runs knock off! its such a broken move that this anti-synergy is preferrable to not running knock.

---

its not okay honestly. they're feeding knock off to the cattle. they're putting knock off in public water supplies. they're building houses out of knock off. for gods sakes folks, knock off is present in the LCers body on a cellular level for several years after exposure to physical vullaby.

---

i dont want a knock off ban. even tho its broken and centralising. my point is that a lot of the format is broken and centralising. this is the nature of the beast.

if foongus, or sleep is powerful and overcentralising to the point of being unhealthy and banworthy, knock off is more so.

but we all realise that knock off is actually fine. the only reason for a ban spore argument is an emotional reaction to getting spored or as a convenient target for a pathological compulsion to stir the pot.

 

[Roldski32]

Sleep status will always be strong in LC, but its not something I would immediately say its broken or banworthy.

Spore Foongus is and will always be annoying to play against, and that's my experience since I first started playing LC in Gen7. Personally, I respected it when I faced one and its normal for Foongus to 5v6 a team by just sporing something, but Gen9 is a different case. For one, Ferroseed and to a lesser extent, Natu (this mon is going to be bad in a tier with vull ofc, but i still mentioned it bc of SS no Vull meta) is not in the game, which leaves literally Foongus itself as the only viable option for blocking Spore, and this really shows in the builder. I don't use Foongus because spore is stupid/sleep is broken, I used Foongus because its the only Spore switch-in that doesn't get punished by Sludge Bomb. Seeing this Foongus war this gen isn't anything crazy at all even if it happened way too frequently this gen, but that's just me because it has already happened before all the way back in Gen7. But if Foongus/Sleep might get suspected, its definitely Foongus. I don't see any good reason to justify banning Sleep as a whole when only Foongus was mainly abusing it the most. Even something akin to Vulpix in SS Sun team crippling a Frillish with Hypnosis is not enough to justify a Sleep ban if you asked me.

I want my Ferro back, i miss that mon ;-;