Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread

Fiend

the hound.
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I'm not really here to fully weigh in on Torchic; it is an undeniably infuriating Pokemon to play against, and it is undeniably potent. However, strictly speaking, I'm noticing some issues with how people talk about it. It's actually rather annoying to me, so while this won't be the most productive post it's here to hopefully get something more productive said.

First off, your list of checks and counters blows; only about 4 of those are worth using consistently, and none of them are particularly easy to tack on to any ol' team. Including pieces of shit like Gible, who I greatly enjoy using but it fucking is not a good Pokemon, only implies that Torchic is harder to handle than it is. Furthermore, "SR" is not a suitable solution in and of itself, especially since for the most part Torchic will take only a single hit or 2 weak priority attacks in a match. It really comes across that playing and how matches actually tend to go and building more than just a single style of a team aren't particularly relevant in this discussion, which is frankly wrong.

Secondly, I think comparing Torchic to Yanma is a bit of a gross exaggeration. They have parallels, but Yanma is just so much better. 14 speed vs 20 speed, bp vs sleep move, only mostly gaining momentum vs literally always gaining momentum, etc. I don't think this comparison is really worth anything; probably don't compare Torchic to anything besides maybe Cutiefly (where they can be the two sides of the same coin to better frame your points).

Plus there are a few issues with the Torchic + Diglett core, mostly in that it works better on paper since Diglett is a particularly frail Pokemon, and the duo have about as much to offer defensively as Carvahna. This is something I recall being popular when Torchic initially exploded like 2 SPLs ago or so. Then it wasn't since it sucks so much to have 2 not immediately amazing pieces of paper on a team.

Personally, I think Sam is the only one framing this discussion in a way that actually holds water. What he's saying has a few problems, but largely the core of his points are correct and for one, he's looking at broader part of how Torchic sits in the meta than anyone else really is. No one besides a few council members (who smartly aren't sticking their necks out here for the billions time to beat this horse even more dead, like jesus christ) really seems to 'get' how to talk about Torchic:

You compare it to what it almost is, then say how it is very much not that particular thing mostly to its benefit. And you use BP as an addition to why playing against it is such horseshit and not the aspect which is broken, but instead what may or may not in your view force the damn chicken to be a broken part of the metagame. Literally every other approach is deeply flawed becomes no comparison works, BP itself isn't deemed busted by enough of the community, Torchic is nothing without comparison in its wallbreaking/hard hitting front. Torchic is greater than the sum of its parts, and that's the only way it can be called broken. No single aspect about Torchic is game breaking, but I would contend that it is, at the absolute minimum, awfully close to being broken.

Granted, this only works if you're trying to argue in favor of Torchic being busted, but it is a similar enough process for calling it a fair Pokemon so I hope you can figure it out; god help you if you can't.
 
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Merritt

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Moving away from the Torchic and Diglett stuff and to get some more discussion, what're some non-standard mons or sets that you've been using lately? The kind of thing that gets people in chat going "the hell does this pokemon even do" basically.

Recently I did a Hoppip team on a whim, and it was surprisingly fun to use. Not a good pokemon, not by a long shot, but Strength Sap is such a good move that it makes up for a lot of faults. Status powder helps too, and a resistance to fighting is always handy. Ice making it blow up means that it can't check or counter a bunch of things that would otherwise be amazingly helpful, and it offers free switches to a bunch of things, but Hoppip was just flat out fun to use.

While not as hopeless as Hoppip is, I've also been trying out Shell Smash Dwebble lately and while it's still not good as the solitary sweeper, it's worked quite well paired with a secondary sweeper or good cleaner. SturdyJuice Shell Smash is still great even a gen late and setup sweepers that can beat Abra are always pleasant. Main thing that was unfortunate for Dwebble sweeping I found, even more than the continued omnipresence of fighting types, is actually Onix since it means you not only have to keep hazards cleared through the game to let Dwebble actually set up without too much difficulty, but the stupid rock snake actually works alright as a Dwebble answer since Endure means it forces Dwebble into a 50/50 of Knock Off vs EQ and Weak Armor just tanks an EQ and usually results in a dead Dwebble. Meanwhile, Rock Blasting a Mudbray switchin is soul crushing.

Suicide lead hazard setter Dwebble isn't nearly as good as it used to be last gen (and even then it wasn't amazing) since hazard removal and onix are still everywhere.

So what interesting mons have ya'll been trying out?
 
ive been trying out a few neat mons lately.

i built a z wring out snivy team with Luthier a couple weeks back and it turned out really solid. most teams run something like foongus as their primary snivy check and zwro just destroys that after a bit of chip (2-5 hp chipped or evio gone means it cant switch into storm and live the +2 breakneck blitz). its particularly nice cause stuff like foongus is really easy to knock off. defensive vulla is also really easy to ko with it, depending on the rolls you dont even need chip and if you do its just a couple hp.

i also built a voltturn team with riolu and larvesta a couple weeks ago thats pretty solid. i know fender has been having consistent success with it on ladder. larv is pretty cute right now because hazards are really easy to keep off the field especially if you run double hazard removal which is actually very viable considering how many good defoggers and spinners there are right now. riolu is a really nice cleaner once dark types have been removed. i'm not gonna go into too much depth about it because tcr just posted his great riolu team and you can just read that.

another interesting pokemon at the moment is honedge. it can pursuit trap abra and also beat fairies which means it pairs really nicely with fighters. having a ghost on your team also means people are a bit more hesitant to click high jump kick with their foos. honedge can also run sacred sword or rock slide depending on your team to beat pawniard or birds (i generally prefer rock slide especially because it doesnt miss).

i built a couple teams with karrablast just on a whim and its surprisingly good. a 120 bp unmissable stab is really really nice. it also resists fight and grass which makes it reasonably easy to throw on a team. knock off is a great move on any offensive pokemon and you can also run aerial ace to hit fighters.

last i've been having a lot of success with willohex gastly paired with toxic spikes (mareanie). toxic spikes are really nice right now cause even if snivy wants to defog them it gets poisoned. and generally something taking 12% chip every turn is great for getting kos. an important thing for a team like this is to have solid checks to birds that want to rain on your parade. willohex gastly is also really strong on its own and is really easy to throw on teams. i highly recommend you give this a shot.

hope you enjoyed! please post your interesting mons here too :)
 

tcr

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I strongly recommend people try out Riolu. It's so versatile to use, and to boot is also fun as hell. Riolu is cool as one of those Pokemon that just fills so many different niches in practice than on paper and supports teams in a variety of ways. Riolu is extra insurance against so many different archetypes of teams, from being a dedicated cleaner with the standard Copycat High Jump Kick spam, to being an answer to Webs teams to Hazard stack teams to even Aurora Veil teams. Copycat means that it kinda functions in a similar way to like Ditto in like BW, where it takes whatever is in front of it and rebounds the move. Sticky Web, for example, is a one-sided tactic. By that I mean it is only useful when only one side of the battlefield has it. Both sides using Sticky Web effectively means that there is not sticky web in play, and is especially useful when those teams rely so heavily on Speed control. Hazard stack is often only useful if you can maintain momentum, and when Riolu can just do everything Dwebble does but in a much more versatile slot, it nullifies the pressure that Dwebble exerts. Similarly, Aurora Veil Vulpix might try to set up on something like Vullaby or Snivy, and as you switch out into Riolu you can set up your own Aurora Veil, only yours lasts one extra turn. On paper it only really provides a 17 atk High Jump Kick with some priority, but at the cost of not being able to hit Dark-types. In practice, it functions as a psuedo rapid spinner, a psuedo U-turner, a psuedo Webs setter, hazard setter, revenge killer for offmons like Taillow, and just allows the creativity and versatility of the battler to flourish.

I've been only using the Eviolite set as a form of bulky pivoteer, as I find its ability to live one or two hits and KO certain threats while also providing insane utility so clean. That is not to say that that is it's only set however. I truly, 100% believe that Riolu could end up becoming as staple to teams as Pokemon like Magnemite, Mareanie, even Croagunk. Its ability to glue teams together in a functional way is unparalleled except maybe by Croagunk itself or Cottonee. Its versatility is amazing as well, with tech moves like Meteor Mash and Blaze Kick bopping traditional Fighting-type checks like Spritzee or Foongus. Then you can factor in Z-moves, Z-Fighting Riolu for a powerful All-out Pummeling to lure in Vullaby, Z-Copycat sets to gain that accuracy boost and ability to sweep through most teams, Swords Dance sets to wallbreak for more passive teams like Spritzee / Mudbray teams. Hell, you can run Roseli Berry Riolu for the luring of Snubbull / Spritzee allowing Pokemon like Timburr to sweep through teams, or you can run Magnet Rise Riolu as tech to beat Diglett / Onix. The possibilies are endless and can be tailored to fit your specific team and playstyle, unlike most other Pokemon that require people to play a certain way (for example there was talk about Slowpoke a little bit ago on Discord, that users like myself and Infamy didn't really agree with its strengths because of the way we like to play. it just didn't fit our style of play. Riolu doesn't really have those issues, because the utility it brings is universal to all teams).

Something that got brought up in Discord is Trick Room Spritzee paired with a trapper. Specifically, Nasty Plot Trick Room Spritzee paired with a Trapinch set, theorymonned as Z-Fighting Trapinch to trap Ferroseed, Pawniard, and non Berry Juice Magnemite. I'm interested in people's thoughts on this; I already plan to form a team around that concept, and have settled on Trapinch / Mienfoo / Spritzee / Pawniard as some form of a core. I think this concept of Trick Room spritzee is really cool, because I personally am of the opinion that the way to break the metagame and exert control over teams is intrinsically tied to Speed control. This is evidenced by my use of Riolu, that ignores the common speed tiers of Weak Armor Onix / Kabuto, fast pokemon like Elekid and Scarf Magnemite or Staryu / Wingull, and instead just bypasses all of that with its priority. I have a theory that OTR sets are a good way to micromanage and overwhelm opposing teams, similarly I am of the opinion that Speed control teams like that one atomicllamas(?) team from XY will have massive influence in a couple months. Anyway those are my thoughts, as limited as they are. I'm probably going to try running those Pokemon as well as a bunch of other cool Pokemon like Berry Juice Amaura (I think the time is right for it to come back with Flying-types like Wingull / Vullaby / Taillow / Doduo / Rufflet on a lot of teams).
 

Gummy

...three, smiles go for miles!
i've gone off about zwro snivy in discord before but i genuinely think its an amazing set. the problem with p much every zmove user except diglett is that they can take out checks, but its simply too situational to be worth it--think flyinium foo. but the thing is, literally EVERY single team has either a vullaby, grimer-a, or foongus on it, and if you send in a snivy on a grass-weak mon, guess what they're switching in? and after that it's history. at first i thought it'd be kind of gimmicky, but honestly i can't remember a single time i've brought zwro snivy and wished for another set, because snivy checks are so ridiculously common that they're just staples at this point. the reason why flyinium foo or whatever else fails is because it can only beat some of its checks--it still gets dicked by spritzee or snubs. but zwro deals with basically every snivy check, and if they somehow dont have a snivy check then a +2 zwro is still doing a truckload to anything that doesn't resist it. i hate hp ice snivy, why the hell would you stay in on a foongus or whatever that'll just switch out and regen the damage away. the only time you get screwed is if they're scarf vullaby but that's not terribly hard to scout imo.

also its super satisfying to just watch their grimer or whatever drop n_n
 

tcr

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What are people's thoughts on BW now that Carvanha has been freed and we have had a good test tournament with tons of replays available of it in action? Please the tier bashing out of your post if you respond, no one really needs to hear for 57th time how much you dislike BW if you dislike it just dont respond.

My personal thoughts from playing have been that Carvanha fits quite well in the metagame. It has shown to be not be so dominant as once feared (since it arrived on the back of 2 other suspects being banned) and is aptly checked by a variety of the metagame, and not obscure threats but staple Pokemon like Croagunk and Porygon. It has ample checks on teams with Riolu / Mienfoo / Timburr / Croagunk / Ferroseed / Lileep / Porygon / Pawniard / Foongus all checking it well, and despite the defensive nature of the tier, really doesn't get a whole lot of switchins seeing as there are several defensive options that Carvanha cannot just power through. Its a nice addition to counterbalance sand squads that people seem to think are broken, as it gives an offensive answer to checking Drilbur / Sandshrew, and gives another check to Misdreavus, another hot topic of interest in the tier. I quite enjoyed playing with it and never once felt that it was an overwhelming force in the metagame, or that it unduly influenced my teambuilding. I think so far it has been quite healthy
 
the more I look at replays and the more I analyze it, I can't help but think why we banned it in the first place. maybe it's the way I've learned to play in generations afterwards (where eviolite isn't as much of an issue due to the prevalence of knock off), but carv doesn't have the power to be the ubiquitous threat it was once thought to be. theres a ton of defensive threats that easily tank a hit, and carv is so fucking weak defensively that these checks can often ohko or come close to in return. this doesn't even mention how prio fighters basically counter it throughout a match. while typically meta changes aren't made with keeping things in check in mind, dropping previously banned threats I think carries a different mindset. if carv is not deemed as too strong outright, I think it's reasonable to look at the positive effect it can have on the meta, and providing a new offensive check to missy and other mons simply through protect is pretty neat in my book.
 
SO YOU WANT TO BE A LADDER HERO
I
NFAMY'S MARVELOUS GUIDE TO GETTING EVERYONE TO RESPECT YOUR INTERNET POKEMON SKILLS
B
Y INFAMY

So, you want to be a ladder hero. You want to be the very best, like no one ever was. You want everyone to know it, because when they click the ladder button on PS!, and click on the Little Cup ladder, they'll see your name at the top. You're gonna be a Pokemon Master.

So, how are you gonna do it?

STEP ONE.

Join the M Draft League (MDL). The MDL is where all the best ladder heroes congregate. Created by legendary ladder hero and Youtube superstar Jox, better known by his ladder alts 067jox, crippling alcoholism, 067Vegan, or ineedanewliver123, the MDL is the new sparkserver. I realize that reference is lost on pretty much all of you. The purpose of MDL is to give ladder heroes a community to bond and form friendships. They are the proletariat of Little Cup, dreaming of rising up and defeating the pretentious, bourgeois tournament players. Many now-mythical heroes, such as Osh, Fille, therealslap, All-Star Lineup, and others, found their homes in MDL. You can join MDL by simply typing /join mdl in PS, or by PMing one of their moderators on PS or Discord.

Alright, so you've joined MDL. What's next?

STEP TWO.

Steal a team. There are several ways to do this. First, you can check the RMT Archive, Team Showcase, and SM Other Teams subforums in the RMT section. Often you can find a very successful team there, like this one. Second, you can do a little digging around the forums, especially the Sample Teams or LC Dumpster threads. This method is somewhat inconsistent, especially because a lot of the samples are a bit dated, but you can find some diamonds in the rough. Third, you can steal a team from a good user playing on ladder. Popular victims for this include esteemed ladder hero dogman222 (he doesn't have a Smogon account), TheFenderStory, people who are voiced in the Little Cup room, or somebody on the ladder you see with a team you like. This takes a little bit of effort because you have to copy the sets yourself instead of just importing into your teambuilder, but it can be worthwhile. Plus, you can change a few sets, and then when you run into somebody who's seen the team before, you have some sneaky tricks up your sleeve. Finally, you can also ask politely for teams from LC roomauth or people in MDL, but this often doesn't work well, because they want to protect their position at the top of the Little Cup hierarchy, so they will only give you bad teams.

STEP THREE.

Drop everything and ladder. This step takes a long time. You just have to keep getting battle after battle. You have a social life? Not anymore. Have to do homework? Email your teacher and tell them your dog died. Need to eat dinner? No you don't. Gotta use the bathroom? Buy a catheter on Amazon. Feeling tired? You'll sleep when you're dead. The best ladder players never take breaks, they never stop laddering. If you really, desperately need to be the best, you'll have to do what they do and ladder day-and-night.

You'll need a few things before you start your laddering, though. You need a team, lots of time, a 12 pack of Gatorade, a large bucket or other receptacle for your tears, and lots and lots of Hot Pockets. Hot Pockets are the optimal sustenance for the ladder hero because they are cheap, quick, and give you lots of energy. Some of the very best ladder heroes have even landed Hot Pockets sponsorships in the past. Highly recommended, but not strictly necessary, is a copy of Thus Spoke Zarathustra by Friedrich Nietzsche. This book tells you everything you need to know when you're laddering. See someone complaining that you lucked them? Tell them to shut the fuck up, you won because you have the will to power. Feel like the LC higher-ups are jerks? Nope, that's just your brain concocting slave morality. Get lucked really badly and lose a game because of it? It's your fault for killing God.

A tip for laddering: you'll always want to lead with either Mienfoo or Onix. If you lead with anything else, people will think you are bad.

STEP FOUR.

You've topped the ladder. You've done it. Finally. After two weeks of nonstop laddering, countless boxes of Hot Pockets, Gatorade bottles strewn all about your room, your bucket full of water saltier than the Dead Sea, and your copy of Thus Spoke Zarathustra falling apart and having to be Scotch taped back together, you're at the top of the ladder. You're the best in the whole wide world. You are giddy and you can't stop laughing and your mom knocks on your door to make sure you aren't having a seizure. No, mom, I'm just the greatest Pokemon player of all time.

So, uhhh, what now?

STEP FIVE.

Build your own team. Every great ladder hero (wish killer, Solarpsy, etc.) has one team they use on the ladder and no more. This team is carefully crafted from only the best organic free-range Pokemon. But what will your team look like? Well, here's a tutorial for how to build a team for the ladder. This is the whole reason I made this post, honestly, pretty much everything above this point shouldn't be taken seriously. Don't take anything below this point too seriously either, it's all a little tongue in cheek, but this is more or less how to build a formulaic, generic Little Cup balance team.
  1. Pick a skeleton. This should be something like Mienfoo/Vullaby/Onix/Foongus, Timburr/Spritzee/Snivy/Alolan Grimer, Vullaby/Onix/Snivy/Croagunk, Mienfoo/Vullaby/Foongus/Tirtouga, Mienfoo/Vullaby/Ferroseed/Snubbull, Mienfoo/Vullaby/Mareanie/Drilbur, Mienfoo/Vullaby/Onix/Staryu, Mienfoo/Wingull/Onix/Foongus, Croagunk/Vullaby/Spritzee/Ferroseed, Timburr/Vullaby/Staryu/Onix, Mienfoo/Vullaby/Foongus/Slowpoke... the possibilities are endless! If you can't decide what core to use, I recommend something that fits each of the following into four Pokemon:
    1. Fighting-type--usually this is Mienfoo, but if you're feeling wild, you can also use Timburr. Your Fighting-type is supposed to click Knock Off and sponge hits.
    2. Stealth Rock--this is typically Onix, but you can also use Tirtouga or Mudbray. For Onix, you usually want to use Sturdy, because it can live ANY attack, so it's pretty much invincible.
    3. Hazard removal--most often this is Berry Juice Defog Vullaby, but you can also use a spinner like Staryu or a different Defog user like Snivy.
    4. Poison-type--this should be Foongus or Mareanie, but occasionally you can get away with Croagunk. This is your check to Fighting-types and usually to Snivy. Sometimes you can get away without a Poison-type.
    5. Flying-type--usually Vullaby, but you can also use Wingull for more offensive teams. This is to scare off Fighting- and Grass-types.
    6. Grass-type--this is usually your Foongus, but it can also be a Snivy or a Ferroseed.
    7. Flying-type check--most often this is your Stealth Rock setter, but if you are using a bad Stealth Rock setter like Mudbray or Drilbur, you want another Flying-type check like Spritzee.
    8. Dark-type--this is optional, and is almost always Pawniard, Vullaby, or Alolan Grimer, but Dark-types give you a switch-in to Abra, because Abra doesn't have anything to hit Dark-types. You can also check Gastly with this Pokemon.
    9. One or more Regenerator Pokemon--Regenerator is the single most broken ability in the history of Pokemon. You can just keep switching and get more and more health. Your options for this slot are Mienfoo, Foongus, Mareanie, Slowpoke, and Solosis. Notice how four of those five are top 10 Little Cup Pokemon? That's not a coincidence. As a general rule, the more Regenerator Pokemon you have, the better.
    10. Water-type resist--Foongus, Mareanie, Snivy, Ferroseed, and Croagunk all fit here, but mostly the first two. This is another optional slot.
  2. So you've got four Pokemon. Great. But while I'm sure you can win with four Pokemon, you can win even more with six Pokemon, so you'll want to pick two more. These last two slots are used to fix holes in the four-Pokemon skeleton you just made. If you're particularly weak to Torchic, well, don't worry too much because it's probably getting banned soon, but for the time being, you can put a Torchic check here.
  3. Make sure you have speed control. This can be Thunder Wave, Tailwind, Sticky Web, Torchic, a Choice Scarf user, or just not having all your Pokemon be sub-18 Speed. Speed is very important in Little Cup, and if you don't have Speed control, you're probably going to lose.
  4. Make sure you didn't use any Pokemon below A- Rank. The only exceptions to this are Tirtouga, Slowpoke, Mareanie, and Meowth, because the first three really shouldn't be B+, and because Meowth is the ladder hero's best friend. Going to lose to Shellder? Not if you have a Meowth, just sack something, Fake Out, sack something else, Fake Out again, and Feint. You can also customize your Meowth to fit your team. Don't like Onix? No one does, but you can use Water Pulse Meowth to beat that. Hate Fighting-types? Meowth gets Aerial Ace. Scared of water? Make sure you haven't been bitten by any wild animals recently, and use Seed Bomb Meowth. Don't like Ferroseed? Meowth can use Hidden Power Fire. Any problem your team has, Meowth can fix it.
  5. Alternatively, if you don't want to build a team, or you like teams of a more aleatory sort, you can use this nifty tool, which my dear compatriot Corporal Levi developed.
  6. Once you've got all six Pokemon, run through a quick checklist:
    1. Do I have hazards, especially Stealth Rock?
    2. Do I have hazard removal?
    3. Do I have a Fighting-type check (preferably multiple)?
    4. Do I have a Flying-type check (preferably multiple)?
    5. Do I have a Torchic/Baton Pass check?
    6. Do I have a Water-type check?
    7. Do I have a Snivy check? (If this is Foongus, do not let it get Knocked Off, because +2 HP Ice will guaranteed KO you after 7 HP chip.)
    8. Do I have an Abra and Gastly check?
    9. Do I have speed control?
    10. Does my Flying-type check lose to mixed Vullaby or to Wingull? (If so, get another.)
    11. Do I have at least one Regenerator Pokemon (preferably multiple)?
    12. Does my check to Fighting-types/Flying-types/Snivy/Torchic/Abra get trapped by Diglett? (If so, get another.)
  7. Test your team. Play a few games, note what you're weak to, and try and fix these problems. No team is ever perfect, and sometimes you can't fix a problem with your team without making it weaker other things. But you want to make sure you at least have a way to play around everything.
You've built your team, tested it, perfected it, topped the ladder, you've done everything. You are now the perfect ladder hero. Congratulations.

FIN.
 
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Corporal Levi

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The other day, someone was asking for advice in metagame_and_qc on how to build for enzolapras's ban that mon tour, and it ended up sparking a discussion between rssp and I on what might be the most influential Pokemon in LC. While it didn't end up going very far, I found it an interesting topic to consider, so I ended up putting some more thought into it afterwards. Keep in mind that this is not a viability ranking, but rather a ranking of how much the metagame has changed because of a given Pokemon, and how much the metagame would change without it. Here is what I've come up with - do you guys agree or disagree?

Top 10 most influential Pokemon in LC

A
This tier consists of notable metagame threats that should be considered during teambuilding. The metagame would remain relatively unchanged if they left.



Honourable mentions: Onix, Magnemite, Timburr, Croagunk, Slowpoke, Scraggy

This is where I would put the most notable Pokemon after the top ten. While they're certainly important to consider during teambuilding, their influence doesn't really extend past being strong threats; for example, Onix and Timburr ranking near the top in terms of viability is almost purely because they happen to be in a good place in terms of role compression, or because they do well against other big threats. The metagame wouldn't really change if they left, and their niches would quickly be filled by something else.



A+
This tier consists of especially notable metagame threats that must be heavily considered during teambuilding. The metagame would see fairly noticeable changes if they left.

Banned Pokemon in this tier: Aipom*, Meditite, Porygon, Torchic, Vulpix
*I wasn't active during the Aipom metagame, so this is based on Quote's opinion


10. Mareanie
This is not something that I would be considering a few months ago, but I have really taken a liking to Mareanie recently. Its degree of influence stems almost completely from Regenerator, allowing it to completely shut down the threats that it checks in a non-interactive way if the opponent doesn't have Diglett; as a result, Diglett becomes even more necessary to support a variety of Pokemon who would otherwise be rendered a dead weight by Mareanie. Its defensive influence is also somewhat larger than most other defensive Pokemon, with coverage moves like Thunder Punch on Timburr and Thunderbolt on Staryu owing a fair amount of their existence to Mareanie.


9. Shellder
Shellder is by far the most threatening dedicated sweeper in LC. While the manner in which Shellder affects the metagame is similar to many of the threats I listed in mid A, it's the sheer importance of preparing for Shellder that puts it on a different level. Being able to bypass common safety nets, combined with a large amount of base damage and naturally good coverage, grants Shellder a great deal of consistency compared to other setup sweepers, keeping Shellder teams relevant where most other sweeper-centric archetypes have fallen to the wayside. While building a team, preparing for Shellder specifically is mandatory; a bunch of Water checks won't cut it for Shellder the way having Fighting checks will usually be enough for Timburr or Scraggy. As a result, Pokemon that deal with Shellder are in much higher demand than they would be without its presence; sets like SturdyJuice Magnemite and Fake Out Mienfoo come to mind.


8. Vullaby
Vullaby can certainly compete with its fellow S ranks in terms of sheer viability, but when it comes to influencing the metagame, it's not quite up there yet. This is in part because Vullaby is a relatively new addition to the metagame, and the preferred Vullaby set is constantly shifting in comparison to, say, Mienfoo, which pretty much just alternates between fast and slow Eviolite for the most dominant variant. Nevertheless, Vullaby is highly influential on the grounds of its viability alone, with trends coming and going on the basis of how well they deal with the current flavour of the month Vullaby set. For example, while Nasty Plot/Dark Pulse/Air Slash/Heat Wave was all the rage early in SM, Onix and Kabuto shot up in viability; when Vullaby was running mixed sets with Hidden Power Grass, Berry Juice, and low Attack investment, Mienfoo ran Fake Out and High Jump Kick to beat it 1v1; and now that the Defog + U-turn pivot is its most popular set, Scarf Pawniard usage is on the upswing.


7. Ferroseed
Once again, I would like to emphasize that this list ranks based on influence, not viability - I don't actually think Ferroseed is fantastic right now in a metagame that heavily favours Defog and Regenerator Pokemon. However, its influence is undeniable simply due to the fact that it single-handedly makes Hidden Power Fire one of the more common coverage moves. Ferroseed isn't very threatening as a standalone Pokemon, but letting it get off hazards, Knock Off, or Thunder Wave for free is super annoying; on top of that, its good bulk allows it to act as a one time stop to a variety of sweepers if it's healthy. Because of this, weakening Ferroseed early on is essential for a huge number of offensive Pokemon, and you'll frequently find Hidden Power Fire on the likes of Foongus, Wingull, Staryu, Abra, and more in an attempt to lure Ferroseed. It has some degree of defensive influence as well, notably aiding in keeping Foongus and Snivy under control while being a nuisance for Water spam, though it is rarely the biggest reason for any of those trends due to how easy it is to wear down.


6. Abra
Abra was a bigger deal in the past - it was especially potent when LO Abra webs was among the strongest team archetypes in the metagame, being the primary reason why Alolan Grimer was considered a top choice - but the USM shifts have been quite unfavourable to LO Abra. On the other hand, Sash Abra is just as good as it used to be, and, being the consistent and ubiquitous safety net that it is, forces as many teambuilding quirks as ever. The most obvious one is Beat Up Diglett, which exists entirely because of Sash Abra; even non-Beat Up Diglett is often included to break Abra's Focus Sash, as are other trappers. Certain Pursuit trappers can be attributed to Gastly and Wingull just as much as Abra, but on the whole, most Pursuit trappers are for Abra first and foremost. Sucker Punch on Gastly and Fake Out on Mienfoo have other uses, but being able to break Abra's sash are definitely among their most important. If Abra was to be banned, all of these little techs would become much less worth including.



S-
This tier consists of top metagame threats that single-handedly dictate numerous significant metagame trends. The LC metagame would shift dramatically if they left.

Banned Pokemon in this tier: Drifloon, Misdreavus, Murkrow, Swirlix, Yanma

In my opinion, the gap between S- and A+ is much larger than the gap between A+ and mid A. The Pokemon in this tier and above extend their influence to far beyond simply being prepared for while teambuilding.



5. Pawniard

It may seem odd to rank Pawniard so high at first, but rssp convinced me of its worth during our brief discussion. Like Mienfoo, many metagame trends stemming from Pawniard have been around for so long that we don't even notice them anymore; they have been completely ingrained into the metagame. Arguably the most important one of these is speed tiers; Pawniard is largely responsible for the importance of the 17 and 25 speed tiers. It really sucks to be a Choice Scarf user that's outsped by Choice Scarf Pawniard, allowing it to fire off a powerful Iron Head or Knock Off with impunity; as a result, it's essential for Scarf Chinchou to run Timid and, despite missing out on the better rolls that Adamant offers, Scarf Mienfoo to run Jolly. (The only notable Scarfer that lies below this Speed tier is Magnemite, who makes up for such a large disadvantage with incredibly potent Analytic Volt Switches.) Meanwhile, 17 Speed is the most common speed tier in the metagame, and the one where you'll most frequently find speed ties. Much of this stems from Onix and Mienfoo and their 17 Speed sets, which was partially to Taunt hazard lead Dwebble back in early/mid 2014, but continued to be their main sets all the way to the present day, long after Dwebble had died down in viability and then some, due to Pawniard being such a large threat.

Pawniard's plentiful resistances and (of course) its crippling double weakness to Fighting cause it to influence the metagame in other ways. While Fighting-types are naturally very good, Pawniard undoubtedly plays a role in how they're basically mandatory. It's also the reason Hidden Power Fighting is used as a coverage move at all. Diglett is slightly better for its ability to trap Pawniard, but the main trapper that benefits from Pawniard's existence is Trapinch; being able to trap Pawniard far more reliably, as well as trap Scarf Pawniard, is one of Trapinch's largest advantages over Diglett. And then there's Pawniard's access to one of the strongest priority moves in the game; Pawniard's Sucker Punch is the main reason why so many fast and frail Pokemon like Diglett, Abra, and Gastly like to run Substitute, as well as a key player in keeping Shell Smashers under control. In any metagame that closely resembles the current one, Pawniard will almost assuredly remain a titan of LC.



4. Snivy

Snivy would be a relatively recent addition to rankings of this sort, but the degree to which Snivy has shaped our current metagame is undeniable. Starting with the Gale Wings nerf at the start of gen 7, Snivy has become a whole new Pokemon compared to its already strong state in ORAS. The USM changes gave Defog to Snivy and Stealth Rock to a Snivy victim in Mudbray, both of which allow it to take part in the hazards game as one of its most prominent players. The hazards games has shifted enormously as a result of this; having such a splashable Defogger means that Spike stacking isn't as strong anymore, with Pokemon like Ferroseed and Dwebble seeing a decrease in viability as a result. Even more drastic is the degree to which it has shut down the entire Webs archetype. What was prior to USM one of the best offensive archetypes in the metagame, bordering on being outright broken, has been reduced to a near gimmick post-USM, and Snivy is without a doubt the largest perpetrator of this; there's a touch of pivot Defog Vullaby and Defog Wingull to help it out as well, but Snivy takes a substantial majority here.

Being the sole viable offensive Grass-type already grants Snivy an indispensable niche, but Snivy's strength causes its influence to bleed into other roles as well, even outside of how it affects hazards in LC. Letting Snivy get a Leaf Storm off is huge, and it generally takes momentum-draining defensive Pokemon to be able to absorb the move safely. As a result, offensive Water-types that don't pair well with these defensive Pokemon can become a liability, making Snivy one of the big reasons as to why Water spam isn't a very popular strategy. Mudbray and especially Drilbur aren't nearly as good as they could be due to Snivy checking them so well and using them as Leaf Storm bait. On the other hand, Gastly, birds, Ponyta, and above all, Foongus are all much stronger for their ability to check Snivy.



3. Foongus

Oh man, where do I even begin with this? Think of the last four coverage moves you used, and chances are that at least three of them were because of Foongus. Ice Punch on Timburr, Ice Beam and Psychic on Staryu, Hidden Power Ice on Snivy, Psychic Fangs on Carvanha, Fire Punch on Snubbull, Ice Beam on Chinchou - I could keep on going here, but I think you get the point. If the Pokemon in question doesn't naturally beat Foongus, it's probably running a coverage move that is at least partially for Foongus. It's not hard to see why; if a Pokemon is hard walled by Foongus, then it's basically done - it won't outlast Foongus's Regenerator, and it won't outpressure Foongus's Spore. Even some Pokemon that do beat Foongus run moves for Foongus; think Sleep Talk on things like Scarf Pawniard and Magnemite as their filler move, or Synthesis on your Foongus for opposing Foongus. There isn't a single metagame shift that would change as many fourth moves as Foongus being heavily nerfed or banned.

Foongus does a lot more than dictate coverage moves when it comes to influencing the metagame, of course. If Snivy makes Water spam more difficult to use, Foongus pounds it into the dirt, as it is extremely difficult to OHKO with common Water spam sets, allowing it to put something to sleep with Spore and then take advantage of Regenerator, Synthesis, and Giga Drain to remain healthy and check multiple threats. It's also the single biggest hindrance for Fairy-types in the tier; it contributes heavily to Cottonee being almost completely unviable in the current metagame, and forces a lot of teams to give up Spritzee despite Spritzee being such a fantastic hard check to Fighting-types and Vullaby. Most importantly, Foongus is the key Pokemon that prevents Snivy and Fighting spam from becoming utterly and irrevocably overbearing.



S
This Pokemon single-handedly warps the entire metagame in its general direction. The LC metagame would be in for a major upheaval if it left.

Banned Pokemon in this tier: Cutiefly, Gothita
ORAS Fletchling would place here as well.



2. Diglett

Most high tier Pokemon help to enforce a minor metagame trend here or there, and the extremely influential Pokemon of S- can claim to cause several major metagame trends. Diglett is on a different level. Diglett influences everything.

Diglett's combination of speed and Arena Trap lends its supportive capabilities a class of their own. There isn't a single Pokemon that doesn't become at least slightly better or worse because of Diglett, and there are plenty of Pokemon that are as much as a full subtier apart from where they would be without Diglett. If a Pokemon would have appreciated Earthquake or Earth Power as a coverage move, then it gets better because Diglett supports it; they will surely appreciate Diglett removing what would have been the target of ground coverage. If the Pokemon has VoltTurn, then it gets better because it supports Diglett; in fact, VoltTurn into Diglett is arguably the single most prevalent archetype right now. And if the Pokemon happens to be both of these on top of being otherwise decent to begin with, then it'll almost certainly find itself in the upper tiers of viability.

And if the Pokemon is weak to ground... well, you know how that goes. In fact, even if it's not weak to ground, if it doesn't doesn't carry Aqua Jet or a scarf and isn't resistant to ground, then it fears the Tectonic Rage set at least somewhat. If it does resist ground, its niche is increased significantly - the likes of Snivy and Vullaby love having Diglett in the metagame to be able to pressure it on the revenge-kill. For frailer Pokemon, being able to switch out of Diglett is an enormous boon; it's a big part of why Wingull can compete with offensive Staryu, or why Gastly even outshines Abra at times. If a viable Pokemon somehow remains directly unaffected by all of these trends, then it'll probably be affected by its checks being made better or worse by Diglett, but I don't think such a Pokemon exists.

You'll notice that many of the trends Diglett causes tend to hurt slower builds drastically more than they hurt fast paced, momentum based teams, and a quick glance at any Eviolite LC metagame where Diglett isn't common, including BW, early XY, and LC UU, will help to confirm this. Diglett single-handedly shifts the metagame towards offense.



S+
This Pokemon defines the LC metagame. LC would become unrecognizable if it left.

Banned Pokemon in this tier: Gligar, Scyther, Sneasel, Tangela



1. Mienfoo

Diglett may be on a different level from everything below it, but even Diglett's influence can't hold a candle to Mienfoo's. There really isn't any way for me to summarize Mienfoo's effect on the LC metagame succinctly. Fighting-types are undoubtedly the single most dominant group of Pokemon in LC, but when we say Fighting-types make something better or worse, we're not talking about Timburr or Croagunk or Scraggy. Timburr can be worn down, Croagunk is easily lured, and Scraggy has an unfortunate weakness to other Fighting-types - most notably Mienfoo. Instead, we're talking about Mienfoo's U-turn, Mienfoo's Regenerator, and Mienfoo as a whole.

I think the easiest way to understand just how far Mienfoo's influence reaches is to look at how we treat discussions on viability. Trubbish could be so much better, if only Diglett wasn't in the tier. Morellul has some cool traits, but Foongus both shuts down and outclasses it. And the facts of life include the following: water is wet, love is fleeting, Munchlax is bad. We wake up in the morning, spend our day on pokemon showdown, and go to bed at night, all the while acknowledging that Lickitung leaving C was never meant to be. Abra, Gastly, and Diglett may have trouble finding switchin opportunities, but get them in on a slow, reliable U-turn and voila, a near guaranteed KO. Although Slowpoke has great stats and a great movepool, and a weakness to Knock Off alone isn't overbearing, pairing that with a weakness to U-turn is a little too much. Now, who was that top tier threat who has been spamming U-turn since 2012?

When someone claims that U-turn is the third best move in LC, it's not because of Vullaby or Wingull or Larvesta. On top of being vulnerable to rocks, they lack Regenerator, which makes using U-turn that much more costly. Mienfoo's Regenerator U-turn is without question the single lowest risk, highest reward move in the game, and the entire LC metagame has gradually come to revolve around it; we see this in all facets of the tier, from numerous fast and frail Pokemon ranking near the top in viability, to the importance of bulky Regenerator Pokemon that can negate chip from U-turn.

Herein lies the difference between Mienfoo and every other Pokemon in LC. Most Pokemon influence the metagame so that they are accommodated. Mienfoo defines the metagame to begin with.
 
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Merritt

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The other day, someone was asking for advice in metagame_and_qc on how to build for enzolapras's ban that mon tour, and it ended up sparking a discussion between rssp and I on what might be the most influential Pokemon in LC. While it didn't end up going very far, I found it an interesting topic to consider, so I ended up putting some more thought into it afterwards. Keep in mind that this is not a viability ranking, but rather a ranking of how much the metagame has changed because of a given Pokemon, and how much the metagame would change without it. Here is what I've come up with - do you guys agree or disagree?

Top 10 most influential Pokemon in LC

A
This tier consists of notable metagame threats that should be considered during teambuilding. The metagame would remain relatively unchanged if they left.



Honourable mentions: Onix, Magnemite, Timburr, Croagunk, Slowpoke, Scraggy

This is where I would put the most notable Pokemon after the top ten. While they're certainly important to consider during teambuilding, their influence doesn't really extend past being strong threats; for example, Onix and Timburr ranking near the top in terms of viability is almost purely because they happen to be in a good place in terms of role compression, or because they do well against other big threats. The metagame wouldn't really change if they left, and their niches would quickly be filled by something else.



A+
This tier consists of especially notable metagame threats that must be heavily considered during teambuilding. The metagame would see fairly noticeable changes if they left.

Banned Pokemon in this tier: Aipom*, Meditite, Porygon, Torchic, Vulpix
*I wasn't active during the Aipom metagame, so this is based on Quote's opinion


10. Mareanie
This is not something that I would be considering a few months ago, but I have really taken a liking to Mareanie recently. Its degree of influence stems almost completely from Regenerator, allowing it to completely shut down the threats that it checks in a non-interactive way if the opponent doesn't have Diglett; as a result, Diglett becomes even more necessary to support a variety of Pokemon who would otherwise be rendered a dead weight by Mareanie. Its defensive influence is also somewhat larger than most other defensive Pokemon, with coverage moves like Thunder Punch on Timburr and Thunderbolt on Staryu owing a fair amount of their existence to Mareanie.


9. Shellder
Shellder is by far the most threatening dedicated sweeper in LC. While the manner in which Shellder affects the metagame is similar to many of the threats I listed in mid A, it's the sheer importance of preparing for Shellder that puts it on a different level. Being able to bypass common safety nets, combined with a large amount of base damage and naturally good coverage, grants Shellder a great deal of consistency compared to other setup sweepers, keeping Shellder teams relevant where most other sweeper-centric archetypes have fallen to the wayside. While building a team, preparing for Shellder specifically is mandatory; a bunch of Water checks won't cut it for Shellder the way having Fighting checks will usually be enough for Timburr or Scraggy. As a result, Pokemon that deal with Shellder are in much higher demand than they would be without its presence; sets like SturdyJuice Magnemite and Fake Out Mienfoo come to mind.


8. Vullaby
Vullaby can certainly compete with its fellow S ranks in terms of sheer viability, but when it comes to influencing the metagame, it's not quite up there yet. This is in part because Vullaby is a relatively new addition to the metagame, and the preferred Vullaby set is constantly shifting in comparison to, say, Mienfoo, which pretty much just alternates between fast and slow Eviolite for the most dominant variant. Nevertheless, Vullaby is highly influential on the grounds of its viability alone, with trends coming and going on the basis of how well they deal with the current flavour of the month Vullaby set. For example, while Nasty Plot/Dark Pulse/Air Slash/Heat Wave was all the rage early in SM, Onix and Kabuto shot up in viability; when Vullaby was running mixed sets with Hidden Power Grass, Berry Juice, and low Attack investment, Mienfoo ran Fake Out and High Jump Kick to beat it 1v1; and now that the Defog + U-turn pivot is its most popular set, Scarf Pawniard usage is on the upswing.


7. Ferroseed
Once again, I would like to emphasize that this list ranks based on influence, not viability - I don't actually think Ferroseed is fantastic right now in a metagame that heavily favours Defog and Regenerator Pokemon. However, its influence is undeniable simply due to the fact that it single-handedly makes Hidden Power Fire one of the more common coverage moves. Ferroseed isn't very threatening as a standalone Pokemon, but letting it get off hazards, Knock Off, or Thunder Wave for free is super annoying; on top of that, its good bulk allows it to act as a one time stop to a variety of sweepers if it's healthy. Because of this, weakening Ferroseed early on is essential for a huge number of offensive Pokemon, and you'll frequently find Hidden Power Fire on the likes of Foongus, Wingull, Staryu, Abra, and more in an attempt to lure Ferroseed. It has some degree of defensive influence as well, notably aiding in keeping Foongus and Snivy under control while being a nuisance for Water spam, though it is rarely the biggest reason for any of those trends due to how easy it is to wear down.


6. Abra
Abra was a bigger deal in the past - it was especially potent when LO Abra webs was among the strongest team archetypes in the metagame, being the primary reason why Alolan Grimer was considered a top choice - but the USM shifts have been quite unfavourable to LO Abra. On the other hand, Sash Abra is just as good as it used to be, and, being the consistent and ubiquitous safety net that it is, forces as many teambuilding quirks as ever. The most obvious one is Beat Up Diglett, which exists entirely because of Sash Abra; even non-Beat Up Diglett is often included to break Abra's Focus Sash, as are other trappers. Certain Pursuit trappers can be attributed to Gastly and Wingull just as much as Abra, but on the whole, most Pursuit trappers are for Abra first and foremost. Sucker Punch on Gastly and Fake Out on Mienfoo have other uses, but being able to break Abra's sash are definitely among their most important. If Abra was to be banned, all of these little techs would become much less worth including.



S-
This tier consists of top metagame threats that single-handedly dictate numerous significant metagame trends. The LC metagame would shift dramatically if they left.

Banned Pokemon in this tier: Drifloon, Misdreavus, Murkrow, Swirlix, Yanma

In my opinion, the gap between S- and A+ is much larger than the gap between A+ and mid A. The Pokemon in this tier and above extend their influence to far beyond simply being prepared for while teambuilding.



5. Pawniard

It may seem odd to rank Pawniard so high at first, but rssp convinced me of its worth during our brief discussion. Like Mienfoo, many metagame trends stemming from Pawniard have been around for so long that we don't even notice them anymore; they have been completely ingrained into the metagame. Arguably the most important one of these is speed tiers; Pawniard is largely responsible for the importance of the 17 and 25 speed tiers. It really sucks to be a Choice Scarf user that's outsped by Choice Scarf Pawniard, allowing it to fire off a powerful Iron Head or Knock Off with impunity; as a result, it's essential for Scarf Chinchou to run Timid and, despite missing out on the better rolls that Adamant offers, Scarf Mienfoo to run Jolly. (The only notable Scarfer that lies below this Speed tier is Magnemite, who makes up for such a large disadvantage with incredibly potent Analytic Volt Switches.) Meanwhile, 17 Speed is the most common speed tier in the metagame, and the one where you'll most frequently find speed ties. Much of this stems from Onix and Mienfoo and their 17 Speed sets, which was partially to Taunt hazard lead Dwebble back in early/mid 2014, but continued to be their main sets all the way to the present day, long after Dwebble had died down in viability and then some, due to Pawniard being such a large threat.

Pawniard's plentiful resistances and (of course) its crippling double weakness to Fighting cause it to influence the metagame in other ways. While Fighting-types are naturally very good, Pawniard undoubtedly plays a role in how they're basically mandatory. It's also the reason Hidden Power Fighting is used as a coverage move at all. Diglett is slightly better for its ability to trap Pawniard, but the main trapper that benefits from Pawniard's existence is Trapinch; being able to trap Pawniard far more reliably, as well as trap Scarf Pawniard, is one of Trapinch's largest advantages over Diglett. And then there's Pawniard's access to one of the strongest priority moves in the game; Pawniard's Sucker Punch is the main reason why so many fast and frail Pokemon like Diglett, Abra, and Gastly like to run Substitute, as well as a key player in keeping Shell Smashers under control. In any metagame that closely resembles the current one, Pawniard will almost assuredly remain a titan of LC.



4. Snivy

Snivy would be a relatively recent addition to rankings of this sort, but the degree to which Snivy has shaped our current metagame is undeniable. Starting with the Gale Wings nerf at the start of gen 7, Snivy has become a whole new Pokemon compared to its already strong state in ORAS. The USM changes gave Defog to Snivy and Stealth Rock to a Snivy victim in Mudbray, both of which allow it to take part in the hazards game as one of its most prominent players. The hazards games has shifted enormously as a result of this; having such a splashable Defogger means that Spike stacking isn't as strong anymore, with Pokemon like Ferroseed and Dwebble seeing a decrease in viability as a result. Even more drastic is the degree to which it has shut down the entire Webs archetype. What was prior to USM one of the best offensive archetypes in the metagame, bordering on being outright broken, has been reduced to a near gimmick post-USM, and Snivy is without a doubt the largest perpetrator of this; there's a touch of pivot Defog Vullaby and Defog Wingull to help it out as well, but Snivy takes a substantial majority here.

Being the sole viable offensive Grass-type already grants Snivy an indispensable niche, but Snivy's strength causes its influence to bleed into other roles as well, even outside of how it affects hazards in LC. Letting Snivy get a Leaf Storm off is huge, and it generally takes momentum-draining defensive Pokemon to be able to absorb the move safely. As a result, offensive Water-types that don't pair well with these defensive Pokemon can become a liability, making Snivy one of the big reasons as to why Water spam isn't a very popular strategy. Mudbray and especially Drilbur aren't nearly as good as they could be due to Snivy checking them so well and using them as Leaf Storm bait. On the other hand, Gastly, birds, Ponyta, and above all, Foongus are all much stronger for their ability to check Snivy.



3. Foongus

Oh man, where do I even begin with this? Think of the last four coverage moves you used, and chances are that at least three of them were because of Foongus. Ice Punch on Timburr, Ice Beam and Psychic on Staryu, Hidden Power Ice on Snivy, Psychic Fangs on Carvanha, Fire Punch on Snubbull, Ice Beam on Chinchou - I could keep on going here, but I think you get the point. If the Pokemon in question doesn't naturally beat Foongus, it's probably running a coverage move that is at least partially for Foongus. It's not hard to see why; if a Pokemon is hard walled by Foongus, then it's basically done - it won't outlast Foongus's Regenerator, and it won't outpressure Foongus's Spore. Even some Pokemon that do beat Foongus run moves for Foongus; think Sleep Talk on things like Scarf Pawniard and Magnemite as their filler move, or Synthesis on your Foongus for opposing Foongus. There isn't a single metagame shift that would change as many fourth moves as Foongus being heavily nerfed or banned.

Foongus does a lot more than dictate coverage moves when it comes to influencing the metagame, of course. If Snivy makes Water spam more difficult to use, Foongus pounds it into the dirt, as it is extremely difficult to OHKO with common Water spam sets, allowing it to put something to sleep with Spore and then take advantage of Regenerator, Synthesis, and Giga Drain to remain healthy and check multiple threats. It's also the single biggest hindrance for Fairy-types in the tier; it contributes heavily to Cottonee being almost completely unviable in the current metagame, and forces a lot of teams to give up Spritzee despite Spritzee being such a fantastic hard check to Fighting-types and Vullaby. Most importantly, Foongus is the key Pokemon that prevents Snivy and Fighting spam from becoming utterly and irrevocably overbearing.



S
This Pokemon single-handedly warps the entire metagame in its general direction. The LC metagame would be in for a major upheaval if it left.

Banned Pokemon in this tier: Cutiefly, Gothita
ORAS Fletchling would place here as well.



2. Diglett

Most high tier Pokemon help to enforce a minor metagame trend here or there, and the extremely influential Pokemon of S- can claim to cause several major metagame trends. Diglett is on a different level. Diglett influences everything.

Diglett's combination of speed and Arena Trap lends its supportive capabilities a class of their own. There isn't a single Pokemon that doesn't become at least slightly better or worse because of Diglett, and there are plenty of Pokemon that are as much as a full subtier apart from where they would be without Diglett. If a Pokemon would have appreciated Earthquake or Earth Power as a coverage move, then it gets better because Diglett supports it; they will surely appreciate Diglett removing what would have been the target of ground coverage. If the Pokemon has VoltTurn, then it gets better because it supports Diglett; in fact, VoltTurn into Diglett is arguably the single most prevalent archetype right now. And if the Pokemon happens to be both of these on top of being otherwise decent to begin with, then it'll almost certainly find itself in the upper tiers of viability.

And if the Pokemon is weak to ground... well, you know how that goes. In fact, even if it's not weak to ground, if it doesn't doesn't carry Aqua Jet or a scarf and isn't resistant to ground, then it fears the Tectonic Rage set at least somewhat. If it does resist ground, its niche is increased significantly - the likes of Snivy and Vullaby love having Diglett in the metagame to be able to pressure it on the revenge-kill. For frailer Pokemon, being able to switch out of Diglett is an enormous boon; it's a big part of why Wingull can compete with offensive Staryu, or why Gastly even outshines Abra at times. If a viable Pokemon somehow remains directly unaffected by all of these trends, then it'll probably be affected by its checks being made better or worse by Diglett, but I don't think such a Pokemon exists.

You'll notice that many of the trends Diglett causes tend to hurt slower builds drastically more than they hurt fast paced, momentum based teams, and a quick glance at any Eviolite LC metagame where Diglett isn't common, including BW, early XY, and LC UU, will help to confirm this. Diglett single-handedly shifts the metagame towards offense.



S+
This Pokemon defines the LC metagame. LC would become unrecognizable if it left.

Banned Pokemon in this tier: Gligar, Scyther, Sneasel, Tangela



1. Mienfoo

Diglett may be on a different level from everything below it, but even Diglett's influence can't hold a candle to Mienfoo's. There really isn't any way for me to summarize Mienfoo's effect on the LC metagame succinctly. Fighting-types are undoubtedly the single most dominant group of Pokemon in LC, but when we say Fighting-types make something better or worse, we're not talking about Timburr or Croagunk or Scraggy. Timburr can be worn down, Croagunk is easily lured, and Scraggy has an unfortunate weakness to other Fighting-types - most notably Mienfoo. Instead, we're talking about Mienfoo's U-turn, Mienfoo's Regenerator, and Mienfoo as a whole.

I think the easiest way to understand just how far Mienfoo's influence reaches is to look at how we treat discussions on viability. Trubbish could be so much better, if only Diglett wasn't in the tier. Morellul has some cool traits, but Foongus both shuts down and outclasses it. And the facts of life include the following: water is wet, love is fleeting, Munchlax is bad. We wake up in the morning, spend our day on pokemon showdown, and go to bed at night, all the while acknowledging that Lickitung leaving C was never meant to be. Abra, Gastly, and Diglett may have trouble finding switchin opportunities, but get them in on a slow, reliable U-turn and voila, a near guaranteed KO. Although Slowpoke has great stats and a great movepool, and a weakness to Knock Off alone isn't overbearing, pairing that with a weakness to U-turn is a little too much. Now, who was that top tier threat who has been spamming U-turn since 2012?

When someone claims that U-turn is the third best move in LC, it's not because of Vullaby or Wingull or Larvesta. On top of being vulnerable to rocks, they lack Regenerator, which makes using U-turn that much more costly. Mienfoo's Regenerator U-turn is without question the single lowest risk, highest reward move in the game, and the entire LC metagame has gradually come to revolve around it; we see this in all facets of the tier, from numerous fast and frail Pokemon ranking near the top in viability, to the importance of bulky Regenerator Pokemon that can negate chip from U-turn.

Herein lies the difference between Mienfoo and every other Pokemon in LC. Most Pokemon influence the metagame so that they are accommodated. Mienfoo defines the metagame to begin with.
Remind me why you don’t write articles again?

I find myself agreeing with most of this, although I think you overstate Foongus a little bit (shock). Most of the coverage you mention isn’t purely for Foongus but rather enjoys the popularity it does due to Foongus’ role as an almost everything answer - Psychic coverage found itself introduced to deal with the dominance of Fighting types while hitting Foongus was simply a nice bonus, HP Ice Snivy was an option that didn’t wreck its speed and let it hit Flying types and Grass types in general, and Ice Beam Chinchou is important for Grass types in general rather than just Foongus.

Instead, and I’m surprised to not have seen this mentioned except in passing, I’d argue that Foongus finds itself in the position it does as a result of the influence of the metagame titans. Foongus soft checks and counters so many important threats which is what makes it so splashable in the first place. It’s not the best Fighting answer, even among Poison types, but it isn’t weak to ground unlike them meaning Diglett isn’t quite as dangerous. Mienfoo and friends grip on the tier, paired with Diglett’s omnipresent menace (don’t ban Diglett), led to the hard shift towards Fairy types, and Foongus provides a way to easily and more importantly consistently deal with them multiple times in a game, as they are difficult to actually chip down enough with Fighting types unless running specific coverage.

Even the influences ranked “below” Foongus serve to bolster its presence. Snivy’s increased threat lent itself to the need for answers, and Foongus fits the bill nearly perfectly. Magnemite and Chinchou, despite the abject hatred some people have for chou, require an answer who can come into Volt Switch and not get chipped down over time to prevent them from running a rampage over teams, and while the threat of Diglett and Onix certainly dissuade from using Volt Switch, something that doesn’t instantly die if you predict wrong is preferable. Mareanie too, although less ingrained in LC, calls for a Pokémon like Foongus to answer it.

Foongus certainly has its significant influence when building, but I’m not sure I’d personally put it at number 3 as its presence is less demanding on your team not losing to it and more demands attention to its existence as one of LCs most common Pokémon. Regardless, Foongus is definitely one of the most interesting Pokémon in LC, and definitely deserves it’s notable spot in the meta.
 
lighthearted jac own.png


cant believe quote wants to suspect Jac instead lol

But i figure i'd speculate here about a post-regen meta, because suspect threads should be for getting down to the brokeness of a thing rather than what the meta would look like in the wake of a ban. Regen is core to the lc meta though, so it would be irresponsible to do it not at all. So, here.

The main thing ive noticed with regen lc is it prioritizes damage in one swoop. Chipping foongus to kill doesnt really work because it gets that health back for almost free on the switchout, so you're always trying to put yourself in a spot where your doduo or whatever can slam it out with bb. This also explains diglett to a degree - it ensures accumulated damage sticks better than anything else. It creates a paradox of sorts, too. When lc regen has been used at its highest level - here im thinking of levi's lc open run a couple years ago - it's simultaneously offensive and defensive. Defensive pivots into mienfoo allow more turns to attack full-bore with HO mons. So sorting out what happens after regen is gone is less simple than "the meta will be more offensive". It will be, I think, offensive in a more direct and chippy way. Tagging things with damage will become more important obviously, and so will capitalizing on this damage done. Generalized Scarfers - Drill, foo, etc - will become more common to sweep up empty teams, as will Scraggy, whose existence is blighted by regen bullshit currently. but idk. sound off in the comments.
 
there has been much ado made about the state of the meta. The post above me sums it up: fuck foongus. players at the highest level have often made the determination that the optimal play is to trade sludge bombs and synthesis until they can sneak their foongus out, uturn, and then come back in again. This only ends when one player gets impatient or the foonguses run out of pp. Everyone agrees this is unpleasant. But what to do about it? I tried to start a dialogue in council chat



but was swiftly rejected. other users have proposed doing the regen suspect but not a as a prank this time, or suspecting foongus by itself. but if we suspected something for being annoying, merritt would probably put his fist through his monitor, and even I think it's not a good idea. There seems to be little we can do about foongus itself. So I, a savvy metagame analyst, decided to work backwards. Instead of asking "what can we do about foongus now that it's popular enough to be irritating", i asked "what conditions made foongus so ubiquitous as to make it annoying in the first place"? I came up with two competing theories, one old one new, that I hope we can talk about. starting with the old:

1. Diglett is too powerful. this one isn't too hard to grasp; the thinking has been around since prem's magnetic camera presence and animal charisma carried an early gen 6 lc smogcast. I wont go through the full argument here, just how it relates to the rise of foongus. all lc teams need a robust fighting-type check. even the most direct offensive teams usually carry something that can sponge fight attacks. the mons that are traditionally considered fighting checks good enough to use are: snubbull Spritzee foongus Mareiene and maybe trubbish. Three of those mons - Snubbull, Marenenene, Trubbish - are trapped easily by diglett, often off of u-turns they walk into when switching in. Only foongus and Spritzee arent easily trapped, and the latter has been the victim of the ubiquity of the former, which comes in for free and starts sludging, sporing, and so on. So only foongus is most viable in a Diglett-heavy metagame. While it is of course trappable, particularly after a knock, spore means it's much harder to both get that knock and to maneuver into Diglett than it is to trap other mons. if the opp needs to trap other mons with diglett and burns the z, foongus has very likely earned itself staying power for the rest of the game. of course the interplay of diglett and the rest of the meta is very complex - notably, it traps foongus answers like abra and ponyta, but also allows removes answers to birds which threaten the shroom - and I wont go into it here, but it should be clear that the diglett-foongus linkage is something to think about.

or

2. Scarf Snivy is too powerful. this is sort of a wacky one, but here me out. i was reflecting on my building process with a fellow lcer, and we noted that foongus is the only solid scarf snivy check in the meta rn. Ferroseed, the notable other double-resist, is trapped by mag, often dig, and cheeky alola-geodudes. Other steel types like pawn frequently meet the same fate, or are worn down by coming into leaf storms. Birds and other soft resists - gastly, gunk - dont like repeated hits either. fast scarf mons are pretty easy to wear down with rocks (doduo more than gastly) and their lack of power (gastly more than doduo) means theyre easy to trap. foongus is the only solid stop. there are of course ways around it- see the diglett trapping foongus part above - but it's indisputably the best check. A reduction in scarf snivy (in the form of a ban) might perhaps mean a reduction in the neccesity of foongus.

While these may seem a touch absurd, I think theyre worth considering. What if foongus is not the cause of the metagame's malaise, but a symptom of it?
 

Gummy

...three, smiles go for miles!
im quitting mons here are my teams
:weary: (Slowpoke) @ Electrium Z
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 5
EVs: 196 HP / 116 Def / 196 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Flamethrower
- Psychic
- Zap Cannon

:pensive: (Onix) @ Eviolite
Ability: Weak Armor
Level: 5
EVs: 76 HP / 236 Atk / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Rock Blast
- Earthquake
- Explosion

:tired_face: (Snivy) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Contrary
Level: 5
EVs: 240 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Giga Drain
- Knock Off
- Hidden Power [Ground]

:smirk: (Mienfoo) @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 5
EVs: 196 Def / 36 SpD / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- High Jump Kick
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Fake Out

:smile: (Vullaby) @ Eviolite
Ability: Overcoat
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 76 Atk / 236 Def / 76 SpD
Impish Nature
- Roost
- Knock Off
- Brave Bird
- Defog

:thinking: (Abra) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Guard
Level: 5
EVs: 240 SpA / 200 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 30 HP / 0 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 SpD / 30 Spe
- Psychic
- Dazzling Gleam
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Energy Ball

i used this in my match vs zoro (dont worry i remembered to change abra to the good ability this time) and its a really fun team. z-thunder slowpoke is NUTS and thanks fitzy for posting it in some ancient thread for me to steal

Doduo @ Berry Juice
Ability: Early Bird
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Jump Kick
- Quick Attack
- Swords Dance

Foongus @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 5
EVs: 124 HP / 160 Def / 160 SpD
Bold Nature
- Spore
- Sludge Bomb
- Giga Drain
- Synthesis

Mienfoo @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 5
EVs: 196 Def / 36 SpD / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- High Jump Kick
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Fake Out

Onix @ Berry Juice
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 5
EVs: 76 HP / 236 Atk / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Rock Blast
- Earthquake
- Endure

Grimer-Alola @ Eviolite
Ability: Poison Touch
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 196 Atk / 196 Def / 36 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Fire Punch
- Knock Off
- Gunk Shot
- Shadow Sneak

Ponyta @ Grassium Z
Ability: Flash Fire
Level: 5
EVs: 76 Def / 236 SpA / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
- Solar Beam
- Flamethrower
- Flame Charge
- Overheat

disclaimer: all of my teams are one gimmick mon + 5 glue mons. anyway, sd doduo is a fun wincon, and grassium pony is still as wild as ever just less common so i threw that on there too. pursuit grimer-a SUCKS.

:weary: (Abra) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Guard
Level: 5
EVs: 240 SpA / 200 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Dazzling Gleam
- Counter
- Protect

rs pee pee (Vullaby) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Overcoat
Level: 5
EVs: 156 Atk / 76 Def / 76 SpA / 76 SpD / 116 Spe
Hardy Nature
- Knock Off
- Brave Bird
- Heat Wave
- Hidden Power [Grass]

viper-chama.. (Gastly) @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
Level: 5
EVs: 200 SpA / 80 SpD / 200 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 30 HP / 0 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 SpD / 30 Spe
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Substitute

mert (Snubbull) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 116 Atk / 116 Def / 196 SpD / 36 Spe
Impish Nature
- Play Rough
- Fire Punch
- Thief
- Substitute

kazuGOATmi (Snivy) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Contrary
Level: 5
EVs: 240 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Giga Drain
- Knock Off
- Hidden Power [Ground]

razzleri (Pawniard) @ Eviolite
Ability: Defiant
Level: 5
EVs: 156 Atk / 36 Def / 116 SpD / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- Iron Head
- Stealth Rock

i used this in my match vs taranteeeeeeeno. rlly solid team overall imo except for the fact that it fucking dies to ponyta as seen in the replay

Timburr @ Eviolite
Ability: Iron Fist
Level: 5
EVs: 196 Atk / 156 Def / 156 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Mach Punch
- Knock Off
- Ice Punch

Spritzee @ Eviolite
Ability: Aroma Veil
Level: 5
EVs: 52 HP / 116 Def / 252 SpA / 76 SpD / 12 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Moonblast
- Nasty Plot

Ponyta @ Eviolite
Ability: Flame Body
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 76 Def / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flame Charge
- Flare Blitz
- High Horsepower
- Morning Sun

Vullaby @ Eviolite
Ability: Overcoat
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 156 Atk / 76 SpD / 116 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Knock Off
- Roost
- U-turn

Snivy @ Normalium Z
Ability: Contrary
Level: 5
EVs: 240 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leaf Storm
- Wring Out
- Defog
- Glare

Ferroseed @ Eviolite
Ability: Iron Barbs
Level: 5
EVs: 84 HP / 36 Atk / 108 Def / 228 SpD / 36 Spe
Impish Nature
- Bullet Seed
- Knock Off
- Thunder Wave
- Stealth Rock

i built this bc i was fucking sick of losing to foongus all the time. ferro + pony + vulla and zwro snivy too bc fuck that mon, seriously.

weak and strong (Amaura) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Snow Warning
Level: 5
EVs: 60 HP / 220 SpA / 228 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blizzard
- Earth Power
- Thunderbolt
- Ancient Power

wet and dry (Doduo) @ Life Orb
Ability: Early Bird
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Knock Off
- Jump Kick
- Quick Attack

right and wrong (Foongus) @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 5
EVs: 124 HP / 156 Def / 160 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 30 HP / 0 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 SpD / 30 Spe
- Spore
- Sludge Bomb
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Fighting]

live and die (Onix) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 5
EVs: 76 HP / 236 Atk / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Rock Blast
- Earthquake
- Endure

sane and gone (Snivy) @ Normalium Z
Ability: Contrary
Level: 5
EVs: 240 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 SpD
- Leaf Storm
- Wring Out
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Defog

love and not (Slowpoke) @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 156 Def / 116 SpA / 116 SpD / 76 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Psychic
- Fire Blast
- Slack Off

i was originally planning on making my quitting post an RMT using this team bc i like it that much but it'd be really embarrassing if i left smogon with SIX rmts that never made it into team showcase so im leaving it at 5. this team is in like 80% of my replays. basically just put on a shitload of pressure with doduo and amaura. i also use a version of the team with snatch pawniard to fuck dig up but with that u just die to scarf foo

Venonat @ Normalium Z
Ability: Compound Eyes
Level: 5
EVs: 196 HP / 116 Def / 156 SpD
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sleep Powder
- Flash
- Baton Pass
- Agility

Vullaby @ Eviolite
Ability: Overcoat
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 156 Atk / 76 SpD / 116 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Knock Off
- Roost
- U-turn

Cacnea @ BrightPowder
Ability: Sand Veil
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 116 Def / 116 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Sandstorm
- Seed Bomb
- Focus Punch
- Sucker Punch

Diglett @ Groundium Z
Ability: Sand Force
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Sucker Punch
- Substitute

Spritzee @ Eviolite
Ability: Aroma Veil
Level: 5
EVs: 212 HP / 196 Def / 12 SpA / 76 SpD / 12 Spe
Bold Nature
- Wish
- Protect
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast

Mienfoo @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 5
EVs: 76 HP / 76 Atk / 116 Def / 196 SpD
Impish Nature
- Baton Pass
- Swords Dance
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off

this is the single greatest team i've ever crafted. lead with venonat. step one: sleep powder. step two: zflash. step three: agility. step four: pass to foo. step five: swords dance. step six: pass to cacnea. step seven: set up sandstorm. step eight: you fucking win. yes i know cacnea gets swords dance but waste of a moveslot.

nozomi (Abra) (F) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Guard
Level: 5
EVs: 36 Atk / 240 SpA / 200 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Dazzling Gleam
- Counter
- Energy Ball

yohane (Gastly) (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
Level: 5
EVs: 200 SpA / 80 SpD / 200 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Substitute

ch-ch-ch-CHIA (Turtwig) (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Overgrow
Level: 5
EVs: 244 Def / 236 SpD / 28 Spe
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Superpower

nico (Spritzee) (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Aroma Veil
Level: 5
EVs: 212 HP / 196 Def / 12 SpA / 76 SpD / 12 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Protect
- Moonblast
- Nasty Plot

umi (Staryu) @ Life Orb
Ability: Analytic
Level: 5
EVs: 76 Def / 196 SpA / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Rapid Spin

riko (Mienfoo) (F) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 36 Def / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- High Jump Kick
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Acrobatics

this is the turtwig set people SHOULD use. dual screens rocks baby. add glue mons and u have a fun team thats basically standard as shit but it has a turtwig so you can still call it wild

bluebell (Gastly) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
Level: 5
EVs: 36 Def / 196 SpA / 76 SpD / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Bomb
- Thunderbolt
- Dazzling Gleam

cornflower (Doduo) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Early Bird
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Knock Off
- Jump Kick
- Quick Attack

azure (Mudbray) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Stamina
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 196 Atk / 36 Def / 156 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Heavy Slam
- Rock Slide
- Stealth Rock

cerulean (Snubbull) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 36 Atk / 196 Def / 116 SpD / 116 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Thief
- Play Rough
- Fire Punch
- Thunder Wave

ultramarine (Grimer-Alola) @ Eviolite
Ability: Poison Touch
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 116 Atk / 196 Def / 116 SpA / 36 SpD
Brave Nature
- Knock Off
- Giga Drain
- Shadow Sneak
- Fire Blast

blue (Mienfoo) @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 5
EVs: 200 Atk / 36 Def / 36 SpD / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- High Jump Kick
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Taunt

i LOVE scarf doduo/scarf gastly on the same team. afraid of onix????? ok that's fair, mon's broke, but giga drain grimer's there at least. again pursuit grimer SUCKS

sprite (Croagunk) @ Eviolite
Ability: Dry Skin
Level: 5
EVs: 52 HP / 116 Def / 188 SpA / 116 SpD / 36 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Sludge Bomb
- Shadow Ball
- Vacuum Wave

cola (Scraggy) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Moxie
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 156 Atk / 36 Def / 36 SpD / 212 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- High Jump Kick
- Knock Off
- Substitute

pepsi (Archen) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Defeatist
Level: 5
EVs: 184 Atk / 76 Def / 8 SpA / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Acrobatics
- Head Smash
- Stealth Rock
- Hidden Power [Grass]

ramune (Staryu) @ Eviolite
Ability: Analytic
Level: 5
EVs: 196 SpA / 76 SpD / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Rapid Spin
- Thunderbolt
- Psychic

pepper (Doduo) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Early Bird
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Jump Kick
- Knock Off
- Brave Bird

mountain dew (Diglett) @ Groundium Z
Ability: Arena Trap
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Substitute
- Rock Slide
- Sucker Punch

i built this with inf once upon a time. he has some really wack ideas for sets but its a fun one, if a bit outdated.

Doduo @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Early Bird
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Knock Off
- Jump Kick
- Quick Attack

Gastly @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
Level: 5
EVs: 200 SpA / 80 SpD / 200 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Substitute

Abra @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Guard
Level: 5
EVs: 76 HP / 236 SpA / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psychic
- Dazzling Gleam
- Counter
- Energy Ball

Bunnelby @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Huge Power
Level: 5
EVs: 228 Atk / 52 Def / 220 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Return
- U-turn
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

Elekid @ Life Orb
Ability: Vital Spirit
Level: 5
EVs: 240 SpA / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Grass]

Mienfoo @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Reckless
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 36 Def / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- High Jump Kick
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Drain Punch

defensive synergy? taking hits? switching in? FUCK all that, with this team you just press buttons until the game ends in 10 or less turns. hell yeah.


Diglett @ Life Orb
Ability: Arena Trap
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Sucker Punch
- Substitute

Fletchling
Ability: Gale Wings
Level: 5
EVs: 76 HP / 196 Atk / 92 Def / 100 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Acrobatics
- Swords Dance
- Roost
- U-turn

Cottonee @ Eviolite
Ability: Prankster
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 196 Def / 196 SpD
Bold Nature
- Dazzling Gleam
- Knock Off
- Giga Drain
- Encore

Staryu @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 156 Def / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Scald
- Psychic
- Recover

Pawniard @ Eviolite
Ability: Defiant
Level: 5
EVs: 156 Atk / 36 Def / 116 SpD / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Iron Head
- Sucker Punch
- Stealth Rock

Mienfoo @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 5
EVs: 190 HP / 116 Def / 196 SpD
Impish Nature
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Taunt

this is the only team i built with melon while he was tutoring me, but since melon's the greatest pokemon player ever put on earth im sure its good. we all remember how fletchdig works.

Vulpix @ Heat Rock
Ability: Drought
Level: 5
EVs: 196 SpA / 76 SpD / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Flamethrower
- Energy Ball
- Extrasensory

Bellsprout @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
Level: 5
EVs: 76 Def / 196 SpA / 36 SpD / 196 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Growth
- Weather Ball
- Solar Beam
- Sludge Bomb

Bulbasaur @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
Level: 5
EVs: 240 SpA / 240 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Sleep Powder
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Solar Beam

Diglett @ Life Orb
Ability: Arena Trap
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Substitute
- Rock Slide
- Sucker Punch

Magnemite @ Berry Juice
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 5
EVs: 36 Def / 236 SpA / 236 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flash Cannon
- Volt Switch
- Endure
- Recycle

Timburr @ Eviolite
Ability: Iron Fist
Level: 5
EVs: 76 HP / 196 Atk / 236 SpD
Careful Nature
- Drain Punch
- Mach Punch
- Fire Punch
- Thunder Punch

obligatory sun team. i had a better one in my teambuilder but i think it was the doka one that was going around back then, so take this slightly gimmicky-er sun team

Snivy @ Eviolite
Ability: Contrary
Level: 5
EVs: 240 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 1 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 SpD
- Leaf Storm
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Glare
- Synthesis

Spritzee @ Eviolite
Ability: Aroma Veil
Level: 5
EVs: 212 HP / 196 Def / 12 SpA / 76 SpD / 12 Spe
Bold Nature
- Moonblast
- Covet
- Wish
- Protect

Gothita @ Eviolite
Ability: Shadow Tag
Level: 5
EVs: 156 HP / 116 Def / 76 SpD / 156 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psyshock
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Thunderbolt

Onix @ Berry Juice
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 5
EVs: 76 HP / 236 Atk / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Blast
- Taunt
- Stealth Rock

Pawniard @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Defiant
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 236 Atk / 36 Def / 36 SpD / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Iron Head
- Pursuit
- Brick Break

Timburr @ Eviolite
Ability: Guts
Level: 5
EVs: 116 Atk / 156 Def / 236 SpD
Careful Nature
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- Mach Punch
- Bulk Up

this is labeled "i stole this from op" in my teambuilder, but i believe i just took the mons and not the sets? either way, this is probably an actually halfway decent oras team for ur viewing pleasure. my deepest apologies to mr. power if this is just straight up his team


Drifloon @ Focus Sash
Ability: Unburden
Level: 5
EVs: 116 Atk / 196 SpA / 196 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Explosion
- Shadow Ball
- Sucker Punch
- Thunderbolt

Gligar @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sand Veil
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Adamant Nature
- U-turn
- Earthquake
- Aqua Tail
- Aerial Ace

Ponyta @ Oran Berry
Ability: Flash Fire
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 240 Atk / 196 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Fire Blast
- Return
- Quick Attack
- Hidden Power [Grass]

Snover @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Snow Warning
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 184 SpA / 200 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Blizzard
- Energy Ball
- Water Pulse
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Diglett @ Focus Sash
Ability: Arena Trap
Level: 5
EVs: 240 Atk / 236 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Sucker Punch
- Substitute

Machop @ Choice Scarf
Ability: No Guard
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 196 Atk / 36 Def / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dynamic Punch
- Payback
- Ice Punch
- Rock Slide

i first built this team as a shit gimmick but it holds up pretty well, actually, beating dpp behemoths such as eseque. the trick is to use three brokemons: scarf machop, scarf snover, and scarf gligar

Drifloon @ Focus Sash
Ability: Unburden
Level: 5
EVs: 116 Atk / 196 SpA / 196 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Explosion
- Shadow Ball
- Sucker Punch
- Thunderbolt

Croagunk @ Life Orb
Ability: Dry Skin
Level: 5
EVs: 188 Atk / 188 SpA / 116 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Fake Out
- Sucker Punch
- Vacuum Wave
- Dark Pulse

Munchlax @ Oran Berry
Ability: Thick Fat
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 36 Def / 236 SpD
Brave Nature
- Return
- Earthquake
- Pursuit
- Protect

Snover @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Snow Warning
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 184 SpA / 200 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Blizzard
- Energy Ball
- Water Pulse
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Diglett @ Focus Sash
Ability: Arena Trap
Level: 5
EVs: 240 Atk / 236 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Sucker Punch
- Substitute

Gligar @ Life Orb
Ability: Sand Veil
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Aqua Tail
- Night Slash

lo gligar is a cute set i dont see too often. the rest of the team is just slapped on team members bc theres like 8 viable mons in this meta

Hippopotas @ Oran Berry
Ability: Sand Stream
Level: 5
EVs: 212 HP / 36 Atk / 212 Def / 36 SpD
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Crunch
- Slack Off

Gligar @ BrightPowder
Ability: Sand Veil
Level: 5
EVs: 156 HP / 236 Def / 76 SpD
Impish Nature
- Substitute
- Roost
- Earthquake
- Aqua Tail

Munchlax @ Oran Berry
Ability: Thick Fat
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 36 Def / 236 SpD
Brave Nature
- Return
- Earthquake
- Pursuit
- Protect

Ponyta @ Oran Berry
Ability: Flash Fire
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 240 Atk / 196 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Fire Blast
- Return
- Quick Attack
- Hidden Power [Grass]

Snover @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Snow Warning
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 184 SpA / 200 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Blizzard
- Energy Ball
- Water Pulse
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Croagunk @ Life Orb
Ability: Dry Skin
Level: 5
EVs: 188 Atk / 188 SpA / 116 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Fake Out
- Sucker Punch
- Vacuum Wave
- Dark Pulse

use this team if you really, really hate your opponent, and want to get across to them how much you hate and disrespect them as a person.


Eseque: you’re one of my best pals on smogon. learn what you can from being on here, but don’t give too much stock to the haters. you'll be fine.
Jac - :weary:. you’re the best manager jac you’re nice as fuck and hilarious. also v supportive of me. keep being weary as fuck i will miss you the most
Melon - thx for tutoring me i guess but also for just backing me 100% on like, everything, and being super nice. @ incoming LCers, get a tutor bc you’re gonna have a pal for life on here and its great. just teach the typechart to ur next tutee
sam-testings - eat the fucking sock asshole. but actually you are a genuinely nice dude. continue being the lc tour guide goat!! you’re a valued member of the community even if everyone really likes acting otherwise
infamy - stop being mean to everyone. other than that you are funny enough. good pal of mine as well. hasta la vista
Merritt - you are literally the textbook definition of a tsundere, it’s great. thanks for being supportive of me and also being the real snivy’s manager. i’d call u one of my actual friends here and i will miss you third most
Fiend - we dont talk much but i feel like u were still pretty chill and had my back.
OP - idk u were supportive when i was first starting out, ty and gl in future LC smoghorsing
Shrug - good jokes and also mad underrated battler. i swear u were in my head every time we fought but maybe i was just bad
JudasIscariot - excellent edgy meme friend. keep on doing u and keep ur head up; self deprecating gets u nowhere.
zizalith - very good new user, stop mass liking posts though. other than that you’re an excellent presence for the lc discord, lord knows we need more users that realize “being mean all the time ≠ funny”
Kavatika - also a good discord presence and very chill.
Finchinator - great teammate and very funny, gl being a sssmod
taranteeeno - shoutouts to you for being good at mons. also an excellent discord presence, which good players sometimes forgo. gl in the future dude
Hawkie - thank u for being my #1 cheerleader, i always wanted fans. jokes aside, another great chat presence, hope u stick around even if im not there to see it jaja
ItzViper482 - ah, viper-chama himself, 16kper, vivaper. i just came up with that last one but ANYWAY very good friend and, dare i say it, Mature For Your Age. also a good friend of mine, hope to see u next year in the snivys.
dcae - dgoat.
tcr - excellent snivy. keep doing you.
ggggd - voce me ofende como uma vaca (not really though) (gl in the future)
tko - funny and also a good player. great having those around
rssp1 - i know everyone collectively shits on u but dont let it get u down. praiserufflets
TruSwagblu - also another excellent edgy meme friend. teach me about vikingu onegaishimasu
Jox - the hero…


final notes: be less toxic to eachother one in a while. its strange how being nice changes things. pce
 
Why isn't there a format for LC random battles? This question has puzzled me for months, if not for years.

When I felt productive several months ago I programmed a random team generator for LC and collected sets for it (http://lcteamgen.herokuapp.com/), only to find out that a similar tool already exists (https://honko.github.io/pokemon-team-generator/).
When playing with randomized teams against both randomized and meta teams I had lots of surprisingly fun and exciting games where all kinds of mons were able to contribute to the battles.

I feel like LC low ladder has lots of newcomers to competitive pokemon that want to battle with cute baby mons but end up getting frustrated due to not being good enough and because of having to battle against considerably annoying metagame trends. LC random battles could be really enjoyable for them but also for competitive players looking for something different. Battle factory already exist but it can't quarantee LC games and contains only considerably viable mons. I remember when the old gens room created random battles for older generations, wouldn't it be nice if we could make one for LC?
 

zizalith

sweet disaster
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
im quitting mons here are my teams
:weary: (Slowpoke) @ Electrium Z
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 5
EVs: 196 HP / 116 Def / 196 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Flamethrower
- Psychic
- Zap Cannon

:pensive: (Onix) @ Eviolite
Ability: Weak Armor
Level: 5
EVs: 76 HP / 236 Atk / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Rock Blast
- Earthquake
- Explosion

:tired_face: (Snivy) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Contrary
Level: 5
EVs: 240 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Giga Drain
- Knock Off
- Hidden Power [Ground]

:smirk: (Mienfoo) @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 5
EVs: 196 Def / 36 SpD / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- High Jump Kick
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Fake Out

:smile: (Vullaby) @ Eviolite
Ability: Overcoat
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 76 Atk / 236 Def / 76 SpD
Impish Nature
- Roost
- Knock Off
- Brave Bird
- Defog

:thinking: (Abra) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Guard
Level: 5
EVs: 240 SpA / 200 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 30 HP / 0 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 SpD / 30 Spe
- Psychic
- Dazzling Gleam
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Energy Ball

i used this in my match vs zoro (dont worry i remembered to change abra to the good ability this time) and its a really fun team. z-thunder slowpoke is NUTS and thanks fitzy for posting it in some ancient thread for me to steal

Doduo @ Berry Juice
Ability: Early Bird
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Jump Kick
- Quick Attack
- Swords Dance

Foongus @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 5
EVs: 124 HP / 160 Def / 160 SpD
Bold Nature
- Spore
- Sludge Bomb
- Giga Drain
- Synthesis

Mienfoo @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 5
EVs: 196 Def / 36 SpD / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- High Jump Kick
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Fake Out

Onix @ Berry Juice
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 5
EVs: 76 HP / 236 Atk / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Rock Blast
- Earthquake
- Endure

Grimer-Alola @ Eviolite
Ability: Poison Touch
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 196 Atk / 196 Def / 36 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Fire Punch
- Knock Off
- Gunk Shot
- Shadow Sneak

Ponyta @ Grassium Z
Ability: Flash Fire
Level: 5
EVs: 76 Def / 236 SpA / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
- Solar Beam
- Flamethrower
- Flame Charge
- Overheat

disclaimer: all of my teams are one gimmick mon + 5 glue mons. anyway, sd doduo is a fun wincon, and grassium pony is still as wild as ever just less common so i threw that on there too. pursuit grimer-a SUCKS.

:weary: (Abra) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Guard
Level: 5
EVs: 240 SpA / 200 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Dazzling Gleam
- Counter
- Protect

rs pee pee (Vullaby) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Overcoat
Level: 5
EVs: 156 Atk / 76 Def / 76 SpA / 76 SpD / 116 Spe
Hardy Nature
- Knock Off
- Brave Bird
- Heat Wave
- Hidden Power [Grass]

viper-chama.. (Gastly) @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
Level: 5
EVs: 200 SpA / 80 SpD / 200 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 30 HP / 0 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 SpD / 30 Spe
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Substitute

mert (Snubbull) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 116 Atk / 116 Def / 196 SpD / 36 Spe
Impish Nature
- Play Rough
- Fire Punch
- Thief
- Substitute

kazuGOATmi (Snivy) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Contrary
Level: 5
EVs: 240 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Giga Drain
- Knock Off
- Hidden Power [Ground]

razzleri (Pawniard) @ Eviolite
Ability: Defiant
Level: 5
EVs: 156 Atk / 36 Def / 116 SpD / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- Iron Head
- Stealth Rock

i used this in my match vs taranteeeeeeeno. rlly solid team overall imo except for the fact that it fucking dies to ponyta as seen in the replay

Timburr @ Eviolite
Ability: Iron Fist
Level: 5
EVs: 196 Atk / 156 Def / 156 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Mach Punch
- Knock Off
- Ice Punch

Spritzee @ Eviolite
Ability: Aroma Veil
Level: 5
EVs: 52 HP / 116 Def / 252 SpA / 76 SpD / 12 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Moonblast
- Nasty Plot

Ponyta @ Eviolite
Ability: Flame Body
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 76 Def / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flame Charge
- Flare Blitz
- High Horsepower
- Morning Sun

Vullaby @ Eviolite
Ability: Overcoat
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 156 Atk / 76 SpD / 116 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Knock Off
- Roost
- U-turn

Snivy @ Normalium Z
Ability: Contrary
Level: 5
EVs: 240 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leaf Storm
- Wring Out
- Defog
- Glare

Ferroseed @ Eviolite
Ability: Iron Barbs
Level: 5
EVs: 84 HP / 36 Atk / 108 Def / 228 SpD / 36 Spe
Impish Nature
- Bullet Seed
- Knock Off
- Thunder Wave
- Stealth Rock

i built this bc i was fucking sick of losing to foongus all the time. ferro + pony + vulla and zwro snivy too bc fuck that mon, seriously.

weak and strong (Amaura) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Snow Warning
Level: 5
EVs: 60 HP / 220 SpA / 228 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blizzard
- Earth Power
- Thunderbolt
- Ancient Power

wet and dry (Doduo) @ Life Orb
Ability: Early Bird
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Knock Off
- Jump Kick
- Quick Attack

right and wrong (Foongus) @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 5
EVs: 124 HP / 156 Def / 160 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 30 HP / 0 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 SpD / 30 Spe
- Spore
- Sludge Bomb
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Fighting]

live and die (Onix) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 5
EVs: 76 HP / 236 Atk / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Rock Blast
- Earthquake
- Endure

sane and gone (Snivy) @ Normalium Z
Ability: Contrary
Level: 5
EVs: 240 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 SpD
- Leaf Storm
- Wring Out
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Defog

love and not (Slowpoke) @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 156 Def / 116 SpA / 116 SpD / 76 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Psychic
- Fire Blast
- Slack Off

i was originally planning on making my quitting post an RMT using this team bc i like it that much but it'd be really embarrassing if i left smogon with SIX rmts that never made it into team showcase so im leaving it at 5. this team is in like 80% of my replays. basically just put on a shitload of pressure with doduo and amaura. i also use a version of the team with snatch pawniard to fuck dig up but with that u just die to scarf foo

Venonat @ Normalium Z
Ability: Compound Eyes
Level: 5
EVs: 196 HP / 116 Def / 156 SpD
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sleep Powder
- Flash
- Baton Pass
- Agility

Vullaby @ Eviolite
Ability: Overcoat
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 156 Atk / 76 SpD / 116 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Knock Off
- Roost
- U-turn

Cacnea @ BrightPowder
Ability: Sand Veil
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 116 Def / 116 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Sandstorm
- Seed Bomb
- Focus Punch
- Sucker Punch

Diglett @ Groundium Z
Ability: Sand Force
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Sucker Punch
- Substitute

Spritzee @ Eviolite
Ability: Aroma Veil
Level: 5
EVs: 212 HP / 196 Def / 12 SpA / 76 SpD / 12 Spe
Bold Nature
- Wish
- Protect
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast

Mienfoo @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 5
EVs: 76 HP / 76 Atk / 116 Def / 196 SpD
Impish Nature
- Baton Pass
- Swords Dance
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off

this is the single greatest team i've ever crafted. lead with venonat. step one: sleep powder. step two: zflash. step three: agility. step four: pass to foo. step five: swords dance. step six: pass to cacnea. step seven: set up sandstorm. step eight: you fucking win. yes i know cacnea gets swords dance but waste of a moveslot.

nozomi (Abra) (F) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Guard
Level: 5
EVs: 36 Atk / 240 SpA / 200 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Dazzling Gleam
- Counter
- Energy Ball

yohane (Gastly) (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
Level: 5
EVs: 200 SpA / 80 SpD / 200 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Substitute

ch-ch-ch-CHIA (Turtwig) (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Overgrow
Level: 5
EVs: 244 Def / 236 SpD / 28 Spe
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Superpower

nico (Spritzee) (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Aroma Veil
Level: 5
EVs: 212 HP / 196 Def / 12 SpA / 76 SpD / 12 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Protect
- Moonblast
- Nasty Plot

umi (Staryu) @ Life Orb
Ability: Analytic
Level: 5
EVs: 76 Def / 196 SpA / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Rapid Spin

riko (Mienfoo) (F) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 36 Def / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- High Jump Kick
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Acrobatics

this is the turtwig set people SHOULD use. dual screens rocks baby. add glue mons and u have a fun team thats basically standard as shit but it has a turtwig so you can still call it wild

bluebell (Gastly) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
Level: 5
EVs: 36 Def / 196 SpA / 76 SpD / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Bomb
- Thunderbolt
- Dazzling Gleam

cornflower (Doduo) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Early Bird
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Knock Off
- Jump Kick
- Quick Attack

azure (Mudbray) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Stamina
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 196 Atk / 36 Def / 156 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Heavy Slam
- Rock Slide
- Stealth Rock

cerulean (Snubbull) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 36 Atk / 196 Def / 116 SpD / 116 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Thief
- Play Rough
- Fire Punch
- Thunder Wave

ultramarine (Grimer-Alola) @ Eviolite
Ability: Poison Touch
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 116 Atk / 196 Def / 116 SpA / 36 SpD
Brave Nature
- Knock Off
- Giga Drain
- Shadow Sneak
- Fire Blast

blue (Mienfoo) @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 5
EVs: 200 Atk / 36 Def / 36 SpD / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- High Jump Kick
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Taunt

i LOVE scarf doduo/scarf gastly on the same team. afraid of onix????? ok that's fair, mon's broke, but giga drain grimer's there at least. again pursuit grimer SUCKS

sprite (Croagunk) @ Eviolite
Ability: Dry Skin
Level: 5
EVs: 52 HP / 116 Def / 188 SpA / 116 SpD / 36 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Sludge Bomb
- Shadow Ball
- Vacuum Wave

cola (Scraggy) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Moxie
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 156 Atk / 36 Def / 36 SpD / 212 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- High Jump Kick
- Knock Off
- Substitute

pepsi (Archen) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Defeatist
Level: 5
EVs: 184 Atk / 76 Def / 8 SpA / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Acrobatics
- Head Smash
- Stealth Rock
- Hidden Power [Grass]

ramune (Staryu) @ Eviolite
Ability: Analytic
Level: 5
EVs: 196 SpA / 76 SpD / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Rapid Spin
- Thunderbolt
- Psychic

pepper (Doduo) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Early Bird
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Jump Kick
- Knock Off
- Brave Bird

mountain dew (Diglett) @ Groundium Z
Ability: Arena Trap
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Substitute
- Rock Slide
- Sucker Punch

i built this with inf once upon a time. he has some really wack ideas for sets but its a fun one, if a bit outdated.

Doduo @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Early Bird
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Knock Off
- Jump Kick
- Quick Attack

Gastly @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
Level: 5
EVs: 200 SpA / 80 SpD / 200 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Substitute

Abra @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Guard
Level: 5
EVs: 76 HP / 236 SpA / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psychic
- Dazzling Gleam
- Counter
- Energy Ball

Bunnelby @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Huge Power
Level: 5
EVs: 228 Atk / 52 Def / 220 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Return
- U-turn
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

Elekid @ Life Orb
Ability: Vital Spirit
Level: 5
EVs: 240 SpA / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Grass]

Mienfoo @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Reckless
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 36 Def / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- High Jump Kick
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Drain Punch

defensive synergy? taking hits? switching in? FUCK all that, with this team you just press buttons until the game ends in 10 or less turns. hell yeah.


Diglett @ Life Orb
Ability: Arena Trap
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Sucker Punch
- Substitute

Fletchling
Ability: Gale Wings
Level: 5
EVs: 76 HP / 196 Atk / 92 Def / 100 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Acrobatics
- Swords Dance
- Roost
- U-turn

Cottonee @ Eviolite
Ability: Prankster
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 196 Def / 196 SpD
Bold Nature
- Dazzling Gleam
- Knock Off
- Giga Drain
- Encore

Staryu @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 156 Def / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Scald
- Psychic
- Recover

Pawniard @ Eviolite
Ability: Defiant
Level: 5
EVs: 156 Atk / 36 Def / 116 SpD / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Iron Head
- Sucker Punch
- Stealth Rock

Mienfoo @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 5
EVs: 190 HP / 116 Def / 196 SpD
Impish Nature
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Taunt

this is the only team i built with melon while he was tutoring me, but since melon's the greatest pokemon player ever put on earth im sure its good. we all remember how fletchdig works.

Vulpix @ Heat Rock
Ability: Drought
Level: 5
EVs: 196 SpA / 76 SpD / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Flamethrower
- Energy Ball
- Extrasensory

Bellsprout @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
Level: 5
EVs: 76 Def / 196 SpA / 36 SpD / 196 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Growth
- Weather Ball
- Solar Beam
- Sludge Bomb

Bulbasaur @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
Level: 5
EVs: 240 SpA / 240 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Sleep Powder
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Solar Beam

Diglett @ Life Orb
Ability: Arena Trap
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Substitute
- Rock Slide
- Sucker Punch

Magnemite @ Berry Juice
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 5
EVs: 36 Def / 236 SpA / 236 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flash Cannon
- Volt Switch
- Endure
- Recycle

Timburr @ Eviolite
Ability: Iron Fist
Level: 5
EVs: 76 HP / 196 Atk / 236 SpD
Careful Nature
- Drain Punch
- Mach Punch
- Fire Punch
- Thunder Punch

obligatory sun team. i had a better one in my teambuilder but i think it was the doka one that was going around back then, so take this slightly gimmicky-er sun team

Snivy @ Eviolite
Ability: Contrary
Level: 5
EVs: 240 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 1 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 SpD
- Leaf Storm
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Glare
- Synthesis

Spritzee @ Eviolite
Ability: Aroma Veil
Level: 5
EVs: 212 HP / 196 Def / 12 SpA / 76 SpD / 12 Spe
Bold Nature
- Moonblast
- Covet
- Wish
- Protect

Gothita @ Eviolite
Ability: Shadow Tag
Level: 5
EVs: 156 HP / 116 Def / 76 SpD / 156 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psyshock
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Thunderbolt

Onix @ Berry Juice
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 5
EVs: 76 HP / 236 Atk / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Blast
- Taunt
- Stealth Rock

Pawniard @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Defiant
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 236 Atk / 36 Def / 36 SpD / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Iron Head
- Pursuit
- Brick Break

Timburr @ Eviolite
Ability: Guts
Level: 5
EVs: 116 Atk / 156 Def / 236 SpD
Careful Nature
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- Mach Punch
- Bulk Up

this is labeled "i stole this from op" in my teambuilder, but i believe i just took the mons and not the sets? either way, this is probably an actually halfway decent oras team for ur viewing pleasure. my deepest apologies to mr. power if this is just straight up his team


Drifloon @ Focus Sash
Ability: Unburden
Level: 5
EVs: 116 Atk / 196 SpA / 196 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Explosion
- Shadow Ball
- Sucker Punch
- Thunderbolt

Gligar @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sand Veil
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Adamant Nature
- U-turn
- Earthquake
- Aqua Tail
- Aerial Ace

Ponyta @ Oran Berry
Ability: Flash Fire
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 240 Atk / 196 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Fire Blast
- Return
- Quick Attack
- Hidden Power [Grass]

Snover @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Snow Warning
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 184 SpA / 200 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Blizzard
- Energy Ball
- Water Pulse
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Diglett @ Focus Sash
Ability: Arena Trap
Level: 5
EVs: 240 Atk / 236 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Sucker Punch
- Substitute

Machop @ Choice Scarf
Ability: No Guard
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 196 Atk / 36 Def / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dynamic Punch
- Payback
- Ice Punch
- Rock Slide

i first built this team as a shit gimmick but it holds up pretty well, actually, beating dpp behemoths such as eseque. the trick is to use three brokemons: scarf machop, scarf snover, and scarf gligar

Drifloon @ Focus Sash
Ability: Unburden
Level: 5
EVs: 116 Atk / 196 SpA / 196 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Explosion
- Shadow Ball
- Sucker Punch
- Thunderbolt

Croagunk @ Life Orb
Ability: Dry Skin
Level: 5
EVs: 188 Atk / 188 SpA / 116 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Fake Out
- Sucker Punch
- Vacuum Wave
- Dark Pulse

Munchlax @ Oran Berry
Ability: Thick Fat
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 36 Def / 236 SpD
Brave Nature
- Return
- Earthquake
- Pursuit
- Protect

Snover @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Snow Warning
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 184 SpA / 200 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Blizzard
- Energy Ball
- Water Pulse
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Diglett @ Focus Sash
Ability: Arena Trap
Level: 5
EVs: 240 Atk / 236 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Sucker Punch
- Substitute

Gligar @ Life Orb
Ability: Sand Veil
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Aqua Tail
- Night Slash

lo gligar is a cute set i dont see too often. the rest of the team is just slapped on team members bc theres like 8 viable mons in this meta

Hippopotas @ Oran Berry
Ability: Sand Stream
Level: 5
EVs: 212 HP / 36 Atk / 212 Def / 36 SpD
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Crunch
- Slack Off

Gligar @ BrightPowder
Ability: Sand Veil
Level: 5
EVs: 156 HP / 236 Def / 76 SpD
Impish Nature
- Substitute
- Roost
- Earthquake
- Aqua Tail

Munchlax @ Oran Berry
Ability: Thick Fat
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 36 Def / 236 SpD
Brave Nature
- Return
- Earthquake
- Pursuit
- Protect

Ponyta @ Oran Berry
Ability: Flash Fire
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 240 Atk / 196 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Fire Blast
- Return
- Quick Attack
- Hidden Power [Grass]

Snover @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Snow Warning
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 184 SpA / 200 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Blizzard
- Energy Ball
- Water Pulse
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Croagunk @ Life Orb
Ability: Dry Skin
Level: 5
EVs: 188 Atk / 188 SpA / 116 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Fake Out
- Sucker Punch
- Vacuum Wave
- Dark Pulse

use this team if you really, really hate your opponent, and want to get across to them how much you hate and disrespect them as a person.


Eseque: you’re one of my best pals on smogon. learn what you can from being on here, but don’t give too much stock to the haters. you'll be fine.
Jac - :weary:. you’re the best manager jac you’re nice as fuck and hilarious. also v supportive of me. keep being weary as fuck i will miss you the most
Melon - thx for tutoring me i guess but also for just backing me 100% on like, everything, and being super nice. @ incoming LCers, get a tutor bc you’re gonna have a pal for life on here and its great. just teach the typechart to ur next tutee
sam-testings - eat the fucking sock asshole. but actually you are a genuinely nice dude. continue being the lc tour guide goat!! you’re a valued member of the community even if everyone really likes acting otherwise
infamy - stop being mean to everyone. other than that you are funny enough. good pal of mine as well. hasta la vista
Merritt - you are literally the textbook definition of a tsundere, it’s great. thanks for being supportive of me and also being the real snivy’s manager. i’d call u one of my actual friends here and i will miss you third most
Fiend - we dont talk much but i feel like u were still pretty chill and had my back.
OP - idk u were supportive when i was first starting out, ty and gl in future LC smoghorsing
Shrug - good jokes and also mad underrated battler. i swear u were in my head every time we fought but maybe i was just bad
JudasIscariot - excellent edgy meme friend. keep on doing u and keep ur head up; self deprecating gets u nowhere.
zizalith - very good new user, stop mass liking posts though. other than that you’re an excellent presence for the lc discord, lord knows we need more users that realize “being mean all the time ≠ funny”
Kavatika - also a good discord presence and very chill.
Finchinator - great teammate and very funny, gl being a sssmod
taranteeeno - shoutouts to you for being good at mons. also an excellent discord presence, which good players sometimes forgo. gl in the future dude
Hawkie - thank u for being my #1 cheerleader, i always wanted fans. jokes aside, another great chat presence, hope u stick around even if im not there to see it jaja
ItzViper482 - ah, viper-chama himself, 16kper, vivaper. i just came up with that last one but ANYWAY very good friend and, dare i say it, Mature For Your Age. also a good friend of mine, hope to see u next year in the snivys.
dcae - dgoat.
tcr - excellent snivy. keep doing you.
ggggd - voce me ofende como uma vaca (not really though) (gl in the future)
tko - funny and also a good player. great having those around
rssp1 - i know everyone collectively shits on u but dont let it get u down. praiserufflets
TruSwagblu - also another excellent edgy meme friend. teach me about vikingu onegaishimasu
Jox - the hero…


final notes: be less toxic to eachother one in a while. its strange how being nice changes things. pce
ill stop mass liking gummy.......................... just for u :psycry:
 

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