Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread

There's two main things that Diglett provides that I feel are good for LC. Diglett provides a consistent way to guarantee removal of dangerous Pokemon who are otherwise difficult to actually KO - think Pursuit Trapping but better. Diglett also helps keep some Pokemon not just down but nearly non-existent which I'd also say is definitely desirable in LC. I'll start with why I believe the first is important, then move to the second.
I fundamentally disagree with this, and I'll start off by saying if this is your stance then it's gonna be particularly hard to convince you otherwise because we have inherently different beliefs on what we want out of an LC metagame. Diglett is not like pursuit trapping. Pursuit doesn't automatically prevent you from switching and, unless you're a Gastly or Abra, allows you to make a proper play or not. This makes Diglett massively better than pursuit and probs shouldn't be brought up in comparison. I also don't believe in making entire groups of Pokémon virtually unusable, which btw is different than metagame trends making certain pokemon less viable in a particular metagame. Diglett, which floats around the 40-50% usage tier in tournaments, will trap the mons in question consistently, so what's the point in running them? I don't see this as healthy metagame formation but rather forceful exclusion.

First, guaranteed KOs. Diglett provides strong, tangible counterplay to the "bulky Pokemon that sticks around forever" trope that's existed ever since BW and Eviolite dropped. This is Pokemon like Mienfoo, Foongus, even Pawniard and Spritzee to an extent. For Mienfoo and Foongus a lot of points as to why Regenerator isn't exactly the most balanced thing ever were brought up (although Regenerator shouldn't be banned either), and Diglett's presence forces Mienfoo and Foongus to play more conservatively after they've been weakened, rather than being able to continuously wear down the opponent while not suffering similarly.
Again, I'm pretty far on the other spectrum on this. Even that initial statement, "guaranteed kos", I don't think should sit well with competitive pokemon players in general. That's the point of playing this game, nothing's guaranteed and you should have to work for ko's. That's part of what makes playing this game fun and interesting. I don't think guaranteed ko's are healthy at all, and this is why I think trapping in general comes up as often as it does. Next, you reference bulky LC mons that never die thing. You're right about the BW thing, except the problem is that the bulky wall trope hasn't existed since BW. The knock off buff completely eviscerated any notion that defensive mons outweigh offensive, and I've only seen that idea get substantiated more with the advent of z-moves. Defensive mons, maybe aside from Foongus, struggle to keep up in LC, and I think knock off and overall offensive pressure have more to do with that than Diglett. Heck, the really strong defensive mons like Spritzee are not what Diglett is trapping, although it can in a pinch possibly, but rather dangerous offensive threats and defensive checks to threatening mons.

Responses to this might include examples of other metagames, where bulky Pokemon who stick around for a long time are prevalent in stall and how that, while subjectively 'unfun', isn't unhealthy. The different lies in the fact that the bulky LC Pokemon in question are nowhere near as passive as stallmons usually are - Mienfoo, Foongus, and Spritzee are all rather powerful and can actively win games as opposed to the "not losing" that stall attempts to do. Diglett allows playstyles like HO to overcome balance or bulky offense, rather than having to fight and be taken out by a Pokemon that refuses to die.
Again, I don't think these mons exist in the current meta, but while you argue it's because of Diglett, I argue it's for reason such as Knock Off and threats like clamperl vullaby mudbray 2hkoing or ohkoing everything in sight. This is not BW, which btw is still as offensive as ever in its current LCPL state.
The second one is related to reducing diversity. While people might complain that LC looks very samey, that there's no room for experimentation, or that there's no reason to use lesser seen Pokemon, I definitely disagree with that and encourage you to actually try and break the mold yourself before giving up. We've seen Clamperl be rediscovered and rise to prominence, Tirtouga not be considered just "Onix/Kabuto but better vs Torchic", and even Drowzee used successfully. Having a Pokemon work to moderate levels of success is not a particularly high bar to achieve, even in LC's current state.
I never once argued that I think LC is too samey and I don't like using the same pokemon over and over again. I argued that rather than shape the metagame in a healthy manner, Diglett completely eliminates the ability to use certain pokemon like no other mon does. You don't have counter play and you have no guarantee that you can use those pokemon consistently and to the best of their ability. I have no problem finding new pokemon to use, I simply have a problem with a single mon legitimately telling me "nope" and laughing in my face.

LC has over 250 legal Pokemon. While more than a quarter of those Pokemon are directly outclassed in every way or are unusable (things like Weedle or Fomantis), many more fill the spot of "usable with some team support". Pokemon like Cyndaquil, Binacle, Skrelp, Blitzle, all of them can be used, they just aren't as good generally speaking. However, Diglett keeps many of them in check hard enough that they won't be used, making the teambuilding burden of checking them significantly lessened. There's a claim that Diglett puts a heavy burden on teambuilding - imagine how much more you'd have to stretch to account for Z-move Skrelp, bulky 2 move coverage Ponyta and Larvesta, NP 3 attack salandit, recycle Magnemite being used even more, bulky chou, voltturn being absolutely everywhere, ect ect. Diglett means you can't easily use some Pokemon, yes, but it also means there's a low risk that you'll have to fight them. And there's a lot more potential threats than there are slots to cover them all.
I am scared of none of those pokemon you mentioned if I don't have access to Diglett and my team building processes would probably be unaffected. Cyndaquil, Binacle, Skrelp, and Blitzle, really? Nevertheless, despite the fact that Ponyta will be better, counter play exists and the metagame will adapt. There is no counterplay to Diglett, you are trapped.

On a more personal level, I also speak from the time we did a suspect test and banned Diglett from the ladder. While this was in another gen and things could certainly have changed since then, I have not so fond memories of that incredibly shitty metagame where fat things didn't die for ages, burns were spread freely, and if you went two games without encountering half a team of voltturn mons you were lucky.
I don't really see this as evidence as, like you said, this was a completely different gen, Dig didn't have access to z-eq and again I don't ever remember seeing ORAS in a state of bulky mon domination other than maybe Porygon but lucky for us that shit's banned lol.
 

sister

Banned deucer.
I'm not convinced that this idea of 'guranteed KOs' is necessarily as bad as you make it seem. Ya, it would be if Diglett could come in on and one-shot every top mon but it simply can't. What I tried to convey in my original post is that the depth of Diglett comes from the positioning required to get yourself in the match-up where you can snag that 'guranteed KO.' I think this adds another layer of strategy to the metagame thats worth the obsolescence of some variable shit-mons like Cyndaquil. Despite Diglett we still see mons like Magnemite, Elekid, Ponyta, Mareanie and Pawniard be effective when, if Dig was as over-centrializing as some claim, should be decidedly unviable. I'm just not seeing how banning it would make the meta any more fun or emgaging.

Also, besides from Diglett, 'gurantees' are big in Pokemon- much more so than in any other competitevely level game. That is why we have a damage calculator, to measure the degrees of 'guaranteed-ness' of certain plays vs. others. If you can show me why Diglett in particular makes the meta particularly unbearable I will gladly side with you but right now I'm just not seeing it.
 
I'm not convinced that this idea of 'guranteed KOs' is necessarily as bad as you make it seem. Ya, it would be if Diglett could come in on and one-shot every top mon but it simply can't. What I tried to convey in my original post is that the depth of Diglett comes from the positioning required to get yourself in the match-up where you can snag that 'guranteed KO.' I think this adds another layer of strategy to the metagame thats worth the obsolescence of some variable shit-mons like Cyndaquil. Despite Diglett we still see mons like Magnemite, Elekid, Ponyta, Mareanie and Pawniard be effective when, if Dig was as over-centrializing as some claim, should be decidedly unviable. I'm just not seeing how banning it would make the meta any more fun or emgaging.

Also, besides from Diglett, 'gurantees' are big in Pokemon- much more so than in any other competitevely level game. That is why we have a damage calculator, to measure the degrees of 'guaranteed-ness' of certain plays vs. others. If you can show me why Diglett in particular makes the meta particularly unbearable I will gladly side with you but right now I'm just not seeing it.
First off, if Diglett came in and one-shot every single top mon I'm pretty sure this mon woulda been perma banned instantly with the advent of gen 7. I'm not arguing that Diglett can do that, and if your barometer for Diglett's brokenness is set at "has to trap every top mon", then I think you're a little off base. Trapping isn't and never has been about being able to trap every mon in existence. It's about trapping a significant enough portion of the metagame to make certain pokemon simply obsolete and tipping the scales in the users favor during the course of a match. I think it's been shown a fair amount that aside from the absurd usage that Mienfoo and Vullaby get, Diglett is the closest thing to having an easy button in USUM LC. It supports literally every mon, and yes I will stand by my statement that with the right support Diglett can trap a very large portion of the metagame.

Continually, idk what it is with Merritt and you but I never brought up Cyndaquil, or any other shit mons for that matter. I am not mad that Diglett makes it so I can not use Blitzle, but rather the significant effect it has on the viability of non-shit mons and the effect it has on almost every relevant set in LC. Iron Defense Mareanie, WA Onix, Flame Charge Pony, Eviolite Staryu, Scarf Magnemite, the list goes on. These are just select mons that almost have to run certain sets just to have a chance at succeeding in a Diglett meta. Not that they exclusively run those sets for Diglett, but it certainly a top factor. Yes you still see these mons but they are hard compartmentalized into very specific sets. Obviously Diglett isn't going to completely get rid of Pawniard and Mareanie usage because their upside is simply too good, but it does make them harder to justify running when 40-50% of teams are running a mon that outright traps them.

Lastly, I would argue the exact opposite when it comes to guarantee's in competitive pokemon. What other high level competitive games or sports or w/e use the level of luck involved in Pokémon? Almost every move made in Pokémon is based on luck and risk management, where as many of the other competitive games I've played and watched almost exclusively relied on superior play. The pokemon company and gamefreak have explicitly stated on numerous occasions that they add elements of luck in pokemon to adhere to younger audiences and make sure that experienced players don't always have the upper hand. We all know too well that Pokémon simply doesn't always come down to superior play and almost nothing is guaranteed. Damage Calculators, really, that's your argument of exactitude (p sure I just made up this word) in competitive mons? Those very calcs you mention aren't even exact within themselves because, as you probably know, LC rolls are a bitch and again just another thing that comes down to luck. No matter how you look at it, Mons, and LC especially, comes down to working for KOs and measuring risk / reward to put yourself in advantageous positions. From how I see it, arguing that Diglett is good for the meta is just a sorry excuse for letting you have those precise, guaranteed KOs that make your job easier.
 
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sister

Banned deucer.
First off, if Diglett came in and one-shot every single top mon I'm pretty sure this mon woulda been perma banned instantly with the advent of gen 7. I'm not arguing that Diglett can do that, and if your barometer for Diglett's brokenness is set at "has to trap every top mon", then I think you're a little off base. Trapping isn't and never has been about being able to trap every mon in existence. It's about trapping a significant enough portion of the metagame to make certain pokemon simply obsolete and tipping the scales in the users favor during the course of a match. I think it's been shown a fair amount that aside from the absurd usage that Mienfoo and Vullaby get, Diglett is the closest thing to having an easy button in USUM LC. It supports literally every mon, and yes I will stand by my statement that with the right support Diglett can trap a very large portion of the metagame.

Continually, idk what it is with Merritt and you but I never brought up Cyndaquil, or any other shit mons for that matter. I am not mad that Diglett makes it so I can not use Blitzle, but rather the significant effect it has on the viability of non-shit mons and the effect it has on almost every relevant set in LC. Iron Defense Mareanie, WA Onix, Flame Charge Pony, Eviolite Staryu, Scarf Magnemite, the list goes on. These are just select mons that almost have to run certain sets just to have a chance at succeeding in a Diglett meta. Not that they exclusively run those sets for Diglett, but it certainly a top factor. Yes you still see these mons but they are hard compartmentalized into very specific sets. Obviously Diglett isn't going to completely get rid of Pawniard and Mareanie usage because their upside is simply too good, but it does make them harder to justify running when 40-50% of teams are running a mon that outright traps them.

Lastly, I would argue the exact opposite when it comes to guarantee's in competitive pokemon. What other high level competitive games or sports or w/e use the level of luck involved in Pokémon? Almost every move made in Pokémon is based on luck and risk management, where as many of the other competitive games I've played and watched almost exclusively relied on superior play. The pokemon company and gamefreak have explicitly stated on numerous occasions that they add elements of luck in pokemon to adhere to younger audiences and make sure that experienced players don't always have the upper hand. We all know too well that Pokémon simply doesn't always come down to superior play and almost nothing is guaranteed. Damage Calculators, really, that's your argument of exactitude (p sure I just made up this word) in competitive mons? Those very calcs you mention aren't even exact within themselves because, as you probably know, LC rolls are a bitch and again just another thing that comes down to luck. No matter how you look at it, Mons, and LC especially, comes down to working for KOs and measuring risk / reward to put yourself in advantageous positions. From how I see it, arguing that Diglett is good for the meta is just a sorry excuse for letting you have those precise, guaranteed KOs that make your job easier.
Yes, I am fully aware that, given the 'right support' (as vague as a claim that is) Diglett can trap everything in the metagame. My point is, and always has been since my original post, that this said 'support' you so readily condemn is actually good for the metagame. But before I get into that further, let's take a look at the following argument you brought up:

"but rather the significant effect it has on the viability of non-shit mons and the effect it [Diglett] has on almost every relevant set in LC. Iron Defense Mareanie, WA Onix, Flame Charge Pony, Eviolite Staryu, Scarf Magnemite, the list goes on."

I have a major problem with these claims both on a fundamental level and on a specific one. Fundamentally- Pokemon adapting to threats is suddenly a bad thing? I'd understand if the sets you are bringing up are objectively inferior in every way, but, aside from ID-Mareanie, they straight up aren't. WA-Onix has leagues of viability even in a non-Diglett context. If anything, I'd argue the omnipresence of Vullaby has as much do to, if not more, with that set rising to prominence. The same can be said for Scarf Mag, which has been a fine set for a long while and owes its viability to Wingull as much as Diglett. Flame Charge Pony and Evio Staryu are legitimite sets as well, are these seriously the best examples you can come up with? Am I expected to believe that its a bad thing that Pokemon have to run certain sets to remain competitive in a meta? What about running Overcoat Vullaby for Foongus or Sludge Wave over Bomb on Mareanie to beat Chespin? Are these not worth mentioning on the same merits?
And in what ways are Pawniard and Mareanie, and other Dig-weak Pokemon, hard to justify? They continue to be some of the top used mons in meta. As do (as I mentioned in my previous post) Magnemite, Elekid, Ponyta, etc.

Anyway, back to my original point. This aforementioned support that requires Diglett to do its job in many cases (and to some extent, the fear of Diglett revenge killing you) is WHY I think Diglett provides depth to the metagame in an interesting way.

Lets say you make it to the finals of the seasonal and you're bringing your favorite Reckless Scarf Mienfoo Fightspam team. You start the match and immediately assess the enemies team for things that potentially wall your sweep- lets take a common one- Spritzee. The task you now face in reference to Diglett is getting to the point where Diglett can snag that 'guranteed ko' against Spritzee- around 61%-88%, with evio knocked off. On the flipside, your opponent- recognizing they need Spritzee to avoid getting rolled by HJK- will need to do everything in their power to avoid the situation where the 'guranteed ko' is possible to happen. See, I italics that part because it is very important, and feeds into the next part of your argument, which I further take issue with. And yes I recognize that this is a hypothetical, sure, but it illustrates the concept I am trying to convey here: this battle of knowing what your opponent needs to win vs. what you need, what allows Diglett to ko vs. what doesn't. Again, this feeds into the point about guranteed kos.

You seem to think they're bad, and you completely scoffed at my suggestion that Pokemon is heavily based on 'exactitude' (big fan of that word) all the while completely missing the point of my argument. Pokemon is all about GETTING to those degrees of guranteedness I referred too. Diglett ALONE does not provide guranteed KOs, but provides them as a GOAL TO WORK TOWARDS in the match. Through the means of a damage calculator, proper scouting and skilled plays, you should be able to assess, often to the exact decimal, the amount of hit points the enemy needs to be dropped to before you can click that Z-tect button. And this isnt just the case with Diglett but with every mon- this 'exactitude' should be in your mind at all times- knowing WHEN you are able to get the ko and setting yourself to get it are, and should be, huge parts of Pokemon. Is there risk involved? YES, of course. But that doesnt change the fact. Is there luck in Pokemon? Obviously yes, and its something most players often bemoan about, so Im not sure why you bring it up. Pokemon is about developing a plan and carrying it out. Every single decision you make in a match of Pokemon is working towards securing that level of guranteedness that sees you taking the victory. And to me, Diglett provides a deeper way at looking at that. Finally, your passive-aggressive insinuation that I only like Diglett because its 'easy' is baseless and immature, and only further shows the weakness in your own argument.
 
I really don’t mean to be rude, but can we all just agree to disagree that in some basic way, diglett is controversial. Yes, trapping sucks, there is no counterplay for it. But you have to remember, it’s part of lc. If we were to get rid of diglett there would just be something else that someone would call out, it never ends and will eventually create some garbage meta where everyone just uses one mon because not using it is basically suicide because there are no good options left...

....wait a minute...


... mienfoo

Joking aside, seriously just forget about diglett, he sucks, we get it, he’s good, we get it. But if we ban everything that is deemed too strong, there will be nothing left.

Edit, this forum is kinda stale, can we do something to start another conversation? Macle seems to be pretty good at it.
 

Merritt

literally the textbook definition of a tsundere
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
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uh huh

I've been checking out weather teams on alts recently and Sand is actually hella fun. Hippo is terrible compared to Mudbray although the reliable recovery is nice, but Drilbur is basically the best cleaner anybody could dream of. It's not great at sweeping which is real bad honestly, but with some support to weaken the enemy team (I've been doing spike stacking with pawn and frillish), Drilbur cleans up fine. It's also hilarious to have the opponent set up a Clamperl and then revenge it with something that sweeps right back. Easiest counterplay though is keeping something like Foongus in the back and with its Eviolite intact so that it can just cut Drilbur's sweep short.

Manual Sun sucks though. The Chlorophyll sweepers just can't spare the turns to set up Sunny Day themselves because they do have good checks (mostly Vullaby) that switch in when sun goes up and then can't be OHKOed so it's either let them die to do some chip or switch out and have accomplished squat. Support from something like Ponyta sounds good on paper but in practice it's only giving the chlorophyll sweeper one or two turns with sun up while they're on the field. Heat Rock suicide support might work I guess but that just feels way worse than Rain, which is better(?) but still not great. Wingull loves the -- acc Hurricanes though and LO gull is kind of cool. Same kind of issue as with Sun though, the turns are an issue.

Hail is probably the best weather in terms of viability but it's just unfun and whenever I use alolapix with veils and icy rock I always get a nagging feeling like "I could have done light clay and a sweeper who wasn't goddamn ashrew".
 
Was about to ask about the Uh huh at the beggining Merritt but realised that it was because my previous post was, is a word pointless, looks like that other conversation was over ages ago.

About the weather, I agree with sand being stupidly fun, hippo potato isn’t bad and the recovery from slack off is appreciated and the purple mole is fast, strong and loud. I’ve actually been having fun with lileep, it’s no foongus but it still tanks hits like a truck, especially with the SpD buff from sand. Switching in on waters and birds works fairly well too. Anywho, now I have a person to talk to (and bore to death) I was wondering how one deals with the nappy bird, this thing destroys me all the time and I need to know if I’m doing something wrong, don’t get me wrong, I don’t think it’s overpowered or anything, I just think it’s hard to play against.
 

Merritt

literally the textbook definition of a tsundere
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
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Onix, Tirtouga, and Spritzee are the really consistent answers to Vullaby. Bulky stuff not weak to flying or dark are alternatives, but don't do quite as well consistently. Pawniard's a fine option too. A lot of it is about experience and knowing how to play vs Vullaby in that specific situation.
 

Serene Grace

Live for the applause
is a Tiering Contributor
Hi I'm here making an official post about the latest hot topic: Z Me First Mienfoo. For the unaware, Z Me first copies your opponent's move, turns into a z move, increases the power by 1.5x, and then gives you a +2 speed boost. For example, a Mienfoo using Z Me First on a Vullaby using Brave Bird would turn into a Base 190 Flying type attack with a 1.5x boost that ohkoes a Vullaby and then doubles your speed. Pretty strong right? But what compounds this power is that Mienfoo can also baton pass the speed boost it gets from Z Me First. Add this to Mienfoo's versatile array of boosting moves like Swords Dance, and Mienfoo becomes an elite (and arguably broken) baton pass booster. While this post is mainly about Z Me first mienfoo and will need a larger sample size before its call it broken, it's also about the broader topic of Baton Pass.

The Set:
1540099854548.png

Mienfoo @ Normalium Z
Ability: Inner Focus
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 36 Def / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Me First
- High Jump Kick
- Baton Pass

Inner Focus lets you set up on opposing Mienfoo Fake Outs. You can easily set up an SD on a fake out, Z Me first the next move, and you're ready to pass a +2/+2 boost to whatever you want. But Mienfoo doesn't only set up on Fake Outs, it sets up on midground plays like pivoting Mienfoos, passive play, and outright brute force by turning your own attack against you with Z Me first. Not many things take on a +2 Mienfoo High Jump Kick either, so your opponent is usually forced to either go to Spritzee or Foongus to defend themselves. With such a linear choice of options, Mienfoo can easily baton pass into its friends like Overcoat Vullaby or a fairy resist. I don't think I need to explain why a +2/+2 passable boost is broken.

The surprise factor is what makes this set so damning and what makes passing so easy. It is almost impossible to discern this set at Team Preview so you are forced to play it like it's a regular Mienfoo. For example, in a lead mienfoo mirror, if your opponent clicks Fake out (the optimal play under normal circumstances) they are now staring at a +2/+2 Mienfoo ready to pass. There are also more implications about the "optimal play". For example, most Foongus teams don't like to switch Foongus hard into Mienfoo because a knocked foongus is a very sub par pokemon. Midground plays like switching in BJ Vullaby or Bulky Mienfoo instantly get punished. The risk vs reward is heavily skewed in favor of the user; one play is all it takes for the game to be effectively finished.
Mienfoo's combination of speed, power, and bulk make it a tremendous passer even when the situation isn't perfect. At its worst case scenario Mienfoo is still able to pass one of its stats reliably because all it needs is 1 free turn. An S rank pokemon like Mienfoo manufactures free turns at will because of how threatening it is, and almost anything in the tier is threatening when its atk or speed are doubled.


Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7lc-398985
Game 1 of the LC Open Finals, Lead Z me first mienfoo sets up with ease and passes to vullaby, the game is effectively over by turn 2.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7lc-813794086
A common situation, lead mienfoo mirror where Z me first mienfoo sets up on a Mienfoo making the "optimal" play. Once again, the game is over by turn 2. There were some sub optimal plays like going vullaby instead of foongus Turn 3, but it wouldn't have changed the outcome, Mienfoo just passes to Vullaby and its game over.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7lc-822731501
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7lc-813244019
Lead Timburr vs Lead Mienfoo. Doesn't know its Z Me First at team preview, makes a reasonable play trying to Knock Off the Mienfoo, and its over by turn 2. Noticing a trend?

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7lc-822730199
Similar to the second replay, Mienfoo punishes the usual optimal play and a Shell Smashed Mudbray is too much to handle for anyone.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7lc-822459000
Slightly different replay than the previous ones. Mienfoo doesn't really have a good lead opportunity but bides its time to come in later and set up on a pawniard.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7lc-813238671
Mienfoo bides its time, sets up on a Pokemon trying to knock off Mienfoo, and ices the game.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7lc-400496
An LC Snake game, a more tempered outcome: Mienfoo is only able to pass one of the boosts, not that a +2 Atk Vullaby is anything to scoff at.

Teambuilding:

Building a team that uses this set is fairly easy, all you need is Mienfoo+Overcoat Vullaby+Fairy resist BP Recipient and 3 fillers to structure the team. There is no way to figure out a Mienfoo is Z me first at preview because well, every team has a Mienfoo, Vullaby, and a fairy resist.
Here are a few samples to try out, although the set's effectiveness is best when its concealed and undetectable at team preview. Building your own team really isn't that hard, the structure is already done for you. Build your own teams for optimal effectiveness.
https://pokepast.es/567e043ebbbc0402
https://pokepast.es/1f23d159c0f6afc2
https://pokepast.es/9035deaf551ef5be
 
In response the Serenes post
Couldn’t you just run haze/clear smog
This would do chip damage to whatever comes in, and removes the stat boosts passed
We also have two very good mienfoo counters with access to this move, foongus and mareanie
So I don’t really know how this set is so broken.

Edit: I secretly hope that mienfoo gets banned anyway, just cause I’m sick of looking at it in every match
 
In response the Serenes post
Couldn’t you just run haze/clear smog
This would do chip damage to whatever comes in, and removes the stat boosts passed
We also have two very good mienfoo counters with access to this move, foongus and mareanie
So I don’t really know how this set is so broken.

Edit: I secretly hope that mienfoo gets banned anyway, just cause I’m sick of looking at it in every match
You could run Clear Smog on Foongus, but that would leave you at a massive disadvantage in regular games since Synthesis has become mandatory, meaning Clear Smog > Sludge Bomb means you lose every Foongus war (which has been the definition of LC for a while now) or Giga Drain which I guess is an option but you would probably want an actual coverage move if doing so. As for Mareanie Haze isn't that difficult to slap on, but in general Knock Off, Toxic Spikes and Iron Defense are just better options for regular matchups. This set works mainly because it's not the standard, and hence unexpected and unprepared for, although will probably still be good now that people are aware.
 
It's effectiveness could also be due to Mienfoo being the safest lead in the tier and so taking advantage of people that lead it, cuz I don't really see how this can setup vs a Vullaby lead
 

Ereshkigal

MERCI LES MAGICIENS
is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
It's effectiveness could also be due to Mienfoo being the safest lead in the tier and so taking advantage of people that lead it, cuz I don't really see how this can setup vs a Vullaby lead
You sd like a man as vulla will knock off most of the time to remove the eviolite of ur flying check. If you guess right gg if not rip but i think u can still setup this is just a play high risk high reward
 
Ok so I tested it and it seems that Z-Me First foo is perfectly able to setup on Vull. He will just Z-Me First into BB or Knock, if it's BB Vull bops, if it's Knock, Foo still outspeeds and HJKs
 

sister

Banned deucer.
Just encountered this team on the ladder: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7lc-835598600

Don't wanna make it sound like I'm salty for losing or anything- I don't care much about that in that regard- but I want to bring attention to Z-Flash, which boosts evasion by 1 stage while also dropping accuracy by one stage.. This when combined with baton pass and substitute chains can lead to some hair-pulling matches. Considering a big part of the Wingull suspect is how it forces a lot of luck-based matches, I don't see why we should keep this strategy alive. Especially when it blatantly breaks one of the core Smogon clauses: No Evasion Moves.

I don't think the strategy is broken or whatever, it's probably easily beaten and at best inconsistent, and I've only seen it in this one match. But I really don't think its healthy to have this strategy floating around in the ladder. It's a surefire way to get players to ditch the tier and dealing with a level of luck to this caliber does not make for a compelling match.

Dunno if this was even the right place to post this but eh. Imo this strat should be quickbanned before it becomes a problem.
 

sister

Banned deucer.
Attention all, it’s me your favourite Australian screwup and I have to bring something forward (If you don’t like memes, just ignore this)

Onix can actually hit things, (OMG REALLY YOU DONT SAY) but for all serious purposes the amount of times I’ve just seen someone sack onix after getting rocks up, WHY DO PEOPLE DO THIS I literally wanna game by spamming earthquake and yet I see onix’s just dying everywhere, so I propose that we talk about Onix rights, for too long have rock snakes been a means to an end, it’s time they got the respect they deserved, all support is appreciated.

Let’s start a movement people

Ludi the wierdo...

... out
#ONIXRIGHTS
 

sister

Banned deucer.
thanksgullving.png

Instead of working on the several final essays I have due within the next few weeks or spending time with my family for the holiday I'm gonna write a big post about Wingull's ban; the winners, losers, consequences and rewards.

Mienfoo is among the biggest winners in this ban. With one of it's biggest threats gone means the safest pick in the meta is now an even safer. I don't think we'll see too much of an increase in it's usage stats- because everyone was still using Mienfoo anyway. Basically, spamming it's moves will be a lot easier. Will it become too over-centralizing? I don't think so. It still has to contend with a lot of it's old shit. Shit that, now that Wingull is gone, will come back into the fold. Stuff like Foongus who, like Mienfoo, has one less threat to deal with. Muksu's pic is really telling- cause Foongus wars are going to be a lot more common now that one of it's biggest force-outs is gone.

I think the offensive power gap will mean Gastly will become even more prominent. LO Gastly has one less 19 speeder to be out sped by, making it all the more threatening. I mean, Gastly was still always a powerful threat, but no more Wingull makes it even more valuable. And with Gastly comes its teammates, Abra, and it's counters- Grimer A.

The lose of Wingull also means the lose of a defogger. This'll make Vullaby's role much more valuable, since the number of Defoggers is quite outweighed by the number of rockers. On that note, Onix is now a much more consistent 'bird-check,' as is Pawniard. I don't think Tirtouga will go anywhere, though. It has great defensive potential, and doesn't afraid of Diglett. The need for a bulky water is still needed when things like Clamperl and Shellder are around.

Sticky Web is also worth looking at now that one of it's biggest annoyances is gone. I won't say I think the strategy will be 'good' now, but Wingull's ban puts a lot of pressure off of it. And with the combined effect of Gastly and Abra staying the premier offensive core, it may be very much worth looking into.

Magnemite is an odd case. You'd think it would drop out considerably given it's job of dealing with Wingull is cut- but there are still good reasons to keep him around. Steel is an underrated STAB type in this meta. Things that do resist it aren't keen on taking a STAB Electric move, and it's typing makes it good for applying pressure to Abra. Trapping Ferroseed is still a good trait, too. The disappearance of Wingull probably means the disappearance of Chinchou, too. I think Chou get's a lot of hate actually, it's just weak and having to deal with Diglett and Foongus is just really shitty. But now that Wingull is gone, Chinchou has a hard time keeping up. Chinchou's presence is absolutely devastating to Magnemite, preventing it from really spamming powerful Flash Cannons and Thunderbolts that 2KO quite a bit of the meta. If Chinchou falls off as much as I imagine it would, Magnemite is definitely going to have an easier time. You could argue that Wingull was a great bait to Magnemite, too, forcing the user into uncomfortable 50/50s.

Overall, while this ban is big in a lot of ways, it's not incredibly meta-defining, imo. Wingull was good but a fact often brought up in arguments against the ban was it's relatively low usage stats, both on ladder and in recent tournaments. What will change considerably is how each match plays out in terms of managing your defensive cores. One less powerful Z-move user to consider gives a lot of credence to bulky cores looking to absorb as much damage as possible. The ban, imo, will shift the focus of the meta towards more variety in it's offensive cores. I guess, my only issue with Wingull was there were not many reasons to NOT use it. 19 speed, amazing STAB combo, immune to Diglett, lots of support options. I think, then, that the biggest impact the ban will be behind-the-scenes. Without having to consider it when teambuilding could lead to some interesting offensive builds that achieve what Wingull could with different mons or sets. I'm looking forward to seeing it. On the flipside, my fear is that Foo and Foongus will become too overbearing. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
 

Altariel von Sweep

Yoooo Mista!
is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributor
Hey, what's good folks? Wingull's departure has caused a lot of notable changes consequences and I feel like rearranging my thoughts now that the suspect is over. Metagame is going to shape into one where Foongus wars will be even prominent than before and Onix will improve its state as the best Flying-type check along with Pawniard, putting some obvious examples. To make this brief, I feel like doing another meme, pointing out the changes some Pokémon have suffered. This said, let's go:

POST WINGULL.jpg
 

tcr

sage of six tabs
is a Tutor Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Today's Discussion: Abra, Gastly, and Trapping

So I'm sure it's to no one's surprise that the biggest threats for the past cycle of the tier since Wingull's ban have been the combination of Abra and Gastly. I would in particular, like to focus on this match between Osh and Fran17, what is in my opinion a garbage match. In it Fran basically just autolost to the immense pressure that Abra / Gastly puts out, with almost zero answers to it. One could attempt to explain this away with poor teambuilding, but are we really at the point where SpD Vullaby, FerroSpritz, def Foo is considered bad teambuilding? The problem is the huge amount of coverage moves that these Pokemon (Abra and Gastly) get. It is next to impossible to determine when and what is a safe switchin for these Pokemon, as you constantly have to scout for random moves like Energy Ball, Hidden Power Fire, Thunderbolt, etc.

Prior to Wingull's banning, you at least had a 19 Speed mon that distorted the metagame to make Gastly and Abra a little subdued, one outsped and ohkoed and the other tied to make it a 50/50. After Wingull's ban though came the freed rise of GasAbra, which puts an absolute enormous amount of pressure on teambuilding to require a unique subset of mons to deal with it, and coincidentally all of those mons are trapped by one's very own Trapinch or Diglett (where have we heard this before?) Traditionally, the counters to Abra / Gastly would be scarfers that can pivot, such as Magnemite or Vullaby, Pursuit trappers such as Grimer-A or Scarf Pawniard, or some form of priority. Most of these answers simply cannot exist in this metagame due to the huge rise in Trapinch, an otherwise obscure Pokemon that has seen the meta adapt in a way that it can rise all the way to A in the Viability Rankings. Trapinch in itself traps opposing Diglett, really helping out with Abra's case, as well as basically forcing Grimer-A to be non-existent, a feat to which I attribute to the absurdity of Arena Trap. A metagame where Grimer-A, whos sole niche is as a pursuit trapper that destroys both Gastly and Abra, has a 20% winrate out of 5 games total used thus far in Week 5 of LCWC (1 game out of 5 have been won with a Grimer-A). That to me screams that something is wrong, when the premier SpD trapper has been almost booted out of the metagame in an ideal state where it should be demolishing the "broken" core.

I would like some discussion on these Pokemon, their state in the metagame, other people's thoughts, ideas on how to handle the core, because right now I see the metagame shifting towards Abra / Gastly / Trapinch on a lot of teams. Maybe that is to do with its ability to handle common cores like Onix / Vullaby / Foongus / Mienfoo that the french and ladder heros like to run, maybe its just because Trapinch is the new hot thing right now, or maybe its because this is but a further symptom of the cancer that is Arena Trap. I think a full month of zero discussion in our metagame discussion thread has been more than enough, and with LCWC starting to wind down for most teams surely people can take the time out of their day to post their thoughts, unique ways they are attempting to handle this teambuilding burden, etc.
 

sister

Banned deucer.
One of my favorite matches from LCWC: dcae vs. levi in Week 3: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7lc-836548676
I think this match shows a lot of how the meta will be evolving with the Abra/Gastly/Trapper being so omnipresent.

You basically have to do everything you can to prevent either Abra or Gastly from getting a free turn, which is apparent on Turn 5 where dcae catches Gastly on the switch with a Psychic from Abra, putting it in a very poor position. It's a metagame where you have to play very loose, there were two instances where dcae sacrificed his Pokemon from full HP, but this was all done to put his scarfers in better positions. The best way to beat the core is to just be faster than it, honestly. This is kind of the best way to beat Dig, too.

Compare that to this match: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7lc-832783226, where LilyAC's Abra get's a free turn to get a sub up and the match is basically over.

Any slouch in momentum opens the Abra/Gastly powerhouse to absolutely wreck, since a lot of their counters (A-Grime, Munchlax) just aren't super viable right now. Ultimately, I think this meta is one that is going to reward overwhelmingly fast teams with a lot of trapping and a lot of priority. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing, I'm curious to see how the metagame looks in a few weeks. Or maybe I'm wrong, I dunno.

Also I think Meowth is underrated right now tbh. Fake Out/Feint/Knock Off/Aerial Ace can dismantle Sashbra/LO Gastly, and it's pretty difficult to switch in to. Except for Onix. And BJ Vullaby. And Ferroseed. And Spritzee.
 

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