Project Metagame Workshop (OM Submissions CLOSED)

[stealthstone]

I misunderstood. I vaguely remember someone earlier in this thread suggesting an Acid Rain meta, and this reminded me of that. Although, metas whose central gimmick is randomness are usually rejected.

Do you have anything to say about my submission, Maxgen?

i think the idea is really cool. I think the meta would definitely be more unique, as it means that some pokemon that are powerful but with a bad movepool will be pretty strong. however, i worry that it could lead to pokemon from earlier generations dominating the metagame, as the bulk of moves were introduced in gen 1 in particular. I haven't really looked into which moves were introduced in which gens, however, so i'd have to do that before i could give an informed opinion

 

[Nitro Indigo]

U-Turn (4) and Volt Switch (5) are also moves that I imagine would be used a lot. I'm also expecting Regieleki with actual coverage to be terrifying.

 

[stealthstone]

U-Turn (4) and Volt Switch (5) are also moves that I imagine would be used a lot. I'm also expecting Regieleki with actual coverage to be terrifying.

i've never played gen 8 so i dont really know much about it

 

[Nitro Indigo]

Allow me to explain, then. Regieleki and Spectrier are two Pokémon introduced in the Expansion Pass that have shallow movepools, but ended up in OU because they were so good at what they could do. I play OMs more than game-accurate tiers, but I do know that Spectrier was banned to Ubers recently. Meanwhile, one of Regieleki's OU sample sets has Swift so it isn't completely walled by Ground-types. If it had actual coverage, who knows how threatening it could be. (I think it's banned from Inheritance?)

Also, I think Maxgen would benefit a lot of Gen 5 Pokémon with shallow movepools; the only legal ones that come to mind are Lilligant and Klinklang.

EDIT: I've made two more sample sets for Maxgen specifically to test if certain things are broken.

Sets

Regieleki @ Choice Band
Ability: Transistor
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bolt Beak
- Extreme Speed
- Glacial Lance
- Volt Switch


Espeon @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Mean Look
- Dream Eater
- Spore
- Dazzling Gleam

I've already brought up Spore and Regieleki as being potentially problematic, but Bolt Beak probably is as well because it's banned from several metas.

If anyone wants to help me test this out, you can challenge me on Showdown with /challenge Nitro Indigo gen8ou @@@ -obtainable moves, or vice versa. I'll trust you to only give your Maxgen teams eligible moves.

EDIT2: I asked someone to create their own Maxgen team and challenged them to a custom game using it. They accidentally used a Pokémon that wasn't legal in Gen 8, and I was demolished by Extreme Speed (2), Boomburst (6), and Shift Gear.

 

[Clas]

I should note that extreme speed is a very limited move (only being viable on Ursaring [banned, which I was not aware of duing this battle] and Heracross, but Heracross does not benefit from this). Boomburst, however, is a move that should be closely monitored due to its insane power and type flexibility via the likes of Galvanize/Electrify, Refrigerate, Aerialate and Pixilate. Moves like Shift Gear, No Retreat and Quiver Dance should also be monitored closely here as well due to their insane value. Like said above too, spore and moves like Bolt Beak should be very closely monitored as well.

If anyone is interested, here are the pokémon I used (without Ursaring) to give you all a good idea of what to expect.

Sylveon

Sylveon @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Water Shuriken
- Fire Blast
- Psychic

Dragapult

Dragapult @ Throat Spray
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Astral Barrage
- Dynamax Cannon
- Fire Blast
- Clangorous Soul

Talonflame

Talonflame @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Ascent
- Flare Blitz
- Petal Blizzard
- U-turn

Thunderus-T

Thundurus-Therian @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Hurricane
- Thunderbolt
- Secret Sword

Bisharp

Bisharp @ Black Glasses
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shift Gear
- Iron Head
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch

 

[Clas]

Also, wouldn't rain and sun cancel each other out?

No since the weather cannot be overriden

 

[Nitro Indigo]

Stealthstone already answered my question about the weather. Also, what makes you think that Extreme Speed would only be viable on Guts users?

Here's the team I used in that battle. I'm not sure if Wish and Teleport would be allowed together on Blissey; while they're normally mutually exclusive, it would still get Teleport in Maxgen by virtue of evolving from a Gen 1 Pokémon, which might override it only being available from Virtual Console, if we're going by the STABmons logic that normally-illegal moves are treated as TMs.

Team

Metagross @ Life Orb
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Meteor Mash
- Zen Headbutt

Azumarill @ Leftovers
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Slack Off
- Heal Bell
- Scald
- Taunt

Magnezone @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon
- Flamethrower
- Volt Switch

Regieleki @ Choice Band
Ability: Transistor
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bolt Beak
- Extreme Speed
- Glacial Lance
- Volt Switch

Espeon @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Mean Look
- Dream Eater
- Spore
- Dazzling Gleam

Blissey (F) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Teleport
- Rapid Spin
- Night Shade

Clasmia's team was also way better than mine. My team is somewhere between "balance" and "here's an idea of what would be allowed in this format", with one gimmick member that exists just to suspect test one move.

Also, Thousand Arrows was programmed into Gen 6, but wasn't available until Gen 7. Which one should it be counted as for Maxgen?

EDIT: We had a second battle, where we decided that Bolt Beak was banworthy and Clangorous Soul could become a meta-defining threat.

EDIT: In our third battle, Clasmia pointed out that Ferrothorn would have access to Cotton Guard, allowing it to power up its Body Presses. Is this an issue in STABmons?

 

[Clas]

EDIT: We had a second battle, where we decided that Bolt Beak was banworthy and Clangorous Soul could become a meta-defining threat.

There is also No Retreat available with CSoul, but I think that has too many drawbacks to be suspected. Dragon Dance and Quiver Dance remain to be seen as too good, likewise with Fishious Rend. The latter may result in Barraskewda becoming too good, and will therefore be tested.

 

[Clas]

Stealthstone already answered my question about the weather. Also, what makes you think that Extreme Speed would only be viable on Guts users?

This was purely me looking at viable options where they had options of being able to have either 500+ atk or 450+ with stab on E-speed, and those were the only noticable ones.

 

[Clas]

EDIT: In our third battle, Clasmia pointed out that Ferrothorn would have access to Cotton Guard, allowing it to power up its Body Presses. Is this an issue in STABmons?

In STABmons, no, because ferrothorn is used as an anchor shot trapping drainer and not a wallbreaker

 

[Nitro Indigo]

Two more replays!

In the first one, I was swept by Ferrothorn with Cotton Guard + Body Press, and Clasmia decided Fishious Rend was banworthy. In the second game, I swept with Refrigerate Boomburst and Scrappy Extreme Speed. I think Boomburst is banworthy; both Sylveon and Aurorus tear through Pokémon that aren't weak to it.

(Note: in the second game, Clasmia uses dynamax. I'm going to assume this was by accident; I told them not to use it when we started test matches yesterday, and I couldn't figure out how to ban dynamax from a custom game.)

I'd particularly like to highlight my Politoed set:

Politoed @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Haze / Rapid Spin
- Heal Bell
- Scald
- Recover
I knew ahead of time that Clasmia would be using a rain team and decided to use a Water-immune Pokémon to counter it. It turns out that it was able to survive a STAB Discharge from Zapdos with max special defence investment (58% at full health). Having access to a reliable recovery move certainly helped.

 

[urkerab]

I couldn't figure out how to ban dynamax from a custom game.

Probably /challenge Clasmia, gen8customgame@@@dynamaxclause, but I haven't tested it.

 

[Nitro Indigo]

Here's the other sets I used in those battles:

I removed Klinklang because my team was extremely weak to Fighting

Hydreigon @ White Herb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shell Smash
- Night Daze
- Draco Meteor
- Flamethrower

Miltank (F) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Belly Drum
- Extreme Speed
- Ice Punch
- Earthquake

Klinklang @ Life Orb (if I remember correctly)
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shift Gear
- Gear Grind
- Wild Charge
- Drill Run

Weezing-Galar @ Black Sludge
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Court Change / Will-O-Wisp
- Clear Smog
- Toxic
- Recover

Aurorus @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Refrigerate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Ancient Power
- Psychic
- Earth Power

Dusknoir @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rock Polish
- Poltergeist
- Drain Punch
- Bulk Up

Now that I've done some analysis, it's time for a second writeup!

Maxgen​

Metagame premise: Pokémon can use every move introduced in their generation of introduction, in addition to the moves they already learn.

Cross-generational evolutions can use moves from their pre-evolution's generations as well. Regional variants are counted as the generation the variant was introduced in.

For example...

-> // Hitmonlee and Hitmonchan have access to all Gen 1 and 2 moves, but Hitmontop only has access to all Gen 2 moves.
-> -> / Regular Raichu can use all Gen 1 and 2 moves, but Alolan Raichu can use all Gen 1, 2, and 7 moves.
-> Alolan Persian has access to all Gen 7 moves, but not all Gen 1 moves, because its line consists entirely of regional variants.
-> -> In a unique case, both Roselia and Roserade have access to all Gen 3 and 4 moves.
-> -> Porygon2 has access to all Gen 1 and 2 moves, while Porygon-Z has access to all Gen 1, 2, and 4 moves.

Potential bans and threats:
Powerful stat-boosting moves, like Shift Gear and Shell Smash, are already restricted in other metas (eg: STABmons and Inheritance) because they allow for any Pokémon to become a sweeper.
When boosted by an -ate ability, Boomburst can tear through entire teams.
Gen 8 introduced a lot of fast Pokémon that could abuse Bolt Beak and Fishious Rend, which are also restricted in the metas I mentioned.
Ferrothorn can boost its already-high defence with Cotton Guard, making its Body Presses even more powerful.
Galarian Moltres can boost its special attack by three stages through a combination of Clangorous Soul, Throat Spray, and Berserk.

Questions for the community: Should Thousand Waves/Arrows be counted as Gen 6 or 7 moves?

EDIT: Another replay! I'd like to highlight one of my opponent's Pokémon.


Celesteela @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Baneful Bunker
- Leech Seed
- Spectral Thief
- Nature's Madness

It turns out that Celesteela is an excellent stall Pokémon. My Hydreigon's Shell Smash being undone by Spectral Thief was a nasty surprise, and direct-damage moves like Nature's Madness (which I'd almost forgot existed) are always good on defensive Pokémon. This is the most creative set I've seen for Maxgen so far.

 

[Clas]

When boosted by an -ate ability, Boomburst can tear through entire teams.

I think Boomburst is fine as it allows previously almost useless pokemon to shine, which we haven't seen before. Since all strong -ate users are either not in generation 8, there isnt a major problem with it.

Galarian Moltres can boost its special attack by three stages through a combination of Clangorous Soul, Throat Spray, and Berserk.

G-Moltres should be fine for now, since it has to be below 50% hp for it, and is killable by most META pokemon, namely those with Extreme Speed or high speed stats or even just Swift Swim/Unburden/Triage etc.

EDIT: Another replay! I'd like to highlight one of my opponent's Pokémon.


Celesteela @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Baneful Bunker
- Leech Seed
- Spectral Thief
- Nature's Madness

This also gets access to Thousand Arrows...
This thing will be terrifying.

 

[Clas]

(Note: in the second game, Clasmia uses dynamax. I'm going to assume this was by accident; I told them not to use it when we started test matches yesterday, and I couldn't figure out how to ban dynamax from a custom game.)

This was, and actually cost me the game too, funny enough.

 

[Nitro Indigo]

Since all strong -ate users are either not in generation 8, there

The other -ate users wouldn't be able to use Boomburst anyway because they're all either megas of Gen 3 Pokémon, or regional variants from Gen 7. If I were making Maxgen in Gen 6 or 7, I wouldn't give Pokémon with mega evolutions all the Gen 6 moves because the mechanic doesn't give any Pokémon new moves in canon.

 

[Clas]

Something that was recently brought to my attention was Geomancy, particularly with Pokémon like Sylveon and Aurorus, or even just other good Special Attacking generation 6 Pokémon. This should probably be banned.

 

[Nitro Indigo]

I mentioned that Geomancy was ban-worthy in my original post about Maxgen, but I suppose it was easy to miss because it was in a long paragraph.

Do you think Maxgen is ready for submission, anyone, or should I make some touch-ups first? Someone told me that the name is unintuitive; does Maxgen Moves sound better?

 

[Clas]

The other -ate users wouldn't be able to use Boomburst anyway because they're all either megas of Gen 3 Pokémon, or regional variants from Gen 7. If I were making Maxgen in Gen 6 or 7, I wouldn't give Pokémon with mega evolutions all the Gen 6 moves because the mechanic doesn't give any Pokémon new moves in canon.

Forgot about that part, haha.

 

[Clas]

I mentioned that Geomancy was ban-worthy in my original post about Maxgen, but I suppose it was easy to miss because it was in a long paragraph.

Do you think Maxgen is ready for submission, anyone, or should I make some touch-ups first? Someone told me that the name is unintuitive; does Maxgen Moves sound better?

Could be ready, but I think more testing is good.

 

[Nitro Indigo]

It also deals with offensive Ice Types such as Weavile. Flare Blitz is a necessary STAB Move, in which Close Combat can be an alternative, but you can generally heal the Recoil off. Meteor Mash allows Blaziken to boost it’s Attack, while having the advantage over Rock Types.

Both of those types are already weak to Fighting, though. I'm not sure what to think of these sets - they seem gimmicky - so are either of you able to have a test match today?

 

[Kingofthesun]

Echo Effect​

Metagame Premise: The last two moves of the pokemon who was in last become the last two moves of the pokemon currently in for the first turn they're in.
So for example:

Toxapex @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Toxic Spikes
- Haze
- Recover

Celesteela @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Heavy Slam
- Protect
- Leech Seed
- Flamethrower

If Toxapex is in on turn 1, it has all 4 moves, Scald, Toxic spikes, Haze, and Recover. If Toxapex switches into Celesteela, the next turn, Celesteela will have the move set Heavy Slam, Protect, Haze, and Recover. Doubling back into Toxapex will result in Toxapex's move set being Scald, Toxic Spikes, Leech Seed and Flamethrower. If Celesteela opts instead to say in, it's move set will revert back to Heavy Slam, Protect, Leech Seed, and Flamethrower.

Clauses:
Standard OU clauses

Bans:
Regigigas (skill swap shenanigans that I don't want warping the game to require protect on every mon)

Notable Buffs:
Items:
- Eject Pack has a not-so-well-known funny strat where you shell smash with say, a Torkoal, then Eject Pack into your Lucario and use Copycat to shell smash. This strat now works with any pokemon and with any stat-lowering move, though Shell Smash is the most notable, and you don't have to be faster than your opponent to make the strat work.
Moves:
- Pivoting moves (U-turn, Volt Switch, Parting Shot, Flip Turn) are exceptionally dangerous because they can be used by both the initial pokemon who knows the move, and the switch-in. However, doubling back into the initial U-turner will prevent them from U-turning again because they will have echoed the last two moves of the pokemon before it unless they can stall for a turn with protect/fake out.

- Recovery moves(I'm not listing them all, you know what they are) will be phenomenal for pokemon without them, especially if paired with a pokemon that lures in what they could potentially recover on.

Pokemon:

- Aegislash now can get a form of reliable recovery, or an offensive coverage move and utilize both to great effectiveness.

- Regieleki/Regidrago no longer have to use one type of move that is invalidated by a common type.

Potential Bans/Threats:
Items:
- Choice items (Choice Band, Choice Specs, Choice Scarf), if they work the way I think they do, will allow for one move to be used, then switch to another on the next turn, essentially bypassing the limitation of Choice items

Abilities:
- Regenerator will benefit hugely from this meta's switching premise, allowing for more passive recovery opportunities with even greater rewards. My concern is that it will be too rewarding to the point where Regenerator will be mandatory. Definitely on the radar

Moves:
- Powerful set-up moves, specifically, Quiver Dance, Belly Drum, and Shell Smash for the same obvious reasons they're suspected/banned in many other move set-based OMs.

- I don't think that Dracozolt/Arctozolt are a problem, I think that Bolt Beak Tapu Koko, Regieleki, and Zeraora are even if only for 1 turn.

Pokemon:

- Melmetal's Double-Iron Bash is a broken-ass move, Imagine pairing this with Scarf Jirachi then, because your move set changed, you get to pick a different move. On top of that, Melmetal itself can utilize choiced attacks, think Close Combat, Pyro Ball, the double U-turn strat mentioned earlier.

- Kartana's gargantuan attack stat is no longer held back by moves with less than 100 base power, Earthquake, Wood Hammer, Flare Blitz, Brave Bird, etc. It can also echo U-turn to make it that much harder to deal with. On top of this, Kartana can run Choice Band/Scarf and then switch its move on the following turn.

- Toxtricity is a strong enough mon on its own with its move set almost always containing Boomburst and Overdrive, but nothing to egregious. The problem is it's a strong special attacker that can pass both a pivot move in volt switch and one of the best set-up moves in shift gear in just two slots allowing for a plethora of pokemon to gain a ton of momentum or just win the game by setting up on the specially defensive pokemon volt switched out on.

Q&A:
Q: how does PP work?
A: Identical to Imposter. The echoed moves will gain 5 temporary PP, at full PP, which will then will be replaced with the original move set the following turn. when switched in again, the echoed moves will again, have 5 PP at full PP.

Q: What is the move set of the first pokemon out?
A: Their default move set. There isn't a move set that has been echoed, so there is no reason for them to have another pokemon's move set.

Questions for the Community:
Of the potential bans/threats listed, which ones do you think should be banned outright?

Do choice Items work the way I think they do? allowing for, if an echoed move is chosen, to switch to another move the following turn?

To unban Regigigas, should there be a "Echo Clause" where moves cannot be put in the third or forth slot preventing them from being echoed (specifically Skill Swap, but perhaps other powerful moves like Shell Smash, Belly Drum, or Quiver Dance)

Edit: removed slaking from post (I could've swore he was in the game)

 

[Nitro Indigo]

Slaking

Slaking isn't in Gen 8. Also, speaking from experience, just saying "OU banlist/clauses" in your OM's rules is discouraged nowadays.

 

[Nitro Indigo]

- Showed to be too bulky for the meta

Please can you explain why? Its defences would be 25/76/71, and everything else's offences would be scaled down as well.

 

[A Golden Waddle Dee]

Please can you explain why? Its defences would be 25/76/71, and everything else's offences would be scaled down as well.

Yeah, I wasn’t thinking when I made that ban, since I just anticipated it’d be broken (I am not a ban Toxapex from OU fan btw). After testing it out, it’s unbanned now.