Metagame Workshop

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

Full Effect: Final Revision

(Ignore everything about Full Effect prior to this post. I worked out all the quirks, as now I made it as unbiased as it could be. Previously, there was a lot of debate on how to handle some effects. Here, I made it technically a code based factor to decide what is affected or not. See in Technical Premise. Also, check the pastebins for what changes.)


Premise: All items, moves, and abilities have their best effect immediately and always activated, bar Type based conditions.

The idea for this meta is that mechanics with conditions that rely on certain parameters to be met can now be used without any set up needed. To be more technical, this meta automatically activates any single condition that would naturally work for the mechanic's favor. Here are some examples to get a full idea for the meta:

>Electric Seed: Normally, the seed items are consumed when the Pokemon holding it enters the corresponding terrain. Now, the terrain is no longer needed for the item to be consumed, and the item is used immediately.
(It should be noted that if the user's defense is at +6, this item is used and fails. Or, if bars like Embargo or Magic Room are present, then the item won't be used until these conditions are gone. The only condition that this meta satisfies are is the single, advantageous condition that is intrinsic to the item or mechanic itself, and nothing external like Embargo’s effect).

>Acrobatics: Will always be the full 110 bp, even if the user holds an item.

>Earthquake: If you are unaware, Earthquake doubles power on Pokemon that are underground because of Dig. This meta removes that underground condition, and makes EQ always 200 bp. This move, among others, will probably need to be banned.

>Blaze: Will always be active, regardless of remaining HP.

>Aloraichium Z: No longer needed to be held by just Alolan Raichu, so any Pokemon with Thunderbolt can use this Z move!

So this is the idea of the metagame, as some strategies are immediately viable now. However, not everything is affected, and many effects need to be banned.

Technical Premise:

Every item, ability, and move that has an "if" statement to qualify a positive effect will have the last condition in that statement removed, except for any Type based conditions. Any other conditions that may activate a negative or less advantageous effect are removed; again, bar Type based conditions. This will only be ignored if the if statement being avoided is not advantageous or if it is game breaking.

For example, the if statement for Iron Barbs is “if (source && source !== target && move && move.flags['contact']). Essentially, Iron Barbs checks if the user is targeted, hit by a move, and if that the move is a contact based move. This meta drops that last condition, and now any targeting move, contact or not, will activate it.
Full effect does not change the mechanic’s turn check. For example, Iron barbs activates “onDamageTaken.” Here it still only activates onDamageTaken. An ability like Blaze however is an “onUpdate” abilitiy, and it’s if statement is:
(move.type === 'Fire' && attacker.hp <= attacker.maxhp / 3).
The HP check is dropped in Full Effect, so now Blaze will always be active for Fire typed attacks.

One exception to the Full Effect meta is the ignorance of type based conditions, like Water Absorb. Water Absorb’s if statement is: if (target !== source && move.type === 'Water'). Because this is a type based condition, it is not changed by Full Effect.

Another integral rule to Full Effect is that it only activates conditions that are for the benefit for the mechanic, and will ignore the negative conditions. This rule is overridden by the Type based rule, and it should be noted that any negative effects that come along with the positive will still be active as well. Take the ability Dry Skin and it’s onWeather statements:
If (effect.id === 'raindance' || effect.id === 'primordialsea') {
this.heal(target.maxhp / 8);
} else if (effect.id === 'sunnyday' || effect.id === 'desolateland') {this.damage(target.maxhp / 8, target, target);}
This meta ignores the current weather, always grants the rain healing effect, and eliminates the sun damaging effect. Again, no matter the weather, the healing function will always be present. However, Dry Skin also has two Type based conditions: absorbs water, weak to fire. These conditions are unchanged, and work as they do normally in game.

Solar Power has a condition to check for sun, and will raise special attack but damage the user if activated:
if (this.isWeather(['sunnyday', 'desolateland']))
{ return this.chainModify(1.5); } },
onWeather: function (target, source, effect) { if (effect.id === 'sunnyday' || effect.id === 'desolateland') { this.damage(target.maxhp / 8, target, target); } },
Because the special attack boost and damage penalty are activated by the same conditions, both effects are always active in Full Effect.

Some mechanics are avoided in the Full Effect meta as to avoid game breaking glitches. For example, Moody's if statement is:
if (pokemon.boosts[statPlus] < 6) { stats.push(statPlus); }
Ignoring this statement could possibly let a stat go above +6, which is not what this meta tries to imply. Thus, it is in the game's best interest to not include Moody in the Full Effect change, as Moody is already activated normally, and furthermore it would break boundaries set in game.

Pastebins for Everything Changed:
Items: https://pastebin.com/13rLc1rj
Abilities: https://pastebin.com/pZTfPBjj
Moves: https://pastebin.com/v4exd9CC

Shortcut: New Viable Damage Dealing Moves for each Type

Bug:
-Steamroller (130 bp, -- ac, 30% chance to flinch)
-First Impression(90 bp, 100 ac, +2 priority, works every turn)
-Fell Stinger (50 bp, 100 ac, +3 attack on hit)
Dark:
-Malicious Moonsault (360 bp, -- ac, can be used by any Pokemon with Darkest Lariat and the correct Z move)
-Assurance (120 bp, 100 ac)
-Payback (100 bp, 100 ac)
-Knock Off (97.5 bp, 100 ac, knocks off item)
-Pursuit (80 bp, 100 ac, hits switching out targets)
-Sucker Punch (70 bp, 100 ac, +1 priority, never fails)
Dragon:
-Twister (80 bp, 100 ac, 20% chance to flinch)
Electric:
-10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt (195, -- ac, +2 crit ratio, used by any Pokemon with Thunderbolt and the correct Z move)
-Stoked Sparksurfer (175 bp, --ac, 100% chance to paralyze, used by any Pokemon with Thunderbolt and the correct Z move)
-Thunder (110 bp, -- ac, 30% chance to paralyze)
Fairy:
-Let's Snuggle Forever (190, -- ac, can be used by any Pokemon with Play Rough and the correct Z move)
Fighting:
-Wake Up Slap (140 bp, 100 ac, wakes up sleeping targets)
Fire:
-NA
Flying:
-Hurricane (110 bp, -- ac, 30% chance to confuse)
-Acrobatics (110 bp, 100 ac)
-Beak Blast (100 bp, 100 ac, burns enemies that target it before the user attacks)
-Gust (80 bp, 100 ac)
Ghost
-Hex (130 bp, 100 ac)
Grass
-Solar Blade (125 bp, 100 ac, one turn attack)
-Solar Beam (120 bp, 100 ac, one turn attack)
Ground
-Stomping Tantrum (150 bp, 100 ac)
Ice
-Blizzard (100 bp, -- ac, 10% chance to freeze)
-Avalanche (120 bp, 100 ac, -4 priority)
Normal
-Pulverizing Pancake (210 bp, -- ac, used by any Pokemon with Giga Impact and the correct Z move)
-Last Resort (140 bp, 100 ac, works even with other moves not selected)
-Facade (140 bp, 100 ac)
-Retaliate (140 bp, 100 ac)
-Smelling Salts (140 bp, 100 ac, cures paralysis)
-Round (120 bp, 100 ac)
-Snore (50 bp, 100 ac, 30% chance to flinch, does not need to be asleep)
Posion
-Venoshock (130 bp, 100 ac)
-Belch (120 bp, 90 ac, no berry needs to be consumed)
Psychic
-Genesis Supernova (185 bp, -- ac, summons Psychic Terrain for 5 turns, used by any Pokemon with Psychic and the correct Z move)
-Synchronoise (120 bp, 100 ac, can be any type)*
-Dream Eater (100 bp, 100 ac, 50% health recovered, target does not need to be asleep)
Rock
-Splinterd Stoneshards (190 bp, -- ac, can be used by any Pokemon with Stone Edge and the correct Z move)
Steel
-NA
Water
-Brine (130 bp, 100 ac)

Sample Sets:

Jolteon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Quick Feet
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder
- Volt Switch
- Synchronoise
- Round

Quick Feet is always active, giving Jolteon a +1 even when healthy. Synchronoise now works on every Pokemon, not just targets with the same type. Lastly, Round's double power effect is also always triggered. Sychnronoise and Round gives Jolteon two nicely powered coverage attacks to take advantage of, and Thunder is perfectly accurate!

Gengar @ Life Orb
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Venoshock
- Hex
- Thunder
- Focus Blast / Dream Eater / Nightmare

A true monster of a set, Gengar has two 130 bp, 100% accurate STABs in Hex and Venoshock. Furthermore, Thunder is perfectly accurate, because it takes the condition as if it was in rain. Lastly, Nightmare and Dream Eater affect even non-Sleeping targets, but the unaffected Focus Blast may still be better for coverage. Still, such a beast.


Sharpedo-Mega @ Sharpedonite
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Liquidation
- Assurance
- Facade
- Protect

Strong Jaw's x1.5 damage multiplier affects all attacks, not just bite-based ones. This makes Sharpedo's 120 bp STAB assurance even stronger, and its also worth noting that on neutral hitting targets, Facade's 140 bp is stronger than Liquidation after STAB. With a Speed Boost secured from protect, this thing is a killer.

Thundurus (M) @ Salac Berry
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Superpower
- Wild Charge
- Knock Off
- Facade

The last check for Defiant is if the lowered stat is targeted by another Pokemon. In Full Effect, this condition is dropped, and Defiant can get the Attack boost from self drops as well. This means Super Power would essentially be a +3 Attack raise rather than a -1 attack drop. Combined with a decent Wild Charge STAB, a 97.5 bp Knock Off, and a 140 bp Facade, and you got a real monster.

Guzzlord @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Careful Nature
IVs: 17 Atk
- Swallow
- Dragon Tail
- Knock Off
- Stomping Tantrum

Swallow restores 100% of the user's HP, making some mons that didn't have reliable recovery before now have one of the best recovery options. The IVs are meant so that on hit, Beast Boost raises Special Defense, making Guzzlord a great special wall after it fires off an attack. Without the negative IVS, Guzz could simply be a bulky but very strong boosting attacker.

Bans and Clauses:
OU clauses and banlists, with the following bans (NOTE: if the Pokemon’s only abilities are banned, it is implied by extension that the Pokemon would be banned too):

Items: Focus Sash, Safety Goggles, Weakness Policy

Pokemon Specific Items (ban only affects Pokemon that are NOT normally affected by the item): Eviolite, Eevium Z, Deep Sea Scale, Deep Sea Tooth, Light Ball, Metal Powder, Quick Powder, Thick Club.

Abilities: Anger Point, Bulletproof, Chlorophyl, Dazzling, Disguise, Magic Bounce, Magic Guard, Multiscale, Poison Heal, Queenly Majesty, Sand Rush, Sturdy, Swift Swim, Unburden, Wonder Guard, Overcoat, Slush Rush, Soundproof, Surge Surfer, Damp, Sand Veil, Snow Cloak, Tinted Lens, Tangled Feet.

Moves: Attract, Body Slam, Crafty Shield, Dragon Rush, Earthquake, Fake Out, Flying Press, Fusion Bolt, Fusion Flare, Heat Crash, Heavy Slam, Magic Coat, Magnitude, Sleep Talk, Spit Up, Surf.

Sample Teams:

Lead Mew HO
https://pokepast.es/a1794f67fffae030
(Mew sets up rocks and veil without needing hail, then has many abusers that can set up and sweep)

Rain Balance
https://pokepast.es/78ebb281c0f7c391
(Rain provides a great Brine buff, and helps build a decent offensive and defensive core)

Rocky Helmet Spam
https://pokepast.es/8903e5336eb88c48
(Rocky Helmet and other contact effects are now affected by every attack. This team utilizes this effect so that the threat of passive damage wears down the opponent)

SWALOT NIGHTMARE Stall
https://pokepast.es/be7356fee9f0da64
(Nightmare works even on non sleeping targets, making it a dangerous status effect. Swalot specifically has Infestation and Nightmare, along with Swallow to recover 100% of its max HP. Past this effect, its just hyper stall)

 

[HeatEdgeSword]

Priorimons
Metagame Premise: The Attacking move of a pokemon in the first slot gains +1 priority, but loses 1/3 of its BP

Possible Bans and Threats: I don't see any yet

Questions For the Community: What should the ban list be? Anything looking like it can be unbanned?

I already did that before as Prioritize, but with a different ruling on how moves gain priority by being equal to the required power or lower.

Sun and Moon Triples
Metagame Premise: Basically the USUM version of triples, since it's not in cartridge anymore

Heres an article about it: https://www.smogon.com/smog/issue20/intro_triple

Possible Bans and Threats: DOU Banlist for now

lyd also did that here before.

 

[Akumeoy]

Full Effect: Final Revision

I was iffy on this, but now that the premise has been formalized and fully fleshed out, I can confidently say that I am hype. Perhaps reconsider the Slush Rush and Surge Surfer bans, since nothing particularly good gets those abilities (Alolachu could be good with Genesis Supernova but not necessarily overpowered). Beartic is outsped by base-83 scarfers and Alolan Sandslash has pretty meh coverage without EQ.

Some more sets:

Talonflame @ Expert Belt / Choice Band / Firium Z
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Acrobatics
- Flare Blitz
- U-Turn / Swords Dance
- Facade / Roost / Filler

big beak is back in town

Drifblim @ Choice Specs / Expert Belt / Adrenaline Orb / Aloraichium Z / Pikashunium Z / Mewnium Z / Aguav Berry
Ability: Flare Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest/Timid Nature
- Hex
- Substitute / Tailwind / Recycle
- Thunder / Thunderbolt / Psychic
- Round / Psychic

You get the idea. Bigass Hexes, two coverage moves, and some utility. Details don't matter.

Mr. Mime @ Mewnium Z / Adrenaline Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psychic
- Dazzling Gleam
- Focus Blast / Nasty Plot
- Hidden Power Fire / Substitute

Its Psychic is noticeably weaker than Tapu Lele's, but its Dazzling Gleam is noticeably stronger than Lele's Moonblast. And, after it sets Psychic Terrain with Genesis Supernova, Psychic just blows shit out of the water. And that's all before fuckin Nasty Plot.

252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy in Psychic Terrain: 222-262 (65.1 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Technician Mr. Mime Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy in Psychic Terrain: 276-325 (80.9 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Technician Mr. Mime Psychic vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Psychic Terrain: 351-414 (50 - 58.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Cinccino @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Facade
- Knock Off
- Wake-Up Slap
- U-Turn

Difficult to switch into. Impossible to wall. Base 115 Speed.

252 Atk Technician Choice Band Cinccino Wake-Up Slap (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Scizor-Mega: 157-185 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Technician Choice Band Cinccino Facade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 195-229 (49.4 - 58.1%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO

Conkeldurr @ Expert Belt
Ability: Guts
EVs: 104 HP / 252 Atk / 152 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Wake-Up Slap
- Mach Punch
- Knock Off
- Facade

Same premise. Stronk.

Dugtrio-Alola @ Lycanium Z
Ability: Sand Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- Stomping Tantrum
- Stone Edge
- Stealth Rock / Filler

Something that can threaten the tapus and use Splintered Stormshards to eliminate the unnaturally long-lasting terrain. Sand Force's passive 1.3x boost is helpful.

252 Atk Sand Force Dugtrio-Alola Splintered Stormshards vs. 248 HP / 104+ Def Celesteela in Sand: 181-213 (45.5 - 53.6%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

... it doesn't accomplish everything.

Garbodor @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Aftermath
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Impish Nature
- Swallow
- Spikes
- Gunk Shot
- Stomping Tantrum

Rocky Helmet + Aftermath = 41.7% max HP off after every contact move. Shame about its statline that stops it from actually walling anything. But it's still such a passive threat to physical attackers that they'll be reluctant to use any attack that doesn't hit it neutrally.

Drifblim @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Aftermath
EVs: 252 Def / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
- Swallow
- Endure
- Hex
- Filler

In comparison, Drifblim has no actual utility for the team, but Hex gives it more offensive presence and Endure causes problems for physical attackers that just want to eat the chip damage and power through it.

 

[gmfc]

Full Effect

Premise: All items, moves, and abilities are immediately and always activated, bar Type based conditions.

The idea for this meta is that mechanics that rely on certain conditions can now be used without any set up needed. To be more technical, this meta automatically activates any single condition that would naturally work for the mechanic's favor. Here are some examples to get a full idea for the meta:

>Electric Seed: Normally, the seed items are consumed when the Pokemon holding it enters the corresponding terrain. Now, the terrain is no longer needed for the item to be consumed, and the item is used immediately.
It should be noted that if the user's defense is at +6, or if other bars like Embargo are present, then the item won't be used until these conditions are gone. The only conditions being avoided are the ones intrinsic to the item or mechanic itself.

>Acrobatics: Will always be the full 110 bp, even if the user holds an item.

>Earthquake: If you are unaware, Earthquake doubles power on Pokemon that are underground because of Dig. This meta removes that underground condition, and makes EQ always 200 bp. This move, among others, will probably need to be banned.

>Blaze: Will always be active, regardless of remaining HP.

>Aloraichium Z: No longer needed to be held by just Alolan Raichu, so any Pokemon with Thunderbolt can use this Z move!

So this is the idea of the metagame, as some strategies are immediately viable now. However, not everything is affected, and many things should be banned.
Some of the mechanics that are NOT affected are:

>Type based conditions: Under this premise, it would be easy to make abilities like Volt Absorb give immunities to ALL types, not just Electric type attacks. Thus, these abilities are not affected by this change. However, an ability like Flash Fire, which gives a unique bonus once hit by a Fire attack, has its Flash Fire status activated immediately and always. However, it still only gives immunity to Fire type attacks.

>Chance based conditions: Essentially, these conditions are always active anyways. They just have a chance of working or not, and there isn't a perfect "switch" to turn on to activate the effect.

>Gradient attacks: Moves like Reversal or Gyro Ball are not inherently maxed out to their highest potential, as they have a gradient of damage increases. Because there is not a single "switch" for these effects to be activated, they simply are not affected by this meta's rules

>Multi conditional effects: Much like gradients, if there exits multiple possible outcomes, the mechanic is not affected. This can be seen with the Pledge moves and Weather Ball, as while they do have conditions that make these moves stronger with different effects, there's no one condition technically better than the other. So, they remain unaffected.

Sets:

Jolteon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Quick Feet
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Synchronoise
- Round

Quick Feet is always active, giving Jolteon a +1 even when healthy. Synchronoise now works on every Pokemon, not just targets with the same type. Lastly, Round's double power effect is also always triggered. Sychnronoise and Round gives Jolteon two nicely powered coverage attacks to take advantage of, and can be a considerable threat.

Gengar @ Life Orb
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Venoshock
- Hex
- Thunder
- Focus Blast / Dream Eater / Nightmare

A true monster of a set, Gengar has two 130 bp, 100% accurate STABs in Hex and Venoshock. Furthermore, Thunder is perfectly accurate, because it takes the condition as if it was in rain. Lastly, Nightmare and Dream Eater affect even non-Sleeping targets, but the unaffected Focus Blast may still be better for coverage. Still, such a beast.

Sharpedo-Mega @ Sharpedonite
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Liquidation
- Assurance
- Facade
- Protect

Strong Jaw's x1.5 damage multiplier affects all attacks, not just bite-based ones. This makes Sharpedo's 120 bp STAB assurance even stronger, and its also worth noting that on neutral hitting targets, Facade's 140 bp is stronger than Liquidation after STAB. With a Speed Boost secured from protect, this thing is a killer.

Aggron-Mega @ Aggronite
Ability: Heavy Metal
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Tail
- Stomping Tantrum
- Heavy Slam
- Avalanche

Mega Aggron's Filter makes it take 3/4ths damage from all attacks, not just super effective ones. This makes it an incredible wall, but with the implied HO nature of this meta, it's base 140 attack is considerable to be invested in. Stomping Tantrum is a nice 150 bp Ground attack, and Avalanche secures a good Ice coverage move. Dragon Tail is nothing special here, but with Filter's defense, it can be used for simple phasing. Heavy Slam also does double damage because of the Minimize quirk, so totally worth abusing.

Some Bans:
Items: Focus Sash, Red Card (would phaze immediately), Weakness Policy
Pokemon Specific Items (ban only affect Pokemon that are NOT normally affected by the item): Eviolite, Eevium Z, Deep Sea Scale, Deep Sea Tooth, Light Ball, Metal Powder, Quick Powder, Thick Club.
Abilities: Chlorophyl, Multiscale, Sturdy, Swift Swim, Tinted Lenses, Unburden, Slush Rush, Sand Rush, Sand Veil, Snow Veil, Surge Surfer, Wonder Guard, Wonder Skin (all moves have 50% accuracy), Magic Bounce.
Moves: Earthquake, Fake Out (works every turn), Fusion Bolt, Fusion Flare, Grudge (doesn't require user to faint), Magnitude, Surf (doubles on Dive targets, so always 180 bp), Extrasensory (160 bp, perfect accuracy), Dragon Rush (200 bp, perfect accuracy), Flying Press (200 bp, perfect accuracy), Body Slam (170 bp, perfect accuracy, 30% chance to para), Craft Shield (spammed Protect), Sleep Talk (evades phazing low priority), Spit Up, Magic Coat (bounces back attacks lol).

More Possible Bans:
Fluffy (halves all attack damage), Anger Point (+6 when surviving an attack), Prankster (+1 priority on all attacks, but Dark types are immune to it), Heavy Slam / Heat Crash / Magnitude (very powerful, but also variable power and lower distribution), Light Clay (Aurora Veil doesn't need Hail), Regenerator (activates once every turn).

Questions for Community:
-Does the premise make sense? Is it too convoluted? Is the name misleading?
-What are some cool sets you can think of? So many new moves / abilities / items are viable now!
-Any other bans or unbans you would suggest? What mons would be too good?
-Any mechanic you're on the fence to see if it would work or not?

i like this idea, how would a move like full stinger work? would it just be a super PuP?

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

I was iffy on this, but now that the premise has been formalized and fully fleshed out, I can confidently say that I am hype. Perhaps reconsider the Slush Rush and Surge Surfer bans, since nothing particularly good gets those abilities (Alolachu could be good with Genesis Supernova but not necessarily overpowered). Beartic is outsped by base-83 scarfers and Alolan Sandslash has pretty meh coverage without EQ.

Some more sets:

Talonflame @ Expert Belt / Choice Band / Firium Z
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Acrobatics
- Flare Blitz
- U-Turn / Swords Dance
- Facade / Roost / Filler

big beak is back in town

Drifblim @ Choice Specs / Expert Belt / Adrenaline Orb / Aloraichium Z / Pikashunium Z / Mewnium Z / Aguav Berry
Ability: Flare Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest/Timid Nature
- Hex
- Substitute / Tailwind / Recycle
- Thunder / Thunderbolt / Psychic
- Round / Psychic

You get the idea. Bigass Hexes, two coverage moves, and some utility. Details don't matter.

Mr. Mime @ Mewnium Z / Adrenaline Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psychic
- Dazzling Gleam
- Focus Blast / Nasty Plot
- Hidden Power Fire / Substitute

Its Psychic is noticeably weaker than Tapu Lele's, but its Dazzling Gleam is noticeably stronger than Lele's Moonblast. And, after it sets Psychic Terrain with Genesis Supernova, Psychic just blows shit out of the water. And that's all before fuckin Nasty Plot.

252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy in Psychic Terrain: 222-262 (65.1 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Technician Mr. Mime Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy in Psychic Terrain: 276-325 (80.9 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Technician Mr. Mime Psychic vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Psychic Terrain: 351-414 (50 - 58.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Cinccino @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Facade
- Knock Off
- Wake-Up Slap
- U-Turn

Difficult to switch into. Impossible to wall. Base 115 Speed.

252 Atk Technician Choice Band Cinccino Wake-Up Slap (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Scizor-Mega: 157-185 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Technician Choice Band Cinccino Facade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 195-229 (49.4 - 58.1%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO

Conkeldurr @ Expert Belt
Ability: Guts
EVs: 104 HP / 252 Atk / 152 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Wake-Up Slap
- Mach Punch
- Knock Off
- Facade

Same premise. Stronk.

Dugtrio-Alola @ Lycanium Z
Ability: Sand Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- Stomping Tantrum
- Stone Edge
- Stealth Rock / Filler

Something that can threaten the tapus and use Splintered Stormshards to eliminate the unnaturally long-lasting terrain. Sand Force's passive 1.3x boost is helpful.

252 Atk Sand Force Dugtrio-Alola Splintered Stormshards vs. 248 HP / 104+ Def Celesteela in Sand: 181-213 (45.5 - 53.6%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

... it doesn't accomplish everything.

Garbodor @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Aftermath
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Impish Nature
- Swallow
- Spikes
- Gunk Shot
- Stomping Tantrum

Rocky Helmet + Aftermath = 41.7% max HP off after every contact move. Shame about its statline that stops it from actually walling anything. But it's still such a passive threat to physical attackers that they'll be reluctant to use any attack that doesn't hit it neutrally.

Drifblim @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Aftermath
EVs: 252 Def / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
- Swallow
- Endure
- Hex
- Filler

In comparison, Drifblim has no actual utility for the team, but Hex gives it more offensive presence and Endure causes problems for physical attackers that just want to eat the chip damage and power through it.

Love the sets, I overlooked how big of a threat Cinccino would be. And I’m happy to hear the meta makes sence to you. I think the final revision clears things up a lot.

i like this idea, how would a move like full stinger work? would it just be a super PuP?

Check the pastebin in my newer Full Effect post to see what Fell Stinger and other moves do now. Or, check yourself using my Technical Premise and the code provided at:
https://github.com/Zarel/Pokemon-Showdown/tree/master/data

For Fell Stinger, it’s “if” statement is:

if (!target || target.fainted || target.hp <= 0) this.boost({atk: 3}, pokemon, pokemon, move);
        },

This meta removes the last parameter for the if statement, which is checking if the target faints. Now, Fell Stinger raises attack by 3 on hit, as there is no longer a check to see if the move KOs or not.

 

[hiei-q]

I have a bit dumb and simple idea, but maybe someone here likes it, specially if you like super slow-paced battles.

Hidden Battles

Metagame Premise: The only available move is hidden power, also Pokemon can't carry healing-based abilities or items.

Banlist: OU banlist and clauses + red orb, Shedinja, Blissey and Chansey. The following clause is added

Immunity clause: you can only have 1 type-based immunity based ability on your team.

Unbans: every Pokemon with a bst of 600 or lower is allowed: Shaymin-S, Blaziken, Naganadel, Aegislash, mashadow, Landorus, etc. Deoxys-D is left banned. Every mega is allowed as well, besides Mega Gengar. Groudon, Zekrom and the ability Arena Trap are also unbanned.

(Note that pokemon with healing abilities-onnly like Tapu Bulu and Tornadus won't be allowed)

Threats: Hoopa-U has 170 special attack and 130 special defense, so it might probably be the best wallbreaker of the tier. Shuckle is really hard to kill while Regice is also super bulky and also deals really good damage. Suicune might be really good in stall teams due to its access to pressure. Tyranitar with sand stream is really good, since the special defense boost makes him really difficult to kill and the sand damage helps wearing down anything remotely bulky, besides shuckle and Magic Guard users. Groudon, Magnezone and Marshadow sound also pretty good.

How this metagame might work: Since you can use only one move and its really weak, this means each battle will take a while, so patience is key. Taking into account that there are no healing effects, any little amount of damage counts, even a 5% difference on damage is something remarkable. Most pokemon will have just 2 functions: absorb damage and deal it, and they might probably have 1 of this 2 items: assault vest or Choice Specs, depending weather you want to deal more damage or absorb more hits. There are other options however: Normalium-Z can be used to change Hidden power into a 120 Bp normal type move, and shed shell allows steel types to escape of the nightmare of Magnezone without having to threaten its switch in with the unreliable hidden power fighting, ground or with hidden power fire.

Arena trap is unbanned because their users have super bad stats in hp, special defense and special attack, the three main stats in this meta. Dugtrio can, however, be quite useful in this meta because it can trap key threats and cripple them with a 4 times supper effective hidden power. Tyranitar will take a chunk of its hp with hidden power fighting while Hoopa-U struggles taking hidden power bug. Dugtrio can Ko both of those mentioned Pokemon provided it comes in with a double switching or it resits the opposing hidden power (for example, tyranitar hidden power rock), but its main purpose is to weaken those targets, so they lose prevalence later on.

Questions for the community:

My main concern right now is the stall vs stall matchup. I tried banning some pokemon who might deal almost no damage against themselves like Chansey and Blissey, since they might force an eternal switch in fest. Do you think that adding some mechanic to punish massive switch in could be implemented? I thought for example to punish a team that switchs out 3 times in a row by adding Stealth Rock to their side of the field, but it sounds weird for me.

What else can be banned to make stall vs stall playable? Pressure as a whole? Shuckle?

Should Assault Vest be limited to 1 pokemon or just be banned to encourage more offensive play?

Do you think this meta might be fun, for, at least, a small playerbase?

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

I have a bit dumb and simple idea, but maybe someone here likes it, specially if you like super slow-paced battles.

Hidden Battles

Metagame Premise: The only available move is hidden power, also Pokemon can't carry healing-based abilities or items.

Banlist: OU banlist and clauses + red orb, Shedinja, Blissey and Chansey. The following clause is added

Immunity clause: you can only have 1 type-based immunity based ability on your team.

Unbans: every Pokemon with a bst of 600 or lower is allowed: Shaymin-S, Blaziken, Naganadel, Aegislash, mashadow, Landorus, etc. Deoxys-D is left banned. Every mega is allowed as well, besides Mega Gengar. Groudon, Zekrom and the ability Arena Trap are also unbanned.

(Note that pokemon with healing abilities-onnly like Tapu Bulu and Tornadus won't be allowed)

Threats: Hoopa-U has 170 special attack and 130 special defense, so it might probably be the best wallbreaker of the tier. Shuckle is really hard to kill while Regice is also super bulky and also deals really good damage. Suicune might be really good in stall teams due to its access to pressure. Tyranitar with sand stream is really good, since the special defense boost makes him really difficult to kill and the sand damage helps wearing down anything remotely bulky, besides shuckle and Magic Guard users. Groudon, Magnezone and Marshadow sound also pretty good.

How this metagame might work: Since you can use only one move and its really weak, this means each battle will take a while, so patience is key. Taking into account that there are no healing effects, any little amount of damage counts, even a 5% difference on damage is something remarkable. Most pokemon will have just 2 functions: absorb damage and deal it, and they might probably have 1 of this 2 items: assault vest or Choice Specs, depending weather you want to deal more damage or absorb more hits. There are other options however: Normalium-Z can be used to change Hidden power into a 120 Bp normal type move, and shed shell allows steel types to escape of the nightmare of Magnezone without having to threaten its switch in with the unreliable hidden power fighting, ground or with hidden power fire.

Arena trap is unbanned because their users have super bad stats in hp, special defense and special attack, the three main stats in this meta. Dugtrio can, however, be quite useful in this meta because it can trap key threats and cripple them with a 4 times supper effective hidden power. Tyranitar will take a chunk of its hp with hidden power fighting while Hoopa-U struggles taking hidden power bug. Dugtrio can Ko both of those mentioned Pokemon provided it comes in with a double switching or it resits the opposing hidden power (for example, tyranitar hidden power rock), but its main purpose is to weaken those targets, so they lose prevalence later on.

Questions for the community:

My main concern right now is the stall vs stall matchup. I tried banning some pokemon who might deal almost no damage against themselves like Chansey and Blissey, since they might force an eternal switch in fest. Do you think that adding some mechanic to punish massive switch in could be implemented? I thought for example to punish a team that switchs out 3 times in a row by adding Stealth Rock to their side of the field, but it sounds weird for me.

What else can be banned to make stall vs stall playable? Pressure as a whole? Shuckle?

Should Assault Vest be limited to 1 pokemon or just be banned to encourage more offensive play?

Do you think this meta might be fun, for, at least, a small playerbase?

So this meta sounds extremely limiting, and in some of the worst ways. A limiting OM would be like ZU or even Mono Type, as they both have teambuilder restrictions. However, they both keep the basic premise of competitive Pokemon intact.

Limiting mons just to HP is ridiculous, and completely changes the game up in a boring, slow way. Ultimately, I would hate this meta, and I don't think it could catch on. But, I'll bite and answer the community questions.

There's really gonna be no way to mechanically punish switching in game. Hardcoding a Stealth Rock upon switch effect borders on a pet mod and not OM, and you'd at least need to mention it in the premise if you had it. Instead, you could try make a "switching clause" that prevents a player from switching out multiple times in a row. But, if you think that this meta is just gonna be a big stall switchfest in the first place, whats the point.

I think that stall is gonna love pressure stalling, and make teams out of it entirely, so i'd say just ban pressure. It's also obvious that assvest is the best defensive item in the game, and Choice Specs the best offensive one. These two balance each other out, but an Item Clause is all you need to make some diversity the meta would love.

Lastly, even though it derives from your main idea, you could change this meta so that: Every attack has Hidden Power's characteristics (60 bp, 100% accuracy, and type based on IVs) with its own secondary effects. That remains the "each Pokemon only has one type of attack" gimmick, but offers much more diversity instead of limitation.

 

[Yveltal for PU]

Lastly, even though it derives from your main idea, you could change this meta so that: Every attack has Hidden Power's characteristics (60 bp, 100% accuracy, and type based on IVs) with its own secondary effects. That remains the "each Pokemon only has one type of attack" gimmick, but offers much more diversity instead of limitation.

Yeah because otherwise shedinja is busted if you carry the wrong hidden power type.
EDIT: you’d also have to give hidden power like 20K pp

 

[hiei-q]

So this meta sounds extremely limiting, and in some of the worst ways. A limiting OM would be like ZU or even Mono Type, as they both have teambuilder restrictions. However, they both keep the basic premise of competitive Pokemon intact.

Limiting mons just to HP is ridiculous, and completely changes the game up in a boring, slow way. Ultimately, I would hate this meta, and I don't think it could catch on. But, I'll bite and answer the community questions.

There's really gonna be no way to mechanically punish switching in game. Hardcoding a Stealth Rock upon switch effect borders on a pet mod and not OM, and you'd at least need to mention it in the premise if you had it. Instead, you could try make a "switching clause" that prevents a player from switching out multiple times in a row. But, if you think that this meta is just gonna be a big stall switchfest in the first place, whats the point.

I think that stall is gonna love pressure stalling, and make teams out of it entirely, so i'd say just ban pressure. It's also obvious that assvest is the best defensive item in the game, and Choice Specs the best offensive one. These two balance each other out, but an Item Clause is all you need to make some diversity the meta would love.

Lastly, even though it derives from your main idea, you could change this meta so that: Every attack has Hidden Power's characteristics (60 bp, 100% accuracy, and type based on IVs) with its own secondary effects. That remains the "each Pokemon only has one type of attack" gimmick, but offers much more diversity instead of limitation.

Thank you for the feedback. By limiting options, you have more room to think ahead on what your oponent would do in each situation, though I know limiting metas doesn't sound attractive to most people and there are clear reasons for that.

I thought on a switch clause, but it might be complicating the things too much for more bulky offensive teams that cant rely on switch out too often. Most pokemon wont work without specs, since they woud feal very little damage, so i woudnt add an item clause. But limiting vest could work to mitigate stall playstyles. With assault vest limited pressure shoudnt be a big issue, besides Suicune/Entei maybe or whole teams built on based on pressure, but baning it might be the best.

The alternative premise is cool, it adds more pp to attack, physicall attacks, and there are some nice effects. There might be some issues with ice type moves or dynamicpunch but not to much else. I might consider it, though i doubt i will submit this meta.

Yeah because otherwise shedinja is busted if you carry the wrong hidden power type.
EDIT: you’d also have to give hidden power like 20K pp

Even by having multiple "hidden powers", if they have the same type, then shedinja can still coming in and deal some damage.

 

[W0rm]

Full Effect: Final Revision

(Ignore everything about Full Effect prior to this post. I worked out all the quirks, as now I made it as unbiased as it could be. Previously, there was a lot of debate on how to handle some effects. Here, I made it technically a code based factor to decide what is affected or not. See in Technical Premise. Also, check the pastebins for what changes.)


Premise: All items, moves, and abilities have their best effect immediately and always activated, bar Type based conditions.

The idea for this meta is that mechanics with conditions that rely on certain parameters to be met can now be used without any set up needed. To be more technical, this meta automatically activates any single condition that would naturally work for the mechanic's favor. Here are some examples to get a full idea for the meta:

>Electric Seed: Normally, the seed items are consumed when the Pokemon holding it enters the corresponding terrain. Now, the terrain is no longer needed for the item to be consumed, and the item is used immediately.
(It should be noted that if the user's defense is at +6, this item is used and fails. Or, if bars like Embargo or Magic Room are present, then the item won't be used until these conditions are gone. The only condition that this meta satisfies are is the single, advantageous condition that is intrinsic to the item or mechanic itself, and nothing external like Embargo’s effect).

>Acrobatics: Will always be the full 110 bp, even if the user holds an item.

>Earthquake: If you are unaware, Earthquake doubles power on Pokemon that are underground because of Dig. This meta removes that underground condition, and makes EQ always 200 bp. This move, among others, will probably need to be banned.

>Blaze: Will always be active, regardless of remaining HP.

>Aloraichium Z: No longer needed to be held by just Alolan Raichu, so any Pokemon with Thunderbolt can use this Z move!

So this is the idea of the metagame, as some strategies are immediately viable now. However, not everything is affected, and many effects need to be banned.

Technical Premise:



Pastebins for Everything Changed:
Items: https://pastebin.com/13rLc1rj
Abilities: https://pastebin.com/pZTfPBjj
Moves: https://pastebin.com/v4exd9CC


Sample Sets:


Bans and Clauses:
OU clauses and banlists, with the following bans (NOTE: if the Pokemon’s only abilities are banned, it is implied by extension that the Pokemon would be banned too):

Items: Focus Sash, Safety Goggles, Weakness Policy

Pokemon Specific Items (ban only affects Pokemon that are NOT normally affected by the item): Eviolite, Eevium Z, Deep Sea Scale, Deep Sea Tooth, Light Ball, Metal Powder, Quick Powder, Thick Club.

Abilities: Anger Point, Bulletproof, Chlorophyl, Dazzling, Disguise, Magic Bounce, Magic Guard, Multiscale, Poison Heal, Queenly Majesty, Sand Rush, Sturdy, Swift Swim, Unburden, Wonder Guard, Overcoat, Slush Rush, Soundproof, Surge Surfer, Damp, Sand Veil, Snow Cloak, Tinted Lens, Tangled Feet.

Moves: Attract, Body Slam, Crafty Shield, Dragon Rush, Earthquake, Fake Out, Flying Press, Fusion Bolt, Fusion Flare, Heat Crash, Heavy Slam, Magic Coat, Magnitude, Sleep Talk, Spit Up, Surf.

Sample Teams:

Lead Mew HO
https://pokepast.es/a1794f67fffae030
(Mew sets up rocks and veil without needing hail, then has many abusers that can set up and sweep)

Rain Balance
https://pokepast.es/78ebb281c0f7c391
(Rain provides a great Brine buff, and helps build a decent offensive and defensive core)

Rocky Helmet Spam
https://pokepast.es/8903e5336eb88c48
(Rocky Helmet and other contact effects are now affected by every attack. This team utilizes this effect so that the threat of passive damage wears down the opponent)

SWALOT NIGHTMARE Stall
https://pokepast.es/be7356fee9f0da64
(Nightmare works even on non sleeping targets, making it a dangerous status effect. Swalot specifically has Infestation and Nightmare, along with Swallow to recover 100% of its max HP. Past this effect, its just hyper stall)

Sounds great, but I'm curious as to why certain abilities aren't affected. For example, if Filter works and reduces damage from all attacks, why is Thick Fat unaffected, despite both of them targeting certain move types (though filter's targeted types are dependent on the pokemon using it) and having a similar function?

It seems like most, if not all, type based abilities function like this, which I guess is fine, since a TONNE of them would be ban worthy if they were changed (like water absorb working with all attacks) but I'm wondering if that was a deliberate choice or if there's some kind of mechanical justification behind it.

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

So again this is a bit tricky of an intreptation, but it comes down to the code is all.
The type clause in the premis is designed for conditions that actually list out a type. So for Thick Fat, it checks for “Fire” or “Ice” attacks, then changes the damage modifier to be half. Without the type clause, Thick Fat would halve all attacks.
But, an ability like Filter, or items like Weakness Policy and the weakness berries like Charti Berry, do not work this way. Instead, they have a “typeModifier” function that checks the type match up, but not actual types. So when Filter is activated, it first checks if the incoming attack has a higher than one typeModifier, as that would imply a super effective hit, and then it reduces damage. Now, it just reduces damage regardless.
Hope that clears things up!

Sounds great, but I'm curious as to why certain abilities aren't affected. For example, if Filter works and reduces damage from all attacks, why is Thick Fat unaffected, despite both of them targeting certain move types (though filter's targeted types are dependent on the pokemon using it) and having a similar function?

It seems like most, if not all, type based abilities function like this, which I guess is fine, since a TONNE of them would be ban worthy if they were changed (like water absorb working with all attacks) but I'm wondering if that was a deliberate choice or if there's some kind of mechanical justification behind it.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

Question: Why is Unnerve unaffected? Shouldn't it disable the opponents held item, or at least prevent consumable held items like Electric Seed and Focus Sash from activating?

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

Question: Why is Unnerve unaffected? Shouldn't it disable the opponents held item, or at least prevent consumable held items like Electric Seed and Focus Sash from activating?

},
        onFoeTryEatItem: false,
        id: "unnerve",
        name: "Unnerve",
        rating: 1.5,
        num: 127,

Essentially, the “onFoeTryEatItem” is a function of its own, and only applies to berries. So, its technically always active and without condition, meaning it wouldn’t be affected.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

},
        onFoeTryEatItem: false,
        id: "unnerve",
        name: "Unnerve",
        rating: 1.5,
        num: 127,

Essentially, the “onFoeTryEatItem” is a function of its own, and only applies to berries. So, its technically always active and without condition, meaning it wouldn’t be affected.

Interesting. I guess the same applies to Harvest; it can't restore any item that isn't a berry.


Now I have the mental image of a Pokemon eating a Focus Sash.

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

Potential Bans/Unbans of Full Effect

There are a few mons/abiltites that I am on the fence about banning or not. I don’t have it all coded yet, nor do I have a punloc server to teat everything on, so it’s all hypothetical. I’d love some feedback from anyone who likes this kind of theory crafting!


1. Tinted Lenses
In this meta, Tinted Lenses doubles the bp of all attacks (not just NVE ones).

Some sets are no doubt broken:
Venomoth @ Mewnium Z
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Psychic
- Venoshock
- Hidden Power [Ground] / Bug Buzz / Sleeping Powder

Genesis Supernova is 370 bp thanks to Timted Lenses, and sets up Psychic Terrian for a nice priority immunity and buff to Psychic. Furthermore, Venoshock is 390 after stab and TL. You don’t even need QD or Sleeping Powder to set up; you’re already a killer. This mon would no doubt need to be banned.

Take a similar QD sweeper, but isn't as effective:
Butterfree @ Buginium Z / Flyinium Z
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Sleep Powder
- Bug Buzz
- Air Slash

Butterfree takes many of the same perks from the Venomoth set, but has a lower base speed of 70, worse bulk, and a typing that is x4 weak to SR. It also doesn't particularly like running Mewium Z either, as it isn't affected by Psychic Terrain. It's speed only gets to a max of 393 at +1, making it slower than all base 130 mons and above. Even at +2 it only reaches. 524, which is slower than all mons base 110 speed at only +1 (Scarf, Salac Berry, ect). So, it already is much easier to deal with. But, stil doubling the base power of all attacks is crazy...
+1 252 SpA Butterfree Savage Spin-Out (350 BP) vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 421-496 (59.9 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Butterfree Savage Spin-Out (350 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Koko: 420-494 (149.4 - 175.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

These two calcs should show you how dangerous this mon is, as its z move is almost guaranteed to take something down once it gets off a QD. Which, can be a lot easier if Butterfree out speeds and puts it to sleep. I can see 50/50s where players either switch in their scarfer expecting a QD, or switch in a Grass type to avoide the Sleep Powder. Its a dangerous 50/50, but you keep rocks up, the Butterfree player can't afford to lose more than 2 of them. Also, mons like specialy defensive Celesteela, Heatran, and Magearna can take hits and fire back hard once something else is put to sleep. My verdict is that Butterfree isn't nearly as offensive as Venomoth is with Tinted Lenses.

Another top user of TL is Yanmega, which is the stongest TL user:
Yanmega @ Choice Specs / Salac Berry
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Bug Buzz
- Air Slash
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Shadow Ball / U-Turn

A specs set gets a lot of bang for your buck, and lets you take advantage of its stabs, pivoting, and decent coverage in Shadow Ball.
252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Bug Buzz (180 BP) vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 258-304 (36.7 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Air Slash vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 214-253 (30.4 - 36%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 164+ SpD Ferrothorn: 504-596 (143.1 - 169.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 229-270 (59.3 - 69.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 156 SpD Celesteela: 308-364 (77.5 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 224+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 162-192 (44.6 - 52.8%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Air Slash vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 190-225 (62.7 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Yanmega with specs and the right prediction can wear down any classic OU defensive mon. Simply having Ghost/Fire coverage is enough to deal with many of the Steel typed special walls that would normally deal with your stabs. It is an absolute wall breaker, and is so fast that of course many offensive mons like Starmie are 1HKOd by any attack besides HP Fire. It is ridiculously hard to switch into, and theres no real defensive check besides Stealth Rock. If TL got unbanned, then I am almost certain Yanmega would have to go.
Is it x4 weak to SR? Yes. Is it slow and easy to revenge kill? That too! But it doesn't take away how if it gets a safe switch in, there exits virtually no defensive checks that can take its attacks. Even Chancey has to fear getting flinched by Air Slash. It just is so dang strong with specs that it could steamroll slower teams with little external support, and I see that as broken.

Here's another beast:
Sigilyph @ Salac Berry
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Dream Eater / Synchronoise
- Heat Wave
- Air Slash / Roost

Here are some calcs that show how many CMs (if any) are needed to 2HKO many common special walls:
+2 252 SpA Sigilyph Dream Eater vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 351-414 (50 - 58.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(61.5 - 72.6% recovered)
+1 252 SpA Sigilyph Dream Eater vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 198-233 (51.2 - 60.3%) -- 89.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Sigilyph Heat Wave vs. 248 HP / 156 SpD Celesteela: 300-354 (75.5 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Sigilyph Heat Wave vs. 248 HP / 224+ SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 158-186 (43.5 - 51.2%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Sigilyph Dream Eater vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Mantine: 241-285 (64.4 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

(Ttar does a great job pursuit trapping and walling Sig):
252 SpA Sigilyph Air Slash vs. 168 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 69-82 (18 - 21.4%) -- possible 5HKO

But besides Ttar, Sig's speed and sweeping potential with CM alone is scary. Of course you can get that +1 special attack right of the bat with specs, but I can see Sig being its most threatening as a fast late game sweeper. And thats just with Dream Eater, as the extra 20 bp in Synchronoise also helps Sig nab more 1HKOs at +0 and +1. Again, I think it's just too strong to let go unbanned.

Tinted Lenses is essentially a Huge Power for both attack and special attack in Full Effect. Huge Power / Pure Power are balanced mostly in game because the mons that have them either have attacking stats lower than base 70, or are restrained to a mega stone. Being able to hold a choice item for power or speed, or a Z Move for absolute damage, on top of having decent attacking stats might just be too much. I can go on and show that even Noctowl has a chance to 2HKO Chansey after rocks:
252 SpA Choice Specs Noctowl Round (240 bp) vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 280-331 (39.8 - 47.1%) -- 44.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

I'm leaning towards keeping TL banned. If anything, anything at all, Veno would no doubt be banned, and the rest would all need to be watched to see if they can truly be checked. At that point, TL may as well be gone I think.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

Potential Bans/Unbans of Full Effect

There are a few mons/abiltites that I am on the fence about banning or not. I don’t have it all coded yet, nor do I have a punloc server to teat everything on, so it’s all hypothetical. I’d love some feedback from anyone who likes this kind of theory crafting!


1. Tinted Lenses
In this meta, Tinted Lenses doubles the bp of all attacks (not just NVE ones).
Some sets are no doubt broken:
Venomoth @ Mewnium Z
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Psychic
- Venoshock
- Hidden Power [Ground] / Bug Buzz / Sleeping Powder

Genesis Supernova is 370 bp thanks to Timted Lenses, and sets up Psychic Terrian for a nice priority immunity and buff to Psychic. Furthermore, Venoshock is 390 after stab and TL. You don’t even need QD or Sleeping Powder to set up; you’re already a killer. This mon would no doubt need to be banned.

However, mons like Noctowl, Sigiliqh, and even Butterfree all have some serious drawbacks that might make them not as broken. What do you guys think? Which moms should be allowed/banned, or should TL just be gone as a whole?

As long as you're keeping similar defensive abilities like Fluffy and Filter, I'd keep Tinted Lens around, but keep an eye on it. Noctowl and Sigilyph both get buffed in this meta with accurate Hurricanes and spammable Synchronoise / Dream Eater, respectively. Also, as long as you're allowing Prankster, I'd unban speed boosting abilities like Unburden and Swift Swim.

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

As long as you're keeping similar defensive abilities like Fluffy and Filter, I'd keep Tinted Lens around, but keep an eye on it. Noctowl and Sigilyph both get buffed in this meta with accurate Hurricanes and spammable Synchronoise / Dream Eater, respectively. Also, as long as you're allowing Prankster, I'd unban speed boosting abilities like Unburden and Swift Swim.

Swift Swim and co would really mess with the speed tiers is all, and there’s totally a ton of ridiculous abusers with this ability that it be way too centralizing. Just too many good users to count, but to name a few, Shell Smash Omastar with Brine/Blizzard/Earth Power, Stomping Tantrum Mega Swampert is a killer (can even use Blizzard for Lando/Gar), Veno with Growth/Sleep Powder/Venoshock/Solarbeam (or Stomping Tantrum as well), and SD Sand Rush Exa being a monster as well. Just too many abusers, and it no doubt would dictate the meta.
However, both Surge Surfer and Slush Rush have limited, not the best users, and might be worth suspecting. Alolan Sandslash and Beartic are a bit slow even fully invested, and can be outsped by faster +1 speed checks. Alolan Raichu would be the fastest mon in the meta, but is still a bit frail, weak to Sucker, and has a limited strength and coverage. I’d imagine maybe these three mons could bypass the “x2 speed ability” ban.

 

[hiei-q]

Full Effect: Final Revision

(Ignore everything about Full Effect prior to this post. I worked out all the quirks, as now I made it as unbiased as it could be. Previously, there was a lot of debate on how to handle some effects. Here, I made it technically a code based factor to decide what is affected or not. See in Technical Premise. Also, check the pastebins for what changes.)


Premise: All items, moves, and abilities have their best effect immediately and always activated, bar Type based conditions.

The idea for this meta is that mechanics with conditions that rely on certain parameters to be met can now be used without any set up needed. To be more technical, this meta automatically activates any single condition that would naturally work for the mechanic's favor. Here are some examples to get a full idea for the meta:

>Electric Seed: Normally, the seed items are consumed when the Pokemon holding it enters the corresponding terrain. Now, the terrain is no longer needed for the item to be consumed, and the item is used immediately.
(It should be noted that if the user's defense is at +6, this item is used and fails. Or, if bars like Embargo or Magic Room are present, then the item won't be used until these conditions are gone. The only condition that this meta satisfies are is the single, advantageous condition that is intrinsic to the item or mechanic itself, and nothing external like Embargo’s effect).

>Acrobatics: Will always be the full 110 bp, even if the user holds an item.

>Earthquake: If you are unaware, Earthquake doubles power on Pokemon that are underground because of Dig. This meta removes that underground condition, and makes EQ always 200 bp. This move, among others, will probably need to be banned.

>Blaze: Will always be active, regardless of remaining HP.

>Aloraichium Z: No longer needed to be held by just Alolan Raichu, so any Pokemon with Thunderbolt can use this Z move!

So this is the idea of the metagame, as some strategies are immediately viable now. However, not everything is affected, and many effects need to be banned.

Technical Premise:



Pastebins for Everything Changed:
Items: https://pastebin.com/13rLc1rj
Abilities: https://pastebin.com/pZTfPBjj
Moves: https://pastebin.com/v4exd9CC


Sample Sets:


Bans and Clauses:
OU clauses and banlists, with the following bans (NOTE: if the Pokemon’s only abilities are banned, it is implied by extension that the Pokemon would be banned too):

Items: Focus Sash, Safety Goggles, Weakness Policy

Pokemon Specific Items (ban only affects Pokemon that are NOT normally affected by the item): Eviolite, Eevium Z, Deep Sea Scale, Deep Sea Tooth, Light Ball, Metal Powder, Quick Powder, Thick Club.

Abilities: Anger Point, Bulletproof, Chlorophyl, Dazzling, Disguise, Magic Bounce, Magic Guard, Multiscale, Poison Heal, Queenly Majesty, Sand Rush, Sturdy, Swift Swim, Unburden, Wonder Guard, Overcoat, Slush Rush, Soundproof, Surge Surfer, Damp, Sand Veil, Snow Cloak, Tinted Lens, Tangled Feet.

Moves: Attract, Body Slam, Crafty Shield, Dragon Rush, Earthquake, Fake Out, Flying Press, Fusion Bolt, Fusion Flare, Heat Crash, Heavy Slam, Magic Coat, Magnitude, Sleep Talk, Spit Up, Surf.

Sample Teams:

Lead Mew HO
https://pokepast.es/a1794f67fffae030
(Mew sets up rocks and veil without needing hail, then has many abusers that can set up and sweep)

Rain Balance
https://pokepast.es/78ebb281c0f7c391
(Rain provides a great Brine buff, and helps build a decent offensive and defensive core)

Rocky Helmet Spam
https://pokepast.es/8903e5336eb88c48
(Rocky Helmet and other contact effects are now affected by every attack. This team utilizes this effect so that the threat of passive damage wears down the opponent)

SWALOT NIGHTMARE Stall
https://pokepast.es/be7356fee9f0da64
(Nightmare works even on non sleeping targets, making it a dangerous status effect. Swalot specifically has Infestation and Nightmare, along with Swallow to recover 100% of its max HP. Past this effect, its just hyper stall)

There are a lot of abilities banned, and that might bring some problems. Most abilities depend on conditions (pr drawbacks) to make them relevant in most scenarios (rather than giving a 10% boost on attack, give a 30% boost on specific attacks or boost attacks while lowering accuraccy, etc.). The number of banned moves is also high but at least most of them are not relevant in standard play, besides surf and earthquake, which can be replaced by brine and stomping tantrum.

I'd suggest not touching abilities and focusing the premise on items and moves alone. Maybe you can remove the type condition part since most items or moves are not focused on type and there are few things broken, like freeze dry for instance.

Also removing abilities from premise will prevent some pokemon like mimykyu or mega pert from leaving the meta.

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

Pokemon banned because their only are abilities banned: Mimikyu, Mega Swampert, Sheninja, Kommo-o, Alolan Raichu, Mega Absol, Mega Diance, Mega Sabeleye, Sandlash, and Forretress. Including megas, there are 10 mons immediately banned, which is only one more than Stabmons, and two less than AAA. I don’t think losing that many mons is the worst, but I do reconize that there will probably need to be more as the meta devolps.
If anything were to change, I’d drop the move and items before I’d drop abilities. Abilities in Full Effect are some of the most fun mechanics to abuse! And I don’t mean that from a broken standpoint, becuase I think it’s the opposite instead. There’s only a small list of moves affected, and not enough to justify an OM. However, almost every mon has an ability that is affected here. That makes it worthwhile to make it an OM I believe, but the fact that the effect carries over to items / moves helps with the idea that there’s a meta where good conditions are always satisfied. And its not like there could be two metas, “FE Abilities” and “FE Items and Moves.” So, may as well lump them together and deal with the powercreep.

There are a lot of abilities banned, and that might bring some problems. Most abilities depend on conditions (pr drawbacks) to make them relevant in most scenarios (rather than giving a 10% boost on attack, give a 30% boost on specific attacks or boost attacks while lowering accuraccy, etc.). The number of banned moves is also high but at least most of them are not relevant in standard play, besides surf and earthquake, which can be replaced by brine and stomping tantrum.

I'd suggest not touching abilities and focusing the premise on items and moves alone. Maybe you can remove the type condition part since most items or moves are not focused on type and there are few things broken, like freeze dry for instance.

Also removing abilities from premise will prevent some pokemon like mimykyu or mega pert from leaving the meta.

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

Full Effect: New Viable Attacks for each Type:

Bug:
-Steamroller (130 bp, -- ac, 30% chance to flinch)
-First Impression(90 bp, 100 ac, +2 priority, works every turn)
-Fell Stinger (50 bp, 100 ac, +3 attack on hit)
Dark:
-Malicious Moonsault (360 bp, -- ac, can be used by any Pokemon with Darkest Lariat and the correct Z move)
-Assurance (120 bp, 100 ac)
-Payback (100 bp, 100 ac)
-Knock Off (97.5 bp, 100 ac, knocks off item)
-Pursuit (80 bp, 100 ac, hits switching out targets)
-Sucker Punch (70 bp, 100 ac, +1 priority, never fails)
Dragon:
-Twister (80 bp, 100 ac, 20% chance to flinch)
Electric:
-10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt (195, -- ac, +2 crit ratio, used by any Pokemon with Thunderbolt and the correct Z move)
-Stoked Sparksurfer (175 bp, --ac, 100% chance to paralyze, used by any Pokemon with Thunderbolt and the correct Z move)
-Thunder (110 bp, -- ac, 30% chance to paralyze)
Fairy:
-Let's Snuggle Forever (190, -- ac, can be used by any Pokemon with Play Rough and the correct Z move)
Fighting:
-Wake Up Slap (140 bp, 100 ac, wakes up sleeping targets)
Fire:
-NA
Flying:
-Hurricane (110 bp, -- ac, 30% chance to confuse)
-Acrobatics (110 bp, 100 ac)
-Beak Blast (100 bp, 100 ac, burns enemies that target it before the user attacks)
-Gust (80 bp, 100 ac)
Ghost
-Hex (130 bp, 100 ac)
Grass
-Solar Blade (125 bp, 100 ac, one turn attack)
-Solar Beam (120 bp, 100 ac, one turn attack)
Ground
-Stomping Tantrum (150 bp, 100 ac)
Ice
-Blizzard (100 bp, -- ac, 10% chance to freeze)
-Avalanche (120 bp, 100 ac, -4 priority)
Normal
-Pulverizing Pancake (210 bp, -- ac, used by any Pokemon with Giga Impact and the correct Z move)
-Last Resort (140 bp, 100 ac, works even with other moves not selected)
-Facade (140 bp, 100 ac)
-Retaliate (140 bp, 100 ac)
-Smelling Salts (140 bp, 100 ac, cures paralysis)
-Round (120 bp, 100 ac)
-Snore (50 bp, 100 ac, 30% chance to flinch, does not need to be asleep)
Posion
-Venoshock (130 bp, 100 ac)
-Belch (120 bp, 90 ac, no berry needs to be consumed)
Psychic
-Genesis Supernova (185 bp, -- ac, summons Psychic Terrain for 5 turns, used by any Pokemon with Psychic and the correct Z move)
-Synchronoise (120 bp, 100 ac, can be any type)*
-Dream Eater (100 bp, 100 ac, 50% health recovered, target does not need to be asleep)
Rock
-Splinterd Stoneshards (190 bp, -- ac, can be used by any Pokemon with Stone Edge and the correct Z move)
Steel
-NA
Water
-Brine (130 bp, 100 ac)

Note that this list does not include any of the new status moves that are changed in the meta. It also does not include attacks that are changed but are either banned, used only by Ubers/Smeargal, or moves that are still unviable after the changes.

Use this as a recourse to check if the set could maybe use a better attack that you were unaware was buffed. Its interesting how some types have no buffed attacks, while others are much stronger than others. Stomping Tantrum is the strongest, spamable legal move at 150 bp, while attacks like Thunder and Dream Eater are strong with decent secondary effects to take advantage of.


*The "if (!target.hasType(source.getTypes())) {" function is not an inherent, singular type check, which is why Sychronoise is not included int the premise's Type clause. In comparison, a move like Freeze Dry has a check like: if "type === 'Water'". This is the kind of check that is ignored in this meta.

 

[hiei-q]

Full Effect: New Viable Attacks for each Type:


Note that this list does not include any of the new status moves that are changed in the meta. It also does not include attacks that are changed but are either banned, used only by Ubers/Smeargal, or moves that are still unviable after the changes.

Use this as a recourse to check if the set could maybe use a better attack that you were unaware was buffed. Its interesting how some types have no buffed attacks, while others are much stronger than others. Stomping Tantrum is the strongest, spamable legal move at 150 bp, while attacks like Thunder and Dream Eater are strong with decent secondary effects to take advantage of.


*The "if (!target.hasType(source.getTypes())) {" function is not an inherent, singular type check, which is why Sychronoise is not included int the premise's Type clause. In comparison, a move like Freeze Dry has a check like: if "type === 'Water'". This is the kind of check that is ignored in this meta.

A victini's Fusion Flare with life orb has the same power than a high jump kick from mega medicham. I know that is pretty darn strong but does it justify a ban? (Victini also has thunder/thbolt, Facade and solar beam btw).

Edit: i Forgot to put Z-Celebrate on consideration, with that move Victini would be almost unstoppable

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

A victini's Fusion Flare with life orb has the same power than a high jump kick from mega medicham. I know that is pretty darn strong but does it justify a ban? (Victini also has thunder/thbolt, Facade and solar beam btw).

Edit: i Forgot to put Z-Celebrate on considerarion, with that move Victini would be almost unstoppable

Totally looked into it. It was banned early on by the principle alone of having a 200 bp spammable stab on a decent mon being broken; but maybe not. Heres a few perspectives:

With a Normalium Z, Specs, or Peteya Berry set, Fusion Flare can be used at +1 special attack pretty easily. Here's some noteworthy attacks where Fusion Flare (200 bp) is a 2HKO, while Searing Shot is a 3HKO:
+1 252 SpA Victini Fusion Flare vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 216-255 (61.3 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Victini Fusion Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Unaware Clefable: 211-249 (53.5 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Victini Fusion Flare vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 233-275 (55.4 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Victini Fusion Flare vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash: 192-227 (63.3 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And here's where the difference is a 1HKO compared to 2HKO:
+1 252 SpA Victini Fusion Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 325-384 (107.9 - 127.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Victini Fusion Flare vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tapu Bulu: 408-480 (118.9 - 139.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Victini Fusion Flare vs. 252 HP / 164+ SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 568-672 (161.3 - 190.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Victini Fusion Flare vs. 80 HP / 0- SpD Landorus-Therian: 546-643 (161 - 189.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Victini Fusion Flare vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele: 360-424 (128.1 - 150.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Victini Fusion Flare vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Jolteon: 424-499 (156.4 - 184.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Victini Fusion Flare vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 442-522 (147.8 - 174.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Victini Fusion Flare vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 606-714 (150 - 176.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Victini Fusion Flare vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 408-480 (101.7 - 119.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

And the list goes on. Its mostly that 1HKO to 2HKO difference, and that even max special def Unaware Clef can't deal with it. It can easily tear through more offensive teams at +1 alone. It just looks inherently broken to me, when a sweeper loses a ton of would-be checks by switching to an attack with little opportunity costs, and again is a whopping 200 bp. Anyways, if Fusion Flare was only on a mon that was weaker or slower, so like Inciniroar or Torkoal, I think there would be more debate. Victini just has a much better BST, movepool, and sweeping potential compared to lesser Fire types, so giving a 200 bp stab is just bonkers.

I hope the calcs help show just how much of a difference 100 bp can make when getting one hit and two hit KOs. If not, lemmie know what I messed up or am forgetting!

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

Full Effect Bans/Unbans part 2: Slush Rush and Surge Surfer

The last post I had went over Tinted Lenses. I did the calcs for the TL mons, knowing that in FE it acts as a Huge Power for both attacking stats. Ultimately, there is no doubt Venomoth is extremely broken with it, but even specs Noctowl/Yanmega/Sigiliph all have little to no switch ins that aren't 2HKOd with the right attack. Even though Butterfree/Mothim/Illimuse all have enough serious drawbacks that make them balanced enough, I believe the best choice of action is to just ban this inherently broken ability.

Here, let's analyze the lesser of the speed doubling abilities and their subpar users:
Sandslash-Alola @ Icium Z / Light Clay
Ability: Slush Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Icicle Crash
- Iron Head / Aurora Veil
- Drill Run

At max speed, Sandslash gets to a 502 speed, and with no penalties from scarf or salac berry. At only 252 investment, it reaches 458, which is slower than base 100 speed mons at +1. Because of this, I believe its always right to go Jolly over Adamant. This lackluster max speed is a bit of a bummer, and on top of Sandslash's x4 Fire and Fighting weaknesses, there's no doubt many ways to deal with this mon.
It is a bit scary though once it gets off a Swords Dance and with SR support. At +2, Subzero Slammer can make a huge dent:
+2 252 Atk Sandslash-Alola Subzero Slammer (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 92 Def Ferrothorn: 321-378 (91.1 - 107.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Sandslash-Alola Subzero Slammer (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 247-292 (74.1 - 87.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Sandslash-Alola Subzero Slammer (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 104+ Def Celesteela: 349-412 (87.9 - 103.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

What's even scarier is that even without set up, Subzero Slammer threatens a ton of offensive mons. With it being so fast, it has great chances at 1HKOs with rocks up or a little extra prior chip damage. And if all else fails, there is that 30% chance to flinch with Icicle Crash.

The two big problems with this mon is the coverage and special defense. Even if you were to go a full Ice/Steel/Ground/Dark coverage without SD, it still fails to have any attack that is really strong after it busts its Z move. This is a meta where base 120-150 attacks are the meta,, and with a base 100 attack and no damage buffing ability, Sandslash can feel underwhelming. It could try to muster through it's checks by setting up multiple SDs, and can even do so plausibly now that Aurora Veil works without hail. It still needs light clay to last longer, and could be an option if you just want a fast screen set up. Regardless, it really needs more power, as it can easily be revenged killed with its lackluster special defense. Brines and Thunders aren't even super effective, but they are likely to 1HKO Sandlsash because of its low special defense. Any attack that is Fire, Fighting, and even Ground because of the Stomping Tantrum buff, are all likely to 1HKO as well. That frailness, and its subpar coverage might be enough to make it unbanned.

However, there is more potential here:
Sandslash-Alola @ Light Clay
Ability: Slush Rush
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Aurora Veil
- Stealth Rock
- Rapid Spin
- Icicle Crash

As a full veil support mon, Sandslash's great speed can almost guarantee that you get it up. It even has hazard support and removal, all in one mon! Now, Aurora Veil might be broken and suspected for a ban by itself, all because the no need for hail. So I'd still say its more likely that veil gets banned before A-Sandslash gets the boot.

The other fully evolved Slush Rush user is Beartic:
Beartic @ Icium Z / Fightinium Z / Choice Band
Ability: Slush Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Icicle Crash
- Superpower
- Assurance
- Sword Dance / Facade

Beartic has similar speed and coverage problems as Sandslash. At max, it only reaches 436, which is just slower than base 150 speed mons like Mega Alakazam or Aerodactyl. That still makes it one of the fastest mons unboosted, which is great, but it's still likely to be out speed by many mons at +1 speed. Essentially, it will work best being a revenge killer more so than sweeper because of the speed shortcomings (and no, I don't believe Aqua Jet is too viable either). Icium Z sets are similar to Sandslash, and are even a bit stronger. But, Sandslash had a Steel typing and veil to make setting up easy. Beartic is mono Ice, and with only resistance, it's all too easy to take it out. Thats why I think a band set would be fine as well, because taking advantage of the high power with Assurance and Facade can really open up the amount of targets you can revenge kill.

Beartic is no doubt balanced in many ways, as its speed and power is let down by its below average defenses, lack of resistances, and a speed that is manageable. It could be possible that, worse case scenario, Alolan Sandslash is gone but Beartic stays.

There's also a fast pivot set that could work fine:
Raichu-Alola @ Choice Specs
Ability: Surge Surfer
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Thunder
- Psyshock
- Surf Focus Blast

Surf is incompatible with Nasty Plot, but is fine on a specs set to nail Ground types that may feel risky enough to predict a Volt Switch. Focus Blast on specs can really help deal with would be checks like Ferro and ttar when the opponent is expecting nasty plot sets without it. Thunder also has that nasty 30% para chance, which again can be a good speed check.

Nasty Plot doubles special attack, and Mewium Z allows a strong Gensis Supernova that also sets up Psychic Terrian for Raichu to sweep in (yes, I see the irony of Alolan Raichu sweeping in Psychic Terrian lol). I included both Psychic and Psyshock so you can nail special walls, ans Thunder of course is a great stab. With this set's variation, it can do some scary stuff:
+2 252+ SpA Raichu-Alola Psyshock vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey in Psychic Terrain: 459-541 (65.3 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Raichu-Alola Genesis Supernova vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Unaware Clefable: 291-343 (73.8 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ SpA Raichu-Alola Genesis Supernova vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 378-446 (104.4 - 123.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Raichu-Alola Genesis Supernova vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 556-655 (137.6 - 162.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Now, Alolan Raichiu is both frail (no doubt going down to any Stomping Tantrum, Knock Off, or Assurance) and does have its own list of defensive checks like Ferrothorn, Tyranitar, Alolan Muk, and more. With its signature Z move instead, Raichu can hurt and paralyze any mon that's vulnerable to the attack. That is a perfect speed check even if you let your opponent use a speed boosting move, as it is hard for them to out speed Surge Surfer even after a turn of setting up.

There's also a fast pivot set that could work fine:
Raichu-Alola @ Choice Specs
Ability: Surge Surfer
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Thunder
- Psyshock
- Surf

Surf is incompatible with Nasty Plot, but is fine on a specs set to nail Ground types that may feel risky enough to predict a Volt Switch. Thunder alos has that nasty 30% para chance, which again can be a good speed check.


Alolan Raichu has its flaws, but it has the ability to set up and sweep under Psychic Terrain, or even just be a fast and powerful pivot. I think it just eliminates a lot of its checks with its z move and Nasty Plot, but I can't confidently call it broken yet. I'd have to see how centralizing it could be, and if any other sets arise and are even better.


So, the verdict is that in the best case scenario, all three are unbanned and likely great mons in the tier. Though, I do think it's more plausible that Aurora Veil is banned rather than Slush Rush, and that Surge Surfer also stays banned.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

Raichu-Alola @ Choice Specs
Ability: Surge Surfer
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Thunder
- Psyshock
- Surf

Isn't Surf banned?

EDIT: Electro Ball might have some merit on Raichu-A, because of its blistering speed.

 

[Yveltal for PU]

I’ll be honest it’s not exactly too similar but I’d rather Frantic Fusions get a thread over this.

Feel a little bad for dissing Symbiomons like that since I have an idea for a meta that is very similar to it.


Mix & Megamons
That’s right, it’s a mix & mega-type thing. Mix & Megamons allows you to put any fully-evolved Pokemon into another fully-evolved Pokemon's Item slot, as a mega stone. The mega stone stats are determined by the Item slot Pokemon's stats (except HP)/3, rounded down. The ability is the primary ability, and the type is of course the primary type. No moves/height/weight are gained. So if had a Pokemon that was holding a Victini as the mega stone, it would get +33 in all stats except HP, Victory Star, and gain the Psychic Typing.

And of course, you cant put something like Mega Metagross, Zygarde-Complete, or other formes like that in the moveslot. While not all broken, it also doesnt always make too much sense.

Threats 'n bans:
Wonder Guard, Huge/Pure Power, probably Shadow Tag/Arena Trap, all that normal ability banned fun stuff.

Really any Pokemon with exceptionally high stats can make for a good mega stone.

Questions:
Ban ubers as Item slot Pokemon?
Should a move or 2 be gained through the mega evolution?
Should weight be added?
Is this stupid lol.