Metagame Workshop

[hiei-q]

I thought if it was possible to create a metagame where you can only use one species of pokemon on your team, but I realize that without adding some complex rules, it woudn’t be interesting or fun to play, so I came up with this pet mod instead.

3v3 Monobattles

Pet Mod premise: the first three and the last three of the pokemon on your team must belong to the same evolution chain. There is no species clause, so you can use the same pokemon on an entire trio if you want, but all pokemon must be named differently. After you select your first pokemon on team preview, you will play with the trio he belongs to in a 3v3 battle. Pokemon will be treated as if they have multitype, and they will share abilities with their 2 partners during the battle.

Rules:

• Two pokemon will be in the same evolution chain if one of their evolution base stages is the same, regarding forms. This means for example that you can have vaporeon and flaeron on the same trio, or both ninetales forms. You can also have for example both tornadus forms as well, or three different rotom forms. Shedinja will be considered in the same evolution chain as nincada and ninjask.
• If I am not wrong, the ability multitype is hardcoded to Arceus, however it woudn’t be impossible to code a similar effect in every pokemon. Pokemon will adjust their typing according to the plate or z crystal they are holding (if any), and they won’t be able to lose their plate/z crystal due to knock off, trick, etc. This effect won’t prevent the pokemon to lose/change their ability the same way multitype does. If a pokemon transforms, then its own plate won’t determine its typing.
• A pokemon that changed its typing due to a “multitype” effect will be remarked with the type he changed to. However, if the player selects that pokemon he will know what current typing it posses.
• The sharing ability mechanic will work the same way as it does in shared power. Every pokemon in your trio will have available the abilities of the rest of the trio. If a pokemon faints, you still will get his ability, but if it mega evolves, then you will only get the ability of the mega. Any hardcoded ability like battle bond or wonder guard won’t be shared to the rest of the trio.

I selected a “multitype” system to determine typings rather than a “camomons” one because I wanted to give an advantage to trios that naturally get different typings forcing other trios to use a plate to obtain so. The ability mechanic was added in order to promote variety and balance, allowing some pokemon with diverse abilities match powerhouses with few abilities, great stats and a huge move pool. I also selected a “shared power” effect rather than a “pokebilities” one in order to give more opportunities to teams that rely on different species.



Banlist: Since this pet mod is very restrictive, it will have a banlist quite different from OU. The main changes are Deoxys-S, Deoxys-D, Aegislash, Darkrai, Genesect, Kanghaskanite and Metagrossite Unbans, Multiscale, Flygon, Gothielle, Kyurem-W and Toxapex Bans. Species Clause is removed and it is allowed to use trapping abilities with the cost of some of the strongest abusers being banned in the process. In case Dugtrio or Wobbufeet- based teams are considered broken or unhealthy, then this decision can be reverted. I decided also to ban focus sash since it might became a bit overcentralizing taking into account that entry hazards woudn’t be very common or effective in this pet mod and many frail mons can became really problematic if they can’t be revenged killed due to a focus sash.

Pokemon Banlist

Mewtwo, Lugia, Ho-Oh, Blaziken, Flygon (or trapinch), Groudon, Kyogre, Rayquaza, Deoxys-N, Deoxys-A, Dialga, Palkia, Giratina, Giratina-O, Arceus, Gothitelle, Shaymin-S, Kyurem-W, Kyurem-B, Landorus-I, Zekrom, Reshiram, Xerneas, Yveltal, Toxapex, Lunala, Solgaleo, Necrozma-DM, Necrozma-DW, Marshadow and Naganadel.

Item Banlist

Focus sash, Gengarite, Salamencite, Lucarionite

Ability Banlist

Power Construct, Multiscale

Move Banlist

Baton Pass

CLAUSES

Sleep Clause, Evasion Clause, Moody Clause, Endless Battle Clause, OHKO Clause and Trace Clause: any pokemon won’t get Trace as a shared ability.

Threatening trios: Dugtrio/Alola dugtrio (arena trap), some eevee- based trios (quick feet+guts, magic bounce, immunity-based abilities, adaptability+pixilate), Mew, Jirachi, Tyranitar and other pokemon with overall good stats and great movepool, Darkrai, Metagross, Kanghaskan (Scrappy+parental bond), Charizard (Drought + Solar Power), Politoed/Poliwrath (Swift Swim + Drizzle), Mawile, Intimidate + Moxie trios (Salamence, Gyarados, etc.), Heracross (skill link, guts, moxie and swarm), Ninjask/Shedinja (Speed boost “multitype” Shedinja), Deoxys S/D, Wobbuffeet, Tornadus T/I, Lati@s (Boltbeam stab + Levitate), Porygon (Boltbeam stab, Download, Analytic and adaptability), Ursaring (quick feet, guts and Honeey Gather, jk.), Ambimpoon and Cincinno (Skill Link + Technician), and Genesect.

Questions for the Community:

• Do you think the rules implemented are fine? Would you prefer other mechanics from being added? Could something be done in order to keep the Monobattle main idea intact without letting it became a pet mod or making it a boring metagame to play?
• What do you think about shadow tag and arena trap unbans?
• Do you find a pokemon banworthy or unhealthy for the pet mod?
• Do you find this idea too much matchup-based? If so, could this problem be solved by being more/less restrictive with the banlist? (Banning many OU pokemon or allowing ubers for example)
• Do you think any submission phase may be required to strengthen the pet mod? (Adding moves, abilities, items, effects, etc.)

Thank you for reading.

 

[Gravity Monkey]

Banlist: Since this pet mod is very restrictive, it will have a banlist quite different from OU. The main changes are Deoxys-S, Deoxys-D, Aegislash, Darkrai, Genesect, Kanghaskanite and Metagrossite Unbans, Multiscale, Flygon, Gothielle, Kyurem-W and Toxapex Bans. Species Clause is removed and it is allowed to use trapping abilities with the cost of some of the strongest abusers being banned in the process. In case Dugtrio or Wobbufeet- based teams are considered broken or unhealthy, then this decision can be reverted. I decided also to ban focus sash since it might became a bit overcentralizing taking into account that entry hazards woudn’t be very common or effective in this pet mod and many frail mons can became really problematic if they can’t be revenged killed due to a focus sash.

Who cares about arena trap/shadow tag if you can't switch? Maybe there's something I didn't understand...

 

[hiei-q]

Who cares about arena trap/shadow tag if you can't switch? Maybe there's something I didn't understand...

Sorry if it wasn't clear. The format is 3v3 singles (not triples) so you are allowed to switch. The difficult using arena trap is that you must use pokemon in the same evolution chain (or different forms), so for example if you want to use a dugtrio then you will have two use other dugtrios/alola dugtrios, and that kind of trio can easily be overpowered by many trios, so they might not be a mayor problem. However, a team full of gothitelles, or a team with two flygons can be a mayor issue due to their better stats, good movepool and their trapping abilities (flygon gets arena trap from trapinch, since the pokemon in the same trio share their abilities).

 

[urkerab]

Single Typed​

Metagame Premisse: All Pokémon lose their secondary type

Should be live on ROM now.

 

[Berlin Arcanine]

Boom is back
Premise: Explosion has 500 base power(just like it used to) and every mon gets it!
Potential Threats and metagame predictions: Ninjask and Crobat have a really fast Explosion. Gengar and other ghost types become very common since their immune to Explosion. This makes Pursuit Tyranitar and Pursuit Weavile very strong since they remove ghosts. Magnezone becomes very wide spread thanks to his abbility to trap pesky steels like skarmory which can survive boom at full hp. Special attackers like Tapu koko can lure walls like chansey and than precede to remove them thanks to their new tool. The metagame is very offensive with less focus on balance playstyle and hazards.
Ruleset: Ou banlist+Smogon clauses, 6v6 with team preview
Questions: Do you like the idea? What issues do you see with this metagame? Do you think a 3v3 or battle spot version of this metagame would improve the fast pace even more?

 

[Gojiratar]

Boom is back
Premise: Explosion has 500 base power(just like it used to) and every mon gets it!
Potential Threats and metagame predictions: Ninjask and Crobat have a really fast Explosion. Gengar and other ghost types become very common since their immune to Explosion. This makes Pursuit Tyranitar and Pursuit Weavile very strong since they remove ghosts. Magnezone becomes very wide spread thanks to his abbility to trap pesky steels like skarmory which can survive boom at full hp. Special attackers like Tapu koko can lure walls like chansey and than precede to remove them thanks to their new tool. The metagame is very offensive with less focus on balance playstyle and hazards.
Ruleset: Ou banlist+Smogon clauses, 6v6 with team preview
Questions: Do you like the idea? What issues do you see with this metagame? Do you think a 3v3 or battle spot version of this metagame would improve the fast pace even more?

Buffing just one move doesn't seem interesting as an OM at all.

 

[hiei-q]

Boom is back
Premise: Explosion has 500 base power(just like it used to) and every mon gets it!
Potential Threats and metagame predictions: Ninjask and Crobat have a really fast Explosion. Gengar and other ghost types become very common since their immune to Explosion. This makes Pursuit Tyranitar and Pursuit Weavile very strong since they remove ghosts. Magnezone becomes very wide spread thanks to his abbility to trap pesky steels like skarmory which can survive boom at full hp. Special attackers like Tapu koko can lure walls like chansey and than precede to remove them thanks to their new tool. The metagame is very offensive with less focus on balance playstyle and hazards.
Ruleset: Ou banlist+Smogon clauses, 6v6 with team preview
Questions: Do you like the idea? What issues do you see with this metagame? Do you think a 3v3 or battle spot version of this metagame would improve the fast pace even more?

I suggest that every pokemon get explosion as fifth move instead of just allow them to have it. Essentially, it gives every pokemon a selfdestruct devise. You can also buff it even more by increasing the priority to +3 or something like that, so bulky and slow pokemon can say goodbye in a cool way when they are low in hp, although that will remove the niche in fast exploders.

Consider pokemon with -ate abilities in the threat list, they get a 600 bp stab attack.

 

[AquaticPanic]

Single Typed​

Metagame Premisse: All Pokémon lose their secondary type

Potential Threats:

All the 3 listed above have a nieche - They are the only Flying-Types in the meta. Being all able to dish out decent damage against the likes of Mega Venusaur and Tangrowth, they are interesting options to consider

Due to sharing the same stats, and now the same type, the only thing really differing them is the move they get. They also plagiarize Eelektross in being electric + Levitate, granting them no weaknesses as long as Mold Breaker isn't a factor (Specially since Zygarde now lost STAB on Thousand Arrows).

With a much better defensive type, wide pool and good mixed stats, Kyurem ramps up in viability. It's not that slow, has useful resistances, and doesn't mind it's weaknesses as much (Only 9 Fairy-Types, of which only Clefable, Sylveon and Florges are worth something. Mono-Ice wouldn't be run that much either, tho it's a more common coverage). Kyurem seems very versatile overall and will probably be used a lot more


I'll update this post later with some mons that were nerfed too. For now, this is all

Upon reviewing this, I have a few adjustments to make

Bans: Kyurem-Black, Spectral Thief
Unbans: Aegislash, Genesect, Naganadel, Pheromosa, Marshadow, Solgaleo

Any other suggestions before I oficially submit this?

 

[Brodaha]

AquaticPanic I have a few questions about the metagame.
-Is Aegislash really worth an unban? It actually loses a weakness, and while it also loses 2 immunities, it resists one still.
-Why ban Spectral Thief when you can just keep Marshadow banned? It just becomes a move to steal stats without STAB.
-Why unban Naganadel? It still has great coverage, nasty plot, and beast boost.

 

[AquaticPanic]

AquaticPanic I have a few questions about the metagame.
-Is Aegislash really worth an unban? It actually loses a weakness, and while it also loses 2 immunities, it resists one still.
-Why ban Spectral Thief when you can just keep Marshadow banned? It just becomes a move to steal stats without STAB.
-Why unban Naganadel? It still has great coverage, nasty plot, and beast boost.

- Aegi will be at a test of some sorts. If it's too op, I will keep it banned when making the oficial post

- Marshadow itself is fine. Fure fighting type makes it way less of a threat - if the thing that makes it worrysome is spectral thief, than that's what should be banned

- Poison is a terrible offensive type. Losing STAB on Dragon makes it hit way less hard, and the coverage it has, while good, doesn't particularly break it

 

[hiei-q]

Hunter or haunted

Metagame premise: Every attacking move has the added effect of draining 50% of the damage dealt, this effect stacks with normal draining moves and big root.

For example, giga drain will restore 100% of the damage dealt, and 130% if the pokemon is equipped with big root. Brave bird will restore 50% of the damage, and then it will recoil 33% back.

Bans: current OU banlist and clauses + heal block. Life orb might be suspected since the draining effect nullifies the hp lost, and if a pokemon lost some hp it will feed a bit less the opponent. Uber glass cannons can be suspected back (Deo-N, Pheromosa and maybe even deo-A if life orb is banned), the reason is that the wont benefit too much from the healing effect since they will only be healled to full health in order to get OHKO and feed the opponent. Belly drum might also be suspected (sub + salac+ belly drum might be very good).


Potential threats: both tentacruel and swalot will be quite good because of liquid ooze, not only they will prevent other pokemon from getting draining recovery but they will also damage them, they are specially good at stopping weakened sweepers from steamrolling your team. Tentacruel probably has more offensive presence while swalot is a bit bulkier and has pain split, both of them can be stopped by magic guard psychic types or be lured easily. Bulky offense might be the best playstyle, those pokemon will tank some hits so they will not feed the opponent too much and they will hit back hard, healing themselves and preventing them from being worn down. Some examples are magearna, landorus-t, mega gyarados, zygarde, dragonite and heatran. Sweepers like volcarona are also a mayor threat since they can restore most of their hp back after setting up, preventing them from being revenge-killed back easily.

Other strats and some gimmicks: bulky volturn styles might be quite good, since you hit and gain momentum while healing back from stealth rock damage. Gale wings is also back, however you have to be carefull since recoil might prevent you from being at full hp, since it factores after the draining effect. lv1 aron doesn't need heal bell anymore, so you can equip him with leftovers to heal back from SR and stall with toxic + protect. Rock polish golem: boost speed and then hit back, sturdy will give you another attack if you heal back to full, if you are going to get Ko'ed, just explode and your opponent won't heal back!

Questions for the community: Do you like the name? Do you find a pokemon, item or ability banworthy? Do you think hyper offense/offense will be decent?

 

[AquaticPanic]

Does Comfey get priority in every move? It would be hilarious for such a forgotten thing to get +3 Priority everything

 

[hiei-q]

Does Comfey get priority in every move? It would be hilariois for such a forgotten thing to get +3 Priority everything

O yeah, i thought on that but i completly forgot to add it into the post!

 

[SadisticMystic]

Why would a L1 Aron or Togedemaru be content with "Toxic/Protect stalling" when they can use the format rules as a free, improved version of Shell Bell to Endeavor stuff down, while preventing the opponent from gaining back more than 5 HP at a time from drain?

 

[drfrankenbaum]

"X" value to be determined


Budget Battles​

Premise- In most normal battles, pokemon have an item, an ability, 4 moves, a beneficial nature, 6 IV numbers, and 6 EV categories in which to invest. In Budget Battles, you may only choose "X" of these 18 (19 if "no ability" is capable of being implemented easily)opportunities to improve your pokemon.

Potential threats/Bans/Unbans-due to the nature of the format, BST and typing are the only things a pokemon is guaranteed to have(moves too lol, but you get the point)
BST threats-Right off the top, I think many ubers have to go from sheer BST dominance standpoint. I ran a couple calcs vs normal arceus with 0IV/0EV Def-SPDef-HP and a neutral nature, and its unsurprisingly stubborn:

offensive calcs at X=5

252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 300-354 (85.7 - 101.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Blacephalon Mind Blown vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 376-445 (107.4 - 127.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Just saying "no ubers" does not feel correct, however, since things like blaziken NEED its ability and want an item badly, which could tax it into being irrelevant. Next, things like chansey(1 or 2 really high stat{s}) are still solid, but budgeting means softboiled, toxic, eviolite, and Def investments takes it to X=5 pretty quick.

Typing threats-Pokemon with fewer weaknesses, or many resistances/immunities are likely to shine in this format, due to the likelihood of teams not having a large diversity of attacking types. Pokemon like scizor or ferrothorn could be a monster if your opponent has no fire moves. Steel/poison types blanking opposing toxics could completely render a foe useless(like the chansey above).

Unbans-All 6 of the pokemon above arceus in BST use an item to achieve that stat #, depending on the value of X, these MIGHT be safe to allow into the mix.

Questions for the community- Assuming the format has any potential, what number should X be? Too high and its just pokemon with embargo in effect, or everyone is "intimidated". Too low and you run the risk of people getting shedinjaed out of games(I think this is actually enjoyable, a loss is a loss, so it rewards better teambuilding).

Does anything jump out at you as banworthy, regardless of X?

Lastly, I have two questions for those who do the setup to make these showdown playable(or anyone knowledgeable on the topic). In the premise I mention that I would like abilities to be blank as default, is that easy to implement? Depending on the answer, pokemon with "no ability" to start who mega evolve, any way to keep them from gaining the new ability too?

 

[hiei-q]

Why would a L1 Aron or Togedemaru be content with "Toxic/Protect stalling" when they can use the format rules as a free, improved version of Shell Bell to Endeavor stuff down, while preventing the opponent from gaining back more than 5 HP at a time from drain?

They need protect and leftovers to gain 1 hp the turn they switch in if rocks are up. Then they can spam endeavor. Toxic is just a common filler.

 

[chartung17]

"X" value to be determined


Budget Battles​

Premise- In most normal battles, pokemon have an item, an ability, 4 moves, a beneficial nature, 6 IV numbers, and 6 EV categories in which to invest. In Budget Battles, you may only choose "X" of these 18 (19 if "no ability" is capable of being implemented easily)opportunities to improve your pokemon.

Potential threats/Bans/Unbans-due to the nature of the format, BST and typing are the only things a pokemon is guaranteed to have(moves too lol, but you get the point)
BST threats-Right off the top, I think many ubers have to go from sheer BST dominance standpoint. I ran a couple calcs vs normal arceus with 0IV/0EV Def-SPDef-HP and a neutral nature, and its unsurprisingly stubborn:

offensive calcs at X=5

252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 300-354 (85.7 - 101.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Blacephalon Mind Blown vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 376-445 (107.4 - 127.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Just saying "no ubers" does not feel correct, however, since things like blaziken NEED its ability and want an item badly, which could tax it into being irrelevant. Next, things like chansey(1 or 2 really high stat{s}) are still solid, but budgeting means softboiled, toxic, eviolite, and Def investments takes it to X=5 pretty quick.

Typing threats-Pokemon with fewer weaknesses, or many resistances/immunities are likely to shine in this format, due to the likelihood of teams not having a large diversity of attacking types. Pokemon like scizor or ferrothorn could be a monster if your opponent has no fire moves. Steel/poison types blanking opposing toxics could completely render a foe useless(like the chansey above).

Unbans-All 6 of the pokemon above arceus in BST use an item to achieve that stat #, depending on the value of X, these MIGHT be safe to allow into the mix.

Questions for the community- Assuming the format has any potential, what number should X be? Too high and its just pokemon with embargo in effect, or everyone is "intimidated". Too low and you run the risk of people getting shedinjaed out of games(I think this is actually enjoyable, a loss is a loss, so it rewards better teambuilding).

Does anything jump out at you as banworthy, regardless of X?

Lastly, I have two questions for those who do the setup to make these showdown playable(or anyone knowledgeable on the topic). In the premise I mention that I would like abilities to be blank as default, is that easy to implement? Depending on the answer, pokemon with "no ability" to start who mega evolve, any way to keep them from gaining the new ability too?

I don't know whether "no ability" would be easy or even possible to implement, but you could just change it to "no useful ability" - for instance, allow every Pokémon to have the ability Illuminate (which has no effect in battle), and make Illuminate not count as an ability when budgeting.

 

[CoolMan6001]

"X" value to be determined


Budget Battles​

Premise- In most normal battles, pokemon have an item, an ability, 4 moves, a beneficial nature, 6 IV numbers, and 6 EV categories in which to invest. In Budget Battles, you may only choose "X" of these 18 (19 if "no ability" is capable of being implemented easily)opportunities to improve your pokemon.

Potential threats/Bans/Unbans-due to the nature of the format, BST and typing are the only things a pokemon is guaranteed to have(moves too lol, but you get the point)
BST threats-Right off the top, I think many ubers have to go from sheer BST dominance standpoint. I ran a couple calcs vs normal arceus with 0IV/0EV Def-SPDef-HP and a neutral nature, and its unsurprisingly stubborn:

offensive calcs at X=5

252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 300-354 (85.7 - 101.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Blacephalon Mind Blown vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 376-445 (107.4 - 127.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Just saying "no ubers" does not feel correct, however, since things like blaziken NEED its ability and want an item badly, which could tax it into being irrelevant. Next, things like chansey(1 or 2 really high stat{s}) are still solid, but budgeting means softboiled, toxic, eviolite, and Def investments takes it to X=5 pretty quick.

Typing threats-Pokemon with fewer weaknesses, or many resistances/immunities are likely to shine in this format, due to the likelihood of teams not having a large diversity of attacking types. Pokemon like scizor or ferrothorn could be a monster if your opponent has no fire moves. Steel/poison types blanking opposing toxics could completely render a foe useless(like the chansey above).

Unbans-All 6 of the pokemon above arceus in BST use an item to achieve that stat #, depending on the value of X, these MIGHT be safe to allow into the mix.

Questions for the community- Assuming the format has any potential, what number should X be? Too high and its just pokemon with embargo in effect, or everyone is "intimidated". Too low and you run the risk of people getting shedinjaed out of games(I think this is actually enjoyable, a loss is a loss, so it rewards better teambuilding).

Does anything jump out at you as banworthy, regardless of X?

Lastly, I have two questions for those who do the setup to make these showdown playable(or anyone knowledgeable on the topic). In the premise I mention that I would like abilities to be blank as default, is that easy to implement? Depending on the answer, pokemon with "no ability" to start who mega evolve, any way to keep them from gaining the new ability too?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that just a variation of

• Budgetmons: The total base stat in your team must not exceed X/The total value of your team must not exceed X, with individual Pokemon being assigned values like this: [insert rule here].

 

[drfrankenbaum]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that just a variation of

One of the only things I'm NOT budgeting is BST lol.

 

[CoolMan6001]

One of the only things I'm NOT budgeting is BST lol.

I meant the part about the value exceeding X, not the BST part.

 

[mt0101]

Hi, I often play OMs for fun in the random formats or versus the bot, and I came up with a couple that I think would be fun, interesting, and easy to code.

PrioriSTAB

Metagame Premise: All Pokemon receive +1 priority, additive, on any moves that match either of their types. This simple change completely upends the meta, taking the defining aspect of Pokemon matchups from speed tiers to type matchups--Fully offensively EVd Landorus beats Tapu Koko in this meta, for example, as neither of its +1 priority stabs can kill Lando before it OHKOS with +1 prio Earthquake. Based on OU/OU clauses

Potential Bans and Threats: -Tapu Lele is the only thing that comes to mind for a possible quickban, as Psychic Terrain making everything on the field unable to use basically any STAB could get centralizing/put us into Terrain Wars the meta real quick. On the flip side, Lele's own offensive potential is essentially neutered because of PTerrain, making it kind of dead weight, and you of course have to make your teambuilding very synergized to make things work without having PrioriSTABs of your own. Bruxish, Tsareena, and usage of Psychic Terrain/Z-Psychic Terrain as a utility move on offensive/defensive Pokemon sets may all be more viable than it.

- Chansey/Blissey get a gigantic buff as their Soft-Boiled and Wish both act at +1 priority, making them very difficult to wear down through the battle if you don't have a STAB that two-hits them. With many powerful setup sweepers no longer caring about speed, they may end up being a defensive necessity! Remember to bring a Close Combat user!

-Porygon-Z's Z-Conversion coming at +1 priority gives a huge boost to it--the only way to prevent it from setting up successfully now is to have a STAB that OHKO's it. Thank god Chansey/Blissey exist.

-Bruxish/Tsareena ; speak of the devil, these two gen 7 newcomers would almost certainly be S-Rank offensive pivots as they are immune to anything's STAB attacks, and more interestingly for the meta yet the offtypes needed to take them down are completely different! Bruxish has SD and taunt to attempt a sweep while Tsareena can Synthesis off weaker offtype hits--either one of these two could end up banworthy depending on how the meta plays out.

-Amoonguss/Breloom: Yep, priority sleep is going to be a thing. On the other hand, there are many many viable offensive priority users that can outspeed and threaten these two with their STABs, but you'll need to watch for them all the same.

-In general, offensive threats will be the Pokemon with good abilities/attacking stats/STABs that were once held back by speed, and Pokemon that were already strong and fast that were generally good at using their non-STAB attacks. (The Latis come to mind).

-Potential unbans: As Speed is no longer arguably the most important stat in this meta, and priority is now universal, some of the frailer/weaker Ubers mons that were too much for OU due to speed tier or a combination of speed tier and difficulty to revenge kill could be unbanned from the start. E.g., Pheromosa, Naganadel, M-Blaziken, and potentially M-Lucario.

Other tidbits:

Hide

-Psychic types get priority Calm Mind, Skill Swap, screens, Rest, Healing Wish, and Cosmic Power--lots of potential gimmicks.

-Fighting types get priority Bulk Up.

-Poison types get priority Coil and priority TSpike setting.

-Bugs get priority Quiver Dance, priority Webs, and can always pivot safely with U-Turn on an off-type move from the opponent. Lunge on Araquanid may see use.

-Rock types can set rocks regardless of speed.

-Normal types get priority Belly Drum (!!!), Recover/Slack Off/Soft-Boiled/Milk Drink, Wish, Stockpile, Pain Split

-Electric types get prio Volt Switch (see Bug). Electrify Helioptile might be a thing.

-Dark types get Taunt, Snatch, Parting Shot, Memento, Snarl/Knock Off, and for Malamar Topsy-Turvy

-Grass types get priority Spore, Leech Seed, Synthesis.

-STAB Bounce/Fly/Dig/Dive users will be interesting, if gimmicky.

- + 1 P R I O R I T Y A U R O R A V E I L

Questions for the Community:
-Are you interested in this meta to the point of it being playable? I know that there were definitely probably some "Gale Wings Palace" OMs back in Gen 5, but the main meta has changed so much that STABs receiving priority could be explored again.

-Would Tapu Lele/Bruxish/Tsareena be centralizing/unfun to the point of needing a ban at the start? or will people be able to adapt with, say, things like CM BoltBeam Latias?

-Are there any other important threats or game-breaking mon I may be missing? What exciting and previously unexplored Pokemon or gameplans could people make use of in this meta?

-What is your opinion on potential Ubers unbans?

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Abil-Items

Metagame Premise:
Any Pokemon may either give up their standard ability for an extra held item, written in the ability slot, or may "hold" an ability of their choice to gain its effects. (ONE OPTION ONLY.) For simplicity's sake, items written in the ability slot are not affected by either item- or ability-manipulating moves like Trick/Knock Off/Gastro Acid, and the same for abilities in the item slot--they're like mega stones. They otherwise work normally, however, so Air Balloon for example pops on hit and held Levitate is still ignored by Mold Breaker.

This premise came about from the old way the Dual Wielding/Multibility OMs were coded, where you had to trade your ability for the extra item or vice versa.

Potential Bans and Threats:
-Based on OU meta
-Dual Item Clause: A Pokemon cannot put another of its same Held Item into its ability slot.
-Double Choice Clause: A Pokemon may not use its ability slot to hold a Choice Scarf in combination with a Choice Band/Specs. This eliminates one of the biggest drawbacks of choice items in standard in the first place (lack of power on Scarf/speed on specs/band) and overcentralizes the meta around this combo.
-Dual Ability Clause: You may have at max one copy of a given ability between the held item slots of your party. (So Electric Surge Tapu Koko @ Levitate and Xurkitree @ Electric Surge would be fine, but two @ Electric Surge Pokemon would not.)
-Starting Ability Banlist (Only banned from BEING HELD): Wonder Guard, Water Bubble, Fur Coat, Fluffy, Huge/Pure Power, Parental Bond, Shadow Tag/Arena Trap, Moody, Simple, Speed Boost, Imposter
-Additional Banned Pokemon: Slaking, Regigigas
-Shedinja @ Sturdy (with held abilities not able to be knocked off this would make the meta BH lite)

Obviously this meta would be one with loooooooads of variation in sets but the above is the simplest starting banlist I could come up with. The only immediate problems:
-Band/Specs + Life Orb : This combination was quickbanned from Dual Weilding in its thread because offensive threats could become unmanagable to wall or switch into. I am heavily in favor of banning this combo as it straight up outclasses even held offensive abilities on many mons that already had an offensive ability in standard and believe it would lead to overcentralization, but I am open to discussion on it.
-Held Tinted Lens and Stakeout: Though you have to give up Band/Specs, Orb, AV, or a Z-Move on an offensive Pokemon to use them, these abilities have proven problematic in other "choose an ability" formats. I suppose only time will tell!


The opportunities, given that the choice between 2 items and 2 abilities is balanced properly, are endless!
So what's viable?
-Lots of held immunities, and lots of held Mold Breaker/Teravolt/Turboblaze to combat this.
-Weakness Policy + resist berry/focus sash
-Held Sturdy is a straight upgrade from regular Focus Sash
-Pokemon held back by or not improved upon by their abilities (Archeops, Golisopod, Weavile) or that don't rely on them to sweep or perform their role (Garchomp, Celesteela, Mew, Zapdos, Victini, Zygarde, Gengar, Crobat, Celebi)
-Toxapex can now, at the cost of Regenerator, hold both Black Sludge and Leftovers. Uh-oh.

Questions for the community:
-How will/should items in the ability slot work with a mega evolution? Would they be lost or not? This greatly affects the viability of megas.
-Is the complexity of this meta enough to be interesting while not being unmanagable?
-How does the starting banlist look to you? Too much, not enough? Anything I missed?
-With the power of held abilities, is holding two items a balanced option for no ability with double choice off the table? What about Choice + LO?
-What would you be most excited to use in this metagame?

 

[Theorymon]

So I was told to post this here from the discord back in May, but I've held off to wait for more information about Let's Go. Info is slow (though we are getting some sort of video tomorrow), so I just wanted to spitball this with you guys! Also, note that while it doesn't seem like I have any posts here, I do have 18 posts back in the old OM forum, (19 if you count this one). Not sure if that counts though!

Metagame: Let's Go Speculate!

Metagame premise

This format's goal is to emulate what we know of Pokemon Let's Go Pikachu, and Pokemon Let's Go Eevee's ruleset as much as we can. This means only the original 151 Pokemon are allowed (Alolan formes are allowed since they're confirmed for Let's Go), no mega stones, and potentially, Pikachu may have modified stats (more on that later!)

Potential bans and threats

Ok let's address the elephant in the room: I don't think many people want to play this format if Mewtwo is allowed. Mewtwo's base stats are FAR beyond anything else from gen 1, and it has such a crazy ass movepool that there really isn't a hard "check" to it. Even the most touted one, Alolan Muk, actually can lose to bulky Will-O-Wisp Mewtwo sets, and more gimicky Bulk Up ones with Earthquake!

As for the other thing people often think of when it comes to bans, Mew is one I think there may be some debate on. With the lower general stats of gen 1 mons, Mew's base 100s all around are quite a bit more powerful than usual. I'm not really sure there's actually many good Kanto checks to Mew since the usual "use Alolan Muks" for Psychic-types is something Mew has many ways around (such as physically offensive sets with Earthquake, bulky Will-O-Wisp sets, etc). However, it's stats are at least much more reasonable than Mewtwo's, so this might be reasonable to at least test a bit before saying it deserves the ban hammer. It'd also be another viable Stealth Rocker, which may be a big deal for some people because the pool of Pokemon that learn that in this metagame is VERY tiny! I'm curious to hear what other people think though!

As for other threats, I'll describe 10 of them in shorter terms! Any of you who have played Gamefreak's Kanto Classic last gen may find some of these pretty familiar, since this format from my really limited experience, shares a lot of qualities.

Dragonite: With Multiscale and Dragon Dance, Dragonite is one of the premier set-up sweepers in Let's Go Speculate! It's easy to set up when Stealth Rock is off the field, and there's only two potentially good Fairy-types in this metagame. However, Clefable at the very least is likely to be very prominent, which is a big issue for Dragonite.

Snorlax: I remember people arguing this was the king of Kanto Classic, and I imagine it'll be even better thanks to actually having items and Gluttony + Figy Berry! Curse Snorlax is pretty hard to break through for most Pokemon, and its a great special tank overall.

Clefable: With Unaware, Clefable does a great job of stopping dangerous set-up sweepers such as Gyarados and Dragonite. It's also the only good defensive Fairy-type in this metagame, and among the few valuable Pokemon that can set up Stealth Rock!

Alolan Muk: When it comes to blasting Fairy and Psychic-types, I don't think it gets much better than Alolan Muk! In particular if you need to get rid of Alakazam, or can't afford for Starmie to keep getting away from Gengar to keep its Rapid Spin a threat, Alolan Muk can just trap em with Pursuit!

Zapdos: Zapdos is the best Defogger you can ask for in this metagame! It's got just enough bulk to tank some of the weaker Pokemon, and has instant recovery in the form of Roost. It can do more than that though. Since Gen 1 is pretty constricted in terms of good Electric-types, Zapdos is also argubly the best offensive one as well, outspeeding prominent set up sweepers (since 100 is a pretty nice speed tier here) such as Dragonite and Gyarados, and having a great SpA stat everyone forgets about!

Gyarados: Gyarados is likely to be a good alternative Dragon Dancer to Dragonite. It may not have Multiscale, but Intimidate is still very helpful for setting up. It also doesn't have that exploitable 4x Ice weakness (unless you get hit by Alolan Ninetale's Freeze Dry!). Most of all though, it happens to have Taunt, which can at least allow it to wear down Clefable (especially if using more defensive rest talk sets).

Chansey: The emporess of special walls is epescially nasty in a metagame with such a lower power level compared to what its used to! Chansey is a Pokemon that usually requires physical boosters or Machamp to break through. When it comes to Special Attackers, its basically Calm Mind Psyshock shenigans, Gengar using Substitute... and not much else!

Machamp: Oh yeah speaking of Machamp, this is by far the best Fighting-type in this metagame if Kanto Classic is any indication. It's a great check against Snorlax and Chansey, and while Fairy-types suck for it as usual, it can at least deal good damage to Clefable with Poison Jab. Dynamic Punch is also extremely annoying as usual!

Nidoking: Sheer Force and a crazy movepool make Nidoking a dangerous special attacker, especially since Clefable struggles against it. Nidoking is also among the few viable offensive Stealth Rock setters in this metagame, something that doesn't really exist outside of the Golems and funnily enough, Nidoqueen, and those guys are pretty slow compared to Nidoking!

Starmie: Starmie is the Rapid Spinner of choice, thanks to it blasting the two potential spin blockers, Gengar and Alolan Marowak, with its STABs! It isn't as powerful or fast as Alakazam, but 100 base Special Attack is actually quite alright considering the reduced power level in this metagame compared to fuller formats. Just don't expect it to be breaking any walls like Snorlax or Chansey!

Questions for the community

1: How faithfully should we adapt to Pokemon Let's Go annoucements?

To be clear, the entire point behind this metagame is that its a fun way to past the 4th month wait for the first Pokemon Nintendo Switch games by trying to have a format as close to what we know of it as possible. But fact is, I doubt we'll have everything right. We have no idea what tutors there are, if transfers or hidden abilities are in the game, and of course, the new Pokemon that's being added to the game.

I think it's fine if we don't get everything right, this is more of a fun, speculative OM to keep us occupied till the real game comes out. However, there's totally a chance Gamefreak may announce surprsing things that have an affect on this metagame. For example, what if Gamefreak shocks us, and abilities and items are confirmed NOT to be in the game? (For the record, Natures and the usual stat system are at least confirmed for Let's Go). Or what if Mega Evolutions are in the game, and Gamefreak was misleading us about the avaliable Pokemon? These are dramatic metagame shake up that we're not in control of at all, which is very unsual for an OM.

Personally, I think we should stick as true to what we know about Let's Go as possible. Even if it means we get a huge shake up because Gamefreak confirms a weird mechanical change, I think that's ok, we'll just be closer to what the actual metagame of Let's Go will end up being!

EDIT: On the other side of the coin, we could take the opposite approach to confirmations, and only allow stuff thats more explictly likely / confirmed. So for example, we could ban tutor moves, egg moves (breeding is confirmed not to be in, but no one knows about egg moves), items, and abilities until we have more info. Not sure if people want to take that approach, but it's just something I forgot to mention!

2: Should we go towards Smogon's traditional rulesets, or more towards Gamefreak's style of rulesets?

I imagine most of you are assuming I've had 6v6 Singles in mind, and you'd be correct! I'm fine if we go with that, but I should note that we could go more towards how Gamefreak operates. Basically, that'd mean considering rules such as not enforcing Sleep Clause, OHKO clause, or Evasion clause (I imagine there'd be a lot of opposition to that lol), possibly making it 3v3 much like Battle Spot SIngles, or even make it VGC styled (Double battles are confirmed to be in multiplayer).

Like I said, I imagine most people reading this would want the usual 6v6 singles with Smogonish rules, and that's alright, but I figure I should ask this in case people don't want that. Just note, if for any reason a lot of people wanted doubles and there wasn't enough support for a seperate OM, I'd have to change a LOT of what I just wrote up though :P

3: What on earth do we do about Pikachu's new stats?

For those of you who don't know, the starting Pikachu in Let's Go Pikachu has dramatically different stats than a regular Pikachu. Here is an estimate on its base stats (there's more talk about this in the orange island thread).

HP: 50
Atk: 85
Def: 55
SpA: 80
SpD: 65
Spe: 125

(It also learns Double Kick but lol no one is gonna use that)

These aren't exact stats, but one things for sure: this Pikachu would be a HUGE threat! With Light Ball, it damn near 2HKOs anything that isn't Chansey or Snorlax with a specially based set (it can use a physically based set to 2HKO Chansey and Snorlax with Volt Tackle, but the recoil is insane lol). If it gets Surf, it even OHKOs Ground-type checks like Nidoqueen lol. I imagine it'd use a set of Thunderbolt / Hidden Power Ground / Surf (if allowed) or Grass Knot / Volt Takcle (for OHKOign Alakazam) or Volt Switch. Hard to say since there's no way to playtest with this currently, but that crazy speed tier and offenses would make it the premier glass cannon I think!

Oh yeah, Eevee could end up getting a buff as well, but nothing is confirmed about the starter Eevee yet so I think we should just cross that road when we get actual info.

Anyways, I'm not sure how feasible implementing a very specfic Pikachu is JUST for this metagame. It sounds like it'd be more of a pet mod thing since its just a sorta random, out there change Gamefreak made themselves, so that might be an issue. As for the rest of the changes, they're at least consistent with "only allowing what Let's Go will allow", which is described simply as "only Pokemon from the first 151 and their Alolan formes are allowed". If Pikachu is the one sticking point, I don't think it'd kill the point to just ignore it for now despite its potentially big effects, since we don't even have its exact stats, just a range (granted, its a fairly narrow range). Especially since like I said, we aren't gonna get everything right about Pokemon Let's Go!

Oh and before anyone says it, yeah I know there was a rejected "Kanto mons" idea. I can understand if this isn't kosher since its similar on paper, but if I were to give one major thing in Let's Go Speculate's favor over Kanto mons, it's that It's an OM that's built for competitive speculation on an actual format that will exist later this year! The Pokemon Let's Go games are causing quite a lot of ruckus on the internet, with a lot of the more casual fans being insanely hyped, and the more hardcore fans scoffing at it. Having this OM would give us a new avenue of discussion for these new games, and discussion based on playtesting and intelligent speculation instead of just shots in the dark, which I think is a really cool aspect for an OM!

 

[anaconja]

PrioriSTAB

Metagame Premise: All Pokemon receive +1 priority, additive, on any moves that match either of their types. This simple change completely upends the meta, taking the defining aspect of Pokemon matchups from speed tiers to type matchups--Fully offensively EVd Landorus beats Tapu Koko in this meta, for example, as neither of its +1 priority stabs can kill Lando before it OHKOS with +1 prio Earthquake. Based on OU/OU clauses

This sounds like a cool meta. It's similar to Generation 6's Head Start, but works with both types. Another plus is that it benefits both offense and stall, allowing both to be viable playstyles.

Potential Bans and Threats: -Tapu Lele is the only thing that comes to mind for a possible quickban, as Psychic Terrain making everything on the field unable to use basically any STAB could get centralizing/put us into Terrain Wars the meta real quick. On the flip side, Lele's own offensive potential is essentially neutered because of PTerrain, making it kind of dead weight, and you of course have to make your teambuilding very synergized to make things work without having PrioriSTABs of your own. Bruxish, Tsareena, and usage of Psychic Terrain/Z-Psychic Terrain as a utility move on offensive/defensive Pokemon sets may all be more viable than it.

Tapu Lele is a huge boon for stall, as they avoid STAB moves while being fairly unaffected by Psychic Terrain - neither hazards nor recovery moves are blocked. It's probably safe to quickban it.

-In general, offensive threats will be the Pokemon with good abilities/attacking stats/STABs that were once held back by speed, and Pokemon that were already strong and fast that were generally good at using their non-STAB attacks. (The Latis come to mind).

-Potential unbans: As Speed is no longer arguably the most important stat in this meta, and priority is now universal, some of the frailer/weaker Ubers mons that were too much for OU due to speed tier or a combination of speed tier and difficulty to revenge kill could be unbanned from the start. E.g., Pheromosa, Naganadel, M-Blaziken, and potentially M-Lucario.

This isn't exactly true - when everything has priority, the faster mon goes first. Therefore, Ubers will retain the same or gain even more viability.

Abil-Items

Metagame Premise:
Any Pokemon may either give up their standard ability for an extra held item, written in the ability slot, or may "hold" an ability of their choice to gain its effects. (ONE OPTION ONLY.) For simplicity's sake, items written in the ability slot are not affected by either item- or ability-manipulating moves like Trick/Knock Off/Gastro Acid, and the same for abilities in the item slot--they're like mega stones. They otherwise work normally, however, so Air Balloon for example pops on hit and held Levitate is still ignored by Mold Breaker.

This premise came about from the old way the Dual Wielding/Multibility OMs were coded, where you had to trade your ability for the extra item or vice versa.

This is essentially just Dual Wielding and Multibility mashed together. Multibility was already rejected and Dual Wielding is already a meta, so unfortunately combining both metas won't be accepted under:

• OM X and Y are so good: Mashing up two OM concepts to pass off as a new one. (Your om can be similar to another one but it should be a new concept that adds something new or interesting/improves the existing one, assuming the existing one is dead)

 

[drampa's grandpa]

• Metagame premise. Bring 18, choose 6 (similarly to how 1v1 is bring 3 choose 1)
• Potential bans and threats. Particularly flexible mons like Heatran and Lando-T will be even better because they're more difficult to counterteam from team preview. Nothing stands out as needing a ban however.
• Questions for the community.

Would this be excessively time consuming to build for, to the point where it's not worth it?
Would the team preview mingames make it interesting?
My original thought was bring 18 and play three matches picking 6 mons each time for a total of three games. Would this be more fun?

EDIT: Some feedback I received in the om room suggested that fewer Pokemon would be a better option. This sounds good to me; 18 would be a pain to build. What is the sweetspot, and why?

 

[Magii]

• Metagame premise. Bring 18, choose 6 (similarly to how 1v1 is bring 3 choose 1)
• Potential bans and threats. Particularly flexible mons like Heatran and Lando-T will be even better because they're more difficult to counterteam from team preview. Nothing stands out as needing a ban however.
• Questions for the community.

Would this be excessively time consuming to build for, to the point where it's not worth it?
Would the team preview mingames make it interesting?
My original thought was bring 18 and play three matches picking 6 mons each time for a total of three games. Would this be more fun?

EDIT: Some feedback I received in the om room suggested that fewer Pokemon would be a better option. This sounds good to me; 18 would be a pain to build. What is the sweetspot, and why?

Possibly a team of 9, pick 3 (works like Battle Tree/BSS) could work, hits the sweet spot between time it takes to build/still being able to create a team.