Metagame Workshop

drampa's grandpa

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Someone has been asking for Dynamax ideas? Well, I may have just something for you. Say hello to...

KAIJUS & COHORTS

Metagame premise
:

This is essentially a reprise of Gods and Followers, but with a little twist: the first slot will be dedicated to a Dynamax/Gigantamax Pokémon of your choice. Not only this Dynamax Pokémon will have all properties and immunities of Dynamax -- like double HP, Max/GMax Moves and immunities to phazing and weight-based moves -- but it will start Dynamaxed/Gigamaxed and stay Dynamaxed/Gigamaxed throughout the whole match!

However, just like with "Gods and Followers", there are a few restrictions:

- All "cohorts" must share at least a type with the "Kaiju". For example, you could have a Corviknight and Centiskorch with a GMax Charizard, but you wouldn't be able to have a Dracovish or Darmanitan-Galar as cohorts.

- If your "Kaiju" is knocked out, your whole team will be cursed for your blasphemy and fall under a permanent Embargo effect. So you should think twice before exposing your "Kaiju" to needless attacks.

Potential bans and threats:

- Gyarados [Kaiju]: A Pokémon capable of boosting its Speed as much as it wishes with Max Airstream and set up Rain with a potential partner in Dracovish and Barraskewda? Also, getting access to unkillable walls in the form of Toxapex and Corviknight? This doesn't sound broken at all! (/sarcasm)

Questions for the community:

Should the first slot allow Ubers as well? Zacian-Crowned sounds like a pretty nasty "Kaiju" capable of killing other "Kaijus" with Behemoth Blades and with a really good defensive typing -- which gives it access to powerful allies like Corviknight and Clefable -- but Zamazenta(-Crowned) and Eternatus seem a bit more balanced, both in terms of power and in terms of available allies.
I honestly love this. Manages to bring back Gods and Followers (kind of) which is dead cuz almost no ubers while almost managing to bring in a permamax mechanic which isn't (at first glance) overly broken or excessively simplifying (i.e. you have other mons to use other moves so it's not an attacking and Max Guard only meta).

I would love to see this in submissions. I have no idea what will be broken though, besides likely the same sorts of followers/archetypes that were broken in Gods and Followers.

Dynamin:

The dynamax button will now, instead of enlarging your Pokémon for three turns, will shrink your opponent's Pokémon for three turns.

For that time period, all their Pokémon halve their hp and their attacks are treated as if they have a - 1 in the relevant stat.
This seems to have the same in-battle issues Dynamax itself has. It centralizes the battle around three specific turns and how well you use them, and, given that the mechanic would likely promote set-up spam similarly to a much, much, much buffed Memento, the best counter to the use of 'Dynaminning' is to counter with another use to block whatever they setup with and either revenge or attempt to countersweep.

I don't like the idea overall, but since my opinion isn't gospel I'ma say one more thing. if you do decide to move further you'll need to decide if you're going to have the minning target your mon or your opponent. If it targets you: The minning will presumably last three turns or until you switch out and apply to any Pokemon the opponent switches in. If it targets your opponent: It will likely last three turns or until your opponent switches out, but would last if you switch out, potentially allowing you to min-turn.

Overall the second option seems like it would hugely debuff the mechanic to the point of being nearly useless.
This has been coded https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/metagame-workshop.3598275/page-125#post-8150104
I’ve been told it falls under Pet Mod category, is this true? My version has a system of doing things that doesn’t allow for freedom, making it more along the lines of an OM.

Changes:
Fairy -> Normal
Steel -> Rock
Dark -> Normal
Special = (SpA + SpD) / 2
This is kind of an edge case. It's true you're not making a ton of custom changes, and everything you're doing can be quantified by a rule. However you have several different changes based around the theme of putting gen 7 mons in gen 1 which makes it more similar to a pet mod than an OM.

In order for me to see this as an OM I think you'd have to
- get rid of the type changes (IE make stuff like Steelix pure Ground, make stuff like Registeel just not have a type, forget dark -> normal that's subjective af). Turning mons without types into Normal could work if necessary ig but I would prefer a lack of typing because there's nothing really inherent about normal that makes it the 'base type' besides flavor.
- keep the special stat calcs absolutely consistent (IE dont use mons gen 1 special, use their average spa+spd)

overall it seems fun but with a relatively high barrier to entry. I feel like it may compete with certain pet mods (which do something similar) too much.

(Haven't come up with a name yet)
Metagame premise: Types of both pokemon and moves change to the next type alphabetically
Bug -> Dark
Dark -> Dragon
Dragon -> Electric
Electric -> Fairy
Fairy -> Fighting
Fighting -> Fire
Fire -> Flying
Flying -> Ghost
Ghost -> Grass
Grass -> Ground
Ground -> Ice
Ice -> Normal
Normal -> Poison
Poison -> Psychic
Psychic -> Rock
Rock -> Steel
Steel -> Water
Water -> Bug

Questions for the community:
- Should I make it so if a mon is shiny, the order goes backwards?

Also accepting name suggestions
Missed this last time. You should check out this. Also this, which is an older version of the same thing.
 


Hidden Transformation
Welcome to Hidden Transformation! Here the special Hidden Power move has unfortunately been cut. However, its effects live on through this special premise. The Hidden Power type now controls the secondary type of the Pokemon! That's not all however, as the type lets the mon access two more moves of its choice from the type! It's truly a hidden capability! Unfortunately a Hidden Power type only works once for some reason, but that's such a thing that's easily worked around!

If you didn't get it, here's all the relevant metagame stuff:
Premise: Pokemon have their secondary typing replaced with their Hidden Power type, also getting access to two extra moves of that typing of their choice.
A Hidden Power type may only be used once across the entire team. Setting the type to automatic functions as setting it to Fairy.
Bans:
OU clauses +
- :Shedinja:Shedinja
Thanks to being able to change its type, Shedinja gains the capabilities to bend what Wonder Guard blocks. This makes the team matchup part even more of a problem for other teams, now having to either pack wide coverage on mostly everything, abuse status, or weather. It causes too many problems in the long run and will end up banned.

On the Radar:

- :Darmanitan-Galar:Darmanitan-Galar
Galarian Darmanitan is already a beast in OU with its Choice Band ability and stats to abuse it, but this metagame can easilly push it over the edge. As Galarmitan has access to any type to help enhance its breaking capabilities, Galarmitan could easily get out of hand.
-
Dracovish
Dracovish get to keep its Water-Type. This allows it to start running crazy STAB options alongside its 170BP (effectively) Water-Type move. There's lots of options for strong STAB, especially considering it access to Strong Jaw. Dracovish has power that has a good chance of exploding on the metagame.

These moves may only be used on Pokemon who get them naturally:
  • Bolt Beak
  • Clangorous Soul
  • Fishious Rend
  • No Retreat
  • Shift Gear
  • Spore
  • V-Create
Potential Sets:

Dragapult @ Life Orb
Ability: Infiltrator
Hidden Power: Ground
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Darts
- Earthquake
- Sucker Punch

Welcome to Garchomp simulator, this time with 100BP Dragon Move and DD. In all Honesty, I can see Dragapult running loads of sets in this metagame.


Rotom-Heat @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Thunderbolt
- Moonblast
- Overheat

Electric/Fairy is a really nice typing, further backed up by Levitate removing a weakness. Oven Rotom was chosen specifically for it access to Steel coverage.


Orbeetle @ Leftovers
Ability: Frisk
Hidden Power: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Sticky Web
- Recover
- Bug Buzz
- U-turn

Yes I am aware that Orbeetle is not OU, but with HP Steel, it can get the nice Bug/Steel defensive typing with 60/110/120 defenses to back it up.

Toxapex @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
Hidden Power: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Parting Shot
- Knock Off
- Recover
- Haze

Water/Poison is a decent typing, and so is Poison/Dark. This set aims to be more of a defensive pivot rather than a wall.
I'll be adding more as time goes on. Note that these may not be the best sets.

Questions:

Q: Why doesn't something like making the mon shiny replace the first type instead?
A: That was to limit how many sets could be possible, as without it, each mon has 17 possible forms to use thanks to the type options.

Q: How do we figure out the typing?
A: It's displayed upon the mon switching in

Q: What happens if the type I choose is the same as one of my types?
A: If it's the same as your primary type, you become monotyped. If it's the same as your secondary type, your type remains unchanged. You may still receive the two extra moves if you choose to do this.

Questions for you:

  • Is using showdown's automatic type to simulate Fairy a good idea? Should I scrap it and not allow changing into the Fairy-Type?
  • The new typing currently displays upon the mon switching in. Should this be changed to not showing the typing at all?
  • Would using Hidden Power type be a bad idea due to the removal of Hidden Power? If so, what other alternatives would be good?
 
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Oh shit, didn't realize this was open.

First off, I very much support Flipped. I remember someone had the same idea last gen (maybe it was the same person; I don't feel like checking) and I really think it has the potential to be unique. While it would no longer be applicable this gen because of Dexit, my favorite set that I thought of last gen was for Pheromosa.

Stats: 151 / 37 / 137 / 37 / 137 / 71

Pheromosa goes from being a blistering fast glass cannon to a decently fast wall who can make use of moves like Rapid Spin, Roost, and U-turn to remove hazards, stay healthy, and maintain momentum.



Second, I got this idea from some people desperately trying to negotiate Dynamax not being completely banned in OU by instituting dumb restrictions.

Last Stand (that name's probably been taken by something)
Standard OU, except when you send out your final Pokemon, it will automatically and permanently Dynamax.
 
Thanks Drampa's Grandpa for your question and DrPumpkinz for your supportive comments on Flipped. I'm just checking in on what my next steps should be for developing and submitting this, for as of now those have been the only comments so far.

For reference, here is my original post for Flipped, and a follow-up on why I think it's a unique OM.

Flipped

Premise:
All pokemon have their base stats flipped. (HP/Atk/Def/SpA/SpD/Spe --> Spe/SpD/SpA/Def/Atk/HP)

With this simple flip, the roles of almost all pokemon are fundamentally changed. Fast, physical attackers turn into specially defensive tanks. Slow pokemon with high defenses are now glass cannons. High HP mons are now speed demons. Some may adapt to their new roles, others will not, and the overall patterns of stat distributions will be very different, creating a fundamentally different metagame. Those who come out on top may surprise you.

:sm/Accelgor:
Accelgor @ Leftovers/Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Sticky Hold
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Spikes/Toxic Spikes
- Recover
- Toxic
- U-turn
New Stats: 145/60/100/40/70/80
Accelgor is now a defensive behemoth that can make the transition smoothly thanks to access to recovery, a great ability for a wall, and a wide support movepool, which also includes Encore, Knock Off, and Yawn. It could also act as a good weather setter for rain teams, with Hydration removing status and reducing it's fire weakness.

:sm/Espeon:
Espeon @ Light Clay
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Morning Sun
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Psychic Fangs
New Stats: 110/95/130/60/65/65
Espeon is now an amazing Magic Bouncer thanks to its flipped stats. It has many alternatives to setting screens, including Tricking a Choice Scarf/Band, healing teammates with Wish, and setting up Trick Room for slow cannons like Shuckle. Xatu is also improved as a Magic Bouncer, but with its less impressive 95/70/95/70/75/65 stats, it should only be used over Espeon if you are making use of U-turn, Defog, Tailwind, or Thunder Wave, or if you are using a weather mon that makes Morning Sun unreliable.

:sm/Salazzle:
Salazzle (F) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Corrosion
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Substitute
- Protect
- Encore/Dragon Tail
New Stats: 117/60/111/60/64/68
Salazzle can use its newfound physical bulk to finally abuse Corrosion Toxic. Its lack of recovery forces it to use stalling tactics, but it can stop opponents from setting up with either Encore or Dragon Tail.

:ss/Polteageist:
Polteageist @ Leftovers
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Strength Sap
- Will-O-Wisp
- Aromatherapy
- Phantom Force/Sucker Punch
New Stats: 70/114/134/65/65/60
Polteageist takes Corsola's role as a defensive ghost with Strength Sap, Will-o-Wisp, and Cursed Body, but differs in its additional support options and is exclusively physical. It can serve as a cleric, Trick the opponents item, set up Reflect/Light Screen, or aid a sweeper in getting in to set up through Memento or Self-destruct. Unfortunately its physical movepool is too limited to make great use of Shell Smash and its high attack stat.

:sm/Unfezant::sm/Noivern::sm/Hawlucha:
Defog users. Yes, believe it or not, Unfezant has a role in this meta as a specially defensive defogger with 93/55/65/80/115/80 stats. Noivern and Hawlucha both have higher HP and lower but more balanced defenses--Noivern has 123/80/97/80/70/85, while Hawlucha has 118/63/74/75/93/78. All three of them sport Roost, Defog, and Taunt. Unfezant and Noivern both have Tailwind and U-turn. Noivern can also Whirlwind or Taunt/attack through subs with Infiltrator. Hawlucha, on the other hand, is neutral to Stealth Rock, reducing the need for Heavy-Duty Boots, and has Encore for support and Body Press to make it less passive.

:sm/Terrakion:
Terrakion @ Leftovers/Iapapa Berry
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Double Kick
- Rock Slide
- Stealth Rock
- Quick Attack
New Stats: 108/90/72/90/129/91
This set looks very strange at first, but consider that this metagame has many glass cannons with high SpA and abysmal HP, most of whom use Sturdy or Focus Sash and are weak to Fighting or Rock moves (especially physical ones). This special tank is specifically tailored to deal with many of them. Double Kick smashes through their Sturdy or Focus Sash, while Quick Attack can pick off a nuke that already boosted its speed while taking the first hit. Rock slide provides a more reliable general purpose STAB that can hit Flying switchins, while Stealth Rock gives it extra utility. It should be noted that while Terrakion has some impressive special bulk, it may still not be able to hold up to Steel attacks from Steelix or Melmetal.

Some other possibilities...
:ss/Dragapult: :sm/Drifblim: :sm/Sigilyph::sm/Swoobat::sm/Excadrill:
Dragapult: 142/75/100/75/120/88; Infiltrator; Will-o-wisp, Reflect/Light Screen, U-turn, Thunder Wave, Hex, Dragon Darts (for Sturdy glass cannons)
Drifblim: 80/54/90/44/80/150; Aftermath; Strength Sap, Trick, Will-o-Wisp, Thunder Wave, Destiny Bond, Tailwind
Sigilyph: 97/80/103/80/58/72; Magic Guard; Roost, Psycho Shift, Trick Room, Trick, Reflect/Light Screen, Whirlwind, Thunder Wave, Calm Mind, Cosmic Power, Tailwind
Swoobat: 114/55/77/55/57/67; Unaware; Roost, Trick Room, Thunder Wave, Reflect/Light Screen, U-turn
Excadrill: 88/65/50/60/135/110; Mold Breaker--MB lets it set Stealth Rock in the face of Espeon/Xatu, which is very useful for ensuring that you can break the Sturdy/Sash on the glass cannons, and it can clear hazards on your side with Rapid Spin, and it has a great SpD stat, but its offenses are pretty abysmal for hitting everything other than the SturdyMons.
:sm/Goodra:
Goodra @ Choice Band
Ability: Sap Sipper/Gooey
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Thunder Punch/Fire Punch
- Power Whip/Superpower/Iron Tail/Rock Slide
Sap Sipper/Hydration/Gooey
New Stats: 80/150/110/70/100/90
An incredibly powerful wallbreaker, with solid defenses and surprisingly good speed for this meta. Could be deadly with Sticky Web support. It can already provide some of its own speed control with Gooey, but it will probably prefer to have free switch-ins to grass moves to boost its power even higher.

:sm/Hippowdon:
Hippowdon
Hippowdon @ Choice Specs/Life Orb
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Earth Power
- Weather Ball
- Muddy Water
- Stealth Rock/Slack Off
New Stats: 47/72/68/118/112/108
Hippowdon is a surprisingly effective special cleaner, with a very high speed for this metagame and one of the best special rock moves of any metagame. While its defensive frailty isn't quite as extreme as some other mons listed below, it still needs to be kept away from such attacks, but its special defense is good enough that it could afford to lay out some rocks or even recover against the right opponents.

:sm/Togekiss:
Togekiss @ Leftovers/Life Orb
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Play Rough
- Extreme Speed
- Aerial Ace/Smart Strike/Drain Punch
- Morning Sun
New Stats: 80/115/120/95/50/85
Good wallbreaker with big Hustle boost, solid defense, and decent speed, and can pick off faster things with Extremespeed.

:sm/Tyranitar:
Tyranitar: 61/100/95/110/134/100; Sand Stream--Can go special, physical, or mixed with its huge movepool. Mixed Dragon Dance is probably the way to go--much faster than standard TTar, not too hard to set up with its giant Sand Stream-boosted SpD, and has good special attack to help get past selected physical walls. Movepool has (Physical:) Dragon Dance, Rock Slide/Stone Edge, Crunch, Earthquake, Fire Punch, Ice Punch, Thunder Punch, Low Kick, (Special:) Dark Pulse, Flamethrower/Fire Blast, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Earth Power.


Next up, some noticeable patterns. Firstly, there are a lot of good offensive water types. Surely this will lead to some new defensive threats not mentioned above that are designed to counter these water monsters.

:sm/Blastoise:
Blastoise @ Leftovers/Focus Sash
Ability: Torrent/Rain Dish
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Shell Smash
- Liquidation
- Ice Beam
- Dark Pulse
New Stats: 78/105/85/100/83/79
Similar to what Blastoise now does in standard, but with improved mixed offenses allowing it to make much better use of it's big move pool. Special options include Scald/Surf/Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, Dark Pulse, Aura Sphere, Dragon Pulse, and Flash Cannon. Physical options include Liquidation, Ice Punch, Crunch, Zen Headbutt, Earthquake, and Aqua Jet. Can also support and speed itself up with Rapid Spin.

:sm/Milotic:
Milotic @ Leftovers
Ability: Marvel Scale
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Coil
- Recover
- Aqua Tail
- Dragon Tail/Iron Tail
New Stats: 81/125/100/79/60/95
The physical attacking movepool has a lot to be desired, but it has almost perfect stats for a Coil user. Could invest differently in speed or defense, or even run Dragon Dance.

Other offensive waters:
:sm/Araquanid: :sm/Lapras: :sm/Whiscash::ss/Dracovish: :ss/Arctovish:
Araquanid: 42/132/50/92/70/68; Water Bubble--extremely destructive Liquidation, but frail and not super fast. Use Webs, Scarf, or Trick Room.
Lapras: 60/95/85/80/85/130-- very speedy mixed revenge killer. Has Dragon Dance but bad physical movepool.
Whiscash: 60/71/76/73/78/110-- similar to Lapras but w/ worse stats in exchange for better typing & movepool to use DD
Dracovish: 75/80/70/100/100/90--very similar to standard, but with better speed in exchange for slightly lower attack
Arctovish: 55/90/80/100/90/90-- can now compete with Draco w/ same speed, slightly better attack stat, and nice Ice STAB, but still has defensive problems


Even more notable than all the water types, this metagame is marked by a large number of extreme glass cannons. Pokemon that originally had gargantuan defense and terrible speed now have an insane offensive stat (usually SpA) and paper-thin HP, though some have Sturdy to make things easier for them. These pokemon will be very weak to priority and will need support to reliably bash things. Multi-hit moves might also see a rise in usage to destroy the Sturdy users. Here are some examples that could be meta-defining.

:sm/Steelix:
Steelix @ Life Orb/Focus Sash / Expert Belt
Ability: Sheer Force/Sturdy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Flash Cannon
- Dark Pulse
- Rock Polish
New Stats: 30/65/55/200/85/75
Earth Power, Flash Cannon, Dark Pulse, Rock Polish
It really wants to use Sheer Force but Sturdy makes it much easier to set up. Sticky Web or Screens/Memento support could help.

:sm/Melmetal:
Melmetal @ Choice Specs
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flash Cannon
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Steel Beam
New Stats: 34/65/80/143/143/135
Melmetal is blessed with one of the highest speeds in the metagame, so it doesn't need to go through the danger of setting up and can nuke things right away. This is essentially the full extent of its special movepool, but for a mon with only two coverage moves, BoltBeam is as good as it gets. Steel Beam provides a nuke for when it really needs it.

:sm/Torkoal:
Torkoal @ Focus Sash
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower/Fire Blast
- Solar Beam
- Earth Power
- Shell Smash
New Stats: 20/70/85/140/85/70
Boost and blaze. Needs hazard removal support.

:sm/Shuckle:
Shuckle @ Expert Belt
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpA
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Rock Slide
- Earth Power/Earthquake
- Gyro Ball/Sludge Bomb
- Knock Off
5/230/10/230/10/20
The most extreme glass cannon you can get. Wet tissue paper laced with explosives. With Sturdy and TR support, it will break things.

Some Other Glass Cannons
:sm/Avalugg: :ss/Coalossal:
Avalugg: 28/46/44/184/117/95; Sturdy--Can play similar to the above Steelix set, or make a great user of Choice Scarf, with Ice Beam, Flash Cannon, and Surf/Hydro Pump. Last slot could be a last ditch Stealth Rock or Rapid Spin.
Coalossal: 30/90/80/120/80/110; Flash Fire/Flame Body--Special attacker that's fast from the start. Has Flamethrower/Fire Blast, Earth Power, and Scald, with Stealth Rock, Spikes, Rapid Spin, or a physical rock move for the last slot.
Potential bans: Almost all metagames that give Shedinja more than one HP end up quickbanning it. However, I'm not entirely sure if that's necessary in this meta. With its atrocious 40/30/30/45/90/1 stats, its options for hurting anything are really limited to status, making it incredibly passive and probably not too hard to work around. Then again, its potentially salvageable 40/90 SpD combined with its immunities could still make it a pain to deal with. Other pokemon I would keep my eye on include Goodra and some of the glass cannons such as Shuckle and Steelix. The game follows the standard OU banlist.

Special circumstances: In normal play, many pokemon who change form mid-battle acquire a new speed stat, which in this meta would result in a new HP--an event which cannot occur. This means that all form-changing pokemon will retain the HP of the base form, derived from said base form's original speed stat. So, Minior would always have 120 HP from its Core Form's original speed, Wishiwashi would always have 40 HP from its Solo Form's original speed, and so on. Not sure which form of Eiscue is considered the base, so please tell me if you know.
Most of those metagames create far fewer changes to the innate roles of pokemon. In Tier Shift, everyone does the same thing as in standard, it's just that the formerly weak ones are beefed up. In Scalemons, once again, everyone's play styles are the same but their stats are just buffed or nerfed relative to each other--since unevolved pokemon tend to have the most extreme stat differences, Scalemons largely becomes a weird Little Cup. In Reversed, pokemon do have their roles switched between being physical and special, but a wall is still a wall and a sweeper is still a sweeper, and in fact much of the cast in Reversed ends up being the same as in standard, just doing their role on the other side of the spectrum.

Flipped is uniquely different from that, in that almost all pokemon now function in completely different ways. Where else have fat mons been forced to live life as blazingly fast? Where else have sweepers been forced to try their hand as walls? Where else have slow tanks been forced to act as glass cannons? All this, despite everyone's BST being exactly the same.

The Negative Metagame is the only other OM I can think of that has created a similar role reversal. Its calculation formula--160 minus existing stat (which is more complicated and arbitrary)--favors pokemon with extremely low BST, creating a kind of reverse LC with some weird ones like Shuckle thrown in. In some ways Flipped can be seen as the OU counterpart to this, as it is a kind of reverse standard that also has some weird ones like Shuckle. However, Flipped is less restrictive than The Negative Metagame. Both OMs create the phenomenon of pokemon trying to make due with a movepool that wasn't designed for their new role, but since fully evolved pokemon have better movepools, there are more tools to make the transition, so there is a better diversity of choices. Flipped is also unique in that there are a select few pokemon that return from standard without having changed at all (Mew, Celebi, Jirachi) or very little (Dracovish), creating some interesting dynamics between the old and the new. With no changes to anyone's BST, the metagame truly becomes an exploration on how stat distribution controls a pokemon's fortunes. Flipped also has a simpler, less arbitrary, and more consistent formula for stats, making it more user-friendly and a more logical choice for the main reversal-style metagame. And in any event, there hasn't been a post in The Negative Metagame's thread since 2016, so really doesn't seem like TNM has much of a current following anyway.

I want to make a few observations about the unique trends in this metagame.
1) In normal play, there are more pokemon with very low speed stats than very high HP stats, which translates to a larger number of pokemon with frail HP in this metagame.
2) It's no secret that there are some common stat patterns associated with each type--for instance, steel pokemon are usually slow and defensive, while electrics are usually fast attackers. When stats are flipped, this means that roles change can change not just for individual species, but for entire types on average. There are now far fewer viable bulky steels, and way more defensive electrics.
3) Certain utility moves also tend to be constrained to certain types. For instance, recovery is much more common for psychic and flying types than it is for electrics. That means that in this metagame, a lot of those new bulky electrics will face challenges fulfilling their roles as walls.
4) The above two points could cause changes in the usefulness of certain types that could trickle throughout the entire type chart. For example, will fighting fall out of favor in the world of wall breaking now that there are fewer steel types to smash? Will ice be more sought after now that there are several good defensive flying pokemon? What we value as a "good type" and a "bad type" could potentially change.
5) Many moves are also associated not just with certain types, but with certain stat spreads. There are more slow bulky pokemon with recovery than fast ones, and often offensive pokemon get better coverage. In Flipped, this means many recovery users will be frail, though at the same time, many sweepers will be limited by their offensive options.

Overall, I think these trends will give offense an advantage over defense, though I think there is still plenty of counterplay. That brings me to a question for the community:

Should transferrable pokemon and moves be allowed from the start, or should their use be banned until HOME is released? I think the biggest benefit of letting players use them now would be the larger number of recovery options, due to both the addition of pokemon (i.e. Mew, Celebi, Kyurem) and the increased distribution of Roost (Hydreigon, Flygon, Ninjask, Decidueye, Ribombee). Due to the trends described above, I think the higher diversity of options will help keep the metagame balanced. But if is standard practice to keep unreleased mons banned until they can be used in game, I'd want to be consistent.

Another question:
What's the best way to handle Shedinja? As I mentioned earlier, I think it will be perfectly manageable with 40/30/30/45/90/1 stats and no recovery, but maybe some people disagree and say Wonder Guard and >1 HP alone could make it uncompetitive. Beyond that, I know a lot of OMs that change stats keep it at 1 HP anyway, arguing that it is hardcoded to that. Is it more appropriate to complete the Flip and hardcode speed to be always be one, or to Flip only the stats and leave Shedinja hardcoded at 1 HP? I think concept-wise, it makes more sense to do the former, and then hold off on a ban until it proves uncompetitive. But if this is not standard regarding coding or OM ban policies, then we'll handle it differently.

EDIT: Just want to add that there are always exceptions to the patterns I described, and this is one of the most exciting part of the metagame--seeing who can make the transition (i.e. Jolteon with 130/110/65 defenses looks like an excellent Wish passer).
 
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Found some mons that might be cool in flipped.


Stats: 67 / 85 / 53 / 105 / 87 / 98

Corviknight is pretty fast and pretty strong, and has two great moves in Hurricane and Nasty Plot. Unfortunately, its movepool is pretty sparse beyond that, but if you're only going to run a single attacking move, STAB Flying is typically a good choice.


Stats: 70 / 140 / 80 / 70 / 40 / 85

Mantine is incredibly strong, and super fast with Swift Swim. It also has a good physical movepool.
 
This is kind of an edge case. It's true you're not making a ton of custom changes, and everything you're doing can be quantified by a rule. However you have several different changes based around the theme of putting gen 7 mons in gen 1 which makes it more similar to a pet mod than an OM.

In order for me to see this as an OM I think you'd have to
- get rid of the type changes (IE make stuff like Steelix pure Ground, make stuff like Registeel just not have a type, forget dark -> normal that's subjective af). Turning mons without types into Normal could work if necessary ig but I would prefer a lack of typing because there's nothing really inherent about normal that makes it the 'base type' besides flavor.
- keep the special stat calcs absolutely consistent (IE dont use mons gen 1 special, use their average spa+spd)

overall it seems fun but with a relatively high barrier to entry. I feel like it may compete with certain pet mods (which do something similar) too much.
I changed it to use the special formula for Gen 1 mons, already? The type changes you suggested make it more like a Pet Mod? Anyway, there’s no room for creativity - everything is uniformly determined. I’m not asking for 7 different past Gen OMs - Gen 3-7 definitely deserve a Pet Mod. But Gen 1 and 2 could easily go by a simple format that would define them as an OM.
 
This is just OU at level 50 with a couple secondary restrictions that don't change much. I don't see it playing out very differently than OU, and personally wouldn't approve.

The big difference between this and OU is that battle stadium rules are official and not decided by the community but rather the Pokemon company. Smogon’s rules are always changing and it would be nice to have a static 6v6 rule set. It’s also pretty highly requested to be in game as far as I’ve seen so why not bring it to showdown? I believe it would be a very different meta from OU. It would be easy to implement, easy to manage, and have a community.
 
This is just OU at level 50 with a couple secondary restrictions that don't change much. I don't see it playing out very differently than OU, and personally wouldn't approve.

The big difference between this and OU is that battle stadium rules are official and not decided by the community but rather the Pokemon company. Smogon’s rules are always changing and it would be nice to have a static 6v6 rule set. It’s also pretty highly requested to be in game as far as I’ve seen so why not bring it to showdown? I believe it would be a very different meta from OU. It would be easy to implement, easy to manage, and have a community.
Your quote seems out of context and you didn’t add anything after quoting. Did you mean to do this?
 
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RNG-Less
Every aspect of RNG is changed to return a fixed result. Pokemon always do the same amount of damage with each move. All secondary effects are canceled. Every timer is fixed.

Question to the community:
Would this be enjoyable to play?
 
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RNG-Less
Every aspect of RNG is changed to return a fixed result. Pokemon always do the same amount of damage with each move. All secondary effects are canceled. Every timer is fixed.

Question to the community:
Would this be enjoyable to play?
Eeh, I'm not sure regarding secondary effects. On one hand, it can make moves like Scald useless now, being less damaging (though if you hate that move, that's a good thing). On the other hand, suggesting that secondary effects to always happens would not be better with a few very annoying statuses to take into consideration (always Flinch or Freeze? No sir, no thanks).

On the yet other hand, RNG-less also implies 100% accuracy for every move. This make inaccurate but powerful moves like Hydro Pump and Focus Blast more useful and consistent, with Iron Tail, Inferno, Zap Cannon (watchlist or quickban this one), Dynamic Punch (ditto), Dragon Rush, Rock Climb (as Gen 8 Normal STAB), Sky Uppercut, Cross Chop and Circle Throw more reliable and consistent.
 
RNG-Less
Every aspect of RNG is changed to return a fixed result. Pokemon always do the same amount of damage with each move. All secondary effects are canceled. Every timer is fixed.

Question to the community:
Would this be enjoyable to play?
There was a similar idea from last gen that sounded much more interesting. All moves were given 100% accuracy and no secondary effects, but their base power was lowered or raised depending on how much their accuracy was raised and how likely their effects were. To use Fire Blast as an example:

Initial base power: 110
Accuracy boost: 15%
Effect chance: 10%

New base power = 110 - 15 + 10 = 105

Things get crazy when you consider moves with 100% effects. For example, Bulldoze has 160 base power, and Fake Out has 140.
 
Summoning Sickness

Premise:
Each Pokemon can Dynamax once, but Pokemon can't Attack the turn they Dynamax.

So you only get two turns of Dyanamax attacks, but still 3 turns of boosted HP.

Bans: OU clauses

Does this sound interesting to play?
 
Stat Step
(edit: apparently i suggested this exact thing for a previous gen. i have a severe memory problem :T )

Metagame premise
Each Pokemon has HP, ATK, DEF, SPA, SPD, SPE fit into slots 1-6 of their stats. However in this metagame, these are offset based on their teamslot positions! The HP slot corresponds to the teamslot, so the Pokemon in the 1st teamslot has HP in slot 1, ATK in slot 2 etc (eg. the regular stat layout), while the Pokemon in the 2nd teamslot has HP in slot 2, ATK in slot 3, DEF slot 3, and ends up having SPE loop around and end in slot 1.
To lay it out more clearly, it works as follows (with hp highlighted just as a visual anchor point):
Teamslot 1: HP/ATK/DEF/SPA/SPD/SPE
Teamslot 2: SPE/HP/ATK/DEF/SPA/SPD
Teamslot 3: SPD/SPE/HP/ATK/DEF/SPA
Teamslot 4: SPA/SPD/SPE/HP/ATK/DEF
Teamslot 5: DEF/SPA/SPD/SPE/HP/ATK
Teamslot 6: ATK/DEF/SPA/SPD/SPE/HP


Potential bans and threats
:

So here are some examples of mons that are interesting (im highlighting hp as a visual anchor again):

araquanid in slot 2:

42/68/70/92/50/132

Each stat moved to the right one step, ending up with a very fast special attacking Araquanid. This mon hits incredibly hard with Hydro Pump and has excellent type coverage in Ice Beam and Giga Drain, not to mention being a speedy suicide webber. For power reference, Hydro Pump can cleanly 2hko resists like offensive Rotom-W and regular Dragapult.
________________________
ferrothorn in slot 3:

116/20/74/94/131/54

Each stat moves to the right 2 steps. So here Ferrothorn gets to be a hefty special wall, as well as getting a much more respectable speed stat and importantly the ability to use its Giga Drain, which really helps with its lack of 50% recovery.
________________________
toxapex in slot 2:

35/50/63/152/53/142

Toxapex completely flips into a monstrous special glass cannon that can blow things up with Merciless. Whats more, in slot 4 it can do the exact same thing but as a physical attacker, with 142 atk and 152 speed.
________________________
arctozolt in slot 5:

90/90/80/55/90/100

Arctozolt gets to a very decent speed tier, as well as dumping its only bad stat into its unused spa. This gives it a good all-round bulk and good enough attack to blow things up with its boltbeam STAB and Bolt Beak.
________________________
pincurchin in slot 5:

95/91/85/15/48/101

The return of electric terrain? Pincurchin gets to rearrange its horrible bulk into a much more acceptable 95/85/48, as well as get a good speed tier of 101. Now it can actually use its amazing movepool including recover, spikes and zing zap. Theres also a fairly decent special version of this set that achieves lower speed stat, but gets to special attack off of 101 spa which might be better.

One thing thats also interesting about this metagame is that teambuilding has the additional level of complexity of not being able to use two things that might both want the same slot- so you'll have to be very thoughtful in the teambuilder as well as in the match! Its not as easy as adding Grimmsnarl to your team, because Grimmsnarl in slot 3 is a special wallbreaker, slot 6 is defensive, and slot 5 is a physical cleaner.

Questions for the community:
-So what do you guys think of this meta? Once you get used to visualizing how to rearrange the stats it becomes pretty easy to understand imo. Any ideas for broken mons? I think Dugtrio is pretty obviously broken with slot 2 (120/35/100/50/50/70), letting it resttalk stall out any choice locked physical attacker, or alternatively just final gambiting anything for a kill thanks to its massive hp stat. Slot 2 Diggersby with 85 atk also seems very strong.

-Do you think eviolite needs banning? First thing that came to mind was Corsola-G in slot 5 (100/65/100/30/60/55), which becomes a monstrous physical wall, or slot 3 (100/30/60/55/100/65) becoming a monstrous special wall. But Corsola still has very defined weaknesses due to passivity, and I didnt have time to check all the other NFEs.

Here is a team I tried to make to see how hard teambuilding is. Its hard at first because theres so many options. Once I wrote down a bunch of good stuff and just picked from the list for each slot, it became a lot easier.
92/105/90/125/90/98 (Hydreigon) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Substitute
- Dark Pulse
- Flash Cannon

86/50/65/107/105/107 (Rotom-Wash) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Hydro Pump
- Trick
- Will-O-Wisp

63/118/78/92/75/74 (Hawlucha) @ Electric Seed
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Acrobatics
- Swords Dance
- Roost

80/69/30/122/130/69 (Copperajah) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
- Flash Cannon
- Earth Power
- Whirlwind
- Stealth Rock

95/91/85/15/48/101 (Pincurchin) @ Leftovers
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spikes
- Recover
- Zing Zap
- Liquidation

95/50/145/130/30/60 (Cursola) @ Leftovers
Ability: Perish Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Strength Sap
- Protect
- Shadow Ball
- Whirlpool

slot1: regular hydreigon. good wallbreaker
slot 2: scarf rotom-w. speed is up to a solid 107, and special bulk improvement makes it better glue.
slot 3: hawlucha. lower speed, but higher attack. under unburden, the speed will be made up for.
slot 4: spdef copperajah. extremely bulky spdef, as well as nuking with sheer force.
slot 5: pincurchin that sets spikes and terrain.
slot 6: physdef trappping cursola that can kill physical attackers with perish body.
 
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Slot 4 (Shuckle) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
10/230/5/20/10/230
Ability: Sturdy
Naughty Nature
EVs: 252 Atk/252 Spe
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Shell Smash
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide/Stone Edge
- Reversal
 
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Slot 5 (Snorlax) @ Assault Vest / Sitrus Berry
110/65/65/110/30/160
Ability: Gluttony
Modest / Calm / Timid Nature
EVs: 252 SpA/252 Spe
- Hyper Voice
- Flamethrower
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
 
Slot 2 (Golisopod) @ Choice Band
125/140/60/90/40/70
Ability: Emergency Exit
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Leech Life
- First Impression
- Aqua Jet
- Liquidation

Slot 6 (Dragapult) @ Light Clay
142/88/120/75/100/75
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- U-turn
- Light Screen
- Reflect
 
Stat Balance
The average of Atk and Sp Atk is used for both stats, and the average of Def and Sp Def is used for both stats.

(Is this an existing submission already?)
 
Single Typed

Metagame premise: Every Pokémon is made into keeping only one of their types. If they are Regular, they keep Primary while if they are Shiny, they keep their secondary type.
Potential bans and threats:
1578616835732.png
- Without its Ice-type, Kyurem can be genually pretty bulky, with 125 / 90 / 90 defenses, Pressure and access to Roost, while also not being passive at all. Dragon is a pretty neat defensive typing to have and it benefits more tha it loses with no Ice type
1578617138903.png
- Rotom's alternate forms all function really well in that they can opt to have essentially no weaknesses. Heat in specific may still want to use Fire but having only Overheat as its stab hurts
1578619301459.png
- Much like Kyurem, losing Bug works for its advantage as a defensive mon

Overall the meta plays as you having to work around only having 1 stab while defensive mons need a solo typing to work around with. Will edit post later to give more in-deep analyzis
 
DynaMin

Metagame Premise: Nerf Dynamax until it's not banworthy.

Apparently Dynamax is overpowered, and keeps getting banned. We should do something about this, so that people can use this new mechanic. Let's see what Dynamax gives you:
  • It doubles your HP
  • It gives you immunity to flinching and phasing and some miscellaneous effects
  • It gives you Max Moves, which have more power and additional effects
  • It lasts for three turns
We could nerf this in a number of ways:
  • Reducing the number of turns spent in Dynamax
  • Reducing the HP boost of Dynamax
  • Removing Dynamax's immunities (flinch, phasing)
  • Removing the secondary effects of Max Moves
  • Removing Max Moves
Note that even with the first four of these options applied, Dynamax is still more powerful than Z-moves (because you can still hold an item).
 
DynaMin

Metagame Premise: Nerf Dynamax until it's not banworthy.

Apparently Dynamax is overpowered, and keeps getting banned. We should do something about this, so that people can use this new mechanic. Let's see what Dynamax gives you:
  • It doubles your HP
  • It gives you immunity to flinching and phasing and some miscellaneous effects
  • It gives you Max Moves, which have more power and additional effects
  • It lasts for three turns
We could nerf this in a number of ways:
  • Reducing the number of turns spent in Dynamax
  • Reducing the HP boost of Dynamax
  • Removing Dynamax's immunities (flinch, phasing)
  • Removing the secondary effects of Max Moves
  • Removing Max Moves
Note that even with the first four of these options applied, Dynamax is still more powerful than Z-moves (because you can still hold an item).
You are forgetting something. It disables items and abilities that choice lock.

Have you looked at the dynamax ideas presented earlier in the thread?
 
Mirrormons

Metagame premise: Both players will use the same team that consists of three mons randomly picked from both original teams, making the games mirror matches where both players affect how it plays like.

Example:
Player 1 picked these mons:
Galarian Form
Player 2 picked these mons:

This would be one of the possible teams that both players end up using:


Being able to properly evaluate each matchup would be the key to consistent winning.

Potential bans and threats: Metagame would probably have OU banlist. Nothing is really broken because both players would always run it at the same time.

Questions for the community: Could both players picking the same mon break the Species Clause?
Would speed ties be too impactful?
Would people running joke sets ruin the meta or be part of its charm?
 
Mirrormons

Metagame premise: Both players will use the same team that consists of three mons randomly picked from both original teams, making the games mirror matches where both players affect how it plays like.

Example:
Player 1 picked these mons:
Galarian Form
Player 2 picked these mons:

This would be one of the possible teams that both players end up using:


Being able to properly evaluate each matchup would be the key to consistent winning.

Potential bans and threats: Metagame would probably have OU banlist. Nothing is really broken because both players would always run it at the same time.

Questions for the community: Could both players picking the same mon break the Species Clause?
Would speed ties be too impactful?
Would people running joke sets ruin the meta or be part of its charm?
this exists already but in the form of one team gets either the first 3 or last 3, and i think that idea works better because you can have a bit more strategy to your teambuilding and making combos that work/counter each other
 
this exists already but in the form of one team gets either the first 3 or last 3, and i think that idea works better because you can have a bit more strategy to your teambuilding and making combos that work/counter each other
I'm aware of that meta concept (Hemiswap) but I think picking 3 bad mons and 3 good mons kind of ruins it as it essentially turns the match into a coinflip. I also find mirror matches quite interesting, though I admit that my meta concept was quite silly.
 

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