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Uno Reverse:
All stat changes have their effect AND target reversed.
This means that stat changes that normally raise stats will lower them and effects that target the user will now target the opponent, as well as vice versa. For example, Growl will now raise the users attack by one stage. Assume that accuracy is “- -“ for all moves that change their target / self range.
This will largely affect set up sweepers, as moves like Swords Dance, Trailblaze, and Nasty Plot no longer can be used on sweepers. Instead, moves like Feather Dance, Low Sweep, and Eerie Impulse take their place. Other moves like Belly Drum, Parting Shot, and Defog have drastic changes. This OM also affects abilities and items, so Intimidate and Electric Seed, for example, see offensive buffs.
Parting Shot now targets the user, so in the same vein of using Parting Shot on a Magic Bounce target, it will now force the foe to switch, and raise the users Atk and Spa by one stage. Alolan Persain and others can Parting Shot to shuffle foes while netting offensive buffs all the while.
Now this is just silly. Belly Drum lowers the target’s Atk by 6 stages and halves their health. Great way for a special wall like Glowbro to nerf physical attackers while also doing consistent damage.
Lunge can be used to both attack and setup, then allowing for a late-game Sucker Punch sweep.
Zamazenta @ Life Orb
Ability: Dauntless Shield
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Crunch
- Heavy Slam
- Stone Edge
One time to lower target’s Def and hit hard. However, no Body Press sets would be a huge nerf.
Bans, watchlist, unbans:
-Memento: would target foe, KO them, and raise users Atk and Soa. lol no.
-Defog: targets the user, raises evasion. Banned under evasion clause. LMAO.
-Intimidate: probably broken, or we can see if a couple abusers like Lando T and Arcanine can go first before banning the ability.
-Parting Shot and Belly Drum: not sure if either are broken yet.
-Volcarona, Espartha, Flutter Mane, Roaring Moon, Magearna, Gouging Fire, Ogerpon-Hearthstone, and Spectrier: unbanned as they now lack crucial setup moves / abilities.
Your examples don't all match the stated premise. The stated premise is that only the stat changes are affected, but some of your examples suggest that other effects of stat-altering moves would swap targets as well. And you're not even consistent within the examples: some examples (Parting Shot, Belly Drum) state that all of the effects would swap targets, while others (Bulldoze) suggest that only the stat-altering effect would switch targets.
Parting Shot is obviously banworthy if it works as in your example; it's way better than Comatose + Sleep Talk + Whirlwind, which is banned in AAA, STABmons, and Balanced Hackmons. Belly Drum is almost certainly broken as well if it cuts the opponent's health rather than the user's.
Moves like Superpower and Draco Meteor become a lot more viable on sweepers, since they don't reduce the user's stats and the boost to the opponent's stats doesn't matter if the opponent is KOed.
Sticky Web could allow even a slow mon to sweep, since it gets a speed boost every time the opponent switches.
Your examples don't all match the stated premise. The stated premise is that only the stat changes are affected, but some of your examples suggest that other effects of stat-altering moves would swap targets as well. And you're not even consistent within the examples: some examples (Parting Shot, Belly Drum) state that all of the effects would swap targets, while others (Bulldoze) suggest that only the stat-altering effect would switch targets.
Parting Shot is obviously banworthy if it works as in your example; it's way better than Comatose + Sleep Talk + Whirlwind, which is banned in AAA, STABmons, and Balanced Hackmons. Belly Drum is almost certainly broken as well if it cuts the opponent's health rather than the user's.
Moves like Superpower and Draco Meteor become a lot more viable on sweepers, since they don't reduce the user's stats and the boost to the opponent's stats doesn't matter if the opponent is KOed.
Sticky Web could allow even a slow mon to sweep, since it gets a speed boost every time the opponent switches.
Attacks cant affect the user so the only effect that swaps is the stay change. Status moves can affect user or target so the entire effect swaps. If thats too confusing then it can just be the status change (belly drum halves users health and lowers targets attack -6) but thats boring
Attacks cant affect the user so the only effect that swaps is the stay change. Status moves can affect user or target so the entire effect swaps. If thats too confusing then it can just be the status change (belly drum halves users health and lowers targets attack -6) but thats boring
There aren't many status moves that both raise/lower stats and have another effect, and if I'm not mistaken, every single one of them would be either banned or useless if the entire effect swaps, making that the boring option. If only the stat changes swap targets, then moves like Parting Shot, Belly Drum, No Retreat, and Silk Trap at least have niche uses even though they're generally worse than in standard play.
I'm not sure where this confusion is coming from. Of course swapping the stat changing effects completely alters gameplay. However, we were specifically discussing swapping the target of the other effects of the handful of status moves that have stat changing effects as well as other effects.
I'm not sure where this confusion is coming from. Of course swapping the stat changing effects completely alters gameplay. However, we were specifically discussing swapping the target of the other effects of the handful of status moves that have stat changing effects as well as other effects.
I think we should let go of the exact wording of the premise. As I understand, status moves that apply any stat changes are "used by the foe" and have their stat changes inverted, while only stat changes are reflected/inverted on other things. While there is a lot of banworthy things, there should be enough mid-power moves like Mystical Fire now being Torch Song or Moonblast having 30% chance to raise your SpA. I think this alongside the different movepools have a chance to make an interesting metagame that's different from Standard.
As I understand, status moves that apply any stat changes are "used by the foe" and have their stat changes inverted, while only stat changes are reflected/inverted on other things
But why would you want to do it this way? That makes the premise more complicated and reduces the number of usable moves with virtually zero benefit, as the handful of moves where this makes a difference would all be either banned or not worth using.
If the premise is "All stat changes have their effect AND target reversed, and all other effects of status moves that change stats also have their target reversed but not their effect" :
Clangorous Soul: guaranteed 33% damage (provided the opponent has sufficient health to survive it) plus lowering all of the opponent's stats is probably banworthy
No Retreat: lowering all of the opponent's stats and trapping them (with a trapping effect that lasts even after you switch out) is definitely banworthy
Fillet Away: lowering the opponents offensive stats by two stages each and doing guaranteed 50% damage (provided the opponent has sufficient health to survive it) is probably banworthy
Swagger/Flatter: lowering your own attack/special attack and confusing yourself is worse than useless
Belly Drum: dropping your opponent's attack to the minimum and doing guaranteed 50% damage (provided the opponent has sufficient health to survive it) is probably banworthy
Silk Trap: protecting your opponent is useless
Parting Shot: a zero-priority phasing move would definitely be banworthy even if it didn't raise the user's attack and special attack
Strength Sap: raises the user's attack and restores the opponent's health; not completely useless, but still pretty bad
Memento: instant kill, definitely banworthy
Stuff Cheeks: completely useless unless the opponent happens to be holding a berry
Charge: lowers the opponent's special defense one stage and doubles the power of the opponent's next electric attack; not completely useless, but not good
Tar Shot: raises the user's speed and causes fire attacks to be more effective against the user; not useless, but everything that learns Tar Shot also learns Rock Tomb, which is much better
If the premise is simply "All stat changes have their effect AND target reversed", some of those moves become usable:
Silk Trap: a protection move that raises your speed if the opponent uses a contact move is pretty good, though unfortunately there's no viable user
Parting Shot: essentially just a pivot move, basically Teleport but without the negative priority; definitely usable
Strength Sap: raises the user's attack and restores the user's health; definitely good, I don't think it's banworthy but I could be wrong
Charge: effectively triples the power of the user's next electric special attack
Metagame premise: Force more moveset diversity by banning STAB attacks—only status moves and coverage are allowed!
Potential bans and threats: Nothing gains any additional power, so no species bans should be necessary. I wonder if any ubers mons would be weakened enough by this restriction that they could be unbanned....
Questions for the community:
How would you handle Tera in this format? I think it might make it an even more interesting decision, since it would be the only way to get "STAB" on an attacking move for most mons, so I'm thinking it should be allowed as usual.
How would you handle abilities like Galvanize, Protean, and Liquid Voice? They would become quite a lot more valuable if allowed as usual.
Are there any type-changing moves that would need to be banned? Or ones that would become more interesting? (E.g. can you self-target with something like Soak?)
Metagame Summary:
Every Pokemon on your team can contribute some of their stats towards a custom Mega Evolution.
Metagame Premise:
A Pokemon on a team holds a desired Mega Stone which, upon Mega Evolution, initially grants the holder a grand total of zero BST alongside replacing the user's ability with that of the Mega Stone's. However, every Pokemon not holding a Mega Stone on the team will contribute +10 of their two highest non-HP stats towards the Stone’s Mega Evolution stats.
This is an OU-based metagame.
For example, the team here will consist of:
Inteleon, holding a Swampertite
Pelipper (+Def, +SpA)
Electrode-Hisui (+SpA, +Spe)
Corviknight (+Atk, +Def)
Zapdos (+SpA, +Spe)
and Barraskewda (+Atk, +Spe)
Since Inteleon is holding a Swampertite, its resulting Mega Evolution will grant it +20 Attack, +20 Defense, +30 Special Attack and +30 Speed while replacing its existing ability with Swift Swim.
However, if this same team were to have Corviknight hold a Sceptilite, it would stop contributing its Attack and Defense stats to the resulting Mega Evolutions (for a total of +10 Attack, +10 Defense, +30 Special Attack and +30 Speed towards both Inteleon and Corviknight) alongside replacing its ability with Lightning Rod upon Mega Evolution.
Q&A:
Q:What happens if multiple stats are the same when Pokemon contribute stats to a Mega Evolution? A: When contributing stats, if two or more stats have the same number, the one higher on the list will take priority. (Attack <- Defense <- Special Attack <- Special Defense <- Speed)
So, any Pokemon with the same number in every base stat like Mew, Jirachi or Manaphy will contribute their first two stats, which are Attack and Defense. Similar Pokemon like Mismagius, Misdreavus and Flutter Mane will contribute only Special Attack and Special Defense, and not Speed.
Q:How many Pokémon can I Mega Evolve on a team? A: Likewise to Mix and Mega, you may Mega Evolve any number of Pokemon on the same team.
Q: Do Mega Stones grant type changes as well? A: Mega Stones do not grant type changes or additions.
Q:What if all six of the Pokemon on my team hold Mega Stones? A: None of the Pokemon would contribute any stats to each other, leaving the resulting "Mega Evolutions" to become glorified one-time ability changes. Why would you do this?
Potential bans and threats:
With multiple Pokemon being able to Mega Evolve at the same time alongside being able to effectively customize your Mega Evolution stats to your liking, Mega Evolutions that set, benefit from or otherwise abuse weather will likely become massive, if not banworthy threats due to not needing to rely on the likes of conventionally bad or outclassed Pokemon such as Houndoom, Abomasnow and Charizard in order to realize their full potential.
As an extension of this, weather extending stones (Heat Rock, Damp Rock, etc.) will likely have a close eye kept on it as the metagame progresses, if not start off outright banned.
Questions for the community:
How should bans be handled in this kind of metagame? Should Mega Stone suspects/bans be prioritized over individual Pokemon, or vice versa?
How hard would this be to potentially code?
Clauses: Species Clause, OHKO Moves Clause, Evasion Clause, Mega Stone Clause (you may only have one of each Mega Stone on a team,) Mega Stone Reveal Clause (Pokemon holding Mega Stones will have their held item automatically revealed,) Terastal Clause (you cannot Terastalize) Initial Bans: OU Banlist, Gengarite, Kangaskhanite, Starminite, Medichamite, Mawilite, Bright Powder, King’s Rock, Razor Fang Initial Watchlist: Blaziken, Charizardite Y, Scovillainite, Swampertite, Heat Rock, Damp Rock
Example Sample Teams:
- Swampertite Inteleon + Scovillainite Iron Treads Rain by ShadowFlarez
- Garchompite Garchomp + Chimechite Gholdengo Sand by ShadowFlarez
NOTE: These are not actually viable teams that you should be using (and admittedly were quickly hackjobbed together,) but rather these work to serve as a proof of concept for how teams would work if this meta was fully-coded and playable in Showdown.
edit: added sample teams and a one sentence metagame summary
Premise: ALL moves have 1 max PP, but all PP is restored when a mon has no PP left.
Banlist: Probably just OU but modified slightly.
Extra Bans/clauses:
Revival Blessing
Protect and variants
Mechanics and Strategy:
A Mon can only use a move once until it uses every other moves to use it again.
Mons don't have to run 4 moves. If you only run 1 move, you can use that move forever with infinite PP.
Moves are much more predictable which could be good or bad (less skill expression?)
Situational moves like Haze or Rapid Spin becomes much worse because they brick your mons.
Question:
1. Do you think this would actually be a fun OM? As I was writing this I actually began to realise this might not be very fun, and that's the most important thing.
2. What if instead of 1 max PP, it's 2 max PP? Or maybe even 3.
Uno Reverse:
All stat changes have their effect AND target reversed.
This means that stat changes that normally raise stats will lower them and effects that target the user will now target the opponent, as well as vice versa. For example, Growl will now raise the users attack by one stage. Assume that accuracy is “- -“ for all moves that change their target / self range.
This will largely affect set up sweepers, as moves like Swords Dance, Trailblaze, and Nasty Plot no longer can be used on sweepers. Instead, moves like Feather Dance, Low Sweep, and Eerie Impulse take their place. Other moves like Belly Drum, Parting Shot, and Defog have drastic changes. This OM also affects abilities and items, so Intimidate and Electric Seed, for example, see offensive buffs.
Parting Shot now targets the user, so in the same vein of using Parting Shot on a Magic Bounce target, it will now force the foe to switch, and raise the users Atk and Spa by one stage. Alolan Persain and others can Parting Shot to shuffle foes while netting offensive buffs all the while.
Now this is just silly. Belly Drum lowers the target’s Atk by 6 stages and halves their health. Great way for a special wall like Glowbro to nerf physical attackers while also doing consistent damage.
Lunge can be used to both attack and setup, then allowing for a late-game Sucker Punch sweep.
Zamazenta @ Life Orb
Ability: Dauntless Shield
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Crunch
- Heavy Slam
- Stone Edge
One time to lower target’s Def and hit hard. However, no Body Press sets would be a huge nerf.
Bans, watchlist, unbans:
-Memento: would target foe, KO them, and raise users Atk and Soa. lol no.
-Defog: targets the user, raises evasion. Banned under evasion clause. LMAO.
-Intimidate: probably broken, or we can see if a couple abusers like Lando T and Arcanine can go first before banning the ability.
-Parting Shot and Belly Drum: not sure if either are broken yet.
-Volcarona, Espartha, Flutter Mane, Roaring Moon, Magearna, Gouging Fire, Ogerpon-Hearthstone, and Spectrier: unbanned as they now lack crucial setup moves / abilities.
Metagame Summary:
Every Pokemon on your team can contribute some of their stats towards a custom Mega Evolution.
Metagame Premise:
A Pokemon on a team holds a desired Mega Stone which, upon Mega Evolution, initially grants the holder a grand total of zero BST alongside replacing the user's ability with that of the Mega Stone's. However, every Pokemon not holding a Mega Stone on the team will contribute +10 of their two highest non-HP stats towards the Stone’s Mega Evolution stats.
This is an OU-based metagame.
For example, the team here will consist of:
Inteleon, holding a Swampertite
Pelipper (+Def, +SpA)
Electrode-Hisui (+SpA, +Spe)
Corviknight (+Atk, +Def)
Zapdos (+SpA, +Spe)
and Barraskewda (+Atk, +Spe)
Since Inteleon is holding a Swampertite, its resulting Mega Evolution will grant it +20 Attack, +20 Defense, +30 Special Attack and +30 Speed while replacing its existing ability with Swift Swim.
However, if this same team were to have Corviknight hold a Sceptilite, it would stop contributing its Attack and Defense stats to the resulting Mega Evolutions (for a total of +10 Attack, +10 Defense, +30 Special Attack and +30 Speed towards both Inteleon and Corviknight) alongside replacing its ability with Lightning Rod upon Mega Evolution.
Q&A:
Q:What happens if multiple stats are the same when Pokemon contribute stats to a Mega Evolution? A: When contributing stats, if two or more stats have the same number, the one higher on the list will take priority. (Attack <- Defense <- Special Attack <- Special Defense <- Speed)
So, any Pokemon with the same number in every base stat like Mew, Jirachi or Manaphy will contribute their first two stats, which are Attack and Defense. Similar Pokemon like Mismagius, Misdreavus and Flutter Mane will contribute only Special Attack and Special Defense, and not Speed.
Q:How many Pokémon can I Mega Evolve on a team? A: Likewise to Mix and Mega, you may Mega Evolve any number of Pokemon on the same team.
Q: Do Mega Stones grant type changes as well? A: Mega Stones do not grant type changes or additions.
Q:What if all six of the Pokemon on my team hold Mega Stones? A: None of the Pokemon would contribute any stats to each other, leaving the resulting "Mega Evolutions" to become glorified one-time ability changes. Why would you do this?
Potential bans and threats:
With multiple Pokemon being able to Mega Evolve at the same time alongside being able to effectively customize your Mega Evolution stats to your liking, Mega Evolutions that set, benefit from or otherwise abuse weather will likely become massive, if not banworthy threats due to not needing to rely on the likes of conventionally bad or outclassed Pokemon such as Houndoom, Abomasnow and Charizard in order to realize their full potential.
As an extension of this, weather extending stones (Heat Rock, Damp Rock, etc.) will likely have a close eye kept on it as the metagame progresses, if not start off outright banned.
Questions for the community:
How should bans be handled in this kind of metagame? Should Mega Stone suspects/bans be prioritized over individual Pokemon, or vice versa?
How hard would this be to potentially code?
Clauses: Species Clause, OHKO Moves Clause, Evasion Clause, Mega Stone Clause (you may only have one of each Mega Stone on a team,) Mega Stone Reveal Clause (Pokemon holding Mega Stones will have their held item automatically revealed,) Terastal Clause (you cannot Terastalize) Initial Bans: OU Banlist, Gengarite, Kangaskhanite, Starminite, Medichamite, Mawilite, Bright Powder, King’s Rock, Razor Fang Initial Watchlist: Blaziken, Charizardite Y, Scovillainite, Swampertite, Heat Rock, Damp Rock
Example Sample Teams:
- Swampertite Inteleon + Scovillainite Iron Treads Rain by ShadowFlarez
- Garchompite Garchomp + Chimechite Gholdengo Sand by ShadowFlarez
NOTE: These are not actually viable teams that you should be using (and admittedly were quickly hackjobbed together,) but rather these work to serve as a proof of concept for how teams would work if this meta was fully-coded and playable in Showdown.
edit: added sample teams and a one sentence metagame summary
I LOVE THIS. this is creative. not too hard to code imo but im not familiar with the languages PS uses. i mean i assume you can create a potluck stone clause easily. i would say you ban mons AND stones but mostly mons. stall players WE GO WILD...
Metagame Summary:
Every Pokemon on your team can contribute some of their stats towards a custom Mega Evolution.
Metagame Premise:
A Pokemon on a team holds a desired Mega Stone which, upon Mega Evolution, initially grants the holder a grand total of zero BST alongside replacing the user's ability with that of the Mega Stone's. However, every Pokemon not holding a Mega Stone on the team will contribute +10 of their two highest non-HP stats towards the Stone’s Mega Evolution stats.
This is an OU-based metagame.
For example, the team here will consist of:
Inteleon, holding a Swampertite
Pelipper (+Def, +SpA)
Electrode-Hisui (+SpA, +Spe)
Corviknight (+Atk, +Def)
Zapdos (+SpA, +Spe)
and Barraskewda (+Atk, +Spe)
Since Inteleon is holding a Swampertite, its resulting Mega Evolution will grant it +20 Attack, +20 Defense, +30 Special Attack and +30 Speed while replacing its existing ability with Swift Swim.
However, if this same team were to have Corviknight hold a Sceptilite, it would stop contributing its Attack and Defense stats to the resulting Mega Evolutions (for a total of +10 Attack, +10 Defense, +30 Special Attack and +30 Speed towards both Inteleon and Corviknight) alongside replacing its ability with Lightning Rod upon Mega Evolution.
Q&A:
Q:What happens if multiple stats are the same when Pokemon contribute stats to a Mega Evolution? A: When contributing stats, if two or more stats have the same number, the one higher on the list will take priority. (Attack <- Defense <- Special Attack <- Special Defense <- Speed)
So, any Pokemon with the same number in every base stat like Mew, Jirachi or Manaphy will contribute their first two stats, which are Attack and Defense. Similar Pokemon like Mismagius, Misdreavus and Flutter Mane will contribute only Special Attack and Special Defense, and not Speed.
Q:How many Pokémon can I Mega Evolve on a team? A: Likewise to Mix and Mega, you may Mega Evolve any number of Pokemon on the same team.
Q: Do Mega Stones grant type changes as well? A: Mega Stones do not grant type changes or additions.
Q:What if all six of the Pokemon on my team hold Mega Stones? A: None of the Pokemon would contribute any stats to each other, leaving the resulting "Mega Evolutions" to become glorified one-time ability changes. Why would you do this?
Potential bans and threats:
With multiple Pokemon being able to Mega Evolve at the same time alongside being able to effectively customize your Mega Evolution stats to your liking, Mega Evolutions that set, benefit from or otherwise abuse weather will likely become massive, if not banworthy threats due to not needing to rely on the likes of conventionally bad or outclassed Pokemon such as Houndoom, Abomasnow and Charizard in order to realize their full potential.
As an extension of this, weather extending stones (Heat Rock, Damp Rock, etc.) will likely have a close eye kept on it as the metagame progresses, if not start off outright banned.
Questions for the community:
How should bans be handled in this kind of metagame? Should Mega Stone suspects/bans be prioritized over individual Pokemon, or vice versa?
How hard would this be to potentially code?
Clauses: Species Clause, OHKO Moves Clause, Evasion Clause, Mega Stone Clause (you may only have one of each Mega Stone on a team,) Mega Stone Reveal Clause (Pokemon holding Mega Stones will have their held item automatically revealed,) Terastal Clause (you cannot Terastalize) Initial Bans: OU Banlist, Gengarite, Kangaskhanite, Starminite, Medichamite, Mawilite, Bright Powder, King’s Rock, Razor Fang Initial Watchlist: Blaziken, Charizardite Y, Scovillainite, Swampertite, Heat Rock, Damp Rock
Example Sample Teams:
- Swampertite Inteleon + Scovillainite Iron Treads Rain by ShadowFlarez
- Garchompite Garchomp + Chimechite Gholdengo Sand by ShadowFlarez
NOTE: These are not actually viable teams that you should be using (and admittedly were quickly hackjobbed together,) but rather these work to serve as a proof of concept for how teams would work if this meta was fully-coded and playable in Showdown.
edit: added sample teams and a one sentence metagame summary
You should definitely copy the banlist MnM has. This Metagame is a bit different since there is only 1 Mega and stats no longer matter (and you can’t decrease stats either), but most Mega Stones get banned because of some broken ability or broken on any other Pokemon.
Like Hawluchanite giving No Guard, but now Pokemon like Raging Bolt get to abuse No Guard Zap Cannon while boosting its SpA and Spe too, or Bulky Waters getting 50 SpD and Spicy Spray from Scovillianite.
Premise: ALL moves have 1 max PP, but all PP is restored when a mon has no PP left.
Banlist: Probably just OU but modified slightly.
Extra Bans/clauses:
Revival Blessing
Protect and variants
Mechanics and Strategy:
A Mon can only use a move once until it uses every other moves to use it again.
Mons don't have to run 4 moves. If you only run 1 move, you can use that move forever with infinite PP.
Moves are much more predictable which could be good or bad (less skill expression?)
Situational moves like Haze or Rapid Spin becomes much worse because they brick your mons.
Question:
1. Do you think this would actually be a fun OM? As I was writing this I actually began to realise this might not be very fun, and that's the most important thing.
2. What if instead of 1 max PP, it's 2 max PP? Or maybe even 3.
