unfortunately that wont work as stated above, could work as a concept with 8 moves or MAYBE 12
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Project Metagame Workshop
- Thread starter KaenSoul
- Start date
I got a (probably bad) idea!
Pu at best.
every pokemon must have a 4 times weakness. if the naturally don't have one they must choose a tera type that replaces their secondary typing that gives them a 4 times weakness. if they do have one the tera type must match their secondary type
Bans: terastal clause (tera types are only used to change secondary typing), Open tera (tera is shown before the game so you could know the type of the opposing pokemon) standard smogon clauses.
Pokemon unbans:
and probably more unbans.
Pokemon bans: idk lol
this is my first idea so please be nice when inevitably you need to explain the problems with this idea
Pu at best.
every pokemon must have a 4 times weakness. if the naturally don't have one they must choose a tera type that replaces their secondary typing that gives them a 4 times weakness. if they do have one the tera type must match their secondary type
Bans: terastal clause (tera types are only used to change secondary typing), Open tera (tera is shown before the game so you could know the type of the opposing pokemon) standard smogon clauses.
Pokemon unbans:
and probably more unbans.Pokemon bans: idk lol
this is my first idea so please be nice when inevitably you need to explain the problems with this idea
I like this idea, however due to pokemon showdown limitations you may have to find a way to shrink the available moves that can be chosen from.
So if a player could see a max of 12 moves to choose from at most you could have for example: the first 12 alphabetically listed moves show up.
Of course to ensure your idea is translated well if you pursue this, you'll need a more robust method than my example, that is easy to understand.
a bit too similar to i believe full potential
STAT LANES
Metagame Premise: When calculating damage, each moveslot uses their respective stat to calculate damage.
Slot 1 = Atk
Slot 2 = Def
Slot 3 = SpA
Slot 4 = SpD
Pikachu @ Light Ball
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Volt Tackle
- Knock Off
Here, Pikachu has Thunderbolt in Slot 1. When attacking, Thunderbolt will use Pikachu’s Atk stat to calculate damage instead of SpA. Volt Switch will use Pikachu’s Def. Volt Tackle will use Pikachu’s SpA, and Knock Off will use Pikachu’s SpD.
Potential Bans/Threats:
Pokemon that have high dual defenses definitely have it great. They have 2 guaranteed high stats for their attacks, and the high defenses help against opposing Pokemon. Dusclops and every Eviolite user getting effective a free Choice Band and Choice Specs without the drawback too. Diancie also can spam Diamond Storm to get an auto +2 50% of the time.
Draco Meteor, Overheat, and Leaf Storm could potentially be ban worthy. All 3 moves can be put onto Atk, Def, or SpD, and you practically won’t have a drawback. Deoxys-Def also having Psycho Boost as well.
Rock types in Sand are much more of a threat now since the boost to SpD works defensively and offensively. Tyranitar specifically because of Sand Stream, and also because of its stats having all 4 slots deal competent damage.
Also Assault Vest is like Eviolite bit a worse version. In Tyranitar’s case, SpD would get a 2.25 boost.
Questions for the Community:
1. Should each moveslot also use the target’s respective stat as well? Like Slot 1 uses the user’s Atk as the offense stat and the target’s Atk as the Defense stat.
2. Should Speed be implemented somehow or is it fine right now?
No Holds Barred!
Biggest Winners : Mons with mixed stat spreads, either offensively (Hoopa-Unbound, Iron Valiant, etc) or defensively (Toxapex). It also allows for really interesting things, such as investing into attack AND special attack, or defense and special defense to further increase your offense or bulk, if you already have very high natural speed / are a trick room attacker or priority user, or if you already have massive base HP (looking at chansey and blissey, who already run max def and max spdef anyways, and might need to be banned from this tier LOL).
@ Life OrbAbility: Magician
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature (Better than Brave as Hoopa-U has higher base SpAtk)
- Hyperspace Fury
- Drain Punch
- Psychic
- Trick Room
Hoopa-U is also probably gonna be quickbanned, but I feel he's one of the single biggest winner of the tier (with Trick Room support). Although...
252 Atk / 252+ SpAtk Hoopa-Unbound Life Orb Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def / 0 Spdef Bastiodon: 156-185 (48.1 - 57%) -- 41.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
...it goes both ways! So it's hard to tell what will really come out on top here? Sounds exciting!
This also unlocks super interesting coverage options for a lot of mons, such as:
@ Booster EnergyAbility: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 120 HP / 252 SpA / 136 Spe
Modest Nature
- Earthquake
- Dragon Hammer
- Thunderclap
- Calm Mind
Raging Bolt for example gets slighty stronger dragon stab in Dragon Hammer (altho Draco Meteor is also made better in this tier so maybe you'd still wanna use it) AND super cool ground coverage with EQ !
@ Choice Specs Ability: Justified
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Surf
- Close Combat
- Aqua Jet
- Flip Turn
CC, Aqua-Jet and Flip Turn are now all usable (and very scary!) for Specs Keldeo !
the QUADRUPLER... (
) @ Light Ball Ability: Static
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 SpA
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Volt Tackle
- Volt Switch
- Surf
- Knock Off
Trick room attacker Pikachu is available as a more extreme version of Hoopa-U. It will die to any priority, but you can be sure that it will nuke the fuck out of anything that stands in front of it with an Offense stat total of 856 off the rip...
There are a LOT more examples (DD Kyurem can use Freeze-Dry and Earth Power, Belly Drum Azumarill could run a bulky set with Draining Kiss... the only limit is your imagination!!)
Other Interesting Stuff: Moves like Work Up or Cosmic Power instantly become much better (Shell Smash too but that's getting QB'd lmao). In general defense boosting is much better because you always protect from "both" sides, altho this also lets "mixed" attackers boost either side with SD or NP. Draco Meteor and the like are also somewhat better since dropping your special attack to -2 doesn't exactly halve your attacking power anymore: your Attack is left untouched and thus depending on your stat spread there's a chance that -2 here is more like -1. Maybe even less if you fully invest dragapult in attack but still use Draco as your main stab, for example. There's probably a ton more other interactions I didn't list here, and maybe I'll make an exhaustive list later, but I wanted to submit this for some review here first :)
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Actually since how EVs work, being just additional 63 stats at level 100 and natures, you’d be much better off investing your EVs into Speed and HP.Premise : All pokémon use the sum of their Attack and Special Attack for damage calculation when attacking, and the sum of their Defense and Special Defense when defending (clarification: I'm talking about the current stat, not base stat).
Biggest Winners : Mons with mixed stat spreads, either offensively (Hoopa-Unbound, Iron Valiant, etc) or defensively (Toxapex). It also allows for really interesting things, such as investing into attack AND special attack, or defense and special defense to further increase your offense or bulk, if you already have very high natural speed / are a trick room attacker or priority user, or if you already have massive base HP (looking at chansey and blissey, who already run max def and max spdef anyways, and might need to be banned from this tier LOL).
Ability: Magician
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Brave Nature
- Hyperspace Fury
- Drain Punch
- Psychic
- Trick Room
Hoopa-U is also probably gonna be quickbanned, but I feel he's the single biggest winner of the tier (with Trick Room support). Although...
252+ Atk / 252 SpAtk Hoopa-Unbound Life Orb Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def / 0 Spdef Bastiodon: 156-185 (48.1 - 57%) -- 41.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
...it goes both ways! So it's hard to tell what will really come out on top here? Sounds exciting!
This also unlocks super interesting coverage options for a lot of mons, such as:
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 120 HP / 252 SpA / 136 Spe
Modest Nature
- Earthquake
- Dragon Hammer
- Thunderclap
- Calm Mind
Raging Bolt for example gets slighty stronger dragon stab in Dragon Hammer (altho Draco Meteor is also made better in this tier so maybe you'd still wanna use it) AND super cool ground coverage with EQ !
Ability: Justified
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Surf
- Close Combat
- Aqua Jet
- Flip Turn
CC, Aqua-Jet and Flip Turn are now all usable (and very scary!) for Specs Keldeo !
the QUADRUPLER... (
Ability: Static
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 SpA
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Volt Tackle
- Volt Switch
- Surf
- Knock Off
Trick room attacker Pikachu is available as a more extreme version of Hoopa-U. It will die to any priority, but you can be sure that it will nuke the fuck out of anything that stands in front of it with an Offense stat total of 856 off the rip...
There are a LOT more examples (DD Kyurem can use Freeze-Dry and Earth Power, Belly Drum Azumarill could run a bulky set with Draining Kiss... the only limit is your imagination!!)
Other Interesting Stuff: Moves like Work Up or Cosmic Power instantly become much better (Shell Smash too but that's getting QB'd lmao). In general defense boosting is much better because you always protect from "both" sides, altho this also lets "mixed" attackers boost either side with SD or NP. Draco Meteor and the like are also somewhat better since dropping your special attack to -2 doesn't exactly halve your attacking power anymore: your Attack is left untouched and thus depending on your stat spread there's a chance that -2 here is more like -1. Maybe even less if you fully invest dragapult in attack but still use Draco as your main stab, for example. There's probably a ton more other interactions I didn't list here, and maybe I'll make an exhaustive list later, but I wanted to submit this for some review here first :)
A 252 Atk / 252 SpA Quiet Hoopa Unbound has 419 Atk and 482 SpA, with a combined 901 offense. Meanwhile an uninvested Hoopa Unbound has 356 Atk and 376 SpA that equals 732 in total.
That seems like a big difference, but 901 is only ~23.1% stronger, while 482 SpA is ~28.2% stronger than normal. And said 482 SpA only required 252 EVs and positive nature.
It’s be more effecient to run 252 SpA Mild nature to get a total offense of 838, which is ~14.5% stronger than uninvested but doesn’t use up almost all your EVs.
Or you can run Hasty with 252 SpA and Spe and end up with 795 offenses and that is about 8.6% stronger than uninvested.
Also this Metagame is gonna heavily lean towards more defensive Pokemon with how the damage formula works, for similar reasons to why LC is a slugfest.
Where offense and defense collide in the damage formula is Attack/Defense.
If Pokemon A’s Atk is 300 and Pokemon B’s Def is 200, 300/200 is a 1.5 multiplier. But if Pokemon A has 1000 Atk and Pokemon B has 900, that is only a x1.111~ multiplier. At larger numbers, the same differences have lesser impact. Additionally, if you want to even survive most attacks in this Metagame, you want to be already bulky. A Pokemon like Gengar only has 342 combined defenses when uninvested compared to Hoopa’s 732-901 offenses or x2.14 to x2.63 more than Gengar’s defenses (or reference uninvested SpA is x2.022 times great than Gengar’s uninvested SpD and max SpA is x2.59 greater). Meanwhile a Registeel’s Max combined defenses are 438 + 399 = 837.
901/837 is 1.076
Meanwhile a Max SpD Registeel (438) vs Max SpA Hoopa (482) is 482/438 is 1.1.
I’d recommend using the average of the stats instead. So instead of 901 offense, Hoopa would get 450 offense, which is significantly more reasonable and is kind of what Pokemon GO does.
This would finally make the 'hoenn special' practical as mixed attackers are usually heavily nerfed.
For example carnivine, a mediocre mon would have offenses of 236 + 216 = 452
Whereas a min maxed attacker: rampardos would have 366 + 166 = 532 (266)
That might not make a difference to gameplay as the average of the two stats means attack is divided by 2 but also defence is divided by 2 so the effect in battle roughly cancels out. Its still a good idea because using averages would make comparing the new stats to the base showdown stats easier.
For example using the average for rampardos (266 offense) compared to its attack of 366 shows us that it is ~ 27% weaker in this metagame.
Whereas Carnivine's 226 avg offense compared to 236 attack means it is only ~ 4% weaker meaning that since most good pokemon are min maxed and thus nerfed, carnivine is relatively more powerful.
I'd reckon that the main benefit of this premise is that more pokemon are viable. A secondary benefit is that pokemon like sceptile with the wrong move categories have more tech options, aerial ace + vacuum wave etc.
It would. I literally posted the math behind it in the post you’re replying to. With how high defense Pokemon are a lot better off and how glass cannons are even frailer.
No, you posted other math. Your example 300/200 vs 1000/900 is irrelevant, since taking sum vs average does not preserve the difference. Here are some calcs to prove it:
Averaging stats (Mew has 236 SpA and Manaphy has 236 SpD):
0 SpA Mew Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 97-115 (28.4 - 33.7%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO
Summing stats (Mew has 472 SpA and Manaphy has 472 SpD; I set the base stats to 200 and added 144 EVs to simulate it in the calculator):
144 SpA Mew Psychic vs. 0 HP / 144 SpD Manaphy: 97-115 (28.4 - 33.7%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO
The latter has twice the SpA and twice the SpD, resulting in exactly the same value when dividing SpA by SpD; in this case, 236/236 = 472/472 = 1. The only way it would make any difference is rounding error (i.e. if the sum of the attacker's offensive stats and or the sum of the defender's defensive stats is odd, using the average rounded to the nearest whole number could give a slightly difference result than using the sum).
The problem is the variance and trying to calculate numbers.
There is more variance, which means the Gengar that isn't investing into stats is frailer than the bulkier Pokemon that invest into their stats more. It's small, but impactful in how you EV your Pokemon.
Also it'd be way easier to use the calculator on Showdown when you use the average of the stats. You can easily go past the stat limit when using the combined stats, which you can't do with averaged stats, and stat stages are more accurate.
The calculator is a fair point, since in some cases the rounding error might matter. I'm not sure what you mean by variance, but it's irrelevant to the question at hand; EVs in Atk/Def/SpA/SpD are half as effective as usual regardless of whether stats are summed or averaged.
Mew with 267 or 268 SpA (with 252 SpA EVs, offensive stats average to 267.5; 267 and 268 both give the same calc) vs no-EV Manaphy with 236 average defensive stats:
128 SpA Mew Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 109-130 (31.9 - 38.1%) -- 95.8% chance to 3HKO
Same calc but with stats summed instead of averaged (535 SpA for Mew, simulated using 222 base SpA and 220 EVs, snd 472 SpD for Manaphy)
220 SpA Mew Psychic vs. 0 HP / 144 SpD Manaphy: 109-130 (31.9 - 38.1%) -- 95.8% chance to 3HKO
Edit:
Biggest Winners : Mons with mixed stat spreads, either offensively (Hoopa-Unbound, Iron Valiant, etc) or defensively (Toxapex). It also allows for really interesting things, such as investing into attack AND special attack, or defense and special defense to further increase your offense or bulk, if you already have very high natural speed / are a trick room attacker or priority user, or if you already have massive base HP (looking at chansey and blissey, who already run max def and max spdef anyways, and might need to be banned from this tier LOL).
Ability: Magician
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Brave Nature
- Hyperspace Fury
- Drain Punch
- Psychic
- Trick Room
Chansey and Blissey are definitely broken; Hoopa-U is probably the strongest attacker in the tier (until it gets banned) and even it can't 2HKO Blissey. Also, Hoopa-U should use Mild or Quiet nature instead of Brave since its base SpA is higher than its base Atk.
This calc uses 451 Atk (the average of Hoopa's Atk/SpA with 252 EVs in each and Mild nature) and 262 Def (the average of Blissey's Def/SpD with 252 EVs in each and Calm nature):
252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 4 HP / 248 Def Blissey: 277-327 (42.4 - 50.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
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Meta Name (WIP): Pre-Portioned
Metagame premise: A 6v6 Doubles based meta where moves are forced to be single or double target based on the users current position.
To be more specific, moves used by Pokemon chosen to be on the Left Side of their field are forced to be single target attacks, while moves used by Pokemon chosen to be on the Right Side of their field are forced to be double target attacks.
Examples:
vs. 
, in this example if Gholdengo used Shadow Ball it would work like normal being a single target move, but if it instead used Make It Rain it would become a single target attack because ghold is on the left side of its field. As well, if Cresselia used Ally Switch, Gholdengos Make It Rain would revert to being a double target move while Shadow Ball would newly become a double target move. Lastly, if Politoed used Belly Drum it would go from just targeting itself to also targeting Araquanid, as well if Araquanid used Wide Guard it would then only protect Araquanid in this situation. (Side note, assumadily for BDrum Poli would lose HP like normal but the result would be that both Poli and Araq have thier Attacks Maxed
Initial bans: Moves in this meta can be restricted, forcing them to always act as if nothing changed. The initial list of restricted moves would probably be Fake Out, 100% Sleep/Para moves (I.e. Spore, Glare, Sleep Powder, etc.), and Protect + its varients. The intial Banlist would be based on SVDOU.
Mons who benifit:
Double target Hyperspace Fury makes hoopa a lot more potent as it, along with many other mons, has a more reliable move to use against foes
Grafaiai has a good amount of prank moves that become a lot stronger like having prank Swords Dance and Nasty Plot for ally boosting, or Encore to lock both foes, and Pshot to drop both foes stats and switch. Knock Off is also a lot stronger when it affects both foes.
Meow has Ally Switch which lets it dictate whether it hits both foes with Flower Tricks and Knock Offs or if it lets its ally do the spread damage
Def more but these were the most intresting I found
Questions for the community:
Metagame premise: A 6v6 Doubles based meta where moves are forced to be single or double target based on the users current position.
To be more specific, moves used by Pokemon chosen to be on the Left Side of their field are forced to be single target attacks, while moves used by Pokemon chosen to be on the Right Side of their field are forced to be double target attacks.
Examples:
vs. , in this example if Gholdengo used Shadow Ball it would work like normal being a single target move, but if it instead used Make It Rain it would become a single target attack because ghold is on the left side of its field. As well, if Cresselia used Ally Switch, Gholdengos Make It Rain would revert to being a double target move while Shadow Ball would newly become a double target move. Lastly, if Politoed used Belly Drum it would go from just targeting itself to also targeting Araquanid, as well if Araquanid used Wide Guard it would then only protect Araquanid in this situation. (Side note, assumadily for BDrum Poli would lose HP like normal but the result would be that both Poli and Araq have thier Attacks MaxedInitial bans: Moves in this meta can be restricted, forcing them to always act as if nothing changed. The initial list of restricted moves would probably be Fake Out, 100% Sleep/Para moves (I.e. Spore, Glare, Sleep Powder, etc.), and Protect + its varients. The intial Banlist would be based on SVDOU.
Mons who benifit:
Double target Hyperspace Fury makes hoopa a lot more potent as it, along with many other mons, has a more reliable move to use against foes Grafaiai has a good amount of prank moves that become a lot stronger like having prank Swords Dance and Nasty Plot for ally boosting, or Encore to lock both foes, and Pshot to drop both foes stats and switch. Knock Off is also a lot stronger when it affects both foes. Meow has Ally Switch which lets it dictate whether it hits both foes with Flower Tricks and Knock Offs or if it lets its ally do the spread damageDef more but these were the most intresting I found
Questions for the community:
- Is this similar to somthing else? I haven't seen anything like this but I'd be more surpised if something like it hasn't been suggested.
- Does this change enough? I personally like the idea (obvi im posting it) but it almost feels too simple.
- Should the self target moves converting into both mons on your side thing be how it is or changed in some way/removed?
Just mechanics questions right now.Meta Name (WIP): Pre-Portioned
Metagame premise: A 6v6 Doubles based meta where moves are forced to be single or double target based on the users current position.
To be more specific, moves used by Pokemon chosen to be on the Left Side of their field are forced to be single target attacks, while moves used by Pokemon chosen to be on the Right Side of their field are forced to be double target attacks.
Examples:
Initial bans: Moves in this meta can be restricted, forcing them to always act as if nothing changed. The initial list of restricted moves would probably be Fake Out, 100% Sleep/Para moves (I.e. Spore, Glare, Sleep Powder, etc.), and Protect + its varients. The intial Banlist would be based on SVDOU.
Mons who benifit:
Def more but these were the most intresting I found
Questions for the community:
- Is this similar to somthing else? I haven't seen anything like this but I'd be more surpised if something like it hasn't been suggested.
- Does this change enough? I personally like the idea (obvi im posting it) but it almost feels too simple.
- Should the self target moves converting into both mons on your side thing be how it is or changed in some way/removed?
How would Follow Me work if the user was on the right side? Who would be targeted?
If one player has one pokemon left, is it on the left or the right?
What if a move targets the entire field like Haze?
What if a pokemon on the left uses a move that hits its' partner like explosion? Would it still hit its' partner?
When the pledge moves combine, will the faster or slower user determine if it's a spread move?
Lastly, What happens if a pokemon on the right uses Psych Up?
- Based on limited testing I did the first mon to use follow me draws attention, so assumedly nothing changes from base game. If the result would somehow be different though, it could be restricted to fix it.
- Depends on what side they were on the prior turn, otherwise you chose what side you put a pokemon on when both of your previous mons faint.
- On the right it works like normal, on the left it targets only the user and 1 other mon, same with explosion
- Slower mon as they are the ones using the move
- In my Ideal world it, copies one of the targets stats and then adds/subtracts boosts from the other mon. In reality it prolly just copies from stats going from Left to Right
I need this. Now.Meta Name (WIP): Pre-Portioned
Metagame premise: A 6v6 Doubles based meta where moves are forced to be single or double target based on the users current position.
To be more specific, moves used by Pokemon chosen to be on the Left Side of their field are forced to be single target attacks, while moves used by Pokemon chosen to be on the Right Side of their field are forced to be double target attacks.
Examples:
Initial bans: Moves in this meta can be restricted, forcing them to always act as if nothing changed. The initial list of restricted moves would probably be Fake Out, 100% Sleep/Para moves (I.e. Spore, Glare, Sleep Powder, etc.), and Protect + its varients. The intial Banlist would be based on SVDOU.
Mons who benifit:
Def more but these were the most intresting I found
Questions for the community:
- Is this similar to somthing else? I haven't seen anything like this but I'd be more surpised if something like it hasn't been suggested.
- Does this change enough? I personally like the idea (obvi im posting it) but it almost feels too simple.
- Should the self target moves converting into both mons on your side thing be how it is or changed in some way/removed?
somewhat similar to 1-2 switch but not really. you forgot to ban wide guard :|Meta Name (WIP): Pre-Portioned
Metagame premise: A 6v6 Doubles based meta where moves are forced to be single or double target based on the users current position.
To be more specific, moves used by Pokemon chosen to be on the Left Side of their field are forced to be single target attacks, while moves used by Pokemon chosen to be on the Right Side of their field are forced to be double target attacks.
Examples:
Initial bans: Moves in this meta can be restricted, forcing them to always act as if nothing changed. The initial list of restricted moves would probably be Fake Out, 100% Sleep/Para moves (I.e. Spore, Glare, Sleep Powder, etc.), and Protect + its varients. The intial Banlist would be based on SVDOU.
Mons who benifit:
Def more but these were the most intresting I found
Questions for the community:
- Is this similar to somthing else? I haven't seen anything like this but I'd be more surpised if something like it hasn't been suggested.
- Does this change enough? I personally like the idea (obvi im posting it) but it almost feels too simple.
- Should the self target moves converting into both mons on your side thing be how it is or changed in some way/removed?
You really should submit thisSTAT LANES
Metagame Premise: When calculating damage, each moveslot uses their respective stat to calculate damage.
Slot 1 = Atk
Slot 2 = Def
Slot 3 = SpA
Slot 4 = SpD
Pikachu @ Light Ball
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Volt Tackle
- Knock Off
Here, Pikachu has Thunderbolt in Slot 1. When attacking, Thunderbolt will use Pikachu’s Atk stat to calculate damage instead of SpA. Volt Switch will use Pikachu’s Def. Volt Tackle will use Pikachu’s SpA, and Knock Off will use Pikachu’s SpD.
Potential Bans/Threats:
Pokemon that have high dual defenses definitely have it great. They have 2 guaranteed high stats for their attacks, and the high defenses help against opposing Pokemon. Dusclops and every Eviolite user getting effective a free Choice Band and Choice Specs without the drawback too. Diancie also can spam Diamond Storm to get an auto +2 50% of the time.
Draco Meteor, Overheat, and Leaf Storm could potentially be ban worthy. All 3 moves can be put onto Atk, Def, or SpD, and you practically won’t have a drawback. Deoxys-Def also having Psycho Boost as well.
Rock types in Sand are much more of a threat now since the boost to SpD works defensively and offensively. Tyranitar specifically because of Sand Stream, and also because of its stats having all 4 slots deal competent damage.
Also Assault Vest is like Eviolite bit a worse version. In Tyranitar’s case, SpD would get a 2.25 boost.
Questions for the Community:
1. Should each moveslot also use the target’s respective stat as well? Like Slot 1 uses the user’s Atk as the offense stat and the target’s Atk as the Defense stat.
2. Should Speed be implemented somehow or is it fine right now?
Could be interesting, but sounds a bit like balancing hell with all the secondary effects that arent intended for spread moves, you cant just worry about guaranteed secondary effects, anyone with experience in doubles will tell you how annoying Rock Slide or even Muddy Water can be. Not to mention every status move being Life Dew now.Meta Name (WIP): Pre-Portioned
Metagame premise: A 6v6 Doubles based meta where moves are forced to be single or double target based on the users current position.
To be more specific, moves used by Pokemon chosen to be on the Left Side of their field are forced to be single target attacks, while moves used by Pokemon chosen to be on the Right Side of their field are forced to be double target attacks.
Examples:
Initial bans: Moves in this meta can be restricted, forcing them to always act as if nothing changed. The initial list of restricted moves would probably be Fake Out, 100% Sleep/Para moves (I.e. Spore, Glare, Sleep Powder, etc.), and Protect + its varients. The intial Banlist would be based on SVDOU.
Mons who benifit:
Def more but these were the most intresting I found
Questions for the community:
- Is this similar to somthing else? I haven't seen anything like this but I'd be more surpised if something like it hasn't been suggested.
- Does this change enough? I personally like the idea (obvi im posting it) but it almost feels too simple.
- Should the self target moves converting into both mons on your side thing be how it is or changed in some way/removed?
This also doesn't explain what happens with some kind of moves, are moves that affect both allies and opponents like Surf lose turn into "only opposite mons" when in the right?
I also have my doubts about how popular a doubles format can be here but it may work.
Hiusi Guy said: (Source: #2241, https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/metagame-workshop.3709907/post-10973289)
When asked about Haze and Explosion, that would suggest surf would be single target.
Also your response just reminded me Choice Scarf Iron Head Jirachi is at least a consideration here.
Other concerns include:
Belly Drum + Extreme Speed, Sure it only starts on turn 2 and Extreme Speed is single target, but what are you supposed to do against +6 Extreme Speed? Especially if an ally has Ally Switch.
Spread Entrainment doing some REALLY dumb things especially since if I see this correctly, Arena Trap is legal.
If Counter/Mirror Coat becomes a spread move, it can lead to cheesy Focus Sash sets, especially if the partner has Fake Out.
Solar Beam or Solar Blade can be a spread move spammed from turn 1 with the only cost being a pokemon with Drought or a faster Sunny Day user being led. Weather Ball has a slightly higher level of power in sun or rain.
Rising Voltage is somewhat similar, but the question is Pincurchin or manually set? Also, ground types exist meaning it's not as bad.
Priority Spread Brave Bird. Actually, Priority Spread Acrobatics too.
Spread Trick sounds really dumb. IDK what it would do, but I know it would do something.
Spread Population Bomb is either terrifying or useless. I'm not sure which one.
Spread Leech Seed sounds annoying, though IDK if that would mean the same pokemon gets healed twice at the end of the turn.
Lastly, How would Strength Sap go if the user is on the right? Sounds like a massive heal for two pokemon.
ik KaenSoul just said doubles isnt gonna work. but. Meta: Wide Net Concept: The first move on your Pokemons moveset is a spread move. Unfortunately quite similar to Hiusi Guys concept but I promise I came upwith it before then. samples and increased/decreased viability xoming soon in an edit!
Metagame Name (work in progress): Trait Swap
In this case, traits are the properties of a move with the exception of typing, BP, accuracy, PP, targeting, and being physical/special/status. The moves in the first 2 slots switch traits.
This definition does mean that the entire point of a status move can be passed to attacks. However, like secondary effects, if the attack fails, the status part won’t trigger.
In this case, traits are the properties of a move with the exception of typing, BP, accuracy, PP, targeting, and being physical/special/status. The moves in the first 2 slots switch traits.
I could’ve said “The moves in the first 2 slots switch everything except for typing, BP, accuracy, targeting, PP, and move category.” But I felt it would be easier to break it into 2 sentences.
By using the /dt command, I saw that stat boosting moves target the user. If targeting was swapped, that would mean that swapping Thunderbolt and Calm Mind would cause Thunderbolt to hit the user. This would limit swapping status moves with attacking moves which I feel is too harsh since you already have a dead moveslot by doing that.
This definition does mean that the entire point of a status move can be passed to attacks. However, like secondary effects, if the attack fails, the status part won’t trigger.
Ceruledge @ Focus Sash
Ability: Flash Fire
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Will-O-Wisp
- Bitter Blade
- Shadow Claw
This Ceruledge would not receive the defense drops from Close Combat and would instead burn anything it hits with Close Combat. In exchange, Will-O-Wisp is worse than useless.
Ability: Flash Fire
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Will-O-Wisp
- Bitter Blade
- Shadow Claw
This Ceruledge would not receive the defense drops from Close Combat and would instead burn anything it hits with Close Combat. In exchange, Will-O-Wisp is worse than useless.
These moves are not allowed to be used in the first 2 slots.
Multi Hit Moves: Even normal attacks like Thunderbolt become problematic by hitting 4 times.
Protect and Variants: +4 Priority and Immunity to damage if the attack hits. Even if the chance of failure were to cause the attack to fail, that wouldn’t address the main problem.
Helping Hand: +5 priority. If targeting were swapped, it would cause the other move to fail. Either way, it shouldn’t be swapped.
Wide Guard and Quick Guard: These moves don’t fail and give +3 priority.
Extreme Speed: Part of what balances this is that it’s a normal type move, and the other part is that it’s only 80 base power. With priority being passed, both of these are practically false.
I’m asking myself if the +1 priority moves are worth restricting in the same way.
Self Destruct and Explosion: 200/250 BP no drawbacks now.
Destiny Bond: Not only do I think this would be OP with priority, it would just be devastating to lose a priority user because this was slapped on Iron Valiant. Same “even if the chance of failure” part as Protect.
Endure: +4 priority and the user won’t die that turn. Honesty, either one of those alone would’ve gotten this restricted.
Sleep Talk: Using a specific attack through sleep and then a 1/3 chance of a second one. (Rest needs to be somewhere, see bans.)
Multi Hit Moves: Even normal attacks like Thunderbolt become problematic by hitting 4 times.
Protect and Variants: +4 Priority and Immunity to damage if the attack hits. Even if the chance of failure were to cause the attack to fail, that wouldn’t address the main problem.
Helping Hand: +5 priority. If targeting were swapped, it would cause the other move to fail. Either way, it shouldn’t be swapped.
Wide Guard and Quick Guard: These moves don’t fail and give +3 priority.
Extreme Speed: Part of what balances this is that it’s a normal type move, and the other part is that it’s only 80 base power. With priority being passed, both of these are practically false.
I’m asking myself if the +1 priority moves are worth restricting in the same way.
Self Destruct and Explosion: 200/250 BP no drawbacks now.
Destiny Bond: Not only do I think this would be OP with priority, it would just be devastating to lose a priority user because this was slapped on Iron Valiant. Same “even if the chance of failure” part as Protect.
Endure: +4 priority and the user won’t die that turn. Honesty, either one of those alone would’ve gotten this restricted.
Sleep Talk: Using a specific attack through sleep and then a 1/3 chance of a second one. (Rest needs to be somewhere, see bans.)
Since this isn’t a submission, I think I can just say OU banlist and move on.
I will however specifically list the moves.
Sleep Inflicting Moves: This is normally a clause.
Baton Pass: Even without swapping, Baton Pass is just ridiculous.
Shed Tail: Same deal as Baton Pass. Switching out and giving the next mon a sub is quite powerful, especially in offensive metas.
Last Respects: This move is broken no matter how you slice it. It takes having truly abysmal stats for a 300 BP move with no drawbacks to not be broken. Even worse if stacked onto an already powerful move. (370 BP Wave Crash without recoil would get Basculegion instantly banned.)
I will however specifically list the moves.
Sleep Inflicting Moves: This is normally a clause.
Baton Pass: Even without swapping, Baton Pass is just ridiculous.
Shed Tail: Same deal as Baton Pass. Switching out and giving the next mon a sub is quite powerful, especially in offensive metas.
Last Respects: This move is broken no matter how you slice it. It takes having truly abysmal stats for a 300 BP move with no drawbacks to not be broken. Even worse if stacked onto an already powerful move. (370 BP Wave Crash without recoil would get Basculegion instantly banned.)
Hex: Doubling already high BP moves’ BP is just OP. 260 BP Draco Meteor with Specs could make Dragapult a wallbreaker. (Not that I think walls would want to be here.) [+2 252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 339-400 (47.4 - 56%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO] +2 for Hex’s trait.
Facade: Same deal as hex, but if the user is statused, making it harder to avoid.
Swords Dance, Nasty Plot, Tail Glow, and Shell Smash: I fear +6 Choice Specs Make it Rain, but I don’t know if that kind of set will actually work. Please note my highest ELO in any meta is in the 1300s.
Facade: Same deal as hex, but if the user is statused, making it harder to avoid.
Swords Dance, Nasty Plot, Tail Glow, and Shell Smash: I fear +6 Choice Specs Make it Rain, but I don’t know if that kind of set will actually work. Please note my highest ELO in any meta is in the 1300s.
These are based on my understanding of the game, if it’s wrong, let me know.
Being bounceable by Magic Bounce is a trait.
Tera Blast if terastallized would pass the type change and attack stat change to the swapped move.
Triage affects moves that heal, meaning swapping Energy Ball and Draining Kiss would cause Energy Ball to get +3 priority.
Prankster works as normal.
Being bounceable by Magic Bounce is a trait.
Tera Blast if terastallized would pass the type change and attack stat change to the swapped move.
Triage affects moves that heal, meaning swapping Energy Ball and Draining Kiss would cause Energy Ball to get +3 priority.
Prankster works as normal.
1. At what point should moves with high BP get restricted? 150 BP moves exist with Focus Punch and Hyper Beam. Gigaton Hammer isn’t OP because it’s Tinkaton.
2. What should happen for variable BP moves like Electro Ball when linked to Non-Variable BP moves?
If I were to make the text that changes BP an exception, should I do the same for Tera Blast’s type and category changes?
I could also rule that it’s based on the minimum/median/maximum BP but IDK if that would be going too far.
I could also just restrict those moves.
3. Do I restrict all +1 Priority Moves, only the unconditional ones, or not restrict them at all.
4. Do I restrict Fake Out and First Impression?
5. Do I restrict Upper Hand? (Requiring priority is a big ask, but not so much if +1 moves aren’t restricted.)
2. What should happen for variable BP moves like Electro Ball when linked to Non-Variable BP moves?
If I were to make the text that changes BP an exception, should I do the same for Tera Blast’s type and category changes?
I could also rule that it’s based on the minimum/median/maximum BP but IDK if that would be going too far.
I could also just restrict those moves.
3. Do I restrict all +1 Priority Moves, only the unconditional ones, or not restrict them at all.
4. Do I restrict Fake Out and First Impression?
5. Do I restrict Upper Hand? (Requiring priority is a big ask, but not so much if +1 moves aren’t restricted.)
Alphabilities is a unique mix of aaa and alphabet cup that mixes the two by letting Pokemon choose almost any ability that shares a first latter with them
For example: Palossand can use poison heal, parental bond but not water compaction or Sand Stream (pre evolutions don't pass abilities over)
Banned abilities include pure power, huge power, wonder guard, gorilla tactics
Uniquely banned Pokemon include walking wake, Probably iron hands (154 hp imposter or ice scales is too much)
What do y'all think of this idea? Should I sumbit it? Is it actually an om mashup?
For example: Palossand can use poison heal, parental bond but not water compaction or Sand Stream (pre evolutions don't pass abilities over)
Banned abilities include pure power, huge power, wonder guard, gorilla tactics
Uniquely banned Pokemon include walking wake, Probably iron hands (154 hp imposter or ice scales is too much)
What do y'all think of this idea? Should I sumbit it? Is it actually an om mashup?
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Hi I was working on my OM concept “Second Wind” and thought that I could use some help.
The concept basically involves giving Pokémon a multiplier of their damage based on their HP:
Less than 50% HP: +1.3x damage
Less than 25% HP: +1.5x damage
The multiplier can be used only for attacking moves. The basic format I had in mind for this concept was Gen 9 OU.
Here is what I have been thinking:
Is it a good concept to use?
The concept basically involves giving Pokémon a multiplier of their damage based on their HP:
Less than 50% HP: +1.3x damage
Less than 25% HP: +1.5x damage
The multiplier can be used only for attacking moves. The basic format I had in mind for this concept was Gen 9 OU.
Here is what I have been thinking:
Is it a good concept to use?