Talonflame doesn't get get dual STAB priority as Gale Wings takes first effect. Nice Try though.That's a shame, I'll have to run it itemless then.
A few improved Pokemon :
- Togekiss can use Tri Attack instead of Dazzling Gleam, and can even abuse Serene Grace to get a 40% status rate.
- If it has a Toxic Orb, Breloom can abuse a Grass-type Facade.
- Talonflame has Dual STAB Priority
- Cloyster now has a good physical Water STAB
- Mega-Aerodactyl now has a Rock-type move that actually makes contact and doesn't miss half the time.
- Anything with Quick Attack or Extremespeed
- Come think of it, pretty much every physical attacker.
Oh yeah forgot to add him in. I will put exca in a- for now, Really good mon vs offense.Can I just ask why Excadrill isn't on the viability rankings? When I played this OM I noticed that almost everyone runs offense and excadrill breaks offense in two under sand. Also it gets unblock able steel rapid spin and extremely powerful
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Noivern: 374-441 (120.2 - 141.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 265-313 (63 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 338-400 (112.2 - 132.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 374-442 (125 - 147.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 207-244 (69.2 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 192-227 (54.2 - 64.1%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Return vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 164-192 (42.9 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 164-192 (41.6 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp: 231-274 (55 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 192-227 (63.1 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 196-231 (51.5 - 60.7%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
And the list goes on an on down the viability rankings. There are some checks that you can't get around like rotom-w and skarmory...
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 175-208 (52.3 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Nvm, you can get through it after an SD. Not only does it 2hko a lot of the meta it outspeeds a lot too. Under sand it outspeeds everything without a scarf (and you still need a really high base speed on top of a scarf to outspeed it)
I reckon it should go for at least A- IMO.
Huh? WHATTT???? Literally the singlehandedly most splashable pokemon in the tier is in A+???? Honestly, I can't speak for the validity of these rankings due to my lack of experience in the tier, but from everything I've played, Zygarde is probably the single best mon in the entire metagame. I'm not gonna sit here and make some huge argument about it, but seriously, this HAS to be explained.A+
Tbh, I originally placed it in S as well because I felt the same sentiments as you. The VR team addressed that Steels and Fairies that resist or are immune to Ground (ie: Skarmory, Togekiss) completely wall it, which questions its placement in the top tier. But I too still believe that it can be placed in S due to the previously mentioned Pokemon being worn down quite easily and are not super revelant atm. Maybe other team members can explain the reasoning better :0Huh? WHATTT???? Literally the singlehandedly most splashable pokemon in the tier is in A+???? Honestly, I can't speak for the validity of these rankings due to my lack of experience in the tier, but from everything I've played, Zygarde is probably the single best mon in the entire metagame. I'm not gonna sit here and make some huge argument about it, but seriously, this HAS to be explained.
I don't think I ever made a statement about Zygarde regarding its rank, however I would be inclined to side with S because of how well it can setup and sweep. It handles most of the metagame with only DragonSpeed and EQ, however Skarmory and Togekiss and quite useful in this meta and can destroy Zygarde pretty easily. Since those are the only two, though, I would be okay with a bump up to S.Tbh, I originally placed it in S as well because I felt the same sentiments as you. The VR team addressed that Steels and Fairies that resist or are immune to Ground (ie: Skarmory, Togekiss) completely wall it, which questions its placement in the top tier. But I too still believe that it can be placed in S due to the previously mentioned Pokemon being worn down quite easily and are not super revelant atm. Maybe other team members can explain the reasoning better :0
Small nitpick i guess, but both of the S tier megas (Metagross and Medicham) get Double Edge, and Zygarde cannot have ground-ate due to being shiny lockedIf a Pokemon isn't on the list, it a) was NFE with having a real purpose, b) it already has the specific -ate ability (Mega Glalie) or c) I missed it.
Feint is 30 BPThanks a bunch for this, it's pretty awesome and will help quite a bit when building.
Thought there are a few things that you could take off like lucario on the quick attack list.
+2 priority enabling it to outpace extremespeed and the same 40 base power as most priority. Also has a different distribution than quick attack.
Special move, goes through sub, yada yada.
Fairy: Altaria-Mega, Audino-Mega
You also missed charizardX on double edge and quick attack.
This kinda thing should go on his wall to not clutter up the thread (and if you look I VMed him this yesterday)Feint is 30 BP
This too tbhIf we're nitpicking, it's actually 39 after -ate, and the original post used the original base powers (ie Tri-Attack as an 80BP move).
A post about stall and not a mention of mr mime?I've seen a few mentions of stall in several posts, but none really discussing it in depth, so I wrote up some of my thoughts about it from running it on the ladder. Think of this kind of like a guide to stall in metagamiate :P
Probably the most important part of stall is making sure you have a hard counter to all of the major threats, and at least a soft counter / check to less common threats. Here are some of the major offensive threats in the metagame:
(Pokemon with a * next to them can only check / counter one of the -ate versions of a threat and cannot counter both the shiny + non-shiny versions)
(Also, this is not a comprehensive list of all the threats, just the major ones. The counters listed aren't all the counters either, just the more viable ones and the ones that fit on stall teams)
-Ate boosted return from Azumarill hits extremely hard with Huge Power boost, and it has solid coverage for both shiny / non-shiny variants. The extra boost from -Ate also helps it get past some of its usual OU counters like Skarmory (water -ate) and Amoonguss
Breloom is not very common in Metagamiate due to how it fares poorly against most offense teams, but it is extremely threatening to stall. Just to put it in perspective, boosted Facade has the same power as Boomburst, and Breloom even has a strong attack stat and Swords Dance to back that up. Combine that with Spore and you have a pokemon that is very difficult to counter.
Charizard-Mega-X is extremely dangerous to stall in this meta because its boosted power and multiple setup moves allow it to force its way past the very few stall counters it had in OU. In Metagamiate, its only true "counter" is defensive Altaria-Mega, and even that is a very shaky counter because Altaria is very pressured to find an opportunity to mega-evolve without getting wounded in the process. Dragon -ate is most common on Zard-X because it already has strong Fire STAB in Flare Blitz, and Dragon -ate allows it to have high power without resorting to using Outrage.
Landorus is very common on both offense and bulkier teams due to its powerful dual STAB, ability to check many threats, and pivoting ability. Landorus-T is basically always seen with Aerilate because it lacks other Flying STAB and Earthquake is already a very powerful Ground STAB. Although not particularly difficult to wall on stall, it is difficult to get rid of because it can easily pivot out with U-Turn.
Medicham-Mega has the highest effective attack stat in this meta. It has solid STAB priority in Fake Out for revenge killing, and it also has good coverage in the form of elemental punches. It has a lot of counters due to bad STAB typing and lower power coverage, but it is still a force to be reckoned with.
(slowbro should watch out for thunderpunch, though it is somewhat uncommon)
Metagross-Mega has insanely high attack with -ate and Tough Claws, as well as good speed and high bulk, making it very threatening for both offense and stall.
Weavile is a powerful and fast sweeper with two very strong STABs along with Swords Dance to boost. Although Refrigerate is more common due to having solid Dark STAB in Knock Off, Dark -Ate is also viable and deceptively hard to wall.
Checks:(low kick 2HKO)
Aerodactyl-Mega gains two very viable STAB options to abuse with the Return + ate + Tough Claws combo. Double-Edge can also be run for a ridiculously powerful but suicidal attack. Aerilate is more common due to already having decent STAB in Stone Edge.
Extremely (lol) strong late game sweeper due to Swords Dance, Extreme Speed, and good coverage. It's basically impossible to counter all variants of Lucario in one pokemon, which makes it even more threatening. Both Fighting and Steel -ate have their merits but from what I've seen Fight -ate is more common. I'd advise to be extra careful when facing this as in the late game it is very easy for the opponent to have weakened your team to the point where Lucario cleans the game.
(Counter/Check could go either way with this due to varied coverage and whether or not it is shiny.
We all know this one. Classic Aerilate Boomburst. Normally would be walled by Chansey, but Switcheroo makes switching in very risky, and U-Turn allows it to eventually wear down Chans with chip damage.
(be careful about Switcheroo. Nothing much you can do about that though.)
Still pretty low power, more of a problem for offensive teams.
Countered by Skarm lol.
Apparently a big problem for offense teams, but stall handles it very easily.
Easily countered by Slowbro, although Will-o-Wisp is annoying.
Big pain in the ass, but mostly countered by Skarm / Slowbro / Ferro, and not that common.
Hoopa is always a big threat, but it's strange that I've never actually seen it yet. Can be revenge killed pretty easily though.
Altaria has a great typing both offensively and defensively. It provides a counter to threats like Zard-X/Y and Arcanine. It also provides a stall team with offensive presence and a solid win condition. Altaria has reliable recovery in Roost and can also support its team with Heal Bell. The main problem with Altaria is that it is pretty terrible before mega evolving, and it is hard to find good opportunities to mega evolve in such an offensive metagame (Protect can help with that).
Sableye is generally seen as the face of gen 6 stall because of the extreme value of denial that comes from its ability. Sableye itself counters less threats than it does in OU (it still counters some like Medicham), but the sheer value it brings to your team makes it worth considering. Sableye also has other support options like Knock Off, Will-o-Wisp, and Toxic. STAB Foul Play is an often unexpected move that can help to check physical threats.
Scizor provides a lot of good uses for a stall team, including defog support, countering threats, and providing an offensive win condition. Scizor can also help revenge kill using either Quick Attack (more power) or Feint (priority + going through protect).
Not a very common choice, but still worth considering. It can still counter many of what regular Slowbro counters, it just can't use Rocky Helmet to wear down opposing threats. Slowbro-Mega trades that for higher bulk and offensive stats, as well as resistance to Knock Off. It is also a decent win condition for stall teams.
Another uncommon choice. It doesn't provide much direct support for the team, instead it acts as a tank. Does need more team support than other megas though, so this would definitely not be my first choice.
Feel free to try other megas too, although these are probably the most viable ones.
Ah, the quintessential pink blob, blanket counter to 90% of special attackers. Provides team support in the form of Wish, Heal Bell, and Stealth Rocks. Not much to explain here.
A good answer to many physical and special attackers due to its unique typing. Ferro is also one of the best hazard setters in the game.
Landorus-T provides Stealth Rocks as well as a check / counter to many physical attackers. Its attacks are also really strong even when uninvested.
One of the best physical walls in the game. Skarmory can both set hazards or remove them (or both if you're brave enough). It can also run Return over Brave Bird so it doesn't break Sturdy from recoil. One move that people don't use much (and should) is Counter, as it can defeat many physical attackers that Skarmory would otherwise have no way of defeating, like Metagross-Mega.
In my opinion this is probably the best defensive pokemon in the meta. It counters almost every Extreme Speed user and wears them down with Rocky Helmet, and Regenerator allows it to do this again and again throughout the game.
Arcanine is a really good physical tank as it has the bulk and ability (intimidate) to take hits, and it can revenge kill with Extreme Speed. It also has Morning Sun for decent recovery and Will-o-Wisp to cripple physical attackers.
Sheer power is more of a threat than set up in this meta, so Quagsire is not as useful as it is in other metas. It is a good counter to Lucario though as it doesn't fear the Swords Dance.
Stall is pretty uncommon on the ladder, but it's not as bad as some people think it is, and it is definitely viable. If you're interested you should at least give it a try before the OMotM period ends. I promise it's not as boring as people make it to be (but it's definitely as evil as people make it to be >:D). We need more stall players in OMs anyways :P
Added Diancie and Doublade (and mr mime)A post about stall and not a mention of mr mime?
Also heatran doesn't switch well on specs focus blast and chansey loses to taunt / roost.
I really like SpeDef diancie as my noivern switchin especially combined with sand.
Also none of these lucario counters can switch on mixed lucario.
Thought tbh I haven't tried altaria stall yet but it seems incredibly good on paper, finally having an answer to zardX and just having a dark resist to switch on daunt / gyara sounds pretty good.
I've also seen someone running doublade and think it's definetely a pokemon worth considering, being able to comfortably switch on mega metagross, mega medicham and mega aerodactyle to threaten them all with a ko. Requires support but can be good, also seems to have great defensive synergy with mega altaria.
Depends really, sableye mega can take in on most of the time if it's not packing flash canon (which it isn't since it has espeed), and tentacruel can take it almost all the time.Added Diancie and Doublade (and mr mime)
Totally forgot about mixed Lucario. I think Arcanine might still be able to barely counter it if Arcanine is at full health. What else would serve as a better counter?
I disagree, actually I stand on the complete opposite side of the fence, in my personal experience arcanine has been the most successful espeeder I used and I can't seem to really build a team without it.Just peeking in on the metagame :]
Anyway, I think Arcanine is a bit overhyped atm. This meta has given us a nice tool with fire typed extremespeed on arcanine. This, however, does not immediately turn it from a don't-use-in-ou mon to an S/A+ threat.
Arcanine still suffers from the same problems: predictability, being rather weak and no real role.
If there's an arcanine on the opposing side you'll know what it has: espeed, cc, and a combination of will-o, moonlight and wild charge. With its below average speed it relies on espeed to actually beat mons that outpace it, which is next to not being too strong (252+ Atk Arcanine Espeed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew (41 - 48.5%)), also very easy to predict and resist. Many top tier mons such as noivern, slowbro, gliscor and zygarde fear at most a wisp (with zygarde even carrying lum more often than not) and can fire off a free boomburst/whatever on the switch. Even coverage doesn't ko the mons it needs to (BANDED 252+ wild charge doesn't ko gyarados lmao).
I'm not denying that fire speed can come in clutch late-game against mons like lucario and weavile, but it's simply too weak to really break through teams, and not bulky enough to be a wall/good pivot. This, combined with a weakness to all entry hazards, means it's not one of the best pokemon in the meta at all in my opinion. I'm seeing more of an A- rank, instead of an A+ rank because there's been a succesful team with arcanine on it as a lucario check. (pick gyarados/slowbro/azu imo)