Metagamiate!

I personally never view Aegislash is broken, even in OU when it got banned. But what I wanna say is, we have to evaluate what is the impact of Aegislash in this meta.

My prediction is, once Aegislash is gone, many pokes will be more spammable, since their main check/counter is gone. Things like Mega Medicham, Mega Metagross, Mega Aerodactyl, Noivern, Lucario and some others I haven't mentioned all benefit from Aegislash being gone. The first four I mentioned is basically near-unwallable without Aegislash (Mega Metagross and Mega Medicham almost 2HKO 252 HP/0 Def Aegislash with a RESISTED Double Edge). So yeah, you'll have a hard time checking things if Aegislash is gone.

Another view is that Aegislash being a blanket check to many things does centralize the meta. I don't view it as overcentralizing, because it checks less things than in OU and it can switch less times here, because bulkmons generaly have disadvantage in taking higher damage output.

Now my question is, is it okay to have a more spammable metagame by banning the blanket check? Remember that this is not OU, so Aegislash's presence may be needed here to check those threats.
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
hm...maybe instead of banning aegislash we can consider suspecting pokemon who might not have as big of a impact as it would in ou? such as hooh (gains a lot of checks, and is force to run fire-ate to maintain regen(sacred fire is just better for it), still kind of probelmatic for special attackers, but stuff like noivern nuke it down anyways, and a lot of physical pokemon easily have methods of handling it all of which are commonly run on said pokemon.) yveltal (a very neutral typing, good for handling aegis and other pokemon, probably too much for the meta, but worth a test maybe with so many checks and counters surfacing i admit, this one is the "yeah not happening" of the three in my eyes.) and maybe mega salamence too. all three could add potential bulk to the meta, while also having a fair share of common issues each pokemon suffers from stopping them from being completely "lol gg swept" or w.e. idk. after thinking about it, i dont know if banning aegis will solve anything and only make mons more spammable.

what do you guys think about my three "suspect" ideas? would they be too much?
 
IMO i think Aegislash should not be banned because it can be outplayed. As bulky and hard as it is, its not broken or anything.

Lucario can set up Swords Dance if predicting kings shield and use EQ / Crunch after.

Weavile can feint the turn Aegislash King Shields and then finish it with a knock off (or do damage). It can also read the switch in and knock off.

Noivern can use Flamethrower/Dark Pulse on switch in which usually 3hkos on shield form and can possibly flinch/burn.

I don't know why its considered to be banned it is balanced in this meta and without it, the meta would be very different without Aegislash. There are lots of Pokemon that can easily cripple it like Will-o Arcanine. Its not overly broken, but is viable and balanced.
 

Imperator Romanum

formerly Grains of Salt
I'd love to work on the visbility rankings, I'll try to make a little draft and pass it too OP :) If he wants to!




250px-373Salamence.png 250px-250Ho-Oh.png 250px-717Yveltal.png 250px-681Aegislash.png


Aegislash, oh you debil you... So I used to think Aegislash was just so... Borderline. Like it was tip-toeing on the verge of Ubers/OU. But recently I've actually played an OU based metagame with Aegislash in it again, and let me tell you. Aegislash is not borderline. Aegislash is as far above the rest of the OU metagame as Primal Groudon is above the other Ubers. You have a pokemon which in practise has 700 BST, nothing comes close while also being so... Versatile. Aegislash is just so good... It has very few unfavorable situation. It's a pokemon with the ability handle almost any pokemon. And the sets.

I want you to open up your best Showdown team right now... You ready? One of these Aegislash sets break your team, one of them kills your check then... if I'm going to quote Heather Dunbar from house of cards, dismantle the safety and leave people out to dry. Because that's what Aegislash does. It's very rarely used as a sweeper, but as a wallbreaker. It takes standard cores that work fine verse standard offensive cores, such as fire/water/grass, and it has the capabilities to break them all on his own. But the fun doesn't end her, his versatility is quite literally unmatched. I don't think Aegislash is healthy for the metagame, neither are the other ubers. I'm going too be brief about this, but I saw discussion about it and Lcass brought it up. The answer should be no. This is a metagame where none of these Ubers lose anything, they purely gain from this. And if you haven't noticed, you nominated two S rank pokemon and one A ranked, if I remember my ubers correctly. These pokemon are unbelievably broken, you want to talk about Centralising?

Ho-oh walls almost all the special attackers in the tire, even though there's so damn few of them. I mean, all three of these are massive pains too stall, but Ho-oh outright invalidates it, Zangooser can probably testify as of how difficult Choice banded Ho-oh is to play against for bulky teams, being immune to most residual damage and having two excellent offensive stabs coupled with Sacred fire burning its checks, and yes, the choice banded set will appreciate it being able to run fire -ate. For god sake, look at this ridicules calc

252+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Double-Edge vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 258-305 (67.1 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, that's resisted...

252+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 147-174 (37.3 - 44.1%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Garchomp: 174-204 (41.4 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Yveltal

252+ Atk Choice Band Dark Aura Yveltal Frustration vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 255-300 (68.1 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Dark Aura Yveltal Frustration vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Garchomp: 393-463 (93.5 - 110.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Dark Aura Yveltal Frustration vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 293-345 (73 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Here are the ten most used & best sets!

Physically based Three attacks + KS

Aegislash @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpA
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Shadow Ball
- Sacred Sword
- Shadow Sneak
- King's Shield

Autotomize LO

Aegislash @ Life Orb
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Flash Cannon
- Shadow Ball
- Autotomize
- King's Shield

Choice banded

Aegislash @ Choice Band
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Head Smash
- Iron Head
- Pursuit
- Shadow Sneak

Choice specs

Aegislash @ Choice Specs
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpA
Mild Nature
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Shadow Ball
- Flash Cannon
- Sacred Sword

Speedy Aegislash - Bisharp lure

Aegislash @ Life Orb
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
- Sacred Sword
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Sneak
- King's Shield

SubToxic - Mandibuzz murderer

Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- King's Shield
- Substitute
- Toxic
- Shadow Ball

Bulky pursuit trapper Aegislash

Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Toxic
- Pursuit
- King's Shield

Specially based three attacks + KS

Aegislash @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Shadow Ball
- Flash Cannon
- Shadow Sneak
- King's Shield

BULKY SD

Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- King's Shield
- Sacred Sword
- Shadow Sneak
- Swords Dance
 

Dr. Phd. BJ

LuckE n BAD
In OU, Aegislash's only real counter was Mandibuzz, and even then, Aegislash still learns head smash. It isn't really a good option on it, which is why Mandibuzz beats it, but Aegislash gains in this tier. It gains super hard stab in frustration / return and checks pokes like Noivern, lucario, and takes a hit from 90% of the tier, while killing 75% of it back. It was 2 centralizing for OU, and it is here.
 
In XY, when Aegislash is being suspected, people cry for once. "What's stopping Mega Gardevoir and Mega Heracross after Aegislash is gone?" But look at them now. They're managable in OU, right?

So yeah, It's kind of difficult to predict what's the Aegislash-less Metagamiate look like without actually seeing it. We may say, "what'll stop Mega Metagross, Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Medicham, Noivern, Lucario, etc. if Aegislash is gone?" but they may be managable even without Aegislash.

To solve this without regret of banning Aegislash, may I suggest a temporary ban instead? Just like what Ghoul King did with Manaphy in Mix and Mega, I think it's a good way to see what Aegislash-less meta look like, then we can make a judgment about whether Aegislash is needed in this meta or not.
 
I'd love to work on the visbility rankings, I'll try to make a little draft and pass it too OP :) If he wants to!




View attachment 58060 View attachment 58058 View attachment 58057 View attachment 58059


Aegislash, oh you debil you... So I used to think Aegislash was just so... Borderline. Like it was tip-toeing on the verge of Ubers/OU. But recently I've actually played an OU based metagame with Aegislash in it again, and let me tell you. Aegislash is not borderline. Aegislash is as far above the rest of the OU metagame as Primal Groudon is above the other Ubers. You have a pokemon which in practise has 700 BST, nothing comes close while also being so... Versatile. Aegislash is just so good... It has very few unfavorable situation. It's a pokemon with the ability handle almost any pokemon. And the sets.

I want you to open up your best Showdown team right now... You ready? One of these Aegislash sets break your team, one of them kills your check then... if I'm going to quote Heather Dunbar from house of cards, dismantle the safety and leave people out to dry. Because that's what Aegislash does. It's very rarely used as a sweeper, but as a wallbreaker. It takes standard cores that work fine verse standard offensive cores, such as fire/water/grass, and it has the capabilities to break them all on his own. But the fun doesn't end her, his versatility is quite literally unmatched. I don't think Aegislash is healthy for the metagame, neither are the other ubers. I'm going too be brief about this, but I saw discussion about it and Lcass brought it up. The answer should be no. This is a metagame where none of these Ubers lose anything, they purely gain from this. And if you haven't noticed, you nominated two S rank pokemon and one A ranked, if I remember my ubers correctly. These pokemon are unbelievably broken, you want to talk about Centralising?

Ho-oh walls almost all the special attackers in the tire, even though there's so damn few of them. I mean, all three of these are massive pains too stall, but Ho-oh outright invalidates it, Zangooser can probably testify as of how difficult Choice banded Ho-oh is to play against for bulky teams, being immune to most residual damage and having two excellent offensive stabs coupled with Sacred fire burning its checks, and yes, the choice banded set will appreciate it being able to run fire -ate. For god sake, look at this ridicules calc

252+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Double-Edge vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 258-305 (67.1 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, that's resisted...

252+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 147-174 (37.3 - 44.1%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Garchomp: 174-204 (41.4 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Yveltal

252+ Atk Choice Band Dark Aura Yveltal Frustration vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 255-300 (68.1 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Dark Aura Yveltal Frustration vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Garchomp: 393-463 (93.5 - 110.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Dark Aura Yveltal Frustration vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 293-345 (73 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Here are the ten most used & best sets!

Physically based Three attacks + KS

Aegislash @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpA
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Shadow Ball
- Sacred Sword
- Shadow Sneak
- King's Shield

Autotomize LO

Aegislash @ Life Orb
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Flash Cannon
- Shadow Ball
- Autotomize
- King's Shield

Choice banded

Aegislash @ Choice Band
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Head Smash
- Iron Head
- Pursuit
- Shadow Sneak

Choice specs

Aegislash @ Choice Specs
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpA
Mild Nature
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Shadow Ball
- Flash Cannon
- Sacred Sword

Speedy Aegislash - Bisharp lure

Aegislash @ Life Orb
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
- Sacred Sword
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Sneak
- King's Shield

SubToxic - Mandibuzz murderer

Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- King's Shield
- Substitute
- Toxic
- Shadow Ball

Bulky pursuit trapper Aegislash

Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Toxic
- Pursuit
- King's Shield

Specially based three attacks + KS

Aegislash @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Shadow Ball
- Flash Cannon
- Shadow Sneak
- King's Shield

BULKY SD

Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- King's Shield
- Sacred Sword
- Shadow Sneak
- Swords Dance
All this and you didn't even mention how stupid powerful return from aegi is. Return / shadow ball / sacred sword is pretty much perfect coverage or you could just run ghost return alone and have great coverage.
 
All this and you didn't even mention how stupid powerful return from aegi is. Return / shadow ball / sacred sword is pretty much perfect coverage or you could just run ghost return alone and have great coverage.
The return is useless for coverage, because ghost+fighting is perfect coverage. You are honestly better off with ghost return+sacred sword.
 
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Funbot28

Men say I taste like sugar but ain't shit sweet
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
I am not sure whether or not I want Aegi banned. It keeps a lot of mons in check (potentially stopping them from being pushed over the edge) and it has a more difficult time walling stuff now that more mons can spam higher BP moves towards it compared to OU. However, it too can dish out crazy amounts of damage and practically can 2HKO every single mon in the tier depending on which moves it runs. This is the set I am using currently:

Aegislash @ Life Orb
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 140 Atk / 200 SpA / 168 Spe
Quiet Nature
- Return
- Shadow Sneak
- Shadow Ball
- King's Shield

This set is a monster imo and when looking at AJA's post, it isn't really that predictable.

Anyways, I agree that it should be temporarily banned (like with Manaphy in MnM) so that we can see how the metagame develops without it. But, we also need to consider that we shouldn't be keeping it if leads to broken checks broken. I would like to see the meta without it before making a final decision though.
 

Pikachuun

the entire waruda machine
is a Pre-Contributor
Considering how a few people have said that Aegislash should be at least temp-banned to see what the meta's like without it and nobody opposed this motion on PS...

Aegislash is now banned throughout the remainder of the suspect. If it's shown to be broken, it will remain banned.
 
Unrelated to aegi, just wanted to say that diancie seems like a good option to check things like arcanine or noivern. Neither of them have any moves to hit it with and it can kill them both, physical is an option to clean ohko noivern but special seems slightly better with moonblast / tri-attack because you can switch on wisp arcanine. Also a good shot against the monster that is charX since ground coverage is rare.

The return is useless for coverage, because ghost+fighting is perfect coverage. You are honestly better off with ghost return+sacred sword.
Steel judgement + shadow ball has its uses, deals with hippo / skarm much easier and you don't take rocky from slowbro. Not to mention 2hkoing mandibuzz.
 
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Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
forget my post ._. fuck yveltal and ho oh. but what about mence? a lot of checks exist in this meta, but maybe its lack of switchins might be too much too. yeah nevermind.
 
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I have a question, how does mummy work in this metagame?

Also with the Aegislash issue: Aegislash is indeed annoying to battle against with mind-games, hard to one-shot, and also hits hard. But, without Aegislash offensive teams lose their switch in to medicham, metagross, noivern, lucario(which can still beat aegis with EQ), Togekiss (barring hax) and other mons that i may not have battled against. For me personally when playing metagamiate I want to use pokemon that learn moves buffed by gaining an -ate ability so slowbro and sableye don't appeal to me even if they do check Megacham and Lucario. Without Aegislash offensive teams are forced to use Slowbro, or Sableye. My fear is without Aegislash metagamiate will be dominated by Megacham + Noivern even more than it already is. I recall the one battle I let my Aegislash faint early; the battle ended turned into my weavile vs his team then having to sack something everytime medicham came in to use fighting type fake out. In another battle I let my Aegislash faint early then a mega metgaross beat the other 5 of my pokemon after setting up an agility. In this metagame you cannot play Aegislash how he used to be played; You have to keep your aegislash around for certain threats and can't just blindly send it in to break a hole in your opponents team. To end this, Aegislash is a threat and annoying to battle against sometimes but it helps slow down certain mons that could possibly spam otherwise; If Aegislash is banned then offensive teams will turn into "who to sack to a fake out" or "how to fit a mega-Sableye/Slowbro on to my team". I say

No Ban.
 
I have a question, how does mummy work in this metagame?

Also with the Aegislash issue: Aegislash is indeed annoying to battle against with mind-games, hard to one-shot, and also hits hard. But, without Aegislash offensive teams lose their switch in to medicham, metagross, noivern, lucario(which can still beat aegis with EQ), Togekiss (barring hax) and other mons that i may not have battled against. For me personally when playing metagamiate I want to use pokemon that learn moves buffed by gaining an -ate ability so slowbro and sableye don't appeal to me even if they do check Megacham and Lucario. Without Aegislash offensive teams are forced to use Slowbro, or Sableye. My fear is without Aegislash metagamiate will be dominated by Megacham + Noivern even more than it already is. I recall the one battle I let my Aegislash faint early; the battle ended turned into my weavile vs his team then having to sack something everytime medicham came in to use fighting type fake out. In another battle I let my Aegislash faint early then a mega metgaross beat the other 5 of my pokemon after setting up an agility. In this metagame you cannot play Aegislash how he used to be played; You have to keep your aegislash around for certain threats and can't just blindly send it in to break a hole in your opponents team. To end this, Aegislash is a threat and annoying to battle against sometimes but it helps slow down certain mons that could possibly spam otherwise; If Aegislash is banned then offensive teams will turn into "who to sack to a fake out" or "how to fit a mega-Sableye/Slowbro on to my team". I say

No Ban.
Protect is a thing, and tbh arguing that aegislash should stay because it walls 70% of the meta doesn't sound right to me. You still have switchins to theses mons, they're just more risky than "just click aegi and get a kill"
 
Although some ubers such as Ho-oh obviously don't have a place in this tier, many of them would work fine. Anything that doesn't have the attack for a strong Return (and no special alternative) would be fine.

Possible additions
  • Darkrai
  • Deoxys-S and Deoxys-D
  • Greninja
  • Kyogre
  • Landorus
  • Giratina (maybe not -o)
  • Groudon (no mega)
  • Lugia
  • Mewtwo (no mega-x)
  • Shaymin-Sky


Probable bans. Pkmn with 120 or less attack but still problematic.
  • Arceus (Extremespeed)
  • Dialga (Hyper voice)
  • Genesect (Techno blast, Extremespeed, Explosion)
  • Kyurem-white (Hyper voice)
  • Palkia (Hyper voice)
  • Reshiram (Hyper voice)


Having select ubers would make the metagame less physically centered. But some of them (say, kyogre) completely don't care about the whole -ite thing and probably wouldn't be fun to encounter. The 1.3x dmg on a select stab move brings the power level much closer to ubers.

Ubers are also generally bulky and might reduce the aggressive pace a bit.
 
Although some ubers such as Ho-oh obviously don't have a place in this tier, many of them would work fine. Anything that doesn't have the attack for a strong Return (and no special alternative) would be fine.

Possible additions
  • Darkrai
  • Deoxys-S and Deoxys-D
  • Greninja
  • Kyogre
  • Landorus
  • Giratina (maybe not -o)
  • Groudon (no mega)
  • Lugia
  • Mewtwo (no mega-x)
  • Shaymin-Sky


Probable bans. Pkmn with 120 or less attack but still problematic.
  • Arceus (Extremespeed)
  • Dialga (Hyper voice)
  • Genesect (Techno blast, Extremespeed, Explosion)
  • Kyurem-white (Hyper voice)
  • Palkia (Hyper voice)
  • Reshiram (Hyper voice)


Having select ubers would make the metagame less physically centered. But some of them (say, kyogre) completely don't care about the whole -ite thing and probably wouldn't be fun to encounter. The 1.3x dmg on a select stab move brings the power level much closer to ubers.

Ubers are also generally bulky and might reduce the aggressive pace a bit.
No.
 

Imperator Romanum

formerly Grains of Salt
I have a question, how does mummy work in this metagame?

Also with the Aegislash issue: Aegislash is indeed annoying to battle against with mind-games, hard to one-shot, and also hits hard. But, without Aegislash offensive teams lose their switch in to medicham, metagross, noivern, lucario(which can still beat aegis with EQ), Togekiss (barring hax) and other mons that i may not have battled against. For me personally when playing metagamiate I want to use pokemon that learn moves buffed by gaining an -ate ability so slowbro and sableye don't appeal to me even if they do check Megacham and Lucario. Without Aegislash offensive teams are forced to use Slowbro, or Sableye. My fear is without Aegislash metagamiate will be dominated by Megacham + Noivern even more than it already is. I recall the one battle I let my Aegislash faint early; the battle ended turned into my weavile vs his team then having to sack something everytime medicham came in to use fighting type fake out. In another battle I let my Aegislash faint early then a mega metgaross beat the other 5 of my pokemon after setting up an agility. In this metagame you cannot play Aegislash how he used to be played; You have to keep your aegislash around for certain threats and can't just blindly send it in to break a hole in your opponents team. To end this, Aegislash is a threat and annoying to battle against sometimes but it helps slow down certain mons that could possibly spam otherwise; If Aegislash is banned then offensive teams will turn into "who to sack to a fake out" or "how to fit a mega-Sableye/Slowbro on to my team". I say

No Ban.
@Motherhate already said stuff, but this is really poor banning philosophy. If these pokemon, Gross, Aerodactyl, Medicham, Lucario are broken, and I don't think they are - they all have counters. Then we should just ban these pokemon as well, if your reason for not banning Aegislash is because it's an offensive check too a lot of pokemon then you fail to realise you're centralising the metagame around these 5 pokemon, and they're all broken. Shitty banning philosophy.

Although some ubers such as Ho-oh obviously don't have a place in this tier, many of them would work fine. Anything that doesn't have the attack for a strong Return (and no special alternative) would be fine.

Possible additions
  • Darkrai
  • Deoxys-S and Deoxys-D
  • Greninja
  • Kyogre
  • Landorus
  • Giratina (maybe not -o)
  • Groudon (no mega)
  • Lugia
  • Mewtwo (no mega-x)
  • Shaymin-Sky


Probable bans. Pkmn with 120 or less attack but still problematic.
  • Arceus (Extremespeed)
  • Dialga (Hyper voice)
  • Genesect (Techno blast, Extremespeed, Explosion)
  • Kyurem-white (Hyper voice)
  • Palkia (Hyper voice)
  • Reshiram (Hyper voice)


Having select ubers would make the metagame less physically centered. But some of them (say, kyogre) completely don't care about the whole -ite thing and probably wouldn't be fun to encounter. The 1.3x dmg on a select stab move brings the power level much closer to ubers.

Ubers are also generally bulky and might reduce the aggressive pace a bit.
These don't need to gain anything all of these are already leagues above the OU metagame.

Ban.
 
Magnezone @ Choice Specs
Ability: Analytic
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
- Tri Attack
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power Fire

This is a pretty fun set that caught some people off guard. Steel -ate Specs Analytic Tri Attack deals very high damage and whenever this switches in to Specs Noivern who tried to Boomburst, something dies. Also, you can trick people by thinking this have a Magnet Pull ability by switching in to Skarmory and as a result... they didn't try to switch. Also, you change the ability of this into Magnet Pull back just to trick people you find on the ladder. Pretty cool, eh?
 
I only brought it up because it was mentioned [to an extent]. I do not expect, nor necessarily want, certain uber pokemon added into this metagame. However, I do see it as totally viable, especially after having experienced last month's Mix n Mega where ubers were allowed, but did not receive the boost. The ubers were outclassed almost entirely. Rather than simply dismissing the notion altogether, I thought it could be an interesting point of discussion.

The 1.3x on a select stab move - which largely doesn't apply to the pokemon I brought up - makes a large difference to the offensive prowess of most pokemon. It especially improves some pokemon with weaker stab moves (eg. Stone Edge users, but not Close Combat users) which to me is one of the main points of interest in the tier. This metagame, however, does nothing to bolster the defenses of pokemon, and is indeed highly offense-oriented. I don't see that necessarily as a problem, but if you were looking to try balancing it, the first thing I'd do is consider select banned bulky 'mons that could perhaps fill-in that gap.

Or you can literally respond "No." to me each time I offer a discussion point. The only reason why I, personally, might not want those pokemon in the tier is because of one reason: people don't like legendaries. I've had many people complain about using legendaries in different tiers (eg. random battles, "omg you had Giratina cheater", despite being pretty average in that meta).

So, theoretically, what impact do you think defensive ubers would have on this metagame?
 

Imperator Romanum

formerly Grains of Salt
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Lugia: 87-103 (20.9 - 24.7%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
quote="Neronic, post: 6697169, member: 24692"]I only brought it up because it was mentioned [to an extent]. I do not expect, nor necessarily want, certain uber pokemon added into this metagame. However, I do see it as totally viable, especially after having experienced last month's Mix n Mega where ubers were allowed, but did not receive the boost. The ubers were outclassed almost entirely. Rather than simply dismissing the notion altogether, I thought it could be an interesting point of discussion.

The 1.3x on a select stab move - which largely doesn't apply to the pokemon I brought up - makes a large difference to the offensive prowess of most pokemon. It especially improves some pokemon with weaker stab moves (eg. Stone Edge users, but not Close Combat users) which to me is one of the main points of interest in the tier. This metagame, however, does nothing to bolster the defenses of pokemon, and is indeed highly offense-oriented. I don't see that necessarily as a problem, but if you were looking to try balancing it, the first thing I'd do is consider select banned bulky 'mons that could perhaps fill-in that gap.

Or you can literally respond "No." to me each time I offer a discussion point. The only reason why I, personally, might not want those pokemon in the tier is because of one reason: people don't like legendaries. I've had many people complain about using legendaries in different tiers (eg. random battles, "omg you had Giratina cheater", despite being pretty average in that meta).

So, theoretically, what impact do you think defensive ubers would have on this metagame?
motherlove probably was just mistaking your tone, don't worry about it haha

Defensive ubers pokemon would break the metagame, but differently than offensive ubers. So, Aegislash is a defensive threat in OU, like, yeah it is. Don't doubt it. It's presence on OU metagame invalidates threats because they simply can't harm it. Celebi, Latias, Latios, Medicham, Starmie, Terrakion are pokemon who can't be used effectively because of Aegislash being given free switch ins to these pokemon.

There are two ubers pokemon who solely provide defensive utility, there are others but these pokemon could break metagamite simply with their offensive side. Lugia and Giratina.

250px-249Lugia.png

Lugia @ Leftovers
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
- Ice Beam
- Roost
- Calm Mind
- Toxic

So I think this would be the best set, it's what it runs in OU. And it can run this or something like duel screens, defog ect. But this set is pretty neat, ice beam might not hit steel types, but lets be real, what challenges this?

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 110-129 (26.4 - 31%) -- 9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 191-226 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

240+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 89-105 (21.3 - 25.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Lugia: 87-103 (20.9 - 24.7%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

It would be too effective at setting up, and although it can be beaten by something like status, there isn't a reliable counter to it, because it can change up its sets too whatever it pleases.

250px-487Giratina-Altered.png


Giratina @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Dragon Tail
- Will-O-Wisp
- Rest
- Defog

So this is a little different, but it still applies. It's way too bulky for anything to reliably break it, atleast on the physical side. It spreads status too effectively and it's got excellent typing. Caring nifty resistances to Bug, Electric, Fire, Grass, Poison, Water and immunities to fighting, normal is just to good.
 
motherlove probably was just mistaking your tone, don't worry about it haha

Defensive ubers pokemon would break the metagame, but differently than offensive ubers. So, Aegislash is a defensive threat in OU, like, yeah it is. Don't doubt it. It's presence on OU metagame invalidates threats because they simply can't harm it. Celebi, Latias, Latios, Medicham, Starmie, Terrakion are pokemon who can't be used effectively because of Aegislash being given free switch ins to these pokemon.

There are two ubers pokemon who solely provide defensive utility, there are others but these pokemon could break metagamite simply with their offensive side. Lugia and Giratina.

View attachment 58204
Lugia @ Leftovers
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
- Ice Beam
- Roost
- Calm Mind
- Toxic

So I think this would be the best set, it's what it runs in OU. And it can run this or something like duel screens, defog ect. But this set is pretty neat, ice beam might not hit steel types, but lets be real, what challenges this?

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 110-129 (26.4 - 31%) -- 9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 191-226 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

240+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 89-105 (21.3 - 25.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Lugia: 87-103 (20.9 - 24.7%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

It would be too effective at setting up, and although it can be beaten by something like status, there isn't a reliable counter to it, because it can change up its sets too whatever it pleases.

View attachment 58205

Giratina @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Dragon Tail
- Will-O-Wisp
- Rest
- Defog

So this is a little different, but it still applies. It's way too bulky for anything to reliably break it, atleast on the physical side. It spreads status too effectively and it's got excellent typing. Caring nifty resistances to Bug, Electric, Fire, Grass, Poison, Water and immunities to fighting, normal is just to good.
Basically this. Most ubers are tiered where they are for a reason, and its not because they balanced.
About the only ubers that I can really see ever coming out are reshiram and deoxys-n, but there really isn't a point and I suspect they won't add anything (nor will they help with all the offense)
 
Setting up, status, and stealth rocks do help against lugia. That said, status and hazards are an integral part of the game that are not as utilized in this tier because of that lack of defensive walls.

Although, your calcs were done wrong. You did not change Lugia's hp, so multiscale was always active, resulting in a hilariously bulky pokemon.

Jolly weavile using Fake Out followed by X, no SR:
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lugia: 374-445 (89.9 - 106.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lugia: 322-382 (77.4 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Scarf T-tar: 252 Atk Tyranitar Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lugia: 270-318 (64.9 - 76.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after SR
guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
97.3 - 114.6% from the two attacks. Sandstorm will KO if both attacks do minimum.

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lugia: 216-255 (51.9 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lugia: 216-255 (51.9 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

240+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lugia: 178-210 (42.7 - 50.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Thundurus I assumed Nasty Plot followed by T-bolt while the opponent uses CM a 2nd time.
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. +2 252 HP / 4 SpD Lugia: 257-304 (61.7 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
55.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Again, this is in theory. But there are definitely pokemon that Lugia does not want to switch into period, and some that Lugia is destroyed by.

Not to mention status or swords dance, etc.
Lugia is not very theatening on its own. It wants to run a Hyper Voice CM set, btw, not ice beam. Assuming that it gets aerilite, anyway. CM might not be the best for it either, especially with its low offenses and weakness to status and setup. Typically Lugia prefers some speed for a roost that allows it to remove weaknesses and activate multiscale, but I did the calcs as total defense for consistency.
 

Imperator Romanum

formerly Grains of Salt
Setting up, status, and stealth rocks do help against lugia. That said, status and hazards are an integral part of the game that are not as utilized in this tier because of that lack of defensive walls.

Although, your calcs were done wrong. You did not change Lugia's hp, so multiscale was always active, resulting in a hilariously bulky pokemon.

Jolly weavile using Fake Out followed by X, no SR:
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lugia: 374-445 (89.9 - 106.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lugia: 322-382 (77.4 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Scarf T-tar: 252 Atk Tyranitar Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lugia: 270-318 (64.9 - 76.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after SR
guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
97.3 - 114.6% from the two attacks. Sandstorm will KO if both attacks do minimum.

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lugia: 216-255 (51.9 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lugia: 216-255 (51.9 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

240+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lugia: 178-210 (42.7 - 50.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Thundurus I assumed Nasty Plot followed by T-bolt while the opponent uses CM a 2nd time.
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. +2 252 HP / 4 SpD Lugia: 257-304 (61.7 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
55.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Again, this is in theory. But there are definitely pokemon that Lugia does not want to switch into period, and some that Lugia is destroyed by.

Not to mention status or swords dance, etc.
Lugia is not very theatening on its own. It wants to run a Hyper Voice CM set, btw, not ice beam. Assuming that it gets aerilite, anyway. CM might not be the best for it either, especially with its low offenses and weakness to status and setup. Typically Lugia prefers some speed for a roost that allows it to remove weaknesses and activate multiscale, but I did the calcs as total defense for consistency.
You assume too much - I was merely showcasing the bulk.
 

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