Metagross (Full Revamp) (QC 3/3)

[Demoness]

Sorry for taking forever to respond.

I am uncertain if Hammer Arm deserves the primary slash. Hammer Arm is great for hurting Chansey, Rotom-W, Bronzong, and Ferrothorn, and has a chance to hurt Skarmory with an Atk boost, but then Metagross is more easily revenge-killed by Magnezone, and can't really threaten Tentacruel, Jirachi, Heatran, Starmie, Fire-types, etc, not to mention its less-than-perfect accuracy and speed drop. If you have a strong opinion for Hammer Arm > Earthquake, plz express it here, but otherwise, EQ should be the first option, imo.

That is true, but being able to hit Rotom-W with some sense of power to me is extremely important due to the stupidly high use of it. Earthquake does actually help Metagross heavily damage Scizor as he is naturally faster, and is able to do a minimum of 84.9% with 2 Earthquakes + Stealth Rock damage, wwhich leaves Scizor horribly crippled if it decides to U-turn, which only does 41.2% - 48.9%. Of course, Rotom-W and Ferrothorn become a bitch to handle, but Rotom-W can be worn down by repeated Meteor Mash's + Stealth Rock. Ferrothorn does very much wall Metagross without Hammer Arm, but eh, you can't win every battle. So Earthquake is actually going to get the first slash, but I'll emphazize that the choice is entirely team-based.

AC mention Occa Berry so that Metagross can guarantee Rocks even against a Fire-type or survive Heatran's Fire assaults to EQ it to oblivion. You could also mention giving enough Speed EVs to outrun min Speed Heatran to EQ it before it could set up Rocks
AC mention Explosion for a wall-crippling alternative, ideally holding Normal Gem

Not sure how I forgot to mention Occa Berry 0_o. Normal Gem + Explosion looks like a good idea for a last ditch attack and wall breaking tool, so i'll mention it.

AC mention Explosion to nullify non-Steel physical walls for other physical sweepers on CB Meta's team
AC mention that CB Meta appreciates greatly Magnezone support

will do.

Alongside Air Balloon & Leftovers, Lum Berry is also worth an AC mention for its ability to cure paralysis and burns. Adamant Nature is not totally a bad Nature, especially Metagross not holding Life Orb, since it comfortably survives EQ from Scarf Terrakion

Eh, I'm not really in favour of Adamant just because Metagross doesn't outspeed up to Scarf Terrakion, but i'll mention it. Lum Berry and all the other items sans Life Orb will be mentioned as alternatives for Metagross with an Adamant nature.

You mention hazard supports on the choice sets, but I believe this set wants hazards support the most in order to overwhelm the physical walls and pull off a successful one-time sweep

Wait, how did I miss mentioning hazard support on Agility? fixing that right now.

Mention Scary Face to make sweepers setting up on Metagross easier to revenge kill

Well, Metagross is always going to be stretched for moveslots with just his regular options, so I don't know where Scary Face could fit in a moveslot without something else able to do better in that moveslot.

Block & Explosion combo

Seems alright enough to make it in OO.

Explosion is still viable on the agility, as well as HP fire to hit skarmory. Does a trick room+gyro ball+hammer arm set have any viability?

I can see Explosion being viable, but how is Hidden Power Fire? Metagross just doesn't have the EVs to spare on powering up Hidden Power Fire without compromising either his attack or failing to outspeed Scarfers. And Metagross can't really do a Bronzong with Gyro Ball and Trick Room because it doesn't learn Trick Room.


Also, I think that I will de-slash Trick from Choice Band, mention it in AC, and place Thunder Punch in the slash it was occupying. When I used Trick, I never really found it that useful, as Metagross really does become much less threatening when it doesn't have a Choice Band, and Metagross already breaks up most walls with its attacking moves.

 

[yee]

I really don't understand the use of Bullet Punch on the Stealth Rock set, it's not going to OHKO Terrakion and isn't useful priority with so little power, it's physical bulk makes it worth just taking the hit. I would just go Mash / Hammer Arm / Zen to get the best coverage hitting all of the things Hammer Arm misses out on. Pursuit would also get more use than Bullet Punch, I would probably even use Toxic or Hidden Power Fire over Bullet Punch.

 

[alexwolf]

Just a question, that already has been asked, but why is Life Orb the main item on the mixed set?
Expert Belt seems way supeprior, as you don't miss any OHKO or 2HKO with any special move, while perserving Metagross's excellent bulk. Finally Expert Belt is better for bluffing a CB set, which is more popular than the Agility set that uses LO.

Is the 30% boost to Meteor Mash really worth losing the advantages of Expert Belt? If yes, why?

What about this one?

 

[Pocket]

Thanks for coming back to this analysis, Berserker Lord.

yee and ginganinja brought up some good points about the significance of Bullet Punch on the SR set over other moves, such as Pursuit, so my fellow QC mates and I might have to sleep and play-test on this one before giving a decisive answer.

Berserker Lord, have Bullet Punch come in handy when you used it? The power of Metagross's Bullet Punch is sad - it is 20% weaker than the SPECIALLY DEFENSIVE Scizor variant. I'd have to say Metagross would want to hold Life Orb to make Bullet Punch worthwhile.

Also, plz copy & paste Cherub Agent's Trick + Iron Ball sethttp://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3459446 - it was already uploaded.

Berserker Lord - Also, I think that I will de-slash Trick from Choice Band, mention it in AC, and place Thunder Punch in the slash it was occupying. When I used Trick, I never really found it that useful, as Metagross really does become much less threatening when it doesn't have a Choice Band, and Metagross already breaks up most walls with its attacking moves.

^ Yea, I agree - CB ThunderPunch would certainly allow Metagross to even cripple Skarmory & Slowbro, so I fully support this change!

Tyranitar can take care of Heatran, while Celebi can handle Rotom-W.

Actually, also mention Hydreigon, like you've initially had. Hydreigon would be a great lure for Heatran, who can then be disposed by Focus Blast / Earthquake / Earth Power / Surf.

Well, Metagross is always going to be stretched for moveslots with just his regular options, so I don't know where Scary Face could fit in a moveslot without something else able to do better in that moveslot.

OO is meant to be a section where we note moves that were unable to fit in any of the sets but may possibly be useful. Halving a Sweeper's Speed in half is an underappreciated tactic to get the upper hand, so I think it deserves a mention.

• Also mention the other options I mentioned, such as Block & Explosion / Iron Ball & Gyro Ball
• Don't forget to AC mention Explosion @ Normal Gem on the SR set. Life Orb is also worth a mention for not only boosting Explosion, but also its other moves

 

[Demoness]

Alexwolf: The whole problem with that line of thought is that you are in fact, NOT, bluffing a Choice Band set with Expert Belt. The power difference is huge, and any comptent player would easily make the deduction that Metagross is not Choice-locked. Also, while Agility is not all that common, it sure is more common then Mixed Metagross, so it can still effectively lure in physical walls.

yee: Yeah, I'm also in favour of removing Bullet Punch from the Stealth Rock set (or mentioning it in AC). The problem now is what should go in its place. I'm thinking Zen Headbutt and Pursuit, but i'm not sure if Zen Headbutt should be slashed first, or Pursuit, or Zen Headbutt being relegated to AC and Pursuit as the only third move, or Zen Headbutt getting third move, and Pursuit staying in AC. I think that I'm going to put Zen Headbutt as its own move, and keep Pursuit in AC. Thoughts?

Pocket: I planned to paste Iron Ball Metagross when I actually started writing as it has already passed Quality Control, and is on site. The reason that I didn't want to mention Scary Face is that if a set-up sweeper tries to set-up on Metagross, it really is a much better idea to just attack them and KO rather then possibly ending up losing Metagross just so something else can attempt to revenge kill. I'll mention Life Orb on the Stealth Rock set, but I also want to mention that you can remove Stealth Rock if something else is already setting it up, and make Metagross more of a tank.

 

[Pocket]

yee: Yeah, I'm also in favour of removing Bullet Punch from the Stealth Rock set (or mentioning it in AC). The problem now is what should go in its place. I'm thinking Zen Headbutt and Pursuit, but i'm not sure if Zen Headbutt should be slashed first, or Pursuit, or Zen Headbutt being relegated to AC and Pursuit as the only third move, or Zen Headbutt getting third move, and Pursuit staying in AC. I think that I'm going to put Zen Headbutt as its own move, and keep Pursuit in AC. Thoughts?

I would make Pursuit the primary slash and Bullet Punch secondary (you could move BP to AC, though). Zen Headbutt is also AC imo, since it has less utility.

Also change the alternative EV spread to 252 HP / 80 Atk / 176 SpD, since the slight investment in SpD in expense of HP doesn't really accomplish much in terms of improving Metagross's special defensiveness.

Finally, AC mention that Metagross can invest in some Speed to outrun min Speed Heatran / Bulk Up Breloom, so it can prevent Heatran from setting up Rocks with EQ. Specifically 64 Spe EVs to reach Speed of 192.

Pocket: I planned to paste Iron Ball Metagross when I actually started writing as it has already passed Quality Control, and is on site. The reason that I didn't want to mention Scary Face is that if a set-up sweeper tries to set-up on Metagross, it really is a much better idea to just attack them and KO rather then possibly ending up losing Metagross just so something else can attempt to revenge kill. I'll mention Life Orb on the Stealth Rock set, but I also want to mention that you can remove Stealth Rock if something else is already setting it up, and make Metagross more of a tank.

Ok, you can copy and paste Trick & Iron Ball when you're Copywriting. If you don't want to mention Scary Face in OO, then that's fine.

Don't mention that you can remove Stealth Rock, though, since that is the purpose of the set.

 

[Pocket]

Oh, you made most of the changes!! You forgot to OO mention Gyro Ball @ Iron Ball.

Remember to add Cherub Agent's Trick & Iron Ball set, and make sure that your Checks and Counters section is comprehensive (yet concise) and well-organized, as seen in twash's Checks and Counter Project.

That is all - great work, Berserker Lord!

QC Approved (2/3)

 

[Iconic]

QC Approved 3/3

 

[alexwolf]

Alexwolf: The whole problem with that line of thought is that you are in fact, NOT, bluffing a Choice Band set with Expert Belt. The power difference is huge, and any comptent player would easily make the deduction that Metagross is not Choice-locked. Also, while Agility is not all that common, it sure is more common then Mixed Metagross, so it can still effectively lure in physical walls.

Even if take the luring factor out of the equation, what about the bulk? Preserving Metagross's bulk is very important since he has quite a bit. So is MM missing any notable OHKOs or 2HKOs without Life Orb? If no then i can't see how LO is more useful...

 

[Demoness]

Thanks QC. Starting to write this up.

 

[alexwolf]

Ignoring me again?

 

[Rwhite84]

I could see the first set being a major pisser in the rain

 

[Zarco]

I came across this thread, and it's probably worth mentioning there's an error in the trick+iron ball set. The set calls for 20 SpD EVs, but describes that the speed EVs are necessary to outrun base 115s after the trick- you do in fact need 20 Spe EVs in place of the SpD ones to do this- I imagine it's just a typo.

 

[Fatecrashers]

gross