Metagross (Shuca Berry)

I have used this set to great effect in countering top threats such as Dragon Dance Gyarados. Its shuca berry is extremely effective at taking earthquakes from Flygon, Gyarados, and Dragonite.

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/metagross

Name: Shuca Berry Metagross
Move 1: Meteor Mash
Move 2: Earthquake
Move 3: Thunder punch
Move 4: Ice Punch/Explosion/Bullet Punch
Item: Shuca Berry
Ability: Clear Body
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 236 hp/252 atk/20 spe

Why this set should be on the site:
A) Has the bulk to tank any physical attack that has not been boosted and fire back with its powerful 405 attack.
B) One of the most effective counters to DD Gyarados and DD Dragonite (most Dragonites opt for earthquake at +1 because they risk a fire blast miss) as he can take the earthquake and fire back with the approriate punch.
C) Most effective on a offensive team as a defensive utility countering the aforementioned threats that give offensive teams problems.
D) This set has the surprise factor going for it as a non lead Shuca Metagross is unpopular.

Additional Comments:
A) A bulkier spread can be used with less attack and defense invested
B) Explosion should be slashed so Metagross will go out with a bang and destroy any non-ghost aside from Skarmory.
C) Bullet Punch can be used for priority if your team needs it and can be used to sweep lategame with everything weakened.
D) 20 speed ev's are to outspeed 16 speed Skarmory and Thunder Punch it to its death.

Teammates and Counters:
A) Rotom-a is a problem pokemon with this set as he resists all of the moves except for ice punch and can be will-o-wisped. Pairing this Metagross with a pursuiter such as Tyranitar can be useful to Pursuit the Rotom-a. This pairing is also useful because Metagross can weaken or kill bulky grounds such as Gliscor that Tyranitar has trouble with.
B) Zapdos is another problem pokemon as Zapdos resists steel and can use Roost to shrug off Ice Punches. Tyranitar is again useful here as he can switch in on Zapdos and can use the time to DD or threaten something with a CB Stone Edge.

So there is the set and comments. Hope you like it! I have used it to success on my offensive team and find it one of my favorite pokemon to use overall.
 
Sure you can switch into gyarados and dragonite on non attacking moves and kill them with thunderpunch and ice punch repectively, but why not just use scarfed rotom/jirachi? They essentially does the same job and isn't required to sacrifice itself. The only thing you lose out on with Rotom is Tyranitar unless you run Rotom Wash form. Type resist berries are mostly used to lure pokemon; not to counter them directly. Metagross definitely does not lure either Dragonite, Gyarados, nor Flygon due to the fact that they are known to pack Thunderpunch and/or Ice punch. The only viable berry to use on Metagross is Occa berry because of its ability to lure in Heatran and Infernape and OHKO with EQ. DD Tyranitar doesn't even want to be near Metagross so there goes that argument you could have made. Basically all the Pokemon this set is supposed to lure/counter and kill wouldn't want to be caught dead in front of Metagross which is a problem.

Why does this Metagross take out these Pokemon better?
 

aVocado

@ Everstone
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Best counter for Dragon Dance Gyarados is ScarfRachi.

Though it can't switch-in on an Earthquake, it can switch-in into any other attack, and preferably if it switches in on a DD.
 

remlabmez

@dacopboss
is a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
shuca berry is mentioned in lead analysis and that is good enough for me, obviously because its in the lead analysis doesnt mean it HAS to be a lead especially a pokemon like metagross who doesnt function as a suicide lead
 
Uh,

I don't think you can just say Scarf revege killers beat type-resist berry users just like that. If a player notices that a scarfed Rotom is the opponent's only answer to his offensive DD gyarados, then he's obviously not going to leave Gyarados in to be killed for free. If Jirachi or Rotom switch in on a DD and do not receive Leftovers recovery, or come in after a +1 Gyarados kills something, then it's obviously choiced. So a Scarfer isn't the most effective "counter".

This Metagross is almost guaranteed a kill on Gyarados, Dragonite, Tyranitar and such threats because the opponent is going to expect a free kill and stay in to attack. It can also act as an emergency answer to stuff like Crocune with Explosion.

However, I think the EVs can be refined further. If you move some from Atk into SpDef you'll be able to double up as a utility counter to Gengar, Starmie and random other threats to the team.

Just my thoughts.
 
Best counter for Dragon Dance Gyarados is ScarfRachi.
Do you even know what a counter is?

Anyway, Metagross has a fair amount of bulk and can survive things like Flygon EQ without much problems. LO Gyarados isn't extremely common to be worth using an entire set for it -- and I think this is the case here. I might be missing something, but I don't think Shuca really helps Metagross achieve something it hasn't been able to achieve before. It can live a Swampert EQ (for example) and just Explode on it's face, no Shuca needed. This is the case for many EQ users that are just not strong enough to KO it. Unless you give me more examples for how this set needs Shuca berry that isn't DD LO Gyara and uncommon friends, I don't see much use for this.

..Taking another look, it CAN beat LeadMamo, but like rem said, you could always mention Shuca in AC rather than make an entirely new set.
 

panamaxis

how many seconds in eternity?
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL and WCoP Champion
Used something similar before, worked well. As this is a utility counter why is Explosion better than Meteor Mash; what do you even need MM for really with the coverage by tpunch IP and EQ?

However, I think the EVs can be refined further. If you move some from Atk into SpDef you'll be able to double up as a utility counter to Gengar, Starmie and random other threats to the team.
This is a good point, the current EVs are probably not optimal, maybe we should just run enough to attack to score the essential OHKOs it needs and dump the rest in special defense?
 
Just for fun I ran some calcs with a spread of 252 HP, 64 Atk and 192 SpD:

+1 Adamant 252 Atk Gyarados EQ: 49.7% - 58.5%
+1 Adamant 252 Atk Dragonite EQ: 52.2% - 61.5%
LO Starmie Tbolt + Hydro Pump: 79.4% - 93.7% (never KOed even after Stealth Rock)
LO Gengar Shadow Ball: 41.8% - 49.5%

Ice Punch vs 252 HP Dragonite: 88.1% - 103.6% (KO even with two turns of Leftovers)
TPunch vs BulkyGyara: 95.1% - 112.4%

~
 

Setsuna

Prototype
is a Top Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
I agree on that this should be AC material in the lead set. Actually, here you can find Metagross's update which already covers this part.

I'm going to move this thread. Thank you anyways.
 
After discussing this a bit with Setsuna and Panamaxis, we decided to give this set another chance in QC. I personally think this set is pretty good, and different enough from the lead set to merit its own analysis. It simply just beats a lot of common threats in OU right now, and I wouldn't mind seeing it up there.
 

panamaxis

how many seconds in eternity?
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL and WCoP Champion
Explosion should probably replace Meteor Mash or have the slash as Explosion/Meteor Mash as checking the sweeper of choice and being around 50% or so leaves you room to explode later. The coverage between eq tpunch and icepunch is good enough that you don't really need MM that much, the only thing that I can see that is notable that you lose out on is against gengar (and azelf I suppose but they're usually always leading anyway)

Shimrit As's EVs look good to me, if people could give their opinions on them that'd be great.
 
Eh... those EVs look pretty standard to me. Sure you could have CB Gross without the Choice Band or you could use a MUCH bulkier EV spread and become one of the best Kingdra counters in the game. The EV spread I use is 252 HP / 16 Atk / 240 Def Adamant. This guarantees you 3HKO RestChesto Kingdra with Earthquake while just about never being 3HKOed by a +1 Waterfall with Leftovers. Spikes will ruin this but it doesn't prevent you from beating Kingdra with Explosion if need be. The EV spread also is never OHKOed by Gyarados' +1 Leftovers EQ, maxing out at 75%. It is likely it will die to a Life Orb one however. Also, instead of slashing Ice Punch / ThunderPunch / Explosion or whatever, you could have Trick + Iron Ball as a catch all. Cripple Gyarados and Dragonite, while also supporting your team by making Skarmory and Rotom-A weak to EQ if your opponent doesn't have said sweepers. The Attack EVs aren't much missed, as most of the time Explosion kills what it needs to and since this is a one time check to many Pokemon that will probably be the move you are using most often. I realize there is already a Trick + Iron Ball set on site but that strategy is still very effective on a tanking set such as this one. I do not like Skarmory setting up free Spikes on me.
 

Setsuna

Prototype
is a Top Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
I don't like the idea of Iron Ball + Trick, and primarily, that's not the premise of this set. One of the main things this set is destined to do is check both Gyarados and Dragonite and KO them back with T-punch or Ice Punch, respectively. Skarmory will at most set up one layer of Spikes, since you can opt to switch out or finish it off with either T-punch or Explosion if the bird is in KO range. This set checks a lot of stuff in the metagame ATM and starting to consider Trick and other strategies would just ruin its purpose and effectiveness, in my opinion.

On the topic of the EVs, I'd rather have something able to take hits from both sides of the spectrum nicely, than focusing Metagross on countering DD Kingdra; the 252 HP / 64 Atk / 192 SpD spread achieves this quality. By using this balanced spread, Metagross is able to take hits from special attackers such as Starmie and Gengar widely better than by using a physically defensive spread, while at the same time it retains enough physical defense to avoid being OHKOed by the EQs of Dragonite and Gyarados after a Dragon Dance.
 

aVocado

@ Everstone
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Do you even know what a counter is?
Being able to switch-in safely to a Pokemon, take a hit, outspeed/take another hit and still be able to KO that Pokemon.

Scarf'd Jirachi does it perfectly, but as i said, it can't switch-in on an Earthquake.

It can also switch in into a DD, outspeed and OHKO with Thunder Punch.
 

firecape

This is the end...
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Being able to switch-in safely to a Pokemon, take a hit, outspeed/take another hit and still be able to KO that Pokemon.

Scarf'd Jirachi does it perfectly, but as i said, it can't switch-in on an Earthquake.

It can also switch in into a DD, outspeed and OHKO with Thunder Punch.
No, you just described a check. A counter is something that can safely switch into all of a said Pokemon's commonly used moves and pose an immediate threat (in your example, Jirachi obviously can't switch into Earthquake). For instance, Quagsire counters Kyogre because it takes less than 50% from Choice Specs Ice Beam and has Recover.
 

Setsuna

Prototype
is a Top Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Hey, I'd be nice if other QCers could review the information that's in the OP and weigh in! Thanks in advance!
Also, it wouldn't hurt to hear what the poster of this set has to say about the relevant details that have been outlined so far.
 
To be honest, this set hasn't been touched in weeks, and the OP never replied to what any of us QCers said. Based on inactivity, I am locking this thread. It's a shame, I like this set too.

Edit: Nevermind, Setsuna apparently PM'd the author to see if he's still interested. I'll leave this open for a few more days for him to respond. If it goes inactive again, though, it's getting locked.
 
No result ever came from the last time this was addressed more than a week and a half ago. If someone else would like to take on this set in the future, they should repost it to QC. Moved to L&O.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top