Middle Cup Discussion Thread

Here is my updated MC pokemon list.

Ivysaur (UU) 60/62/63/80/80/60
Charmeleon (UU) 58/64/58/80/65/80
Wartortle (BL) 59/63/80/65/80/58
Metapod (NU) 50/20/55/25/25/30
Kakuna (NU) 45/25/50/25/25/35
Pidgeotto (UU/NU) 63/60/55/50/50/71
Pikachu (OU) 35/55/30/50/40/90
Nidorina (NU/UU) 70/62/67/55/55/56
Nidorino (UU) 61/72/57/55/55/65
Clefairy (NU/UU) 70/45/48/60/65/35
Jigglypuff (BL/UU) 115/45/20/45/25/20
Golbat (OU) 75/80/70/65/75/90
Gloom (BL) 60/65/70/85/75/40
Poliwhirl (BL) 65/65/65/50/50/90
Kadabra (OU) 40/35/30/120/70/105
Machoke (BL) 80/100/70/50/60/45
Weepinbell (UU) 65/90/50/85/45/55
Graveler (UU) 55/95/115/45/45/35
Magneton (OU) 50/60/95/120/70/70
Haunter (OU) 45/50/45/115/55/95
Rhydon (Suspect) 80/85/95/30/30/25
Chansey (OU) 250/5/5/35/105/50
Seadra (OU) 55/65/95/95/45/85
Electabuzz (OU) 65/83/57/95/85/105
Magmar (OU) 65/95/57/100/85/93
Dragonair (BL) 61/84/65/70/70/70
Bayleef (UU) 60/62/80/63/80/60
Quilava (UU) 58/64/58/80/65/80
Croconaw (BL/UU) 65/80/80/59/63/58
Togetic (BL/UU) 55/40/85/80/105/40
Flaaffy (NU) 70/55/55/80/60/45
Marill (NU) 70/20/50/20/50/40
Skiploom (UU/NU) 55/40/50/45/65/80
Piloswine (OU) 100/100/80/60/60/50
Porygon2 (Suspect) 85/80/90/105/95/60
Pupitar (BL) 70/84/70/65/70/51
Grovyle (OU) 50/65/45/85/65/95
Combusken (UU/NU) 60/85/60/85/60/55
Marshtomp (OU/BL) 70/85/70/60/70/50
Silcoon (NU) 50/35/55/25/25/15
Cascoon (NU) 50/35/55/25/25/15
Lombre (UU) 60/50/50/60/70/50
Nuzleaf (BL) 70/70/40/60/40/60
Kirlia (NU) 38/35/35/65/55/50
Vigoroth (OU) 80/80/80/55/55/90
Loudred (UU/NU) 84/71/43/71/43/48
Lairon (BL) 60/90/140/50/50/40
Roselia (OU/BL) 50/60/45/100/80/65
Vibrava (BL/UU) 50/70/50/50/50/70
Dusclops (OU) 40/70/130/60/130/25
Sealeo (OU/BL) 90/60/70/75/70/45
Shelgon (OU) 65/95/100/60/50/50
Metang (OU/BL) 60/75/100/55/80/50
Grotle (BL/UU) 75/89/85/55/65/36
Monferno (OU) 64/78/52/78/52/81
Prinplup (BL/UU) 64/66/68/81/76/50
Staravia (BL/OU) 55/75/50/40/40/80
Luxio (BL/UU) 60/85/49/60/49/60
Gabite (OU) 68/90/65/50/55/82

Average: 66/

Togetic from OU to BL/UU
Staravia from BL to BL/OU
Kirlia from UU/NU to NU
Graveler from BL to UU
Pupitar from BL/UU to BL
Added stats, ONLY HALF DONE
On another note I think we should wait until Gen 5 is out b4 we try to make MC official.
Why is Togetic OU? Because it can Baton Pass?
He's OU because he can Nasty Pass or Flinch Haxs although now that I think about he may be BL/UU because of his/her sucky stats.


Also I think we should have a vote for the suspect and near suspect pokemon. The system in my opinion should be in Bold.

Chansey: OU or Uber
Rhydon: OU or Uber
Porygon2: OU or Uber

I'll start it off my mine.

Chansey: OU
Rhydon: Uber
Porygon2: Uber

If their are any other pokemon you think should be voted on or tier changes on my list just post it.
how can he flinch hax without air slash not to mention his terrible offensive stats.
t-wave + Headbutt
After all flinch hax isn't about hitting terribly hard, so Togetic's low Att hardly matters. In NU Dunsparce does it with bite, for Pete's sake.

I don't feel like I have played enough to make a truly educated vote on Rhydon or P2. I have seen the Chansey's and don't have too much trouble with them. Maybe, when Rhydon is gone Chansey's will be more problematic but as of now I don't think I would ban Chansey.
Rhydon is a strange case. Every time I face it, I feel like I can take it down without a ton of trouble, but when I start to theorymon about it, it seems overpowered.

Contrast Porygon2 who is a complete powerhouse with great defenses, great offenses (yes plural), great support options and recovery. I definitely feel it is Uber material, but I also think we should wait for B/W to make any major tier decisions.

Chansey, on the other hand, is not that threatening. There are plenty of powerful physical/mixed attackers, and she is complete set-up bait for anything with Taunt or Sub. OU certainly, but not Uber.


Fear is the mind-killer
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My limited experience with Rhydon in Middle Cup is similar to my extensive use of Rampardos in OU with the Rock Polish @Focus Sash set. I am pretty much guaranteed to kill something that doesn't pack priority, and if I play my cards right, I can take out two Pokémon without the intent of sweeping.

Although Rhydon not quite as frail as Rampardos, its 4x weaknesses are horrible in this metagame.
So Buckles you are

Rhydon: ???
Porygon2: Uber
Chansey: OU

Also fyi i haven't ever accually played MC BECAUSE THERES NO ONE EVER ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Rhydon is OU, but I would not be opposed to a suspect test.
Porygon2 needs a suspect test.
Chansey is not broken and anyone saying she is is wrong, I'm sorry.


Fear is the mind-killer
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
So Buckles you are

Rhydon: ???
Porygon2: Uber
Chansey: OU

Also fyi i haven't ever accually played MC BECAUSE THERES NO ONE EVER ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The irc channel #middlecup usually has a couple of people on in the evening (US), most of who will gladly jump on the CAP server and play you. Make an effort.
Can we cut the crap on tier lists allready: there are no usage stats. Also testing wont be done until Gen 5 at earliest, as it is a waste of time otherwise.

Also, I frequent #middlecup aswell, but I'm european, so I suppose im missing out on most of the people here ;_;
Rhydon: Uber
Porygon2: Uber
Chansey: OW

This isn't really accurate since a lot of people have Rhydon in their team and are lazy to change it so they simply vote Rhydon as OU. Rhydon is more broken than Porygon2.

Here is my updated MC pokemon list.

Ivysaur (UU)
Charmeleon (UU)
Wartortle (BL)
Metapod (NU)
Kakuna (NU)
Pidgeotto (UU/NU)
Pikachu (OU)
Nidorina (UU)
Nidorino (NU/UU)
Clefairy (NU/UU)
Jigglypuff (BL/UU)
Golbat (OU)
Gloom (BL)
Poliwhirl (BL)
Kadabra (OU)
Machoke (BL)
Weepinbell (UU)
Graveler (BL)
Magneton (OU)
Haunter (OU)
Rhydon (Suspect/Uber)
Chansey (OU)
Seadra (OU)
Electabuzz (OU)
Magmar (OU)
Dragonair (BL)

Bayleef (UU)
Quilava (UU)
Croconaw (BL/UU)
Togetic (BL/UU)
Flaaffy (NU)
Marill (NU)
Skiploom (UU/NU)
Piloswine (OU)
Porygon2 (Suspect)
Pupitar (BL/UU)

Grovyle (OU)
Combusken (UU/NU)
Marshtomp (OU/BL)
Silcoon (NU)
Cascoon (NU)
Lombre (UU)
Nuzleaf (BL)
Kirlia (UU/NU)
Vigoroth (OU)
Loudred (UU/NU)
Lairon (BL)
Roselia (OU/BL)
Vibrava (BL/UU)
Dusclops (OU)
Sealeo (OU/BL)
Shelgon (OU)
Metang (OU/BL)

Grotle (BL/UU)
Monferno (OU)
Prinplup (BL/UU)
Staravia (BL)
Luxio (BL/UU)
Gabite (OU)

Togetic from OU to BL/UU

On another note I think we should wait until Gen 5 is out b4 we try to make MC official.
Can you reply to my opinions? Kirlia goes down, for sure, as there are much better Kadabra and Trick Room Users. Graveler is at most in UU, overshadowed by Lairon, Pupitar and such (no, I'm not listing Rhydon). Marill could be higher cause the Attack EVs double, but I doubt it. Staravia and Luxio can be useful in an intimidating way *coughcough*, which makes them better at least in some ways than Magneton and Togetic, and that is what makes Staravia > Pidgeotto. Although Magmar has high stats, it's probably not going to stay in OU due to Stealth Rock. And Nuzleaf shouldn't be BL, because just simply being the only Dark type doesn't help enough. If you switch in on Psychic, Kadabra kills you with Signal Beam. I do agree that it's a viable Sunny Day Sweeper though... Also, Vibrava is a bit underrated. 70 Base attack with STAB Outrage isn't bad at all in MC, and with U-turn I foresee another Choice Scarf Scouter + Revenge Killer. There is also fierce competition for the best Grass sweeper under non sunny conditions. Obviously you think it's Grovyle, but watch out for Ivysaur, Grotle, and Roselia. Ivysaur and Roselia are both let down by Psychic weakness. Roselia's low STATs are balanced by spikes. Grotle is quite useful for checking Rhydon if it ends up being not banned. Marshtomp doesn't have a big impact like Swampert on the metagame, but Grass is still important for dealing with stuff like Seadra. Now, due to a lot of Haunters, Kadabras and Porygon 2s running around, Chansey is used more than Blissey was used, so Machoke may become higher, although Monferno may be better. Machoke still sports No Guard Dynamicpunch though, which is useful for confusing opposing pokemon. Quilava and Charmeleon's only difference is movepool, just to note. The best water sweeper is Seadra by far, Sealeo in Trick Room, both followed closely by Marshtomp. The others generally aren't that good, except Croconaw which is OK. If you are looking for Psychic and Ghost counters, (or simply Kadabra and Haunter counters) that aren't Chansey, don't go for Nuzleaf; actually, just go with Chansey. Be fine with her. ;)

Now for the Sunny day-ers, Weepinbell > Nuzleaf for sure, Skiploom sees some use too. With Solarbeam, Ivysaur comes also. The boosted fire power on Magmar helps it balance the SR weakness. Trick Room; as for Trick Room, Rhydon WILL be unstoppable if it doesn't get banned, Grotle is very useful, Marill becomes much more viable, and so does other stuff become slightly better like Shelgon, Lairon, Combusken, and Sealeo would be better. The other weather effects don't see much use. No auto Hail or Sandstorm generally means they aren't worth using, and Lombre as the only Swift Swimmer, plus that Magneton, and maybe Electabuzz and Flaaffy are the only pokemon that gets a lot out of Thunder means that Rain isn't all that useful either.

Also, watch out for typos, like Cascoom and Pidgeott.


Fear is the mind-killer
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Also fyi i haven't ever accually played MC BECAUSE THERES NO ONE EVER ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Also, dont make your "own" tier list based off speculations of a game you've never actually played. If you haven't played yet, wait until you get the chance to play and see what's actually going on. There's at least a handful of tier lists already floating around, and none of them have established anything because the metagame hasn't even truly started yet. We don't know exactly how many middle cup eligible Pokémon there will be in Generation 5, but we are to expect a plethora of new moves, abilities, and items. As of tomorrow (or whenever the base stats for all of the Pokémon are leaked), any current tier lists mean nothing. Any "votes" being cast will not be taken seriously - it takes hundreds of first hand battles and an established community of players for any sort of voting to take place.
Hey everyone! The site for the Middle Cup Tier has recently been created. Go the middle cup social group, and there's a link there.
Rhydon: OU
Porygon2: Uber
Chansey: Uber

Just to show my support of all new formats, I'm working on a team for this infant-stage Cup of Many Treasures.

And, just saying this, but Rock Polish Graveler could do stuff. And Skiploom LOLs at it's felow Grass types, with Sunny Day and Flying-typing to buddy up with Charmeleon. And although I'm just knocking on doors here, we need protection from the Ghost Lantern. That thing kills cats, monkeys and electric mice. Get the Chanseys.
Puffinrock, what exactly do you think Chansey is gonna do to Ghost/Fire lantern? Chansey's gonna sit there spamming Wish while the lantern sits behind a substitute and gets up to +6 SpA/SpD with Calm Mind, and she can't even switch out due to Shadow Tag. Chansey isn't a counter to Ghost/Fire, she's setup bait. To deal with Ghost/Fire, you're gonna need fairly fast sweepers (its Speed is its biggest problem, at a crap-tastic base 55), not walls that are easy to set up on. 60/60/60 defences aren't awful by MC standards, but they are still low. As long as you have some decent power behind your attacks, Ghost/Fire shouldn't be too hard to deal with.

Of course, this is all just theorymon, because it's gonna abuse Shadow Tag to kill everything on your team anyway.

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