Middle Cup Discussion Thread

JockeMS

formerly SuperJOCKE
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Another interesting thing is the Steel types: only Metang and Lairon are allowed. Lairon has the rather threatening Head Smash off 90 base attack and 60/140/50 defenses. Metang has the more balanced 60/100/80 defenses, but has only a 75 base attack Meteor Mash to threaten opponents.

Also, no Dark types in the tier at all. Great for Kadabra and Haunter.
Maybe someone as mentioned this but what about Magneton and Nuzleaf?
 

Delta 2777

Machampion
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Marshtomp?
it outspeeds and OHKOs with Surf
Marshtomp is outsped unless you run a crazy amount of speed (at least 216 EVs), and at that point, assuming your defense EVs are 252/40, you are still taking 79% minimum from Rhydon's Earthquake. Anyway, this is mostly irrelevant since nobody runs 216+ Speed EVs to outrun Rhydon.
And Megahorn isnt really viable what you want to hit with that, Kadabra?
Try bulky Grass types like Grotle?
 
I always thought about maybe mentioning something exactly like this, but never had the nerve, besides, I probably wasn't the first anyway, if this becomes official it will be great, every tier plays itself out, and interested to see how it might
 

BurningMan

fueled by beer
Try Grotle?
fixed that ;)
point is grotle is pretty much the only reason to use it and he isnt used much(grass is just a bad typing for a defensive pokemon).
Crunch/Superpower is more useful because dusclops/chansey are used much more.

And i already said that rhydon will outsped tomp unless you run this kinda crazy amount of speed evs.
 
We can't assume Rhydon is easily revenge killed. Please remember that a lot of RP Rhydons are Jolly, meaning they can get the jump on Adamant Scarfbite, Scarf P2 and the rare Scarf Monferno with ease. Marshtomp is not a viable counter; I won't prattle on, but it's basically not bulky enough to counter Rhydon reliably every time. Grotle is a better bet, as Megahorn is rare and Stone Edge/Rock Slide can sometimes miss; Earthquake is hitting Marshtomp every time.

I'd argue that Piloswine is quite viable; I find myself at a bit of a loss when I come across one, as it's very easy to revenge kill regardless of whether it's CB or not (with Croconaw, Monferno, or even Haunter), but it's incredibly hard to switch into due to the fact that pretty much everything gets hit hard by Earthquake, and the things that don't (Grass-types, Golbat) get raped by Ice Shard/Fang. Piloswine makes a decent Electabuzz counter too, though that might not be enough to cement its status as standard since Electabuzz isn't seen all that much at the moment.
 
Optimusje submitted a tourney. It's probably dead right now, with the facilitators of NFE laughing over its ashes.

Anyway, if more people got on IRC, then it would be more enjoyable, but.... ah well :/

Rhydon is broken, it has ridiculous stats, can sweep the metagame under common conditions and unless you use something like grotle, you're screwed.
 
Even if the Tourney is Dead, The topic will not die!

Anyways, just noting, EVs are maxed out at 248 in MC (I think).
 
4 things:

1.) I'm just thinking wouldn't Pikachu be a threat with Light Orb. With essentially base 110 Attack and base 100 SpA he'd be a threat to be reckoned with (Not to mention with his anime powers his Electric attacks can hit Ground types).

2.) I'm thinking of resubmitting a MC tourney again so I need a current ban list and tier list.

3.) Is MC played at lvl 50 or 100.

4.) After I know all this and maybe more I'll try to submit a MC article/guide.
 
1.) I'm just thinking wouldn't Pikachu be a threat with Light Orb. With essentially base 110 Attack and base 100 SpA he'd be a threat to be reckoned with (Not to mention with his anime powers his Electric attacks can hit Ground types).
Pika is a threat.

2.) I'm thinking of resubmitting a MC tourney again so I need a current ban list and tier list.
Both are undecided. Porygon2 is the pokemon with the most suspicion as to being broke, with Rhydon closely behind.

3.) Is MC played at lvl 50 or 100.
Level fifty.

4.) After I know all this and maybe more I'll try to submit a MC article/guide.
Cool, cool.

@Groshi: We need a tournament or ladder or something so we can test MC on a regular-er basis before we can talk about bannings.
 
How does a pokemon get banned again? Like, being used too much or something?

And Pikachu should not be banned. If you are considering banning Pikachu, stuff like Chansey, Magneton, Dusclops will go with it and it defeats the point of middle cup.
 
How does a pokemon get banned again? Like, being used too much or something?

And Pikachu should not be banned. If you are considering banning Pikachu, stuff like Chansey, Magneton, Dusclops will go with it and it defeats the point of middle cup.
When did I say anything about banning Pikachu?
 
Okay, nobody gets banned yet.

Just sayin. You can't ban someone from looking broken, or preforming well. Only if it essentially can kill things without counters, it shouldn't be banned.

So whens the tournament? It hasen't been confirmed yet right?
 
It's not confirmed and so at the moment should their be more testing b4 and tourney or should I submit it.

Also I could use some ev calcs (how many evs to a point) and I don't exactly have a prize so if some1 could help me out with that.
 
Okay, nobody gets banned yet.

Just sayin. You can't ban someone from looking broken, or preforming well. Only if it essentially can kill things without counters, it shouldn't be banned.

So whens the tournament? It hasen't been confirmed yet right?
Rhydon doesn't have counters. There are things called "checks".

Otherwise Salamence and Garchomp wouldn't be banned. There are Ice shards from Weavile and Mamoswine. And certain Hidden Power Ices. They are banned because they have a STAB Attack that only one type resists, and they have super effective moves (Another STAB in Garchomp's Cade) against that type (steel). As for Rhydon; Well, that attack is OMG in MC, even higher than Magneton and Kadabra's Special Attack. It does have a slow speed and glaring weaknesses, but a true counter for it is hard if it switches in on the right pokemon. For example, it switches in on a Chansey, and proceeds with an attack, or subsitute (rock polish is not recommended since Chansey may status it). Chances are Rhydon will outspeed Chansey since Chansey doesn't run Speed Evs, and: (Note: Stone Edge is generally not used due to it's bad coverage for it's counters; e.g. Marshtomp and Grotle. Megahorn is quite useful to deal with Grotle, but Rhydon doesn't learn any Grass moves to counter Marshtomp)

EDIT: I forgot that Grotle wasn't part Ground... But Megahorn is still the best switch in move, and does lethal damage to everything except for Dusknoir and Haunter (I think...)END EDIT

Here is the prediction list.

1. Rhydon uses Attack. Chansey dies.
2. Rhydon uses Attack. Chansey switches. Incomer suffers major damage.
3. Rhydon uses Substitute. Chasey Statuses. Chansey wastes turn.
4. Rhydon uses Substitute. Chansey Switches. Rhydin gets free hit on incomer.

Basically it's always win for Rhydon in this case. Note that this is just an example case, which is only hypothetical, although Chansey is quite common in MC...

Let's see how good Grotle and Marshtomp are at counter it now. (OK, there are other Water and Grass types out there, but they are just checks for Rhydon. They either are Outsped or too weak against other pokemon. In the former case, Rhydon kills it. In the latter case, Rhydon switches out. I'll list the pokemon just in case you are wondering):<br />
<br />
Piloswine:
STAB Ice Shard, but you just swich Monferno or something else in and Pwn it.

Seadra:
Without Swift Swim it really is downgraded. Just get Chansey, Electabuzz or a grass in. Also can't switch in on Rhydon.

Sealeo:
Too slow to be useful. Rhydon is probably running Plus Speed Nature anyways.

Ivysaur:
One of the better checks. But can't switch in onto Rhydon.

Bayleef:
Ivysaur is better. Has Megahorn Weakness.

Grovyle:
This guy is actually quite interesting. But it's too fragile for Rhydon (switch ins).

Wartortle:
Useless against all others. Only Rapid spinner makes it valuable, but Rhydon switches out.

Crocanow:
No reason to run surf. Croconaw without Life Orb can't OHKO it if it runs Max Def. If Rhydon doesn't run Max Def just switch out.

Prinplup:
Uselss against everything else. The other water starters are suprerior (like how Quilava and Charmeleon are forgotton, Combusken is Ok, but everyone uses Monferno (or Magmar))

Kadabra:
It probably won't get to switch into Rhydon anyways. If it does somehow, switch out to something like Chansey. Or Nuzleaf (Just Kidding).

Haunter:
What Kadabra said. Other than that, Normals wall it pretty bad since it doesn't have Focus Blast so switch in Porygon 2 or Vigoroth or Loudred (lol)
It also has an easier time switching in due to Earthquake being useless and Megahorn being near useless.

Other Pokemon like Weepinbell or Marill are generally too weak to do anything else other than hitting Rhydon with a super effective attack.

Now let's get on to Marshtomp and Grotle;

Marshtomp:
The main thing that makes Marshtomp quite good against Rhydon is not only because of the Water damage it deals, but also it's resistance to Stone Edge.
a 252 EV Waterfall vs. 252 EV Defense Rhydon = 78.6% - 93.4%, which means it won't KO. On the other hand, Rhydon's Mega horn does (0 Ev for Marshtomp, 252 EV for Rhydon) is 63.3% - 73.7%. Earthquake does 78.3% - 92.2%. If Rhydon gets an attack on Marshtomp when it switches in, or gets Substitue up, Marshtomp cannot counter it that badly. Marshtomp doesn't really have a reason to run Surf anyways. And if it does, it's purpose would probably just be to get rid of Rhydon.

Grotle:
Now this guy is weak to Megahorn and is slower than Rhydon, but if Rhydon doesn't run Megahorn Rhydon will find a hard time kiling it Grotle's Seed Bomb does 79.8% - 95.7%, which is quite good, since if Rhydon doesn't run max defense, or has prior SR damage, it might be OHKOed. Megahorn will OHKO Grotle for sure, but Earthquake only does 32% - 38.1%, and Stone Edge does 64.3% - 76.3%. Still, if Rhydon does Prior damage on the switch, Grotle dies.

Yeah, I didn't mean to write this long >.>

By any chance, Rhydon is a very strong Pokemon in MC.
I'm not saying it should be banned immediately. Lets just see how it goes.
 
Anyways, just noting, EVs are maxed out at 248 in MC (I think).
No. IDK if this is the ingame behavior or an oversight in Shoddy; but 4 to 8 EVs give you 1 stat point.

I.E. if you use 8 EVs in HP you gain 1 point, but if you spread it between HP and Defence you get 2 points.
 
yes, guys, get on MC IRC...

And for that thing, Marshtomp probably won't OHKO with Waterfall at 0 Def Evs.
 
Sorry, how do you connect to the MC IRC

E: NVM

EE: Why don't you get on MC IRC

EEE: On other notes the stat equation for lvl 50 pokemon is

HP = floor(BS + (IV / 2) + (EV / 8) + 60)
Atk, Def, SpA, SpD, Spd = floor((BS + (IV / 2) + (EV / 8) + 5) × NAT)

BS = The Base Stat of the pokemon.
IV = The IV's of the pokemon.
EV = The EV's of the pokemon.
NAT = The Nature modifier for the pokemon.
Lowering = 0.9
Normal = 1.0
Raising = 1.1

The EV's are the first 4 raise the stat by 1 and every 8 from there raise the stat by 1.
 
It's not like Middle cup options are huge. Not all Pokémon belong in 3-stage evolutions, and many who do are either too broken (especially ones originally meant to be fully evolved, such as Rhydon) or too...obsolete. But nevertheless, it seems like an interesting metagame.
 

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