Middle Cup ORAS

sin(pi)

lucky n bad
Wait Light Ball is banned? I am unaware of this and can you explain why it is banned?
Pikachu @ Light Ball
Ability: Static
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
IVs: 30 HP / 30 Def
- Volt Tackle
- Brick Break
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Knock Off

I don't play this metagame so take my comments with a grain of salt, but with this set and rocks up, Pikachu 2HKOs (at worst) the entirety of the S down to A- rank Pokémon. The exceptions are: physically defensive versions of Doublade, Sliggoo, Roselia and Marshtomp (Brick Break is exclusively for Piloswine so you can slash VS or something in its place), and specially defensive Quillidan. All of those bar Rose/Quil lack reliable recovery.
It probably beats most of the rest of the tier, but I couldn't be bothered to calc them all. In addition, it has a great base 90 speed, and has access to Nasty Plot as well as FakeOut OR Espeed (incompatible with each other), and a few cool coverage options, though there's a lot of compatibility issues.

Eg of Nasty Plot:

Pikachu @ Light Ball
Ability: Lightning Rod
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def
- Nasty Plot
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Surf
 
Pikachu @ Light Ball
Ability: Static
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
IVs: 30 HP / 30 Def
- Volt Tackle
- Brick Break
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Knock Off

I don't play this metagame so take my comments with a grain of salt, but with this set and rocks up, Pikachu 2HKOs (at worst) the entirety of the S down to A- rank Pokémon. The exceptions are: physically defensive versions of Doublade, Sliggoo, Roselia and Marshtomp (Brick Break is exclusively for Piloswine so you can slash VS or something in its place), and specially defensive Quillidan. All of those bar Rose/Quil lack reliable recovery.
It probably beats most of the rest of the tier, but I couldn't be bothered to calc them all. In addition, it has a great base 90 speed, and has access to Nasty Plot as well as FakeOut OR Espeed (incompatible with each other), and a few cool coverage options, though there's a lot of compatibility issues.

Eg of Nasty Plot:

Pikachu @ Light Ball
Ability: Lightning Rod
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def
- Nasty Plot
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Surf
Yeah, basically this. Even before light ball, pikachu's offenses aren't *that* underwhelming- and with them it has very ridiculous power. Furthermore, its tied for 5th fastest pokemon in the tier, can switch moves, and even gets a pivoting move.
 

Funbot28

Porque yo soy tu veneno
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Pikachu would become the immaculate offensive pokemon with the Light Ball equipped. Its godlike stats coupled with amazing STABs and coverage would leave it with no guaranteed switchins. Leave it banned.
 

Cheryl.

Celesteela is Life
Has anyone hot proof it is broken, like a replay?
I haven't seen a single Pikachu, but calcs alone would lead me to believe it's insanely powerful with Light Ball equipped. It's probably not as good in practice due to all the revenge killers and how frail it is.
 
Fully invested in each, (without a boosting nature), it has the equivalent of 160/150 (which isn't anywhere near broken in standard, but very well may be here).
Pikachu's bulk is appalling, though.
To be fair a lot of the offensive 'mons here really can't take a hit either (except maybe Duoblade and offensive Porygon). 160/150 offenses seems pretty insane (Pikachu also gets Espeed and is quite fast already).
 
I think that Pikachu wasn't as much of an issue when we had Kadabra who was the best way to revenge anything. After the loss of Kadabra and the lack of good walls (most rely on Rest, like Sliggoo. Some use Pain Split, like Dusclops. Others are straight up bad, like Bayleaf) it becomes difficult to deal with offense that can bolster a +2 priority move. I think that if Pikachu didn't get Espeed it wouldn't be as much of an issue. But the ability to have such a powerful priority move is extremely scary and somewhat overpowering.
 

Threw

cohiba
I think you guys are failing to put this in perspective. I'm not convinced that Light Ball is broken. Pikachu hits 398 with it (I'm taking the special attacking set, because honestly the physical set seems super meh and the fact that it has even 4 counters in such an overwhelmingly frail tier is kinda sad, especially considering stuff like Buzz and Frog have maybe one or two - physical bulk is a lot more common in this tier than special bulk), which sounds like a lot, but for context Electabuzz hits 375 with LO while Kadabra hit 440 with LO. Pika's Speed tier is nothing amazing and it manages to have worse overall bulk than even Kadabra. A lot of priority eats it for breakfast, and it can never get a chance to set up NP. I'm probably the only one here who's actually used it, since I wasn't aware Light Ball was banned at the time. I felt very disappointed with the results and immediately swapped it for Electabuzz. In this tier, 30 more Speed is worth a lot more than 23 more SpA. To say it has 160/150 or Mewtwo-like stats is deceptive, because any Pokemon at that level will also be carrying at least a Life Orb. Mewtwo hits 529 with one, so using it as a one-to-one comparison makes very little sense.

e: unfix has spoken

e2: fair point, we'll wait for Mazz to speak
 
it's been banned since middle cup's inception, and i carried it over as ryan intended. it's not fair to allow it i don't think, since why we would ban eviolite and not that? it's pretty uniform across oms that light ball is banned in metagames where pikachu COULD be viable with it because it's just plain stupid.
I realize it's been banned for so long I was just saying that if it wasn't banned before it should be now. An easy line to draw is with Soul Dew on the latis. Same concept, both are viable in OU w/o the item and with the item they become stupid.
 
Mazz if you do decide to keep it banned make sure to add in 'Light Ball' to the ban list so if people want to implement it they get the correct rule set.
 

Cheryl.

Celesteela is Life

Pidgeotto @ Life Orb
Ability: Tangled Feet
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hurricane
- Heat Wave
- Roost
- Work Up / U-Turn / Hidden Power Grass

So something I've been having some tests with is Pidgeotto, and I think it's a really underrated mon in this meta. Pidgeotto's stats may not look like much, but it has a real gem of a move in Hurricane, being the only user of it in Middle Cup, and with it's high BP and STAB, it's actually pretty strong. Pidgeotto also has some decent coverage as well in Heat Wave to hit Steel-types and HP Grass to hit Rhydon and other Rock-types. Work Up can make Pidgeotto even more powerful, helping it get KOs on stuff like Careful Doublade at +1, and can make even Sliggoo fear a Hurricane. Sadly Pidgeotto doesn't have the best Speed stat, making it revenge killed by a lot of mons in the meta, so it fits nicely on Sticky Web teams to help with this speed problem. Overall, Pidgeotto isn't the best mon ever (Hurricane misses are tragic) due to it's meh stats, but it makes up for it in a STAB Hurricane and good coverage, and is one of the more underrated mons in the current metagame I think and should be used more.

+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Pidgeotto Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sliggoo: 103-122 (58.8 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 2HKOs Modest Sliggoo at +1
252+ SpA Life Orb Pidgeotto Hidden Power Grass vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Rhydon: 203-244 (112.1 - 134.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO Kills offensive Rhydon
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Pidgeotto Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Doublade: 143-169 (86.1 - 101.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Pidgeotto Heat Wave vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Doublade: 146-174 (89 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Pidgeotto Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Prinplup: 140-165 (82.3 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Pidgeotto Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Prinplup: 94-110 (55.2 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Pidgeotto Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Metang: 104-125 (62.2 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Pidgeotto Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Metang: 159-187 (95.2 - 111.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
 
A few things I want to mention in brief:
  • Light ball is banned, and I'm not about to have this argument. Pikachu is gooberishly powerful with it, and if Kadabra is a good comparable, then its banning should be a good indicator for where I stand in terms of Light Ball
  • That Hunger Metagames tour looks cool, I won't be able to participate in it due to exams, but please PM me any and all available Middle Cup replays so that I can make use of them in the OP
  • Pidgeotto is ass, but have fun with that
Also, the analyses are progressing, but slower than I anticipated. Once we hit the half-way point and get those on-site (hopefully sooner than later), I'll start a tournament strictly based on Middle Cup. I might even be a tad obtuse and make it a double-elimination just to increase the exposure and amount of good replays / feedback.

And I'll be updating the Viability Rankings - personally - sometime in the next few days. I've tried to get a few people together and work on them but I haven't had any luck. Once I have those changes made, feel free to crucify me contest or support any changes here.
 
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Funbot28

Porque yo soy tu veneno
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
So where are the analyses going to be implemented exactly? I won't imagine on site because there is no playable ladder.
 
So where are the analyses going to be implemented exactly? I won't imagine on site because there is no playable ladder.
We do actually have a format page on the dex here, so that's where these "micro-analyses" we've been working on will be once uploaded. Not sure on the timeframe though
 

Funbot28

Porque yo soy tu veneno
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
We do actually have a format page on the dex here, so that's where these "micro-analyses" we've been working on will be once uploaded. Not sure on the timeframe though
Oh my bad, I thought it needed a ladder to do so (which honesty it should have at this point).
 
I'd like to make a nom:

Vanillish C+ -> C

Just looking at Vanillish it really doesn't perform with any of the other C+ mons. Not only is its special movepool limited to Blizzard, Ice Beam, Flash Cannon, Signal Beam, Water Pulse (lol), Uproar, whatever Hidden Power you want, and a bunch of other ice moves that are overshadowed by Ice Beam. While a look at some C+ mons like Braixen who has a much better movepool of Fireblast, Flamethrower, Overheat, Psychic, Grass Knot, and what ever Hidden Power. Braixen also gets Will-O-Wisp and Solar Beam for weather abuse. And comparing Vanillish to other Ice-types in the tier. Well, first of all its stats are very meh. It has a nice Sp.Atk but that is pretty much it. Vanillish also doesn't get Freeze Dry which only Piloswine does so that doesn't help it at all. Vanillish, despite being so frail is really slow meaning it needs to use Weak Armor and Autotomize to raise its speed. This makes Vanillish super weak to priority, especially when things like Gurdurr and Machoke roam the tier. However, Vanillish has some unique things about it. It does get Ice Shard and Explosion meaning it can put a dent in unsuspecting mons and can also pick off weakened mons. Vanillish also gets support moves like Rain Dance, Mirror Coat, Taunt, and Toxic meaning that you can unsuspectingly bounce back rocks. Overall Vanillish isn't bad nor is it good. It's really meh. It doesn't stand out from any of the other C+ ranks and honestly doesn't stand out much in the C ranks. Loudred has a more usable movepool than Vanillish because Loudred's movepool has plenty of high BP coverage moves.
 
Unfortunately I neglected to save the replay for this, but I just had a battle using a certain Pokémon that really surprised me. I got lucky with one fairly important flinch but this thing is potent.


Grovyle @ Focus Sash
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Leaf Blade
- Drain Punch
- Rock Slide

It's a very simple set, but it actually deals with a surprising amount of MC Pokemon. After Unburden it's faster than the majority of Scarfers, if not all, and at +2 attack it puts massive dents in anything. It's definitely still weak to some stuff of course (it has no answer to Doublade, and priority messes it up, and any fellow sash users ruin its day also), and you do need to find a good way of getting the Unburden boost, but it's very nice indeed.

My opponent in the battle where I swept with this thing lead with Piloswine, used Stealth Rock as I SD'd, and then activated my sash with an Ice Shard as I Drain Punched. I got lucky with flinching their Golbat with Rock Slide (who only survived with 3% anyway), but besides that I easily swept (his team was Piloswine, Golbat, Magmar, Rhydon, Croconaw and Krokorok. Clearly Grovyle isn't gonna win against everything, and I definitely got lucky with that particular battle, but it's pretty strong and I like using it a lot!
 
I love the variety of this meta despite the small amount of mons! I also like how practically them all are usable! Now I said that, I probably volunteered myself to make a E-rank team... ;)
 
It's still in point form, is this intentional?
Yes, quite. It won't be until quite a while down the road (probably until we have a ladder) that analyses are fully written out and formalized.
Threw hit the nail on the head there. It was one of the conditions made with tennisace with getting them up there. Once Middle Cup is official we can go bug C&C and get proper analyses up.
 

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