Middle Cup ORAS

Duly noted Billy, You're on. >:3

Also, when we start analyzing lower ranked teams, they'll be a separate post from me. If there's anything I can do to help with some, just ask (I hope they're getting better)
 
I have been lurking around a bit and I think I can help with my contribution.


Floette @ Leftovers
Ability: Flower Veil
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 30 HP / 0 Atk / 30 Def / 30 SpD / 30 Spe
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast
- Synthesis
- Hidden Power [Ground] or Aromatherapy
Floette has very admirable special bulk and it has access to a reliable recovery move. Once its checks are defeated it can easily set up Calm Minds. HP Ground hits every type that resists fairy, but Aromatherapy can heal Floette from status. Some EVs can be placed in defense, but Floette's defense is so low it probably wouldn't make much of a difference.
 

Cheryl.

Celesteela is Life

I'm nominating Gabite to move up to Low A-Rank. Gabite is a really good Pokemon in Middle Cup, as it has great power in it's amazing offensive typing with good Attack, and a nice speed tier that lets it outspeed some dangerous threats such as Monferno. It's offensive Stealth Rock Life Orb set is really good at wallbreaking and softening up defensive Pokemon, while also setting up Stealth Rock decently upon forced switchins. It's Choice Scarf set is also excellent, as while it faces competiton from Krokorok, who can become a snowball of power after some Moxie boosts, Gabite has more immediate power than Krokorok, and outspeeds some Choice Scarf users that Krokorok can't, such as Monferno and Krokorok itself. Some cool other viable options include a Choice Band set, which has a bit more power over the Life Orb set letting it break through Pokemon such as Marshtomp more easier, especially with room to run Outrage on such a set. A Rocky Helmet set with Endure can also have use as a way to wear down Pokemon like Fletchinder (You outspeed Acrobatic's priority with Endure's priority) and Monferno due to Rocky Helmet and Rough Skin. While Gabite does have some flaws, such as an unfortunate weakness to Ice moves, which are common, and lackluster bulk overall, it still has some really good niches in it's versatility, power, and speed tier, so I believe that Gabite deserves a rise up to Low-A rank.
 
Round 1 Match-Ups have now been posted for the tournament. If you signed up, please complete your matches before the deadline.

I want to bring up a discussion regarding Electabuzz, and specifically whether or not it's a problem in the current metagame. As it stands, it's the fastest unboosted threat by a healthy margin. I've seen many teams that struggle to contain it, simply because there exist no actual counters to Electabuzz. There exists only checks to it, many of whom are either situational or solely rely on coming in to revenge-kill Electabuzz. So I ask you, the playerbase, what are your thoughts on Electabuzz and do you view it to be broken or not? I encourage the use of calculations and replays in your arguments.

PS: Ununhexium, I don't want any gib from you btw.

EDIT: Because the first round of match-ups have been posted, Electabuzz will certainly be legal for the fist round. However, if it is deemed suspect and is banned from Middle Cup, it will not be legal in subsequent rounds.
 
The fact of the matter is that Electabuzz is low risk high reward. When you bring Electabuzz in there is no way you are risking anything. Ground-types don't want to switch into an Ice Punch or HP Grass, Volt Switch makes P2/Doublade more of a liability. Not only that but the aforementioned Ice Punch breaks Roselia and Sliggoo. Because of the slow nature of many middle evolutions the ability to comfortably outpace and 2HKO most of the tier just makes Electabuzz disgusting.
 

Ununhexium

i am groot
is a Contributor Alumnus
Mazz im gonna be serious here

Electabuzz is, in my opinion, horrifically broken. I'm aware it can't run everything at once, but it can pick and choose exactly what "beats" it. I usually run Thunderbolt / Volt Switch / Psychic / HP (Ice / Grass). Clearly the best check appears to be Porygon2, which it is. Thanks to Trace p2 doesn't have to worry about Volt Switch and Thunderbolt and doesn't take much from Psychic and Hidden Power. Well a) having counters doesn't make it not broken and b) when you take a ton from a move like Cross Chop it's not really that great of a check. It's already so fast and so strong that literally the only time I really feel threatened after bringing it in against an offensive team is if the other team has either ANOTHER ELECTABUZZ that can like Speed tie or a Choice Scarf Krokorok. Any other Scarfer can just be Volt Switched out of. Like it's not that physically bulky and takes a good chick from priority and Pursuit but it's really not healthy when you need to run a bunch of semi reliable countermeasures just to not get boned by one Pokemon.
 

Threw

cohiba
Well, regardless, Thunderbolt into Focus Blast (which is the superior coverage option imho) has a chance to KO even defensive P2 after rocks, so it's not as though even the bulkiest specially defensive Pokemon in the metagame is a switch-in. Electabuzz seems scarily similar to Kadabra in that it can pick up a KO every time it comes out because of its power and absurd coverage. There are plenty of Pokemon in plenty of tiers that "2HKO the entire metagame", but the fact that Electabuzz does this while outpacing the entirety of it and having counterplay that is typically rather easy to take advantage of (i.e., Scarf Krokorok - you're obligated to click EQ no matter what) differentiates it from Pokemon like that that are manageable, like Mega Camerupt in RU. It's not even like Frogadier, which is frail enough that a stiff breeze will knock it out; this mon can take a hit from something like LO Frogadier, and strong physical priority won't 2HKO it for the most part.
 
I think the general consensus is that Electabuzz is broken because of 2 main reasons:
1. It outpaces the entire neutral metagame
2. It has the ability to 2hko everything with it's coverage

And as people have pointed out, it is basically Kadabra just not as reliable in terms of being 100% guaranteed no matter what to pick up a KO. I think the more innate problem is with the lack of reliable defensive mons and the oversaturation of offensive ones.
 

Cheryl.

Celesteela is Life
What does whirlipede like to run? Does it run Endeavor or an attacking move?
Whirlipede usually runs a set of Protect, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and Endeavor to get the most hazards out at once while also potentially crippling an opponent by bringing them to low HP. Other Options include Bug STAB over TSpikes, mainly so Gothorita doesn't screw with you if it traps you.
 
Don't run Toxic Spikes, but Pin Missile or Poison Jab. Either works, but once you're faster than your opponent and you bring them to 1HP, pick them off and bring the next threat to 1HP if you're not matched vs a priority user.
 
Round Two of the MC tournament is now live. If you're still participating, please get your matches done before the deadline.

I've also decided that it's time to suspect Electabuzz (officially). Currently, there are four avenues that I'm exploring:
  1. Do nothing. Middle Cup is an offence-first metagame, and banning Electabuzz takes away from that mentality.
  2. Re-test Chansey. Calculations show that the current Electabuzz set struggles mightily versus Chansey. Without Eviolite, it's not exactly an issue. However, Buzz still gets Cross Chop, and what stops Electabuzz running Thunderbolt / Ice Punch / Focus Blast / Cross Chop (the answer is accuracy imo).
  3. Straight-up ban Electabuzz for being ridiculously good and having zero safe (useful) switch-ins.
  4. A combination of 2 and 3, since Middle Cup has a "the next fastest thing is good" issue. This keeps Frogadier in check, and essentially solves the current issue.
I prefer option four, but I want to hear from the public first. Use whatever you like in your arguments - calculations, logs, and page-long essays are welcome. I like having material to read when I'm on break at work. I can't promise that this discussion lasts forever, and I suspect I'll have my mind made up by Wednesday or Thursday. However, I'm still eager to hear your input. There could be some detail I'm overlooking.
 

Threw

cohiba
I'd agree that option 4 is the best course of action right now. The addition of Chansey would do nothing to stem Electabuzz's dominance of the tier, only make it marginally less convenient to use sometimes. DTC's post (forgive me, hyperlinking isn't working for me right now fsr http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/middle-cup-oras.3524287/page-9#post-6743088) thoroughly addresses Chansey as a non-issue, although actually playing with it could be an entirely different story. Regardless, I see no reason at this point not to at least try it out. On the other hand, I truly believe that Frogadier will be the mon to break the current "fastest mon is broken" streak, with or without Chansey, simply because it doesn't hit nearly as hard as Electabuzz and Kadabra. I've never found the thing to be terribly overwhelming (although I might have said the same about Electabuzz before the Kadabra ban, so we'll see).
 
Going to agree with option 4 as well. Simply put the amount of offensive pressure in the meta in theory should stop Chansey from being over centralizing. The only real issue as Threw said above is that we have a trend of seeing speed tiers almost completely determine a Pokémon's viability. And because of this Frogadier could be an issue especially with the very high probability of there being more mixed or physical Frogadier sets. At this point we pretty much have to pick the lesser of two evils.
 

Cheryl.

Celesteela is Life
Agreeing with the others here with Option 4 being the best option for us right now. Electabuzz is a big menace right now, as it outspeeds every unboosted Pokemon in the metagame, and has great power and decent enough coverage to go along with it as well. It can easily chip away at a team with Volt Switch and clean up late-game, and it forces almost every team to have a Choice Scarf user or something super weird like Chople Berry Piloswine to deal with it. While Chansey would help check special Electabuzz sets, Cross Chop mixed sets would easily start to become more popular to lure in and 2HKO Chansey after Stealth Rock, so it would still be a problem. Now, if Electabuzz gets banned, the speed tier would drop, but Frogadier, the second fastest Pokemon after Electabuzz right now, would just emerge as the fastest Pokemon, and while it does have more checks than Electabuzz, it would still be really hard to fight against. Chansey being in the tier not only helps deal with special Frogadier, but it helps against a majority of other special attackers, like Seadra. While Chansey does check almost every special attacker, it does have ways to be gotten around, like being lured with mixed sets like Cross Chop Magmar or Low Kick Frogadier, or just being beaten by the physical attackers of Middle Cup, of which there are many, including powerful Fighting-types like Monferno and Gurdurr. Chansey also has a problem with entry hazards wearing it down each time it comes in, and with the amount of damage it has to sponge, it can get worn down rather easily, even with reliable recovery in Soft-Boiled. So, that is why I think going with Option 4 (Banning Buzzer and unbanning Chansey) is the best way to go, as it helps balance the metagame a bit while also not adding anything too broken to the mix.
 
This tier seems hype, going to learn it and make contributions towards it.

If you see me online, hit me up for a match. My username is usually Miyami, but sometimes it's TSRK.
 
Last edited:

Xayah

KA-KOOO!
is a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
I have just started playing Middle Cup. I am also willing to help writing analyses, as I personally find them very helpful and would love to participate in making this metagame a bit more mainstream.

EDIT: I am not allowed to write analyses on Smogon I don't think, but I can write them and send them to someone else so they can be posted.
 
I wanted to post an opinion on Chansey and what it means. Middle Cup is a metagame that is plagued by offense which makes sense. Of all the good special walls we have they all have at least one of two flaws. They get smashed by Gurdurr or they don't have reliable recovery. Porygon2 has become a staple mon because it can effectively check almost if not all special attackers in the metagame and also carries very good recovery in the form of Recover. However when looking at Chansey what I see is another fat Normal-type that actually gets obliterated by every fighting type in the tier. The niche that Chansey has is being a fat mon that doesn't care about status however compared to Porygon2 it loses a lot more momentum especially because it can't beat ghosts and frankly it's offensive stats are so abysmal that they are virtually unusable. Put Chansey in A-Low, it passes fat 178 HP wishes and it can carry counter + sash/berry to beat fighting mons but at the end of the day it can only check a physical mon once and then it dies to the venge. Anyway I'm just gonna post a set I though up that allows Chansey to effectively check anything that isn't a ghost.

Chansey @ Chople Berry
Ability: Natural Cure
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
- Soft-Boiled
- Seismic Toss
- Thunder Wave
- Counter

This set is effective at luring in common fighting mons and outright destroying them. Chansey eats Gurdurr's Drain Punch and smacks it with Counter. It even eats Dynamic Punch punch from Machoke.

252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Gurdurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chople Berry Chansey: 183-216 (51.2 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Machoke Dynamic Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chople Berry Chansey: 199-234 (55.7 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I'd also like to point out that Chansey can get trapped by 252 HP Gothorita and then can end up losing the game because at max HP Gothorita takes 4 tosses to KO and they can just Calm Mind up and Rest when it gets low. So yeah watch out for those.
 
Try asking someone in the Other Metas room on PS! for a match. You can play Middle Cup using the Ubers format, just with both players agreeing to use the rules outlined in the original post.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 1)

Top