Ladder Mix and Mega

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

Ban imo. It doesn't matter if Stall is kinda lacking. If it's unbreakable, it needs to go.

Defensive Characteristic: A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is able to wall and stall out a significant portion of the metagame.

Even though this isn't OU suspect, I believe the same thing applies to other metagames. Cresselia perfectly fits into this description.

 

[Funbot28]

Ok so I just had a battle, and it was brought to my attention that the stats change when you switch your mon out and back in again.

Here's the replay:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/aqua-mixandmega-1590

His Smeargle had Mega-Ray stats after going for Geomancy

Here are the calcs to prove:
+2 252+ SpA Mega Rayquaza (Normal Type) Boomburst vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Sablenite Cresselia: 255-301 (57.4 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ SpA (Mega Rayquaza) Smeargle Boomburst vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Sablenite Cresselia: 111-132 (25 - 29.7%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO

I think this needs to be fixed asap please :)

As for Cress, that shit needs to go. Way to bulky with skyrocketing defenses and optimal offense support. Imo, there are quite a few other options to stall, and we can't just keep a broken mon to keep a playstyle "viable". It was fun while it lasted, but im supporting a Ban.

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

Ok so I just had a battle, and it was brought to my attention that the stats change when you switch your mon out and back in again.

Here's the replay:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/aqua-mixandmega-1590

His Smeargle had Mega-Ray stats after going for Geomancy

Here are the calcs to prove:
+2 252+ SpA Mega Rayquaza (Normal Type) Boomburst vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Sablenite Cresselia: 255-301 (57.4 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ SpA (Mega Rayquaza) Smeargle Boomburst vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Cresselia: 111-132 (25 - 29.7%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO

I think this needs to be fixed asap please :)

As for Cress, that shit needs to go. Way to bulky with skyrocketing defenses and optimal offense support. Imo, there are quite a few other options to stall, and we can't just keep a broken mon to keep a playstyle "viable". It was fun while it lasted, but im supporting a Ban.

Uh, we've known about this for a while lol, the code has been fixed, it just hasn't been implemented yet (Snaquaza is busy with exams, just like all of us, and he has mod/RO duties in at least 4 rooms on main as well :s). Also, I'm gonna stop arguing about Cress, since I mainly just wanted to see what I could find against a ban (I dislike it when everyone bandwagons against a mon, no matter how borked it is :[ ) and I was on the fence in the first place and I really had to reach for some of that stuff lol. It is overcentralizing, perhaps moreso than is healthy for the metagame, as it is mandatory you have a Moldy stallbreaker or top-notch wallbreaker to defeat it

 

[frogstomperful]

Actually, the best option, and this is banned, fortunately (or unfortunately, depending on how you choose to look at it), is mew w/ khangaskhanite. It is able to 2hko literally anything w/ less than 801 HP, well, and that isn't a ghost type (or, if you're running nightshade, normal type)

That's why I brought up what I did. I know that Parental Bond with this strategy is broken because nothing has 800+ HP. But plenty of mons have more than 400 and so there should be something able to break Scrappy Mew and avoid the 2hko from it.

 

[MaestroDeSWAG]

That's why I brought up what I did. I know that Parental Bond with this strategy is broken because nothing has 800+ HP. But plenty of mons have more than 400 and so there should be something able to break Scrappy Mew and avoid the 2hko from it.

Actually, in order for it to work w/o parental bond, your opponent needs to have up to or less than 200 HP. Since super fang isn't hitting twice, it doesn't do 3/4 of their HP.

 

[frogstomperful]

True enough; I overlooked that detail. Is there anything fully evolved with less than 200 HP at level 100 apart from Shedinja?

 

[Blumenwitz]

True enough; I overlooked that detail. Is there anything fully evolved with less than 200 HP at level 100 apart from Shedinja?

With full HP investment, no. The only two Pokemon (fully evolved or otherwise) that fall short of that number are Shedinja and Diglett.

With no investment whatsoever, the only fully evolved Pokemon that fall short are Shuckle, Dugtrio, Mr. Mime and Luvdisc.

 

[Talpr0ne]

Look, I probably found who's the best abuser of Cameruptite

@

Stats: 100/97/107/158/158/70

EVs: 252 SAtk/252 HP/4 Spe
Modest Nature
-Relic Song
-Psychic
-Focus Blast
-Shadow Ball

This girl easily lives hits such as Pidgeotite Gengar's Sludge Wave or Salamencite Noivern's Boomburst, and retaliates back with Sheer Force moves from 158 Special Attack. The set is very basic, STAB+coverage, all boosted by Sheer Force. Relic Song doesn't turn you into Meloetta-P after Mega Evolution, so it's just for having a Sheer Force boosted Normal STAB, since nothing else could replace it.

 

[MaestroDeSWAG]

Here's something I came up with that, sadly, is illegal for multiple reasons. It would be super cool tho.

74/95/87/175/128/92

Floette-E @ red orb
Ability: Flower Veil
Timid Nature
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 Def
Light of Ruin
Synthesis
Weather Ball
Solarbeam / HP Ground / HP Rock

Fire/fairy is very good coverage, only being resisted by other fire types, water/poison, and rock/poison, as far as I can tell. These are basically all covered by HP ground, however, then your still walled for days by fire/ flying stuff and fire types w/ levitate. Solarbeam is just a powerful coverage option that is threatening to p-kyogre, as it isn't going to want to switch in and end up getting bopped by it after one turn. Synthesis is very good w/ red orb, as it's basically a guaranteed free 75%. Obviously, this hasn't been released, and floette and its evolution are incapable of learning weather ball. But it's kinda fun to theorymon about it, none the less.

Look, I probably found who's the best abuser of Cameruptite

@

Stats: 100/97/107/158/158/70

EVs: 252 SAtk/252 HP/4 Spe
Modest Nature
-Relic Song
-Psychic
-Focus Blast
-Shadow Ball

This girl easily lives hits such as Pidgeotite Gengar's Sludge Wave or Salamencite Noivern's Boomburst, and retaliates back with Sheer Force moves from 158 Special Attack. The set is very basic, STAB+coverage, all boosted by Sheer Force. Relic Song doesn't turn you into Meloetta-P after Mega Evolution, so it's just for having a Sheer Force boosted Normal STAB, since nothing else could replace it.

Yeah, that looks pretty solid- especially because it's most popular set is Pirouette w/ lopunnite, so it could lure out a lot of it's typical checks and counters and absolutely destroy them.

 

[frogstomperful]

I am struggling to think of a decent mega-stone for Shuckle. Stones for attackers are almost worthless on him because he starts with such low base Atk/SpAtk, but he can't use any defensive stone that gives a boost of more than +25 to either defensive side.

Any help for the funny rock-bug / Rare Candy source?

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

I am struggling to think of a decent mega-stone for Shuckle. Stones for attackers are almost worthless on him because he starts with such low base Atk/SpAtk, but he can't use any defensive stone that gives a boost of more than +25 to either defensive side.

Any help for the funny rock-bug / Rare Candy source?

I would personally use Banettite, Gyaradosite, or Ampharosite. Shuckle's main niche is hazards, so either setting up Prankster hazards or guaranteed setting up hazards via using a Mold Breaker stone would be the best choices for Shuckle imho

 

[thdhted]

I would personally use Banettite, Gyaradosite, or Ampharosite. Shuckle's main niche is hazards, so either setting up Prankster hazards or guaranteed setting up hazards via using a Mold Breaker stone would be the best choices for Shuckle imho

Has to be bannetite. It has only base speed and ampharosite drops it by 10. Gyaradosite brings its defenses up by 30, breaking the 255 limit by 5 points

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

Has to be bannetite. It has only base speed and ampharosite drops it by 10. Gyaradosite brings its defenses up by 30, breaking the 255 limit by 5 points

Ah, so it's illegal to have more than 255? I didn't know that--I thought that was just the max number any Pokemon had. And you can't go below 0 speed I guess either lmfao

 

[Ghoul King]

Cresselia is now banned. It's obnoxious, can 6-0 even teams that carry checks or counters to it in spite of not having a huge variety of preferred builds, the checks and counters are too niche, and leaving it in the meta will, at best, centralize the meta around carrying it and fighting it. I don't think I need to lay out why that's undesireable. xJownage says it pretty well in the Council conversation:

Cresselia is a mixed bag in standard tiers and many OMs because of its lack of offensive rpesence, leaving it prone to being overwhelmed. The problem in Mix-and-Mega is that its defensive capabilites are bolstered so much that it doesn't need an offensive presence to threaten opponents. These extremely high defenses make it very easy to calm mind on many threats. Its bulk is so massive on both sides that no team without a specialized counter can stand up to it after just ONE calm mind. Beyond this, Sablenite makes it immune to status. Even with Slowbronite or another stone, however, Cresselia still doesn't mind burns; its so bulky that most mons can't even do enough damage to 2hko it with burn damage. Basically, this is all around an overcentralizing threat that is nearly unbeatable even for its checks, reminiscent of Mega Rayquaza.

Tagging Pikachuun to update the code. I'd tag Snaquaza to implement it but I'm pretty sure it'll happen when he gets around to implementing the previously updated code anyway.

Look, I probably found who's the best abuser of Cameruptite

@

Stats: 100/97/107/158/158/70

EVs: 252 SAtk/252 HP/4 Spe
Modest Nature
-Relic Song
-Psychic
-Focus Blast
-Shadow Ball

This girl easily lives hits such as Pidgeotite Gengar's Sludge Wave or Salamencite Noivern's Boomburst, and retaliates back with Sheer Force moves from 158 Special Attack. The set is very basic, STAB+coverage, all boosted by Sheer Force. Relic Song doesn't turn you into Meloetta-P after Mega Evolution, so it's just for having a Sheer Force boosted Normal STAB, since nothing else could replace it.

You have no idea how glad I am to see a reason to run Relic Song that isn't "I want Pirouette". In any meta. Ever.

Ah, so it's illegal to have more than 255? I didn't know that--I thought that was just the max number any Pokemon had. And you can't go below 0 speed I guess either lmfao

As it says in the OP, over 255 as well as 0 or less in a stat is unacceptable and bars the Pokemon from the Mega Stone or Orb.

 

[Pikachuun]

Tagging Pikachuun to update the code. I'd tag Snaquaza to implement it but I'm pretty sure it'll happen when he gets around to implementing the previously updated code anyway.

Done. Also I finally implemented overflow regulation. Regirock and Steelix are banned from using Slowbronite even though you already probably knew that, and Avalugg just BARELY is allowed the stone [If it had 2 more defense it'd be banned from using it].

Here's the full list of Shuckle compatible stones for those who want it [both of the orbs are compatible]:

Hide

Absolite, Aerodactylite, Alakazite, Altarianite, Banettite, Blastoisinite, Diancite, Gardevoirite, Gengarite, Glalitite, Latiosite, Lopunnite, Lucarionite, Manectite, Metagrossite, Mewtwonite X offensive shuckle new meta, Pidgeotite, Pinsirite, Sceptilite, and Swampertite

 

[OM]

Cresselia. I don't Believe the suspect is over, but don't ban the pokemon entirely, Ban it using the Sablenite, which is literally the only reason people want to ban it. Salbenite gives it insane defenses and a great Stall Ability in Magic bounce, meaning no toxic stall. meanwhile, Giving it an Audinite gies it the psychic/fairy typing AND a horribad ability in healer. Which means Toxic Stall FTW! and Taunt/encore combo reks it ^_^

However, If Audinite is deemed too much also, Ban the damn thing.

 

[xJownage]

Ban it using the Sablenite, which is literally the only reason people want to ban it.

-.-

The ban has been confirmed already, my council reasoning:

Cresselia is a mixed bag in standard tiers and many OMs because of its lack of offensive rpesence, leaving it prone to being overwhelmed. The problem in Mix-and-Mega is that its defensive capabilites are bolstered so much that it doesn't need an offensive presence to threaten opponents. These extremely high defenses make it very easy to calm mind on many threats. Its bulk is so massive on both sides that no team without a specialized counter can stand up to it after just ONE calm mind. Beyond this, Sablenite makes it immune to status. Even with Slowbronite or another stone, however, Cresselia still doesn't mind burns; its so bulky that most mons can't even do enough damage to 2hko it with burn damage. Basically, this is all around an overcentralizing threat that is nearly unbeatable even for its checks, reminiscent of Mega Rayquaza.

 

[tegrof19]

Is it banned in general, or can it just not hold stones like the other ubers?

 

[Imperator Romanum]

I'm a little confused, can we use multiple mega stones on the same team?

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

I'm a little confused, can we use multiple mega stones on the same team?

Yes, you can use a Mega Stone or Orb on every Pokemon. You can only use one of each type of Stone however (basically item clause but only for the stones/orbs) and all can Mega evolve in the same game

 

[MaestroDeSWAG]

Is it banned in general, or can it just not hold stones like the other ubers?

Baned in general. While it would have, admittedly, perhaps been more logical to ban it from using a mega stone, but ghoul king thought it was a little late in the discussion to change the method of killing this monster, and it was just simpler that way. And frankly, I don't think cresselia would be relevant w/o a mega stone.

Cresselia. I don't Believe the suspect is over, but don't ban the pokemon entirely, Ban it using the Sablenite, which is literally the only reason people want to ban it. Salbenite gives it insane defenses and a great Stall Ability in Magic bounce, meaning no toxic stall. meanwhile, Giving it an Audinite gies it the psychic/fairy typing AND a horribad ability in healer. Which means Toxic Stall FTW! and Taunt/encore combo reks it ^_^

However, If Audinite is deemed too much also, Ban the damn thing.

While some things would be less borked, obviously, but there's plenty of other things that are still super ridiculous. To just ban it w/ sablenite then have to ban it w/ other stuff anyways would be counterintuitive and not time-efficient. This is just the easiest way to handle it.

 

[gunnervi]

I am struggling to think of a decent mega-stone for Shuckle. Stones for attackers are almost worthless on him because he starts with such low base Atk/SpAtk, but he can't use any defensive stone that gives a boost of more than +25 to either defensive side.

Any help for the funny rock-bug / Rare Candy source?

Lopunnite Shuckle seems like it could be a pretty powerful Power Trick user. Still better in trick room, though, and it's Gyro Ball takes a hit.

 

[MaestroDeSWAG]

Lopunnite Shuckle seems like it could be a pretty powerful Power Trick user. Still better in trick room, though, and it's Gyro Ball takes a hit.

But... That doesn't increase attack... At least, not after power trick... I mean, I guess if your saying it makes it less frail- but it only has like 15 HP, so 80 def does nothing

 

[gunnervi]

But... That doesn't increase attack... At least, not after power trick... I mean, I guess if your saying it makes it less frail- but it only has like 15 HP, so 80 def does nothing

Fully invested Shuckle has 244 HP (for comparison, uninvested Charizard has 297 HP). While by no means spectacular, its enough to take advantage of the better defenses while Power Tricked, and it means it doesn't require a prior power split (or a partner) to be viable.

I mean, this thing certainly won't be A rank, but it's not that bad.

 

[Talpr0ne]

Cresselia should really not be banned in general if Black Kyurem, Slaking and Regigigas are just disallowed from the use of Mega Stones.