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Ladder Mix and Mega
- Thread starter Imperator Romanum
- Start date
Oh god, I just had a terrible idea. Hide your children.
Xerneas+ Alterianite Kyurem.
Xerneas @ Leftovers
Ability: Fairy Aura
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Dazzling Gleam
- Heal Pulse
- Protect
- Aromatherapy/Thunder Wave/Coverage move of choice
Xern has some nice doubles oriented moves to make it a good support 'mon. Or you can forgo this and go for GeoXern, which is pretty effective as well.
+
Kyurem @ Altarianite
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Earth Power
- Protect
- Dragon Pulse/Roost
Powerful and bulky.
Mix in the occasional Protect in between Hyper Voices/Dazzling Gleams and you have a NASTY offensive nightmare
Xerneas+ Alterianite Kyurem.
Xerneas @ Leftovers
Ability: Fairy Aura
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Dazzling Gleam
- Heal Pulse
- Protect
- Aromatherapy/Thunder Wave/Coverage move of choice
Xern has some nice doubles oriented moves to make it a good support 'mon. Or you can forgo this and go for GeoXern, which is pretty effective as well.
+
Kyurem @ Altarianite
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Earth Power
- Protect
- Dragon Pulse/Roost
Powerful and bulky.
Mix in the occasional Protect in between Hyper Voices/Dazzling Gleams and you have a NASTY offensive nightmare
B-but steel/flying types
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Good point, but Xern does get Thunderbolt......
*shivers*
Welp, back from a huuuuge haitus (school was hectic in the beginning). Seems like Mix and Mega got a whole lot more interesting. Seems nice to return to something awesome. *is currently planning teams for MnM Doubles*.
This sounds really interesting. Fake out users can gain scrappy fake outs via lopunnite, follow me users can have an instant increase in bulk via Sablenite, Audinite, etc. Weather teams should be very interesting with red orb and blue orb. I could even see Bannetite being good as Prankster is even better in doubles. Have to give it a go sometime.
For doubles at least, we may want to consider a couple of unbans, or at least suspect tests for some of our previously banned stuff, which isn't as broken in dubs.
In other news for Dubs for this meta, Stall may actually be a viable thing here, with several stones giving increased bulk, compounded by certain 'mons excellent doubles/support movepools you could potentially do some Stall/Balance stuff.
For example:
Clefable @ Aggronite
Ability: Filter
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Heal Pulse
- Helping Hand/Protect
- Follow Me
- Dazzling Gleam
A solid supporter.
Blissey (F) @ Slowbronite
Ability: Shell Armor
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
- Helping Hand
- Hyper Voice
- Protect
- Flamethrower
Another solid wall
Mew @ Banettite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Fake Out
- Helping Hand
- Rock Slide
- Will-O-Wisp
Annoying as crap and has a bunch of other options to use. Honestly Mew is even MORE unpredictable here.
In other news for Dubs for this meta, Stall may actually be a viable thing here, with several stones giving increased bulk, compounded by certain 'mons excellent doubles/support movepools you could potentially do some Stall/Balance stuff.
For example:
Clefable @ Aggronite
Ability: Filter
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Heal Pulse
- Helping Hand/Protect
- Follow Me
- Dazzling Gleam
A solid supporter.
Blissey (F) @ Slowbronite
Ability: Shell Armor
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
- Helping Hand
- Hyper Voice
- Protect
- Flamethrower
Another solid wall
Mew @ Banettite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Fake Out
- Helping Hand
- Rock Slide
- Will-O-Wisp
Annoying as crap and has a bunch of other options to use. Honestly Mew is even MORE unpredictable here.
Just Realized that the mix and mega thread has finally been revived ;o
I'd forgotten about Tyranitarite, which yeah is worth noting since literally anything can act as a setter for your abusers, which can be virtually anything with Ground, Rock, or Steel moves. (Though ideally Physically inclined to best take advantage of the stat distribution of Steelixite and Garchompite) Combine with something fast for good effect. You could have Archeops/Aerodactyl with Tyranitarite alongside an Earthquaker for a good effect, for instance. Red Orb and Blue Orb are probably still going to be popular enough to present a problem though.
Red Orb and Blue Orb are also interesting for the ability to cover up allied weaknesses. You could have Ferrothorn running a Mega Stone alongside a Blue Orb user, instead of running Ferrothorn as a Blue Orb user itself, for example.
Espeon hits just as hard as Kyurem and is noticeably faster, which is particularly significant given that Altarianite provides no Speed. You could, of course, provide Tailwind support to make up for the lack, but then the whole thing requires noticeably more setup to get going. Of course, Kyurem is considerably bulkier, but Doubles is offensively slanted in the first place so Kyurem might not survive for long regardless. Dragon Pulse also seems iffy to even slash in, since the only thing it adds at all is, like, being neutral against Fire/Flying and Poison/Flying. I'd rather run Icy Wind (Speed control) or Ancient Power. (Severe damage against Charizard et al)
Been meaning to ask Snaquaza what he set the bans for in it anyway. Doubles has a lot fewer things banned than Singles, and what's considered OU or below is different. Being able to put a Mega Stone on Deoxys-Attack is interesting.
For reference, Doubles unbans, compared to Singles...
Aegislash
Blaziken
Darkrai
Deoxys
Deoxys-A
Deoxys-D
Deoxys-S
Genesect
Greninja
Shaymin-S
Gengarite
Kangaskhanite
Lucarionite
Mawilite
... yes, Darkrai with Mega Stones. (Though Dark Void is banned in Doubles, so no, no Pidgeotite Dark Void for you) And Aegislash. And Deoxys. Genesect! What would be a good Mega Stone for Genesect, aside from the obvious Blue Orb so it has no weaknesses?
I'm guessing MnM Doubles code is still referencing Singles for this purpose though? (ie not letting you give Darkrai a Mega Stone, because it's Ubers in Singles) Snaquaza, how is the MnM Doubles code currently set up, anyway?
It's normal Mix and Mega applied to doubles. No changes.
I think Lucarionite, Aerodactylite, Metagrossite would all benefit a shift gear set. Diancite would make gene a very capable mixed attacker. Pidgeotite could be interesting considering gene's cool special move pool.
Personally I would say retest most of our bans, EXCEPT Cresselia. If anything, it's more broken here, now that it can use its support movepool to help sweepers, and can even handle keeping a Trick room team going by itself, especially if a teammate provides Sun for Moonlight.
Not too sure about Darkrai or Genesect, but I'm willing to give them a shot.(Darkrai is not too terribly frail and genesect has its really stupid movepool alongside excellent typing and powerful event moves) Genesect could run a strong physical Cameruptite set with Shift Gear, Iron Head, Blaze Kick, and a coverage move of choice for some real nastiness, it gets some nice bulk(+30) and enough offensive boosts to make good use of cameruptite's sheer force. Its speed drop isn't as much of a problem, as at +2 speed, not much can outrun it, and what does, it can take a hit from. With something keeping it healthy/providing a distraction with follow me/rage powder, it can take down a lot of stuff.
Darkrai can still sleep stuff with Pidgeotenite, as it DOES get Hypnosis, which could be pretty deadly with base 200 sp. atk. The Speed boost is only a plus, and as long as no suprise sablenite happens, it can pick threats to sleep, then have a partner remove it.
Not too sure about Darkrai or Genesect, but I'm willing to give them a shot.(Darkrai is not too terribly frail and genesect has its really stupid movepool alongside excellent typing and powerful event moves) Genesect could run a strong physical Cameruptite set with Shift Gear, Iron Head, Blaze Kick, and a coverage move of choice for some real nastiness, it gets some nice bulk(+30) and enough offensive boosts to make good use of cameruptite's sheer force. Its speed drop isn't as much of a problem, as at +2 speed, not much can outrun it, and what does, it can take a hit from. With something keeping it healthy/providing a distraction with follow me/rage powder, it can take down a lot of stuff.
Darkrai can still sleep stuff with Pidgeotenite, as it DOES get Hypnosis, which could be pretty deadly with base 200 sp. atk. The Speed boost is only a plus, and as long as no suprise sablenite happens, it can pick threats to sleep, then have a partner remove it.
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At last, Audinite's ability becomes useful! I can't see the other abilities making much of a difference in Doubles though, although as you can have separate users and setters it does get slightly easier to abuse weather, you can have Levitators to avoid your Earthquakes, and you can get very gimmicky by giving Sceptilite to a Pokémon that wants the Dragon typing while pairing it with something weak to Electric.
>everyone forgets about ate on genesect
lmao
Just cuz this is a doubles environment doesn't make ESpeed much less viable. It can still pick off faster targets, particularly with Glalitite for birdspam (such as the Aerodactyl/Archeops mentioned by Ghoul King, as I'm sure they will be popular), as well as tanky mons like Garchomp, as well as Zygarde (not as tanky, but would probs run -atespeed too, and Genesect resists 2 -ates). Admittedly, Quick Guard/Protect being everywhere is a pain in the ass, but it should still be decent at picking off faster offensive threats, especially when combined with users of Taunt/Follow Me.
lmao
Just cuz this is a doubles environment doesn't make ESpeed much less viable. It can still pick off faster targets, particularly with Glalitite for birdspam (such as the Aerodactyl/Archeops mentioned by Ghoul King, as I'm sure they will be popular), as well as tanky mons like Garchomp, as well as Zygarde (not as tanky, but would probs run -atespeed too, and Genesect resists 2 -ates). Admittedly, Quick Guard/Protect being everywhere is a pain in the ass, but it should still be decent at picking off faster offensive threats, especially when combined with users of Taunt/Follow Me.
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+6 Diancite Terrakion just got a little bit more feasible. get the boost from beat up on turn 1, then mega on the next turn and kill everything with rock slide. Also, you might be able to rage powder later with Amoonguss, who will probably me more mix&mega friendly in doubles.
Healer on everything (1 thing) baby, status is dead!
Healer on everything (1 thing) baby, status is dead!
I feel that Gastro Acid should be fairly more common here than in regular Doubles. Get rid of them -ates among other abilities.
Bannetite Follow Me Pachirisu yy?
Togekiss is by far the most popular Follow Me abuser in Doubles, though Clefable works too and I could see Blastoise putting in work with the right partners.
Banettite Follow Me's only advantage is that it lets you reliably Follow Me Extreme Speed, instead of demanding you actually outspeed the thing you want to redirect. Well, that and you can potentially Follow Me Fake Out if you happen to be faster than the Faker Outer, but Fake Out is most common in the very first turn in Doubles, less so later in a match, and you won't be able to use Follow Me to redirect them first turn.
Lucarionite is better unless you have specific Speed tiers in mind that Diancite beats but not Lucarionite. The durability loss is huge, the firepower advantage actually goes to Lucarionite thanks to Adaptability -Beat Up Terrakion should pretty much always be using Rock Slide rather than coverage- and since Terrakion isn't going to have a Focus Sash or anything to ensure its survival and is going to be delaying its Mega Evolution by a turn, Diancite's downsides are particularly painful to it.
Gastro Acid is more of a stall thing than anything else, and while stall is doable in Doubles, it's overall slanted more toward Singles. Even then, it doesn't tend to be worth the moveslot et al, especially since one of the main Abilities stall hates is Magic Bounce and it's immune to Gastro Acid if it's not backed by Mold Breaker.
Skill Swap tends to be more useful to stall, as a result.
Plus Gastro Acid just has problematic distribution.
Actually, Quick Guard isn't that common in Doubles. It's everywhere in Triples, but Snaquaza hasn't implemented MnM Triples.
Quick Guard might be everywhere in MnM Doubles because of -atespeed being good, but in regular Doubles it's actually fairly uncommon. Among other points, its Priority is too low to reliably beat Fake Out, which is by far the most important form of priority in Doubles.
Weirdly enough, Trick Room teams may well suffer relative to regular Doubles, due to -ated Fake Out providing an extremely reliable means of stopping Trick Room. In Standard Doubles, Aromatisse plus a Ghost capable of setting Trick Room demands prediction, Fake Out, and overwhelming anti-Ghost firepower to be able to block them setting Trick Room. Here you can -ateout them. On the other hand, several Mega Stones go really well into Trick Room, such as Cameruptite, so new Trick Room choices might pop up.
Stall isn't so hot in Doubles, and the ability to stack fire against Cresselia limits its ability to abuse Sablenite to maximum effect.
+6 252 Atk Adaptability (Lucarionite) Terrakion Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (Sablenite) Cresselia: 286-338 (64.4 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Doubles calc)
I mean, look at the impact of a Doubles staple against it! Keeping in mind it would murder Cresselia's partner at the same time.
Plus now you can smack it with Fake Out while a buddy beats it up, you can toss out overwhelming firepower incidentally pressuring it while killing its buddies, etc. Furthermore, if the code's bans are Doubles-based/brought in line with Doubles (the team validator is crashing right now, so I can't test) then that's a lot of really strong offensive threats that are barred from Mega Stones in Singles suddenly usable with Mega Stones in MnM Doubles. Admittedly, Greninja doesn't really want a Mega Stone, but most of the offensive threats that would gain access can put the access to good use.
MnM Singles bans that could be removed from MnM Doubles, maybe.
-Shadow Tag. Shadow Tag is useful, but not fundamentally broken in Doubles. It's too easy to gang up on the Shadow Tagger, or ignore them and focus on real threats, or whatever, even if you lack tools to escape the trapping per se. Perish Trap is relatively reliable, mind, but then we're getting into possibilities like -ated Feint pushing past Protect.
-Electrify. It only targets a single adjacent Pokemon, making it less of an all-or-nothing 50/50 I win thing.
-Cresselia, Dragonite, Lucario, and Smeargle might be unban-worthy. I'm honestly skeptical of Dragonite being unbanworthy, but Smeargle is liable to be something of a joke.
-Dynamic Punch is still uncompetitive shit with Pidgeotite, even if its influence is easier to manage in Doubles. Zap Cannon might be unbannable.
I guess we could also discuss the possibility of opening Slaking, Kyurem-Black, and/or Regigigas to Mega Stones in MnM Doubles, though that's probably just asking for trouble.
Banettite Follow Me's only advantage is that it lets you reliably Follow Me Extreme Speed, instead of demanding you actually outspeed the thing you want to redirect. Well, that and you can potentially Follow Me Fake Out if you happen to be faster than the Faker Outer, but Fake Out is most common in the very first turn in Doubles, less so later in a match, and you won't be able to use Follow Me to redirect them first turn.
Lucarionite is better unless you have specific Speed tiers in mind that Diancite beats but not Lucarionite. The durability loss is huge, the firepower advantage actually goes to Lucarionite thanks to Adaptability -Beat Up Terrakion should pretty much always be using Rock Slide rather than coverage- and since Terrakion isn't going to have a Focus Sash or anything to ensure its survival and is going to be delaying its Mega Evolution by a turn, Diancite's downsides are particularly painful to it.
Gastro Acid is more of a stall thing than anything else, and while stall is doable in Doubles, it's overall slanted more toward Singles. Even then, it doesn't tend to be worth the moveslot et al, especially since one of the main Abilities stall hates is Magic Bounce and it's immune to Gastro Acid if it's not backed by Mold Breaker.
Skill Swap tends to be more useful to stall, as a result.
Plus Gastro Acid just has problematic distribution.
Actually, Quick Guard isn't that common in Doubles. It's everywhere in Triples, but Snaquaza hasn't implemented MnM Triples.
Quick Guard might be everywhere in MnM Doubles because of -atespeed being good, but in regular Doubles it's actually fairly uncommon. Among other points, its Priority is too low to reliably beat Fake Out, which is by far the most important form of priority in Doubles.
Weirdly enough, Trick Room teams may well suffer relative to regular Doubles, due to -ated Fake Out providing an extremely reliable means of stopping Trick Room. In Standard Doubles, Aromatisse plus a Ghost capable of setting Trick Room demands prediction, Fake Out, and overwhelming anti-Ghost firepower to be able to block them setting Trick Room. Here you can -ateout them. On the other hand, several Mega Stones go really well into Trick Room, such as Cameruptite, so new Trick Room choices might pop up.
Stall isn't so hot in Doubles, and the ability to stack fire against Cresselia limits its ability to abuse Sablenite to maximum effect.
+6 252 Atk Adaptability (Lucarionite) Terrakion Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (Sablenite) Cresselia: 286-338 (64.4 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Doubles calc)
I mean, look at the impact of a Doubles staple against it! Keeping in mind it would murder Cresselia's partner at the same time.
Plus now you can smack it with Fake Out while a buddy beats it up, you can toss out overwhelming firepower incidentally pressuring it while killing its buddies, etc. Furthermore, if the code's bans are Doubles-based/brought in line with Doubles (the team validator is crashing right now, so I can't test) then that's a lot of really strong offensive threats that are barred from Mega Stones in Singles suddenly usable with Mega Stones in MnM Doubles. Admittedly, Greninja doesn't really want a Mega Stone, but most of the offensive threats that would gain access can put the access to good use.
MnM Singles bans that could be removed from MnM Doubles, maybe.
-Shadow Tag. Shadow Tag is useful, but not fundamentally broken in Doubles. It's too easy to gang up on the Shadow Tagger, or ignore them and focus on real threats, or whatever, even if you lack tools to escape the trapping per se. Perish Trap is relatively reliable, mind, but then we're getting into possibilities like -ated Feint pushing past Protect.
-Electrify. It only targets a single adjacent Pokemon, making it less of an all-or-nothing 50/50 I win thing.
-Cresselia, Dragonite, Lucario, and Smeargle might be unban-worthy. I'm honestly skeptical of Dragonite being unbanworthy, but Smeargle is liable to be something of a joke.
-Dynamic Punch is still uncompetitive shit with Pidgeotite, even if its influence is easier to manage in Doubles. Zap Cannon might be unbannable.
I guess we could also discuss the possibility of opening Slaking, Kyurem-Black, and/or Regigigas to Mega Stones in MnM Doubles, though that's probably just asking for trouble.
Well, I don't know about MnM Doubles but I know Dragonite is actually laughable in regular Doubles so that might be worthy of a check. Cresselia I would honestly give it a hard no to unban. It's one of the better Pokemon in regular Doubles and I can see it being downright terrifying in MnM Doubles. Lucario might be worth a check because it's all around frail.
Regigigas might be worth a test. It doesn't get protect, and I'm not sure how slow start works with mega-evolving.
Cresselia is just nightmarish either way. The fact that it DOES take a +6 rock slide is pretty troubling, meaning you have to attack it with both 'mons.
Also, Cress isn't necessarily going to take the +6 hit in the first place. Many Cress run Trick Room, and with Sablenite/Audinite Cresselia's bulk, it can easily run, and support, a trick room team.
Cresselia (F) @ Sablenite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Helping Hand
- Thunder Wave/Protect
- Psychic
Cresselia is just nightmarish either way. The fact that it DOES take a +6 rock slide is pretty troubling, meaning you have to attack it with both 'mons.
Also, Cress isn't necessarily going to take the +6 hit in the first place. Many Cress run Trick Room, and with Sablenite/Audinite Cresselia's bulk, it can easily run, and support, a trick room team.
Cresselia (F) @ Sablenite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Helping Hand
- Thunder Wave/Protect
- Psychic
Dragonite is almost laughable in OU, it wont mean it isn't broken in doubles
I don't think it's THAT laughable in regular OU. It might not be the best but you can't actually make it work.
Besides, Extreme Speed isn't really as useful in Doubles as it is in Singles. In terms of -ate spam, I'm more concerned with/interested in -ate Hyper Voice from all the ridiculous special attackers now. Hyper Voice hits both opponents so you just put on a good stone on a Pokemon with a high special attack and be done with it. Something like Altarianite Hydreigon might prove interesting just to try out. It'll make yourself a nice Dark/Fairy type and give you a pretty good 165 base special attack. No speed increase but it won't need too much really.
In terms of being a supporter, aside from Taunt shenanigans, I believe Cresselia might actually prefer Audinite. It gives it a decent supporting ability and great secondary typing. All you do is take your set, switch out the stones and replace Psychic with Moonblast.
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Regigigas would be insane with a lopunnite: base 220 attack and 130 speed combined with 110/120/110 defenses, scrappy Stab Return/Frustration+Drain Punch. If megaevolution negates slow start then it is even more stupid. I mean, I don't want to give you the wrong impression. I think it would be really cool to use but at the same time it would be toxic for the meta. The same could also be said about Slaking and for this purpose I am going to assume that mega evolution does negate the base form's ability.
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