Ladder Mix and Mega

[Quantum Tesseract]

While it is an excellent wallbreaker and or revengekiller, a -ate weakness and generally piss typing if it wants to get STAB -ate holds it back.

What I believe are its best options are

Mixed Glalicite
Shift Gear Salamencite
RP Pidgeotite
Mixed Altarianite

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rom-mixandmegasuspecttest-21781

And here is a replay showing the great wallbreaking power of Absolite Manaphy, smashing apart holes in teams for Zygarde to sweep (if I remembered Espeed)

Why the heck would you use any of those stones? The better ones, from my experience, are the stab ones- the extra power is insane.

yeah, id like a genesect test. where we unban it for a few days, to see how it fares in the metagame i forgot about technoblast tbch but bug/fairy and bug flying might be bad enough typings to mitigate its amazingness power

Why Gensect is Broken:
Here's what are probably the two standard sets:
Genesect @ Altarianite/Pinsirite
Ability: Download
EVs: 72 Atk / 252 SpA / 184 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Techno Blast
- Extreme Speed
- Thunderbolt
- Flamethrower

Genesect @ Pinsirite/Altarianite
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 Atk / 72 SpA / 184 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Techno Blast
- Extreme Speed
- Shift Gear
- Blaze Kick/Thunderbolt

What switches into set 1 (only things that are ranked alrady)
Heatran (needs spd to be reliable against pinsirite) +1 252 SpA Aerilate (Pinsirite) Genesect Techno Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD (cameruptite) Heatran: 146-172 (37.8 - 44.5%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Blissey (Sablenite only, as +1 252 SpA Pixelate (Altarianite) Genesect Techno Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD (slowbronite) Blissey: 286-337 (43.8 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Victini (Altarianite only)


What switches into set 2
Heatran
Skarmory (unless thunderbolt)
Hippowdon
Primal groudon
Slowbronite Blissey

Do you see the similarities? thats an overlap of one, so if you want to wall genesect you need to run heatran. However, heatran has no recovery, so if it gets worn down its GG unless you have offensive pressure. Offensive pressure isn't enough, though: Genesect is fast, can get faster, and has extreme speed.

TL;DR: Beating Genesect requires constant and major offensive pressure or heatran, and even then its still a great revenger. Genesect is everything Dragonite wishes it was.

OK VR Update

Manaphy: gone

Klinklang: Up to B- (Solid sweeper, but usually Cobalion's better as that can hit Steel types)

Let's discuss where the new drops might go, if they indeed stay. I'll add them in once the meta gets going again when it (likely) wins OMotM

Let's see: get cresselia, dragonite, and cubethe heck out of the viability rankings, as they are worse thasn in standard. Similarly, unrank kyogre, Palkia, and
Deoxys-n: we aren't ubers, we don't need them on the list. Unrank meganium- no one uses it.

Move down Shaymin-S and both giratina.

Rank Hoopa-C: i explained why here

I missed this, and I apologize for that, but I really don't think this set is any good, much less s rank, for a couple of reasons.
First off, it takes your Pinsirite, a very valuable stone beloved by common mons such as Arcanine, Entei, and Zygarde.
Secondly, Bannete is still weak- while its flying attacks will do decent damage, all of its other moves will barely do anything.
Thirdly, it's slow- while priority does help mitigate this somewhat, it still is easily revenge killed and has no means to pressure switches. It has no setup, after all.
Fourth of all, it has common weaknesses to mons like Pidgeotite Gengar and Red Orb Raikou.
Finally, it has little to no defenses.



On a separate note, I'd like to nominate Hoopa-C for C+/B- rank. While it is outclassed by its other counterpart Hoopa-U for type changing stones, and the two cannot be run together, it has a nice niche. First off, it sports a neutrality to pixilate, which while not game breaking means that stones like Cameruptite can let it live an espeed. Secondly, it has perfect 120 bp coverage in Focus Blast and Shadow Ball, and while its slower then Gengar it hits quite a bit harder. It also has a nice, if niche immunity to Arceus' espeed and Terrakion's/Cobalion's close combats, allowing it to theoretically pivot in, especially on sets like Diancite that can actually speed tie their Lucarionite formes. It still has stab psyshock/psychic to threaten switches as well, while maintaining Hoopa-U's nice movepool that includes gems like nasty plot as well as great coverage. While it does have a 4x weakness to ghost and dark, the latter is fallen out of favor due to the loss of knock off as a threat (leaving only Weavile, Hoopa-U, the occasional Tyranitar, and sucker punch), while the former consists of Gengar and upposing Hoopa-C. It can even function as a better trick room user due to its better matchup vs priority and lower speed stat.

Calcs, for the record, of attacks Hoopa-C can live that Hoopa-U cant:

noivern

252 SpA Pixilate (Altarianite) Noivern Boomburst vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD (regular) Hoopa: 195-229 (64.5 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

assorted enteicalcs

-1 252+ Atk Pixilate (Altarianite) Entei Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def (manectite) Hoopa: 171-202 (56.6 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Pixilate (Altarianite) Entei Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def (cameruptite) Hoopa: 232-274 (76.8 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

AltZygarde

252 Atk (altarianite) Pixilate Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def (cameruptite) Hoopa: 196-232 (64.9 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Pixilate (altarianite) Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def (manectite) Hoopa: 144-171 (47.6 - 56.6%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Pixilate (altarianite) Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def (pidgeotite) Hoopa: 255-301 (84.4 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

keldeo

252 SpA Adaptability Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa: 218-258 (72.1 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
while vs hoopa-u
252 SpA Adaptability Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Hoopa Unbound: 316-374 (104.9 - 124.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Its not a major niche, but its nice, has relatively low cost (it fulfills similar roles since it only has 20 less spa) and is worlds better than everything in the c-ranks (palkia, really?).

tl;dr- Hoopa for C+\B- with Cameruptite, Manectite, and Pidgeotite; possibly Diancite, Absolite,

Move klingklang up, a lot; move Keldeo to A

I never agreed to move it to A, that's too high. The reality is Cobalion and, to a lesser extent, Metagross can both do similar things to Klinklang and unlike Klink they can actually harm Steel types with Close Combat / Earthquake. Cobalion also gets STAB priority in Quick Attack. Shift Gear does give it a solid niche, but it is not A Rank. It's fine in B.

Also, Extreme Speed Genesect has to run Hasty Nature due to being event locked.

Just throwing it out here, but Klingklang is a monster. Unlike Metagross and Cobalion, it has a pure steel starting type, which is nice, and a boosting move, which is incredible. Because of its speed boosting, it can run bulk and attack, so it sets up easily, and after rocks it 2hkos the metagamsetup sweeper and a cleaner. The closest comparable mons are Gyarados and Salamence, but neither of them resist -ate.

 

[Highlord]

Skarmory from A Rank to A+
Reasoning:
-Walls a huge portion of the meta-game including Landorous-T, Zygarde, non-Thunder Ekiller Arceus, non- Thunder Primal Groudon, Heatran, Arcanine, Metagross, Ho-oh and Entei.
-Great Stab in the form of Brave Bird especially with the attack increase from blue orb and most frail mons cannot switch into it.
-Access to hazards, defog, instant recovery, taunt, immune to toxic and gets phasing. (Godsends for a wall)
-It can even run SD to break past magic bounce. (rofl)
-One of the most centralized threats in the meta-game which is why some physical threats are forced to run thunder.

EDIT:
FIRST POST!

 

[Zephyr Dragon Lord]

Blue Orb Skarm is just another road bump for Water sweepers such as Salamancite Gyarados, which I am very fond of.

I'm a bit shaky on the Genesect and Deoxys-S unbans due to Extreme Speed, but everything else seems okay... Blaziken + Speed Boost might lead to it becoming stupid powerful with something like Metagrossite, but we'll need more testing for that. (A complex unban would be just fine, though....)

 

[thesecondbest]

just blanket ban ate speed and free luke and dnite and genesect

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

just blanket ban ate speed and free luke and dnite and genesect

How about you just don't make irrelevant one-line shitposts?

On another note, I'm curious as to what stones you guys think Greninja/Lando-I/Aegislash will run, if they will be used at all. I figure Greninja might have a pretty good Diancite set, utilizing its decent mixed movepool to be a fun revenge killer as it outspeeds the entire meta. Something along the lines of Extrasensory (Keldeo, Terrakion) / Dark Pulse (Gengar, Victini) / Gunk Shot (Xerneas, non-Aggronite Togekiss) / Ice Beam (Thundurus-I, Archeops) seems like a decent set. Aegislash could run a decent Latiasite set, or possibly a special Cameruptite set as both of its STABs are boosted by Sheer Force (you'd have to enter Blade form first though, so only really usable on Trick Room as a glass cannon, and probably done better by other mons anyway. It does get Shadow Sneak off of 170 Attack tho once TR expires). I feel like it's still too slow to utilize Diancite. And honestly, needing to enter Blade form before you mega to have decent stats hurts its offensively inclined sets, while defensive sets are meh bcz it lacks recovery, unfortunately. Landorus-I I don't feel is gonna carve itself much of a niche. There are too many mons with better STABs, better coverage, higher stats, and more speed that would outclass it in anything it wants to do tbh. Honestly I'd prefer to use Nidoking for the extra STAB, better coverage, and Fairy resist, as well as two hazards if you're into offensive hazard setters (as a matter of fact I have used Lucarionite Nidoking as a Red Orb Raikou check and offensive TSpikes setter lol).

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

I'd give Greninja the Absolite personally - it still hits 163 base Speed post mega, and unlike the Diancite it doesn't wreck its already low bulk. I'd go with Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, Grass Knot, Dark Pulse / U-turn / Gunk Shot. Aegislash I wouldn't bother with, Heatran and Magnezone are more reliable Latiasite users and as you said having to go Blade forme sucks as well (besides I'd rather use Kyurem or Volcanion for Cameruptite). Landorus-I would be good with the Pinsirite / Salamencite, it could run a great suicune lead set with SR, Earthquake, Return / Stone Edge and Explosion. Aerilate Explosion coming off 155 Attack is going to be insane. It could also do SD, as unlike Landorus-T it won't need to run Rock Polish.

 

[thesecondbest]

How about you just don't make irrelevant one-line shitposts?

On another note, I'm curious as to what stones you guys think Greninja/Lando-I/Aegislash will run, if they will be used at all. I figure Greninja might have a pretty good Diancite set, utilizing its decent mixed movepool to be a fun revenge killer as it outspeeds the entire meta. Something along the lines of Extrasensory (Keldeo, Terrakion) / Dark Pulse (Gengar, Victini) / Gunk Shot (Xerneas, non-Aggronite Togekiss) / Ice Beam (Thundurus-I, Archeops) seems like a decent set. Aegislash could run a decent Latiasite set, or possibly a special Cameruptite set as both of its STABs are boosted by Sheer Force (you'd have to enter Blade form first though, so only really usable on Trick Room as a glass cannon, and probably done better by other mons anyway. It does get Shadow Sneak off of 170 Attack tho once TR expires). I feel like it's still too slow to utilize Diancite. And honestly, needing to enter Blade form before you mega to have decent stats hurts its offensively inclined sets, while defensive sets are meh bcz it lacks recovery, unfortunately. Landorus-I I don't feel is gonna carve itself much of a niche. There are too many mons with better STABs, better coverage, higher stats, and more speed that would outclass it in anything it wants to do tbh. Honestly I'd prefer to use Nidoking for the extra STAB, better coverage, and Fairy resist, as well as two hazards if you're into offensive hazard setters (as a matter of fact I have used Lucarionite Nidoking as a Red Orb Raikou check and offensive TSpikes setter lol).

Its not a shit post, that's my actual opinion

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Its not a shit post, that's my actual opinion

For a metagame entirely centralised around mega stones I'd be pretty dumb to ban like, four of them. It would harm the metagame more than banning 2-3 pokemon.

 

[OrdA]

just blanket ban ate speed and free luke and dnite and genesect

For a metagame entirely centralised around mega stones I'd be pretty dumb to ban like, four of them.

Sounds like the idea here is to complex ban the combination of these mega stones with Extremespeed. That's unlikely to happen, though.

 

[nv]

Thanks to Grains of Salt I am the head of the Stones VR, and I figured it was high time for an update. I decided to include the stats given by each stone, the potential new typing, the weight gain (or loss in Mega Lopunny's case), as well as subranks for the A and B ranks of the VR.

Mega Stone Viability Rankings

Restricted Stones: These stones are restricted to certain Pokémon.

Beedrillite (+60 Attack, -30 Special Attack, +70 Speed | Adaptability | N/A | +11 kg)

• Essentially allows any physical attacker with a good STAB combination to become an absolute threat that can overpower most checks.

Gengarite (+20 Defense, +40 Special Attack, +20 Special Defense, +20 Speed | Shadow Tag | N/A | N/A)

• Since this is an Ubers based metagame, it makes sense to allow Mega Gengar since they handle it just fine. That being said, It is strictly only on Mega Gengar as allowing any Pokemon the ability to trap potential checks and counters for teammates makes the meta uncompetitive.

Kangaskanite (+30 Attack, +20 Defense, +20 Special Attack, +10 Special Defense, +20 Speed | Parental Bond | N/A | +20 kg)

• Giving any Pokemon a 1.5x boost to their attacks means already powerful Pokemon become even more powerful. Furthermore, Kangaskhan is the only Pokemon that shows it is a "mother" so it wouldn't make sense for any other Pokemon to have a "Parental Bond" right?

Mawilite (+20 Attack, +40 Defense, +40 Special Defense | Huge Power | N/A | +12 kg)

• This allows too many bulkier Pokemon to become even bulkier while also gaining a massive physical offensive presence.

Medichamite (+40 Attack, +10 Defense, +20 Special Attack, +10 Special Defense, +20 Speed | Pure Power | N/A | N/A)

• This is in the same boat as Mawilite in terms of power, but would benefit frailer attackers thanks to its Speed stat boost rather than benefitting bulkier attackers.

S Rank Stones: Reserved for Mega Stones that are excellent in the Mix and Mega metagame. They provide a nearly perfect combination of abilities and stat spreads. There is very little reason not to use these stones.

Altarianite (+40 Attack, +20 Defense, +40 Special Attack | Pixilate | +

| N/A)

Lucarionite (+35 Attack, +18 Defense, +25 Special Attack, +22 Speed | Adaptability | N/A | +3.5 kg)

Sablenite (+10 Attack, +50 Defense, +20 Special Attack, +50 Special Defense, -30 Speed | Magic Bounce | N/A | +150 kg)

A Rank Stones: Reserved for Mega Stones that are good in the Mix and Mega metagame. These stones provide a good combination of abilities and stats. These stones provide benefits that outweigh its flaws, if there are any.

A+

Absolite (+20 Attack, +40 Special Attack, +40 Speed | Magic Bounce | N/A | +2 kg)

Aggronite (+30 Attack, +50 Defense, +20 Special Defense | Filter | +

| +35 kg)

Blue Orb (+50 Attack, +30 Special Attack, +20 Special Defense | Primordial Sea | N/A | +78 kg)

Diancite (+60 Attack, -40 Defense, +60 Special Attack, -40 Defense, +60 Speed | Magic Bounce | N/A | +19 kg)

Lopunnite (+60 Attack, +10 Defense, +30 Speed | Scrappy | +

| -5 kg)

Pidgeotite (+5 Defense, +65 Special Attack, +10 Special Defense, +20 Speed | No Guard | N/A | +11 kg)

Pinsirite (+30 Attack, +20 Defense, +10 Special Attack, +20 Special Defense, +20 Speed | Aerilate | +

| +4 kg)

Red Orb (+30 Attack, +20 Defense, +50 Special Attack | Desolate Land | +

| +49.7 kg)

A

Ampharosite (+20 Attack, +20 Defense, +50 Special Attack, +20 Special Defense, -10 Speed | Mold Breaker | +

| N/A)

Blazikenite (+40 Attack, +10 Defense, +20 Special Attack, +10 Special Defense, +20 Speed | Speed Boost | N/A | N/A)

Manectite (+20 Defense, +30 Special Attack, +20 Special Defense, +30 Speed | Intimidate | N/A | +3.8 kg)

Metagrossite (+10 Attack, +20 Defense, +10 Special Attack, +20 Special Defense, +40 Speed | Tough Claws | N/A | +392.9 kg)

Mewtwonite X (+80 Attack, +10 Defense, +10 Special Defense | Steadfast | N/A | +5 kg)

Venusaurite (+18 Attack, +40 Defense, +22 Special Attack, +20 Special Defense | Thick Fat | N/A | +55.5 kg)

A-

Aerodactylite (+30 Attack, 20 Defense, +10 Special Attack, +20 Special Defense, +20 Speed | Tough Claws | N/A | +20 kg)

Cameruptite (+20 Attack, +30 Defense, +40 Special Attack, +30 Special Defense, -20 Speed | Sheer Force | N/A | +100.5 kg)

Charizardite X (+46 Attack, +33 Defense, +21 Special Attack | Tough Claws | +

| +20 kg)

Charizardite Y (+20 Attack, +50 Special Attack, +30 Special Defense | Drought | N/A | +10 kg)

Gyaradosite (+30 Attack, +30 Defense, +10 Special Attack, +30 Special Defense | Mold Breaker | +

| +70 kg)

B Rank Stones: Reserved for Mega Stones that may only fit specific Pokémon in order for them to be viable. The benefits of these stones come with some downsides that are not remedied by the benefits alone, but rather by the Pokemon.

B+

Banettite (+50 Attack, +10 Defense, +10 Special Attack, +20 Special Defense, +10 Speed | Prankster | N/A | +.5 kg)

Glalitite (+40 Attack, +40 Special Attack, +20 Speed | Refrigerate | N/A | +93.7 kg)

Latiasite (+20 Attack, +30 Defense, +30 Special Attack, +20 Special Defense | Levitate | N/A | +12 kg)

Salamencite (+10 Attack, +50 Defense, +10 Special Attack, +10 Special Defense, +20 Speed | Aerilate | N/A | +10 kg)

Slowbronite (+70 Defense, +30 Special Attack | Shell Armor | N/A | +31.5 kg)

B

Audinite (+40 Defense, +20 Special Attack, +40 Special Defense | Healer | +

| +1 kg)

Blastoisinite (+20 Attack, +20 Defense, +50 Special Attack, +10 Special Defense | Mega Launcher | N/A | +15.6 kg)

Sceptilite (+25 Attack, +10 Defense, +40 Special Attack, +25 Speed | Lightning Rod | +

| +3 kg)

B-

Gardevoirite (+20 Attack, +40 Special Attack, +20 Special Defense, +20 Speed | Pixilate | N/A | N/A)

Heracronite (+60 Attack, +40 Defense, +10 Special Defense, -10 Speed | Skill Link | N/A | +8.5 kg)

Scizorite (+20 Attack, +40 Defense, +10 Special Attack, +20 Special Defense, +10 Speed | Technician | N/A | +7 kg)

Swampertite (+40 Attack, +20 Defense, +10 Special Attack, +20 Special Defense, +10 Speed | Swift Swim | N/A | +20.1 kg)

Tyranitarite (+40 Attack, +20 Defense, +10 Special Attack, +20 Special Defense, +10 Speed | Sand Stream | N/A | +53 kg)

C Rank Stones: Reserved for Mega Stones that have viable niches in the Mix and Mega metagame. The flaws of these certain stones are only useful on some Pokemon.

Garchompite (+40 Attack, +20 Defense, +40 Special Attack, +10 Special Defense, -10 Speed | Sand Force | N/A | N/A)

Galladite (+40 Attack, +30 Defense, +30 Speed | Inner Focus | N/A | +4.4 kg)

Houndoomite (+40 Defense, +30 Special Attack, +10 Special Defense, +10 Speed | Solar Power | N/A | +14.5 kg)

Mewtwonite Y (+40 Attack, -20 Defense, +40 Special Attack, +30 Special Defense + 10 Speed | Insomnia | N/A | +89 kg)

Sharpedonite (+20 Attack, +30 Defense, +15 Special Attack, +25 Special Defense, +10 Speed | Strong Jaw | N/A | +41.5 kg)

Steelixite (+40 Attack, +30 Defense, +30 Special Defense | Sand Force | N/A | +340 kg)

D Rank Stones: Reserved for Mega Stones that are poor or unviable in the Mix and Mega metagame. Stones in this rank have only specific Pokemon and will fail if used on anything else.

Abomasite (+40 Attack, +30 Defense, +40 Special Attack, +20 Special Defense, -20 Speed | Snow Warning | N/A | +49.5 kg)

Alakazite (+20 Defense,+40 Special Attack, +30 Speed | Trace | N/A | N/A)

Latiosite (+40 Attack, +20 Defense, +30 Special Attack, +10 Special Defense | Levitiate | N/A | +10 kg)

I do plan on posting out some fun sets (that I am pretty sure are somewhere in this thread) later on, but I will save that for another post :)
s/o to InfernapeTropius11 for helping me rank these after I lost the draft I had here...

EDIT: I added blurbs to the "Restricted Stones" that are subject to change.

 

[Heavyweapons Mann]

nv Sablenite is actually -30 Speed and +10 Attack, +20 Special Attack, and +50 to both defenses.

 

[kekleon9999]

Dragonite does more than use a new Fairy Extremespeed. It could also wield a Flying type one.

The Flying ESpeed could get dangerous, as it gives Dnite a better Flying move for perfect coverage (Flying, Fighting, Electric, Ground) with a normally effective count of 172 including every released pokemon. Is it just me, or is Dnite broken?

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

The Flying ESpeed could get dangerous, as it gives Dnite a better Flying move for perfect coverage (Flying, Fighting, Electric, Ground) with a normally effective count of 172 including every released pokemon. Is it just me, or is Dnite broken?

It's not just you, that's the common consensus. Hence, Dragonite has been barred from holding mega stones.

Update from the VR:

Pokémon moved to Unranked: Kyogre (use Primal Kyogre), Meganium (why was this thing ever ranked?), Dragonite (without mega stones there's little reason to use it over Zygarde), Palkia (struggles with Red Orb being so common) and Reshiram (eclipsed by Pidgeotite / Red Orb Victini in most areas).

Bumped up: Deoxys-S to A+ (phenomenal hazard setter with Ampharosite), Greninja to B (great fast attacker with Absolite, can also use Pidgeotite well for a perfectly accurate Hydro Pump and Blizzard), Mew to S (can do a huge variety of things, and does them all well)

Pushed down: Metagross to B+ (good late game sweeper with RP, but faces competition from Klinklang and Cobalion), Xerneas down to B+ (only gets one shot at sweeping, most Red Orb users can stop it easily enough)

Added Pokémon: Hoopa-C to C (Hoopa-U is better in most places, but it can do a OTR set with Cameruptite better as it's slower), Landorus-I to B- (better suicide lead than T due to better Speed) Primal Kyogre to B (very powerful wallbreaker), Smeargle to C (looks amazing on paper, in reality very underwhelming), Volcanion to B- (great wallbreaker with Cameruptite, but slow and weak to all hazards)

If anybody has any suggestions, please let me know.

Personally I think the Pidgeotite should be S Rank, it gives the biggest Special Attack boost of all mega stones as well as a nice +20 Speed. No Guard is a godsend to a lot of Special Attackers, letting them fling around perfectly accurate Thunders, Hurricanes, Blizzards, Focus Blasts, Hydro Pumps, Infernos, Hypnoses (yes that's actually a word) and Grasswhistles.

 

[Beeana]

I haven't played mix and mega in months, is Me First/Parting Shot Pangoro with Bannettite still a thing?

 

[G-Luke]

So is it final then?

My views are:
Keep Deo-S banned.
Suspect Blazikenite and Genesect.
Unban Blaziken, Greninja, Landorus, Smeargle, Deo-D and Aegislash

My reasonings: Deo-S's combination of extremely high speed and masssive coverage allows it to run normally punishing stones that sacrifice speed for power and bulk and take it to full effect. It can also run regular attacking stones and hit unimaginable speed tiers, while barely investing in speed and investing in bulk to survive hits better. A threat like this will centralise Espeed EVEN more.

Blazikenite: Speed Boost can be a very dangerous ability on sonething with the right stat spread, and Blazikenite gives the right stat boost.... it could be slapped on anything with good bulk and bam! Its an offensive beast. It has the potencial to do what Deo-S does, I would prefer to see it in battle.

Genesect: Everyone kinda labourated on why it deserves a SUSPECT (not an unban people) already so im beating a dead bush.

Now, normally no one would need to elaborate on why the things that are being unbanned should be, cuz they just outright suck. But Blaziken is a different matter.

Blaziken should be unbanned cuz, its only ok. It can only get +1 speed boost per match, its very frail, and its weak to the most common means of speed control, -ate speed. Its not broken guys. At all.

Edit: Oh ignore everything I said and place Blaziken, Deo-D and Genesect in their respective rankings aswell.

 

[thdhted]

I haven't played mix and mega in months, is Me First/Parting Shot Pangoro with Bannettite still a thing?

Absolutely still a thing. Taunt's also a pretty solid option if you want to stop setup sweepers in their tracks.

Honestly, I feel like Deo-D should stay banned as well, partially for the same reasons that it was banned from standard play. It's just too good at what it does, and can run surprise sets for its counters, as well as remaining extremely unpredictable in what it does. It has the same threatening movepool as Deo-S(albeit with worse offenses), has a (relatively) fast base 90 speed, and plenty of bulk. Heck, it could viably run an offensive Diancite without feeling like it's lost all of its bulk, a Cresselia-Style CM set with recover, and an extra moveslot for something other than psyshock.
I'd still love to see it suspected just to see whether it's really broken or not though.


EDIT: seeing as how nobody's posted after me, and looking at how we're beating every other meta by at least 30 votes right now, I'd suggest putting your teams together now.

 

[xJownage]

Honestly Greninja is p bad ngl. Its not strong enough to OHKO bulky walls so its really only good against HO, and priority spam generally wrecks its low bulk. If it was a little bit stronger i could consider but it really seems rather underwhelming.

Please suspect Gene and Blazikenite. Speed boost with +40 atk and +20 spa is a lot for common mons that only need speed, and many mons that resist ate just become ridiculous sweepers (shit like mag being a cleaner and physical steel types with SD). Blazikenite is mitigated by atespeed, gene is just...rip balance honestly. Tears through teams without tran or near full health primaldon.

And hi im yet ANOTHER person advocating how good klinklang is. Shit sweeps teams. Stop arguing against half of the top MnM players dude.

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

Klinklang is countered by just about every Electric-type. It's also not that bulky before Mega'ing, and yes it has a lot of resistances, but Fire, Ground and Fighting moves are all common. It also struggles with a lot of S and A Rank Pokémon - Primal Groudon stops it cold, Mew can cripple it with Will-O-Wisp or Hypnosis before it has a chance to set up, Thundurus can take any +1 Attack and OHKO with Thunder and Taunt it to stop it setting up in the first place...

It is still a solid late game sweeper, but it's not quite A Rank. But I'll move it to B+, as on reflection B- is too low.

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

Klinklang is countered by just about every Electric-type. It's also not that bulky before Mega'ing, and yes it has a lot of resistances, but Fire, Ground and Fighting moves are all common. It also struggles with a lot of S and A Rank Pokémon - Primal Groudon stops it cold, Mew can cripple it with Will-O-Wisp or Hypnosis before it has a chance to set up, Thundurus can take any +1 Attack and OHKO with Thunder and Taunt it to stop it setting up in the first place...

It is still a solid late game sweeper, but it's not quite A Rank. But I'll move it to B+, as on reflection B- is too low.

There is literally 1 bulky electric, and Zapdos isn't even common. You can make a case for Heatran, Aggronite Hippo, and Magnezone, but saying anything else counters it is kidding yourself.
-Primal Groudon is a lolno:
252+ Atk Aerilate Klinklang Return vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 159-187 (43.3 - 50.9%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, and its slower.
-Mew needs to be in while it sets up, or else 252+ Atk Aerilate Pinsirite Klinklang Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sablenite Mew: 169-199 (41.8 - 49.2%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
-Thundy also needs to be in, as +1 252+ Atk Aerilate Pinsirite Klinklang Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 238-281 (79.5 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Worst of all, Klingklang only needs wild charge for flying steels (Meta, Klingklang, Skarm, and Cobalion). If you swap it for sub, all of a sudden mew is setup fodder while it tries to wisp you. As far as setting up goes, it can do so freely (Ie set up and then still live an Entei extremespeed) on Zygarde (S), Blissey (A+), Arceus (A), Ferrothorn (A-), Noivern (A-) and Jirachi (A-). It can also set up on (not living an espeed) on Terrakion (A+), Archeops (A), and Tornadus (A).

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Hey guys, I'm glad we discussed this, because I feel like I've gotten a good view into the ban-list. I'm certain on some mons and uncertain on others.
Here are the mons I'm certain on! I'll render my verdict now :)

Landorus-I Unbanned

Reasoning

well Landorus-I is just a faster and weaker Landorus-Therian. Seeing as it loses that lethal Life orb + Sheer force combination its far less threatening.

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 251-296 (73.6 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 238-282 (69.7 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Camerupite)

So it never really reaches the power it wants, and even then it gets significantly slower. Being a mixed attack was the big thing for Landorus-I, in Ubers that just doesn't cut it. Too many counters and far too many checks. C- for now

Aegislash Unbanned

Reasoning

Honestly has so little use in this metagame anyways, way to passive, zero recover and literally only bulk on its side. Jirachi, Skarmory and Ferrothorn are better imo. C- Rank for now!

Greninja Unbanned

Reasoning

Pretty much trash. This does nothing offensively that Keldeo doesn't, the only niche is being the best setter of tspikes + spikes. Should be ranked C in the VRs, stones are Ampharosite, Gyaradosite for now.

Smeargle Unbanned

Reasoning

This thing does nothing. It's not the best hazard setter because Pdon and Deoxys-S both do that better. BP just doesn't work, 99% of teams have either atespeed or magic bounce. Unless you're half asleep while playing against this it will do nothing. D rank for now imo, a few niches but nothing special.

Blazikenite Banned/Awaits suspect

Reasoning

Eh, this thing is nice and all. But in a metagame filled with priority, being speedy might not always be the solutions. Personally I've been struggling to find good uses for this mon. Landorus-Therian was interesting but got into Entei range too fast. I'm going to keep this banned because ya'll seem unsure. It'll wait and probably be suspected along side of Blaziken.

Blaziken Stays banned/Awaits suspect

Reasoning

Holy shit this thing is powerful. At +1 it'll outspeed almost anything after protect, it's good huge versatility in stones. Ranging from Absolite, Aerodactylite, Lucarionite, Diancite ect. I'm going to wait a little bit before suspecting this thing, it's insanely powerful...

252+ Atk Adaptability Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Primal Groudon: 206-244 (50.9 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Adaptability Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 238-282 (74.6 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Adaptability Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ho-Oh: 193-228 (46.5 - 54.9%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Adaptability Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Arceus-Water: 234-276 (52.7 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Adaptability Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Kyogre: 386-456 (100.5 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Adaptability Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 184 HP / 28 Def Xerneas: 332-392 (75.6 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Adaptability Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 202-238 (60.4 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It's not that it isn't frail or anything, it's just insanely powerful and fast after one turn.

+2 252+ Atk Adaptability Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 243-286 (61.6 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Adaptability Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 294-347 (72.7 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

So I'm sure on all of those, I don't really doubt the communities voices and my own opinions.

So I'm going to write outside of hide right now, because this should be the focus. Here's the thing, Deoxys-S and Deoxys-D aren't as reliable as setting rocks. Although they're very good at it, they usually wont set more than one. And largely apart of that is because of Entei. Entei has been a dominating force in MnM for a long ass time now, with 39% usage it's too be prepared for. Simply put, Entei has an 81% chance of OHKOing Deoxys-S in its base form, and since it can't mega you have a very small chance of reliably setting up rocks. Deoxys-D can of course live the hit, it even can after Mega Evolving. It does a maximum of 99.3 versus Ampharosite. So here's the thing, they aren't as good at setting up rocks as previously assumed. They're the best, but very one dimensional, if you understand. Personally I'd prefer Primal Groudon because it can beat most Magic bouncers 1v1 and still provide an offensive/defensive backbone. So yeah. By leading with your -ate you'll be in a good position. Plus they can both be taunted or put to sleep (gengar, mew ect). Offensive sets and defensive sets are a joke for both of them, psychic typing is the worst. (I wish they were ghost or dark!). Though Deoxys-S is definitely the best one, so I'm going to take that into account when I make a decision.

So I'm going back and forward on this. On one hand it's very versatile, and can run plenty of sets. Download is just amazing pre-mega and can often decide games right then and there. However, we haven't tested it and in general it has some pretty solid checks/counters in Blissey, Skarmory, Primal Groudon, Ho-oh and various Arceus forms. But it's got ways around most of these I assume. Mixed, special, shift gear, pivot ect. Altarianite and Pinsirite give it -atespeed but at the cost of an absolutely atrocious defensive typing. Absolite make it fairly threatening as a pivot, but it loses to most rock setters one on one. Diancite is the more extreme form of Absolite. Metagross and Aerodactylite give it though claws making its physical set very difficult to switch into. As of now I'm probably going to do this.

1. Blaziken and Blazikenite stays banned
2. Genesect and Deoxys-S are suspected until the 5th, when Mix and Mega wins I'll establish a ranking system
3. The rest are unbanned

 

[Lcass4919]

as a vivid user of every playstyle, especially in mix and mega, i dont get whats the big deal with unbanning mons promoting hyper offense for this metagame. truth be told, this meta is allready a bulky onslaught, and even deoxys speed might be worthy of a suspect. this metagame is bulky over offensive. and sure, we have offensive powerhouses, but we also have bulkhemoths to sponge offense. and i feel like deoxys speed and defense wouldnt leave nearly as big of a impact as we would imagine in this tier, as the tier restricts deoxys to a specific ability defensively, and its revenge killing prowress isnt nearly as effective in this meta. not to mention, without focus sash, deoxys speed heavily is pressured to set hazards even WITH its increased bulk (50/120/120 isnt actually THAT much without investment) and dispite being an amazing offensive powerhouse in OU, it wont be nearly as good even WITH a power boost, since deoxys mainly prayed on frail sweepers, which was plentiful in OU, meanwhile, frail mons are actually pretty rare in MnM, since almost every stone gives at least SOME bulk increase, and even deoxys' speed cant help it from espeed, which albeit it HAS espeed of its own, it wont be nearly as common on its sets due to its allready insane speed, and lack of niche of running it. all in all, i can see its unban happening, it will be a decent hazard setter and revenge killer...but other then that, it just has too many flaws in my eyes. deoxys D is actually the more controversial of the two, since it actually HAS bulk, and its main niche is boosted even more with its new ability, bulk, and even some good retypings(psychic dragon, psychic steel though no moldy, psychic dark if your crazy and hate deoxys living etc) to help set up its hazards.


the way i see it, is speed will end up running a more offensive set, since without sash, its just too "frail" to set up hazards consistantly, especially with priority, bulkemoths, and plethora of defoggers in the tier to shrug off deos hazards once it goes down remember that the offensive curve of this meta is HUGE like...some mons hit ~200 attack huge. while defense will be the problem child, setting up hazards, and generally staying alive until the end of the battle, forcing you to lose. just like it did in OU.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

MIX AND MEGA IS OMOTM SEPTEMBER 2016

Congratulations guys! Good job :)

link

http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-september-voting.3580821/page-2#post-6970137

 

[sin(pi)]

raise your hands if you're surprised

...

*crickets*

...

Anyway, it's good to see this back. I actually wanted to use this post to explore mins that benefited from one of the rules GoS reverted (ie stats which exceed 255/drop below 1 are now capped), but... there's almost nothing that benefits. Shuckle is the obvious choice, but why are you using it without Banettite for Prankster hazards? Ampharosite is the only viable way the new rule is relevant - Moldy Hazards are always cool. In fact, Shuckle is the only Pokémon which CAN boost a stat beyond 255. There aren't any stones which drop attack (or special attack bar Beedrillite), and Blissey has no business dropping its defence. A handful of other mons can drop Def/SpDef/Speed (eg Diancite Sharpedo), but realistically they're all awful (dropping enough speed requires Snow Warning which hurts yourself, for example).
tl;dr this particular rule adds no new threats to the metagame except maaaaybe Ampharosite Shuckle. Pointless post? Maybe, but maybe not.

 

[How_Suspicious]

Awesome, it's been months since I played this very cool metal.

For those of us who are rusty, and new players, would it be possible for you vets to share some sample teams, to give a taste of what the meta is like? It's really hard to get an idea of how a well-played MnM game unfolds just from the analysis and opinions here.

 

[Kingofthesun]

While i can't quite give you teams, i can maybe give you some mons that i like in particular that i used back when it was OMOTM in february (take these mons w/ grains of salt my bois, i'm bad at pokemon)

Milotic @ Aggronite
Ability: Competitive
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Recover
- Dragon Tail

i always used this to stop E-speeders and just be a bulky annoying mon in general. scald is obvious for STAB and entei and arcanine , ice beam hits zygarde, recover for, well, recovery, and Dtail because screw your DDance (and if it's pixilate altarianite, the eq does little to nothing).

also, make sure you run loppunite something for them sablenite blisseys


I might post some more mons later, i love coming up w/ strange & weird sets. also can we strait-up make this an official other meta? it's more popular than BH!