Ladder Mix and Mega

Some other interesting stuff i have been using:

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very ugly (Zapdos) @ Manectite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe (something else is likely better but i wanted it to be both as bulky AND as fast as possible
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Roost
- Thunder Wave
- Defog / HP Ice / Heat Wave

Stats: 90/90/105/155/110/130


You thought that MegaMan was annoying enough? What if it was notably bulkier and had access to Roost to make it actually hard to kill? Combined with the bulk, Intimidate, volt switch and bulk, and ability to use Roost when needed and TWave to cripple mons, it is actually really hard to kill unless you can OHKO it (which isnt easy). Its fast, its bulky, its powerful. And its annoying.


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fATTY (Snorlax) @ Banettite
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Curse
- Body Slam
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

This thing is so stupid and hilarous. When there is no Ghost types left on enemy team, its wrecking ball that is hard to stop. Few curses makes it already very hard to kill. Even worse ís that the Curse is now priority move. And when its about to get down, it can use priority Rest to heal itself into full HP. If you thought Curselax is annoying, this is straight from your nightmares probably. Only flaw is that it ofc cant touch Ghost types and the fact RestTalk relies on RNG.
 
aasimursu3 said:
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fATTY (Snorlax) @ Banettite
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Curse
- Body Slam
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

This thing is so stupid and hilarous. When there is no Ghost types left on enemy team, its wrecking ball that is hard to stop. Few curses makes it already very hard to kill. Even worse ís that the Curse is now priority move. And when its about to get down, it can use priority Rest to heal itself into full HP. If you thought Curselax is annoying, this is straight from your nightmares probably. Only flaw is that it ofc cant touch Ghost types and the fact RestTalk relies on RNG.
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This set is annoying on quite a few fat mons. The one I hate running into most is Goodra w/ Dragon Tail. With hazard support it can phase around your team and wear down moms without healing. All these sets are notably weak to Taunt/Phasing
 
Yo so somehow got reqs
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This is actually my first time ever getting reqs so yay :D

Genesect:
As much as I love Genesect (it's a badass techno bug with a cannon on it's back, and it's purple ffs (unless it's shiny which you kind of need for ESpeed), it's like my second favourite 'mon behind Sceptile), it's honestly too good. It's also like the strongest Espeeder available (EDIT: apparently not :3), especially after a Download (Adamant Entei just outdamages it unboosted). While it didn't always get to come in (kind of only has one shot to exploit that Download boost), when it did, it usually did big damage (EDIT: an example of this is how in one match it came in and got two kills, iirc OHKOing a rather bulky 'mon with +1 Techno Blast). It's Pinsirite mixed Techno Blast set with Explosion, Extreme Speed and Thunder was just excellent when I used it, and is probably a big part of why I was able to get reqs. It usually got a kill whenever it got to do something in a match and never really disappointed me. And it's not like the opponent's teams threatened it too much, I was just too focused on winning the game instead of asserting dominance with Genesect. It's +1 Techno Blast 2hkod a Klinklang, and +1 espeed does like upwards 75% to Altarianite Entei and is probably I was able to get reqs in the first place haha. Oh yeah, and even without the download boost it can do damage *cough cough EXPLOSION cough cough*. I guess the only downside to it is that Heatran's a pain, but that's easy to deal with via team support. Honestly though, it does way too much damage for a single 'mon.

EDIT: lmao didn't even mention Shift Gear, potential +2 atk +2 speed Pinsirite Genesect sounds scary af the game's just over at that point tbh
EDIT 2: I didn't even mention the fact you have to guess which -ate it's running (Altarianite or Pinsirite) lmao

So overall, as much as I love the bug, I'm going to have to vote BAN. Sorry, no hard feelings Genesect. I hope you come back in Gen 7 OU though :D

Deoxys-S:
I never actually saw a single Deoxys-S surprisingly enough. Therefore, as I haven't seen or used it enough to get much of a grasp of it's performance, I will be voting ABSTAIN for now. I may go use a team with it between now and the time the votes are tallied though, so I may edit this vote (or do I have to make a separate post to change my vote on this?).


tl;dr:
Ban Genesect
Abstain Deoxys-S

For those curious, this is the team I used to get reqs:
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Genesect @ Pinsirite
Ability: Download
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 72 Atk / 184 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Explosion
- Extreme Speed
- Thunder
- Techno Blast

Thundurus @ Manectite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def
- Thunderbolt
- Nasty Plot
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Focus Blast

Skarmory @ Blue Orb
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Whirlwind
- Brave Bird
- Roost

Zygarde @ Altarianite
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Coil
- Return
- Extreme Speed
- Dragon Tail

Gengar @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hypnosis
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Wave
- Focus Blast

Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 252 HP / 56 Def / 200 SpD
Impish Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Precipice Blades
- Stone Edge
- Swords Dance
The team is built around the Pinsirite mixed Genesect set someone in this thread posted (can't remember their name though D:). It's shiny and Hasty because it has to be to get ESpeed, even though Purple Genesect is the best Genesect. Explosion is for when Genesect can't do an awful lot except outspeed one 'mon, and everything takes a tonne from it. Atespeed is atespeed, does tonnes after Aerilate, and especially if it gets the Download boost. Techno Blast hits pesky Primal Groudon and Ferrothorns without having to boom, doing a lot in the process. Manectite Nasty Plot Thundy is my win condition. It initially had Pidgeotite Thunder but Gengar took Pidgeotite priority on account of Pidgeotite Hypnosis being absurd, so I went with Manectite in the end. Also intimidates opposing Genesect. Blue Orb Skarmory is my Entei answer and rock setter. Also counters Donner too so that's nice. Altarianite Zygarde is my initial, general purpose Espeeder that doesn't double down the rocks weakness, Coil lets me be a win condition, DTail phazes things that try to boost on you, Return does damage after a few boosts and is for when that extra little bit of power is needed. Sure no EQ sucks but I have donner in the back for most steels and it phases most steels anyways, especially after a boost meaning Iron Head doesn't do a tonne and with Zygarde's natural bulk. Espeed notably RKs Hoopas, Noiverns and Thundys. Next, we have Pidgeotite Gengar with Hypnosis, oml this thing's absurd vs players that don't know how to beat fast sleep. Checks Altarianite Zygarde and Altarianite Entei, cripples fat things with sleep and proceeds to wittle away at them with Dual STAB + Focus Blast for Genesect and Thundurus. Finally, we have the ORAS cancerlord himself, Primal Donner Kebab. It's the standard Support spread to beat potential Xerneas and be generally annoying as all hell to break. I already had a rocker in Skarmory so I just put SD in the last slot, let's me hax past Arceus Waters, Skarmorys, etc. Edgequake because it's Edgequake. Donner also beats Espeed Entei and Altarianite Zygarde lacking Earthquake or something.

Potential weaknesses include maybe absurd amounts of spike stacking and potentially Sticky Webs (I came across some of that during reqs). idk what else there is though.
[/Explanation]
 
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I was doing some calcs last night which I thought people might find useful when comparing espeeders. All calcs were done vs neutral typing, uninvested 100/100 bulk for ease of comparison, and I've ordered them by power. I didn't bother including non-STAB Espeeds, though Glalitite Genesect/Entei hits harder than Lum unbooster Ekiller (even without the STAB boost!), if you're curious.

+2 252 Atk Pixilate Genesect (Altarianite) Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 397-468 (116.4 - 137.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO (if you get Download boost + Shift Gear)
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Genesect (Pinsirite) Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 378-445 (110.8 - 130.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 352-415 (103.2 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 325-384 (95.3 - 112.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 321-380 (94.1 - 111.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Entei (Altarianite) Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 319-376 (93.5 - 110.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Arcanine (Altarianite) Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 312-367 (91.4 - 107.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Entei (Pinsirite) Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 303-357 (88.8 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Pixilate Genesect (Altarianite) Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 297-351 (87 - 102.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Silk Scarf Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 297-349 (87 - 102.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Arcanine (Pinsirite) Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 295-348 (86.5 - 102%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Zygarde (Altarianite) Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 295-348 (86.5 - 102%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Aerilate Genesect (Pinsirite) Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 283-334 (82.9 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Pixilate Arcanine (Altarianite) Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 283-334 (82.9 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Zygarde (Pinsirite) Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 280-330 (82.1 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 271-319 (79.4 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Aerilate Arcanine (Pinsirite) Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 270-318 (79.1 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Pixilate Zygarde (Altarianite) Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 270-318 (79.1 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Aerilate Zygarde (Pinsirite) Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 255-301 (74.7 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 247-292 (72.4 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Pixilate Entei (Altarianite) Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 213-252 (62.4 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Pixilate Arcanine (Altarianite) Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 208-246 (60.9 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Entei (Pinsirite) Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 204-240 (59.8 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Pixilate Genesect (Altarianite) Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 199-235 (58.3 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Arcanine (Pinsirite) Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 196-232 (57.4 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Pixilate Zygarde (Altarianite) Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 196-232 (57.4 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Aerilate Genesect (Pinsirite) Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 189-223 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Pixilate Arcanine (Altarianite) Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 189-223 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Zygarde (Pinsirite) Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 186-220 (54.5 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Aerilate Arcanine (Pinsirite) Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 180-213 (52.7 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Pixilate Zygarde (Altarianite) Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 180-213 (52.7 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 175-208 (51.3 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Aerilate Zygarde (Pinsirite) Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 169-201 (49.5 - 58.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 161-191 (47.2 - 56%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 163-193 (47.8 - 56.5%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Silk Scarf Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 148-175 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 135-160 (39.5 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 124-147 (36.3 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Thoughts: LO/Silk Scarf Adamant Ekiller is probably the best cleaner, as you can EV it to have the fastest Espeed (ie the others can't revenge). Shift Gear Genesect is a good alternative which hits as hard as Jolly Silk Scarf after 1 boost each, and outspeeds everything at +2. Entei is the best revenge killer, though surprisingly Adamant Arcanine hits harder than Genesect! Let me know if I missed any mons/calcs here (Gene/Entei are event locked so they only have the one nature).
 
I don't agree with dropping Mew. All it's sets do exactly what they set out to do, and do so consistently. In addition, it can be difficult to know what a well placed Mew is going to do until it starts doing so, which leaves you very vulnerable through the early game, when Mew is best saved (even SR mew should wait a bit unless it's clear early game rocks are 100% necessary. )

Lopunnite breaks Blissey incredibly efficiently, Ampharosite is unbothered by Blissey, and Sablenite appreciates the chance to either pass boosts OR has a reliable Blissey answer waiting in the wings, like you would with any releatiely passive defensive pokemon. I've never felt Pidgeotite was particularly good so I don't think it's that relevant.

If anything hurts Mew, it's that Deo-S can do a lot of similar stuff but with less bulk / more speed, which makes them very unsimilar in practice.

Schpoonman said:
All three of Entei, Zygarde, and Genesect (assuming Genesect stays) belong in S-tier. Mix and Mega exists around Atespeed and they warp the metagame around themselves. Genesect has unpredictability (mixed capability and the only one that can regularly beat Blue Orb Skarmory AKA only Skarmory, on top of ), Entei has the raw turn-one power (discounting Download, as barring turn-one sweeps, most Genesects will eventually switch out and lose their Download boost) and is the only Atespeeder capable of consistently beating Levitran ([252+ Atk Entei Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 178-211 (46.1 - 54.6%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO Entei with 145 Attack and Heatran with 136 Defense]), while Zygarde has the best bulk out of all of them to come in multiple times to set up Dragon Dance and has Earthquake to break bulky Steel, Poison, and Fire-types that otherwise wall Pixi Speed.
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I agree with most of what you've said regarding Espeeders, but I think it's worth mentioning that Arcanine can also beat Levitran with close combat, (including max defense levitran if it's Adamant). In general, I personally think Arc does better on dedicated Espeed spam teams because of it's coverage and ability to harass common blue orb steels, whereas Entei is a more reliable standalone mon.
 
 
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The nomination of Water Arceus has been changed. Instead of C / B-, it's now being nominated for A- / B+. It can check a wide variety of Pokémon in Mix and Mega like Entei, Arcanine, Victini, Weavile and Heatran. It can also run Earth Power to lure in and weaken Blue Orb users - even with no investment it OHKOes Rash Raikou. With Will-O-Wisp it can check most physical attackers, and it has a niche as a Defogger since it isn't weak to entry hazards.
 
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Ban Genesect.
Its immediate speed may be a bit slow but it puts immense pressure on teams by being able to have a +1 espeed due to download, take out physically defensive threats with techno blast, setup and sweep under prepared teams with shift gear, pop checks like Skarmory with coverage moves such as thunderbolt, u-turn out to keep momentum, or even just +1 ate boom. It does far too much too well to be kept legal.

Do not ban Deoxys-S
Its sets were very underwhelming in my experience. While fast taunt and hazards are good, that is all that it can really do. It can't setup and sweep due its frailty and difficulty finding a safe turn to nasty plot. Without setup it doesn't hit nearly hard enough with its base 90 s.atk before mega evolving which even with a mega stone is relatively weak for mnm standards. Psycho boost does do a lot of damage behind 155 pidgeotite s.atk but it gives the opponent a free turn. Overall it was just underwhelming and should not be banned.
 
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Ban Genesect. It's mixed options are ridiculous at wallbreaking, and having one of the fastest espeeds around gives it an excellent matchup against offense. Coming in against any wall gives it a favorable download boost and an easy time setting up Shift Gear. If you're running U-Turn, you can delay the mega and keep your typing until you want to sweep or wallbreak. I don't think I need to say much on this one.

Ban Deo-S. My issue with Deo-S is that there aren't any pokemon that can remove hazards and beat it. Excadrill is the best at this, but sucks in MnM. Skarmory gets taunted and tbolted, starmie can't touch it and gets tbolted, tenta gets bopped, mew can't really do anything once its taunted, latios has a really rough time getting off a defog with all the fairies around, and magic bouncers are useless. In addition, 145 SpA with 170 speed makes it a really good revenge killer, and 50/110/110 bulk is quite a lot if you invest in HP. If you want hazards up, there's no reason not to use Deo-S.
 
ihhca said:
Ban Deo-S. My issue with Deo-S is that there aren't any pokemon that can remove hazards and beat it. Excadrill is the best at this, but sucks in MnM. Skarmory gets taunted and tbolted, starmie can't touch it and gets tbolted, tenta gets bopped, mew can't really do anything once its taunted, latios has a really rough time getting off a defog with all the fairies around, and magic bouncers are useless. In addition, 145 SpA with 170 speed makes it a really good revenge killer, and 50/110/110 bulk is quite a lot if you invest in HP. If you want hazards up, there's no reason not to use Deo-S.
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Ive been running Gyaradosite Mew as an anti-DeoS lead with great success. Almost everyone leads Deo to get up their rocks but when they see Mew, they know to go for a Taunt turn 1. I run U-turn and always go for it turn 1 since the Taunt is guaranteed coming. Uninvested does like 40% and I come in with any atespeeder and force the switch or Deo dies
 
First time getting requirements so that's cool (I'm tired, though.)
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Voting ban on Genesect - With potent moves and abilities to abuse such as Aerilate STAB ExtremeSpeed, Aerilate STAB Techno Blast and Pinsirite's Attack boosts, it isn't hard to tell that this Pokemon is broken. I feel as though this Pokemon is broken in Mix and Mega due to the potent moves it can carry (such as ExtremeSpeed, as well as being able to explode (Although I do love to end matches with a bang.) Genesect's ExtremeSpeed has a BP of 104 with Aerilate, and I'm not even factoring in STAB. A BP as high as that is extremely easy to abuse and requires no skill to spam whatsoever. Genesect also gets a Download boost beforehand, definitely making it even more powerful than it already is, be it on the Special side or Physical. Let's not forget Genesect having one of the most potent setup moves for a Physical attacker, Shift Gear. Use it once, and I'm pretty sure you'll have one of the fastest, if not the fastest, ExtremeSpeed in the metagame. While Pinsirite Genesect is 4x weak to Stealth Rock, wouldn't teams using Pinsirite Genesect generally carry hazard removal? With such a plethora of options (there are more than mentioned, but as I said, I'm tired.), I don't really see any point in not banning it.

Going to vote no ban on Deoxys-Speed - I feel as though you should be running hazard removal if you consider entry hazards to be such a threat, and even more so if you consider this to be ban worthy. Sure, you might have to have a Pokemon exclusively dedicated to Prankster Support or something due to Deoxys-S' high speed, but as I said, if you consider it a threat, run something to counter it. I feel like most Deoxys-S sets run Gyaradosite or Ampharosite, since those are the sets with Mold Breaker. Since this is the case, isn't Deoxys-S easily ruined by Altarianite Entei? Both of those add a typing weak to Fairy. I don't find it to be overcentralizing, either, since a lot of teams run Altarianite Entei.
 
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Got reqs

I'm voting ban on Genesect. I think it's clearly too powerful for the meta; it beats the majority of -atespeed checks AND is quite a bit more powerful than them AND is faster than most other -iate speeders (pretty much all of them, bar Deo-S). On top of that, it has somewhat unexplored sets, such as Diancite and Lucarionite, that I think give it too much versatility and too much power. Almost nothing can reliably switch into Genesect as well, which is further compounded by it's access to a STAB U-turn, something I never saw but was terrified of witnessing every match.

I'm voting to abstain from Deoxys-S. I never saw "lead" sets do much of anything that couldn't be replicated by existing pokemon. Offensive sets were rare, but I believe they have a lot of potential and might be worth exploring some more. In particular, I think most mega stones that work on Mew have potential, but I never saw that potential in action. I ran Lopunnite and personally felt it was a very strong offensive mon, but not particularly stronger than, say, Lopunnite Arcanine or Lopunnite Mew, minus being crazy fast. I personally intend to explore Cameruptite (160 speed is still ridiculously fast), Pidgeotite, Diancite, and maybe an -iate set. It has potential, but I've never seen anyone do something unreasonable with it unless the opponent's team was ridiculously unprepared for hazards.
 
Lord Death Man said:
I don't agree with dropping Mew. All it's sets do exactly what they set out to do, and do so consistently. In addition, it can be difficult to know what a well placed Mew is going to do until it starts doing so, which leaves you very vulnerable through the early game, when Mew is best saved (even SR mew should wait a bit unless it's clear early game rocks are 100% necessary. )

Lopunnite breaks Blissey incredibly efficiently, Ampharosite is unbothered by Blissey, and Sablenite appreciates the chance to either pass boosts OR has a reliable Blissey answer waiting in the wings, like you would with any releatiely passive defensive pokemon. I've never felt Pidgeotite was particularly good so I don't think it's that relevant.

If anything hurts Mew, it's that Deo-S can do a lot of similar stuff but with less bulk / more speed, which makes them very unsimilar in practice.


I agree with most of what you've said regarding Espeeders, but I think it's worth mentioning that Arcanine can also beat Levitran with close combat, (including max defense levitran if it's Adamant). In general, I personally think Arc does better on dedicated Espeed spam teams because of it's coverage and ability to harass common blue orb steels, whereas Entei is a more reliable standalone mon.
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I always forget something. You're right, I've been seeing a lot of Arcanine lately for its coverage moves. Adamant Altarianite (or just a 40 Attack boost from any Stone) puts Skarmory in decent 2HKO range from Wild Charge (66% after Rocks), as well. Definitely something to consider, as well as the fact that it has Morning Sun for potentially keeping it in the fight longer.
 
We need a mega Flygon, but I don't see any outstanding mega stones for him. Lucarionite is the closest but it doesn't deal enough damage.
I think Arbok with Banettite would be cool, a priority stockpile is always welcome. Gyradosite would also work, give crunch some stab and add on some bulk.
Luxray could work with Metagrossite, I think.
 
garoninja said:
I found a bug(visual bug?), maybe it's not a bug, with Pressure(ability) i dont know if it affects on the first turn but, after some turns it showed my opponent had -3 pp with the move
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-431236713
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I saw this earlier as I was using Aggronite Vespiquen. Pressure is still thought to be working on your side, but actually isn't. It would be nice to fix this bug.

Banettite Arbok sounds pretty interesting. Though mostly for priority Coil and stupidly strong Gunk Shots and Sucker Punches. (We have Altarianite Flygon already. It gets Boomburst.)

In my mind, Arcanine, Entei, and Zygarde are all equal. They likely all deserve S-Ranks for how good at their job all of them are. The main thing setting them apart are their coverage options. Entei gets Stone Edge and a better Fire STAB. Arcanine gets Close Combat, which is amazing for smacking Blue Orb Steels, and Wild Charge, for the rest of the Blue Orb nonsense. Zygarde gets Coil, allowing it to be far and away the bulkiest of the three on paper. Outrage also stings, too.

Mew probably deserves an S-Rank in the hands of a skilled player. Even more than Deoxys, it isn't really BAD with any Mega Stone. Lopunnite turns it into a sweeper that takes on its usual counters with ease. The Orbs are open to it, too. But I don't fully recommend that. And its standard choices still turn Mew into a powerhouse.

I haven't seen Water Arceus, but I'll take your word for it. It does suffer from severe 4 Moveslot Syndrome, which can leave it worse against some threats with the wrong set.
I have nothing more to say for the rest for now. (Interesting that you did not add Empoleon on the rankings. Is it not used enough for you to know?)
 
Alright so first of all Arceus-Water is fantastic and has been on both of my good HO teams due to it being a pretty good ate check, decent cm cleaner, and general fatmon. Access to a variety of coverage and a vast support movepool (Toxic, SR, Defog, etc.) and pretty good typing (neutral to pixi/aerilate, resists fridge, resists fire) make it a very splashable (haha get it bcz its water type and holds splash plate) mon in the meta, so I can see it in A-.

Second im gonna nom Hitmonlee for C rank, it's a pretty fun offensive spinner. I've been using Lopunnite and while it's nothing amazing it does its job most of the time and has decent power. It can also rk stuff with Fake Out+Sucker Punch which is handy at times. Not top tier by any means but a decent enough mon (I went 10-0 with it to get reqs and beat glyx/xjownage/bpscrub, and my irl fren got reqs with the same team, going 13-0 if that means anything, and it also got to the finals of the official today before I got haxed rip) so I think it could be placed in C rank.

Next, Mega Gengar. Why was this unbanned again?? It still demolishes stall. Apparently the unban argument was ubers handles it and this is an ubers based om, but in ubers, if u have a mon weak to MegaGar, you can run Shed Shell on it. This isn't the case in mix and mega, bcz running Shed Shell means you aren't running a mega stone, which is worse against the entire rest of the meta. Now I know stall isn't the best playstyle, but that doesn't mean we have to completely invalidate it, as if you built a good team I could see some form of stall being very good. It also puts in work against balanced teams as it can remove their defensive backbone and basically mandates things like Shadow Ball Blissey, which you otherwise wouldn't run (unless ur rly weak to reg Gengar ig but that's beside the point). I don't see how it getting a free KO on so many things and invalidating an entire playstyle is healthy for the meta (and it can come in easily e.g. Red Orb Raikou used Volt Switch! *Mega Gengar KOs special wall* now raikou or other mons are free to sweep).

Finally, apparently to keep gene in ubers, pro-ban needs a 60% majority, this doesn't make any sense to me? It was already in ubers, so if people want it to come down shouldn't it need a 60% unban majority? I always assumed that for something to change tiers, it needed the majority to do so, and any less than that resulted in remaining with the status quo. Someone explain.

Also is anyone gonna argue against the points I raised in my last post or did I convince everyone to change their minds and ban gene (seems unlikely lel).
 
Some few things I like to use


Scrafty @ Charizardite X
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Crunch
- Dragon Claw
- Poison Jab

Step 1- Force a Swap with Intimidate
Step 2- Dragon Dance a few times
Step 3- Sweet sweep
Only problem are the Extreme speeders in the meta.


Samurott @ Metagrossite
Ability: Shell Armor
EVs: 252 Atk / 8 SpD / 248 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- X-Scissor/Megahorn
- Waterfall
- Aqua Jet

Works... Sometimes.


Registeel @ Aggronite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Curse
- Iron Head
- Stealth Rock

Just stallin' out. Still testing.
 
H2FA4pp.png


Well this was fun. I played a few rounds of this tier and rapidly became addicted. I've now played 60 lifetime games, splitting 45-15 with a GXE of exactly 75.0%.

The team I've been using can be found here:

Genesect @ Altarianite
Ability: Download
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Techno Blast
- Thunderbolt
- Flamethrower
- Extreme Speed

Keldeo-Resolute @ Lucarionite
Ability: Justified
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Secret Sword
- Scald
- Protect

Entei @ Pinsirite
Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Return
- Sacred Fire
- Iron Head
- Extreme Speed

Raikou @ Red Orb
Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Thunderbolt
- Weather Ball
- Aura Sphere

Gengar-Mega @ Gengarite
Ability: Shadow Tag
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Wave
- Dazzling Gleam

Heatran @ Latiasite
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Lava Plume
- Flash Cannon
- Will-O-Wisp

It's seen a lot of change as I got to know the tier better, but I rather like this version. Keldeo is probably the weakest member of the team, and now that I've made req's I'm going to try skarm-blue over it.

Genesect: No ban
Genesect is a powerful pokemon for sure, but I do not think it is ban-worthy. It is checked by other -ate creatures (basically all of them beat genesect), Heatran, Zapdos-manec, Ferrothron-blue, and Blissey. Zapdos-manec in particular is someone I think that people should seriously look into, it's a complete boss.

Deox-S: No ban
In 60 games I faced it twice. I didn't think it was that good, and the fact that so few people were playing it seems significant as well. The lack of hazard removal in this tier is interesting, but I am glad that there are options for massive hazard set ups.
 
poopmcgee said:
We need a mega Flygon, but I don't see any outstanding mega stones for him. Lucarionite is the closest but it doesn't deal enough damage.
I think Arbok with Banettite would be cool, a priority stockpile is always welcome. Gyradosite would also work, give crunch some stab and add on some bulk.
Luxray could work with Metagrossite, I think.
Click to expand...


The best way to use Flygon is to go to Team Builder and use Garchomp instead.

Schpoonman mentioned it in a previous post but this metagame is becoming a tad bit team building constricted with EspeedAte users. Not having an EspeedAte user makes your team that much worse. Also not running an atespeed counter leaves your team in a bad rock paper scissors of who has the better stone for their ate user. Now this isnt to say all battles go this way, but there is definitely a constrict on team building in this metagame that makes it hard to win without breaking these limits.


Towards the reqs. I noticed some people voting without reading the rules to vote
"
Here's how you vote,
  • First of all you need to haveSuspectingDeoxysGenesect in your name (SDG). I will only allow you to vote if you have SDG in your team!
  • Secondly you need to have 25 or less battles on a account with 75 GXE
  • Third and most importantly, I want you to specify with atleast 6 lines why you voted the way you did."
I Dont want to police anyone on what to do. I just dont want your votes not to count. Idk how Grain of Salt will take it. But as the saying goes "Your vote matters!!"
 
jamashawalker said:
The best way to use Flygon is to go to Team Builder and use Garchomp instead.

Schpoonman mentioned it in a previous post but this metagame is becoming a tad bit team building constricted with EspeedAte users. Not having an EspeedAte user makes your team that much worse. Also not running an atespeed counter leaves your team in a bad rock paper scissors of who has the better stone for their ate user. Now this isnt to say all battles go this way, but there is definitely a constrict on team building in this metagame that makes it hard to win without breaking these limits.


Towards the reqs. I noticed some people voting without reading the rules to vote
"
Here's how you vote,
  • First of all you need to haveSuspectingDeoxysGenesect in your name (SDG). I will only allow you to vote if you have SDG in your team!
  • Secondly you need to have 25 or less battles on a account with 75 GXE
  • Third and most importantly, I want you to specify with atleast 6 lines why you voted the way you did."
I Dont want to police anyone on what to do. I just dont want your votes not to count. Idk how Grain of Salt will take it. But as the saying goes "Your vote matters!!"
Click to expand...

The former are to prevent that you're familiar with a metagame where Genesect and Deoxys-S is present. Having SDG in your name means that your rank from february doesn't count and GXE just makes it so there's a certain skill gap to vote.

The latter, som lines of discussion is simply for me to add into the eventul suspect folder.

I'll be clear and honest with all of you, Mix and Mega is changing a bit. Not so much in terms of ban list but right now ChrystalFalchion has revamped the entire VR with the correct sprites, which is amazing since the last one had gotten corrupted, we've also gotten consistent slates that'll occour every couple of days during this month and then slow down when Mix and Mega isn't OMOTM. We've also got the nv who has redone the ENTIRE stones viability, it's not just a throphy VR but something I'm sure NV will take good care of, and it looks gorgeous. The picture overviewing the stones and their respective changes has also been re-done by Shavedbear removing some restricted stones.

We're in the middle of a complete rehaul of the ban list, with almost everything being discussed bar some of the most powerful legendaries. A lot of people confuse me unbanning/testing everything with me trying to change MnM, but it's simply me preparing the metagame for permanent ladder. And just to add my own opinion on Genesect, it's broken because it can go mixed. While Zygarde and Entei are purely physical Genesect can easily go mixed and bop conventional -ate checks, almost forcing you to run somehing purely for it it. That is what makes it broken, not shift gear or download(although this reall helps). And that brings me to the topic of -ates in general, since a lot of people believe -Ate Extreme Speed is broken and want a ban on that combination.

I can tell you, with 100% certainy that is never going to happen. Extreme speed isn't broken, it isn't broken on multiple pokemon so alone it would never get banned, all the other move bans have been because they were inherently uncompetitive. The type of moves that get banned for being broken are like, 200 BP perfect accuracy and +6 priority. Espeed isn't like that, it's a fairly weak move with priority, -it just works really well with Pixilate, Galilate(?) or Aerilate. And Ate isn't broken either, it isn't broken on Klingklang, Metagross or Cobalion and it certainly isn't broken on Zygarde or Entei. And the combination of the two aren't always broken, Gardevoirite Togekiss wouldn't be broken.

So let us get on with the suspect, 4

So this was good, the suspect went good. 10-5 in favour of banning Genesect, so Genesect is now banned and 14-3 in favour of not banning Deoxys-S mean it stays unbanned.

That was suspect 3.1 Fairytale over, next suspect will be literal heat ;)
 
...Are you telling us that there's a battle limit on getting the proper GXE? I personally don't agree with that. Getting 75% GXE is difficult enough as is; doing so in 25 battles locks people out that want to experiment around with certain teams or just get unlucky (And the reset button doesn't take away your GXE, so it's kind of meaningless).

That minor grumble aside, I'm satisfied with the suspect results, and I'll try meeting the rules for the next one.

There's something to keep in mind about Mega Gengar. Mix and Mega is far from a passive metagame, and finding good trapping targets are pretty rare outside of the Blissey variants. Worst-case scenario is that the opponent knows you have Shadow Tag Mega Gengar, and switches in Salamancite/Pinsirite Noivern to punish you for it. The best-case scenario is that you trap a Blissey. There's a very good reason why it's uncommon, and really isn't that big of a threat with powerful bulky attackers around, and Boomburst/Hyper Voice being common moves.
 
Zephyr Dragon Lord said:
...Are you telling us that there's a battle limit on getting the proper GXE? I personally don't agree with that. Getting 75% GXE is difficult enough as is; doing so in 25 battles locks people out that want to experiment around with certain teams or just get unlucky (And the reset button doesn't take away your GXE, so it's kind of meaningless).

That minor grumble aside, I'm satisfied with the suspect results, and I'll try meeting the rules for the next one.

There's something to keep in mind about Mega Gengar. Mix and Mega is far from a passive metagame, and finding good trapping targets are pretty rare outside of the Blissey variants. Worst-case scenario is that the opponent knows you have Shadow Tag Mega Gengar, and switches in Salamancite/Pinsirite Noivern to punish you for it. The best-case scenario is that you trap a Blissey. There's a very good reason why it's uncommon, and really isn't that big of a threat with powerful bulky attackers around, and Boomburst/Hyper Voice being common moves.
Click to expand...

In what way does Sound based moves particularly threaten Mega Gengar anymore than other means? Also how does Noivern punish you? You know Shadow Taggers themselves can switchout anytime right?

And on another note, if you all thought this suspect was bad, wait til next time.

I already have my Lucarionite Blaziken and Speed Boost watever mon ready.
 
G-Luke said:
In what way does Sound based moves particularly threaten Mega Gengar anymore than other means? Also how does Noivern punish you? You know Shadow Taggers themselves can switchout anytime right?

And on another note, if you all thought this suspect was bad, wait til next time.

I already have my Lucarionite Blaziken and Speed Boost watever mon ready.
Click to expand...
Sound moves takes away Mega Gengar's safety behind a Substitute, which the perish trapping variant typically relies on. And nothing REALLY wants to take an Aerilate Boomburst...

Oh, I was talking about the whole requirement mess. I don't even know if my voting counted. And don't worry about me; I have a Gyarados already queued up to take them both on my main team.
 
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