Yeah Ditto is very good in Mix and Mega. Near the end of the last month that M&M was playable, 3 out of 5 of the top ladder players used it on their team. It's also on the Viability Rankings at B-.
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Ladder Mix and Mega
- Thread starter Imperator Romanum
- Start date
Sablenite
Ok here goes nothing...
Genesect: no ban
Yes, it is strong as hell. Yes, techno blast hits like a truck. But there are quite a few flaws preventing genesect from being op.
1) it takes your ate stone
genesect is not nearly as good without ate, because then it's two best moves (espeed and techno blast) dont hit very hard. And im pretty sure every team i have faced has had an altarianite mon besides full out stall, and you aren't using this on stall. So don't evaluate gene in a vacuum, compare it to all the other altarianite mons and see if it really is that good in comparison.
2) it's best the first time
Especially when one of your moves is u-turn, it kinda sucks that you can only get the download boost the first time around.
3) it's weak to other espeeders
This is what did it for me. It dies to any pinsirite espeed, and what's running altarianite? entei, which resists both genesects stabs regardless.
4) it's speed tier sucks
in ou this was borked because scarfed u-turn just stole the momentum and because it was so fast. But in this meta, 99 speed is nothing at all. If it wants to kill faster stuff with espeed, then yes it is strong, but then it will be just another espeeder. You rarely have the time to fire off a techno blast against offensive teams. And like i mentioned earlier, its bug typing is really shitty, so every other espeeder beats it. So what are you killing with it? This and point 1 are the two main reasons, the others are just icing on the cake.
So yes, genesecet is strong, but the speed tier comes up short and other altarianite mons are also very strong.
Deoxys speed: no ban
I literally have not seen this at all on the ladder. And i don't think the ability to set up hazards is broken, especially when stall runs defog anyway. No ban unless it starts running amok on the ladder. In a meta dominated by espeeders, it's not good enough.
Genesect: no ban
Yes, it is strong as hell. Yes, techno blast hits like a truck. But there are quite a few flaws preventing genesect from being op.
1) it takes your ate stone
genesect is not nearly as good without ate, because then it's two best moves (espeed and techno blast) dont hit very hard. And im pretty sure every team i have faced has had an altarianite mon besides full out stall, and you aren't using this on stall. So don't evaluate gene in a vacuum, compare it to all the other altarianite mons and see if it really is that good in comparison.
2) it's best the first time
Especially when one of your moves is u-turn, it kinda sucks that you can only get the download boost the first time around.
3) it's weak to other espeeders
This is what did it for me. It dies to any pinsirite espeed, and what's running altarianite? entei, which resists both genesects stabs regardless.
4) it's speed tier sucks
in ou this was borked because scarfed u-turn just stole the momentum and because it was so fast. But in this meta, 99 speed is nothing at all. If it wants to kill faster stuff with espeed, then yes it is strong, but then it will be just another espeeder. You rarely have the time to fire off a techno blast against offensive teams. And like i mentioned earlier, its bug typing is really shitty, so every other espeeder beats it. So what are you killing with it? This and point 1 are the two main reasons, the others are just icing on the cake.
So yes, genesecet is strong, but the speed tier comes up short and other altarianite mons are also very strong.
Deoxys speed: no ban
I literally have not seen this at all on the ladder. And i don't think the ability to set up hazards is broken, especially when stall runs defog anyway. No ban unless it starts running amok on the ladder. In a meta dominated by espeeders, it's not good enough.
shuckle aggronite it makes shuckle tankier plus if they don't have fire moves shuckle can do its trolls
maybe b tier since it can be countered with dragon tail spore but when it works xD
Troll
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-429882223
maybe b tier since it can be countered with dragon tail spore but when it works xD
Troll
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-429882223
The thing is, Genesect can use pinsirite, which I think is the best option, and the added speed means that it outspeed the other e-speeders (other than deoxys). They run adamant, while gene is hasty. Because of this speed, it can use U-turn to pivot out on anything it can't ohko. If you just pair it with red orb Raikou, you get a frankly disgusting VoltTurn core that just blows through each other's checks.
Genesect also has Shift Gear, by far the best setup option among espeeders, meaning that it isn't easily revenge and can just outright sweep if it wants. It can also do special "lure" or just mixed sets, which no other ate-speeder can truly do. The special coverage it has is truly fantastic, so there is not much it can't dent on a switch in. Its one short coming offensively is physical coverage, but blaze kick deals with most non-primordial sea steals and it can just U-turn on everything else. BAN BAN BAN
I'd like to add to this by saying I've been using a very similar Sablenite set:
Volcarona @ Sablenite
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Bug Buzz
- Fiery Dance
- Quiver Dance
- Giga Drain
Even with almost no defensive investment, it has only slightly less physical bulk than the Absolite set:
0 Atk Primal Groudon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sablenite Volcarona: 160-189 (51.4 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Primal Groudon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Absolite Volcarona: 169-201 (45.1 - 53.7%) -- 37.9% chance to 2HKO
However, it has way more special bulk, and more power to boot. Of course, it's much, much slower even at full speed, but at +1, the Sablenite set outspeeds Glalitite Weavile and even a post-mega Jolly Pinsirite Cobalion (After playing around with the EVs, I've found that I can take 4 out of speed and put them into Defense). In practice, it's probably won half of every single match I've played.
Is there a sample team thread for this?
There isn't a dedicated thread, but there are some teams in the regular om sample thread.
I've reached requirements. Finally! (Since I am a complete nub at pictures, simply have my rank, Elo, and GXE numbers at this time: [Rank: 3 Name: Zephyr_DragonLord Elo: 1559 GXE: 75.1%])
Now then... my verdicts.
Genesect: BAN, BAN, BAN! This insectoid terror is broken beyond belief, being a threat that even Balanced Hackmons would find decently threatening! Running Techno Blast and Extreme Speed on the same set allows it to break a ton of walls AND outpace most Extreme Speeders. It also has the spectrum of elemental moves to cover for its -ate of choice. This is nastier than Dragonite when it comes to revenging, and that's saying something. (As for the proof, there are the people who I've beaten down with Genesect. And that's not a small number)
Deoxys-S: I am not so sure on this one. I feel as though we have hardly even glimpsed into its true potential. I have not seen a single -ate Deoxys-S, which kind of confuses me. Even with 50 base HP, Deoxys-S can do so much more besides setting unblockable hazards.
Cameruptite sets are pretty nice, the -ates allow it to revenge other E-Speeders, and it can even tank with more defensive stones. It could use almost every stone you give it reasonably well... I will Abstain from this vote due to a lack of information on its true power...
Deoxys-D: I am much more comfortable talking about the defensive counterpart, though. While it is a defensive stalwart (and a good one), there is a ton of competition from Blissey, Aololamola, Suicune, and many, many others who might fit a team better. It can also try its hand at using a mega stone for E-Speed potential. And while that will work decently, it will lack the power of other candidates. With all that, my vote for this is Don't Ban.
Now then... my verdicts.
Genesect: BAN, BAN, BAN! This insectoid terror is broken beyond belief, being a threat that even Balanced Hackmons would find decently threatening! Running Techno Blast and Extreme Speed on the same set allows it to break a ton of walls AND outpace most Extreme Speeders. It also has the spectrum of elemental moves to cover for its -ate of choice. This is nastier than Dragonite when it comes to revenging, and that's saying something. (As for the proof, there are the people who I've beaten down with Genesect. And that's not a small number)
Deoxys-S: I am not so sure on this one. I feel as though we have hardly even glimpsed into its true potential. I have not seen a single -ate Deoxys-S, which kind of confuses me. Even with 50 base HP, Deoxys-S can do so much more besides setting unblockable hazards.
Cameruptite sets are pretty nice, the -ates allow it to revenge other E-Speeders, and it can even tank with more defensive stones. It could use almost every stone you give it reasonably well... I will Abstain from this vote due to a lack of information on its true power...
Deoxys-D: I am much more comfortable talking about the defensive counterpart, though. While it is a defensive stalwart (and a good one), there is a ton of competition from Blissey, Aololamola, Suicune, and many, many others who might fit a team better. It can also try its hand at using a mega stone for E-Speed potential. And while that will work decently, it will lack the power of other candidates. With all that, my vote for this is Don't Ban.
I think that genesect is some what underrated in this tier, with a altarianite it gets stab pixilate boosted extreme speed and explosion which after a download boost can ohko max defense sablenite blissey
+1 252 Atk Pixilate Genesect Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 912-1074 (127.7 - 150.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(912, 922, 933, 945, 955, 966, 976, 987, 997, 1009, 1020, 1030, 1041, 1051, 1062, 1074)
In addition it gets u-turn which allows it to pivot really well, especially considering it can be used to help get the correct download boost. While genesect does have subpar speed, especially in this meta, as previously stated it has extreme speed to mitigate this shortcoming.
+1 252 Atk Pixilate Genesect Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 912-1074 (127.7 - 150.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(912, 922, 933, 945, 955, 966, 976, 987, 997, 1009, 1020, 1030, 1041, 1051, 1062, 1074)
In addition it gets u-turn which allows it to pivot really well, especially considering it can be used to help get the correct download boost. While genesect does have subpar speed, especially in this meta, as previously stated it has extreme speed to mitigate this shortcoming.
I'm Tommytt22, and this is my metagame (not really). I work here with my old man and my son, "Big Hoss." Everything in here has a story and a damage calculation. One thing I've learned after 21 years - you never know what sets are gonna come through that door.
Gyarados (M) @ Pinsirite
Ability: Intimidate
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Frustration
- Earthquake
Finally has a better stab than bounce, and can eat a hit with intimidate before he mega evolves.
Haxorus @ Aggronite
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
- Poison Jab
Pretty unexpected and can easily ddance while catching the opponent off guard. Nice boost to attack and heaps of bulk for setting up.
Landorus-Therian @ Mewtwonite X
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Hammer arm/ Brick Break
- Earthquake
- Bulk Up
- Stone Edge
I think this was already mentioned somewhere with the exception of bulk up.
+1 252 Atk Landorus-T Brick Break vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 480-566 (125.6 - 148.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Whereas
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 161-191 (50.4 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Pretty handy, not to mention he shreds primal groudon
+1 252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Primal Groudon: 434-512 (107.4 - 126.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I've only been playing a few hours and i only wanted to post sets i havent seen others use, so no sablenite florges or blue orb skarmory, even though they are great
Gyarados (M) @ Pinsirite
Ability: Intimidate
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Frustration
- Earthquake
Finally has a better stab than bounce, and can eat a hit with intimidate before he mega evolves.
Haxorus @ Aggronite
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
- Poison Jab
Pretty unexpected and can easily ddance while catching the opponent off guard. Nice boost to attack and heaps of bulk for setting up.
Landorus-Therian @ Mewtwonite X
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Hammer arm/ Brick Break
- Earthquake
- Bulk Up
- Stone Edge
I think this was already mentioned somewhere with the exception of bulk up.
+1 252 Atk Landorus-T Brick Break vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 480-566 (125.6 - 148.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Whereas
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 161-191 (50.4 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Pretty handy, not to mention he shreds primal groudon
+1 252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Primal Groudon: 434-512 (107.4 - 126.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I've only been playing a few hours and i only wanted to post sets i havent seen others use, so no sablenite florges or blue orb skarmory, even though they are great
will edit this post with a reqs pic and my vote, but
Can people please post replays showcasing Genesect (and Deo-S if they think it's banworthy I guess)?
From my limited play, I actually don't think either is broken anymore, but I don't think I've played a competent player yet. I've personally been using both on Voltturn HO, and since Gene takes up my Altarianite, I can't use the best Zygarde set. Yes, you can use Pinsirite Gene, but who wants to give themselves the hideous Bug/Flying typing?
edit:
abstaining on both though, may change my mind later
Can people please post replays showcasing Genesect (and Deo-S if they think it's banworthy I guess)?
From my limited play, I actually don't think either is broken anymore, but I don't think I've played a competent player yet. I've personally been using both on Voltturn HO, and since Gene takes up my Altarianite, I can't use the best Zygarde set. Yes, you can use Pinsirite Gene, but who wants to give themselves the hideous Bug/Flying typing?
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Where are your reqs?
Yes, this is a good idea. Anybody have a couple replays? that'd be nice for a suspect folder.
So, Medichamite is labeled as a banned stone, but on the list of stones and there gains, it says that the Medichamite is allowed on the other mons with that ability. I made a team with Medichamite Diggersby, which is even on the viability ranking too, and it says that it can't hold Medichamite. Can someone clear this confusion for me and fix the first post if needed?
I believe the Mega Stone Changes image is outdated and the code doesn't allow crossing between Huge Power and Pure Power.
I just tried Diggersby with a Mawilite and it said I couldn't use that stone either. That really upsets me tbh
Went back to OP and realized that it is indeed the Image that is outdated
I'll edit the image in a minute and send it to GoS so it doesnt mislead anyone else
Just thought about this:
Volcarona @ Aggronite
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 1 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 SpD
- Roost
- Will-O-Wisp
- Bug Buzz
- HP Ground / U-Turn / Whirlwind
Volcarona becomes Bug/Steel, which makes 4x SR weakness to neutrality. Volca is now only weak to fire (although 4x), which isnt even problem as long as you pair it with something that has Blue Orb. Just above-average 85/65/105 bulk becomes 85/115/135, which is pretty titanic considering with such good typing it has. One could ask though that why would anyone use this over Scizor? Reason is simple: access to Will-O-Wisp. This, combined with steel typing and in general very high bulk makes it very potent check or even counter against Zygarde, since it resist ESpeed both without and with mega evolving, can burn it and stall it out. Heck, to make it further even more annoying against Zygarde, it has access to Whirlwind. It also has access to U-Turn making it also a solid pivot. With U-Turn it probs would run 0 Spe IV and Relaxed nature to allow safe switch in for ally poke.
Not sure how viable this actually would be but it seems to have nice niche potential. It had been really fun to use. I will add replays later, but not now.
Volcarona @ Aggronite
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 1 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 SpD
- Roost
- Will-O-Wisp
- Bug Buzz
- HP Ground / U-Turn / Whirlwind
Volcarona becomes Bug/Steel, which makes 4x SR weakness to neutrality. Volca is now only weak to fire (although 4x), which isnt even problem as long as you pair it with something that has Blue Orb. Just above-average 85/65/105 bulk becomes 85/115/135, which is pretty titanic considering with such good typing it has. One could ask though that why would anyone use this over Scizor? Reason is simple: access to Will-O-Wisp. This, combined with steel typing and in general very high bulk makes it very potent check or even counter against Zygarde, since it resist ESpeed both without and with mega evolving, can burn it and stall it out. Heck, to make it further even more annoying against Zygarde, it has access to Whirlwind. It also has access to U-Turn making it also a solid pivot. With U-Turn it probs would run 0 Spe IV and Relaxed nature to allow safe switch in for ally poke.
Not sure how viable this actually would be but it seems to have nice niche potential. It had been really fun to use. I will add replays later, but not now.
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Ask, and ye shall receive. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-429824087
Unfortunately, I did not save a replay of LaxLapras being very quickly swept by that same Genesect, but he can probably vouch for it being nuts, I think...
Anyways, I want to review some underutilized Pokémon while I'm here. I'll only start with a few this time.
Zoroark: I was pretty excited to use this in battle, and its potential did not disappoint me with an Absolite. Illusion only wears off as soon as you mega evolve, but that's enough time to fool the opponent and put them in a bad situation. Mixed offenses with the ability to both of them are great. Just keep him far away from Extreme Speed; Zoroark's incredibly frail.
Tornadus: My experience with a Salamancite set was incredibly disappointing. Return as a physical STAB does not make up for mediocre bulk and power, even after a Bulk Up. If you want to use him, though, Pidgeotite is the way to go. Focus Blast and Hurricane will both do some big damage....
Torterra: Actually, it's better than it seems, and surprised me with that. Aggronite turns Torterra into a more aggressive Ferrothorn. Synthesis is not the most reliable form of recovery, but it will suffice in most situations. The only other thing to really say about this is that it takes physical hits especially well, an might be able to run Venasaurite as another option to reduce its weaknesses of its base typing to more manageable levels.
Adding to this: Dusknoir. With Sablenite, it does get 2HKOed by unblocked to +2 (iirc) Pidgeotite Porygon-Z, which is impressive considering how PZ has base 200 Special Attack with Pidgeotite and how Dusknoir only has base 45 HP. Pain Splitting something really bulky like Blissey can really shit in the enemy's coffee too, because of Dusknoir's low HP ensuring that Pain Split can be somewhat reliable.
Genesect is undoubtedly is a top 5 mon in the meta atm, with Mixed Pinsirite Shift Gear probably being its best set that allows it to sweep pretty easily tbh. I will agree that it could be difficult to deal with to deal with after a even one Shift Gear boost. The main gripe I have with Genesect though that prevents it from being broken and too OP imo is that nasty x4 weakness that SR after the mega evolution that extremely limtits the amount of times it can swithcin and actually be able to pull off a boost and consecutively sweep. Hazards are more omnipresent than ever with Deoxys-S running around (which I will get to later...) and with my playtest playing and utilizing Genesect, this weakness coupled with the numerous other weaknesses it gains with that awful Bug/Flying weakness does not make it broken in my eyes. Incredibly strong, but not OP.
Im actually surprise people are not having a more negative feedback on this monster lol. I have been hearing countless mentions of its atespeed sets and offensive sets in general, and although those sets are pretty good, the real problem comes with its Ampharosite lead set. With Taunt, Deo-S can get at least a guaranteed 2 layers of hazards thanks to it gaining the incredible Dragon-typing giving it a ton of resistances and Mold Breaker just nullifying Magic Bounce entirely. This is so important as these hazards often benefit heavy hitters like Keldeo and Noivern, netting them crucial 2HKO's and sometimes OHKO's on switchins thanks to the incredible hazard support from Deo-S. To me there is very few counterplay from not letting Deo-S to not set up hazards besides atespeed, and this gives offense too much support in my eyes, leaving me to support banning Deoxys-S.
I also agree with Skarmory and Keldeo to A+ as they both influence the meta heavily.