Ladder Mix and Mega

Long post incoming

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Got them reqs (facing Speed Pass Mews at the beginning made me tilt and lose at the start dear lord...)

Unban Blazikenite

Ya Speed Boost is scary to face on powerful wallbreakers with other setup moves and I won't lie that it is difficult to stop after a couple of boots, however I believe the meta as a whole is capable of dealing with the likes of Blazkenite Landorus-T (I'm sorry, Lando-T is the best abuser of the stone since Intimidate pre-mega is a blessing) with the likes of -atespeed and faster more powerful threats making it quite difficult to actually let the Blazkenite abusers to start boosting right off the bat. It is a very good stone, but not that broken as others initially thought it would be.

Thoughts on the current noms:

A -> S: Agree Gengar is like the actual most feared threat I am scared of when I face it due to Pidgar being able to abuse Hypnosis shenanigans practically forcing me to have a sleep sac most of the time and Shadow Ball + Focus Blast pretty much hits everything in the meta super hard with it (Substitute is another great option that people need to use more too I feel). Yes -atespeed is a bitch to it and Sablenite Blissey walls it, but with Sub, Gengar can usually outlast these countermeasures pretty easily anyways. Mega Gengar is just broken but I will get to that later...
A+ -> A: Agree I honeslty don't really like Weavile all that much as it always falls a bit short when I face it and when I use it myself. It's best set atm to me is the PuP Scizorite set that can decently be really threatening after even just one attack boost, but the lack of Knock Off's great power really hampers Weavile's ability to break through certain walls like it could in standard play which means it is usually forced to switch out when faced againts a bulky mon. Its frail af too which means -ates just KO it pretty much all the time as well. Especially with Pdon everywhere, Weavile isn't that amazing atm.


I agree we should clear out the A-Ranks and here are my prepositions with a little note attached to each nom (or else my post will be too large lol):

A+ -> A: Faces a lot of competition with its two best stones in Red Orb and Pidgeotite. Meta is also really prepared for Fire types thanks to Pdon and Entei being everywhere.

A -> A+: one of the best SR setters and overall blanket checks to a bunch of things rn (especially -ates), also really good Raikou check pre-mega.

A -> A+: Nothing appreciates a Sun boosted Weather Ball from this thing besides Tran pre-mega and Blissey, and Ferrothorn. Also a great Fairy and Fire resist which is pretty important in this meta.

A -> A-: Is pretty outclassed by Landorus-T, Cobalion, Klinklang and Gyarados as a Pinsirite user. Doesn't have any other good sets besides -ate as well.

A -> A+: (if Blazikenite stays) Speed Boost + Swords Dance Lando-T is pretty much the most dangerous threat to face rn maybe besides DD Zygarde. Also its other sets are great as well and Intimidate pre-mega is soo good.

A- -> B+: Doesn't really appreciate all the Fire types running around even with the Dragon typing, can be really passive at times and not a reliable -ate check.

Also add Deo-S in A+ (think u forgot to add that in last slate)

Finally...



Suspect Gengarite

I never really liked the idea of this monster ever coming back in the meta and my initial hypothesis still holds true. Mega Gengar is pretty uncompetitive as its support is just too good for the meta to handle. It has the luxury of being able to customize its set to suit what ur team needs to trap and get rid of in order to allow them to sweep later on (a.k.a -ates + Mega Gar). The comparisons to Ubers don't really make sense to me as like Quantum Tesseract stated previously, this meta is more bulky compared to Ubers and Mega Gar could be runned with other extremely powerful mons in this case to further perpetuate its capabilities. Its pretty toxic for the meta and I feel it would be better off banned right now.

I'm done now ;)

Edit: I lied, this is the team I was running to get reqs since everybody is posting theirs:

Baton Pass Mew Sheningans

Deoxys-Speed @ Ampharosite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Thunderbolt

Mew @ Sablenite
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Iron Defense
- Swords Dance
- Soft-Boiled
- Baton Pass

Arcanine @ Pinsirite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Wild Charge
- Flare Blitz
- Close Combat

Terrakion @ Lucarionite
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Close Combat
- Earthquake
- Swords Dance

Blissey @ Slowbronite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Calm Mind
- Heal Bell
- Soft-Boiled

Zapdos @ Manectite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 176 Def / 68 SpD / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Defog
- Roost
- Toxic

Sample team worthy imo
Just a heads up dude the reqs were 78 Gxe not 76 so you don't have them on that alt.
 
Idk if the sample team thing is still going but w/e

Alright guys I made my peak goal of top 10.

Went with a record of 30 and 1 with this team before taking an L which dropped me a chunk. 11 of those wins and one of those losses were with a different team

Since I made my goal I am going to release to the masses the team that got me there for all of you to abuse.



Thundurus @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Thunder
- Focus Blast
- Substitute

Thundurus is an exceptionally strong mon in Mix and Mega and honestly deserves more usage than it gets currently. It acts as my main check for Gengar, Skarm-Bliss core breaker, sweeper and emergency check to Aerilatespeed sweepers. Prankster substitute almost always allows me a free mega evolve which allows me to outspeed mons like Keldeo and can give free turns to setup and sweep. Thunder is the main stab move which hits exceptionally hard when backed by base 190 SpA and no fear of missing thanks to No Guard. Focus Blast acts as the coverage for resists and Blissey breaker. It does the same damage or outdamages Hidden Power Ice against most targets bar certain mons like Giratina and Landorus-T. Finally Nasty Plot allows Thundurus to kill mons that would live at full and 2hko standard Sablenite Blissey with Focus Blast.



Cobalion @ Pinsirite
Ability: Justified
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Frustration
- Close Combat
- Quick Attack

Cobalion acts as the bulky setup sweeper of the team due to its 149 defense stat and steel typing after mega evolving which allows it to tank atespeeds and kill opposing atespeeders or outspeed them due to its high speed stat of 390. Justified can act as an immediate attack boost if you switch in on a dark type attack so Cobalion may not even have to use Swords Dance to have enough attack to sweep. Swords Dance mitigates Cobalion's low attack stat of 90 before and 120 after evolving and gives it the strength to sweep. Frustration is the main stab move and can force Ditto into close combating instead of Frustrating if it has 255 happiness. You can run Return and 255 happiness if you predict the opposing Ditto to have minimum happiness but you can't really predict that at all so it all comes down to personal preference. Close Combat acts as strong coverage that can break mons that would stop your sweep like Skarmory or pre-mega stab if you want to keep the fighting typing. Quick Attack gives the priority Cobalion needs to kill some faster mons or avoid speed ties against opponents like Keldeo.



Victini @ Red Orb
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- Bolt Strike
- U-turn
- Will-O-Wisp

Victini is a battering ram. For the majority of the time Victini will be dealing huge damage to defensive mons like Blissey with a sun boosted 180 base power stab attack coming off of a 130 base attack stat. Victini also acts as my main Keldeo switchin due to both of its stabs being resisted although I try to limit those switchins due to focus blast doing 38 to 44 percent thus 2hkoing Victini with Stealth Damage or with a small bit of prior damage. V-create is the big powerful stab that does tons of damage to everything including non defensive resists such as Entei which takes 56 to 66 percent after mega evolving. Just to give you another idea of how strong this move is with Red Orb Victini, max defense Slowbronite Blissey is ALWAYS 2hkod, taking 51 to 60 percent per hit. Remember, this is without any boosts such as Swords Dance or Nasty Plot. Bolt Strike allows Victini to hit water types and Blue Orb Skarmory for very strong damage. With Bolt Strike Victini can also break Slowbronite Suicune which it may also wall if Suicune is running mono water type attack. U-turn gives you momentum and gives Victini a way to get to safety while removing the stat drops given by V-create and preserve its HP which can be very important late game. Will-O-Wisp allows Victini to cripple physical attackers such as Zygarde which Victini cannot do much of anything to normally.


Lol the sky won't be that clear when Blue Orb Skarm comes in.


Skarmory (M) @ Blue Orb
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Impish Nature
- Roost
- Defog
- Iron Head
- Whirlwind

Skarmory is the team's main physical wall and atespeed check. Steel typing singlehandedly resists 2/3 ates and is neutral to the third while Skarmory's secondary flying typing gives it an immunity to ground attacks and makes fighting attacks neutral. Blue Orb gives Skarmory Primordial Sea which nullifies fire attacks. All of those things combined makes this the near perfect atespeed check. Roost is the consistent recovery which allows Skarmory to take repeated hits and to further its longevity. Defog is the hazard remover for times where Blissey wasn't able to block them. Iron head allows you to deal decent damage even when uninvested due to the +50 atk boost due to Blue Orb and can kill or at least severely damage some mons that could give you trouble like Terrakion. Whirlwind phazes out setup sweepers that could setup and kill you given time and makes your opponent take more hazard damage if rocks/spikes are up.



Blissey @ Sablenite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Soft-Boiled
- Stealth Rock
- Seismic Toss
- Heal Bell

Fat, fat, FAT. Seriously this thing is bulky. After Sablenite boosts it survives so many unboosted physical attacks, even some boosted attacks. Unboosted special attacks are the same story, even Pidgeotite Keldeo's Focus Blast can't 2hko. It's an 11.2% chance but that's barely better than an Ancient Power boost chance. Stab fighting type attacks are the exception since the majority of them are physical. So just keep this thing away from lots of boosts and stab fighting type attacks and you will be fine. Natural Cure can act as a free Heal Bell without using crucial pp but usually you will evolve immediately overwriting it with Magic Bounce. Speaking of Magic Bounce, that ability allows Blissey to not be statused except for things like Toxic Spikes, Mold Breaker users, or random secondary effects. It also bounces back hazards thus removing the need for a defog, except for ones set up by Mold Breaker users. Stealth Rock is a necessity for almost all teams and can be reliably set up by Blissey due to its sheer bulk and switches it causes due to that bulk. Heal Bell removes status from Blissey if it somehow got statused and heals your other mons if they have been statused. Blissey and Skarmory have been a known fat core for years and it is no different here in Mix and Mega.



Ditto @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def
- Transform
-

As you noticed in the Blissey section I mentioned setup sweepers a lot and why you need to avoid them. Well maybe you won't have to depending on the situation. Ditto works in Mix and Mega as it does in all other tiers and metas that it is in; It takes your opponent's mon and uses it against them, only faster. With the huge power scale of Mix and Mega it is a lot easier for Ditto to countersweep the opponent, especially if the opponent has boosts. Ditto can usually remove the threat of an opposing mon setting up and breaking the fatcore because of that. That's basically all there is to it. Oh, those IVs give it Hidden Power Ice which is better than Hidden Power Dark most of the time and can net you a surprise kill every once in a while.

The team is not without its flaws unfortunately. Ditto must be kept alive and hopefully healthy otherwise setup sweepers like SD Blazikenite Lando-T will run you through. One of the two losses was due to sending out my Ditto vs a Gengar that was basically Imposterproof and then getting rekt by a bunch of setup sweepers. Be careful around opposing mons that you do not know what mega and set it has. Because one false switch or move and you lost one of your key mons for the battle. I know because the other loss that I took with this team was against a lower ranked player that used unorthodox sets and megas which took out mons that I needed to break his cores. Opposing Dittos will also be something to be careful around due to two of your offensive mons running setup moves and Victini just being a truck.

But as it has been proven, this team is no joke and is very effective. Enjoy using it! Maybe I'll end up facing it as I try to make it back into the top 10.

Shoutouts are here since formatting is trash.


Against NidoTheKing. A very good battle against a strong opponent. This battle showcases how difficult it is to break the SkarmBliss fatcore, especially with Ditto and Whirlwind Skarmory keeping setup Excadrill at bay.
Against DragonMasterCody.
We had faced each other with these teams just a few minutes before so we knew what to expect thus leading to a much closer battle. Substitute Thundurus and Skarmory's sheer bulk shine in this close conflict.
Against Bpscrub.
This is the battle in which I was handed my first L against a standard team. Misuse of Ditto cost me this game and sent me out of top 10.

I won the scheduled Sunday OMotM room tour with the team!


You can find the importable here!

*Edit. Added replays/accomplishments and put importable in a Pastebin.
 
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I can get behind an MGeng test. Being able to remove Blue Orb steels, so deadly sweepers like -atespeed Zygarde and Entei can sweep, is pretty broken tbh. It's not like it has the opportunity cost it has in Ubers. thesecondbest's replay showed this pretty clearly, with Mega Gengar trapping and removing both Blissey and Skarm, opening the way for Arceus to sweep lategame.

No thoughts on Baton Pass.
 
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Vote: Unban

Even if Blazikenite seems a bit... overpowered, I assure you it is not. Not everymon gains from blazikenite, and those who gains anything good, are either weak to -Atespeed or hardly they do too much damage without setting up (see Excadrill), and setting up in this meta is very difficult due to the overwhelming power that each stone gives to the mons, or they have the "i have too many needed moves to be broken" ill (play Excadrill without Protect, SD, EQ, Rock Slide or Iron Head i dare you)
And in a meta where exists Pidgeotite Gengar I don't see why there shouldn't be blazikenite around

PS. I, like, did better with teams with Blazikenite than those without
 

GL Volkner

see me rise, sky may fall
is a Tiering Contributor

Hello, I'm salty.

Anyways - I haven't seen a Blazikenite user, but I feel like the ability Speed Boost can be dangerous when you use it right. An argument could be made that Blazikenite users can be easily handled by priority, but IT11's example of Metagross was spot on. Although 90 isn't a great starting speed, Speed Boost easily patches that up after a single turn, giving Jolly Blazikenite Metagross with full investment a stellar speed of 489 (non-Jolly with full investment would be a speed of 418.5, which is still a pretty amazing speed to have.) At that point, you're gonna have to run some form of priority to damage Metagross. The thing is that Metagross resists all 4 types of ExtremeSpeed (assuming that people will use Normal ExtremeSpeed which I haven't seen and hope that I never see) which is the most powerful priority in the tier. In addition, Metagross has bulk which is something that most other Blazikenite users don't have. I'm gonna prove that it has bulk in the following sentences. The Mega Stone that gives the most Attack is Mewtwonite X, which I will be using in this calculation. The Pokemon with the highest attack that can use STAB Sucker Punch and Mega Evolve (legally) is Absol. Mewtwonite X Absol gains a base Attack stat of 210. Adamant Absol with full investment in Attack will reach an Attack stat of 570. Wow, right? Okay, but Metagross has Bullet Punch and better speed. Assuming that Sucker Punch somehow hits (It won't by the way lol), it OHKOs barely.
252+ Atk Absol Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Metagross: 308-366 (102.3 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This is a testament to how overpowered Metagross is. In addition, you're not even sure if the Metagross will carry priority or not, so you can't be sure if it's safe to use Sucker Punch. I'm just rambling at this point, so I'll stop writing. Tl;Dr would be ban Blazikenite, as I feel like it's too overpowered and forces you to run some really weird stuff to have a guaranteed counter (like Mewtwonite X Absol). Also, you should probably update this link with Gengarite being LIM instead of BAN so that new users who use this sheet aren't misled.
 
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Hello, I'm salty.

Anyways - I haven't seen a Blazikenite user, but I feel like the ability Speed Boost can be dangerous when you use it right. An argument could be made that Blazikenite users can be easily handled by priority, but IT11's example of Metagross was spot on. Although 90 isn't a great starting speed, Speed Boost easily patches that up after a single turn, giving Jolly Blazikenite Metagross with full investment a stellar speed of 489 (non-Jolly with full investment would be a speed of 418.5, which is still a pretty amazing speed to have.) At that point, you're gonna have to run some form of priority to damage Metagross. The thing is that Metagross resists all 4 types of ExtremeSpeed (assuming that people will use Normal ExtremeSpeed which I haven't seen and hope that I never see) which is the most powerful priority in the tier. In addition, Metagross has bulk which is something that most other Blazikenite users don't have. I'm gonna prove that it has bulk in the following sentences. The Mega Stone that gives the most Attack is Mewtwonite X, which I will be using in this calculation. The Pokemon with the highest attack that can use STAB Sucker Punch and Mega Evolve (legally) is Absol. Mewtwonite X Absol gains a base Attack stat of 210. Adamant Absol with full investment in Attack will reach an Attack stat of 570. Wow, right? Okay, but Metagross has Bullet Punch and better speed. Assuming that Sucker Punch somehow hits (It won't by the way lol), it OHKOs barely.
252+ Atk Absol Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Metagross: 308-366 (102.3 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This is a testament to how overpowered Metagross is. In addition, you're not even sure if the Metagross will carry priority or not, so you can't be sure if it's safe to use Sucker Punch. I'm just rambling at this point, so I'll stop writing. Tl;Dr would be ban Blazikenite, as I feel like it's too overpowered and forces you to run some really weird stuff to have a guaranteed counter (like Mewtwonite X Absol).
Is there a reason to use Absol over say, Bisharp which has a resistance to steel so no bullet bunch for you, Mega Evolving legally doesn't matter in a meta where all pokemon can mega evolve.

252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross: 306-360 (101.6 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Whether it barely OHKOes or not, Metagross is still OHKOed, and I know that was a test to show how tanky Metagross is even with blazikenite, but there is also something you forgot to note, Even if Metagross tanks all typed E-Speeds, All who would use E-Speed have a way to deal with it.

Metagross [Blazikenite] Earthquake vs. Entei [Pinsirite]: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time
Jokes Aside, You ain't 2HKOing him anyway with Bullet Punch Or Meteor Mash.
252+ Atk Entei [Pinsirite] Sacred Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross [Blazikenite]: 290-344 (96.3 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

-1 252+ Atk Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Arcanine: 135-159 (42 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 252+ Atk Metagross Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Arcanine: 200-236 (62.3 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Arcanine [Altarianite] Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross: 421-499 (139.8 - 165.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
If you do not get Intimidated, then you either switched Metagross in giving Arcanine a chance to attack, or something just died and you are trying to Revenge kill it, which means Arcanine outspeeds

252+ Atk Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde [Altarianite]: 302-356 (84.3 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Zygarde Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross: 190-224 (63.1 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Pixilate Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross: 73-87 (24.2 - 28.9%) -- 99.1% chance to 4HKO
E-Speed OP

So yeah, The E-Speeders that you choose Metagross to counter beat you using coverage anyway.
 
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Definitely voting to unban Blazikenite. While it's pretty powerful, very few pokemon can actually use it effectively AND still avoid being rk'd by extremespeed. Mons like landorus-T and Excadrill are good users, but both require setup to break walls, and still have some things like skarmory which are always hard counters (barring multiple rock slide flinches). Plus, a lot of potential users are strapped for moveslots. They need SD to beat all the bulky walls, STABs, protect, 1-2 coverage move at the minimum. There's no way to account for everything you need to sweep in one moveset for most pokes. Certain pokemon like Metagross are pretty good users as far as cleaning up teams, but lack raw power and have no reliable way to boost past checks & counters.

Overall there's way more broken stuff going on and I don't see any good reason not to allow Blazikenite.

UNBAN
 

GL Volkner

see me rise, sky may fall
is a Tiering Contributor
Is there a reason to use Absol over say, Bisharp which has a resistance to steel so no bullet bunch for you, Mega Evolving legally doesn't matter in a meta where all pokemon can mega evolve.

252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross: 306-360 (101.6 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Whether it barely OHKOes or not, Metagross is still OHKOed, and I know that was a test to show how tanky Metagross is even with blazikenite, but there is also something you forgot to note, Even if Metagross tanks all typed E-Speeds, All who would use E-Speed have a way to deal with it.

Metagross [Blazikenite] Earthquake vs. Entei [Pinsirite]: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time
Jokes Aside, You ain't 2HKOing him anyway with Bullet Punch Or Meteor Mash.
252+ Atk Entei [Pinsirite] Sacred Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross [Blazikenite]: 290-344 (96.3 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

-1 252+ Atk Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Arcanine: 135-159 (42 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 252+ Atk Metagross Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Arcanine: 200-236 (62.3 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Arcanine [Altarianite] Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross: 421-499 (139.8 - 165.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
If you do not get Intimidated, then you either switched Metagross in giving Arcanine a chance to attack, or something just died and you are trying to Revenge kill it, which means Arcanine outspeeds

252+ Atk Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde [Altarianite]: 302-356 (84.3 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Zygarde Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross: 190-224 (63.1 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Pixilate Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross: 73-87 (24.2 - 28.9%) -- 99.1% chance to 4HKO
E-Speed OP

So yeah, The E-Speeders that you choose Metagross to counter beat you using coverage anyway.
Yeah, Metagross is OHKOed, but keep in mind that anything less will mean that you're not achieving that one-shot (see below.) This is the most damage you're gonna get from a Sucker Punch. Using Mewtwonite X on Bisharp still guarantees a one-shot, but the reason I used Mewtwonite X Absol was to demonstrate that you'd have to run Mewtwonite X for it to be a guaranteed OHKO (and also to demonstrate that you could easily avoid a guaranteed OHKO by investing more in defence.) Also - Regarding the "Mega Evolving legally" thing, I meant that Absol was the Pokemon with the highest attack that could hold a Mega Stone in M&M and that had STAB Sucker Punch.
252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross: 306-360 (101.6 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
The thing is that if you're hitting Metagross with a Sucker Punch from any other Mega Stone (second best Attack boost is by 60 IIRC), it isn't a guaranteed OHKO. Meanwhile, Metagross can easily carry Hammer Arm/Earthquake (and that's something I'd run, personally) and one-shot Bisharp, regardless of the +60 attack boost stone you're running.
252+ Atk Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bisharp (Heracronite): 436-516 (160.8 - 190.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bisharp (Lopunnite): 270-318 (99.6 - 117.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
Those are the only two stones I'll be calculating with since I'm lazy. Your point about atespeed users carrying coverage is definitely valid, but I feel like not many people run Pinsirite Entei. It has a 4x weakness to Rocks, and I feel as though a lot of people forget hazard removal is a thing. If people do run that, then rip my EQ. Altarianite Entei is more common in my experience, though, but Altarianite Entei still tanks. I suppose I overhyped the bulk, a bit, although I still feel like Metagross is a little too overpowered for this metagame. I guess I'd like Baton Pass Clause to be implemented, if Blazikenite isn't banned - It'd be too easy to Baton Pass a Swords Dance onto the Metagross and start sweeping.
 
Yeah, Metagross is OHKOed, but keep in mind that anything less will mean that you're not achieving that one-shot (see below.) This is the most damage you're gonna get from a Sucker Punch. Using Mewtwonite X on Bisharp still guarantees a one-shot, but the reason I used Mewtwonite X Absol was to demonstrate that you'd have to run Mewtwonite X for it to be a guaranteed OHKO (and also to demonstrate that you could easily avoid a guaranteed OHKO by investing more in defence.) Also - Regarding the "Mega Evolving legally" thing, I meant that Absol was the Pokemon with the highest attack that could hold a Mega Stone in M&M and that had STAB Sucker Punch.
252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross: 306-360 (101.6 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
The thing is that if you're hitting Metagross with a Sucker Punch from any other Mega Stone (second best Attack boost is by 60 IIRC), it isn't a guaranteed OHKO. Meanwhile, Metagross can easily carry Hammer Arm/Earthquake (and that's something I'd run, personally) and one-shot Bisharp, regardless of the +60 attack boost stone you're running.
252+ Atk Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bisharp (Heracronite): 436-516 (160.8 - 190.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bisharp (Lopunnite): 270-318 (99.6 - 117.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
Those are the only two stones I'll be calculating with since I'm lazy. Your point about atespeed users carrying coverage is definitely valid, but I feel like not many people run Pinsirite Entei. It has a 4x weakness to Rocks, and I feel as though a lot of people forget hazard removal is a thing. If people do run that, then rip my EQ. Altarianite Entei is more common in my experience, though, but Altarianite Entei still tanks. I suppose I overhyped the bulk, a bit, although I still feel like Metagross is a little too overpowered for this metagame. I guess I'd like Baton Pass Clause to be implemented, if Blazikenite isn't banned - It'd be too easy to Baton Pass a Swords Dance onto the Metagross and start sweeping.
That is taking in mind bare attack, but there is also abilities which can work EVEN better than Mewtwonite-X for multiple reasons, but I decided to use your example, Like what you ask?

252 Atk Tough Claws Bisharp Sucker Punch [Aerodactylite] vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross [Blazikenite]: 288-342 (95.6 - 113.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock -Also OHKOes with Adamant]
252+ Atk Tough Claws Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross: 288-338 (95.6 - 112.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock


And as for using Hammer Arm.. It drops your speed, Rendering speed boost useless, and if that is the case, then just use another mega stone.

252+ Atk Metagross [Blazikenite] Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bisharp [Aerodactylite/Metagrossite]: 256-302 (94.4 - 111.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
Doesn't matter since sucker punch would OHKO anyway


And the reason I used Pinsirite Entei was not because I use it/think it is better than Altarianite, It is just to show that even that set can defend itself, and to show that the -Atespeed that counter Metagross aren't only are Pixi-speed
 

GL Volkner

see me rise, sky may fall
is a Tiering Contributor
That is taking in mind bare attack, but there is also abilities which can work EVEN better than Mewtwonite-X for multiple reasons, but I decided to use your example, Like what you ask?

252 Atk Tough Claws Bisharp Sucker Punch [Aerodactylite] vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross [Blazikenite]: 288-342 (95.6 - 113.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock -Also OHKOes with Adamant]
252+ Atk Tough Claws Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross: 288-338 (95.6 - 112.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock


And as for using Hammer Arm.. It drops your speed, Rendering speed boost useless, and if that is the case, then just use another mega stone.

252+ Atk Metagross [Blazikenite] Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bisharp [Aerodactylite/Metagrossite]: 256-302 (94.4 - 111.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
Doesn't matter since sucker punch would OHKO anyway


And the reason I used Pinsirite Entei was not because I use it/think it is better than Altarianite, It is just to show that even that set can defend itself, and to show that the -Atespeed that counter Metagross aren't only are Pixi-speed
Never really thought about Aerodactylite/Lucarionite, seems pretty cool. I'll be sure to reconsider the EV Spread I use on Metagross, then. While Hammer Arm drops my Speed, Speed Boost picks it back up, and unless I have no other option than spamming Hammer Arm on the opponent's team, I'd take care to avoid keeping my speed unboosted. Also, regarding your calculation - I personally would've used Hammer Arm, but meh.Don't think I said that Pixispeed is the only thing that counters Metagross, but awkward if I did. I'd definitely be caught off guard by Pinsirite Entei and I really wouldn't have a way of dealing with it on my current Metagross set, since it consists of Bullet Punch/Meteor Mash/Hammer Arm/Earthquake. Gonna see about revising that moveset soon, though, since it's the result of me picking 4 moves that looked nice and then mashing them up together.
 
The last few posts is why Hone Claws and Zen Headbutt are fantastic options on Metagross, for anyone wondering. Metagross has the bulk to boost in the face of a LOT of Pokemon.

EDIT: Without Hammer Arm, Latiasite Heatran walls you cold. With it, +1 Hammer Arm will almost always OHKO after Rocks if they only invest in HP. Combine that with Heatran's complete dearth of Recovery and it's probably the best option you have against opposing Steel-types.
 
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While Hammer Arm drops my Speed, Speed Boost picks it back up, and unless I have no other option than spamming Hammer Arm on the opponent's team, I'd take care to avoid keeping my speed unboosted.
TBH I find Earthquake much better due to having a better coverage [MnM Wise at least] and it doesn't have any drawbacks of using it unlike Hammer Arm.

Don't think I said that Pixispeed is the only thing that counters Metagross, but awkward if I did. I'd definitely be caught off guard by Pinsirite Entei
You didn't say that, but I just wanted to note Pinsirite, and how it also counters metagross as good as Altarianite does.
and I really wouldn't have a way of dealing with it on my current Metagross set, since it consists of Bullet Punch/Meteor Mash/Hammer Arm/Earthquake. Gonna see about revising that moveset soon, though, since it's the result of me picking 4 moves that looked nice and then mashing them up together.
Try Something like Meteor Mash/Zen Headbutt/EQ/ [Ice Punch/Thunder Punch/Pursuit/Hone Claws/Hammer Arm I guess..]
 

GL Volkner

see me rise, sky may fall
is a Tiering Contributor
TBH I find Earthquake much better due to having a better coverage [MnM Wise at least] and it doesn't have any drawbacks of using it unlike Hammer Arm.


You didn't say that, but I just wanted to note Pinsirite, and how it also counters metagross as good as Altarianite does.

Try Something like Meteor Mash/Zen Headbutt/EQ/ [Ice Punch/Thunder Punch/Pursuit/Hone Claws/Hammer Arm I guess..]
I'll definitely try that, thanks for the advice. I didn't know if I wanted ZenButt on my Metagross (for whatever reason.) Might put Hone Claws on my Metagross just to make sure Meteor Mash's accuracy doesn't screw me over, since knowing my luck it'll miss until I only have one use left, haha.
 
this just in: I forgot about charzardite x. charzardite x absol sucker punch does more damage than lucarionite absol sucker punch by a tiny amount, but still some.
 
Since I am still hopeless regarding screen captures, have some text again. I DID remember the name this time.
Rank: 159
Name: HeatDragonscales
Elo: 1486
GXE: 83.2%
Win/Loss: 24-1


Exactly 25 games, and it's clear that the requirements were more than met.... So I'll be revealing the team that I used, as well.
Excalibur (Rayquaza) @ Expert Belt
Ability: Air Lock
EVs: 204 HP / 4 Atk / 212 SpA / 88 Spe
Mild Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Surf
- Extreme Speed

Balmung (Groudon-Primal) @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 252 HP / 180 Atk / 76 Def
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Bulk Up
- Fire Punch
- Stone Edge

Mercreius (Kyogre-Primal) @ Blue Orb
Ability: Primordial Sea
EVs: 252 HP / 180 SpA / 76 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Origin Pulse
- Calm Mind
- Thunder
- Ice Beam

Lyndis (Sceptile) (F) @ Pinsirite
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Return
- Leaf Blade
- Swords Dance
- Drain Punch

Hector (Cobalion) @ Blazikenite
Ability: Justified
EVs: 92 HP / 160 Atk / 132 Def / 124 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Sacred Sword
- Stone Edge
- Iron Head

Gotoh (Latios) @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Draco Meteor
- Defog
- Roost

This team is incredibly offensive, and incredibly fast. You basically have 4 win conditions here: Kyogre, Cobalion, Groudon, and Sceptile.
Rayquaza is here due to the realization that severe weather doesn't work around Air Lock. Rayquaza can abuse that fact heavily, not caring about either Desolate Land or Primordial Sea. It also takes some Ground attacks aimed at Groudon, in a pinch.
Groudon is the team's primary -ate check, and is incredibly difficult to remove via physical attacks, especially when it gets set up. Blue Orb Skarmory's only good option is to phase it out quickly.
Kyogre is the Special counterpart to Groudon, and takes special hits just as well. The multiple Latios variants can't take Primal Kyogre out fast enough, and the only ones that have a shot are Electric types, which Groudon and Latios cover. Even Blissey is not fat enough to take boosted Origin Pulses very well. By the way, if you're worried about a Ditto, this is what you should lure it in with. Ditto is forced into a Morton's fork: take the Kyogre out, and get hopelessly walled by the Groudon, or lose to the Kyogre.
Sceptile is really here to fulfill the team gimmick well, but also is a good attacker in its own right, and is the main out to an early Gengar. Swords Dance makes those Returns sting, too.
Cobalion is absolutely incredible with the Blazikenite. You Swords Dance on something that can't touch you, (praying you hit the Stone Edge) and then take down as much of the enemy you can. I use Sacred Sword over Close Combat because I hate the drops in a meta littered with Extreme Speed.
Latios is there as offensive Defog support, and also takes on Thundurus really well. Psychic is there as an attack to use when you don't want to drop a Draco Meteor.




Okay... with all that out of the way, my opinions on Blazikenite. I used to think it was not too powerful, but now... I think there might be a solid case against it. On one hand, it takes a turn to set up such a mon, in which the opponent can easily ruin you. On the other, new people can easily waste a turn... or three. After my experience with Cobalion, I believe he's the most powerful Blazikenite user of them all. Even more so than Landorus. With all of this in mind, I will vote to Ban Blazikenite.... but I would be interested in another suspect for this either way. There may be more incredibly powerful users waiting in the wings....
 

Imperator Romanum

formerly Grains of Salt
Voting is now over

Verdict will be published tomorrow

For now I'd love a discussion on revamping the A-S ranks. Personally I'd only put Primal Groudon Gengar. Primal Groudon hasn't changed at all, it's very good at adapting to the metagame changes.
Gengar now has a new stone that's almost S worthy in and of itself, with Pidgeot as well it's definitely S worthy. If I were to pick a third one I'd be either Lando, Coba or Thundurus.

In A+ I'd put Mew, Hoopa, Thundurus, Keldeo, Cobalion, Landorus-Therian, Zygarde, Entei, Skarmory... And that's about it. It's way to big right now and a lot of the other pokemon compete to heavily or just aren't competitive enough. boo!

Regarding Mew, I'm definitely not sold on this. Sablenite is the best and only really relevant set in my mind. I think SD is great but I'm just reluctant to move it up purely based on such a iffy strategy. And don't tell me that these other sets, like Absolite n shit are good. They're not, I know this metagame like the back of my hand and Mew isn't the best user of those sets - c'mon now.

A ton of shit shouldn't even be ranked if I'm being honest, this isn't ubers so we're not forced to rank them.

Can't use a stone now, bad.
Use Deoxys-A for offensive set, Mew does stallbreaker better. Alakazam is also better
This was used purely to check Lucario
This was used purely to check Manaphy. It's a bad Keldeo check because both Pidgeot and Lucario 2hko after rocks after a cm, it doesn't do much back either way.
Use Meloetta. This is otherwise pretty much irrelevant.
I've literally never seen this on a serious team
See Togekiss
Baton pass clause
Irrelevant
Is this good? I haven't seen it at all.
This should never have been ranked in the first place
Use this if you want to get taken advantage of by Pdon or blissey.
Highlord do you have an argument for this staying? I've seen you use it before
Really bad, never seen it either. Defogging and bouncing isn't hard in this metagame.
Just a shitty victini, right?
Origins form is better
Use Sky form
Mew is bulkier, faster and with a better move pool. You dont need to use this.
 
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Grains of Salt what makes Meloetta better than Porygon-Z other than its higher Sp.Def and HP, if I may ask? Porygon-Z is more of a Hit-and-Runner with a wider movepool, Download(!!), and higher Sp.Atk base, while Meloetta would prefer a Calm Mind boosting set (probably behind a sub) with Absolite attached.
 

Imperator Romanum

formerly Grains of Salt
how is the shaymin comment even valid, sky can't use stones
You're right, they don't compete. Shaymin isn't relevant imo simply because it's a bad pokemon with a pretty mediocre typing. I'd much rather use Shaymin sky because serence grace is a pretty good ability to be honest. But yeah, fair. Still don't think it should be ranked.

Grains of Salt what makes Meloetta better than Porygon-Z other than its higher Sp.Def and HP, if I may ask? Porygon-Z is more of a Hit-and-Runner with a wider movepool, Download(!!), and higher Sp.Atk base, while Meloetta would prefer a Calm Mind boosting set (probably behind a sub) with Absolite attached.
Psychic + Normal is a pretty neat typing too be honest that compliment each other better than pure normal. Other than that Porygon-Z is pretty bad... just... like in general. It's a normal pokemon with paper defences and it's pretty slow. In standard tier Adaptability was great for it, but it doesn't have that here does it. It definitely shouldn't be ranked as high as it is though.

also disregard my gourgeist nom - it should drop to C but shouldn't be ranked since it beats coba and terrakion. good night guys!
 
Voting is now over

Verdict will be published tomorrow

For now I'd love a discussion on revamping the A-S ranks. Personally I'd only put Primal Groudon Gengar. Primal Groudon hasn't changed at all, it's very good at adapting to the metagame changes.
Gengar now has a new stone that's almost S worthy in and of itself, with Pidgeot as well it's definitely S worthy. If I were to pick a third one I'd be either Lando, Coba or Thundurus.

In A+ I'd put Mew, Hoopa, Thundurus, Keldeo, Cobalion, Landorus-Therian, Zygarde, Entei, Skarmory... And that's about it. It's way to big right now and a lot of the other pokemon compete to heavily or just aren't competitive enough. boo!

Regarding Mew, I'm definitely not sold on this. Sablenite is the best and only really relevant set in my mind. I think SD is great but I'm just reluctant to move it up purely based on such a iffy strategy. And don't tell me that these other sets, like Absolite n shit are good. They're not, I know this metagame like the back of my hand and Mew isn't the best user of those sets - c'mon now.

A ton of shit shouldn't even be ranked if I'm being honest, this isn't ubers so we're not forced to rank them.
I'd really like to argue that Zygarde should stay- its clearly better than all the rest of A+ bar Mew. This might be a case of Torn-T/Latios in OU (actually almost literally lol), but it's just too reliable, splashable, and dangerous for me to be for it dropping.
On Gengar, on reflection I withdraw my earlier argument against it. It's absolutely cancerous, particularly when paired with Red Orb Raikou or Thundurus (Others to an extent, but nowhere near as much). Pidgeotite is still as amazing as ever, it revenges Pixispeed, has just about no answers it cant circumvent (Blissey? Sludge Bomb or perish trap. Pinsirite? Sleep or OHKO on the switch. Weavile/Hoopa-U? Super frail, their first moves (protect/fake out) are practically free switches. Meloetta... actually, nevermind, it can't beat Meloetta, but that alone should show how ridiculous. It's gotten to the point that Absolite Keldeo is becoming usable over its other sets.)
Agree on A+ rank otherwise.

Thank you so much. I've been waiting for that forever :)
Can't use a stone now, bad.
Use Deoxys-A for offensive set, Mew does stallbreaker better. Alakazam is also better
This was used purely to check Lucario
This was used purely to check Manaphy. It's a bad Keldeo check because both Pidgeot and Lucario 2hko after rocks after a cm, it doesn't do much back either way.
Use Meloetta. This is otherwise pretty much irrelevant.
I've literally never seen this on a serious team
See Togekiss
Baton pass clause
Irrelevant
Is this good? I haven't seen it at all.
This should never have been ranked in the first place
Use this if you want to get taken advantage of by Pdon or blissey.
Highlord do you have an argument for this staying? I've seen you use it before
Really bad, never seen it either. Defogging and bouncing isn't hard in this metagame.
Just a shitty victini, right?
Origins form is better
Use Sky form
Mew is bulkier, faster and with a better move pool. You dont need to use this.
Completely agree with all of these bar Zekrom, Shaymin, Mewtwo and Togekiss. Zekrom answers Ho-Oh, Pidgega to an extent, Lugia, Waterceus, Aerilate, Skarmory (as a physical attacker!), Tornadus, Archeops, Hoopa-U, Gyarados, Suicune, Kyurem...
Shaymin, meanwhile, is a pidgeotite mon that can beat blissey by virtue of the incredible seed flare. Low ranked to be sure, but with a definite and major niche. Also its stronger/Bulkier than the others.
Togekiss: Actually handles Keld and has reovery, which... literally nothing better does. the only other possibilities are red orb ghosts (stop PDon/Victini/Hippo from using them as well, gain nothing unless ghorgeist, and are still weak to rocks) or shit like Jellicent. Otherwise, you cant switch in until you mega evolve mew, which is super exploitable.
Mewtwo: Outspeed Pidggar, can come in on sleep, can actually take hits, great coverage, has just about zero opportunity cost in stones/type, and beats Blissey. Lower it, though

As far as myself and my noms:
Unrank Alakazam. It's literal Garbage
Remove Darkrai. How is thi sbetter than Gengar/Hoopa-u, again?
Mandibuzz. Having walls that lose to -ate is an actual joke, especially since it requires wasting sablenite on a mon that dies to Raikou, Thundy, Keldeo, Weavile...



Finally, is there anyone here who has an actual argument as to why we shouldn't get rip of BP, or some kind of counterplay? At this point I cant even run it because its actually not fun to win (requires literally 0 skill), and when playing against it can set up on Swords Dance Landorus-T. You get lucky with Crits, have Gengar out, run mold breaker Taunt, run Hoopa, or lose. Thats it, no other options. Grains of Salt if you need more replays I can go out and get some, but I think there has already been sufficient evidence.
 

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