Ladder Mix and Mega



I Abstain from voting on the Gengarite suspect.
All in all I don't really have a strong opinion on it. I'd say it's manageable since it takes one turn to mega evolve before shadow tag activates and it's not the hardest thing in the world to check or counter. It's not the kind of mon you can just slap on any team and expect to reliably take out the opponents' top threat all of the time. On the other hand, its use is fairly uncompetitive and difficult to prep for if you're running a less offensive team. I have to agree with all of the points people made on this one, both in favour of and against the ban.

I Abstain from voting on the Baton pass suspect.
I have no doubt baton pass teams are effective, but I think that's partially because the meta isn't really prepared for it yet. From my experience, there are several ways to deal with a baton passing mew, such as Hoopa-u to one shot Mew, Dragon tail on pdon to phase or a random Ditto.
At least that's what I was thinking before I read Quantum Tessaract's post and now I'm on the fence.

Once again I'm just here to show off my reqs. You guys are free to convince me of something though.
Getting reqs this time was way too easy, as nearly all opponents were low ladder teams that got 6-0'd by Entei.
It feels like the low ladder range is getting bigger every suspect.
 
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While playing multiple games at once I got reqs but then lost the other game shortly after getting them so my alt doesn't have 78 gxe atm but it did for like a minute. If I need to keep the alt at 78 gxe then I can do that just let me know.

Baton pass is a simple strategy. You begin by setting up hazards thus weakening the opposing team and breaking any random sash or sturdy mons. Then you weaken the opposing team to the point where you can sweep them with one of your sweepers or you can setup easily and then sweep. Sometimes you will not need to pass boosts because some of your sweepers may not need them versus the opposing team or they can setup on their own and do it easier or better without having to pass boosts depending on the situation. Especially when baton pass is coupled with atespeed it becomes very easy to sweep the opponent due to the fact that you cannot be outsped and the checks to a boosted atespeed mon are very limited. Normally a mon like Skarmory would be able to take on an Arcanine and not be 2hkod by an unboosted wild charge and then whirlwind it out. Arcanine would have to use howl at some point in order to 2hko it, which is very difficult due to its typing and low bulk. But with boosts passed to it, it can kill Skarmory or at least force it to whirlwind it out and leave it at a low amonut of hp thus making a sweep later on in the match much easier. It is a very simple strategy that works so well due to the bulk of sablenite mew and due to the fact that your opponent is forced to run specific checks to beat it that either limit teambuilding or are dead weight against other strategies. With this strategy you are also able to win many games without having to predict or think about the matchup at all. Thus allowing for a player to play multiple games at once on the ladder and get a very high score within a short amount of time with very minimal effort at all. For how easy it is to use and how well it performs it is too much to be kept unbanned.

Ban Baton Pass.


Gengarite is a very interesting issue. The amount of pressure that it exerts on balance and stall is ridiculous. Mega Gengar has an incredible ability in Shadow Tag which eliminates a crucial element to more defensive builds in switching. That ability combined with its many different sets either completely eliminate or annoy the heck out of a lot of teams. Most of the time it will be using Perish Song for Blissey and other slower threats if it can get up a Perish Song without dying due to Protect and Substitute. But it can also use Thunder to kill Skarmory and some offensive mons like Pidgeotite Keldeo without having to take it down with Destiny Bond. Speaking of Destiny Bond, that move coupled with its really good speed stat of 130 allows it to be an annoyance to offense thus not making it completely dead weight against less passive teams. One of the things that makes Mega Gengar stronger in Mix and Mega than in Ubers is that the opportunity cost in using it is much lower since it doesn't take up the one mega that you can have on your team. Another thing that makes this mega so dangerous is that Gengar could be running a different stone such as Pidgeotite. With that stone Gengar is a much bigger threat vs offense due to its high speed, special attack, and ability in No Guard which allows for always hitting Hypnosis' and Focus Blasts. When you face a Gengar you have to play very carefully with your mons, because while one may beat one stone and set such as Sablenite Blissey being able to pp stall Pidgeotite Gengar and bouncing back Hypnosis, it loses immediately to any Perish Song Mega Gengar unless it runs something like Shadow Ball or Skill Swap which takes up a valuable move slot. Overall the amount that Gengarite can do and the mindgames it forces on your opponent is just too much for it to stay.

Ban Gengarite.
 
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GL Volkner

eyes on fire
is a Tiering Contributor
Okay, can I just take this moment to say that I hate my luck?

77.9% GXE. I could've saved a game, but no. It had to be one decimal point short. Anyways, I got my reqs shortly after (And I got it 3 decimal points above this time, so ha. Don't ask me why it's blue instead of black, I have no idea.)

Ban Baton Pass.
One of my main bones to pick after casting my vote in the Blazikenite suspect and reading other votes was Baton Pass and how effective it'd be. I feel like with Blazikenite in the game, Baton Pass is broken. No, I'm not referring to Speed passing. I'm referring to the fact that you can transfer boosts onto a Blazikenite user and start sweeping the opposing team. As M'joe'ra said beforehand, it's a simple but efficient strategy - Set up entry hazards to break Sash/Sturdy Pokemon (I am in no way endorsing the use of a Focus Sash and/or Sturdy Pokemon in a metagame which revolves around Mega Stones) and then start sweeping. Using perhaps the most infamous Baton Passer as an example (Sablenite Mew), you're going to have to run Mold Breaker Taunt/Parting Shot Pangoro in order to beat it. ...The only Mold Breaker Taunt user I've seen is Deoxys-S and any skillful person will be wary of that Pokemon having Moldy Taunt. I haven't seen Pangoro used at all on ladder. If a strategy forces you to run overly specific Pokemon that you wouldn't run otherwise, it's broken in my book.

Ban Gengarite.
Initially I was going to abstain from voting on this one just to tick Grains of Salt off even more after eviolite goomy abstained, but after reading M'joe'ra's vote, I'm gonna vote ban. Mega Gengar is the epitome of what I dislike: A speedy Shadow Tag Pokemon. Why do I dislike that type of Pokemon? Well, you can't switch out for starters. Sure, you're gonna have that one turn to Mega Evolve where Shadow Tag is ineffective, but you don't know what set the Gengar is going to run. You might be running a counter for Pidgeotite Gengar and then be completely screwed over once you realize (a turn too late) that the Gengar is running Gengarite. Perish Trapping is annoying, Destiny Bond is annoying, and Hypnosis is annoying. You're gonna be running different checks to all of these and you can be caught off-guard by any of these sets no matter how good you are. There's also the opportunity cost, or the lack thereof in MnM. This isn't every issue I have with Gengarite, but I'm lazy. Sue me.
 
Not suspect related but I thought I'd share a couple things.

Firstly, Empoleon is a surprisingly good Blazikenite user that no one else seems to have picked up on.
It's stats look like this: 84/126/98/131/111/80

Like Excadrill, its Steel typing is particularly useful for resisting all forms of E-Speed, though unlike Excadrill it's Water typing prevents Weavile from revenge killing it too. It also has a far easier time setting up in the face of things than Excadrill does thanks to its superior bulk. It's power doesn't seem that awesome comparatively but given how much easier I find it to get off a Swords Dance as Empoleon I think it's worth.

This is the set I've been using:
Empoleon @ Blazikenite
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Waterfall
- Earthquake
- Protect

With a Swords Dance or two under the belt Waterfall becomes an extremely powerful STAB move, and is able to flinch hax through mega walls. It's also handy that Skarmory, the most common Physical wall, uses Blue Orb so that Waterfall smacks it harder. Earthquake on the other hand is used for destroying Red Orb users. All together Empoleon makes for a pretty reliable cleaner late game. Worthy of B or B- imo.
I'll try to let the calcs and replays speak more for themselves though:

+2 252+ Atk Empoleon Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in Heavy Rain: 240-283 (71.8 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Empoleon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 312-368 (77.2 - 91%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Empoleon Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 229-271 (76.5 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Pixilate Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Empoleon: 108-127 (34.9 - 41.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-445128450
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-445127577
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-443194969


Another quick thing is that I feel Heracronite should be listed as a good stone on Mamoswine in the Viability Rankings.
Has a stronger Ice STAB nuke than the other two stones listed and sacrifices speed for better bulk.
Heracronite
Glalitite
Lucarionite

252+ Atk Mamoswine Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 300-360 (87.9 - 105.5%) -- approx. 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Refrigerate Mamoswine Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 292-345 (85.6 - 101.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Adaptability Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 244-288 (71.5 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 240-283 (70.3 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 220-259 (64.5 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Adaptability Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 286-338 (83.8 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 96-114 (28.1 - 33.4%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 88-105 (25.8 - 30.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Adaptability Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 116-138 (34 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Mamoswine Superpower vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 328-388 (85.8 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Mamoswine Superpower vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 302-356 (79 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mamoswine Superpower vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 294-348 (76.9 - 91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 138-164 (38.2 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 195-230 (54 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 165-195 (45.7 - 54%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 259-306 (71.7 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 364-430 (100.8 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 309-364 (85.5 - 100.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
 
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Do NOT ban Gengarite
While Mega Gengar may be the annoying piece of s*** we all know, he is far from being broken. I've got reqs using Pidgeotite Gengar and what I can say is that THAT is the thing we should watch out from. The only thing that I cas say about Mega Gengar is that it can be annoying if you don't see it coming, but even then, there so many ways to kill it or neutralize it that it's not even fun. All in all, this is just a twisted Ubers metagame, and in regualr Ubers Mega Gengar is just one of the 5 Pokémons in S rank (excluding P-Groudon). So, how exactly should it be more threatening in a metagame where so many powerhouses can easily outspeed and kill it? Many people talk about how broken Persih Trap can be but one must also remember how frail Gengar is. He NEEDS a free turn in order to set up, else he's gonna die doing nothing in the process. There are much bigger threats in this metagame to be wanting to ban this thing.

BAN Baton Pass
In normal competitive play, I'm completely against a full ban of this move because of how versatile this is. While is is mostly used to pass Stat boosts, some Pokémon like Celebi or Sylveon use it as a way to escape their trappers or as a momentum grabbing move. This is completetly different in this metagame: Baton Pass is used to make powerful threats even more powerful, and there is nothing you can effectively do to prevent this from happening. Heck, once I've tried to Mold Breaker Roar a MB Smeargle and it turned out he had INGRAIN. And on top of that, the most known and effective Baton Passer is Mew, which sports a huge movepool, great defensive stats, and can provide any stat boost the receiver needs. Baton Pass is an uncompetitive strategy that forces you to run some weird shit that carries Roar just to get rid of it, slowing your team down in the process. Sorry I need to puke now
 
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Gengarite: Do Not Ban
I don't see any reason to ban the Gengarite. As it was just said, Mix and Mega is just a Uber metagame, and even if Mega Gengar is powerful enough in Uber to be S rank, here the true threat isn't the Gengarite. It's true that Shadow Tag can be a huge pain in the ass if you aren't careful enough, but it's also true that due to all the firepower that we have in this meta and Gengar's fragilty it is far and far from being broken. The only thing broken here it's Pidgeotite Gengar, so i don't think why we should ban the Gengarite and not ban it's Pidgeotite counterpart.
I've seen a few Mega Gengars until now, and they weren't as broken as people think Gengar is, so i vote for keeping Gengarite in the meta, at least until Pidgeotite Gengar is not banned from here.

Baton Pass: Ban
As long as I played in my whole life, I always hated Baton Pass teams, and I was very happy when they created the Baton Pass Clause. Because we know, that thing is cancer. I don't dislike it used to gain momentum or avoiding Pursuits like with Celebi, but used to pass setups it's a huge bullshit.
In Anything Goes, with the right plays, Baton Pass teams are still very solid and it's hard to break the chain without Taunt or Roar, even if Espeon it's still there. Here the situation is even worse, because Sablenite Mew can setup and baton pass very easily, due to its good bulk (100/150/150 with Magic Bounce is terrible), and if you don't use things like powerful ghost/dark like Gengar or Gyaradosite Taunt just in time, you can just sit down and see Mew passing its +2 atk to an -Ate user like Arcanine, Zygarde or Entei and say goodbye to half or more of your team.
 

Attachments

Got reqs somehow


Could have made it in 18 but I encountered M'joe'ra on my run and they beat me :P Ditto stronk

Ok, so votes, time to scrape out 6 lines on Baton Pass:
BAN Baton Pass
It makes already amazing things broken and honestly doesn't have much other competitive use (not seen any Drypassing in MnM). There aren't many viable Baton Pass users afaik, and while I would have preferred a Mew suspect, this works as well as it doesn't get rid of a 'mon that's not really broken otherwise (and besides, what if another baton pass abuser rears it's ugly head?). Ok, so actual reasoning. It's pretty bullshit - you can pass boosts to -atespeeders (for example, other absurd receivers include Diancite Hoopa, though that example is pretty meh due to being killed by -atespeed, or Blazikenite Victini) that they really shouldn't have. Wasn't Lucario banned for it's ability to sweep with +2 -atespeeds? Well Mew can give Entei exactly that and you pretty much have a slightly inferior Lucario. It's not like it's hard to set up either as Mew is bulky as hell. 100/150/150 defenses is approaching Gira-O territory and it can set up boosts on a tonne of stuff, especially if they lack Mold Breaker Taunt, of which there are exactly 2 decent users of, Deo-S and Mew itself. No good player is leading Mew vs Deo-S, and Mew V Mew is just all sorts of messy. You also have to be very good at predicting to beat it with just a phazer - Predict wrong and they've got their +2 Entei or +2 Hoopa-U Furthermore, it's not like it can only pass offensive boosts - It can make some already pretty fat things even bulkier, like Blissey, Ferro or Skarm. Hell, most offensive 'mons appreciate defensive boosts as it stops a lot of -atespeed shenanigans. Overall, just ban Baton Pass because it's really not useful outside of the cancer that got it tested in the first place, and as such there's no real point to preserving something broken for other 'mons

ABSTAIN on Gengarite
While it's true it can trap and remove certain things and aid sweeps, when I've used it it never really did anything, or trapped like a Pixilatespeeder and died after. Blue Orb Skarm has like 130 base attack brave bird, which will sting the relatively frail Mega Gengar, so it either has to OHKO or take massive damage back, especially when Skarm has hazards on your side (shoutouts Deoxys and Primal Groudon). Honestly, whenever I used it I often wished I was using Pidgeotite. However, at the same time, trapping things for other sweepers is pretty broken in theory at least and maybe (actually most likely) I'm just utter ass at life and 'mons using Mega Gengar. Not got much else to say tbh, I don't have a particularly strong opinion on it.

And now, for team time! maybe one day I will stop using deo-s HO for MnM

Landorus-Therian @ Blazikenite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Protect

Cobalion @ Pinsirite
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Return
- Close Combat
- Quick Attack

Thundurus @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def
- Thunder
- Nasty Plot
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Focus Blast

Deoxys-Speed @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Magic Coat

Entei @ Altarianite
Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Sacred Fire
- Stone Edge
- Return

Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 252 HP / 56 Def / 200 SpD
Impish Nature
- Thunder
- Swords Dance
- Precipice Blades
- Stone Edge


The team's built around the offensive core SD Blazikenite Lando and SD Cobalion, who can help overwhelm each others' shared check in Skarm, with them both being pretty good "noob killers" (ie. low ladder has like 0 checks for either of them). Both are also decent checks to opposing Blazikeniters. I added Pidgeotite NP Thundurus to break Skarm more reliably and sweep potentially. Then, we have standard Deo-S suicide lead with Gyaradosite to take less from cheeky Weaviles and be bulkier than Ampharosite. Bug is also pretty rare so idk why I didn't run this before. Entei is my -atespeeder, RKs things and is just generally a menace to faster 'mons and opposing Lando. Finally, I added PDon for my more offensively inclined -atespeed check and heat Skarm lure, weakening it for Lando, Entei and Coba. Thunder hits Skarm pretty hard in rain, as many will use Blue Orb Skarm to counter it. Most other Blue Orbers lose to PDon anyways. SD + EdgeQuake breaks bulky cores, and is just generally scary to balance. Standard supportive for the rare GeoXern and to better take -atespeeders.
 
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http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-444009711
Parting Shot is useful against Baton Pass. Simply having it as an option threatens the foe enough that they won't go for anything more than quickpass, which is much more manageable. (There are multiple other things wrong with this replay, though, such as me taking a stupid risk with Blissey vs. Zygarde due to panicking about the possibility they might smarten up and Coil/Dragon Dance, and me not using Doom Desire right away vs. Hoopa-Unbound despite knowing that Diancite sets always carry Protect. Didn't expect Blazikenite but, as I said, I still should've known better due to Diancite. Also, that Drain Punch survival was a 25% chance before you take the 6.25% crit chance into account, which is just sheer luck on my part. Doom Desire + Weavile's Feint will usually work on Blazikenite Hoopa-Unbound even without a Feint crit. 68% is a mid-low damage roll from Doom Desire, and even after that low damage roll Feint has a slim chance to KO after it without a crit. The alternative is to read the Protect and Feint instead of using Fake Out, but that's risky.)

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-444842895
Parting Shot is useful against things other than Baton Pass, too. In particular, here it leaves the foe with a 2-turn-sleep Sablenite Suicune in the back.
 

sin(pi)

lucky n bad

I'm going to preface this by saying that I only faced 2-3 teams on the ladder which were anything near good, and one of them was my loss. I don't know whether it was BP, espeed or just "low ladder" that carried me through to get reqs, though I will note that I only saw 1 Skarmory, and it was a suicide lead as opposed to Blue Orb. As such, I don't feel comfortable enough in voting just yet, so I'm going to Abstain from both. (I might edit in a ban/dnb vote later)

Arcanine @ Pinsirite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Flare Blitz
- Wild Charge
- Close Combat

Deoxys-Speed @ Ampharosite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Psycho Boost

Groudon @ Red Orb
Ability: Drought
EVs: 244 HP / 252 Atk / 12 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Swords Dance
- Rock Slide
- Precipice Blades

Metagross @ Blazikenite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Protect
- Meteor Mash
- Zen Headbutt
- Rock Slide

Mew @ Sablenite
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 216 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Baton Pass
- Roost
- Swords Dance
- Iron Defense

Zygarde @ Altarianite
Ability: Aura Break
Happiness: 0
EVs: 188 HP / 252 Atk / 68 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Earthquake
- Dragon Dance
- Substitute

I didn't use my brain very much while making (or playing with) this team. Deo-S is hazards lead, I personally prefer Ampharosite because Psycho Boost hits really hard and Taunt means people can't even setup on you. I'd suggest modifying the EVs to always live Fake Out + Feint from Glalitite Weavile, as well as Altarianite Entei's Espeed, pre-mega, because that nearly impacted a few games of mine. Then I added BP Mew and Espeed Arcanine, Arcanine because it has the coverage to beat everything with boosts (Blue Orb Skarm only needs 2 rounds of rocks before it's at risk of an OHKO from +2 WC). Originally Mew was Amnesia, but the metagame is so much more physically biased so I switched to Iron Defense. Next was Zygarde as an alternative Espeeder and revenge killer, as well as yet another wincon. At this point I was really weak to opposing Espeed so I added Blazikenite Metagross and Pdon which answer those well, I think RP > Twave is better on Pdon though since certain grounds check it and Sablenite is common-ish, my rationale was catching things premega and getting skill hax to help. Meta is really solid, Rock Slide is p much filler but hits Skarm for a tiny bit and Pinsirite mons harder than anything else. Meta is also a great BP recipient thanks to Speed Boost and resisting -ate.
Team is pretty mediocre tbqh but it carried me so \:o/
 
I'm still not able to take screenshots well, so have this proof instead.
Name:BPG Zephyr Elo: 1361 GXE: 78.0% Glicko: 1743 ± 73 Wins: 17 Losses: 1


I laddered with a darn Jellicent and a Politoed. That's how much it sucked. (You can see a few of the highlights in the Silly Things thread. I faced a HP Fire Primal Kyogre....) My sole loss was from someone up in the 1600s, and even then, it was close.

My thoughts on these two components have not changed in the slightest.

Gengarite: Do Not Ban Shadow Tag is really annoying in regular play. It deserved to be thrown upstairs over there. Especially for Gengar. Here, however.... Pidgeotite Gengar flatly outclasses it. I literally assume that every Gengar I face is a Pidgeotite variant. Those hit harder, and have a 100% accurate Sleep move, and is every bit as fast. Needless to say, this is quite annoying to face. Gengarite Gengar does not have the sheer POWER that Pidgeotite gives it. Pretty much every credible threat in the tier has some sort of answer to Shadow Tag. Skarmory simply whirlwinds it, and moves on. Hippodwon either Roars or uses Earthquake on the ghost. Tanks simply hit it once, which due to Mega Gengar's bulk, will likely leave it below 25%, particularly if it's a physical attacker. The only thing that is actually going to be reliably taken down by Perish Song is Blissey. Otherwise, you simply use a teamslot to take out a member of the opposing team as a revenge... at best. This lead me into the next point....

Baton Pass: Do Not Ban I am well aware that I am playing devil's advocate here. (Though I don't care if it gets banned regardless; it's not like I'll ever be using it) Even with the results that BP Mew give, I credit that mainly to Mew itself. Smeargle does not have the bulk necessary to pull this off (given how fast Gengar can go down to even bulky attackers), and Scizor and Vaporeon both have gaps in their movepool that make them far more tolerable.
Tying into my pervious point, Perish Song also puts a damper on this. In addition to Gengar (who is not too bulky anyways), there is also Lapras, Wigglytuff, Honchkrow, Politoed, and.... Arceus. Yep, the god himself has a counterplay to this. (and sweeping in general, really) There's also Taunt... which despite being a very effective move, was only mentioned on Deoxys-S and Mew. There are FAR more users than that. If there's something about Mix and Mega that makes it have staying power, it's that there is a huge niche pool of mons that you can draw from, and still do incredibly well. Among these taunters, Crobat is the main one, followed by a slew of other ones, including Heatran, all three of the Muskateers and Genies, Froslass, and too many others to list. Crobat in particular does not mind being given an additional Dark typing... which lets it wreck additional havoc. More on that later.
One more thing before I close up. When this (probably) gets banned, Mew... won't be going anywhere. It might just run a similar setup to before, and maybe even sweep by its lonesome. This whole BP thing is likely limiting Mew because you can actually try to predict what it will do....

Phew... this post isn't quite over. I just need a rest before my analyses, based on the team that I used.
 

david0895

Mercy Main Btw
is a Pre-Contributor
Immagine.png

Do Not Ban Gengarite

As a uber based metagame, I think that there is not particular problem with Shadow Tag. It's more dangerous with Pidgeotite, thanks to the combo No Guard + Hypnosis + Hex (+ Focus Blast).
Also there are two big problems with Mega Gengar: 1) It's fast, but not so fast 2) It's too frail
1) Mega Gengar has 130 speed, there are a lot of faster pokemons in this tier (Diancite, Lopunnite, Blazikenite, Extreme -ate user, ecc...) that can easily kill it.
2) Mega Gengar has very low defenses, allowing a lot pokemons with priority (Metagross, Scizor, Extreme-ate, ecc...) to revenge kill easily.
About Shadow Tag: if Mega Gengar will be banned beacuse of, also even Wobbuffet should follow him, and that would be very stupid.

Ban Baton Pass

In these 21 matches I have mainly did these two things:
1) Sablenite Mew + Sword Dance + Baton Pass
2) Pinsirite Arcanine + Extreme Speed (+ occasional coverage)

The problem with the boost pass, is that in this meta the power output is more higher than Uber, but the defenses are lower. That's because the mega stones doesn't give to the pokemons a "uber" bulk (only Sablenite and Slowbronite can), so setupping in this meta is very difficult. Except for Sablenite user, that can be stopped only by Mold Breaker Taunt/Roar user.
Also only a few things can survive to the Extreme -ate users, if they can start with a minimum boost of +2, the list is much shorter.
 
Gengarite: Do Not Ban Shadow Tag is really annoying in regular play. It deserved to be thrown upstairs over there. Especially for Gengar. Here, however.... Pidgeotite Gengar flatly outclasses it. I literally assume that every Gengar I face is a Pidgeotite variant. Those hit harder, and have a 100% accurate Sleep move, and is every bit as fast. Needless to say, this is quite annoying to face. Gengarite Gengar does not have the sheer POWER that Pidgeotite gives it. Pretty much every credible threat in the tier has some sort of answer to Shadow Tag. Skarmory simply whirlwinds it, and moves on. Hippodwon either Roars or uses Earthquake on the ghost. Tanks simply hit it once, which due to Mega Gengar's bulk, will likely leave it below 25%, particularly if it's a physical attacker. The only thing that is actually going to be reliably taken down by Perish Song is Blissey. Otherwise, you simply use a teamslot to take out a member of the opposing team as a revenge... at best. This lead me into the next point....

Baton Pass: Do Not Ban I am well aware that I am playing devil's advocate here. (Though I don't care if it gets banned regardless; it's not like I'll ever be using it) Even with the results that BP Mew give, I credit that mainly to Mew itself. Smeargle does not have the bulk necessary to pull this off (given how fast Gengar can go down to even bulky attackers), and Scizor and Vaporeon both have gaps in their movepool that make them far more tolerable.
Tying into my pervious point, Perish Song also puts a damper on this. In addition to Gengar (who is not too bulky anyways), there is also Lapras, Wigglytuff, Honchkrow, Politoed, and.... Arceus. Yep, the god himself has a counterplay to this. (and sweeping in general, really) There's also Taunt... which despite being a very effective move, was only mentioned on Deoxys-S and Mew. There are FAR more users than that. If there's something about Mix and Mega that makes it have staying power, it's that there is a huge niche pool of mons that you can draw from, and still do incredibly well. Among these taunters, Crobat is the main one, followed by a slew of other ones, including Heatran, all three of the Muskateers and Genies, Froslass, and too many others to list. Crobat in particular does not mind being given an additional Dark typing... which lets it wreck additional havoc. More on that later.
One more thing before I close up. When this (probably) gets banned, Mew... won't be going anywhere. It might just run a similar setup to before, and maybe even sweep by its lonesome. This whole BP thing is likely limiting Mew because you can actually try to predict what it will do....
While I don't like commenting on other's votes, this really annoyed me to see, so here we go.

Skarmory might whirlwind Pidgegar, but it also takes>70% damage, meaning that arcanine can then easily ko it. MGar can also trap and beat BO Pokemon such as Arceus, Victini, Archeops, Heatran, Ferrothorn, and Entei. The offensive trapper runs 3 moves+psong, and honestly is extremely effective at what it does (remove -ate, remove walls, remove Rkers, remove -ate answers...) It's only real limiting factor is that it's speed tier isn't as good as in Ubers and that it can usually only do that to one or two Pokemon a match. While I agree that it shouldn't be banned, saying it only takes on one opponents, and even then only sometimes is blatantly untrue.


Nothing there can use perish song. Lapras is garbage, Wigglytuff is literally garbage, Honchkrow is outclassed and won't run it (insomnia honch is the only use), Politoed is mediocre and won't run it, and Arceus can't spare a moveslot even in tiers such as AG. Meanwhile, I think you seem to be forgetting magic bounce, which means only mold breaker taunt can hit (either that or you are suggesting that frosslass/Cobalion run gyardosite). FInally, Mew can't sweep by itself, and thats the point. It lacks priority, is slow, has a bad offensive typing, and lacks the moveslots to run that effectively.
 
While I don't like commenting on other's votes, this really annoyed me to see, so here we go.

Skarmory might whirlwind Pidgegar, but it also takes>70% damage, meaning that arcanine can then easily ko it. MGar can also trap and beat BO Pokemon such as Arceus, Victini, Archeops, Heatran, Ferrothorn, and Entei. The offensive trapper runs 3 moves+psong, and honestly is extremely effective at what it does (remove -ate, remove walls, remove Rkers, remove -ate answers...) It's only real limiting factor is that it's speed tier isn't as good as in Ubers and that it can usually only do that to one or two Pokemon a match. While I agree that it shouldn't be banned, saying it only takes on one opponents, and even then only sometimes is blatantly untrue.

Nothing there can use perish song. Lapras is garbage, Wigglytuff is literally garbage, Honchkrow is outclassed and won't run it (insomnia honch is the only use), Politoed is mediocre and won't run it, and Arceus can't spare a moveslot even in tiers such as AG. Meanwhile, I think you seem to be forgetting magic bounce, which means only mold breaker taunt can hit (either that or you are suggesting that frosslass/Cobalion run gyardosite). FInally, Mew can't sweep by itself, and thats the point. It lacks priority, is slow, has a bad offensive typing, and lacks the moveslots to run that effectively.
...I figured I'd get a harsh response such as this. (And I apologize for having annoyed you enough for that to happen) Let me further explain.
Mega Gengar is able to eliminate many threats it has an advantage over... but it is very likely to receive heavy damage in any counter attack, including what you listed (minus Victini) leaving Perish Song Gengar completely reliable against Blissey, weakened threats, and set-up too weak to deal with Gengar, such as Suicune and Florges (I was wrong about only Blissey, but that's the only real target I see on most teams, outside of using Thunder Mega Gengar to zap Skarmory). Aggronite mons are likely to be bulky and offensive, and even some of the weaker ones can get Gengar down below 25% HP, leaving it unable to make a Substitute, an incredibly important step in taking out some threats. Attacking is an entirely different deal, as it still hits pretty hard... but I would rather have accurate Focus Blasts and Hypnosis, giving Pidgeotite Gengar few safe switch-ins....

The distribution of Perish Song is pretty much there (and the rest of it is still very linited). Take it or leave it. And I wouldn't really call judgment of all of those mons so quickly if I haven't seen them in action. Anything Goes is a different beast altogether, and does not pertain to this tier in the slightest.... Not everything can run Gyaradosite well (Cobalion and friends sure can't), but Froslass and especially Crobat can. (And others also run Ampharosite just as well... such as Heatran) And speaking of which... let's loosen up a bit with analyses.

Politoed: I thought this learned Drain Punch, but it doesn't, which made me sad. At least Swampertite Politoed gets Belly Drum and Swift Swim, leaving it a ton of threats to outspeed!...except there is priority everywhere. You aren't even safe around Mew; it could use that -ate Fake Out (I have seen it)... Extreme Speed just takes off half of the toad's health, obviously. And Perish Song is a bad option for this route.

Jellicent: Yep, I used it. The biggest problem with using the Jelly is actually where you start... Do you use Sceptilite for that Lightning Rod boost? Do you use Aggronite for yet another defensive Water/Steel with healing? Do you just go for a standard defensive stone...? I went for the last one (Sablenite), and it served me nicely. The damage output is very disappointing, but the special bulk and Will-O-Wisp can be nice. Hardly the worst water type out there, and definitely usable.

Ho-oh: Being a balance player, I had to use the balance lord himself. And, as you might expect, I like the big bird. Brave Bird and Earthquake can really put the hurt on many types, and Sacred Fire does that and burns enemies. Just watch out for that Heatran, or just locking yourself into the wrong move (if you're also using this choiced).

Garchomp: This worked out so much better than I imagined. Probably because the competition wasn't good. But Aggronite Chomp really makes people think twice about their -ate Speeders, as it outspeeds them, and is now neutral to Pixie speed. And it can learn Iron Head... and can boost. I think you can see where I'm going with this. Lucarionite is there if you simply want to smash stuff.

Crobat: Actually quite underrated in this meta. Perhaps even criminally so... Gyaradosite makes this bat really irritating to face. It has one single weakness, is pretty bulky for a speedster, and can throw around Toxic and Taunts all day, and can even heal to boot. Sadly, it cannot learn Foul Play. (That would be TOO perfect) I originally had Defog on this for Ho-oh, until I realized having an attack was so much better. (I was right, considering that a Pidgeotite Gengar fell in 2 Dark Pulses) Expect at least one of your mons to get poisoned if this comes in. Also, it can just run Banettite instead, and add priority and damage to its attacks at the cost of poisoning your Blissey.

Zygarde: Did you expect Mew again? I think I only saw a single Mew, if any, during the entire 18 battles. Yeah, the low ladder might be a bit sad this time... This deserves its S-Rank. Completely. I used Coil Altrianite, and pretty much everything that Garchomp and Ho-oh wasn't smashing through, this was. Coil makes Zygarde a nightmare to take down, and doubly so for physical attackers. Of course, Skarmory can phase it out.... unless you speed creep the Skarmory, and run Dragon Tail. You monster. (Or it can just hit it with Stone Edge....)
 

bp scrub

rub a dub dub one scrub in a tub
the point of gengarite is not to potentially smash up holes in your opponent's team like pidgeotite potentially can, but to target specific threats and take those out with ease

If your opponent has like a Sablenite Blissey + Blue Orb Skarm core, Pidgeotite Gengar can't do anything against that since the opponent can just go into Blissey every time, while Gengarite can trap and kill both of them.

Trading 1 for 1 can potentially be really useful too; if you have some setup sweeper like Pinsirite Cobalion and your opponent only has like 1 counter to it, you can trap that counter with Gengar and then proceed to sweep with whatever setup sweeper you have
or a scenario in which your opponent's team is weakened to the point that -atespeed can sweep through except that he still has a blue orb skarm. you trap the skarm, something that nothing else can do (except magnezone ig but whatever) and now you win
 
Not suspect related (already voted) but I'd like to point out that Slowbronite or Aggronite are NOT good stones for Reuniclus. With those equipped, Reuniclus basically becomes a worse Mew, with lower defenses and worse movepool. Cameruptite Reuniculus is the way to go. This thing has 110/85/105/165/115/10 Base Stats, AND it gets Sheer Force boosts on most of its movepool. I've tried to use it as a wincondition and it has never let me down so far. Focus Blast shaky accuracy sucks at times but we all know the love-hate relationship with this move. Imo Max Def Max SpA Quiet is the best for it, because he has great natural special bulk and the extra Defense can be really handy to eat an Extreme Speed and proceed to blow up the place

Some calcs to prove how devastating this thing can be:

252+ SpA Sheer Force Reuniclus Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Altarianite Entei: 316-373 (85.1 - 100.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Sheer Force Reuniclus Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sablenite Mew: 160-190 (39.6 - 47%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (I know that nobody uses this but I wanted to show how Reuniclus fares in a worst case scenario)

252 Atk Aerilate Pinsirite Arcanine Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Reuniclus: 123-145 (33.9 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Reuniclus Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arcanine: 252-297 (78.5 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock


You got the point, too tired to make other calcs. Just use it as a late game cleaner and he's gonna work wonders. Also remember that he can switchin on every kind of entry hazard (except for Toxic Spikes I guess lmao) courtesy of Magic Guard pre-mega, so even if you lose the hazard war you'll still have your wincon healty and ready to destroy your opponent's team.
I think that an initial placing of C or even B- would be ok, but I'd be fine if it was moved anywhere up from D. Like seriously, this thing is far better from fuggin' Giratina and Shaymin
 
Most Blisseys cannot do much back to either Gengar, so keep that in mind...
Pidgeotite Gengar is better at the beginning of games, and indeed, it is a common lead. You basically need something faster or something with Magic Bounce right there to deal with it, if you want to keep your team intact...
Of course, there is a merit to methodically trapping things. Removing a threat guaranteed with Gengarite Gengar removes all of the guesswork, which you sometimes really want. Gengar itself might be sacrificed in the process, though. The appropriate response to seeing a Gengar is simply bashing it with priority. Basically... Gengar is really scary. If you think it's going to Perish Song, it might just put you to sleep instead. And sometimes that's worse than just fainting.

The mention of this, and the discussion about a Poison type brings a thought to my head... Toxic Spikes should be really good in this meta, due to there being barely any poison types, and flying types becoming so after they mega evolve. I want to build such a team as a sendoff to the meta until 7th gen.
 
BPG369.png


Before Mega Gengar: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/mix-and-mega-finale-suspect-test-1797.3540979/page-55#post-6683789
Blissey and Skarmory should be in S rank

After Mega Gengar: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/mix-and-mega-finale-suspect-test-1797.3540979/page-71#post-6999322
Skarmory should be in A+, and Blissey should be in A (or lower)

Ban Gengarite

The last time this was OMOTM, I think that most people would have agreed that Blissey was S rank worthy, but Mega Gengar being legal now has extremely reduced the viability of Blissey. Against teams that run Mega Gengar, the only aid that Blissey can give to a team is setting up stealth rocks once, heal belling once, and/or t-waving the Gengar. Since Blissey cannot switch, the only way it can beat Gengar before dying to Perish Song is by running Shadow Ball. But if the Gengar has some EVs in HP, then in order to 2HKO, Blissey will have also needed to invest some EVs in spatk, or have calm minded up.

Also, due to double Protect shenanigans, there is a 50% chance that a 2HKO move may not be enough to get you out of a perishtrap situation. Here is something that happened to me: A Gengar came in. I switch my Sablenite Vaporeon into it expecting it to be Pidgeotite, but it's actually Gengarite and it uses Sludge Bomb. It then uses Perish Song and I use Scald (did around 65%). It then gets a double Protect then switches out while my Vaporeon dies. It all came down to luck, and my opponent took the risk of losing their Gengar, because for them there was little to lose and much to gain.

And with Thunder, Mega Gengar can also be used to trap and beat Blue Orb Skarmory as well, but Skarmory has an offensive presence so it can beat Gengar as well (by predicting the switchin and brave birding the Gengar OR by making it max HP+spdef and whirlwinding it out after taking a 58-80% Thunder).

With a great 130 base speed, and an awesome 170 base spatk, Gengarite Gengar is a threat to offence as well. It has access to a lot of good moves including Destiny Bond and Pain Split, so you never know what to truly expect when confronted against it, and before Gengar Mega Evolves you won't even know if it's a Pidgeotite variant (which requires different checks).

I don't feel as though Mega Gengar is broken, I just feel as though it's uncompetitive, and that it's pushed Mix and Mega away from balance and more into offense. Like many other people have said, comparing the Mega Gengar in Ubers to the one here isn't really that effective when determining if Mega Gengar is or is not unhealthy for Mix and Mega. In Ubers, you can only have one Mega, and using that Mega slot for a perishtrapper isn't all that great seeing how Ubers is a naturally offensive tier AND because it is reasonable/recommended to run Shed Shell on a bulky/passive wall.

Despite the fact that Blissey and Skarm are great walls, with Magic Bounce, Mold Breaker, and Extreme Speed everywhere (and no Unaware), Mix and Mega was and never will be a stally meta. Gengarite Gengar has the ability to break every passive Mon in M&M. It is literally impossible to make a decent stall team in Mix and Mega.

Abstain on Baton Pass

I don't feel qualified to make a decision on Baton Pass CURRENTLY.

But I have something I want to say about outright banning the move. A handful of Mons do run Baton Pass without passing boosts. Right now, only Shedinja and Vaporeon come to mind. I have seen 2 higher ladder people (1450+) using Shedinja (not Mega) with BP. I personally don't think it's all that great though. Now onto Vaporeon: In February, the last ladder match I lost was against someone using Sablenite Vaporeon with BP. When I would switch in my Hoopa-U to beat it, the Vapo would immediately use BP on prediction. It happened like 3 times, and my team was whittled down because of it, and I eventually lost. Because of that experience (and Mega Gengar), I've put BP Sablenite Vapo on my new team (over Sablenite Blissey). Having momentum in this meta is super important, so when Mons dont have access to U-turn/Voltswitch, I'd say that BP is often a good move to have on a Mon.

So I was gonna propose that BP is just banned on Mew, but then I remembered that DragonMasterCody uses a Sablenite Scizor with SD, Roost and BP. It does the exact same thing as the more popular Mew, and it's a good alternative. So yeah, that's why I think it would be better to just ban passing boosts over just banning the move Baton Pass.
 
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Ban Baton Pass: Mew is definitely the biggest offender here. It was already broken with just sablenite honestly, but much like regular baton pass it's tough to ban such a fringe strategy. With blazikenite it's even more out of hand, as you can equip any sweeper with a speed boost. If mew was limited to only this set it wouldn't be that difficult to counter, but due to all of its options you can often find yourself at a disadvantage because you HAVE to kill mew asap if it's baton pass. Giving it a single turn to set up can be game in many circumstances, considering it can boost any stat it wants and wall anything after a defensive boost. Plus, there are other pokemon like umbreon that can pass defensive boosts, and overall it's really unhealthy to exist in the tier imo. The few good counters (hoopa-u, dtail pdon, gengar) can all be countered pretty easily by the right mew set. I don't like this existing in the tier at all.

Do not ban Gengarite: While I can see good arguments for banning I never really felt its impact against me, though to be fairy I hardly use mons like Blissey that get abused by mgengar. When using it I usually just wished I was pidgeotite. While mega gengar is very powerful, its niche of shadow tag perish song is only effective against certain pokemon. It lacks the sheer power that other pokes in the tier have, and to boot it's no longer the fastest thing on the block, meaning its lackluster defenses are even easier to exploit. Even in situations where it is used to trap defensive pokemon, it requires a free turn to set up perish song, during which it can be attacked or statused. Plus, it can't trap right off the bat and needs to mega-evolve first. Using protect at the start of the game can alleviate this, but leaves you pretty behind on momentum against offense, and also lets your opponent know they don't have to fear a pidgeotite hypnosis. I think it's fine for this to be in the tier as a niche answer to defensive pokes, which can otherwise get out of hand.
 

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
http://prntscr.com/cmqzw0
Baton Pass: BAN THAT ASAP
Mew is disgustingly broken. Gengarite Genar can't 2HKO the spdef set. It learns too many moves. SD pass to an espeeder is gross. Iron defense pass to a blazikenite user is over powered. Mew is way too bulky and way to versatile. Magic bounce is the icing on the cake, and blazikenite togekiss being immune to dragon tail in the cherry on top. This strategy is mindless and overpowered.
And only ban passing boosts, not dry passing. But don't be like OU and leave speed passing. Ban passing any boosts.
Gengarite: DO NOT BAN
The thing is, Mega Gengar is really damn frail. So switching it in to a skarmory makes it take 80% from BB. Switching into a vaporeon gets it 2hkod. Sure it traps blissey, but run shadow ball blissey then! It's only really good on voltturn teams (u-turn slow scizor into mgar on one of my teams, or volt switch sablenite zappy), but i don't think that makes it quite broken. Also it just dies to flying espeed and cant one hit ko most mons unless it has the perfect coverage. Like focus blast doesnt kill arceus and gengar dies to eq right back. Not broken.
Now you can make the "uncompetitive" argument but I don't buy that.
 
Reqs: http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=984ylk&s=9#.V-rChSQllS0

Baton Pass: BAN
The issue with Baton Pass is that is it one of the strongest archetypes in Mix and Mega, yet it can be pulled off rather easily compared to the likes of regular play styles. All one has to do use this strategy:

1. Find an opportunity
2. Set up with correct move
3. Pass to an -ate or Blazikenite sweeper

To combat Baton Pass you just have to prevent one of these 3 steps. For most teams, countering Mew is done by preventing step 1. These are methods such as offensive pressure with Mold Breaker Taunt Leads (or any user) or sheer offensive pressure through wall breakers. However, usually strategies like these end up failing due to something random like mew using U-Turn on Hoopa-U (lol) or offensive momentum shifts. After the offensive pressure is gone, Mew + recipient will win.

To stop Mew in step 2, using hard checks like dragon tail Primal Groudon or Mold Breaker Roar will work. Again, these counter plays can be stopped by Mew's own counter plays such as Taunt or Substitute. One of the most underrated methods is of stopping mew here is setting up a substitute. This prevents mew from going to step 3 since the recipient must tank a strong hit from something like Keldeo. To beat this, mew would have to carry defense boosting moves for either special or physical depending on the threat.

Step 3 has a huge number of counter plays. Primal Groudon is one of the best as it usually just beats the recipient 1v1, Blue Orb Skarmory can phase the recipient, Ditto can counter sweep, bulky Landorous-T and faster priority. Although stopping it this step usually results in a trade-off, Mew now has 1 less recipient for passing boosts and if this keeps up, eventually Mew will be the last one left, completely helpless.

Overall, the methods of beating Baton Pass are certainly plenty, but it requires overly careful team building to stop such a basic yet insanely effective threat which is not good for the meta. There is a feeling of unfairness when fighting baton pass since the strategy is so simple and hard to beat compared to the complicated strategy your own team is constructed upon.

Gengarite: DNB
Gengarite is a tool for teams to remove specific threats. This is not broken by any means because good Ubers based teams use synergy, pressure and check threats in a collective manner. Removing a single threat should not damage the overall structure of a team. Gengarite does not invalidate any play styles either. The team simply must take a collective effort to check Gengar and weary that it may not even be holding Gengarite.

Balance can still make solid teams that still function well even with the omnipresent threat of Shadow Tag. The meta will simply have to stop using extremely vulnerable Pokemon like Blissey and Clefable, or at least without pursuit. And this is by no means a bad thing, in any meta there will be unreliable Pokemon.

Moving onto Gengarite's impact on stall, the meta itself does not exist and if it does exist, it is bad. There are too may things that rip stall apart like Tough Claws Garchomp, Adaptability wall breakers (Terrakion/Keldeo), Hoopa-U, Swords Dance Primal Groudon, ect. It is not Gengar's fault that stall sucks.

Gengarite does not threaten offense at all. The best thing it can do is trap and kill something like Pixilate Entei and get killed right after, unless you carefully time a destiny bond. In fact, offense can usually safely assume it is always Pidgeotite.
 
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I was going to hold off on the votes because I wasn't worried but then some things got me worried a little.

Ban Baton Pass:
I've been thinking about this alot on how Mew is really the culprit for Baton Pass and not Baton Pass itself. Ater alot of internal struggle there was no around it that baton pass is the culprit and not Mew.
It pains me to say it because I'm the one running around with Baton Pass Shedinja and that is a great nerf to my team. But the ability Mew holds over Baton Passing makes it completely simple strategy leaving you with no hope if you Do not have the following counter. Dragon tail or Parting shot. I'm not saying Mold Breaker+Taunt because as stated only two pokemon are running that and one is too busy being a baton passer. I've seen some amazing combinations coming from Baton Pass outside of the typical SD+Ate Sweeper. Mew-Calm Mind+Iron Defense-> Blazikenite Stored Power Latias. This just made up that mind immediately that Baton Pass is unhealthy when you can switch up the style of sweeping, making it extremely versatile.

DO NOT BAN Gengarite:
I haven't played with Gengarite so I decided to give it a try. I immediately wished I had Pidgeoite Gengar.

What Does Gengarite do?
Trap and trade 1 for 1 against "certain" teams. I use the word "Certain" because there are very few chances to utilize the trapping part effectively. Here is a calc that pissed me off when I came across a skarmory for it to do it's job.

252 SpA Mega Gengar Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (90 Spdef) Skarmory: 226-268 (67.6 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That Irked me because Skarmory was still alive and viable to wall my groudon who did have Stone Edge for Skarmory(Because I didn't have to worry about coverage against when my gengar was supposed to get rid of it)It made me wonder. Is this thing's role severely limited to just trapping Blissey, WEAKENED skarmory, and weakened Sweepers who haven't already set up or Ate speed? With Trapping Blissey and Skarmory, it made me realize even more that stall is non existent in this metagame. Is Gengarite to blame? Mmmmm I would say there are alot more culprits than Gengarite. Gengarite is blissey's biggest threat but unfortunately it is all it can threaten. The Scenarios where Gengarite can do it's job outside of blissey are limited and Pidgeoite can most likely do it better. Because hey if my sweeper is weakened and it hasn't used any Set ups or isn't an Ate Speed, I'll just sacrifice it rather than trying to predict against Pidgeoite Gengar. As a bonus here are the list of walls in this metagame from Viability ranking in which Gengarite either wins or loses.

Primal Groudon- Gengar can use Dbond if predicted right
Mew- Most defensive mew's run U-Turn/Volt Switch. But because Mew is bulkier it can take a shadowball and hit with back with psychic. Or you can predict with Destiny Bond
Blissey- Wins vs blissey. If blissey has set up some calm minds and has shadowball Gengar loses then, but that's pretty rare
Skarmory- Switch in on a non predicted BB or Iron head and make sure skarmory is weakened. Gengar Wins
Suicune- Non boosted scalds barely miss the 2HKO. But a burn screws it over. either way you are trading 1 v 1 with perish song or if you can get the Dbond
Heatran- Blast you to helll. Unless you Dbond.
Ferrothorn- Gyro ball OHKOs, so gotta go for that Dbond
Hippodown- Earthquake OHKOs, Dbond again
Zapdos- Volt Switch out.

As you can see Gengarite is limited on the things it is supposed to kill without a predicted Dbond. Which is not the best trade, but it is a trade nonetheless. Doesn't push it towards Ban Worthy in my book.
 

Attachments

Reqs: http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=984ylk&s=9#.V-rChSQllS0

Baton Pass: BAN
The issue with Baton Pass is that is it one of the strongest archetypes in Mix and Mega, yet it can be pulled off rather easily compared to the likes of regular play styles. All one has to do use this strategy:

1. Find an opportunity
2. Set up with correct move
3. Pass to an -ate or Blazikenite sweeper

To combat Baton Pass you just have to prevent one of these 3 steps. For most teams, countering Mew is done by preventing step 1. These are methods such as offensive pressure with Mold Breaker Taunt Leads (or any user) or sheer offensive pressure through wall breakers. However, usually strategies like these end up failing due to something random like mew using U-Turn on Hoopa-U (lol) or offensive momentum shifts. After the offensive pressure is gone, Mew + recipient will win.

To stop Mew in step 2, using hard checks like dragon tail Primal Groudon or Mold Breaker Roar will work. Again, these counter plays can be stopped by Mew's own counter plays such as Taunt or Substitute. One of the most underrated methods is of stopping mew here is setting up a substitute. This prevents mew from going to step 3 since the recipient must tank a strong hit from something like Keldeo. To beat this, mew would have to carry defense boosting moves for either special or physical depending on the threat.

Step 3 has a huge number of counter plays. Primal Groudon is one of the best as it usually just beats the recipient 1v1, Blue Orb Skarmory can phase the recipient, Ditto can counter sweep, bulky Landorous-T and faster priority. Although stopping it this step usually results in a trade-off, Mew now has 1 less recipient for passing boosts and if this keeps up, eventually Mew will be the last one left, completely helpless.

Overall, the methods of beating Baton Pass are certainly plenty, but it requires overly careful team building to stop such a basic yet insanely effective threat which is not good for the meta. There is a feeling of unfairness when fighting baton pass since the strategy is so simple and hard to beat compared to the complicated strategy your own team is constructed upon.

Gengarite: DNB
Gengarite is a tool for teams to remove specific threats. This is not broken by any means because good Ubers based teams use synergy, pressure and check threats in a collective manner. Removing a single threat should not damage the overall structure of a team. Gengarite does not invalidate any play styles either. The team simply must take a collective effort to check Gengar and weary that it may not even be holding Gengarite.

Balance can still make solid teams that still function well even with the omnipresent threat of Shadow Tag. The meta will simply have to stop using extremely vulnerable Pokemon like Blissey and Clefable, or at least without pursuit. And this is by no means a bad thing, in any meta there will be unreliable Pokemon.

Moving onto Gengarite's impact on stall, the meta itself does not exist and if it does exist, it is bad. There are too may things that rip stall apart like Tough Claws Garchomp, Adaptability wall breakers (Terrakion/Keldeo), Hoopa-U, Swords Dance Primal Groudon, ect. It is not Gengar's fault that stall sucks.

Gengarite does not threaten offense at all. The best thing it can do is trap and kill something like Pixilate Entei and get killed right after, unless you carefully time a destiny bond. In fact, offense can usually safely assume it is always Pidgeotite.

Highlord, I'm pretty sure your whole segment on Gengarite Gengar was in response to my post, so I'll respond back.

Unless each Mon on a team has volturn, is ghost-type, or holds Shed Shell, then a team cannot collectively check Mega Gengar. You can use a pursuit trapper to kill off Gengar, but in order for you to do that, one of your Mons would have already had to bend over for Gengar first. And talking about good Ubers based teams... I was looking back in the forums at the Ubers suspect tests for Gengarite/STag today and it was interesting seeing many very good Ubers players explaining why Mega Gengar is and isn't bad for the Ubers. In the end, Mega Gengar was not banned, and the BIGGEST reason for that was to not go against the traditional Ubers mantra. See these posts for reference:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-xy-ubers-shadow-tag-suspect-test-stuck-in-the-middle-with-you.3519501/page-2#post-5792794
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-xy-ubers-gengarite-suspect-test-in-the-shadows-read-post-71.3513127/page-3#post-5621515
Mix and Mega shouldn't have the same doctrine that Ubers has. If something is "uncompetitive" here, then it should go.

It's also a noteworthy fact that Ubers even had a suspect test on Gengarite in the first place. Mega Gengar was close to being only available to use in AG. And the thing is, in Ubers, if anybody REALLY doesn't want one of their Mons to be trapped by a Mega Gengar, they could always make the small sacrifice of having no Leftovers in favor of holding Shed Shell. The Smogon set analyses for Blissey and Skarmory in Ubers actually RECOMMEND using Shed Shell, and for obvious reasons, in M&M, it would be fucking stupid to put Shed Shells on Skarm and Blissey.

I agree that balance is still a solid play style, but depending on the Gengarite Gengar set, core Mons of a balance team can be easily removed. From turn 41-47 of this tourney match I had yesterday, my Vaporeon was lured in then quickly killed by this perishtrap Gengar: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-446375509
Vapo was brought in as I expected that the Gengar was Pidgeotite, but it was actually Gengarite and I got sub+protect perishtrapped. Its also really convenient for Gengarite Gengars that the more common Pidgeotite Gengars have an accurate sleep move to abuse, so most people are pressured into bringing in sleep fodder or their bulky Sablenite Mon. And with sub-perishtrap, Gengarite Gengar gets a free kill on anything it lured in that it's faster than. Anyways, I'm pretty sure I have a solid balance team, and you can probably attest to that as well, as I've beat you in a tourney match with it and took a tourney with it.

Yeah stall is nonexistent in M&M now, but in February I did see a few stall teams. The fact that Blissey was considered possibly S rank in February should make you consider that a possibility. Half of the Mons that you said rip stall apart do have checks, and for the ones that don't, there is always room in a stall team for an espeeder/Ditto.

With Gengarite Gengar's speed, Perish Song and Destiny Bond, it can be threatening to offense as well as balance. Imo a max speed set with 252 HP EVs, Thunder, and (SludgeBomb/PainSplit/Substitute/Protect), can get you the best of both worlds when it comes to trapping and killing off targets.

Gengarite Gengar does nothing beneficial for the meta, it's just there as Mon for people to use when they want a simple, quick, and effective way to get rid of certain walls. For example: Keldeo can beat Blissey, but Blissey doesn't have to stay in and can just be switched out into a Mon that checks/counters the Keldeo like Audinite Kyurem, Lati@s, Red Orb Togekiss, or non-Aggronite Gyarados. "That's not good. Blissey shouldn't be able to switch out when I have my Keldeo in, because then I can't get rid of it :( ...Oh yeah... Gengarite is legal :)"
 
VR Update - Mew has been moved (back) up to S Rank. Mew is insanely versatile, and its Baton Pass set pushes it over the top. We all know how dangerous Pidgeotite Gengar is, but now that it has its own mega stone back it's even more dangerous, so that's moving to S Rank as well.

Sorry for the delay, my laptop charger broke
What about my Reuniclus nomination? :(
 
With Pidgeotite Gengar / Mega-Gengar being everywhere lately, I find the following set is a great check to it:

Meloetta @ Mewtwonite Y
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Psychic / Psyshock
- Focus Blast
- U-turn

Meloetta's great special bulk (158 post mega), immunity to ghost, neutrality to fighting & insomnia post mega makes it the perfect check to Pidgeotite Gengar and a capable check to Mega-Gengar (barring destiny bond). It hits pretty hard with a base 168 spa. The only downsides with using this over anything else is the sub-par speed (base 100) and terrible defense. You could probably run a mixed set with relic song considering Mewtwonite-Y gives an attack boost too.
 

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