Ladder Mix and Mega

Dark horses ?
Well... i love Shaymin.


Shaymin @ Cameruptite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 244 HP / 252 SpA / 12 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Air Slash
- Seed Flare
- Earth Power
- Synthesis

Even if it's typing isn't very good, Cameruptite gives Shaymin a not bad 100/130/130 bulk.
Air Slash and Earth Power are for type coverage and Synthesis for heal.
Seed Flare coupled with Sheer Force is just A-MA-ZING.
Yeah, i'm too bored to make some calcs.

Talking about Shaymin, can i, please, ask why is Shaymin-S banned ?

After mega-evolving, it can't abuse of Serene Grace anymore.
It also has worse defensive typing and less bulk than the classic Shaymin.
On the other hand, Shaymin-S has a nice dual STAB for Lucarionite shenanigans and is faster and stronger.
Why is that banned ?

Thanks for answers.
 
Alright, I'm satisfied with the results of the suspect.
And I have a definitive answer about Aerodactyl with Tyranitarite now.
...It's okay. Sandstorm is nice, but there are major threats it can't hurt too well.
Replays: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-448076278
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-448079524 (This features a really dunb Gengarite set...)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-448090495

I really like Toxic Spikes in this meta, given that few people even think about Poison types. Though the team I used does badly against Steel spam. I'm happy with the results of my team, though I should probably make it more defensive to take advantage of the Poison better.


Talking about Shaymin, can i, please, ask why is Shaymin-S banned ?

After mega-evolving, it can't abuse of Serene Grace anymore.
It also has worse defensive typing and less bulk than the classic Shaymin.
On the other hand, Shaymin-S has a nice dual STAB for Lucarionite shenanigans and is faster and stronger.
Why is that banned ?

Thanks for answers.
I'm not too sure myself. I think people were afraid of its power and speed. But I think we can suspect this alongside Mew and Zygarde, and have a pretty solid idea to kick off Sun/Moon with.
...Are we still going to use this thread when the transition comes along?
 

OLD GREGG (im back baby)

old gregg for life
a few dark horse sets

Magnezone @ Pinsirite
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Metal Sound
- Tri Attack
- Volt Switch
- Discharge

this is a decent set that can catch a few things off guard, namely pdon. tri attack does a good chunk too.


Bronzong @ Altarianite / Pinsirite
Ability: Heatproof / Levitate
Shiny: Yes
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Explosion
- Stealth Rock
- Trick Room

this is the ultimate tr lead in this meta. stab ate boosted explosion does loads of damage and lets you bring in a mon for free. thanks to good natural bulk, ability choices, and typing you can pick what you set up on, basically.


Volcanion @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Focus Blast
- Steam Eruption

even after mega still slow, but bulky and powerful. when it gets off a hit, it hurts.



Gyarados @ Aggronite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Aqua Tail
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Dragon Dance

idk if you'd call this a dark horse, but its def underrated. aqua tail does lots to blue orb skarm even before a dd. intimidate pre-mega and water/steel post mega gives it a couple of very popular mons to set up dd on. namely entei and zygarde.


thats all i got.
 

Squawkerz

Torchic is best mon
Speaking of Dark Horses, one of my favorite Pokemon to use is Latiasite Weezing.


Weezing @ Latiasite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Sludge Bomb
- Fire Blast
- Pain Split
Base Stats: 65/110/150/115/90/60
Featuring an amazing defensive type combined with it's ability, giving it only one weakness and five resistances and an immunity to Ground type moves. This Pokemon can stop Primal Groudon due to it's high physical defense and immunity to precipice blades.
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Weezing in Harsh Sunshine: 183-216 (54.7 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Weezing: 108-128 (32.3 - 38.3%) -- 97.7% chance to 3HKO
All while being able to potentially poison it with sludge bomb or being able to regain health.

It also beats common steel types, bar Blue Orb with Fire Blast and Will-O-Wisp.
Pinsirite Cobalion
0 Atk Aerilate burned Cobalion Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Weezing: 59-69 (17.6 - 20.6%) -- possible 5HKO
4 SpA Weezing Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion: 192-228 (59.4 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage

Though it does have problems, especially with Sablenite Mew4 SpA Weezing Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew: 60-72 (14.8 - 17.8%) -- possible 6HKO
0 SpA Mew Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Weezing: 144-170 (43.1 - 50.8%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO

Though it does struggle with a few top tier mons, Weezing is a pokemon that should never be underestimated
 
dark horses... ive mentioned aggronite garchomp before but nobody seemed to notice.

Garchomp (M) @ Aggronite
Ability: Rough Skin
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Dragon Claw
- Iron Head
- Rock Slide
- Stealth Rock

the moves and evs can be changed but this is what I use. good typing with a solid ability to back it up and decent stealth rock setter, but be careful about magic bounce. It works for me and its above average, so yeah.
 

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
So the month is over. I will say I am glad I was around to play MNM this time after missing it last time. Here are my thoughts:
Besides Baton Pass existing for the whole month before finally getting banned, this was awesome. A lot of variety out there. Sure, I just spammed espeed for 80% of my games and that was good enough for #9 early and #15 at the end, but I saw a lot of cool stuff.
(EDIT: OK should be top ten but this hax happened http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-448722563 and this as well http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-448863785. But this is only because baton pass isn't banned yet lol)
Aggronite Kyurem, Ditto, Blazikenite Togekiss, etc. Stall was decent but not dominant. I got all 3 reqs and I'm glad GoS was willing to try both unbans and bans. Can't wait for gen 7 to play more.
My teams:
First the ESpam Sample team (check the sample team thread)
http://pastebin.com/vpBu98w7 This was used during the baton pass suspect. It was op as shit. Lost four games total, three to hax, one to this red orb weezing guy with a lord squad but it got me to my end of the month high. Solid squad. Should be top ten as I said earlier.
http://pastebin.com/Cc6QczmT This team was used when I tried to find out if gengar was broken. The point is to trap skarm bliss or whatever walls and then sweep. It can probably be tweaked - I would consider Zygarde over togekiss or a different combination of coverage moves on gengar - but it was ok. Also run double edge feint weavile, way better than return quick attack.
See y'all in November for the Ladder!
~tsb
 
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(As I side note, I have talked about Aggronite Garchomp, and how amazing of a teammate it is.)
Well, this month is at an end. Let's do one last set of analyses, courtesy of the worst team I've used in this meta.

Landorus-Incarnate: You were actually good, I got to admit. Camperuptite hits hard, and takes hits to boot. It might be in an even more nebulous speed tier, but that doesn't matter when you can actually take damage. Like its other form, keep this away from Ice Beams. Now only if I predicted those darn Aggronite Gyaradoses better....

Electivire: With Metagrossite... the classic nub attracter is actually pretty okay. There's a bunch of contact coverage you can use (I would try to fit Fire Punch, and use Thunderpunch in this meta, personally), and Tough Claws patches Electivire's power AND speed issues right up. Just... don't expect to outspeed Gengar and friends soon.

Dialga: YOU. This is the big reason the team sucked. Not one good thing I could say about this.... There's a REASON you're unranked.

Rampardos: Also pretty bad. At least the Pinsirite set I used can catch people off guard. VERY allergic to Extremespeed, however. (I can now see the merit of Sablenite on this, however...)

Suicune: Alas, you are too passive. But you're great when you DO have a chance to set up. I recommend the Crocune set here, honestly. Sleep Talk is more useful than another attacking move... just don't get swept, yourself.

Mienshao: Weavile is better. But U-turn is nice anyways. Use Pinsirite on this for a decent speed tier. Not Altarianite like I did.

...And that's it. Of course, I didn't ladder with those teams on my main account; I used the team I was building since the very beginning for that. I still find Xerneas to be pretty stupid in terms of its power. and making Cobalion bulky turned out to be a nice idea after all. I'm super happy with my ending placement with this team (I could probably top, if I really made the effort), and all I have left to say is... see you all on the other side. Take care, and keep those that you treasure in your heart...
 
*sigh* I cant believe mix and mega is over already. it was so much fun and unlike some oms (metagamate) I didn't just get bored with it after a day. cant wait until sun and moon for one single reason. this as a perma ladder. that is the #1 reason I want sun and moon to hurry up. I found and used a lot of interesting sets, I found some I didn't deem worth mentioning (scizorite conkeldurr) and some that did seem worth it (aggronite garchomp) but overall, this om is just amazing in almost everyway. #banatespeed
 
This is definitely the OMotM I've played the most consistently, a lot of them I just sort of stop playing halfway through. Anyways, some things I've had fun with while playing (may or may not be viable, I'm only decent)

Gogoat: I used a bulk up set with Venusaurite that was ight. On my last MnM team it was probably my weakest member but it was still nice when it worked. Gogoat has good qualities in it's HP, Milk Drink, and Horn Leech but it's typing was just too bad even with Venusaurite. It might've been better with type changing stones like Aggronite.

Crobat: Zephyr has already mentioned the merits of Gyaradosite Crobat so I'm not gonna say much but it does have a lot of things going for it. Poison/Dark has only one weakness, and giving Crobat's base flying type no one really uses Ground on the first turn which keeps it relatively safe.

Gourgeist: Gourgeist is already known for using Aggronite, but I've had quite a bit of fun using Gyaradosite. Although not having as many resistances as Ghost/Steel, it does have fewer weaknesses, albeit that one Fairy weakness is pretty common. Gyaradosite let's Gourgeist Leech Seed and Will-O-Wisp almost anything and the dark typing gives it STAB on Foul Play which is useful. It's also pretty good at dealing with Primal-Groudon because of the Sunlight boost on Synthesis and not being weak to it's moves.

Rampardos: Blazikenite Rampardos was relatively good to me although I had to invest everything in Speed. I used a set of Protect, Stone Edge, Earthquake, and Hammer Arm. The speed boost negated Hammer Arm's speed drop, Earthquake is good as coverage and as an added bonus, Rampardos pre-mega can use Mold Breaker to destroy Latiasite Magnezone and Heatran. I never experimented with Head Smash, but I can only imagine it would've been nasty.

Omastar: Omastar was one of those Pokemon that didn't always work for me, but it was great when it did. I used Scizorite to get useable Rock Stab in Ancient Power, alongside Water Pulse and Icy Wind. It resists Aerilate too as a plus, which works great for Shell Smash.

Cradily: Tyranitarite Cradily is probably my favorite Dark Horse and one of the very first things I tried. Sand makes it a great special wall and having Storm Drain pre-mega was great for my sand team. Grass/Rock isn't an okay typing too both defensively and offensively, at least in my opinion.
 
thoughts on red orb mew?

Mew @ Red Orb
Ability: Synchronise
EVs: 252 Spa / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Skill Swap
- Flamethrower
- Nasty Plot
- Psyshock

Skill Swap for those pesky ferro switch ins, Psyshock to hit special walls a decent amount, and the other two are just personal preferences over Fire Blast/Overheat/CM
 
Why shaymin-sky and creeselia can't mega evolve?
I have some ideas but I'm not sure...
In the case of Cresselia, it was horribly overcentralizing and broken. It is thought that Shaymin-S would be the same, seeing as it's basically a better Pidgeotite Gengar (sacrifices beating Pixispeed for beating Sablenite Blissey+Speed+Bulk+Boosting+superior typing) but has at least 3 other potential sets and various lures to KO would-be answers, from Mold Breaker subseed to Healing Wish.
 
Some cool dark horse mons:

The Red Hood (Crobat) @ Red Orb
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Bomb
- Heat Wave
- Nasty Plot
- Giga Drain

This thing hits pretty hard, and has a good speed tier to boot, as well as 4x resisting pixilate espeed. The sp.atk isn't insane compared to the likes of red orb volcarona or victini, but it's much faster and has surprisingly good coverage, walled by pre-mega heatran though.


Crobat @ Lucarionite
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Roost
- Taunt/Defog/Toxic
- U-turn/Toxic

This thing is very very good. I used it on my main reqs team with great success. At 152 speed it's faster than everything aside from already fast diancite users such as Terrakion, and speed invested Deo-s.

As a lead it cleanly ohkos most offensive mons like gengar, latios, and Hoopa-U With some prior damage (such as u-turning out once, or 1 round of rocks) kills offensive base 100s like victini as well.

Brave bird nets a lot of 2hkos, such as sp.def mew and offensive pdon, and even frailer resists like thundurus. With taunt and u-turn it can get momentum off of defensive pokes like skarmory, and roost gives you more longevity. Defog and toxic are also perfectly viable moves, which help against more defensive teams.


Excadrill @ Diancite
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Rock Slide
- Protect

Also a pretty good cleaner/revenge killer.Hits 148 speed, which outruns the majority of the metagame, and can ohko most offensive mons to boot. Resists all forms of -atespeed, and beats most users pretty handily. This is the best moveset for anti-espeed, but other moves like swords dance and rapid spin are usable as well, nothing but earthquake is fully mandatory.


Scolipede @ Heracronite
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Pin Missile
- Poison Jab
- Earthquake
- Protect

This guy was decidedly meh. It's possible I just wasn't using the right moveset, but between rock slide, aqua tail, swords dance, and the listed moves it was hard to find room. Rarely ended up sweeping, as breaking something like skarmory or scizor is just impossible. Cool in theory though.


Diancie @ Cameruptite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Diamond Storm
- Moonblast
- Earth Power
- Trick Room

I really enjoyed using this. Diancie's movepool is perfect for abusing Sheer Force, and it can really punch holes in teams. You can also use a more defensive spread with stealth rocks over trick room, but it's not that bulky due to no lefties.
 
Some cool dark horse mons:

The Red Hood (Crobat) @ Red Orb
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Bomb
- Heat Wave
- Nasty Plot
- Giga Drain

This thing hits pretty hard, and has a good speed tier to boot, as well as 4x resisting pixilate espeed. The sp.atk isn't insane compared to the likes of red orb volcarona or victini, but it's much faster and has surprisingly good coverage, walled by pre-mega heatran though.


Crobat @ Lucarionite
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Roost
- Taunt/Defog/Toxic
- U-turn/Toxic

This thing is very very good. I used it on my main reqs team with great success. At 152 speed it's faster than everything aside from already fast diancite users such as Terrakion, and speed invested Deo-s.

As a lead it cleanly ohkos most offensive mons like gengar, latios, and Hoopa-U With some prior damage (such as u-turning out once, or 1 round of rocks) kills offensive base 100s like victini as well.

Brave bird nets a lot of 2hkos, such as sp.def mew and offensive pdon, and even frailer resists like thundurus. With taunt and u-turn it can get momentum off of defensive pokes like skarmory, and roost gives you more longevity. Defog and toxic are also perfectly viable moves, which help against more defensive teams.


Excadrill @ Diancite
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Rock Slide
- Protect

Also a pretty good cleaner/revenge killer.Hits 148 speed, which outruns the majority of the metagame, and can ohko most offensive mons to boot. Resists all forms of -atespeed, and beats most users pretty handily. This is the best moveset for anti-espeed, but other moves like swords dance and rapid spin are usable as well, nothing but earthquake is fully mandatory.


Scolipede @ Heracronite
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Pin Missile
- Poison Jab
- Earthquake
- Protect

This guy was decidedly meh. It's possible I just wasn't using the right moveset, but between rock slide, aqua tail, swords dance, and the listed moves it was hard to find room. Rarely ended up sweeping, as breaking something like skarmory or scizor is just impossible. Cool in theory though.


Diancie @ Cameruptite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Diamond Storm
- Moonblast
- Earth Power
- Trick Room

I really enjoyed using this. Diancie's movepool is perfect for abusing Sheer Force, and it can really punch holes in teams. You can also use a more defensive spread with stealth rocks over trick room, but it's not that bulky due to no lefties.
Hey! I like your dark horses but I have a couple of nitpicks and tips that can help you utilize your mons better. Your Red Orb Crobat is walled by Blue Orb Skarmory and Ferrothorn if they switch in, maybe slashing air slash or hidden power ground can help you beat or at least damage those two and possibly kill pre-mega Heatran. I'm also not 100% sure what energy ball is for since the most blue orb users outside of Ferrothorn or Skarmory are heavily damaged by sludge bomb, you can probably swap it out for one of the coverage moves I just mentioned. Secondly Diancite Excadrill is neutral to Glaciate extreme speed thus it doesn't resist all forms of atespeed, just the more common ones. Finally Diancite Excadrill doesn't beat Zygarde if it hasn't evolved with Altarianite or is Pinsirite.

252+ Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 208-246 (58.1 - 68.7%) -- Vs non mega
252+ Atk Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 182-216 (50.9 - 60.5%) -- Vs pinsirite

But even if Altarianite Zygarde has mega evolved, it does a ton to Excadrill leaving it very weak if not dead.

252+ Atk Pixilate Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 301-354 (83.3 - 98%) -- Obviously with boosts this kills.

I do see that you did say that Excadrill beats most atespeeders but it should be put out there that Zygarde does beat or at least seriously damage Diancite Excadrill. But overall, nice job and good luck with the ladder when it comes back in gen 7!
 
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I never got a chance to test this out, but Pidgeotite Jolteon could work decently as a flyingspeed check version of gengar it has worse coverage but more stab power, and sing from an event eevee--locked on hardy unfortunately, but it still outspeeds positive 131s and
252 SpA Jolteon Thunder vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 225-265 (65.9 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 211-250 (61.8 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Jolteon @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Hardy Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def
- Sing
- Thunder
- Shadow Ball/ Volt Switch
- Hidden Power [Ice]

It can tank a flying E-speed and KO Entie and Arcanine-- well dealing significant damage to zygarde with hidden power ice
252+ Atk Aerilate Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jolteon: 144-169 (53.1 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Jolteon Thunder vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Entei: 470-554 (126.6 - 149.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

If you are willing to forgo sing you can go modest for a damage boost or a timid nature to outspeed 140s and jolly(252+) Mega arcanine before jolteon mega evolves
252+ SpA Jolteon Thunder vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Entei: 516-608 (139 - 163.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Definitely not the best, if only because pixispeed is more common, but definitely has potential for dealing with alot of pinsirite users such as Entie, Arcnine, Coballion and gyrados.

I have some other sleep users of pidgeotite that are for the most part pretty mediocre.
Sceptile @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Grass Whistle
- Giga Drain
- Focus Blast
- Dragon Pulse

descent power, spectacular speed, but not standing up to any pinsirite users, or e-speed users, but sleep can be usefull-- verdict unless E-speed gets some kind of ban(not in favor) worthless

Rapidash @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 1 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 SpD
- Inferno
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Hypnosis
- Substitute

Rapidash unfortunatly has a terrible special move pool but it does get inferno, and hypnosis to punish primoridal sea switchins-- verdict not that great, much better fire types

Crobat @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Air Slash
- Sludge Bomb
- Heat Wave/U-turn
- Hypnosis

Really fast hypnosis that resists pixispeed simlar to gengar-- verdict viable replacement if you want to use mega gengar to trap things

Delphox @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Hypnosis
- Psyshock
- Signal Beam

slower but more powerful than mega gengar,
252 SpA Delphox Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 229-270 (67.1 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
and gets psyshock to hit a few things harder still resists pixispeed--verdict viable replacement if you want to use mega gengar but will struggle to actually KO the Espeed users as they all resist fire

Froslass (F) @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Pain Split
- Thunder
- Blizzard
- Sing

boltbeam coverage +sleep is perfect too bad it is 1hkoed by espeed and gengar hits harder--verdict not usefull barring meta shifts

Raichu @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sing
- Thunder
- Focus Blast
- Nasty Plot

simlar speed slightly lower power pre boost and checks flying speed instead--verdict situational but usefull to take advantage of sleep and a few notable things.
 
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Looking for a Pidgeotite user that's a replacement of Gengar? I think this set has been working for me so far, and it's the closest thing to Gengar I think.

Froslass @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Snow Cloak
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Sing
- Blizzard
- Thunder
- Substitute/Hex

Stats: 70 / 80 / 75 / 145 / 80 / 130

It doesn't have a sky high Special Attack compared to Gengar but STAB Blizzard hits hard enough. Also Boltbeam coverage is always nice. The only thing Gengar have over this is Fairy resistance, but overall, it's a good replacement if you want a Pidgeotite Gengar but your Gengar is already used for other stone (Gengarite possibly).

Also regarding Blazikenite user, here's the mon I find that has been working well.

Victini @ Blazikenite
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 252 Atk / 72 SpA / 184 Spe
Naughty Nature
- V-Create
- Bolt Strike
- Glaciate
- Protect

Stats: 100 / 140 / 110 / 120 / 110 / 120

Basically, after you Protect, you're at +1 Speed. Once you use V-Create, you drop your Speed, but you gain back to +1 at the end of the turn. Blazikenite + V-Create here effectively looks like a Close Combat, but x1.5 times stronger. 184 Speed here is needed to outspeed Adamant max Speed Landorus-T after +1 Speed, and 72 SpA gives Glaciate a 50% chance to 1HKO 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T after a Stealth Rock. If you can keep Rocks away, 100 / 110 Defenses makes it not being able to get 1HKO'd by Aerilate Entei's Extremespeed even after -1 Defense drop. Don't believe me?

252+ Atk Aerilate Entei (145 Atk) Extreme Speed vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Victini (110 Def) : 280-331 (82.1 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This kinda being countered by Pdon, but well, you always need something for that.
I know that this is nearly a month later but this is for anyone who stumbles upon this set come gen 7 ladder or w/e. Froslass can't have sing and hex at the same time.



Incompatible :/

Also if Froslass is running sing, you can't be shiny or have cursed body as your ability. Just as a heads up.
 

bp scrub

rub a dub dub one scrub in a tub
btw that victini isn't even really countered by pdon unless its like rest pdon with defense investment
252+ Atk Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon in Harsh Sunshine: 169-200 (41.8 - 49.5%) -- 24.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

it's not gonna beat it without prior damage but groudon gets chipped down really easily b/c no recovery
 

Imperator Romanum

formerly Grains of Salt
I'm going to quote a post by GrilledClawitzer from the UU Vr thread where he nommed Entei for S because I feel it applies here as well. He has put into words the reason why Entei is so extremely good and It's a very good read if you have 10 minutes.

This post isn't meant to change anything, but it's an excellent synopsis of why Sacred fire is so good as a stand alone aspect of Entei with in conjunction with -Atespeed makes for a really good pokemon. I do wish I was more articulate so I could explain the comparison to MnM better - but for now I'll just be an interesting point with some relevancy to Mix and Mega's Top dog... Get it? lmao.

Also ChrystalFalchion drop Mew to A - BP is banned.


"Now onto a nomination of my own that might be a bit controversial... I would like to nominate Sacred Fire Entei to S Rank. It is a really fearsome wallbreaker, and a stupid one at it. Sacred Fire is its main selling point, given its 50% burn chance, and it allows Entei to do a lot of things I really feel it shouldn't do. With Salamence's absence, its main checks are bulky Water types. But not all of them are good checks, and I'll illustrate here why:

Gyarados and offensive Mega Swampert disqualify themselves as good checks because they do not want to get burnt under any circumstance as it cripples them and keeps them from doing their job. Regular Swampert can come in on a Sacred Fire, but if the burn kicks in, it now has to choose between clicking Scald to weaken Entei and throwing Stealth Rock. Considering the second Sacred Fire won't put you into Torrent range unless you crit, Entei can also tank one of your Scalds so it can sacrifice its health to make sure your Swampert isn't much of an issue anymore throughout the game. Having to choose between SR and getting a kill mostly because of a burn is really, really stupid. But it's not just Swampert! Tentacruel suffers from much the same problem, and being unable to use a physically defensive Tentacruel to abuse a fire type doesn't seem all that fair. Considering you will likely need Tentacruel to spin and/or throw Toxic Spikes, it is imperative to run another Entei switch-in alongside it and decide on a case-by-case basis which one you'd like to fodder off to burn first.

Even the more defensively oriented water types do not appreciate Entei at all. Bulky Rest Mega Swampert as well as Suicune are both forced into a two turn sleep to regain their health and remove a burn, not only losing momentum but turning them into worse checks for other scary Pokémon such as Mamoswine or opposing Mega Swampert. On top of that, they're usually very clearly the Entei switch-in on a team, making it easy to double out on them, losing momentum guaranteed. Speaking of momentum, there's a water type that's all about gaining that: Alomomola. The reason anyone would use Alomomola is not only because it is a fantastic Mamoswine and Entei counter, but also because of its ability, Regenerator. Alomomola can throw up wishes and pass them with relative ease on many physical attackers because it can keep itself healthy thanks to its ability. Here's where Entei comes into play: if SR are up and it gets a burn on the first try, Alomomola will lose around 40% of its health on switch-in. Now the fish Wishes, loses at least another 27% of its health and faces a dilemma; should it pass the wish to a teammate, losing a significant portion of its own healthy in spite of Regenerator, or should it protect to keep itself healthy, losing momentum? If it chooses the former, additional physical wallbreakers as well as Flare Blitz are gonna have a field day with it if it tries switching in again. If it chooses the latter, it just lost momentum and gave a free turn to any Pokémon not afraid of its Scald/Toxic (and, if a player is gutsy enough, even Scald can't deter them). This fundamentally undermines the whole reason to run Alomomola, a Pokémon so bulky it should never even come close to fearing any physical fire type attack. The only truly "good" answer to Entei is likely Milotic, which can work with a burn due to its ability, Marvel Scale.

There aren't many non-Waters that cover Entei. The three that spring to mind are Arcanine, Chandelure and Snorlax. Arcanine and Chandelure both dislike Stealth Rock and fear Entei predicting their switch-ins and clicking Stone Edge whereas Snorlax does not appreciate the burn; a banded version with Facade can likely do damage unless Entei is paired with a ghost (in which case the burn screws it over) whereas the more common Curse version is forced into Rest, losing momentum much like Suicune. Both Flare Blitz and Stone Edge 3HKO Snorlax after Stealth Rock damage, while Extremespeed needs very little chip damage, leaving you at the mercy of Sleep Talk if you want to continue checking Entei.

So that covers Entei defensively, for the most part. How does it fare vs offense? If it did badly against offense, I wouldn't be bringing it up for S Rank, but there are a few key factors that make Entei scary. The first would be its switch-in opportunities. Offense has taken to running Pokémon such as Cleric Sylveon (which hits harder than Pixie Plate Whimsicott, by the way), mixed defense Bronzong or Calm Mind Cresselia, all of which cannot do much to Entei, barring Thunder Wave on Cresselia, and are mostly good for their ability to act as a pivot. Pokémon such as Doublade or Whimsicott have existed as glues on many different kinds of Offense builds for a long while, yet they can't do much back. The plus side is that if these Pokémon are the only ones Entei can come in on, it is easy to anticipate and double out to an Entei answer (or U-turn in Whimsicott's case). The downside is that a gutsy player might see this coming and just not switch out to Entei in the first place, so any player will have to gauge risk and reward carefully. Either way, there is no denying that Entei does get opportunities to click its STABs vs Offense and with Mega Aerodactyl being the typical fire resist, Sacred Fire gets to do work.

Entei's merit vs Offense does not solely lie in its ability to click Sacred Fire once, maybe twice a match, though. What makes it really shine here is a move it received in an event two generations back: Extremespeed. While this move forces us to run an Adamant nature, its usefulness makes up for it and then some. Whenever any Pokémon on offense sets up, they have to be careful not to take enough chip damage to be in range of Entei's Extremespeed or they risk getting revenge killed. Considering the frailty of most fast Pokémon, the ones priority is used for, getting some chip damage is usually not a tough task to fulfill. And with rocks up, maybe a layer of Spikes if you run those, softening up a team and cleaning up with Entei's extremespeed is very much achievable.

One of the things I mentioned a lot are Stealth Rock aiding Entei, but at the same time, is Entei not also weak to Stealth Rock? Indeed, and that is one of its few faults. Stealth Rock turns many would-be 2HKOs such as Celebi's +2 Psychic, BandApe's CC, or ScarfShao's HJK into OHKOs. Forcing Entei to take Rocks more than once opens up even more possibilities of beating it. Just the same, I think this fault is overexaggerated with Entei as it has a fantastic match-up against most Stealth Rock users by itself. SR Celebi does not take kind to any fire move. Mamoswine does not like running SR but also gets OHKO'd by Entei's Flare Blitz (even if Entei cannot switch in but I saw this match-up mostly when I lead Entei, and even Sash Mamo, a set which I believe to be extremely bad right now, fears a Sacred Fire burn). Cobalion, again, hates fire type moves. Offensive Nidoqueen risks getting OHKO'd by Flare Blitz, which is a 62.5% chance against the currently popular 128 hp 128 speed set. There is a slightly smaller chance to OHKO Empoleon, which has similar bulk but generally runs more hp. Swampert can throw rocks on Entei 1v1 but it has a hard time switching in, as illustrated above. Azelf usually only runs SR in its lead set, and it can get seriously screwed over by the burn as it won't get to knock something off or explode afterwards. Bronzong doesn't just lose vs Entei, it's a pretty much free switch-in for it. Forretress hates running SR but it's in a similar spot to Bronzong. Metagross loses to Fire moves and Entei can likely switch in once even if it clicked Earthquake (it needs a very high Earthquake roll for EQ + Bullet Punch to KO, if it even carries Bullet Punch). Gligar hates a burn and isn't particularly strong in the first place (and has to decide between defogging and SRing anyhow because running both never ends well). The only mons that can truly, reliably throw SR in the face of Entei are bulky Rest Mega Swampert suppoted by a cleric, and Diancie. And most of Diancie's viability comes from its ability to do just that: throw rocks on Entei while being a good Hydreigon check, with Heal Bell on top of it. I do not know how much Diancie's viability will change with Hydreigon gone but I am sure it will still retain an excellent niche due to Entei's presence alone. We have so many viable users of Stealth Rock, and not many of them appreciate Entei. While they can throw SR on other Pokémon, getting Entei in early can make sure it does massive damage before Rocks even become an issue.

Is Pursuit a good way of dealing with Entei, then? I do not think so. Neither Aerodactyl or Krookodile can come in for free against Entei. Aerodactyl's Pursuit does a pitiful 40%. Banded Krookodile fares better, doing at least 56%. That is, if Entei switches. If Stealth Rock are up, Entei will be at 75%. That means if it gets pursuited, it is not coming in again. Any and every user of Entei is aware of this. So you're playing a 50/50 here: is Entei staying on the Pursuit and burning you, or is it switching? Krookodile is one of the better offensive answers to Entei, but I reckon it is not because of Pursuit; I think the main selling factor here is Knock Off - which doesn't have many answers, either and has a decent chance to KO Entei after Rocks. However, that means Entei can switch out and return to be a terror (potentially because of Extremespeed) later on in the game.

Now to my last point, which would be Hydreigon: Hydreigon, in its Roost set, makes for a good Entei check on offense. Sacred Fire + Burn can still do up to 60% to it, making it possible for Entei to break through with Extremespeed / Flare Blitz next time (or stay in and get pp stalled), or for Hydreigon to fodder itself off by Dracoing Entei... which only has a 50% chance to OHKO Entei from full. If Hydreigon is choice-locked, it switches into Entei a grand total of once. That's not a bad accomplishment for an offense mon but Hydreigon is the biggest threat in the tier undoubtedly so wasting it like this is usually a bad compromise.

Sacred Fire will not always hit, being a 95% accuracy move. It will not always burn, the chance being 50%. However, you cannot play with this in mind; with such a high chance for great damage a burn, any player will have to consider these occuring and play accordingly. Entei has a very high reward vs any playstyle for very little risk and I find its flaws to be overexaggerated, the main one being Stealth Rock. Sure, the move is ubiquitous, but laying them down before Entei has already done its job is easier said than done. The same goes for forcing Entei out, especially without losing momentum and paving the way for a potential spin or defog. And yes, there are many offensive answers to Entei. Just the same, Entei can help against them as it possesses great priority. With so many great assets, I fail to see how Entei is not worthy of S Rank.

Edit: Forgot to mention SR Krook; until Entei knows its set (or it is the blatantly obvious rocker), it might try to play Purusit 50/50s so rocking on Entei itself takes a lot of guts. Krook itself does not want to switch into Entei."

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/oras-uu-viability-ranking-thread-v6.3580117/page-5#post-7015930

Thanks for reading, FYI

Mix and Mega got 210 000-240 000 plays (Depending on wether you count battle logs or not)
 
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Edit because changing posts:
Look, I'm going to be honest here- as good as GrilledClawitzer's post is, it's just not relevant. Unlike UU, we have actual answers, like Blue Orb Skarm/Ferro, Heatran, Pdon, and Water/Rockceus (or fire if you really hate burns ig). All three sets of these don't mind sacred fire, especially since the Arceus forms can run refresh. Entei doesn't hit as hard as it does in UU because it lacks a choice band, and it's much weaker relative to the metagame.
Also unlike UU, MGar can trap and remove Entei, so the Pursuit point isn't relevant despite Entei's new resistance?
Extreme speed is also far more relevant here, between entei's new typing and new ability, but this post doesn't mention that at all. Unlike UU, Sacred fire isn't Entei's main selling point, so a lot of this post seems misdirected.
I'm really not sure how this translates beyond the vague "Pokemon don't like being burned", which applies just as easily to, say, Ho-Oh or WoW Arcanine.
 
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Saying Mega Gengar kills it is also assuming it's not Pinsirite (or even Glalite, which can also work).
Oh, and I disagree with Mew dropping from S.
Mew is, and always has been, defined by far more than Baton Pass. The Pidgeotite set can definitely sweep or clean up, particularly with a Nasty Plot. (It can also use Hypnosis, too) Altarianite Mew can both pick off and wall threats. It has pretty much everything under its belt; good stats, fantastic movepool, and a type that can make dealing with those pesky Fighting types easier. We can't even call Psychic a bad type in this meta; Dark and Dragon has taken that mantle, thanks to the Fairy (and occasionally Ice) priority running around, and Terrakion and Keldeo being incredible threats despite being weak to Fairy (and Flying too, in Keldeo's case). It's also unlikely to see many Bug types either, due to Aerilate sweepers being very threatening, too (and, ironically, Entei itself). That just leaves Ghost types... which are pretty good...

...And can be perfectly negated by a Specially Defensive Gyaradosite set. See, an example such as this shows that Mew not only has no problem finding a variety of niches, but also DOMINATES them. OH, and did I mention Cresselia is also banned from holding Mega Stones? It didn't have half the movepool Mew did, and was a Psychic type. Mew's not as much as a defensive black hole (which is good, or else it would be banned in no time flat), but base 100 offenses at their base are not a bad starting point at all. So before you think that Mew isn't worthy of the titans, think about the coverage you have against it. And then think about what it can potentially do to you.

(I'll cover Entei later; I need another post for its Mix and Mega implications!)
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
i can respect entei rising to S. buut i still oppose. i think a lot of people tend to overestimate entei, and honestly, the only reason im actually considering the possibility of this, is due to its sacred fire, rather then priority spam itself.if entei didnt have sacred, id laugh at you for even considering raising it to S. entei has the SOLE niche of being able to burn its counters, while inflicting damage (technically speaking, wisp makes entei good too, but i still prefer howl myself) this gives entei a way of putting its counters on a very, very short leash, making them have to devote to staying alive, making it harder to switch in and stay in on entei. will o wisp is very helpful for primal seas pokemon, which lets them bypass the fear of sacred fire. what makes entei good ISNT priority alone, its priority with a method of pressuring the mons who tank the priority. this meta isnt so kind to priority users, due to the plethora of options who can actually take on priority spam, both offensive and defensive. and before anyone asks, gene had godlike coverage+power and lucario had an amazing fighting type alongside SD, yet again, priority NOT being the main focus point. i think you guys are honestly overhyping priority in this meta, assuming "priority in this meta=OMGOPBANPLZ420" which just isnt the case. priority is GOOD, but its far from THE BEST. and these mons are only noteworthy because they do something relivant OUTSIDE of spamming priority that makes them problematic.

there is a reason arcanine and zygarde are slowly losing niche in the meta, and its not because entei 1ups them. sacred is relivant, but its not THAT relivant. its because people finally realize that priority just doesnt get you THAT far in mix and mega due to common trends and bulk increase, and you need to be more creative with teambuilding. not saying they are "unviable" might i add, priority is still SUPER relivant in mnm, hence why arc and zyggy are still high on viability rankings. but its not like AAA, stabmons, BH, metagamiate, or other metas where priority rules with an iron fist. have some respect for this meta, and stop bundling it with them just because it has priority.
 
You do realize that MnM started trending towards bulkier teams because HO is flat-out unviable BECAUSE of Atespeed, correct? You COULD build a HO team that annihilates bulkier builds like Loppunite Mew, Charizardite X Gyarados, and Diancite Hoopa, and they'll all get at most one kill per game because they're cleanly OHKO'd by Atespeed. The only traditional boosting sweepers are ones that Atespeed allow to exist. If you try to scare out any of the bulkier Pokemon with one of the super terrifying Pokemon that MnM allows, they'll invariably run into an Entei or Arcanine and you then get forced out and get to deal with Altarianite Entei dropping Adamant base 155 Sacred Fires on your team. The closest I ever got to a regular HO team before I quit MnM was two Atespeeders (I rotated all three, since they all have different answers, though some of Entei's and Zygarde's overlap) and Blazikenite Metagross after it was unbanned.

Like I said last month, I was running Loppunite Mew, and every team that didn't have Atespeed got swept. The speed, power, and bulk are too much for traditional teambuilding, but as I started climbing higher on the ladder and Atespeed grew more popular (as it should, it's the single best archetype you can put on your team in MnM outside of Primal Groudon), Mew stopped doing any work. Not stopped sweeping teams unopposed, it stopped getting KOs period.

Frankly, all three Atespeeders deserve S. Zygarde has the best bulk and best boosting move, Arcanine has the best coverage, letting it beat Blue Orbers that wall the other two Atespeeders, and Entei has the most powerful Atespeed and Sacred Fire, but right now this conversation is about Entei and it never should have dropped from S in the first place.
 
You do realize that MnM started trending towards bulkier teams because HO is flat-out unviable BECAUSE of Atespeed, correct? You COULD build a HO team that annihilates bulkier builds like Loppunite Mew, Charizardite X Gyarados, and Diancite Hoopa, and they'll all get at most one kill per game because they're cleanly OHKO'd by Atespeed. The only traditional boosting sweepers are ones that Atespeed allow to exist. If you try to scare out any of the bulkier Pokemon with one of the super terrifying Pokemon that MnM allows, they'll invariably run into an Entei or Arcanine and you then get forced out and get to deal with Altarianite Entei dropping Adamant base 155 Sacred Fires on your team. The closest I ever got to a regular HO team before I quit MnM was two Atespeeders (I rotated all three, since they all have different answers, though some of Entei's and Zygarde's overlap) and Blazikenite Metagross after it was unbanned.

Like I said last month, I was running Loppunite Mew, and every team that didn't have Atespeed got swept. The speed, power, and bulk are too much for traditional teambuilding, but as I started climbing higher on the ladder and Atespeed grew more popular (as it should, it's the single best archetype you can put on your team in MnM outside of Primal Groudon), Mew stopped doing any work. Not stopped sweeping teams unopposed, it stopped getting KOs period.

Frankly, all three Atespeeders deserve S. Zygarde has the best bulk and best boosting move, Arcanine has the best coverage, letting it beat Blue Orbers that wall the other two Atespeeders, and Entei has the most powerful Atespeed and Sacred Fire, but right now this conversation is about Entei and it never should have dropped from S in the first place.
I'd like to say that this isn't true. I have peaked the ladder and stayed regularly in the top five without ever touching balanced offence, PDon, or and -ate resist bulkier than my own Entei. Hyper offense is perfectly legitimate here, even when featuring -ate weak pokemon such as Keldeo. It's not as good as it is in other OMs- Its more comparable to OU- but its by no means unviable. In fact, I got better results form that than the bulky offense team I did make,although neither one did poorly. Obviously this is anecdotal at best, but saying you cant run it simply isn't true.
 
I'd like to say that this isn't true. I have peaked the ladder and stayed regularly in the top five without ever touching balanced offence, PDon, or and -ate resist bulkier than my own Entei. Hyper offense is perfectly legitimate here, even when featuring -ate weak pokemon such as Keldeo. It's not as good as it is in other OMs- Its more comparable to OU- but its by no means unviable. In fact, I got better results form that than the bulky offense team I did make,although neither one did poorly. Obviously this is anecdotal at best, but saying you cant run it simply isn't true.
I can definitely agree here. I made a Sticky Web/Bulky Offense team that did very well in tournaments and worked very well on the ladder. I had no ate-speeders/Primal Don/Blue Orb Steel. It worked well thanks to Hazard removal being difficult to pull off, as well as the constant pressure the combination of Red Orb Raikou and Altarianite Landorus provided, as well as their ability to handle -atespeeders(Raikou resists all -atespeeds, and Lando cannot be OHKO'd after intimidate drop and has the STAB combo to beat all of them). The team itself was pretty unconventional and admittedly heavily relied on Shuckle getting webs up. Ghostceus was also on the team as hazard removal, as well as something that could handle things like Mew and non-hypnosis Gengar without huge problems. Also served as a handy Burn spreader.


I've mentioned it before, and I'll say it again, Espeed/Espeeders doesn't/don't shape the meta, it adapts to it. Notice how each Espeeder rises and falls according to certain other 'mons getting more popular? Anyways, without their presence Bulky Offense wouldn't exist at all due to Terrak, Weavile, and other friends easily sweeping if it wasn't for its presence.
 

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