Ladder Mix and Mega

You say that like it's easy to widdle Dragonite, who sends their dragonite in random to sponge an attack? You wait until you can sweep, set up a dragon dance, mega evolve and then spam Extreme speed. What on offence even stops this monster? There are very few reliable answers to ALL ates. Skarmory doesn't want to take a +2 Close combat, Nor does it like the burns from sacred fire and Thunder punch still hurts. Any offensive team runs atleast on status inducer? Where are you getting that from, offence runs hazard and then it uses momentum to overpower the opponent, it doesn't run toxic/will-o-wisp because that would mean it would be balance. Not offence. If you run your skarmory on offence you lose momentum, losing momentum in offence is terrible.

Don't put TL;DR you're wrong, it's condescending and dissolves the dicsussion.

And Pidgeot Gengar is walled by Sablenite Blissey
I know it's condescending, because this is annoying. That was kinda the idea. However, it wasn't the right one. Sorry about that.

WoW totally fits onto offense, toxic doesn't. Not to mention, toxic can't stop a sweep anyways, so obviously I wasn't talking about that. Dnite doesn't want to run Tpunch, it's really mediocre at best. It doesn't get CC, and if you let it get to +2, you deserve to lose. It has superpower, if that's what you meant, but that basically ends your sweep.
 
May we take a moment to appreciate the power that is Pidgeotite Tornadus(-T)?
Tornadus-I:79/115/75/190/90/131 (more frail and slow, but hits harder)
Tornadus-T: 79/100/85/175/100/141 (bulkier and faster, but slightly not as powerful)
Top that with almost perfect coverage with never missing Hurricane and Focus Blast and 2 more coverage moves (including Dark Pulse, Grass Knot, Extrasensory, Heat Wave, Psychic, Sludge W/B). How is this not ranked, it looks amazing but I haven't tested it yet... YET!
 
OMOTM HYPE!!!!
Also can we ban baton pass chains? Here's a team that shows it at its worst:
la cucaracha (Scolipede) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Substitute
- Iron Defense
- Protect
- Baton Pass

fairy-ly bulky (Sylveon) @ Slowbronite
Ability: Cute Charm
EVs: 252 HP / 188 Def / 68 SpD
Bold Nature
- Wish
- Calm Mind
- Baton Pass
- Moonblast

Jester Hax (Smeargle) @ Banettite
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
- King's Shield
- Spore
- Quiver Dance
- Baton Pass

kitty (Espeon) @ Audinite
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
- Substitute
- Stored Power
- Dazzling Gleam
- Baton Pass

empoleon? (Vaporeon) @ Aggronite
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Scald
- Acid Armor
- Baton Pass
- Wish

Whirling Zapomatic (Zapdos) @ Sablenite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
- Baton Pass
- Thunderbolt
- Charge
- Roost

Keep in mind I made this is ten minutes. Use this and decide, my internet is really shabby right now so I can't test.
Also personally I have found victini harder to deal with than Dnite, and I think it's too soon to ban stuff.
Also a bug with bp is it passes the message of which stone you have
EDIT: 0-1 with the team, bs crit 1st turn wake vs sylveon by a random moldy user :/
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-246009513 1-1 now, this stuff is aids (and no guard is hype)
 
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I feel like the bug exists because the [[megastone]] message works like any "status message" like your stat boosts and ingrain, and as such it seems to pass on the message alone without any actual effects.
 
I was literally about to post that replay, too. Forget Dragonite, we need BP Clause now.

(Although the other play could have D-Bonded earlier, but still, virtually impossible to stop once it gets going.)
 
Not to be a douche, but I'd be more likely to take this seriously if you weren't always calling for a suspect of something, bruh. The ates are not only checkable, but COUNTERABLE, as I explained in a lengthy post a little while back. And not just by ates. Pixinite (by FAR the more popular of dragonites options) is HARD walled by poison types that are immune to ground (I.e., levitating or flying types), and a bunch of different steels can hard wall it depending on wether it chooses to use EQ or super power, on the defensive side, venusaurite skarm (my favorite physical wall/support) walls it like its absolutely nothing, and deals a solid chunk back w/ iron head. Manectite users can knock it back down to square one, then let something else come in to tank the hit or voltturn out or whatever. It's also incredibly prone to status; adamant can't outspeed timid pidgeotite gengar at +1, it's walled fairly hard by Pdon (then lava plume has a great chance to burn it and deals more than you'd expect and precipice blades really hurts it), etc.. It's not unstoppable. I've conceded on every other ban thus far (with some convincing), but this is completely unnecessary.

They're basically the megagross of OU. If you aren't prepared for it, it will straight up sweep your entire team, gg. But any decent player can prepare for it.


ok sorry about that, I forgot. And I didn't mean to complain, it was just a major bug I found, and it really needs to be fixed.
I'm sorry, but this is way wrong. -ates are counterable once you know the set, but dragonite requires 2 checks per team. Skarmory is obliterated by thunder punch, and considering Dnite needs nothing for its last slot, it can run it at little to no cost. Dnite needs 3 moves - DD, Espeed, and Earthquake - To absolutely destroy the metagame. Pixilate and Aerilate sets are both extremely effective and there is virtually no reason not to run them. Multiscale means it is incredibly good at setting up, and with roost it literally does have no counters.

No, its not like megagross in OU. It is WAY more overcentralizing and can obliterate any of its checks with the proper move, period.


Also, there should be a baton pass clause in the metagame, there is one in ubers iirc.
 
Despite the rule:

— Slaking and Regigigas may not hold any Mega Stones or Orbs. Like Kyurem-Black, they're very ridiculous with a large number of them.

I just fought a Mega Lopunnite-Regigigas.

Just thought I'd report this bug.
 
I'm sorry, but this is way wrong. -ates are counterable once you know the set, but dragonite requires 2 checks per team. Skarmory is obliterated by thunder punch, and considering Dnite needs nothing for its last slot, it can run it at little to no cost. Dnite needs 3 moves - DD, Espeed, and Earthquake - To absolutely destroy the metagame. Pixilate and Aerilate sets are both extremely effective and there is virtually no reason not to run them. Multiscale means it is incredibly good at setting up, and with roost it literally does have no counters.

No, its not like megagross in OU. It is WAY more overcentralizing and can obliterate any of its checks with the proper move, period.


Also, there should be a baton pass clause in the metagame, there is one in ubers iirc.
First of all, since this is easier to answer, pertaining to the metagross comment, I meant that it is a top tier offensive threat that will destroy entire teams if unchecked, just as megagross will. I'm not saying megagross is as centralizing, it's just a loose comparison.

Thunderpunch is a shaky answer, as overall it is vastly inferior to a number of things. You lose out on roost, which is really nice to have (though admittedly not necessary), and, as it is only super effective on 2 types, the coverage isn't even that helpful and leaves you much more open to being walled than other sets, it's really pretty weak, to be completely honest. Also, forget all that, I just ran some calcs; against physically defensive venusaurite Skarm, it only has a 32% chance to 2hko Skarm w/ Tpunch, and iron head is a guaranteed 2hko in return (0 Atk, obviously). That is your single most powerful option, and it still loses 68% of the time. Granted, that's not factoring rocks in on either side, so that does change it a bit. If dragonite switches in, takes stealth rock damage, and tanks a relatively weak attack, 20% is actually all it needs to be, then Skarm comes in and ohkos it every time. But wait, it has roost! Nope, it has Tpunch, so it doesn't have room.

Aside from that, anything w/ solid physical bulk that's not already weak to fairy can be stopped by a bunch of aggronite stuff. Gourgeist is a good abuser that 1., initially resists ground and therefore discourages EQ yet is only weak to it after mega evolving and resistant to everything else (bar Tpunch), (honestly though, it's not that great; there are better answers for sure.

Another very good answer that DOES work on offense is altarianite/Pinsirite arcanine. It has access to morning sun for recovery, WoW, and intimidate just to give it that extra bump. It forces Dnite to guess which set it is, as a single misprediction ends your dragonite. And entei is basically the exact same, except it lacks intimidate and morning sun. Latiosite victini (actually a pretty good set) walls it to no end, and basically a lot of fire types in general ruin it's day. But its biggest problem is its lack of versatility. While it is VERY good, it only does one thing, with slight variations. In MaM, you can't always say from the get go what will beat you. Just as gyarados is destroyed by rotom, yet mega gyarados slaughters rotom, type/ability changes can totally screw you over. It's not always apparent what you have to eliminate in order to sweep your opponent. Basically, mix and mega is a game of "who can better lure their opponent and smack them silly." And dragonite cannot do this. Period. In fact, it's very prone to it, due to its lack of options. Yes, it's incredible at what it does. No, it's not easy to surprise and kill. This makes it very easy to play around unless the dragonite user is significantly better.

I'd like to encourage more discussion around Dragonite

Here's a replay where my Dragonite easily beat Skarmory, how awesome Don is :]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-246046446
I have to get back to work, so I can't watch it, but something tells me that specific set wasn't actually well suited to taking it on. Slowbronite needs almost no investment in its defense to avoid the 2hko from anything, though it's not quite the best set. Venusaurite can almost always beat it, and is better overall.
 
Are people having trouble with Dragonite because Stealth Rock isn't up. Getting Stealth Rock is cruical to defeating Dragonite because it breaks it Multiscale. I have a cleric as in Blissey get Stealth Rock up Turn 1 so I usually don't have any problems with Dragonite. Dragonite also has some viable checks too. Dragonite is easily checked by Altarianite Lucario. 1 Extreme Speed and it is gone. A lot of my matches have my Pinsirite Dragonite getting defeated by Lucario or me doing that to my opponent. The only way to prevent this is to run Salamencite which is worse in stats boosts than Pinsirite. Altarianite Dragonite is also defeated by Altarianite Lucario.
Dragonite is also a Victim to Glalitite Weavile too which has no problem with any Dragonite sets.
 
Also thanks Tyrell D. Barnes. I have linked to your document in the OP. Your help is appreciated!
No problem. Glad I could help to at least ease the views.
Rather than manually colouring each cell, you should use custom number formatting, otherwise the cells won't filter correctly. In particular, you should:
  • Find and remove all the + and ± signs and the " kg" suffixes
  • Reset all the cell colours in cells E2:J51
  • Configure the following custom number format in cells E2:I51
    • [Red]+0;[Blue]0;±0
  • Configure the following custom number format in cells J2:J51
    • [Red]+General kg;[Blue]General kg;±0 kg
Then you can use a Filter View to filter and sort the data to your heart's content.

Alternatively my old post tries to summarise the table: http://www.smogon.com/forums/posts/6232219
Thanks. I'm currently attempting to remedy said cases. As for the coloring, I did so using conditional formatting, but now that I think about it, it really is unnecessary, since the stats won't be changing at any point in time in ORAS (unless by some miracle GF comes in with another stat alteration to Pokémon (like the shift into XY from BW) and/or Mega Stones/Orbs via software update). I'll post when finished.

EDIT: Ok. The sheets have been updated to include the filter views. Nothing much else changed. Also, xJownage, I cried at your avatar .gif. Treadmill fails are the funniest gym fails in my opinion.
 
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Are people having trouble with Dragonite because Stealth Rock isn't up. Getting Stealth Rock is cruical to defeating Dragonite because it breaks it Multiscale. I have a cleric as in Blissey get Stealth Rock up Turn 1 so I usually don't have any problems with Dragonite. Dragonite also has some viable checks too. Dragonite is easily checked by Altarianite Lucario. 1 Extreme Speed and it is gone. A lot of my matches have my Pinsirite Dragonite getting defeated by Lucario or me doing that to my opponent. The only way to prevent this is to run Salamencite which is worse in stats boosts than Pinsirite. Altarianite Dragonite is also defeated by Altarianite Lucario.
Dragonite is also a Victim to Glalitite Weavile too which has no problem with any Dragonite sets.
Any dragonites these sets check aren't good sets, because all of them should be running DD and -atespeed. The only thing weavile can do is fake out.

On further review, Altarianite Dragonite literally has no reliable counters/checks at +1 besides defensive mons like skarm. There are a select few and most of them are wrecked by a coverage move. It's kind of sad, basically 5 offensive mons on the viability ranking resist fairy in the first place.
 
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Any dragonites these sets check aren't good sets, because all of them should be running DD and -atespeed. The only thing weavile can do is fake out.
They are good sets. Can I explain. My Lucario has 306 Speed it outspeeds Dragonite. However this only works on Neutral Speed Dragonites if they have already Mega Evolved. Also nobody really gets a good chance to set up Dragon Dance on me because Stealth Rock is preventing Dragonite from Dragon Dancing safely. Stealth Rock prevents Dragonite from Dragon Dancing because it can actually be 1HKOed by SE moves.
The lack of Stealth Rock is what is causing Dragonite to become OP. If people adjust to the meta-game and run SR on their defensive pokemon Dragonite becomes an average ate user.
 
They are good sets. Can I explain. My Lucario has 306 Speed it outspeeds Dragonite. However this only works on Neutral Speed Dragonites if they have already Mega Evolved. Also nobody really gets a good chance to set up Dragon Dance on me because Stealth Rock is preventing Dragonite from Dragon Dancing safely. Stealth Rock prevents Dragonite from Dragon Dancing because it can actually be 1HKOed by SE moves.
The lack of Stealth Rock is what is causing Dragonite to become OP. If people adjust to the meta-game and run SR on their defensive pokemon Dragonite becomes an average ate user.
please no, Stealth Rock is not a given in this metagame. It is VERY easy for things to defog and the result is Dnite can get up a DD quickly. Is something really broken if everybody is relying on stealth rock and lucario, as well as STILL not letting it set up considering its quite bulky, in order to beat it? Yes, it is.
 
please no, Stealth Rock is not a given in this metagame. It is VERY easy for things to defog and the result is Dnite can get up a DD quickly. Is something really broken if everybody is relying on stealth rock and lucario, as well as STILL not letting it set up considering its quite bulky, in order to beat it? Yes, it is.
Defog is not that common unless if your running Latias or Latios. I click Stealth Rock Turn 1 almost every single battle. I rarely see Defog used against me. The reason is that Mix and Mega is an offensive meta in which switching is rare. People don't find as much value in getting rid of rocks. Plus most times when you would use Defog your pokemon would not be able to set it up or if it does it gets set up on or dies. Stealth Rock is more prone to be on something bulky like Sablenite/Slowbronite Blissey who can take almost any move straight to face. If set up on, no problem, it only turn 1 I can do something about it. Stealth Rock is still useful and is not dead in this meta. It is also day 1 of this meta so people are still adapting to the metagame.
Also I said Lucario is not the only check. We have Glalitite Weavile and anything that runs Glalitite. Any Fake Out user can do damage to Dragonite too. Dragonite is S Rank Material but is not neccesarily broken.

Nevermind... Apparently this one slid by... Point is that is lethal once it gets Dragon Dance Up.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-246099915
 
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Well unless your Stealth Rock Setter has Ampharosite or Gyaradosite, anything with Absolite, Sablenite or Diancite will bounce back your Stealth Rocks. And those latter 3 are far stronger and more common than the former 2.
 
I'm not /that/ into it yet, but if we saw more replays of any possible attempts at shutting down -atespeed Killernite (succeeded or failed), we could probably determine what works and what doesn't. I see most -ate 'nites carry Pixilate, etc.; so unless it's running Mold Breaker, I would think Unaware Quagsire makes a decent option. I don't know of any other solutions, though; the replay LeapsFrog posted was a pretty good attempt at shutting it down using Stealth Rock.

As far as any ideas I could pitch in to potentially stop this beast... to be fair, they sound gimmicky, but maybe one of MegaOni's sets could prove worthy on a 'mon with high Defense and Banettite spamming Iron Defense. Having Physically-Defensive Ferrothorn with Iron Barbs and (maybe) Rocky Helmet to check it when it's low on health might be a good idea, too; unless it's mixed and it runs Fire Blast alongside Fairyspeed and Earthquake.

(Also, I'm pretty much on the drawing board for this, but I'm making teams around Tyranitar - my fav.)

EDIT: Nevermind; just remembered Espeed has higher priority over Prankster.
 
Congratulations On OMOTM!!!!!

Now that the meta have many new users. I would like to post a set I've came up with(personal favorite mon).May come off as a gimmick, but I was able to use him to his advantages and set up/sweep on some mons.

Snorlax @ Banettite
Ability: Thick Fat
Happiness: 0
EVs: 208 HP / 188 Def / 112 SpD - 252 Atk / 144 Def / 112 Spdef
Impish Nature / Adamant Nature
- Curse
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Frustration

First! Let's look at it's stats upon mega evolving. 160/160/75/75/130/40. Okay, it may not be much to look at, or to be amazed by. But 160/75/130 is by no means bad(tho base 75Def in a ubers-base tier is not desirable.....not one bit)but when you factor in PRIORITY curse, he can boost both his Attack and Defense. Add in Rest, and he's effectively more difficult to take down. Sleep Talk is also affected by prankster. And doesn't make snorlax completely vulnerable or dead weight. This actually means, when Lax is asleep. He is actually more Deadlier than he is awake! :D Priority sleep talk is awesome, because you still have priority Curse(still boosting Atk&Def) and an STAB priority Move in the form of Frustration(ive tried Facade, but that's not really reliable). Attacking or boosting before the opponent. Base 160 Attack is Tremendous when coupled with 160HP and 130Sdef. Thanks to that, you don't necessary have to invest much if not at all, in Lax's attack(same applies to Health) and focus a bit more on defense. Now the Ev spread. IMHO, Lax in an offensive meta like this, should be bulky all-around. Since it's not outspeeding anything at all. Anyways, 208evs in health is to just help push its bulk a bit more(helps with tanking unSTAB SE hits). 112evs in Sdef to tank some pretty strong Special attackers(I'll also show in calcs), 188evs in Def to patch it up a bit. And continue to use curse. In fact, once it reaches beyond 2x(not to hard for snorlax)it can potentially, or just flat out overwhelm some top-tier/prominent threats. Such as, Entei, Dnite, Kyurem, Weavile, Noviern(forgot how to spell), Landorus-T(some variants or depending on the set), Red orb Victini etc. and laughs at most CM sweepers. It should avoid Fighting types(obviously) at all cost and absolutely needs Ghost gone. Even special variants. But once it's at 6x, it can comfortable tank some Fighting hits(physically ofc). Time for Calcs!


+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Dragonite Frustration vs. +2 208 HP / 188+ Def Snorlax: 205-243 (39.9 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Superpower vs. +2 208 HP / 188+ Def Snorlax: 248-292 (48.3 - 56.9%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO just if Dnite choose to run Superpower on Altaranite variant.

252+ Atk Victini V-create vs. +2 208 HP / 188+ Def Snorlax in Harsh Sunshine: 225-265 (43.8 - 51.6%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO.

252+ SpA Pixilate Noivern Boomburst vs. 208 HP / 112 SpD Snorlax: 247-292 (48.1 - 56.9%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO.


252+ Atk Landorus-T Superpower vs. +2 208 HP / 188+ Def Snorlax: 306-360 (59.6 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO mewX Lando. Not saying much, but can can rest up and continue to set up. That's if it's not packing SD.
You're probably wondering, why am I calculating +2? Well, that's because snorlax usually force out the pokemon, especially if it can't or isn't hitting it hard enough. With that in mind, it's guaranteed to get curse up first turn. When the opponent relies he/she can't do jack squat to Lax. They'll switch to an appropriate pokemon that can try and overwhelm me. During the switch, I use curse. Then that following turn, I use curse again, now I'm at 2.5x(I wanted to calc 2.5x since most of the time, I'm boosting up to 2.5x or more if the opponents decides not to switch).More coming soon!

EDIT: How does Aggronite Dnite sound? It has Twave, Roost, Dtail, even Iron head for STAB. ParaShuffle anyone? 91/145/120 defensively is good too. ;)

EDIT 2: also, Lax hate taunt (obviously)
 
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