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Ladder Mix and Mega

OrdA said:
Yeah, Venusaurite might work a bit better defensively since it gives good stats. My Skarmory set was made with Magic Bounce users in mind, so I expected Spikes / toxic / Whirlwind / Taunt / etc. to be a deadweight momentum sink. Instead, I went for a defensive SD set (I still wanna wall stuff, so offensive SD doesn't sound good). With the +50 base atk boost from blue orb, brave bird actually threatens quite a bit. Due to the low base hp (65), brave birding and then getting forced out can get you into some problems though.


I agree with the statement, but have to reverse the examples. I'd suggest something more along the lines of a red orb user to switch into Victini; resisting v-create in heavy sunlight can be good enough (i.e. Hippowdon), but what I'm really scared of with my blue orb users is a burn from will-o-wisp. And that, red orb prevents due to making me a fire type.
Manaphy is something that you just have to find out what coverage it lacks. They have to skip either Ice beam or Energy ball if they want to have coverage for red orb users (Ground is preferred, imo, since it's the only weakness of red orb Groudon / Hippowdon and red orb removes most ground immunities as it replaces typing and ability).

It gets great speed, but its attacks have low base power (80-90). Basically what Manaphy needs is a setup opportunity that doesn't chunk it too much.
In my experience, the most likely way to stop a manaphy sweep is having either two Espeed users or a faster check already evolved.

Edit: Manaphy in this format lacks both Rain, Rest and Leftovers. I say stall can beat it if they guess the missing coverage, but they'll probably lose a mon or three in the process. Well, at least it's not usually 6-0'ed by it in team preview like in OU (rain rest set vs no Gothitelle stall), due to red orb being far more viable than water absorb users [forcing 3 attacks Manaphy since mono water coverage is terrible here].
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IIRC, Will-O-Wisp fails under Primordial Sea.
 
Old_Gregg said:
At the risk of being redundant, once again..
Howl is viable on Entei and Arcanine.
Yes it's only +1 attack, but that isn't exactly anything to sneeze at considering the fact that at +1 Dnite was extremely threatening because of ate speed. Arcanine and Entei both run ate speed so they don't really need +1 speed to blow through teams once they have a proper opportunity.
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I've tried howl entei, and it's honestly pretty underwhelming. It's a rather poor sweeper overall, since it's incapable of boosting speed and will therefore always be outsped by jolly Lucario (it has to run adamant to know Espeed), and it lacks the power of dragonite to make up for only boosting it by one stage. It's attack, while decent, isn't really that high. Arcanine is honestly probably better for a sweeper, as it has intimidate (pre-mega), morning sun, and can run a Jolly nature (they have almost the same attack too). Frankly, I don't think arcanine would be much better tho, honestly.

Entei is better for just a hit and run sort of mon. It's best for landing revenge kills, or finishing off something that you weakened w/ volt switch/ u-turn by just smacking it w/ Espeed.
 
So, Hoopa and Hoopa-U are being released soon (Hoopa-U the undisputed superior here). If Hoopa-U doesn't end up being banned (in OU or here), what Mega Stones do you think it could viably run? What about Hoopa-C if Hoopa-U is banned?
 
If Hoopa Unbound isn't /immediately/ banned from OU, I can see the Lucarionite or Metagrossite Stones being good options for it, since its coverage options are pretty much solid (i.e. Hyperspace Fury, Zen Headbutt, Drain Punch, Ice Punch, and Gunk Shot). Sablenite can be used for its ability to run a decent Trick Room set with its subpar Speed. That Defense is saddening, though.

For Hoopa Confined, a Pidgeotite may work, but B.90 Speed isn't getting it very far, so Manectite may work in place of that with near half the SpA boost and more bulk and Speed for the trade-off. Intimidate can help its poor Defense somewhat, and access to Nasty Plot in combination with Hyperspace Hole and Shadow Ball and Focus Blast can make for a good mid- to late-game cleaner.

EDIT: ... Matter of fact, let's just focus on having fun with it as soon as it's released instead of waiting on the decision from the OU Council. That way, we at least get to go on a HOOPA-HYPE-I'M-SO-EXCITED-I'M-NOT-GONNA-CARE-ABOUT-ESPEED-LEVITRAN-NONE-OF-THAT-STUFF rampage with Hoopa Unbound before it's all said and done. (I'd better see Hoopa Unbound on every single team I battle... ._.) I kid, I kid... Or am I...?
 
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Some random stuff that I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned on Stall:

Aerodactyl @ Salamencite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 220 HP / 228 Def / 60 Spe
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Return
- Roost
- Taunt

Aerodactyl and Salamencite go hand-in-hand in this meta. Salamencite provides a wonderful +50 boost to defense and the perfect ability to go with it. The EVs can be adjusted, but that specific speed creep(base 110s post-mega) was the first thing that came to mind. There's probably better things to run as well, but again, this was the first thing that came to mind.


Mewtwo @ Mewtwonite X
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Low Kick
- Recover
- Will-O-Wisp
- Zen Headbutt

StallTwo still is good here, with a great speed tier and decent bulk. The real draw of this is that it fits on stall while still 2HKOing all Blissey variants even with no investment. It also checks a lot of other common threats, like Blue Orb Ferro(Gyro ball still hurts, but you can burn it) and Latiasite Heatran(It can burn you, but you still beat it even when burned.) For having such low bulk(by this meta's standards at least), you'll be surprised what it can take.


Gastrodon @ Venusaurite
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Scald
- Earth Power
- Toxic

This is the best answer to most No Guarders out there. Porygon-Z needs to run both Nasty Plot and Psyshock to beat it, it just outright stops Victini and Mew, and it even beats Pidgeotite Lucario!
252 SpA Lucario Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 178-210 (41.7 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
 
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Hoopa
Psychic.png
Ghost.png
Magician
80 / 110 / 60 / 150 / 130 / 70 (600 BST)
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720-u.png
Hoopa-Unbound
Psychic.png
Dark.png
Magician
80 / 160 / 60 / 170 / 130 / 80 (680 BST)
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Hoopa-U would want a stone that gives at least 21 speed, and Hoopa one with 31, to outspeed uninvested 100 base which is a sweep condition vs. a team of unevolved mons. (+30 and +40 are preferred for unevolved Keldeo). Fortunately, Absolite provides a useful mix of stats; or Diancite if you want Hoopa to outspeed those things after a +20 stone.
Unfortunately, 60 defense seems really weak to any sort of priority.
 
AnybodyAgrees said:
Some random stuff that I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned on Stall:
Gastrodon @ Venusaurite
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Scald
- Earth Power
- Toxic

This is the best answer to most No Guarders out there. Porygon-Z needs to run both Nasty Plot and Psyshock to beat it, it just outright stops Victini and Mew, and it even beats Pidgeotite Lucario!
252 SpA Lucario Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 178-210 (41.7 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
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What happens when Victini is running Energy Ball? :/ That's a decent set though, and stall that deals with specific threats works really well in this meta.
 
Thank you all so much for the support during this tough time for me. I would like you guys to know that I am not immediately LEAVING the community as a whole, but definitely backing away and making myself more of a casual player. I will remain on the council for now, and will probably update the viability rankings later this week in a joint effort. This isn't something I'm going to pour a lot of time into anymore, but I will definitely be around. I likely won't chat in the OM room very much anymore until I feel like I have broken my mental barrier with the computer screen and acting like a total dick.

Regardless, I will be around, and expect updates to the viability rankings this weekend!
 
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-247884982 (ignore my comments, I was just pretty annoyed)

This replay against a pretty good OM player showcases pretty well 3 of my sets as follwed: Aggronite Slowking, Slowbronite Latias, and Arceus-Fire.

slowking.gif

Slowking (M) @ Aggronite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Dragon Tail
- Thunder Wave
- Slack Off
Slowking is really good pre-mega and after mega. Regular Slowking can be switched int to take hits and recover with Regenerator, and while it has a worse typing, the fighting-type resistance is nice. After mega evolving, Slowking boasts a great Water/Steel typing. It's like Empleon with better stats, a better ability, AND reliable Recovery! Not to mention Thunder Wave, which really helps my team. Dragon Tail helps shuffle the foe's team members around (I use "hazard stack"), while Scald is Scald. Slowking is very bulky on the physical side. I'm too lazy to post calcs, but just play some battles with it, and you'll see.
latias.gif

Latias @ Slowbronite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
- Stored Power
- Calm Mind
- Roost
- Substitute
So Latias is needs some support, but if your opponent doesn't have a dark type, then this should be fairly easy to get a sweep. While Shell Armor may seem bad, it's really a huge Blessing because now Latias will never lose Calm Mind wars. It now has an amazing base 150 physical defense, and a small boost to special attack as well.

Unfortunately, it is weak to 2 of the -ates, but it can still live any attack provided they are at +0. It's also a good check to Heatran (unless offensive).
arceus-fire.gif

Arceus-Fire @ Flame Plate
Ability: Multitype
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
- Judgment
- Defog / Will-o-Wisp
- Perish Song
- Recover
Unlike Latias, this actually deals with -ates quite well. It's a good check to Entei, Lucario, and Arcanine, and can force them all out with Perish Song. Unlike Roar/Whirlwind, it isn't affected by Magic Bounce, and can even stop BP (I encountered one before). The amount of utility it has in this metagame is really good. If your team already has a hazard remover, then you can replace Defog with Will-o-Wisp.
One thing these three all have in common is reliable recovery. It's incredibly important because of how much power creep there is. Basically, from what I've encountered so far, if you don't heal after switching in, the most likely situation is you die. Additionally, without leftovers there is no passive recovery, and that hurts a lot of defensive pokes.

This meta is soooooo good and fun. Way too many possibilities.
 
Brawl MK said:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-247884982 (ignore my comments, I was just pretty annoyed)

This replay against a pretty good OM player showcases pretty well 3 of my sets as follwed: Aggronite Slowking, Slowbronite Latias, and Arceus-Fire.

slowking.gif

Slowking (M) @ Aggronite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Dragon Tail
- Thunder Wave
- Slack Off
Slowking is really good pre-mega and after mega. Regular Slowking can be switched int to take hits and recover with Regenerator, and while it has a worse typing, the fighting-type resistance is nice. After mega evolving, Slowking boasts a great Water/Steel typing. It's like Empleon with better stats, a better ability, AND reliable Recovery! Not to mention Thunder Wave, which really helps my team. Dragon Tail helps shuffle the foe's team members around (I use "hazard stack"), while Scald is Scald. Slowking is very bulky on the physical side. I'm too lazy to post calcs, but just play some battles with it, and you'll see.
latias.gif

Latias @ Slowbronite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
- Stored Power
- Calm Mind
- Roost
- Substitute
So Latias is needs some support, but if your opponent doesn't have a dark type, then this should be fairly easy to get a sweep. While Shell Armor may seem bad, it's really a huge Blessing because now Latias will never lose Calm Mind wars. It now has an amazing base 150 physical defense, and a small boost to special attack as well.

Unfortunately, it is weak to 2 of the -ates, but it can still live any attack provided they are at +0. It's also a good check to Heatran (unless offensive).
arceus-fire.gif

Arceus-Fire @ Flame Plate
Ability: Multitype
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
- Judgment
- Defog / Will-o-Wisp
- Perish Song
- Recover
Unlike Latias, this actually deals with -ates quite well. It's a good check to Entei, Lucario, and Arcanine, and can force them all out with Perish Song. Unlike Roar/Whirlwind, it isn't affected by Magic Bounce, and can even stop BP (I encountered one before). The amount of utility it has in this metagame is really good. If your team already has a hazard remover, then you can replace Defog with Will-o-Wisp.
One thing these three all have in common is reliable recovery. It's incredibly important because of how much power creep there is. Basically, from what I've encountered so far, if you don't heal after switching in, the most likely situation is you die. Additionally, without leftovers there is no passive recovery, and that hurts a lot of defensive pokes.

This meta is soooooo good and fun. Way too many possibilities.
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Thank you! Finally, someone appreciates aggronite slowking. I like this; pretty cool sets and stuff. They're really pretty creative- good job ^_^
 
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Scrafty @ Aerodactylite
Ability: Intimidate/Shed Skin (Hard to grab extra kills with that awful speed)
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Crunch
- Drain Punch
- Poison Jab

Get the -ators out of the way and ye. Tough Claws n' stuff
 
Well, that's a different issue.
Speed does change the same turn. Hence the instantly decreased damage of Gyro Ball by a megaevolving Metagross, and the increased damage of Electroball by a megaevolving Manectric.
Do you have a replay of the turn order bug happening?
 
I could be wrong but I was under the assumption that stat enhacncents take hold the turn after mevo. Now I'm curious to know which it is.

Edit**

Nvm I figured it out.

Taken from Bulbapedia:

"Performing Mega Evolution will not alter the turn order, so a Pokémon with a lower Speed than their opponent will still go after them on the one turn the Mega Evolution occurs, even if their Mega Evolution increases Speed and would otherwise cause them to go first. The opposite is also true for Pokémon who lose Speed from Mega Evolution, such as Garchomp. However, turn order will be determined normally on every turn afterwards. All other stat changes and type changes of a Mega Evolution will take effect immediately and damage calculation will proceed as usual".
 
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Little set from me:

Cobalion @ Aerodactylite
Ability: Justified
Evs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 Def
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Magnet rise
- Close Combat
- Iron Head

Very bulky, very annoying setup sweeper. Has 339 attack and tough claws, along with wonderful bulk that allows it to boost easily and tank -atespeeds like a champ. Magnet Rise is an amazing move for it, allowing it to set up on a forced switch for say - Lucarionite Excadrill. After testing it, I'm really liking how effective it is.

Excadrill @ Lucarionite
Ability: Mold Breaker
Evs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 Def
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Rapid Spin / Rock Slide
- Earthquake
- Iron Head

This is a POWERFUL wallbreaker, hitting a very large portion of the tier for an OHKO with Adaptability Earthquake. The set is self-explanitory, but Excadrill can set up SDs easily on common threats like Blissey, while its large HP gives it decent physical bulk after mega evolving. Mold Breaker pre-mega allows it free kills at times, or even a free turn to set up or slap something with a boosted earthquake. Rock Slide hits threats like Sablenite Zapdos that otherwise wall it.
 
xJownage said:
Little set from me:

Cobalion @ Aerodactylite
Ability: Justified
Evs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 Def
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Magnet rise
- Close Combat
- Iron Head

Very bulky, very annoying setup sweeper. Has 339 attack and tough claws, along with wonderful bulk that allows it to boost easily and tank -atespeeds like a champ. Magnet Rise is an amazing move for it, allowing it to set up on a forced switch for say - Lucarionite Excadrill. After testing it, I'm really liking how effective it is.

Excadrill @ Lucarionite
Ability: Mold Breaker
Evs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 Def
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Rapid Spin / Rock Slide
- Earthquake
- Iron Head

This is a POWERFUL wallbreaker, hitting a very large portion of the tier for an OHKO with Adaptability Earthquake. The set is self-explanitory, but Excadrill can set up SDs easily on common threats like Blissey, while its large HP gives it decent physical bulk after mega evolving. Mold Breaker pre-mega allows it free kills at times, or even a free turn to set up or slap something with a boosted earthquake. Rock Slide hits threats like Sablenite Zapdos that otherwise wall it.
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That's actually the exact Exca set that I use, and I can attest to its effectiveness. 110 Spe is by no means insane, but it's enough to do its job. The most appealing part is, in my oppinion, it's access to rapid spin. It also outspeeds and kills levitran w/ EQ pre-mega, and is surprisingly bulky, even on the special side. It's certainly not a wall, but it's got enough HP that it can tank a hit. And it's speed and typing make it a decent check to the ates- w/ rapid spin it loses to aerilate sets, but it can destroy all altarianite sets, as long as it gets in safely.

As for that cobalion set, I have never used it personally, but from my experience fighting it, it is very good. It kinda screwed me over when I forgot that it was steel/ fighting, as opposed to fighting/steel. It's kinda like offensive SD Skarm w/ higher base stats. It sits at a good speed tier, (I've said in the past that I think 120 is what you want to beat, but it's more like 125-ish), has a good typing, defensively and offensively, and it has a lot of unique tools to help it fill a number of roles. Lol, it even gets volt switch. It's attack star, while not insane, is not bad when you take its bulk into account. 91/149/92 is pretty sweet.

Dr. Phd. BJ, I'm not quite sure about this one just yet, but I see it too. It seems like a valid candidate. The biggest problem w/ it, is that just because you know it's Pdon, doesn't mean you have a clue what set its running. If you assume it's a support set, then it turns out that it's a double dance set, your basically screwed. Even against targets which it's not very effective on, Fire punch is a force at +2. It's definitely a candidate for at least A+, imo.

Slayer95 said:
Well, that's a different issue.
Speed does change the same turn. Hence the instantly decreased damage of Gyro Ball by a megaevolving Metagross, and the increased damage of Electroball by a megaevolving Manectric.
Do you have a replay of the turn order bug happening?
Click to expand...

No, I don't. I meant to save it but I forgot, sorry. I could do a battle w/ someone this afternoon to demonstrate it though, if you'd like. However, I can assure you that I should have outsped it. We were both at +0, and Lucarionite Exca sits at 110 Spe. I'm running max Spe/jolly, too.
 
Imo Remove Dragonite from the ratings entirely

Move Primal Groudon to S

Move Arceus-N to A+ for being extremely versatile and having the strongest and almost fastest Exteme speed, base 120 and Life orb
 
AllJokesAside said:
Imo Remove Dragonite from the ratings entirely

Move Primal Groudon to S

Move Arceus-N to A+ for being extremely versatile and having the strongest and almost fastest Exteme speed, base 120 and Life orb
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Actually, it does have the fastest, but it doesn't have the strongest, as the ates basically apply a Life Orb anyways.
 
I agree with Arceus-N being A+ - imho its the best Espeeder right now, due to its combination of set-up, speed, bulk, and reasonable power (especially with a boosting item). Normal-type Espeed kind of pales in comparison to Ice-, Flying- and Fairy-type Espeed, but it's still reasonably stronk and dank. Plus, as mentioned before, it has the fastest Espeed, especially since outside of Agility Lucario ( a bad set ) and Dragon Dance Zygarde ( a much, much more reasonable set ), no Espeeder can boost their speed (at least to my knowledge). Arceus-N can also run the legendary wallceus, although I don't know if that's viable in this tier.
 
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