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Ladder Mix and Mega

Zephyr Dragon Lord said:
...Are you telling us that there's a battle limit on getting the proper GXE? I personally don't agree with that. Getting 75% GXE is difficult enough as is; doing so in 25 battles locks people out that want to experiment around with certain teams or just get unlucky (And the reset button doesn't take away your GXE, so it's kind of meaningless).
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Because of how gxe is calculated, with, say, 100 games, you can have a gxe of 75% with a 66-34 or so win/lose (66% winrate). I don't like game limits myself, but the ladder is pre-inflated so it'd be difficult to run a regular suspect on it in the current state. There's a reason official tiers create new ladders for suspects.

There's a player with a 75.8 GXE and a 68.4 real winrate on the ladder right now, if you want proof.
 
Grains of Salt said:
The former are to prevent that you're familiar with a metagame where Genesect and Deoxys-S is present. Having SDG in your name means that your rank from february doesn't count and GXE just makes it so there's a certain skill gap to vote.

The latter, som lines of discussion is simply for me to add into the eventul suspect folder.

I'll be clear and honest with all of you, Mix and Mega is changing a bit. Not so much in terms of ban list but right now ChrystalFalchion has revamped the entire VR with the correct sprites, which is amazing since the last one had gotten corrupted, we've also gotten consistent slates that'll occour every couple of days during this month and then slow down when Mix and Mega isn't OMOTM. We've also got the nv who has redone the ENTIRE stones viability, it's not just a throphy VR but something I'm sure NV will take good care of, and it looks gorgeous. The picture overviewing the stones and their respective changes has also been re-done by Shavedbear removing some restricted stones.

We're in the middle of a complete rehaul of the ban list, with almost everything being discussed bar some of the most powerful legendaries. A lot of people confuse me unbanning/testing everything with me trying to change MnM, but it's simply me preparing the metagame for permanent ladder. And just to add my own opinion on Genesect, it's broken because it can go mixed. While Zygarde and Entei are purely physical Genesect can easily go mixed and bop conventional -ate checks, almost forcing you to run somehing purely for it it. That is what makes it broken, not shift gear or download(although this reall helps). And that brings me to the topic of -ates in general, since a lot of people believe -Ate Extreme Speed is broken and want a ban on that combination.

I can tell you, with 100% certainy that is never going to happen. Extreme speed isn't broken, it isn't broken on multiple pokemon so alone it would never get banned, all the other move bans have been because they were inherently uncompetitive. The type of moves that get banned for being broken are like, 200 BP perfect accuracy and +6 priority. Espeed isn't like that, it's a fairly weak move with priority, -it just works really well with Pixilate, Galilate(?) or Aerilate. And Ate isn't broken either, it isn't broken on Klingklang, Metagross or Cobalion and it certainly isn't broken on Zygarde or Entei. And the combination of the two aren't always broken, Gardevoirite Togekiss wouldn't be broken.

So let us get on with the suspect, 4

So this was good, the suspect went good. 10-5 in favour of banning Genesect, so Genesect is now banned and 14-3 in favour of not banning Deoxys-S mean it stays unbanned.

That was suspect 3.1 Fairytale over, next suspect will be literal heat ;)
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it's called refridgerate not galilate lol
And how can you call espeed, at 80 base power, weak? That's stronger than other amazing moves like u-turn. But if an atespeed ban isn't happening, i'll drop it.
 
lolnopound said:
Hey guys. Are you tired of having to think to get your reqs? Can't build a team? Well now there's a solution. With lolnopound's idiot proof team, you can get top 500 on the ladder just by clicking that e speed button. Winning has never been this easy!

http://pastebin.com/zwf2jPTy
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I feel like a properly used Ditto could handle that team quite easily. I don't think ate-speed isn't broken in Mix and Mega. It keeps the pokemon like Weavile, Keldeo, and Terrakion in check (as well as Ditto). To make a good team in Mix and Mega you need a counter (or counters) to ate-speed, but you don't need to run it. For example, here is the team I used to peak at number 1 (shortly) on the ladder last time Mix and Mega was OMOTM: http://pastebin.com/3Gxb96ii

IT HAS NO ESPEEDERS, but it does have Blue Orb Skarmory and Ditto. Here is the match that I peaked the ladder at: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-337020051
(I didn't end the month off at #1, A user named TeamHaymaker did at 1723 Elo. And when I tried to top TeamHaymaker by playing 1 more game, I lost a match... and because it was the last day that Mix and Mega was OMOTM, I just threw in the towel.)
 
Grains of Salt said:
And that brings me to the topic of -ates in general, since a lot of people believe -Ate Extreme Speed is broken and want a ban on that combination.

I can tell you, with 100% certainy that is never going to happen. Extreme speed isn't broken, it isn't broken on multiple pokemon so alone it would never get banned, all the other move bans have been because they were inherently uncompetitive. The type of moves that get banned for being broken are like, 200 BP perfect accuracy and +6 priority. Espeed isn't like that, it's a fairly weak move with priority, -it just works really well with Pixilate, Galilate(?) or Aerilate. And Ate isn't broken either, it isn't broken on Klingklang, Metagross or Cobalion and it certainly isn't broken on Zygarde or Entei. And the combination of the two aren't always broken, Gardevoirite Togekiss wouldn't be broken.
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The difference between all of the other ate stones vs pinsirite and altarianite is that none of them change your typing for stab. Entei is not scary with glalite nor salamencite because it just gains an extra coverage with no immediate fire power like pinsir/altaria stones.

There is no denying that you are bound to see one of the 3 (yes 3 ate speed users, the others are weak compared to them) 9 out of 10 times and not having one or preparing for them hurts your team alot. Maybe not broken but their presence Defines the metagame and teambuilding


Edit: also all the Espeeders can carry return. Recently got swept by howl+return entei. So espeed (which isnt low base power) isnt the only form of doing major damage
 
jamashawalker said:
The difference between all of the other ate stones vs pinsirite and altarianite is that none of them change your typing for stab. Entei is not scary with glalite nor salamencite because it just gains an extra coverage with no immediate fire power like pinsir/altaria stones.

There is no denying that you are bound to see one of the 3 (yes 3 ate speed users, the others are weak compared to them) 9 out of 10 times and not having one or preparing for them hurts your team alot. Maybe not broken but their presence Defines the metagame and teambuilding


Edit: also all the Espeeders can carry return. Recently got swept by howl+return entei. So espeed (which isnt low base power) isnt the only form of doing major damage
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if you're losing to espeeders BECAUSE they carry return then i'm sorry, you just aren't preparing for it. Entei checks and counters aren't hard to find; if you're getting swept by howl + espeed + return + sacred entei your team's just bad.

Having one is no substitute for preparing for them. If it's not broken then I don't see what you're trying to say with this post. Every metagame has threats, this meta has espeeders that are threats, so mix-and-mega has threats. I don't see why it being "omg extremespeed" makes the metagame less fun or competitive; they're just threats with checks and counters like everything else.
 
I'm not sure if anyone's really thought of this yet, but I thought that I'd point this out:

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Eelektross @ Sablenite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 Atk
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Volt Switch
- Flamethrower
- Giga Drain
- Drain Punch (or HP Ice, if Zygarde's giving you trouble)

Before anyone goes and dismisses this as a 'waste of a perfectly good slot', hear me out; Eelektross has potential in the meta, and while its stats are somewhat middling (especially for this particular metagame), the bulk provided by the Sablenite turns this thing into a rather fantastic slow pivot. Clocking in at the low, low Speed of 40 after IVs and nature, almost anything and their grandmother would move faster than this thing (or slower, if Trick Room is up). On one hand, this means it's going to get hit, but on the other hand you get the sudden shock of Magic Bounce (which could cost an unsuspecting foe the equivalent of two entire turns), the hit from VS that follows the foe's move, as well as both a scouting opportunity and a nice momentum gain in the boon of a free switch-in. In the hands of someone who can properly predict an enemy's move, this could be a real pain in the butt to deal with. Volt Switch is the crux of this set, turning it into the slow pivot it needs to be. Sadly, Ground and Grass 'mons give this thing all kinds of problems. So Flamethrower is there to help deal with the Grass, Steel, and Bug 'mons that it might otherwise have trouble with, and Giga Drain helps keep Eelektross healthy, particularly against Water and Ground types (if it doesn't get destroyed by EQ first). The last move is kind of a toss-up, though. If you want to reliably gain health from the monstrosity that is Blissey, Drain Punch is the way to go. However, HP Ice is also a legitimate move to run, as it can heavily punish a Lando-T or Zygarde if either tries to switch into a Volt Switch. Just keep this thing away from Primal Groudon, and it should serve you well.

I don't have much in the way of calcs, I've just been using it and it seems to work out pretty well for me.
 
Bisharp @ Aerodactylite
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Iron Head
- Brick Break
- Swords Dance

Pretty cool Bisharp set ive been using. Hits 300ish speed which is "better" than before and toughclaws boosts every move. At +2 pretty much everything dies even pink blobs.
 
Turn HP Ice to primary slash and your golden.

And put Night Slash instead of Brick Break. Dark / Steel already is great coverage and Night Slash is tons more reliable than Sucker Punch.

Alright. This is the post you have been waiting for. -Ate Extreme Speed. Is it broken? Is it not? What would the metagame be without it? Will G-Luke stop asking questions? All of these questions shall be answered now.

And please excuse my grammer I'm on my phone.

Extreme Speed. +2 priority. 80 base power. 8 PP. Makes contact.

If you have played a couple games in Mix and Mega, you have met, abused or lost to -ate abusers at some point. Extreme Speed in standard is usually utilized as a decently powerful non STAB revengekilling tool to get rid of threats simple Punches or Jets cannot accomplish. But in Mix and Mega, with the combination of -ate boosts + STAB, Espeed has become not only primier, but by far the most common way to sweep lategame. So much so that it has wrapped the entire metagame around its head, and several otherwise non Broken Pokemon have recieved the ban hammer due to the unrivalled skill in which they clean teams with the attack. But the big question is: Is it broken? Lets first take a look at the positives and negatives -ate speed brings to the table.

Positives

  • It allows one to check various dangerous sweepers that can potencially override the metagame.
  • As is in standard, its an excellent revengekilling tool
  • Provides many otherwise obscure Pokémon to shine in the metagame, which is always great.
  • They are generally walled by the same set of Pokemon
Now lets take a look at negatives.
  • The combination of -ate boost + STAB makes Extreme Speed a very powerul attack that can easily OHKO many threats due to raw power.
  • The raw power in combination with +2 priority making it almost always hit you before you can retaliate makes set up sweepers packing the move quite effective at defeating the entire metagame, barring a couple viable counters.
  • It is very centralising, usually requiring two dedicated counters for one Espeeder.
Let me elaborate on that last point. Extreme Speed is centralising to the point where running mons that would be good Pokemon are cut short by their liability against Espeed, and most teams MUST pack two to three dedicated teamslots to Espeed checks. Take in mind that most viable teams also pack one to two -ate Espeed abusers, and it quickly becomes easy to see that you have already lost 50% to 80% of your team just to utilizing / countering extreme speed abusers.

So by now you have noticed that I only mention STAB -ate Espeed. Thats because Extreme Speed in general isn't broken or centralising in anyway. Thats because its the combination of STAB + -ate is what pushes it over the edge. Another metagame is currently facing the same -ate issue. This metagame is Balanced Hackmons. Unfortunately it faces the common issue of complex bans. "Only STAB -ate is the issue, and no one wants a STAB + -ate ban in BH." But Balanced Hackmons aside, we dont want that in Mix and Mega as well. Only, that can easily be avoided if, Altarianite and Pinsirite are restricted in the metagame. Now I know what you are saying. "But -ate Espeeders arent the only Pokemon that use the stones! Just look at Noivern!" Which is true. Its unfair to universally ban a stone. "Why not ban Zygarde, Entei and Arcanine?" Then you would be banning six Pokemon for all of the same reasons, which otherwise wouldnt be banned at all. "Why not ban Espeed in general?" Espeed in general isnt bad, its actually healthy for the metagame, and non STAB -ate Espeed users arent that powerful either.

252+ Atk Aerilate Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 85-101 (24.9 - 29.6%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO

Salamencite vs Sablenite

252+ Atk Aerilate Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 144-169 (42.2 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Pinsirite vs Sablenite

The power difference is real between the two stones and the gap is even wider between Altarianite vs Gardevoirite. An argument could be that they provide more attack boosts, but Salamencite + the Flying typing makes a huge difference.

252+ Atk Aerilate Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 127-151 (37.2 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Salamencite + Flying typing vs Sablenite

So the attack boosts are an invalid counter-argument, as it is still much stronger (its lowest rolls dont come close to its highest rolls)

So what if this does come to pass and Altarianite and Pinsirite get banned? What will the metagame be like?

Well I immediately expect to see a MASSIVE increase in the stone Diancite, which's currently most viable user is Heatran (who is commonly used as a PixieSpeed counter). See that coincidence? Mons like Lucarionite Terrakion and Keldeo will also see a boost in usage, and Blue Orb steels will decrease. Mons that are rather less used in today's metagame gain a chance at life, such as Weavile, Bannetite Breloom etc as they are no longer burdened by a powerful SE Espeed on their backs. Diversity in this rather stagnant metagame would flow again, and the metagame would pretty much be alot heathlier.

So. Thats it. A reflection on -ate Espeed and its rather large impact on the metagame. Now please be entertained by maymays

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Honestly, I highly doubt removing espeed from the meta would be particularly healthy at all. While the argument of "broken thing keeping other broken things in check" isn't really valid, I'm still going to use it because it does sort of apply here. Without Espeed, we'd see a HUGE increase in the use of Terrakion and Weavile, both of which are already huge threats in the meta, capable of sweeping any team lacking the proper counters/checks to them, as well as seeing more speedy setup 'mons appear.
Espeed keeps a LOT of things in check that would otherwise simply demolish most of the meta, simply by existing, and isn't really unhealthy for the meta either. You don't HAVE to carry an Espeeder in order to succeed in MnM, and its checks are fairly universal and easy to slap on a team. Heck, you don't even have to carry checks for espeed either, if you play smart/your team is well built you can still pull out wins against Espeeders.

I don't really see too many Espeed "sweeps" that couldn't have been done by something that was naturally fast and well suited to cleaning up weakened teams. Entei can pick apart weakened teams, but struggles against Blue Orb steels, Rock types, and anything that's relatively bulky and can hit back with a coverage move, as well as lacking the ability to switch in safely when rocks are on the field. Zygarde has fewer problems with Steels, but has one major problem:Without multiple DDances(ie free turns) it's rather weak and it's very one-dimensional in what sets it can run. Both Zygarde and Entei are hardwalled by Skarmory, and can be handled by things like Altarianite Landorus(something I've been using a lot recently, and it handles both well due to intimidate and coverage).
 
Here's an EZPZ check to -ate Extreme Speed. You're welcome.

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Steelix @ Blue Orb
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Earthquake/Aqua Tail/Stone Edge
- Ice Fang
- filler (Thunder Fang/Earthquake)

Steelix's unparalleled combination of typing and sheer raw Defense lets it shrug off any type of Extreme Speed as if it were just a breeze. It can then counter Altarianite Extreme Speed users, all of whom carrying significantly large Speed stats, with a Super Effective STAB Gyro Ball . . . unless the user is Fire, Water, or Electric-type, of course.

Since the Fire-type Extreme Speeders are the most popular right now (being notably difficult to counter, for reasons including but not limited to an immunity to Burn), they gain an extra special focus with this set, with Blue Orb giving Steelix a much-welcome immunity to Fire-type attacks, and an entire move slot (or two) dedicated to exploiting Fire's weaknesses. STAB Earthquake does the most raw damage, being a guaranteed OHKO against any Fire/Fairy-type Extreme Speed user, but it has a noteworthy drawback of not touching Fire/Flying-types at all (which is why I personally use Pinsirite Entei--it's extremely easy to get a free turn off of people who think you are running the Altarianite set). Conversely, Stone Edge hits Fire/Flying-types the hardest of any of these moves, but its infamously shaky Accuracy will make you question its value against Pokémon without a double-weakness to Rock. Aqua Tail is like a happy middle ground between Earthquake and Stone Edge, receiving virtual STAB from Blue Orb and hitting all Fire-type Extreme Speeders with relative consistency.

Ice Fang has one specific purpose: hitting Zygarde, the most popular non-Fire type Extreme Speed user, when it isn't using Altarianite. STAB Earthquakes hurt Steelix a lot, though, so be ready with a backup plan in case it gets the 2HKO. Under no circumstances should you allow it to set up Dragon Dance, however.

The last slot I recommend filling with your coverage move of choice. If you put Stone Edge in the second slot, Earthquake can compliment it here; conversely, Thunder Fang can compliment Ice Fang by hitting physical Water and Flying types that might want to come out and play in the rain.

Just as this set checks Extreme Speed attackers (especially the Fire-type ones, whose best options are to hit it with something weaksauce like Bulldoze), this set can in and of itself be checked. It still takes x2 damage from Ground and Fighting, and an effective x3 damage from Water. Furthermore, its special bulk leaves a lot to be desired. Its worst nightmares are STAB Scald users and Pidgeotite Keldeo. Pair this set with a Pokemon that can soak special hits and resistances/immunity to its weaknesses. For an example:

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Giratina @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Ancient Power
- Calm Mind
- Pain Split

Poor(?) Giratina seems to have difficulty catching a break in this format, and I know what you're thinking: "I thought you said I needed a special wall! What gives with the physical defense? Ancient Power?!?" Patience, grasshopper. Clear your mind, and you will see that after one turn of boosting, its massive natural special bulk already outpaces anything its EVs and Nature could possibly give. This is handy if you switched it in against a Pidgeotite Hydro Pump (or, better yet, Focus Blast), as this gives Giratina ample time to set up. Should a (non-Fire type) physical attacker switch in, it will appreciate its added physical toughness for soaking a hit long enough to apply Will-O-Wisp. Keep boosting with Calm Mind, and do not be scared of sharing your pain with others should it threaten to become too much to bear. More Calm Mind, and if your opponent has not had the wisdom of simply asking Giratina nicely to leave, you are ready to strike.

Ancient Power . . . the Fire-type Pokemon immune to Will-O-Wisp were considered when selecting this move. Yes, Giratina has stronger attacks it can use against some of them, and even gets STAB on a couple of them, but Dragon, Ground, and Ghost-type attacks all have one problem in common: they all do 0 damage to Pokémon with certain types or even (in the case of Ground) Abilities. Rock-type moves have no such problem, and Fire-types need to be hit hard by whatever Giratina is attacking with, as they cannot be worn down by Will-O-Wisp, so this left Ancient Power as the best remaining move in Giratina's arsenal. If Power Points are a concern, you may opt for Dark Pulse instead, as even against most Fire-types, it will get you twice as far as Ancient Power would in the long run. That being said, with sufficient Calm Mind usage, you shouldn't have that much trouble obliterating your opponent with anything they don't have an immunity to.

Physical Fire-type attackers with proper coverage (e.g., Pixilate Extreme Speed users) give this set too much trouble too quickly, so this set, as alluded to earlier, pairs nicely with the above Steelix set. Ice, Ground, Ghost, and Dark attacks threaten either set with neutral or greater damage, however, so be sure to include answers to threatening examples of those elsewhere on your team.
 
OrdA said:
This set is somewhat similar to blue orb skarmory. That worked really well for a while at the beginning of MnM, except that Entei can still burn it with will-o-wisp and Lucario can break through with Close Combat.
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Should be noted that Skarmory always won in 1v1 scenario versus Entei, Zygarde and Lucario. If you pack wish support and a cleric Skarmory was fairly solid. Close combat doesn't Knock out Skarmory at +2 and you easily ko it with Brave Bird. Entei is still beaten even if you are burned because you can simply stall it out off Stone Edgars or Extreme Speed - and it doesn't run Howl + Will-o-Wisp. Never mind the fact that Stone Edge is doing very little to Skarmory. Only Dragonite and Arceus really won versus Skarmory. But Arceus N has plenty of checks/counters now because of Aggronite.

Lets discuss the viability rankings guys, more specifically the current slate. Entei is amazing rn, should be S!
 
Honestly these both really help me against the ate users:

torkoal.gif


Torkoal @ Latiasite
Ability: White Smoke
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Lava Plume
- Earth Power/Rock Slide
- Rapid Spin
- Clear Smog

Now, the first thing you'll ask is why Torkoal over Heatran. Heatran does indeed have a better typing, but Torkoal has a way to clean up any boostings the mons might set up. Rapid Spin is for keeping your field clean. Lava Plume is to burn, since 30% chance is not bad and you might as well do some damage. Earth Power is to deal with fire types, unless they are Pinsirite. Then it's up to you wether to substitute it with Rock Slide or switch out. 70/170/90 bulk is pretty nice in my opinion, and 115 Sp. Atk is a good base. Levitate remooves one weakness as well as possibly giving you one free turn, since Torkoal is rarelly seen in the meta.

blastoise.gif


Blastoise @ Aggronite
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rapid Spin/Roar
- Scald
- Aqua Ring/Flash Cannon
- Roar/Ice Beam/Avalanche

Well, agrronite is probably the best defensive stone. As the team I use it on has hazards (Who are helpful against Entei in both cases of Altarianite or Pinsirite) I decided to put Roar (which also removes boosting). Altarianite is very common in the meta so Dragon Tail would be useless. Scald is simply to burn out some few mons. Now here is the thing: Blastoise has Flash Cannon STAB now. It can hit hard any Altarianite user. Aqua Ring might be good to regen HP since now Lefties are gone. Rapid Spin to, again, remove any hazards on your side, just in case. Ice Beam to go against any Pinsirite mon (Other then Entei and Arcanine) and possible Ground-type problems (Even tho, Scald is stab so it would be better anyways. But Red Orb Hippowdon is a thing, so...). Avalanche would go better to the defensive set, as you are most centanly gonna get hit first anyways because priority. If your foe is a Pinsirite, then it's a Bye-Bye most certanly. Just remember that if you are going to use this, give Blastoise some atk IVs. The only problem is the Special Attackers, but overall it's a pretty good bulky mon (79/150/125) and Filter is a great ability.
 
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ChrystalFalchion said:
Some VR nominations for you guys to discuss. They will be implemented on Friday 9th September

entei.gif

Entei to S Rank

zygarde.gif

Zygarde to A+ / A Rank

arcanine.gif

Arcanine to A+ Rank
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Entei to S: Disagree
There hasn't been any major metagame changes in favor of Entei, and it wasn't S-Rank before. Blue Orb Skarmory is just too generically good, and it doesn't lack in other answers. Between PDon, Red Orb Raikou, Heatran and Water Arceus, it isn't sweeping many teams.
Zygarde to A+/A: Mostly Disagree
Zygarde in A is a freaking Joke, and Even A+ seems pushing it. While it's definitely not as amazing as Clefable in OU, its still the most punishing legal -atespeeder, and the one with the best coverage. Keep in S, and definitely not A.
Arcanine to A+: Agree
On one hand, Entei is usually the better option. It has better stats, Sacred Fire, and the same boosting move. On the other hand, Arcanine has Wild Charge, Close Combat, Intimidate premega, and recovery. All in all, that seems same rank worthy.
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Mew to A+ Rank


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Zoroark to B- / C Rank


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Cobalion to A+ Rank
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Mew to A+: Disagree
Mew's Baton Pass set is insanely stupid, and that's just one set. It has a ton more, and its sets are only limited by the metagame and your creativity. There are very few holes in teams that it can't at least partially patch, its insanely splashable, and completely unpredictable.

Zoroark to B-: Disagree
Zoroark is really frail, and its offensive stats aren't anything special either. It's typing is terrible, and it boosting is a joke: it doesn't get to do so on anything. Illusion+the ability to take on Mew means it isn't entirely useless, but please don't put it higher than C at the absolute maximum.

Cobalion to A+: Absolutely Agree
Cobalion is an offensive and defensive monster, and its past time people noticed. While there is plenty of counterplay, its difficult to revenge outside of Keldeo and it's never dead weight. The only real downside I can see is that it takes your Pinsirite, and that's almost always a good trade for a mon of this caliber.

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Giratina to Unranked / D Rank

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Arceus-Water to B+/A- rank


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Dialga to Unlisted / D Rank
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Giratina to D: Agree
Giratina's only niche is blocking common fighting types, and even then it doesn't do that incredibly. Loppunite means most of them can do damage anyway, and Terrakion can prevent it from rest stalling by 3HKOing it.
252 Atk Adaptability Lucarionite Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 166-196 (33 - 38.9%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery.
It does technically beat Thundurus as well, which is why I'm not quite willing to support unranked, but its a very niche mon.

Arceus Water to A-: Agree
It's a very bulky, rather strong -ate check that doesn't mind Sacred Fire overmuch and has recovery. Whats not to like? Furthermore, it doesn't take any megastones, so it doesn't greatly impact your team. While it does mean you can't use normal Arceus, that's much less of a downside than in standard, and it's typing is just as uncommon as in Ubers; the only other good bulky waters are Suicune and Slowbro.

Dialga to Unlisted: Agree
What does this thing do again? Set Stealth Rock, if they don't have a Keldeo/PDon/Terrakion/Magic Bouncer? No thanks.
garoninja said:
I found a bug(visual bug?), maybe it's not a bug, with Pressure(ability) i dont know if it affects on the first turn but, after some turns it showed my opponent had -3 pp with the move
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/mixandmega-431236713
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The reason for this is that OM's do not effect the client; we'll have to live with this.
InfernapeTropius11 said:
Next, Mega Gengar. Why was this unbanned again?? It still demolishes stall. Apparently the unban argument was ubers handles it and this is an ubers based om, but in ubers, if u have a mon weak to MegaGar, you can run Shed Shell on it. This isn't the case in mix and mega, bcz running Shed Shell means you aren't running a mega stone, which is worse against the entire rest of the meta. Now I know stall isn't the best playstyle, but that doesn't mean we have to completely invalidate it, as if you built a good team I could see some form of stall being very good. It also puts in work against balanced teams as it can remove their defensive backbone and basically mandates things like Shadow Ball Blissey, which you otherwise wouldn't run (unless ur rly weak to reg Gengar ig but that's beside the point). I don't see how it getting a free KO on so many things and invalidating an entire playstyle is healthy for the meta (and it can come in easily e.g. Red Orb Raikou used Volt Switch! *Mega Gengar KOs special wall* now raikou or other mons are free to sweep).
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I have to agree on the Mega Gengar score; the most common special wall, Blissey, basically functions as the blanket check for most teams, meaning that if it dies they can't replace it. With Gengar, that's as easy as a double switch, stalling out Toxic, or a pivot move; Raikou and Thundurus come to mind. Blissey can't really hurt it, either, so it can come in and do it again. Its not like Mega Gengar is weak to offense either; its still strong AF and resists pixispeed (actually its a pretty good pixispeed check for that reason).

Similarly, I'd like to get Baton Pass Mew looked at. While Gengar beats stall by Koing walls, Mew just keeps them from doing their jobs. Between Sablenite bulk, defense boosting moves, and the switches its set causes, it usually has no difficulty getting to +4 or +6- and then passing to a sweeper like Arcanine. Even offense, which carries -ate of its own, has difficulty revenging that, and for stall the lack of unaware makes it nigh impossible. You cant use Roar/Whirlwind because of Magic Bounce, and if they suspect Dragon Tail they can just pass to the pixispeeder early. Get this shit out.
 
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What would be a good stone for Baton Pass Mew? Sablenite or Absolite seem like the best options, as they give Magic Bounce. Sablenite gives more bulk, while Absolite gives more Speed. I can see the set being something like this with the Absolite:

Mew @ Absolite
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature / Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Nasty Plot / Swords Dance
- Baton Pass
- Psychic / Zen Headbutt

or Sablenite

Mew @ Sablenite
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 94 Def / 164 Spe
Calm Nature / Bold Nature
- Substitute
- Bulk Up / Calm Mind
- Baton Pass
- Zen Headbutt / Psychic

Speed EVs let you outrun uninvested Ampharosite Mew so you can pass before it Taunts you.
 
ChrystalFalchion said:
What would be a good stone for Baton Pass Mew? Sablenite or Absolite seem like the best options, as they give Magic Bounce. Sablenite gives more bulk, while Absolite gives more Speed. I can see the set being something like this with the Absolite:

Mew @ Absolite
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature / Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Nasty Plot / Swords Dance
- Baton Pass
- Psychic / Zen Headbutt

or Sablenite

Mew @ Sablenite
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 94 Def / 164 Spe
Calm Nature / Bold Nature
- Substitute
- Bulk Up / Calm Mind
- Baton Pass
- Zen Headbutt / Psychic

Speed EVs let you outrun uninvested Ampharosite Mew so you can pass before it Taunts you.
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From testing, I've become fond of amnesia, swords dance and recovery over psychic and sub.
Mew @ Sablenite
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 94 Def / 164 Spe
Calm Nature / Bold Nature
- Amnesia
- Swords Dance
- Baton Pass
- Softboiled
In my experience, subbing takes boosts away from attack, and you only have a limited number of turns before they crit you. There aren't that many strong physical setup mon's compared to the number of special setup sweepers, so it tends to work out.

As far as sucessful counter play goes, there's constant offensive pressure, haze, and Hoopa-U. There might be more, but that's all I've been able to find.
 
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