M&M Mix and Mega

I think the same ability Mega Stone Clause sounds really cool, and would certainly be interesting with Machamp and Golurk, but it looks like it hasn't been really reviewed since it was brought up, so I wanted to ask if there was any possibility of it getting implemented.

Just a simple "If X Pokemon will have the same ability before and after Mega Evolving, it can use any stone" kind of thing, will probably work.
 
I think the same ability Mega Stone Clause sounds really cool, and would certainly be interesting with Machamp and Golurk, but it looks like it hasn't been really reviewed since it was brought up, so I wanted to ask if there was any possibility of it getting implemented.

Just a simple "If X Pokemon will have the same ability before and after Mega Evolving, it can use any stone" kind of thing, will probably work.
I believe it was mentioned that this won't be implemented because it's a Complex ban. It does sound cool, but allowing Complex bans is generally a bad thing and a slippery slope leading to even more complex bans.
 
Quick question. When are we working around stopping this behemoth of a set?

Furry Bait (Zeraora) @ Mewtwonite X
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Plasma Fists
- Knock Off
- Bulk Up
 
Quick question. When are we working around stopping this behemoth of a set?

Furry Bait (Zeraora) @ Mewtwonite X
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Plasma Fists
- Knock Off
- Bulk Up
We have answers to that in the form of Extreme Speed, and just flat-out faster sweepers, not to mention there are a few tanks that just answer this. I doubt Mewtwonite X is even the best stone for Zeraora because it doesn't raise its Speed at all. Compared to something using Absolite, something with 105 base speed can just outspeed and take out this set. (Diancite gives even more leeway, too) And besides... Throat Chop is just better than Knock Off in this tier. I have no idea why the teambuilder marks it under other moves.... Most things in this tier are handleable due to the increases in both bulk and speed.... the average threat looks ridiculously good, thanks to this.
I still need to test Zeraora myself...
 
Quick question. When are we working around stopping this behemoth of a set?

Furry Bait (Zeraora) @ Mewtwonite X
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Plasma Fists
- Knock Off
- Bulk Up
Not any time soon. Mewtwonite X is a bad Mega Stone, it's outclassed by Lopunnite.

Zeraora's best Mega Stones are Pinsirite and Lopunnite probably, but even then, those aren't even too good on it.

If you need a couple of ways to beat Zeraora, Primal Groudon, as always, does well against its Lopunnite set. It's less effective against Pinsirite Zeraora, but if you run Overheat, or Fire type STAB, you can usually beat it.

Zygarde can also do very well with both Altarianite and Lucarionite sets. Altarianite easily deals with Lopunnite Zeraora. Lucarionite Zygarde can just Thousand Arrows away and win.

Might be more but I'm too tired to think and stuff.
 
Fun Sets:

Shaymin-Sky @ Diancite
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seed Flare
- Dazzling Gleam
- Air Slash
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Honestly, this ones more fun than anything.

It's frail as hell, but it works amazingly well as a revenge killer.

520 Speed. Must I say more?

Celebi @ Manectite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder Wave
- Leech Seed
- Healing Wish
- Psychic

Great for taking down non-ground type sweepers.


Thoughts?
 
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the real fun starts with this thing

Infernape @ Diancite
Ability: Blaze
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Close Combat
- Grass Knot
- Hidden Power [Ice]

76/164/31/164/31/168

broken mon. fast, like really fast which is good for if your team is slow. good power too. flare blitz + close combat is good. flare blitz good vs mag. cc on darkrai, random rock mons. grass knot is good vs stuff like pdon, certain pogre and hp ice for luc zyg, landot, rando rayquaza/salamence.


252 Atk Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 338-402 (92.8 - 110.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
mag hates flare blitz. infernape>mag, infernape for s rank t b h.

252 Atk Infernape Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyogre-Primal: 255-300 (74.7 - 87.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
whats a pogre switchin. n o n e. god mon.

4 SpA Infernape Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Groudon-Primal: 131-155 (32.4 - 38.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Infernape: 1158-1364 (395.2 - 465.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
i dont recommend staying in on pdon. just a thought. bring landot or something to deal with it.

4 SpA Infernape Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 280-332 (78.2 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Pixilate Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Infernape: 487-574 (166.2 - 195.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
if zyg is lucarionite it wont switchin and live to see any damage on you. if its alt, go landot again or something. alt zyg hurts infernape. just a bit.

252 Atk Infernape Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Darkrai: 428-506 (152.3 - 180%) -- guaranteed OHKO
blastoisinite darkrai beating it? in its dreams (bad dreams xD im hilarious.) diancite darkrais a problem, pretty sure it wins.

4 SpA Infernape Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 292-348 (91.5 - 109%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
beats any non-mega landot that switches in if you hp ice or flare blitz. if salamencite landot and you go in on it you just ohko with rocks. they just lose switching in on flare blitz

ok im done. i was tired and bored doing this its bad.
have fun with this thing.
 
how about that metagame
just gonna post some random sets/teams/anything that I've been using lately
Zygarde-Complete @ Leftovers
Ability: Power Construct
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Glare
- Rest
- Thousand Arrows
- Coil
big surprise, me talking about big zyg. this set has seen a lot of usage lately because glare is broken a solid support move that gives pokemon such as Darkrai, Landorus, Groudon-Primal and Terrakion much more opportunities to sweep

Gliscor @ Altarianite
Ability: Poison Heal
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 HP / 76 Atk / 68 SpD / 112 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Roost
- Earthquake
- Frustration
- Stealth Rock / Swords Dance
Weird niche mon that can be used over Altarianite Landorus-T for its recovery. Not the best mon but it make Gliscor somewhat relevant again. The EVs outpace max speed adamant ndm, can 2hko max hp ndm with eq, and lives a +2 attack from Blastoisinite Darkrai

Ho-Oh @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Toxic
- Earthquake
- Sacred Fire
A decent speed control option right now, able to outspeed Diancite Tapu Lele and slower. Very weak, but is great at picking off damaged threats.

Magearna @ Latiasite
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 248 HP / 248 Def / 12 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Thunderbolt
- Fleur Cannon
- Pain Split
the last two mons are more common but CM Lati Mage is an incredibly potent role compressor that checks Lando-T and Darkrai in one mon while not being a complete drain to momentum. Overall just a solid mon that takes advantage of a great deal of the metagame.

Buzzwole @ Sablenite
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- Ice Punch / Lunge
- Hammer Arm
- Roost
again, a more common pokemon in this meta, and one of the most solid defensive darkrai checks in the meta right now. Ice Punch allows buzzwole to hit Zygarde and doesn't allow Landorus in for free. Obviously this buzzwole isn't used to check atespeed like Aggronite is so if you use it be sure to have solid prep for -atespeed.

And here's two teams that I've made and have been used lately with success
Arceus-Water @ Splash Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 HP / 132 Def / 124 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Ice Beam
- Defog
- Recover
Buzzwole @ Sablenite
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- Ice Punch
- Hammer Arm
- Roost
Magearna @ Latiasite
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 248 HP / 248 Def / 12 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Thunderbolt
- Fleur Cannon
- Pain Split
Darkrai @ Blastoisinite
Ability: Bad Dreams
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Substitute
- Nasty Plot
- Sludge Bomb
Ho-Oh @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Toxic
- Earthquake
- Sacred Fire
Landorus-Therian (M) @ Altarianite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 108 Atk / 148 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Return
- Stealth Rock
- Swords Dance
This team was used in g2 of ssnl of Andy vs GL Volkner, and is a generally solid balance that highlights some of the mons I mentioned above. Overall this team struggles with checking Primal-Kyogre defensively, but is fairly solid otherwise.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7mixandmega-808988727

Zygarde-Complete @ Leftovers
Ability: Power Construct
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Glare
- Rest
- Coil
- Thousand Arrows
Marshadow @ Leftovers
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Close Combat
- Substitute
- Swagger
Arceus-Fairy @ Pixie Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 HP / 132 Def / 124 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Defog
- Earth Power
- Recover
Magearna @ Latiasite
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 248 HP / 248 Def / 12 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Pain Split
- Fleur Cannon
- Thunderbolt
Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 252 HP / 196 Def / 60 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Lava Plume
- Precipice Blades
- Thunder Wave
Ho-Oh @ Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 208 Atk / 52 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Recover
- Substitute
- Sacred Fire
This team was originally meant to just be a meme, but I ended up liking it a lot and it's turned out to be fairly potent. HUGE shoutout to Terracotta (sorry for tag) for the original idea that is so fucking OP, terra is the coolest user on ps tbh. But anyways back to the team, I wanted to use the idea terra had used and implement it with more viable Pokémon in the meta, and it turned out very nicely. The idea is to spread para early to open up opportunities for Marshadow, Lati Mage, or Ho-Oh to break.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7mixandmega-808539921

Uh anyways can we actually start discussing the meta in this thread when's the last time this hasn't just been a shitpost contest lol
 
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I'm happy to be working with everyone in this new capacity, and hope that we'll be able to make this metagame even better than it already is. I look forward to continuing to work with everyone willing to participate, and am thankful for all the support expressed; I'll do my best not to let you all down in any way.
Gliscor @ Altarianite
Ability: Poison Heal
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 HP / 76 Atk / 68 SpD / 112 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Roost
- Earthquake
- Frustration
- Stealth Rock / Swords Dance
Weird niche mon that can be used over Altarianite Landorus-T for its recovery. Not the best mon but it make Gliscor somewhat relevant again. The EVs outpace max speed adamant ndm, can 2hko max hp ndm with eq, and lives a +2 attack from Blastoisinite Darkrai


Arceus-Fairy @ Pixie Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 HP / 132 Def / 124 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Defog
- Earth Power
- Recover
I like a lot of these sets, honestly, but these two are some of the stuff that I've actually gone out and tried because of the post. There may be some further downsides that I've been missing so far, but honestly I've been really enjoying these two, although I did end up getting some use on defog Gliscor > Stealth rock. What's nice about them is that they're fairy type defoggers (who can thus check terrakion) without losing outright to common pokemon such as Primal groudon or magearna. Neither one is a perfect solution, and both approach the problem in similar ways, but the added ground-type damage is honestly just great (the dual fight / rock resist on gliscor is also handy on a mon that needs as many evs shifted to attack as it can get). I wouldn't say they're better than the standard sets, btu they will be superior options an many teams and I recommend anyone feeling overly weak to Terrakion + 9mage / pdon) give them a look when building or editing.
 

Funbot28

Porque yo soy tu veneno
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
I guess I will share some fun sets I have been using as well:


Mew @

Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Psychic / Psyshock
- Nasty Plot
- Roost

Shoutout to Chazm for showing me this set. I feel Manectite Mew is kinda falling off in the current metagame due to the rise of threats such as Darkrai, Lunala while also having a tendency of being worn down quickly via status and entry hazard damage. I appreciate this Mew set mainly thanks to it's wallbreaking capabilities while simultaneously being able to check other prominent offensive threats on the rise like Primal Kyogre, Sablenite Magearna, and Lopunnite Kartana. One might ask why Mew is used over Azelf, you commonly runs a similar set and has a higher wallbreaking power thanks to it's higher Special Attack and Speed, but Mew's increased bulk and access to reliable recovery enables it to consistently check the threats its intended to deal with. Not being able to run Pdon alongside it tho is kind of a let down.


Noivern @

Ability: Frisk
EVs: 112 HP / 252 SpA / 144 Spe
Timid Nature
- Boomburst
- Super Fang
- Taunt
- Roost

I find Noivern has a niche in the current meta as a speedy offensive threat that can lure in checks such as Magearna, Toxapex, and defensive Necrozma-DM with the combination of Super Fang + Taunt (albeit this is assuming its not facing the Sablenite versions of the former threats). While it can just spam powerful Boombursts to any other threats that try and take it on, outspeeding the likes of Blastoisinite Darkrai, offensive Arceus formes, and Lucarionite Terrakion. Being able to check Primal Groudon is also a godesend for most offensive teams while it also takes advantage of the decline of Blissey usage which really used to stop it in its tracks previously. Really cool mon especially when paired with threats that share common checks such as Tapu Lele and Darkrai.


Lunala @ Leftovers
Ability: Shadow Shield
EVs: 144 HP / 164 Def / 200 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Toxic
- Roost
- Moongeist Beam

Straight out of Ubers, I also feel that defensive Lunala can work extremely well in the Mix and Mega environment due to the great amount of role compression it fits in one slot, checking the likes of Terrakion, Tapu Lele, Primal Groudon, and even Landorus-T to an extent with its Shadow Shield up. This means it can provide its team a reliable Defog option since it can usually beat most of the common Stealth Rock users and annoy them by pressuring via status or its STAB moves. The decline of Blissey usage again helps it a lot although Darkrai can still be a pain.

Speaking of Darkrai, can a suspect test be talked about? The more I use it the more I can see the impact its having on the metagame, which may not be so positive imo. Yes it has checks that are common such as most Magearna variants and -atespeed, but Darkrai usually is paired with threats who share similar checks and can thus wear it's checks down (ie: Nature's Madness Tapu Lele, Primal Groudon, Cameruptite Magearna, etc..). The wallbreaking potentials of the Blastoisinite set combined with the ability to wreck offensive teams via the Diancite set really makes it hard to account for in most situations. Its coverage is rather perfect and can has utility options to deter checks through Taunt and Substitute. I have even seen sets such as Red Orb be used to success in beating Magearna, which is usually the sole check to Darkrai commonly run on teams without -atespeed. I would like to see others opinions on this as I am not 100% convinced on the idea myself, but felt it was still important to address.
 

Chazm

yeet
is a Pre-Contributor
I am personally against a Darkrai suspect: whilst it may have the pre-emptive damage to force out a ton of the metagame and a typing that isn't exactly penalizing to its defensive capabilities, I feel as if there are enough checks to it to warrant it staying in the metagame. Very strong mon that can require some innovation to beat if you don't want to slap Magearna on every team, but I believe it is healthy for the current metagame and promotes the offensive style that this meta has been pushing towards for a while.

I'll show off some things I've been using:

Magearna @ Cameruptite
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Flash Cannon
- Focus Blast
- Thunderbolt
- Trick Room

Against teams that have good balance breaking capabilities and want a compression capable of beating Psychics and the omnipresent Darkrai, this Magearna is possibly one of the best solutions to handling midgame. Against most teams, Focus Blast + Thunderbolt is capable of luring most common checks, heavily denting Primal Groudon, taking out Ho-oh after Stealth Rock, heavily denting previous balance staples such as Buzzwole, etc.

Magearna highly appreciates other breakers that can take care of its checks. For example, Primal Kyogre is capable of synergizing greatly with Magearna as it is an incredibly hard wallbreaker to tank on without a Red Orb, and applying pressure to said Red Orb user with a Blue Orb user like Primal Kyogre can be an incredible way to bring momentum into Magearna's hands. Landorus-Therian is also a great pairing, as it is capable of heavily damaging certain checks and potentially setting Stealth Rock for Magearna. This teambuilding composition can make for some excellent teams and I heavily encourage that you use this mon if you're struggling in an offensive matchup.

Landorus-Therian @ Salamencite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 168 Def / 88 Spe
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Toxic / U-turn
- Explosion
- Stealth Rock / Defog

Defensive Landorus is something I've been willing to try out for a while. It is capable of blanket checking the majority of the physical attackers in the meta thanks to an Aerilate boosted STAB Explosion, an attack that will OHKO most things that don't resist it. However, a defensive set seems quite awkward, as outside of this STAB attack, Landorus is fairly passive. This is where Toxic comes in, allowing for Landorus to punish its switchins and potentially open up a path for a Zygarde or Primal Groudon to clean up.

Strong wallbreakers like Primal Kyogre, Darkrai and Zygarde particularly pair well with this set, as they are able to deal with its checks very efficiently or appreicate Landorus inflicting status against their best checks. Landorus also appreciates Ice resists like Magearna and Entei as they happily deal with the things that can force Landorus out (with the exception of Arceus-Ground)

Zeraora @ Pinsirite
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Return
- Plasma Fists
- Fake Out / Bulk Up
- Taunt / Bulk Up

Whilst Pinsirite Zeraora is nothing new, running Fake Out on it may be. Despite often being dismissed as a ladder meme, I believe that Pinsirite Zeraora has a lot of potential as an anti-offense Pokemon (not Lopunnite, as far as I'm concerned that can go sit in the corner and think about how much better Diancite Terrakion is). Pinsirite Zeraora actually has a bunch of defensive roles it can combine into one too; for example, the typing gives it the capability of taking on threats like Pinsirite Magearna, Landorus-Therian and Metagross and proceeding to beat down on the opponent's team with a fairly powerful Aerilate boosted Return. Fake Out is no slouch offensively either, and can chip a dangerous target into range, such as Rock Polish Primal Groudon. This allows it to become an effective blanket check to rampaging setup sweepers, a role which many teams desire in the current meta.

Zeraora appreciates strong balance breakers that can abuse its lack of power, such as Darkrai and Lunala. Zeraora appreciates Darkrai in particular as it is capable of wearing in Magearna for it so that it becomes free to spam its Aerilate boosted moves.

Metagross @ Pinsirite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 40 Atk / 56 Def / 156 SpD / 4 Spe
Impish Nature
- Return
- Meteor Mash
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic

A product of role compression. Metagross is capable of answering a slew of Pokemon with this spread; particularly Altarianite Zygarde + Landorus-Therian, something no other mon is really capable of checking. Meteor Mash is here not only as Steel-STAB but for the Attack raise against Magic Bouncers, and despite the low chance of rising it helps significantly at setting SR against the likes of Blissey, Magearna and Mandibuzz. The spread also allows it to be a suitable resist to Tapu Lele.

This Metagross loves Fighting-type breakers like Terrakion, as they are capable of beating the many Bouncers that can switch in on Metagross. Other offensive Ground-types like Rock Polish Primal Groudon also appreciate Metagross for its capabilities to set Stealth Rock for the rest of the team so that Primal Groudon has the potential to sweep. Lunala is also an exceptional partner as it is capable of pressuring the three Magic Bouncers listed above. If you can fit it in the moveslots, Thunder is also a great lure for Mandibuzz, which can give Metagross the capability of heavily annoying the opponent midgame.


E: Lopunnite Kartana is not on the rise wtf, that's just me playing around with Pinsirite mainly
 
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Shadow (Zoroark) @ Diancite
Ability: Illusion
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Dark Pulse
- Sludge Bomb
- Flamethrower

Despite it being outclassed completely by Darkrai, Zoroark is still fun to use because Illusion is broken in M&M. You never lose your illusion in M&M after mega evolving even if you get hit. kek
 

Chazm

yeet
is a Pre-Contributor
Nightmares
There has been ongoing discussion in the community about Darkrai and its place in the metagame. With recent innovation for Darkrai at an all time high, with new techs such as Ice Beam Red Orb and Diancite Thunder, Darkrai has already cemented itself as one of the top threats in the metagame. However, the point at which prep for Darkrai has come is quite great in quantity and yet Darkrai is still finding ways to smash teams. As such, I believe the best course of action for the current metagame is to suspect Darkrai.

I'll put forward some ban and anti-ban countermeasures for the rest of the playerbase to interpret:
Issue 1: Lack of diversity in checks

Here is the main issue I have with Darkrai, and I'm fairly certain everyone has this problem as well. Darkrai, within its three sets, has no counters (it actually has Blue Orb variants of both capable of countering it, but they aren't too reliable switchins and are fairly easy to wear down). The sheer existence of Red Orb is capable of removing most of the offensive problems Darkrai has, albeit in the exchange of giving Darkrai a new set of checks - particularly mons like Primal Groudon and Entei. However, remove Red Orb from the fray, and Darkrai appears to have innocently lost its capability of muscling through the metagame. However, the issue with this is that there are only two reliable counters to Darkrai: Magearna and Buzzwole. This allows for Darkrai's team to adapt heavily to these counters, and it's already being seen with Magearna being targeted with certain techs, such as Nature's Madness Tapu Lele, Lunala, other Magearna, Noivern - the options that a Darkrai team has to pressure through Magearna is large enough so that it is incapable of lasting too long. Buzzwole is also highly exploitable - and unfortunately, is very capable of being lured by targets like Pinsirite Kartana, yet again giving Darkrai the lead. What this then comes to is the situation of revenge killers - particularly -atespeeders and faster Fighting-types like Terrakion. Unfortunately for them, the existence of the Diancite set completely invalidates most counterplay that doesn't involve -atespeed - and what makes it worse is that Diancite effectively has a free slot to experiment with - so you could find yourself lured by one and be unable to answer it due to its massive speed.

Issue 2: Initial power

Blastoisinite Darkrai has a few key features that pull it away from other breakers alike despite its only decent speed - its high initial power allows it to force out a lot of Pokemon that would otherwise be able to 1v1 them - such as support Arceus. This very high initial power from Dark Pulse on the Blastoisinite set effectively means it can drop coverage for Substitute, making it a really tough Pokemon to play around, and potentially allows it to fodder Pokemon like Blissey that would attempt to soft-check it. Substitute on Blastoisinite is also capable of forcing Focus Blast Magearna to potentially miss, which can mean game over for some Cameruptite variants. What also makes Substitute so good is its capability to allow Darkrai to fish for flinches if need be - due to Dark Pulse's high power, a flinch can often be game ending for certain Pokemon (i.e Sablenite Magearna), and if Substitute stays in tact, it can often bust the side strategy.

Issue 3: Coverage

Red Orb and Diancite sets are capable of utilizing coverage that can potentially lure their checks quite easily. For example, Focus Blast, Ice Beam, Thunder, and Sludge Bomb are all viable coverage moves and can be slotted into Diancite Darkrai to be able to deal with some of its best checks. Red Orb Darkrai is also capable of slotting Ice Beam and Sludge Bomb in its final coverage slot, capable of luring certain half-checks such as Entei and Zygarde, which when used over Thunderbolt can provide devastating results against some teams.

However, I do not believe Darkrai is entirely unhealthy for the metagame, and there are a lot of things that I enjoy about its presence that help me enjoy the current state of MnM (with the exception of Magearna being about, of course)

Benefit 1: Anti-ghost countermeasure

Darkrai fucks Ghosts and Psychics very hard. Pokemon such as Manectite Mew and Lunala have dropped off in usage thanks to Darkrai being able to punish them heavily. Arceus-Ghost also disappeared off of the face of the earth because of Darkrai, and a bunch of other weak pivots have been slowly moving away from the meta due to the threat of Darkrai. A viable Dark-type finally means these mons, supported by Magearna are finally less able to properly operate, and this therefore means that strong defensive backbones are heavily weakened by it, making for a more proactive experience with the metagame, and arguably a more skillful one.

Benefit 2: Promotes proactive counterplay

As continued with the point above, Darkrai is very good for promoting proactive counterplay and opening ways of checking Pokemon previously thought difficult to beat (i.e Magearna, Landorus-Therian). Pokemon that are usually extremely heavily threatened by it are capable of utilizing pivoting moves or doubles to avoid its presence entirely, and it's this quality that can make some teams quite brutal that would be able to work even better when Darkrai wasn't present.

Here are some possible anti-ban arguments for Darkrai that I follow. I believe I am on the line for now, but this has been from experience within the past 24 hours, not overall experience.

Downfall 1: -atespeed and Magearna

Darkrai is unfortunately plagued by these issues above. -atespeed can cause major issues for Darkrai, stopping it from pulling off an immediate sweep, and Magearna, or realistically any variant with Fleur Cannon is capable of forcing out Darkrai multiple times, making it extremely susceptible to wear even from the Pokemon it comes in easily on. Not only this, but Magearna is an incredible force to be reckoned with defensively - very few Pokemon are capable of answering it with ease, especially when its set is unrevealed. This can sometimes make Darkrai a burden for teams that wish to proactively check Magearna due to a lack of checks.

Downfall 2: Adaptation of checks (i.e Sablenite Buzzwole)

Certain Pokemon have adapted to reliably check Darkrai. For example, Sablenite Buzzwole, mainly utilized by user In The Hills is a fairly strong Darkrai check that doesn't fall to the same issues that Magearna does when fighting Darkrai. Certain -atespeed users have also adapted to make Darkrai's capability of breaking much harder, particularly bulky Altarianite Zygarde, which is a fairly reliable answer to both sets despite its weakness to Sludge Bomb and lack of reliable recovery. Altarianite Landorus has also come into relevance as an emergency check to Darkrai as one of its side attributes along with its general difficulty to be handled. And if recovery is desired, Hippowdon and Gliscor are viable alternatives that have been used to a good efficiency. As such, Darkrai has a good range of reliable punishes, and I find this is one thing that stops it from being completely broken.

Downfall 3: Offensive pressure

Unfortunately for Darkrai, its presence has caused a rise of bulky offense teams designed to never let certain strong threats such as Magearna, Primal Kyogre and itself in. Most Pokemon on bulky offense and hyper offense are capable of avoiding the OHKO from Blastoisinite Darkrai's Dark Pulse, and many other Pokemon are capable of revenge killing it that aren't always -atespeed users, such as Pinsirite Zeraora, and the aforementioned Terrakion, another huge threat of this current metagame. Unfortunately, some of these can be highly exploited by Diancite, and this is what makes Darkrai a massive threat even despite offensive counterplay.

Overall, I believe it is time to judge this nightmare of a Pokemon and send it to suspect. Some of my reasoning is outright lacking for my points against it, and I feel as if that may be enough to make me signal a ban for this Pokemon.
(I'd also like a suspect of Magearna some time in the near future thanks!)
 
(I'd also like a suspect of Magearna some time in the near future thanks!)
Wait, what? Not only does someone agree with me after all these many months(which, by the way, I have voiced my opinion, but I was brushed off and therefore never spoke of it again), it is the man who advocates so passionately for it's viability.

I would participate in this lovely argument, but I've realized: I'm not that high up the ladder to even see it often. I always seem to lose just before I hit 1500...
 

Chloe

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I encourage people to address Chazm's post, whether you agree or disagree as it's always great to have added community input prior to suspecting decisions being made.

I personally would be fine with a Darkrai suspect, but don't believe it's urgently needed nor would I probably vote ban if it came to fruition; however, a Magearna suspect test seems completely out of the question for me. While it's an excellent Pokemon, and its viable diversity is tremendous, I don't see a suspect test being the right course of action, at least for the time being.

On another note, I've been trying out a couple of sets recently that I'd like to share, simply because they're really fun to use and can be quite effective given a limited set of criteria being met.


Xurkitree @ Banettite
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nature Power
- Tail Glow
- Grass Knot / Dazzling Gleam
- Magnet Rise

Tapu Koko @ Terrain Extender
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nature's Madness
- Dazzling Gleam
- U-turn
- Roost

One of the things I loved about the Pidgeotite meta was abusing Tail Glow Xurkitree. It was quite enjoyable especially given enough support. This led me to create multiple Electric Terrain based teams to give Xurkitree a sufficient power increase among other threats. Ever since the ban however, it has been difficult to justify Xurkitree on any team. Recently, I discovered that Xurkitree learns Nature Power, and thoughts flooded my head of how to potentially make this usable in M&M. Priority Nature Power -> Thunderbolt is amazing as it overwhelms a large amount of the metagame, without even considering the Tail Glow boost which is relatively simple to obtain given the amount of common threats that don't appreciate Xurkitree's presence. There are a few issues with this of course. Notably, Ground-types should be removed prior to Xurkitree coming in. Darkrai and Tapu Lele are the other two things that pressure it, Dark-types are immune to Prankster and Psychic Terrain negates the move entirely. If these threats are removed, there isn't much standing in Xurkitree's way but it's still a large ask.

Proof of concept:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7mixandmega-821379702
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7mixandmega-824779388


Chandelure @ Diancite
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hex
- Flamethrower
- Calm Mind
- Substitute / Shadow Ball

I absolutely adore ParaSpam as an archetype in any metagame, especially Ubers and Anything Goes. What makes it much more difficult to pull off in M&M, other than the abundance of Magic Bounce users, is the lack of Mega Gengar as a cleaner. While Diancite Chandelure, doesn't have Shadow Tag, it makes up for it with the boost in power it offers, the better STAB combination and the additional speed. It is an excellent cleaner, regardless of whether or not the entire other team is statused, but it does OHKO most statused Pokemon in the tier.

Proof of concept:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7mixandmega-806303117
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7mixandmega-809242689

I'm trying to inspire creativity, as while these both aren't amazing, they perform certain roles very well. I'm interested to see sets other people have come up with over time, and I'm also interested to see viewpoints on Darkrai as a candidate for suspect testing as well as any other general thoughts about the metagame.
 

Funbot28

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I would like to echo a potential Darkrai suspect as well as I have mentioned previously. The versatility it is cultivating between its sets whether it be Blastoisinite or Diancite Nasty Plot 3 Attacks (with coverage in Ice Beam, Thunder, Focus Blast, Sludge Bomb, etc...) which enables it to break through certain checks such as Ho-Oh, Primal Kyogre, Arceus Fairy, etc. Sets such as Red Orb also enables Darkrai to beat its best form of counterplay in Magearna. Of course Darkrai can't run all these sets at once, but scouting for these options can really be detrimental as the opposing team needs to start saccing mons to deal with a +2 Darkrai. I feel the recent shift from a more bulkier meta towards the more offensively inclined one is mainly in part to Darkrai's overbearing presence a a wallbreaker, which may not necessarily be a good thing imo. I feel a suspect is warranted at the least imo.



Not too sure if I am sold for a Magearna suspect atm. While sets keep being discovered (been recently enjoying defensive Latiasite and Manectite), Magearna has been a threat that always seemed somewhat manageable throughout the various metagame shifts. One can usually scout the set from team preview from the most part, where more defensive teams lacking a solid special tank and Darkrai answer would usually tend to run defensive sets such as Sablenite, Latiasite, or Venusaurite while more offensive teams that need a solid option to break through defensive cores would tend to run Cameruptite and Pinsirite. I will admit it to be an centralizing force for certain as it is quite splashable and effective in each role its positioned to perform. However, checks such as Primal Groudon, defensive Magearna, bulky Entei, and Aggronite Buzzwole are not only solid options but are also popular and relevant in their own right, commonly being run on teams without the sole purpose in checking Magearna. I woudn't be opposed to a potential suspect in the near future in a post-Darkrai meta, but for now I see it as a healthy presence to the tier.

Now a set I have been enjoying:


Zeraora @ Pinsirite
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 144 HP / 172 Atk / 192 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Return
- Plasma Fists
- Fake Out
- Bulk Up

Chazm had given me the spread, but more bulk on Zeraora can be great for checking things such as Salamencite Landorus-T and Noivern. Zeraora itself is a great pick in the current meta as it acts as a great form of speed control to help neutralize other offensive threats such as Darkrai, Tapu Lele, and Kartana. It gains a great typing once mega evolving and can actually hit decently hard after a Bulk Up or two. Definitely try it out if you haven't already (please no Loppunite though).


Mew @ Ampharosite
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 68 Def / 164 SpD / 24 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic / Will-O-Wisp
- Roost
- Earth Power
- Taunt

Bulky Ampharosite Mew is something I have always been interested in due to its great stallbreaking capabilities and useful typing which enables it to check the abundance of Fire, Grass, and Water types running the meta. The ev spread listed enables it to avoid the 2hko from Primal Groudon's Pblades iirc. Manectite and Red Orb are still much better sets, but having something to break through Sablenite users is always appreciated especially for offensive teams.
 

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