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Having the ability to trap Blissey is something that I feel like could help the meta, but OMPL has seen a rise in things like Sablenite Mandibuzz and Lunala. Mandibuzz can U-turn out of Mega Gengar, even though Mega Gengar can't do much without Perish Song anyway. Lunala can just switch out of Mega Gengar because of its Ghost type, so that isn't too much of a problem for Lunala. Buzzwole has been using Sablenite as well, I don't know exactly its sets with it but if it has no Earthquake, Mega Gengar may be able to beat it? I dunno, this is probably too much speculation now. Better than nothing I guess, let's just see what other people think.
Finally, addressing the recent Mega Gengar re-suspect discussion. While I haven't discussed it with the four other council members yet, my personal opinion is that Mega Gengar may have been unfairly caught up in the Shadow Tag suspect test; however, I'm currently on the fence on whether suspect testing it is the best idea. If a suspect test arises from the council discussion, then expect it in a few weeks depending on the speed of OMPL and the ongoing BH Suspect Test.
I may not be a very good MnM player, but I believe that Mega Gengar should not be suspected, as adding it back in could possibly kill all stall. It already has problems with Pain Split + Calm Mind Magearna, WhirlSong Arceus, and Primal Groudon, so I feel that adding another effortless PerishTrapper, with incredible supporting moves that the aformentioned stallbreakers do not have such as Disable, Taunt, and Will-o-Wisp, would be the final nail in the coffin. A few people argue that certain walls can simply use pivot out of the trap, but the problem with that statement is that not many of common walls actually get U-Turn (besides Mandibuzz, Magearna, Gliscor, and Mew). Additionally, Gengar-Mega can Protect and then Disable the move, preventing the wall from switching.
Let's go through the VR and see what it can beat on stall.
win: gengar-mega ko's opp lose: gengar-mega faints or opp switches out
S rank
Groudon-Primal (Red Orb): lose
A rank
A+:
Magearna (Sablenite, Blue Orb): lose
A:
Blissey (Sablenite): win (though psywave is determined by rng)
Buzzwole (Aggronite): win (if gengar uses protect/sub + disable on iron head/eq)
Mew (Sablenite, Aggronite): win (if mew doesn't have psychic and gengar uses protect/sub + disable on u-turn/volt switch)
Zygarde-Complete (Leftovers, Groundium Z): win (if zygarde only has thousand arrows)
B-:
Arceus-Water (Splash Plate): win
Arceus-Rock (Stone Plate): (probably) win
Ditto (Choice Scarf): lose
Giratina (Leftovers): lose
Hippowdon (Venusaurite, Sablenite): win (if gengar uses protect/sub + disable on earthquake and hippowdon doesn't have whirlwind or gengar uses taunt)
C rank
Celebi (Blue Orb): win (if celebi doesn't have psychic and uturn on the same set)
Gastrodon (Manectite, Sablenite): win
not mentioned but proven to be viable:
mandibuzz: lose
wins: 13
losses: 9
As shown, stall starts with a disadvantage when Gengar is revealed in the team preview. The counterplay is much harder than just firing off a Haze or transforming or burning the opponent.
Then again, I'm well known for shitposting, so you can take this post with a grain of salt.
I may not be a very good MnM player, but I believe that Mega Gengar should not be suspected, as adding it back in could possibly kill all stall. It already has problems with Pain Split + Calm Mind Magearna, WhirlSong Arceus, and Primal Groudon, so I feel that adding another effortless PerishTrapper, with incredible supporting moves that the aformentioned stallbreakers do not have such as Disable, Taunt, and Will-o-Wisp, would be the final nail in the coffin. A few people argue that certain walls can simply use pivot out of the trap, but the problem with that statement is that not many of common walls actually get U-Turn (besides Mandibuzz, Magearna, Gliscor, and Mew). Additionally, Gengar-Mega can Protect and then Disable the move, preventing the wall from switching.
Let's go through the VR and see what it can beat on stall.
win: gengar-mega ko's opp lose: gengar-mega faints or opp switches out
S rank
Groudon-Primal (Red Orb): lose
A rank
A+:
Magearna (Sablenite, Blue Orb): lose
A:
Blissey (Sablenite): win
Buzzwole (Aggronite): win (if gengar uses protect/sub + disable on iron head/eq)
Mew (Sablenite, Aggronite): win (if mew doesn't have psychic and gengar uses protect/sub + disable on u-turn/volt switch)
Hippowdon (Venusaurite, Sablenite): win (if gengar uses protect/sub + disable on earthquake and hippowdon doesn't have whirlwind or gengar uses taunt)
C rank
Celebi (Blue Orb): win (if celebi doesn't have psychic and uturn on the same set)
Gastrodon (Manectite, Sablenite): win
not mentioned but proven to be viable:
mandibuzz: (mostly) lose
wins: 13
losses: 9
As shown, stall starts with a disadvantage when Gengar is revealed in the team preview. The counterplay is much harder than just firing off a Haze or transforming or burning the opponent.
Then again, I'm well known for shitposting, so you can take this post with a grain of salt.
This is a good post, but i'd just like to correct a few things.
Mandibuzz runs both foul play and u-turn, as well as running sablenite which bounces disable, so it definitely wins this matchup.
A good few zygarde-complete sets are mono-attacking, which lose to sub disable perish mgar.
Most hippos are eq + whirlwind so again it can phaze mgar out even if disable.
Same goes for skarm but both this and hippo take quite a lot of damage from gengar's attacks in general.
Toxapex loses to subdisable perish since it never runs more than one attack.
Mega gengar does indeed beat ghostceus 1v1 with subdisable but it's a ghost type so is free to switch out.
Blissey can damage mgar with the already common psywave, but still loses to subperish as long as it runs max hp, at best forcing a double down if mgar starts at full. It is however worth mentioning that getting mgar successfully megad without taking any chip whatsoever can be pretty difficult in practice, which seems to be a recurring theme with mgar in general (harder to operate successfully in practice than it is in theory).
Guess would like to take this time to talk about the MnM metagame at large as I feel a lack of discussion has been indeed been present over the past couple of months after the Naganadel ban.
I am actually in agreement when it comes to reviewing the Shadow Tag ban as I also shared the same sentiments that a blanket ban of the entire ability may not be the best way to go about the issue since Mega Gengar did not share the same "broken" attributes as Goth did back when they were legal in my opinion. This is mainly due to how well Goth was able to trap the intended passive foes it was supposed to get rid of such as Blissey, Toxapex, non-pivot Mew, and SupportCeus formes. Mega Gengar however, while potent as an offensive revenge killer, had a much more difficult time consistently performing its role as a dedicated trapper considering how it was threatened by the majority of other offensive threats such as Metagrossite Kartana, Absolite Manaphy, Diancite Tapu Lele, alongside priority from -atespeed (even tho it resists Pixi it still does not appreciate taking hits if not from full:
252+ Atk Pixilate Entei Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar-Mega: 118-139 (45 - 53%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Pixilate Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar-Mega: 99-117 (37.7 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Pixilate Genesect Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar-Mega: 110-130 (41.9 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Mega Gengar also had issue breaking through some defensive walls as well, being able to unreliably break through stuff like the aforementioned Sablenite Blissey, pivot Magearna, Aggronite Mew, and Gyaradosite Toxapex without significant amount of chip damage or relying on fringe sets such as PerishTrap. The only issue I saw with bringing Mega Gengar back at the time was the potential potency it had in terms of the opponent needing to scout whether or not the base Gengar was running a Gengarite or Pidgeotite, potentially skewing some matchups. However, with the ladder stone banned, I don't see this as an issue anymore and honestly can see Mega Gengar permit itself back into the current metagame, especially considering how offensive it is right now. A simple ban on Gothitelle (maybe Gothorita if that becomes too much of an issue as well) should do imo.
Magearna has really become the forefront of the current metagame, outshining previous amazing mons such as Primal Groudon and Zygarde imo due to the simple versatility + consistency of all its sets. Whether it be the Cameruptite CMSplit or AoA Trick Room set or others such as defensive pivot with either Sablenite or Latiasite, Pinsirite Shift Gear or even CM + Shift Gear alongside an Alakazite or Manectite, Magearna can easily be placed on simply almost every team given on how flexible of a slot it can be. I see this as a potential issue due to how vast some of its checks may be when considering that each set requires their own specific ways of appropriately dealing with it. For example, SpD Toxapex may act as a great check to Cameruptite Magearna sets running Shadow Ball + Fblast coverage, but fail to check ones that decide to run BolBeam or even some Pinsirite Magearna sets if the Pex gets worn down too quickly. Other examples include Ho-Oh, Aggronite Mew and other defensive Magearna, where they can all check one set well, but simply fail to wall Mag with a simple change in its moves or mega stone choice. I know this goes into the whole argument of theorymonning and obviously Magearna cannot run all these sets + move choices all at once, but considering how viable / splashable most of its sets are, I have definitely noticed a certain strain on teambuilding being imposed by Mag when I build currently in my opinion.
Also, Zeraoara is a lot worse then I initially thought it would be, where sets such as Lopunnite cant seem to break through most of the stuff it wants to and just gets outclassed by other wallbreakers such as Terrakion in the current meta. I have actually been enjoying sets running Glalitite, as BoltBeam coverage alongside moves such as Close Combat and Fire Punch makes it extremely hard to properly come into.
Besides that, its nice to see new techs such as Lopunnite Dugtrio and Noivern being used again, helps refresh the meta once more as it was getting kinda stale. Grtz to the new council members too!
Guess would like to take this time to talk about the MnM metagame at large as I feel a lack of discussion has been indeed been present over the past couple of months after the Naganadel ban.
I am actually in agreement when it comes to reviewing the Shadow Tag ban as I also shared the same sentiments that a blanket ban of the entire ability may not be the best way to go about the issue since Mega Gengar did not share the same "broken" attributes as Goth did back when they were legal in my opinion. This is mainly due to how well Goth was able to trap the intended passive foes it was supposed to get rid of such as Blissey, Toxapex, non-pivot Mew, and SupportCeus formes. Mega Gengar however, while potent as an offensive revenge killer, had a much more difficult time consistently performing its role as a dedicated trapper considering how it was threatened by the majority of other offensive threats such as Metagrossite Kartana, Absolite Manaphy, Diancite Tapu Lele, alongside priority from -atespeed (even tho it resists Pixi it still does not appreciate taking hits if not from full:
252+ Atk Pixilate Entei Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar-Mega: 118-139 (45 - 53%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Pixilate Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar-Mega: 99-117 (37.7 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Pixilate Genesect Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar-Mega: 110-130 (41.9 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Mega Gengar also had issue breaking through some defensive walls as well, being able to unreliably break through stuff like the aforementioned Sablenite Blissey, pivot Magearna, Aggronite Mew, and Gyaradosite Toxapex without significant amount of chip damage or relying on fringe sets such as PerishTrap. The only issue I saw with bringing Mega Gengar back at the time was the potential potency it had in terms of the opponent needing to scout whether or not the base Gengar was running a Gengarite or Pidgeotite, potentially skewing some matchups. However, with the ladder stone banned, I don't see this as an issue anymore and honestly can see Mega Gengar permit itself back into the current metagame, especially considering how offensive it is right now. A simple ban on Gothitelle (maybe Gothorita if that becomes too much of an issue as well) should do imo.
Magearna has really become the forefront of the current metagame, outshining previous amazing mons such as Primal Groudon and Zygarde imo due to the simple versatility + consistency of all its sets. Whether it be the Cameruptite CMSplit or AoA Trick Room set or others such as defensive pivot with either Sablenite or Latiasite, Pinsirite Shift Gear or even CM + Shift Gear alongside an Alakazite or Manectite, Magearna can easily be placed on simply almost every team given on how flexible of a slot it can be. I see this as a potential issue due to how vast some of its checks may be when considering that each set requires their own specific ways of appropriately dealing with it. For example, SpD Toxapex may act as a great check to Cameruptite Magearna sets running Shadow Ball + Fblast coverage, but fail to check ones that decide to run BolBeam or even some Pinsirite Magearna sets if the Pex gets worn down too quickly. Other examples include Ho-Oh, Aggronite Mew and other defensive Magearna, where they can all check one set well, but simply fail to wall Mag with a simple change in its moves or mega stone choice. I know this goes into the whole argument of theorymonning and obviously Magearna cannot run all these sets + move choices all at once, but considering how viable / splashable most of its sets are, I have definitely noticed a certain strain on teambuilding being imposed by Mag when I build currently in my opinion.
Also, Zeraoara is a lot worse then I initially thought it would be, where sets such as Lopunnite cant seem to break through most of the stuff it wants to and just gets outclassed by other wallbreakers such as Terrakion in the current meta. I have actually been enjoying sets running Glalitite, as BoltBeam coverage alongside moves such as Close Combat and Fire Punch makes it extremely hard to properly come into.
Besides that, its nice to see new techs such as Lopunnite Dugtrio and Noivern being used again, helps refresh the meta once more as it was getting kinda stale. Grtz to the new council members too!
The sheer amount of constraint both of these mons put on eachothers checks is fantastic. Zygarde can not only pivot into most of what forces Magearna out (i.e Red Orb users), but it is also able to paralyze its own checks for Magearna, in particular making Buzzwole much more of a liability against Magearna. Magearna is then able to just abuse the hell out of these switchins and cause heavy damage to whatever check switches in. This core really does churn up games and forces aggressive play in order to be able to keep up with the barrage. You can see me specifically using a lot of this core in my past OMPL matches, specifically Shadow Bolt as this combination invalidates the likes of Pinsirite Magearna and Cobalion from doing much offensively to the team - it particularly kills pretty much every steel apart from Magearna itself.
Landorus-Therian @ Salamencite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 168 HP / 16 Atk / 156 SpD / 168 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Return
- Swords Dance
- Stealth Rock
As the core above seems to suggest, the meta has gotten more offensive, and I feel that despite the rise of Zapdos, Landorus-Therian has gotten much better simply because it can pressure certain cores or check the likes of Primal Groudon and Magearna, making it one of the best utility breakers for bulky offense. I particularly find the set above great, as it can even break through the likes of Manectite Mew, leaving a train of havoc for something like Zygarde or Terrakion to force itself through. Explosion sets are still great; however I feel like for a bulkier team this would be more suitable as counterplay far better.
Darkrai has seen a mad surge in usage due to the lack of common checks on most teams. Its presence has given rise to the likes of Sablenite Buzzwole and yet furthers the usage of Magearna, due to the role compression the Diancite set can give and the pure breaking power of Blastosinite. Thunder on the Diancite set particularly helps as it is able to muscle through Ho-oh, something it previously struggled to break past. Unfortunately, like Terrakion, it struggles with offensive checks like Entei and Zygarde; which suit a more offensive meta better. However, it is clear that Darkrai is not a terrible mon like its ranking shows and deserves much better on the VR.
I think Primal G also deserves a small mention for being an incredibly popular pick, as a bulky and strong offensive mon that can kind of be dropped into teams without a whole lot of thought. (Although it, Magearna, and Zyguarde *do* seem to have gotten a bit less popular as of late, so thats good I guess)
On another note, I think that MnM has distinguished itself enough, and developed a deep enough metagame that a Mix and Mega UU might be an interesting possibility. I love how much creativity in builds MnM offers, and it gives so many pokemon that are *just a bit* lacking; an oppertunity to function better with a new type, customized and improved stats, etc. And I think a UU tier would help to create a more diverse range of viable mons to experiment with.
(If it ever does happen I'll have so many teams that I can post that won't be garbage anymore)
Also, Zeraoara is a lot worse then I initially thought it would be, where sets such as Lopunnite cant seem to break through most of the stuff it wants to and just gets outclassed by other wallbreakers such as Terrakion in the current meta. I have actually been enjoying sets running Glalitite, as BoltBeam coverage alongside moves such as Close Combat and Fire Punch makes it extremely hard to properly come into.
Besides that, its nice to see new techs such as Lopunnite Dugtrio and Noivern being used again, helps refresh the meta once more as it was getting kinda stale. Grtz to the new council members too!
Zeraora is a mon I never thought of as a breaker. It's not really bad, as it does check a lot of big threats mons in the meta. The speed is what matters, as with it, you can focus more on power. Being able to take advantage of Glatite and Pinsirite. Electric typing is also great for tanking flying e-speeds. It's natural bulk also allows it to tank fairy e-speeds from full. Even tanking a-jet from golispod and in return KOing. Also, shift gear Magearna has trouble out speeding Zera. It also deals with certain diancite users like Terrakion and Tapu Lele.
Zeraoara is by no means an A-S rank threat. But it could be an A- threat, as it does check so many things. Also, it does have the opportunity to deal massive damage to skarmory, toxapex (depending on the stones they each run, as well as the set), and Chansey (if loppunite). So, before mega evolving, it can highly difficult to find a proper switch-in. Even P-don doesn't appreciate taking a STAB Close Combat.
All in all, Zeraoara is definitely an underrated threat that should be thought over again.
Zeraora is a mon I never thought of as a breaker. It's not really bad, as it does check a lot of big threats mons in the meta. The speed is what matters, as with it, you can focus more on power. Being able to take advantage of Glatite and Pinsirite. Electric typing is also great for tanking flying e-speeds. It's natural bulk also allows it to tank fairy e-speeds from full. Even tanking a-jet from golispod and in return KOing. Also, shift gear Magearna has trouble out speeding Zera. It also deals with certain diancite users like Terrakion and Tapu Lele.
Zeraoara is by no means an A-S rank threat. But it could be an A- threat, as it does check so many things. Also, it does have the opportunity to deal massive damage to skarmory, toxapex (depending on the stones they each run, as well as the set), and Chansey (if loppunite). So, before mega evolving, it can highly difficult to find a proper switch-in. Even P-don doesn't appreciate taking a STAB Close Combat.
All in all, Zeraoara is definitely an underrated threat that should be thought over again.
The problem with this logic is that when you look at the better compressor for this, Diancite Terrakion, you realize that a lot of the roles that Zeraora has are duely missed as a fighting-type. Terrakion can do pretty much every role Zeraora can plus set Stealth Rock and have enough free moveslots by the end of it to even use Toxic or Taunt as its last. One of the main niches Zera has is its moderate bulk alongside high speed, which makes its Pinsirite set admittedly its best set. Unfortunately, like Kartana, this set struggles quite heavily with two of the most prominent Pokemon in the metagame, Primal Groudon and Magearna. Both can one shot Zeraora with Overheat and Ice Beam respectively - handing over momentum to a TR Magearna isn't exactly advisable either. Both sets also struggle with Aggronite Buzzwole and Manectite Mew, as they are unable to muscle through its defenses. I could see Volt Switch on its moveset, which would allow it to circumvent some of its checks, but would create others without Bulk Up due to a lack of initial damage. Hey, it's a decent mon all in all, but I just don't think it's any better than B-
Well, as a fellow Mix and Mega aficionado who has covered all the Ultra Beasts up to now, let me weigh in on Zeraora myself.
To begin, it's not exactly charitable (or correct) to simply say that Terrakion straight outclasses Zeraora. Zeraora can outspeed the whole relevant tier, for one. It can even outspeed the aforementioned Terrakion with Lopunnite. (Lucarionite and Pinsirite doesn't make the Electric blur quite fast enough...) To me, we haven't quite figured Zeraora out yet. Yes, Pinsirite is definitely a good fit, and Electric/Flying is a very solid typing in general. But let us consider, for a moment... the whole picture.
The first thing we notice with Zeraora is that it has many more physical moves than special ones. But something else that may have slipped past is that Zeraora gets a possible STAB on most of the type-changing stones. Yes, even Aggronite. And it gets Dragon attacks, too. (And Throat Chop is a part of that list. Dang it, Zarel...) The one exception is Audinite, but Altarianite is just flat-out better, as it delivers another possible STAB. While it has no reliable recovery, a bunch of other versatile options are there, including Taunt, Calm Mind, Bulk Up, Fake Out, and Volt Switch. It doesn't have many special attacks, but it's barely enough to actually scrape an offensive Calm Mind set up. And Zeraora has enough bulk to become irritating to take down after one of these against more utility-minded Pokemon.
What we're actually looking at is a veritable all purpose speedster... which means there's another puzzle to solve here. And that is looking for what stones are effective here. I'm glad you all did this for Mew eventually (even though I think the search stopped somewhat early, given we have 2-3 stones given the light of day in most matches), and this could also be worth it. I could even see Zeraora being a powerful anti-lead with Gyaradosite, and would be among the fastest of those we've seen... Volt Switch and Taunt are more than enough to propel Zeraora in such a position, and the rest can be fit for its specific needs...
As for rankings, I think A- is about the roof. While I'm singing praise for Zeraora's versatility, it does lose badly to Primal Groudon, and needs to pivot against Magearna to avoid damage (if it has it). I'm more inclined to start its ranking at a B or a B+. The most apt comparison I see to Zeraora is actually Weavile, and it fares pretty well in that regard, given it has a ton of versatility, bulk, and speed over Weavile. And arguably a better typing, too.... Now back to our daisy in progress. (I'm personally going to see if an Absolite set would be any good...)
The problem with this logic is that when you look at the better compressor for this, Diancite Terrakion, you realize that a lot of the roles that Zeraora has are duely missed as a fighting-type. Terrakion can do pretty much every role Zeraora can plus set Stealth Rock and have enough free moveslots by the end of it to even use Toxic or Taunt as its last. One of the main niches Zera has is its moderate bulk alongside high speed, which makes its Pinsirite set admittedly its best set. Unfortunately, like Kartana, this set struggles quite heavily with two of the most prominent Pokemon in the metagame, Primal Groudon and Magearna. Both can one shot Zeraora with Overheat and Ice Beam respectively - handing over momentum to a TR Magearna isn't exactly advisable either. Both sets also struggle with Aggronite Buzzwole and Manectite Mew, as they are unable to muscle through its defenses. I could see Volt Switch on its moveset, which would allow it to circumvent some of its checks, but would create others without Bulk Up due to a lack of initial damage. Hey, it's a decent mon all in all, but I just don't think it's any better than B-
A lot of mons have trouble with tr magearna, but it’s not like zera can’t taunt to stop tr from happening. Zera fits best on balance too, so you know Chansey is going to eat up tr mag anyways. And saying terakion outclasses zera is not true. Terakion with diancite means e-speed kos. Zera doesn’t have to worry bout that at all. If mega’d already with pinsirite, it can actually come in on an eq or flying stab return/frustration from lando.
Something diancite terakion cannot do. Diancite terakion can’t switch into much while zera can. Zera can tank hits, diancite terrakion can’t. It fits solid on balance because of how well it deals with hyper offense. Something no other mon can claim. It’s also very unpredictable. Pinsirite might not even be its best set. As seen in the above post, you guys did miss a lot with zera.
Edit: I forgot about buzz and mew. Certain zera sets can run fire punch for buzz. Mew is a nuisance for physical zera sets tho. Special sets can harass mew with manectite tho. Like I said, it’s very unpredictable. With that speed and moderate bulk, it can choose a myriad of threats it wants to beat. By the way, p-don does have trouble switching in to a lot of zera sets. And it has to run fire to out right beat pinsirite zera, as pinsirite zera can win with prior chip or even just after sr + spike.
A lot of mons have trouble with tr magearna, but it’s not like zera can’t taunt to stop tr from happening. Zera fits best on balance too, so you know Chansey is going to eat up tr mag anyways. And saying terakion outclasses zera is not true. Terakion with diancite means e-speed kos. Zera doesn’t have to worry bout that at all. If mega’d already with pinsirite, it can actually come in on an eq or flying stab return/frustration from lando.
Something diancite terakion cannot do. Diancite terakion can’t switch into much while zera can. Zera can tank hits, diancite terrakion can’t. It fits solid on balance because of how well it deals with hyper offense. Something no other mon can claim. It’s also very unpredictable. Pinsirite might not even be its best set. As seen in the above post, you guys did miss a lot with zera.
Edit: I forgot about buzz and mew. Certain zera sets can run fire punch for buzz. Mew is a nuisance for physical zera sets tho. Special sets can harass mew with manectite tho. Like I said, it’s very unpredictable. With that speed and moderate bulk, it can choose a myriad of threats it wants to beat. By the way, p-don does have trouble switching in to a lot of zera sets. And it has to run fire to out right beat pinsirite zera, as pinsirite zera can win with prior chip or even just after sr + spike.
You mentioned this before But. .. you mean blissey not chansey, right?
Also blissey isn't that common on Balance and needs confide to somehow check mage.
I don't have much experience with it but A- sounds too high for zereora... really B/B- seems the most accurate ranking for now.
I doubt it but we could see a similiar case to darkrai, where it Was heavily understimated when unbanned and needed a lot of time to prove us wrong
You mentioned this before But. .. you mean blissey not chansey, right?
Also blissey isn't that common on Balance and needs confide to somehow check mage.
I don't have much experience with it but A- sounds too high for zereora... really B/B- seems the most accurate ranking for now.
I doubt it but we could see a similiar case to darkrai, where it Was heavily understimated when unbanned and needed a lot of time di proveus wrong
Yeah, my bad. I meant Blissey. And on ladder I've seen Blissey on Balance a lot. So, I do apologize for a lack of knowledge on tour settings of Blissey not being on Balance that much. Zeraoara is definitely underestimated, though. I could see Zera going to B+ or B rank. But lower than B makes no sense as it does mess with a good amount of threats way too well. It's stats can be messed around with a bit as it does have a very high speed stat (especially in comparison to most threats) and therefor could run a bulkier EV spread that might out do even more threats. There is a lot to experiment with when it comes to Zeraoara.
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Zebstrika: 271-321 (78 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I used Zebstrika because apparently Zeraoara is not the damage calc. This is Terrakion with Diancite, and Zeraoara with Metagrossite. 88/95/100 Bulk if my math is correct. Metagrossite gives it a lot of speed, allowing it to run more EVs in HP. You could do the same for Manectite on a calm mind set. With 120 EVs in HP, you out speed Diancite users with 108 Base by one point.
252 SpA Shaymin-Sky Seed Flare vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Zebstrika: 252-297 (72.6 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Diancite Shaymin-Sky out speeds no matter what but, at least this way it lives the seed flare.
252+ Atk Entei Extreme Speed vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Zebstrika: 125-148 (36 - 42.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Zebstrika Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Filter Buzzwole: 207-246 (49.5 - 58.8%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Zebstrika Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Groudon-Primal: 162-191 (40 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
With that set though, it could show Zera working excellently in mid and late game. You could run bulk up to sweep late game, while running plasma fists, close combat, filler. It'll definitely annoy threats in mid game if you decide not to sweep.
Even a cm set with Manectite could do the same, running less HP EVs of course. I'll definitely try to score some replays to showcase these sets. For the community, though, if you do find success share the replays, I'd like to see them so I can see other ways of running it. Zera is definitely an interesting mon.
I have an odd question. Instead of blanket banning certain stones on non-native users, why not just ban them on ones that wouldn't gain the same (or equivalent) ability? Because it seems that the abilities are more what's broken than the stones themselves.
Beedrillite (Adaptability):
This seems to be mostly due to the insane stat boosts rather than Adaptability on its own, because Lucarionite isn't banned. But if you restrict it, you'd mostly get users like Crawdaunt (43/180/65/20/35/105), Gumshoos (88/170/60/25/60/115), and Basculin (70/152/65/50/55/168), depending on where in the Attack/Speed tradeoff you want to be. But given that this is an Ubers-based metagame, I think we can handle mons with that much attack and speed, especially considering they've almost universally got wet tissue paper defenses. Porygon-Z goes to being 85/140/70/105/75/160, but pretty much all it can do with that is spam Return/Facade/Giga Impact, given its weak physical movepool. An interesting choice would be Dragalge (65/135/90/67/123/114) if you want a tanky Beedrillite mon. Usage-wise, it goes from having Draco Meteor and Sludge Wave to Gunk Shot and I suppose Outrage. Its Dragon Tails hurt more, though, but you'll be using it less comparatively because losing priority at 114 Speed is more painful than losing it at 44 Speed.
Blazikenite (Speed Boost):
Speed Boost is a pretty broken ability, not gonna lie. But the stat boosts the stone itself gives aren't as huge as on Beedrillite. So Ninjask would become 61/130/55/70/60/180, which is as fast as and harder-hitting than Deoxys-S while also having Swords Dance, but it's frailer and unable to use a Focus Sash, and given how much priority there is, it probably wouldn't get to do that much. Yanmega is somewhat sturdier with 86/116/96/136/66/115. However, the plurality of its boost goes to Attack, which still winds up lower than its SpAtk, and is mostly wasted (though STAB Leech Life may hit harder than Giga Drain on a neutral target for purposes of healing, it still isn't worth not running Modest or Timid). Scolipede becomes 60/140/99/75/79/132, and also has Swords Dance, but it loses Z-crystals and so can't nail opponents which resist its STABs with Hydro Vortex or Tectonic Rage. An interesting choice might be Sharpedo (70/160/50/115/50/115); it has a higher Atk than normal Mega-Sharpedo and retains Speed Boost, but Strong Jaw does more than the extra Atk and it's far frailer.
Gengarite (Shadow Tag):
Shadow Tag is banned, and Gothitelle was already banned even without being able to use a Mega Stone, so not a topic of discussion.
Kangaskanite (Parental Bond):
No non-Mega has this ability, so it's effectively regular banned.
Mawilite (Huge Power) and Medichamite (Pure Power):
Considering them both at the same time, because they do basically the same thing ability-wise, and considering them interchangable opens up more options. Mawilite Medicham has 60/80/115/60/115/80 stats, which is slower and less hard-hitting but bulkier than normal Mega Medicham. Azumarill becomes 100/70/120/60/120/50 with Mawilite and 100/90/90/80/90/70 with Medichamite, both of which are pretty damn buff, and Rest/Sleep Talk/Play Rough/Liquidation with Mawilite would probably lead to it being bannable if it weren't an Ubers-based format. Medichamite Diggersby becomes 85/96/87/70/87/98, which probably isn't that much better than Mega Medicham; Mawilite Diggersby is 85/76/117/50/117/78, which is almost as bulky as Azumarill becomes, but it relies too much on coverage moves to be able to go with Rest/Sleep Talk like Azumarill can.
Pidgeotite (No Guard):
+65 SpAtk and No Guard is broken on a lot of Pokemon with any kind of sleep moves, and Darkrai is probably the standard-bearer for this sort of thing. But limit it to fully-evolved mons which already have No Guard and it's much less broken. Pigeotite Machamp has 90/135/85/130/95/75, which makes it a weird mixed wallbreaker. Focus Blast and Fire Blast are its strongest special move options, with Focus Blast being almost strictly better than Close Combat; while Vacuum Wave gives it STAB priority. Golurk becomes 89/124/85/120/90/75, which is worse stat-wise than Machamp, but it has a better type and more special moves for coverage than Machamp does. Lycanroc (Midnight) is an 85/115/80/120/85/102 mon with Pidgeotite, but its special movepool is an utterly barren and desolate place where not even weeds grow. And everyone else who gets No Guard is an unevolved Pokemon which gets a different ability upon fully evolving, and is thus irrelevant.
So if the banned mega stones are restricted to Pokemon who can already get the ability the stones give, I think it'd allow for more creative teambuilding and probably wouldn't shake things up too much. A suspect test for a format change like this would probably be mostly checking:
Are Basculin/Crawdaunt/Gumshoos too strong with Beedrillite?
Is Sharpedo being able to retain Speed Boost along with Mega Evolving worth more than having Strong Jaw and better defenses?
Is Mawilite Azumarill too good a combination of offense and defense?
Would anyone ever use Pidgeotite Machamp or Golurk?
I have an odd question. Instead of blanket banning certain stones on non-native users, why not just ban them on ones that wouldn't gain the same (or equivalent) ability? Because it seems that the abilities are more what's broken than the stones themselves.
Beedrillite (Adaptability):
This seems to be mostly due to the insane stat boosts rather than Adaptability on its own, because Lucarionite isn't banned. But if you restrict it, you'd mostly get users like Crawdaunt (43/180/65/20/35/105), Gumshoos (88/170/60/25/60/115), and Basculin (70/152/65/50/55/168), depending on where in the Attack/Speed tradeoff you want to be. But given that this is an Ubers-based metagame, I think we can handle mons with that much attack and speed, especially considering they've almost universally got wet tissue paper defenses. Porygon-Z goes to being 85/140/70/105/75/160, but pretty much all it can do with that is spam Return/Facade/Giga Impact, given its weak physical movepool. An interesting choice would be Dragalge (65/135/90/67/123/114) if you want a tanky Beedrillite mon. Usage-wise, it goes from having Draco Meteor and Sludge Wave to Gunk Shot and I suppose Outrage. Its Dragon Tails hurt more, though, but you'll be using it less comparatively because losing priority at 114 Speed is more painful than losing it at 44 Speed.
Blazikenite (Speed Boost):
Speed Boost is a pretty broken ability, not gonna lie. But the stat boosts the stone itself gives aren't as huge as on Beedrillite. So Ninjask would become 61/130/55/70/60/180, which is as fast as and harder-hitting than Deoxys-S while also having Swords Dance, but it's frailer and unable to use a Focus Sash, and given how much priority there is, it probably wouldn't get to do that much. Yanmega is somewhat sturdier with 86/116/96/136/66/115. However, the plurality of its boost goes to Attack, which still winds up lower than its SpAtk, and is mostly wasted (though STAB Leech Life may hit harder than Giga Drain on a neutral target for purposes of healing, it still isn't worth not running Modest or Timid). Scolipede becomes 60/140/99/75/79/132, and also has Swords Dance, but it loses Z-crystals and so can't nail opponents which resist its STABs with Hydro Vortex or Tectonic Rage. An interesting choice might be Sharpedo (70/160/50/115/50/115); it has a higher Atk than normal Mega-Sharpedo and retains Speed Boost, but Strong Jaw does more than the extra Atk and it's far frailer.
Gengarite (Shadow Tag):
Shadow Tag is banned, and Gothitelle was already banned even without being able to use a Mega Stone, so not a topic of discussion.
Kangaskanite (Parental Bond):
No non-Mega has this ability, so it's effectively regular banned.
Mawilite (Huge Power) and Medichamite (Pure Power):
Considering them both at the same time, because they do basically the same thing ability-wise, and considering them interchangable opens up more options. Mawilite Medicham has 60/80/115/60/115/80 stats, which is slower and less hard-hitting but bulkier than normal Mega Medicham. Azumarill becomes 100/70/120/60/120/50 with Mawilite and 100/90/90/80/90/70 with Medichamite, both of which are pretty damn buff, and Rest/Sleep Talk/Play Rough/Liquidation with Mawilite would probably lead to it being bannable if it weren't an Ubers-based format. Medichamite Diggersby becomes 85/96/87/70/87/98, which probably isn't that much better than Mega Medicham; Mawilite Diggersby is 85/76/117/50/117/78, which is almost as bulky as Azumarill becomes, but it relies too much on coverage moves to be able to go with Rest/Sleep Talk like Azumarill can.
Pidgeotite (No Guard):
+65 SpAtk and No Guard is broken on a lot of Pokemon with any kind of sleep moves, and Darkrai is probably the standard-bearer for this sort of thing. But limit it to fully-evolved mons which already have No Guard and it's much less broken. Pigeotite Machamp has 90/135/85/130/95/75, which makes it a weird mixed wallbreaker. Focus Blast and Fire Blast are its strongest special move options, with Focus Blast being almost strictly better than Close Combat; while Vacuum Wave gives it STAB priority. Golurk becomes 89/124/85/120/90/75, which is worse stat-wise than Machamp, but it has a better type and more special moves for coverage than Machamp does. Lycanroc (Midnight) is an 85/115/80/120/85/102 mon with Pidgeotite, but its special movepool is an utterly barren and desolate place where not even weeds grow. And everyone else who gets No Guard is an unevolved Pokemon which gets a different ability upon fully evolving, and is thus irrelevant.
So if the banned mega stones are restricted to Pokemon who can already get the ability the stones give, I think it'd allow for more creative teambuilding and probably wouldn't shake things up too much. A suspect test for a format change like this would probably be mostly checking:
Are Basculin/Crawdaunt/Gumshoos too strong with Beedrillite?
Is Sharpedo being able to retain Speed Boost along with Mega Evolving worth more than having Strong Jaw and better defenses?
Is Mawilite Azumarill too good a combination of offense and defense?
Would anyone ever use Pidgeotite Machamp or Golurk?
smogon tiers don't do complex bans because it's a slippery slope, because if one complex ban is allowed it opens the door for random people shouting "Unban x while holding x" or "unban mega ray from holding items" which all are unnecessary and much too complicated for new players of the tier to understand and make the tier more uncompetitive as a whole. while in theory it would be nice to be able to unban these sort of things it just lowers the overall enjoyment of the tier
hope this clears it up and thank you for your interest in mix and mega :)
smogon tiers don't do complex bans because it's a slippery slope, because if one complex ban is allowed it opens the door for random people shouting "Unban x while holding x" or "unban mega ray from holding items" which all are unnecessary and much too complicated for new players of the tier to understand and make the tier more uncompetitive as a whole. while in theory it would be nice to be able to unban these sort of things it just lowers the overall enjoyment of the tier
hope this clears it up and thank you for your interest in mix and mega :)
It's not necessarily complex: when banning mega stones there's an understanding in most tiers that in-game mega evolutions are treated as separate Pokemon from their base forms and therefore aren't banned from use when their mega stone is banned from the tier, but I can understand how this could be thought of as complex
It's not necessarily complex: when banning mega stones there's an understanding in most tiers that in-game mega evolutions are treated as separate Pokemon from their base forms and therefore aren't banned from use when their mega stone is banned from the tier, but I can understand how this could be thought of as complex
It's totally a complex ban, actually. It's there because it's always been that way and was grandfathered in, but if we were making MnM right now it would almost certainly not be a thing.
It's totally a complex ban, actually. It's there because it's always been that way and was grandfathered in, but if we were making MnM right now it would almost certainly not be a thing.
As it stands, Mix and Mega allows all things that are legal in Ubers, unless it is explicitly banned like Shadow Tag, so I fail to see how allowing native users of an illegal stone would be considered a complex ban.
In official tiers, banning a stone implies that the corresponding Mega-Evolved Pokemon is banned. For example, Bisharp holding Metagrossite is legal in OU, but Metagross holding Metagrossite is illegal.
Mix and Mega operates on two separate layers, which entail maintaining an Ubers environment while attempting to raise the OU power bracket to match Ubers’ level via use of the stone mechanic.
Therefore, the logic for determining stone legality in Mix and Mega would go something like this:
Layer 1:
Check if base form is allowed to hold stones (so no Ubers unless explicitly unbanned like Genesect)
Check if stone is allowed.
Then Layer 2 may override the result in Layer 1:
Check if combination of illegal/legal base form + illegal/legal stone is allowed in Ubers
Check if combination of illegal/legal base form + illegal/legal stone is NOT explicitly banned in Mix and Mega (see Shadow Tag).
It’s odd to say that something like Mega Blaziken’s existence in Mix and Mega is complex considering it’s allowed in Ubers. Essentially, the Blazikenite ban entails that all form of Mega Blaziken (Blazikenite holders) are banned except the ones legal in Ubers.
Similarly, this logic can be used to explain why things like Primal Groudon or Primal Kyogre are allowed even though they are not allowed to Mega-Evolve; all forms of “Mega Groudon” and “Mega Kyogre” are banned except the ones legal in Ubers.
The nature of Mix and Mega is unconventional and unprecedented in traditional Smogon tiering, but it just seems strange how something intuitive could be considered complex; if it’s legal in Ubers, it’s legal in Mix and Mega.
As it stands, Mix and Mega allows all things that are legal in Ubers, unless it is explicitly banned like Shadow Tag, so I fail to see how allowing native users of an illegal stone would be considered a complex ban.
In official tiers, banning a stone implies that the corresponding Mega-Evolved Pokemon is banned. For example, Bisharp holding Metagrossite is legal in OU, but Metagross holding Metagrossite is illegal.
Mix and Mega operates on two separate layers, which entail maintaining an Ubers environment while attempting to raise the OU power bracket to match Ubers’ level via use of the stone mechanic.
Therefore, the logic for determining stone legality in Mix and Mega would go something like this:
Layer 1:
Check if base form is allowed to hold stones (so no Ubers unless explicitly unbanned like Genesect)
Check if stone is allowed.
Then Layer 2 may override the result in Layer 1:
Check if combination of illegal/legal base form + illegal/legal stone is allowed in Ubers
Check if combination of illegal/legal base form + illegal/legal stone is NOT explicitly banned in Mix and Mega (see Shadow Tag).
It’s odd to say that something like Mega Blaziken’s existence in Mix and Mega is complex considering it’s allowed in Ubers. Essentially, the Blazikenite ban entails that all form of Mega Blaziken (Blazikenite holders) are banned except the ones legal in Ubers.
Similarly, this logic can be used to explain why things like Primal Groudon or Primal Kyogre are allowed even though they are not allowed to Mega-Evolve; all forms of “Mega Groudon” and “Mega Kyogre” are banned except the ones legal in Ubers.
The nature of Mix and Mega is unconventional and unprecedented in traditional Smogon tiering, but it just seems strange how something intuitive could be considered complex; if it’s legal in Ubers, it’s legal in Mix and Mega.
This is a good argument; the problem is, this isnt true.
The fundemental conceit of mix and mega is that mega stones work on every qualifying Pokemon equally; metagrossite has the same effect on metagross as it does on bisharp, and that this is a game mechanic of MnM. Banning all stones except red orb is on Groudon is no different from banning all stones on Dragonite except Sharpednite; both are complex bans.
What you have is a decent description of the results, but as someone who was on the council when this happened, I can assure you that the reason was that the metagame had been this way.
Hi! Welcome back to another update! The council have voted on two aspects of the metagame: whether to potentially re-introduce Mega Gengar into the metagame via a suspect test and whether to remove the limit on which stage Pokemon can mega evolve. The results are listed here:
Firstly, we virtually unanimously voted against a potential re-introduction for Mega Gengar into the metagame. Multiple council reasonings are listed here, in order of submission:
After testing from members of the council, we came to the conclusion that with Mega Gengar's ability to trap bulkier pokemon with moves such as taunt disable perish song or destiny bond with little cost along with the ability to revenge slower sweepers and invalidate most forms of alt speed, Mega Gengar would be too unhealthy to the tier to be reintroduced
so my reasoning for abstaining here is that to get mgar into a healthy meta would be realistically too time constraining and impactful on the metagame to be worth it. at the same time however I do believe that mgar can very happily live in this metagame one day with how difficult it is to properly get such a threat in and how the meta revolves around pivots that can actually escape shadow tag. however, skillful play from both sides can kinda eliminate this problem, and especially from the likes of altspeed, a double would already capitalize too much for mgar to be considered healthy that way. simply put, the metagame effect and value that mgar could have on a team would be greater than anything we have seen, but honestly sometimes I do believe mgar plays an effective 5v6 game, especially versus hyper offense where it really depends on the shuckle user on how they want to lead. I believe that one day we could reintroduce mgar to the meta, but in the current stance of how it revolves around the big 3 and how it would end up changing that significantly would probably be the best reasoning I have to abstain.
Mega Gengar should not be tested for its ability to deal with problematic elements within the metagame. It should only be tested if its introduction into the metagame would not have a detrimental and/or negative impact itself. I do not believe Mega Gengar fits this criteria. Shadow Tag by itself is an unhealthy aspect of Pokemon, allowing Mega Gengar to trap a plethora of defensive Pokemon such as Blissey and Arceus-Fairy, removing an essential element of the game. If these Pokemon are seen as problematic elements, then they should be tested themselves. Mega Gengar should not.
Keeping Mega Gengar banned was an easy decision, in many ways. As a Pokemon, it offers little of value to the metagame, and will either be uncompetative or useless in almost any situation. Furthermore, Mega Gengar had survived even as long as it did only through complex bans; as an unrestricted stone, Gengarite clearly needed to go even more than shadow tag as a whole did, and on top of that we had already been forced to choose between allowing Sleeptrapping or propping it up with another complex ban. Overall, the merits of Mega Gengar are wholly insufficient to overturn the previous suspect.
In addition to this we also voted on the prospect of allowing any staged Pokemon to Mega Evolve. After a 4-1 vote and constant discussion over the previous month, we've come to the conclusion that there's not much reasoning to disallow these Pokemon from Mega Evolving. We've decided to allow LC & NFE Pokemon to Mega Evolve. Tagging The Immortal to remove the previous restriction placed on them, thank you!
Thanks to everyone for your posts since the last announcement. Feel free to post your opinions on this change, what should happen within the metagame and even potential mega-NFE sets if you think something could be viable over its full evolution. As always I look forward to seeing your posts.
Hi! Welcome back to another update! The council have voted on two aspects of the metagame: whether to potentially re-introduce Mega Gengar into the metagame via a suspect test and whether to remove the limit on which stage Pokemon can mega evolve. The results are listed here:
Firstly, we virtually unanimously voted against a potential re-introduction for Mega Gengar into the metagame. Multiple council reasonings are listed here, in order of submission:
In addition to this we also voted on the prospect of allowing any staged Pokemon to Mega Evolve. After a 4-1 vote and constant discussion over the previous month, we've come to the conclusion that there's not much reasoning to disallow these Pokemon from Mega Evolving. We've decided to allow LC & NFE Pokemon to Mega Evolve. Tagging The Immortal to remove the previous restriction placed on them, thank you!
Thanks to everyone for your posts since the last announcement. Feel free to post your opinions on this change, what should happen within the metagame and even potential mega-NFE sets if you think something could be viable over its full evolution. As always I look forward to seeing your posts.
Probably none, since NFE/LC pokemons have worse stats that fully evolved one.
Maaaaybe something like more bulky nfe pokemons that their evolved counterparts? But i don't recall any, without eviolite.
Get ready for the memes, my fellow pokemon trainers.
most NFEs are strictly outclassed but Doublade adds a solid check to Terrakion within the metagame, while other NFEs like Porygon2 and Type: Null (a worse Silvally but can slow U-Turn) could potentially have use
Gonna use this post to make another point I saw someone ask in the OM room: The purpose of this unban was not to introduce new viable Pokémon into the meta (though it will be nice to see if Doublade will hold up). The reasoning behind the council's decision was that this ban has been in place since Mix and Mega's infancy, but there were no reasons to continue restricting 50% of Pokémon from mega evolving. While Chazm did disagree because he believes that it doesn't follow the rules of mega evolution, but the rest of the council was in agreement that either A) This isn't exactly relevant as almost everything in Mix and Mega doesn't follow the rules of mega evolution or that B) this change is so small that it doesn't cause any problems.
TL;DR This unban is most likely going to be insignificant on the meta and was only put in place to have less restriction on the tier, don't look too deep into it
