M&M Mix and Mega

Chazm

unspecified destination
is a Pre-Contributor
This thread hasn't had proper discussion in a while, so I'll take this post to talk about two elements I think are currently causing some unhealthiness in the metagame:

Zeraora

:sm/zeraora:

Zeraora, for me, is the biggest problem that currently resides in the metagame. Counterplay appears to be decent to this Pokemon until you notice that set versatility is far beyond what most Pokemon in the current metagame can claim right now. First of all, access to Volt Switch means that it's an absolutely incredible momentum grab for teams, quickly chipping down checks like Mew and Clefable either through continual cycles into entry hazards, or through team support, such as Chandelure, Rotom-Heat and Specs Lunala. Secondly, it only has to dedicate two moveslots to Plasma Fists and Close Combat, which means that the third and fourth slot can cause a lot more problems due to Zeraora's already restricting STAB combination. But the worst part I have about Zeraora is this: its set variation.

Lopunnite

Lopunnite Zeraora is a fairly predictable beast, but one that is all the more consistent at being very annoying for both offensive and defensive counterplay. It's an excellent Toxic spreader at the moment because it's either going to be forcing momentum onto Clef due to utilizing both Toxic and Volt Switch as free moveslots, and team support being able to counteract current Clefable + Corviknight + Toxapex balances, such as Chandelure, Rotom-Heat and Salazzle make this all the more difficult for checks to avoid being worn down by consistent residual damage. Actually getting momentum from Zeraora is extremely difficult because of this - only a few checks, such as Pinsirite Rhyperior and Sablenite Hippowdon can properly voltblock Zeraora and stop it from switching into a breaker such as Kyurem and Specs Lunala which could give these Pokemon a lot of issues. The sheer power that Lopunnite Zeraora has immediately to it is at such a degree that very few Pokemon can actually live it as a revenge killer, and this seriously hurts offensive builds in the current metagame, as it either forces momentum losing Pokemon like Pinsirite Rhyperior, thus losing the precious stone for something like Lucario, or outright forces a faster Zeraora, which, safe to say isn't really a sign of health for Zeraora in the metagame.

Metagrossite

Metagrossite Zeraora acts slightly differently to Lopunnite Zeraora but with two notable differences - its second and fourth move are much more dangerous to get wrong, as it is capable of utilizing Play Rough and Grass Knot much more effectively, which means that Pokemon like Clefable and Sablenite Hippowdon are unsafe without proper scouting. Whilst checks like bulky CM Lunala, Manectite Mew and Excadrill are common on teams, their lack of capability to leave Volt Switch unpunished makes them exploitable by proper teammates, and due to a general lack of defensive counterplay in Sword and Shield, this can leave teams feeling incomplete and unable to handle the pool of available breakers. Neutrality or resistance to Extreme Speed also means that checking this Zeraora is a lot harder for offensive builds utilizing Arcanine or Lucario as their revenge killers. And due to only one Pokemon in the entire metagame being faster than it, this can make it an absolute headache to deal with lategame.

Pinsirite

And finally, I come to possibly the worst (or best, depending on context) offender of the three mainly used stones. Whilst Pinsirite doesn't have the same initial power as Lopunnite or the capability to grab momentum that Metagrossite has, it does have the ability to push through counters much quicker. It also has the capability to outright punish some Pokemon, like Will-o-Wisp Mew due to an Aerilate-boosted Facade. Very few teams actually have true answers to Pinsirite Zeraora right now because of this problem, not only because the pool of them is basically limited to revenge killing, a faster Zeraora, or hoping that Pinsirite Zeraora has the right move through a combination of checks (Manectite Mew + Tyranitarite Rhyperior, Rotom-Heat + Manectite Mew, etc), but it is because of the metagame instability that the other checks and Lunala cause that prevent other defensive Pokemon from being able to be utilized against Pinsirite as a check. This exploits the problem that Zeraora causes.

Overall, whilst one of the three sets would probably be manageable, all three of these existing in the same metagame is too much for me to handle. Whilst I think that Zeraora is easily the more broken of the two due to its lack of both offensive AND defensive counterplay, I am in belief that there is another problem with the metagame that may need to be addressed after suspecting Zeraora:

Lunala

:sm/lunala:

Lunala is easily the best abuser of the metagame being cold to Dark-types as the prevalence of Zeraora as well as inclusion of good Fairy types and Pixilate Extreme Speed give all defensive Dark types a problem - they will always end up losing momentum to one of the above if they are present on the opposing team, or they cannot handle Lunala for a long enough time to be suitable as a counter. This general lack of high viability counterplay can make Lunala frustrating to deal with, and ESPECIALLY so when combined with another Ghost-type. As with Zeraora, it also has some problems with a lack of good scouting options for sets, and thus I would like to go through why each part is a problem element:

Bulky CM + Roost /w Leftovers

This set was only very recently discovered, but it's shown miles of irritation for bulky offense as it is barely able to actually kill Lunala due to a lack of a status inflicting pivot that can reliably take Moongeist Beams, and thus will be able to get multiple boosts without actually being harmed. The problem I find with this Lunala is that a lot of checks to it tend to be lower on the viability side, and despite being good Pokemon as they are, they either do not last long enough or end up going into sack counterplay. For more balanced teams however, I feel like this Lunala is not actually as big of a problem as it is made out to be, as walls like Gastrodon, specially defensive Toxapex, and Mandibuzz can be used to effectively take on this set. However, it becomes significantly worse to deal with overall when Choice Specs is added into the equation:

Choice Specs

Choice Specs is frustrating because it is quite a hit and miss mon - it sometimes lacks the power to get important 2HKOs on pivots like Corviknight and Mandibuzz, but due to it being very close to getting one and the fact that there aren't really that many answers to it outside of these that don't rely on an incorrect prediction means that Specs Lunala is very much capable of claiming one Pokemon on bulky offense teams at least, mostly from the surprise of the set. However, it does have problems that CM + Roost does not have, and that mainly lies in its longevity - without a reliable way to restore Shadow Shield without choice locking into a passive move, Specs Lunala finds it considerably harder to switch in outside of the first time, which can make it difficult to use against teams with a hard answer. The sheer pressure of this when combined with the likelyhood of the other set can really make counterplay a bit nightmarish in the teambuilder as more niche answers like Incineroar, Tyranitar and Rhyperior are no longer guaranteed, and this is what I feel makes Lunala a suspectable Pokemon.

I personally feel like other sets actually have a more healthy impact on the metagame: defensive Lunala is actually an excellent form of counterplay against teams without a cleric - mostly due to its newfound access to Hex in Sword and Shield, and CM + Roost Lunala when combined with any other item isn't as threatening due to the lack of counterplay against a pivot + revenge killer (such as Lucarionite Chandelure, Incineroar, and some physical attackers like Tyranitarite Terrakion). The importance of a bulky attacker in a metagame such as this one I feel is a great addition to the metagame as it helps bulky offense from either having a lack of options or being overwhelmed by breakers, and thus I would rather keep Lunala from being suspected first.

This metagame has been pretty fun so far but I can see that post-Gengar we already have some major issues with how teams are handling Pokemon and this has been making builds either extremely generic or extremely wacky / matchup fishing as a result. I hope this post at least gives some insight into what I am currently experiencing and I hope this can somewhat translate over to others.
 
I hope people who read this won't assume this post is some reactionary salt to the replay Fardin posted above as i've been telling a few people I was planning on making this post before I prepped and played this week. I've been talking to quite a few people who have been playing Mix and Mega in OMPL and just play the tier for fun when they can as well and unfortunately, there seems to be a fairly consistent consensus on where we as a collective group stand... Mix and Mega is not very fun. I've been playing this tier for a little over two years now and I don't think things have ever been as bad as they are right now. There have never been so many problematic mons that do various different problematic things before. For the past few weeks, I came up with a list of things I think are problematic in the tier in order that I titled "The 6 Deadly Sins of MnM" (yes, I know there are 7 and I considered coming up with a 7th just to fit the theme properly). I hope that my thoughts on each of these "6 sins" sparks more discussion on the forum about these mons and maybe other issues in the metagame.

The First Sin: Lunala:lunala:
Surprise! I think this thing is 100% the biggest problem with the meta at the moment. The dynamic of Lunala has changed quite a bit from Gen 7 where people already thought it was a borderline bannable threat at some stages. We thought the removal of its Z-move would limit it but it actually opened up a whole new toolbox of possibilities for this mon. The biggest issue with Lunala is that it does too much too well too consistently. It blanket checks a massive range of physical threats, spinblocks excadrill builds, and possesses unparalleled cleaning potential. It is everything we hated about Lunala in gen 7 and worse Dark-types are worse and more sparse than ever, Pursuit is gone, and Lunala's utilization of items allows it to effortlessly muscle past builds people assume can handle it.

Mandibuzz is a perfect example of a mon people assume checks Lunala not being able to check Lunala. Metronome has the potential to straight up power through Mandibuzz but the more difficult set is Rocky Helmet where Lunala runs enough defense investment to take 50% or less from Foul Play under Shadow Shield and damages Mandibuzz with Helmet until it is forced to roost or die to +1 Moonblast and when that happens it Calm Minds again and wins. Another particularly horrible Lunala set to face right now is bulky Calm Mind Leftovers. The idea behind this set is to have enough defense investment to return to full HP after a Corviknight U-turns. This destroys the strategy or using Corviknight to pivot into a mon that can properly revenge Lunala.

As you can see in the replay above, Stresh just led with his Lunala on my Corviknight, CM'd on the pivot, easily lived my Adaptability Chandelure Shadow Ball at +1 Sp Def, killed it, and the game was essentially over at that point. There are multiple other replays that I will include of this set in action because I keep seeing this Lunala just come in and 6-0 teams making me believe it to be the most oppressive Lunala set right now and forces Gyaradosite Toxapex, Aggronite Mandibuzz, or a softer check like Incineroar or Tyranitar on every team. Prepping for this mon is that much worse because the most effective way of offensively checking it isn't practical anymore. Am I ever going to bring Corviknight/Chandelure and hope that handles Lunala in the future? Absolutely not because there's that chance that I just lose to Lefties Lunala on preview and I think pretty much anyone playing MnM would agree with that. So the mere existence of Lefties Lunala has completely invalidated the idea of running something besides a Dark-type to defensively check it besides maybe Banettite Toxapex and it's possible for Lunala to run a secondary Psychic move to blow past that as well. I believe there is still room for this mon to adapt to the meta even more as it seems whenever the meta tries to adapt to handle it better, Lunala finds some new set or spread to exploit the common counterplay and power through teams.

Last of all, there is the elephant in the room related to Lunala... Specs Lunala. This set largely goes under the radar because the others I mentioned are so oppressive but this set is an overlooked menace mainly because there is absolutely no counter available in the entire meta besides Gyaradosite Toxapex and Aggronite Mandibuzz if you want to count that. It 2HKO's soft checks like Corviknight and Banettite Toxapex and has the potential to lure Incineroar and Tyranitar with Focus Blast. I think it's the worst Lunala set because of no defensive utility or recovery but the fact remains that this set is still around to remind us that our Sablenite Corviknight Banettite Toxapex teams aren't safe and can and will get blown away by a Specs Moongeist.

All of this is to say that Lunala does way too many different game changing things way too well and has exceptionally limited counterplay. I think it is easily the worst thing about this meta there are also additional details like it being so easy to pair with other top threats like Zeraora, Arcanine, Lucario, etc this mon is unbelievably splashable and horrible to handle in every way. Speaking of Zeraora, on to the second sin.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8mixandmega-1103938822 (I get absolutely demolished by a cm lefties Lunala when my main counterplay is pivoting from Corviknight into Luarionite Chandelure)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8mixandmega-1099075859 (Similar idea lefties Lunala gets back to full on Corvi U-turn and Ditto can't revenge and dies)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8mixandmega-1091553200 (Lefties Lunala singlehandedly destroying another team relying on Corviknight pivot to check it)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8mixandmega-1102234199-tym7mmk2gcxj33stc6kal2hg2ct9ksxpw (Lefties Lunala once again 6-0ing a team from preview)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8mixandmega-1103760618 (Specs Lunala easily breaks the Banettite Pex Corviknight core and Helmet Lunala wins the game from preview because the only defensive answer is Mandibuzz and it is running max speed Timid while specs Lunala is running Modest... This is not the first game i've seen where Lunala speed investment determine the winner)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8mixandmega-1103204062 (Lunala spin blocks Latiosite Excadrill and hazards remain because there is no other way to get them off. This scenario is a lot more practical in the case of Clefable setting Rocks and then Lunala preventing Exca from spinning them but this replay still shows how hard it is for the Excadrill user)
The Second Sin: Zeraora:zeraora:
Zeraora is unbelievably annoying to deal with. It doesn't matter if you have multiple checks like Clefable and Manectite Mew, this mon will find a way to Taunt, Pivot around, or lure your counterplay with one of its three sets. I find Zeraora the most enjoyable mon to use right now simply because unlike Lunala it usually requires significant outplaying and clever play to get around cores that answer it well. However, the fact that it has the ability to get around these cores in the first place is certainly fairly problematic and can make dealing with this mon unbelievably frustrating.

Zeraora generates momentum exceptionally quickly mainly by threatening Corviknight and then pivoting into another breaker. There are a ton of nasty offensive cores with Zeraora but it works with an unbelievable amount of stuff Lunala, Noivern, Kyurem, Chandelure, Excadrill, Necrozma-DM, etc. Taunt is a particularly annoying option at Zeraora's disposal that forces Manectite Mew, Lunala, and Clefable to think twice before recovering and i've seen some particularly horrible turns result from how much pressure this puts on defensive cores. I mentioned this before, but I think it's problematic when Taunt Lopunnite Zeraora is continually harassing Manectite Mew Clefable builds.

Recently, Metagrossite Zeraora has been catching on and it's an absolute menace to build for mostly because it has the ability to lure Clefable with Play Rough, Hippowdon wishing to block its Volt Switch with Grass Knot, while still being able to pivot around defensive cores. It also has 511 speed and is the fastest mon in the meta besides the uncommon Diancite Dragapult so you can revenge the slightly slower Lopunnite Zeraora. Overall, this set adds additional mindgames when one sees a Zeraora on preview because it is capable of busting open defensive cores that handle Lopunnite and still consistently doing what Zeraora does best which is stealing momentum and controlling the flow of the game.

There is also coincidentally an elephant in the room for Zeraora... Pinsirite Zeraora. Pinsirite was the only stone that was used on this mon in gen 7 and we thought it was all but gone with the removal of Return. However, Chazm pointed out a particular set with Bulk Up / Plasma Fists / Mega Kick / Facade and the more I thought about it the more I realized this set has the potential to lure and tear open a significant portion of the Zeraora checks and counters like Will-O-Wisp Manectite Mew, Lunala, and Clefable. Those are the three most splashable Zeraora counters all getting lured and losing to this mon. Again, look at the replay above Stresh and my teams are both very threatened by this set. There are obviously significant downsides to running this as well, Rhyperior, Tyranitar, and Hippowdon all wall it, it is slower than Lopunnite and Metagrossite Zeraora which ironically means it is susceptible to getting revenged by them after some prior chip, and it can't generate momentum with Volt Switch. However, this set has the potential to catch off guard and cause extensive damage in very little time and adds to the unpredictability of building and playing this mon.

There is a particularly infamous core involving Zeraora that consistently harasses and constrains the meta. It is very simple to use and it always sucks to face. I will explain what this core is and why it's so horrible to deal with as I introduce the next sin.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8mixandmega-1103131831 (Skysolo thinks Multi is Lopunnite Zeraora and gets his Arcanine lured by Metagrossite Zeraora and Taunt Lopunnite Zeraora forces Manectite Mew into horrible late game mindgames)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8mixandmega-1087546835 (Taunt Lopunnite Zeraora harassing one of its best counters in Clefable)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8mixandmega-1099627367 (Pinsirite Zeraora lures a Clefable and proceeds to shred half of Fardin's team because he didn't realize it didn't have Close Combat for Rhyperior)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8mixandmega-1099001653-pho5ko7cm6znsnr147jqxksjod9xmwjpw (Facade Pinsirite Zeraora capitalizes on Wisp Mew)
The Third Sin: Clefable:clefable:
Although Lunala and Zeraora are both horrible to play in their own way, there is nothing I hate more in this meta than Clefable. With Mold Breaker Stealth Rock on a mon with solid bulk, fantastic typing, and cleric Clef is easily the most obnoxious support mon i've ever seen. There is nothing one can do to stop it from setting up Rocks. They will always go up and that dynamic alone provides an exceptional amount of free turns. However, it is likely the biggest constraint on teams because the hazard removal options that also force out Clef are limited to Steel move Corviknight and Excadrill. I feel you absolutely have to have one of these two mons on your team right now otherwise Clef will be unbelievably oppressive and Rocks will almost certainly stay.

Remember that "infamous core" I mentioned that is horrible to face every game? Well because of the constrained nature of Clefable counterplay, Zeraora is the best offensive partner Clefable could ask for. When playing Corviknight teams, it's a very simple dynamic, Clef comes in and sets Rocks the turn Corviknight switches in hoping to Defog the following turn, Clefable switches into Zeraora on the Defog, Corviknight has to run for its life or risk taking enormous chip from Plasma Fists, the Zeraora user either attacks or Volt Switches out for momentum, etc. The cycle happens so often that Zeraora has a ton of opportunities to come in and harass teams and with Taunt, Toxic, and Volt Switch and there really isn't any room to play around the dynamic because the alternative is allowing Clefable to have Rocks which would likely lead to even more problems in the long run. I've been desperately searching for possible solutions to this mon besides this extremely limited counterplay but I haven't had much success and it seems others aren't either.

This mon was on EVERY. SINGLE. TEAM. Week 1 of OMPL and it was on the vast majority of teams week 2 as well because it's just that easy to throw a Clef on a build and have the best and most consistent Rocks in the metagame, the only really great defensive Hydreigon and a great check to Lopunnite Zeraora as well, and a cleric all in one. I think the most infuriating thing about Clef is that you know it will be on 90% of the teams and you know exactly what you have to do to limit it as best as you can... the issue is it isn't enough it's still always annoying it still always harasses your team and it still forces you into uncomfortable situations when you have to repeatedly defog with Corviknight or spin with Excadrill. The meta has quickly developed into packing a Ghost-type alongside Clefable so that Excadrill without an ate stone can't spin so if you are running a different stone on Excadrill dual hazard removal is all but mandatory and that is very impractical. Lunala is unbelievably splashable right now so it's simple to throw a Clefable and Lunala on a team and make all those non Ate Excas miserable.

Last of all, Clefable is one of two primary offenders that stretches out games into long awkward PP stall stalemates. This is because Heal Bell is such a get out of jail free card for mons that would otherwise be crippled for entire games and thus erases highly valuable progress. Did your Arcanine or Zeraora get a Toxic off on Mew or Lunala? Did you manage to burn that pesky Toxapex or Corviknight? Well that's too bad because Clefable just came in on one of your passive mons and cured all of it. Then we're right back to spamming Scald and hoping for another burn so that Clef is forced to Heal Bell again. It can be a slow, painful process and it honestly rewards sloppy play as well because letting your Zeraora get burned or your Manectite Mew get Toxic'd isn't an issue when you have that Heal Bell in the back. It is also yet another extremely valuable aspect of Clef's toolkit that motivates people to put it on every team. If you are running Manectite Mew as your Arcanine check, you could run a supporting Magic Bouncer... you could do that... or you could slap the Clefable on your team like always that would probably be a bit easier wouldn't it?
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8mixandmega-1098927756 (Redflix's wincons don't break through and the game devolves into stale Clefable Corviknight Toxapex Pivot/PP stall shenanigans)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8mixandmega-1086470710-tyo0e4g7yjd5fa201f7g8qcz2u0udwkpw (Example of how terrible Clef can be to face when there isn't a Defog Corviknight or an Excadrill to remove Rocks)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8mixandmega-1100966743 (Defog Mew showing how inadequate it is at remove Clefable Rocks because Clefable keeps coming back in on the Defog and setting them again. Well... that's what should have happened but Pigeons messed around and didn't do that smh Pigeons)
The Fourth Sin: Kyurem:kyurem:
Oh boy this is a weird one. I think it's important to mention that I view #4-6 as a significant step down in how problematic they are to the meta. Despite that, Kyurem is absolutely horrible to build for. Nothing and I mean NOTHING switches in to this mon comfortably and by comfortably I mean you go into your Sablenite Corviknight, take 37-44 from Ice Beam, and then pray you don't get frozen while you spam Roost until you can U-turn out. If it decides to Ice Beam the turn you U-turn you can't switch that in again until you Roost on something else. Kyurem is bulky enough to where if Corviknight tries to Iron head it takes under half and can easily just Roost that damage itself. Recently i've resorted to running Venusaurite Corviknight on teams without the Sablenite.

Sablenite is a vastly superior stone on Corviknight in pretty much every way... except for this particular matchup and it doesn't even help that much it just makes it so that you can switch in and Roost a bit less and thus minimize the risk of getting frozen by a bit less. You still do well under half with Iron Head so it's not like you actually force Kyurem out if it doesn't want to go. Basically the only real "answer" to Kyurem is packing heavy offensive pressure, usually Lopunnite Zeraora and praying your team doesn't let it in enough to let it really tear you apart or you get some hard turns right switching in with Arcanine if you have one. It's one of those things you're always scared of when building because you probably don't have a good answer to it and you just kinda have to hope for the best a lot of the time...
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8mixandmega-1098987198-fvu225rtdaacqm8q0e7xi43zw7ians4pw (Kyurem does stupid Kyurem things and freezes the only check and then sweeps)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8mixandmega-1102828168 (Sub Kyurem gets a few opportunities to freeze the Lunala, gets it quickly, and would have likely won the game if it continued. I think this replay also does a good job showing how constrained teams can look at times 5/6 mons are identical on both teams)
The Fifth Sin: Corviknight:corviknight:
Originally Corviknight was #4 on my list but I feel teams are adapting to it quite hard recently so it is struggling to function a bit more. That presents its own problem because bad Corviknight means even more annoying Clefable but Corviknight is on this list for really one main reason... It is the second mon alongside Clefable that stretches games into dull stalemates and erases hard earned progress by repeatedly coming in on the entirety of the defensive metagame, Roosting, and pivoting back out. Sablenite Corviknight eats almost every single hit that is thrown its way it doesn't matter if it's STAB, super effective, it lives it all. It can tank a Zeraora Plasma Fists, pivot out, come back in on Toxapex, Mew, or even Clefable if it's desperate, and erase all of that hard-earned chip just because you had to go into your defensive mon. I have seen Corviknights not mega in certain matchups and stick around to slowly PP stall opposing bulky balance teams. It is an exceptionally hard mon to kill and it has the ability to beat Clef, pivot on the majority of the metagame, and steal momentum almost any turn it wishes even if there is something that heavily chips it. It is another member of the "why not use this extremely splashable and easy to use pokemon" club
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8mixandmega-1099075859 (I already shared this replay but this is an example of Corviknight not megaing for the majority of a game to try and PP stall with Pressure)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8mixandmega-1087546835 (Again, I already shared this one too but the beginning of this serves as a good example of how easy it is to Roost back up with Corviknight after taking massive chip from Zeraora turn 1 particularly in combo with a mon like Clefable that forces free turns with Stealth Rock. I also let my Gengar go in exchange for heavy chip on Corviknight a second time and it effortlessly comes back again)
The Sixth Sin: Bulky Sablenite Set Up:mew::hippowdon:
The last sin is a bit of a different case as rather than not just being one mon, it is a particular archetype of bulky attackers that create some really horrible matchup dynamics in the meta. The main two Sablenite set up i'm referring to here is Calm Mind Mew and Curse Hippowdon but Gastrodon can do a bit of this as well with Amnesia if the opposing team can't kill it after it boosts its Sp Def. These mons are a very awkward thing to prep for because... they don't seem that threatening up front and many times people don't realize how fast the situation can snowball if they aren't ready. They're also incredibly bulky pokemon with Magic Bounce so... how do you muscle past that? Mold Breaker guys? Clef can't do anything and Gyaradosite Pex and Tyranitar beat mew but not Hippo.

I think the best and most splashable solution is bulky CM Lefties Lunala it is bulky enough to easily eat hits from Hippo and Mew and can set up alongside them and beat both. However, Mew eats Modest Moongeist Beam at +1 Sp Def and thus gets multiple opportunities to Scald burn Lunala which is a serious detriment for its effectiveness in games. Overall, these mons function in a very bizarre way in the meta. However, I have boosted up to +2 Sp Def vs Lunala and Hydreigon teams and suddenly Dark Pulse and Moongeist Beam aren't doing enough and i'm sitting in front of the strongest offensive Dark and Ghost types in the meta overwhelming it with my Mew. The same goes for hippo if you don't have a strong special attacker to immediately hammer it and prevent it from setting up, you're more than likely just sunk no amount of Manectite Mew and Corviknight pivoting is going to save you from boosted Body Presses and Earthquakes from an already obscenely bulky mon growing progressively bulkier.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8mixandmega-1100963343 (Not the best example of Sablenite set up in action, but this is one of those games where Volkner's team isn't properly prepared for Amnesia Gastrodon and it just kinda comes in, sets up an Amnesia, and sits around for most of the game clicking Scald and Toxic)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8mixandmega-1088504738 (Sablenite Mew had the 6-0 if Gman had been a bit more stubborn with recovering before killing the Corviknight. It didn't get the sweep but I think this replays shows how fast Mew snowballs against unprepared teams. As an additional bonus you see an Imprison Payback Lucarionite Gengar beating a Gyaradosite Toxapex!)

So the question is, what do we do about all of this? Unfortunately, it's hard to say because almost everyone agrees MnM isn't cutting it right now but disagree what the problem is. Most seem to really dislike Lunala and Zeraora those are definitely the primary two targets that people just want gone. If I had to choose something to ban my vote is for Lunala. For a time I thought Zeraora was the best mon in the meta and I still feel it is a top threat that is potentially problematic every game. But I think it is extremely apparent that Zeraora checks are much easier to fit than Lunala and I also think the potential Lunala has to blow open games with the right set far surpasses Zeraora's alongside Lunala's utility on both the defensive and offensive spectrum whereas Zeraora is a usually a solely offensive pokemon besides maybe Pinsirite.

This last point is somewhat objective but I also think the ease of use is significantly in Lunala's favor over Zeraora. Yes, Volt Switch, Taunt, and Toxic can all bother counters and open games for Zeraora but the difference is that if Zeraora Toxic's into Sablenite Corviknight predicting Mew the turn Corivknight decides to U-turn, or tries to Taunt the Clefable the turn Clefable predicts that and just kills it, that's a huge setback. But with Lunala, the ease of use is extremely apparent. You saw it yourself from replays there are multiple high profile games where Lunala gets to come in, click Calm Mind with no fear, and win the game because it has the right set and it should never be that easy for Zeraora. Lunala is also so bulky that at times it can afford to eat a bit hit in exchange for chip and then come back later against Mew, Clefable or Corviknight. I think something should be done soon because there's a lot of problems and I don't think a lot of people who previously loved MnM are enjoying themselves right now.
 
Last edited:
Last edited:

xavgb

:xavgb:
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
OM Grand Slam Winner
This thread hasn't had proper discussion in a while, so I'll take this post to talk about two elements I think are currently causing some unhealthiness in the metagame:

Zeraora

:sm/zeraora:

Zeraora, for me, is the biggest problem that currently resides in the metagame. Counterplay appears to be decent to this Pokemon until you notice that set versatility is far beyond what most Pokemon in the current metagame can claim right now. First of all, access to Volt Switch means that it's an absolutely incredible momentum grab for teams, quickly chipping down checks like Mew and Clefable either through continual cycles into entry hazards, or through team support, such as Chandelure, Rotom-Heat and Specs Lunala. Secondly, it only has to dedicate two moveslots to Plasma Fists and Close Combat, which means that the third and fourth slot can cause a lot more problems due to Zeraora's already restricting STAB combination. But the worst part I have about Zeraora is this: its set variation.

Lopunnite

Lopunnite Zeraora is a fairly predictable beast, but one that is all the more consistent at being very annoying for both offensive and defensive counterplay. It's an excellent Toxic spreader at the moment because it's either going to be forcing momentum onto Clef due to utilizing both Toxic and Volt Switch as free moveslots, and team support being able to counteract current Clefable + Corviknight + Toxapex balances, such as Chandelure, Rotom-Heat and Salazzle make this all the more difficult for checks to avoid being worn down by consistent residual damage. Actually getting momentum from Zeraora is extremely difficult because of this - only a few checks, such as Pinsirite Rhyperior and Sablenite Hippowdon can properly voltblock Zeraora and stop it from switching into a breaker such as Kyurem and Specs Lunala which could give these Pokemon a lot of issues. The sheer power that Lopunnite Zeraora has immediately to it is at such a degree that very few Pokemon can actually live it as a revenge killer, and this seriously hurts offensive builds in the current metagame, as it either forces momentum losing Pokemon like Pinsirite Rhyperior, thus losing the precious stone for something like Lucario, or outright forces a faster Zeraora, which, safe to say isn't really a sign of health for Zeraora in the metagame.

Metagrossite

Metagrossite Zeraora acts slightly differently to Lopunnite Zeraora but with two notable differences - its second and fourth move are much more dangerous to get wrong, as it is capable of utilizing Play Rough and Grass Knot much more effectively, which means that Pokemon like Clefable and Sablenite Hippowdon are unsafe without proper scouting. Whilst checks like bulky CM Lunala, Manectite Mew and Excadrill are common on teams, their lack of capability to leave Volt Switch unpunished makes them exploitable by proper teammates, and due to a general lack of defensive counterplay in Sword and Shield, this can leave teams feeling incomplete and unable to handle the pool of available breakers. Neutrality or resistance to Extreme Speed also means that checking this Zeraora is a lot harder for offensive builds utilizing Arcanine or Lucario as their revenge killers. And due to only one Pokemon in the entire metagame being faster than it, this can make it an absolute headache to deal with lategame.

Pinsirite

And finally, I come to possibly the worst (or best, depending on context) offender of the three mainly used stones. Whilst Pinsirite doesn't have the same initial power as Lopunnite or the capability to grab momentum that Metagrossite has, it does have the ability to push through counters much quicker. It also has the capability to outright punish some Pokemon, like Will-o-Wisp Mew due to an Aerilate-boosted Facade. Very few teams actually have true answers to Pinsirite Zeraora right now because of this problem, not only because the pool of them is basically limited to revenge killing, a faster Zeraora, or hoping that Pinsirite Zeraora has the right move through a combination of checks (Manectite Mew + Tyranitarite Rhyperior, Rotom-Heat + Manectite Mew, etc), but it is because of the metagame instability that the other checks and Lunala cause that prevent other defensive Pokemon from being able to be utilized against Pinsirite as a check. This exploits the problem that Zeraora causes.

Overall, whilst one of the three sets would probably be manageable, all three of these existing in the same metagame is too much for me to handle. Whilst I think that Zeraora is easily the more broken of the two due to its lack of both offensive AND defensive counterplay, I am in belief that there is another problem with the metagame that may need to be addressed after suspecting Zeraora:

Lunala

:sm/lunala:

Lunala is easily the best abuser of the metagame being cold to Dark-types as the prevalence of Zeraora as well as inclusion of good Fairy types and Pixilate Extreme Speed give all defensive Dark types a problem - they will always end up losing momentum to one of the above if they are present on the opposing team, or they cannot handle Lunala for a long enough time to be suitable as a counter. This general lack of high viability counterplay can make Lunala frustrating to deal with, and ESPECIALLY so when combined with another Ghost-type. As with Zeraora, it also has some problems with a lack of good scouting options for sets, and thus I would like to go through why each part is a problem element:

Bulky CM + Roost /w Leftovers

This set was only very recently discovered, but it's shown miles of irritation for bulky offense as it is barely able to actually kill Lunala due to a lack of a status inflicting pivot that can reliably take Moongeist Beams, and thus will be able to get multiple boosts without actually being harmed. The problem I find with this Lunala is that a lot of checks to it tend to be lower on the viability side, and despite being good Pokemon as they are, they either do not last long enough or end up going into sack counterplay. For more balanced teams however, I feel like this Lunala is not actually as big of a problem as it is made out to be, as walls like Gastrodon, specially defensive Toxapex, and Mandibuzz can be used to effectively take on this set. However, it becomes significantly worse to deal with overall when Choice Specs is added into the equation:

Choice Specs

Choice Specs is frustrating because it is quite a hit and miss mon - it sometimes lacks the power to get important 2HKOs on pivots like Corviknight and Mandibuzz, but due to it being very close to getting one and the fact that there aren't really that many answers to it outside of these that don't rely on an incorrect prediction means that Specs Lunala is very much capable of claiming one Pokemon on bulky offense teams at least, mostly from the surprise of the set. However, it does have problems that CM + Roost does not have, and that mainly lies in its longevity - without a reliable way to restore Shadow Shield without choice locking into a passive move, Specs Lunala finds it considerably harder to switch in outside of the first time, which can make it difficult to use against teams with a hard answer. The sheer pressure of this when combined with the likelyhood of the other set can really make counterplay a bit nightmarish in the teambuilder as more niche answers like Incineroar, Tyranitar and Rhyperior are no longer guaranteed, and this is what I feel makes Lunala a suspectable Pokemon.

I personally feel like other sets actually have a more healthy impact on the metagame: defensive Lunala is actually an excellent form of counterplay against teams without a cleric - mostly due to its newfound access to Hex in Sword and Shield, and CM + Roost Lunala when combined with any other item isn't as threatening due to the lack of counterplay against a pivot + revenge killer (such as Lucarionite Chandelure, Incineroar, and some physical attackers like Tyranitarite Terrakion). The importance of a bulky attacker in a metagame such as this one I feel is a great addition to the metagame as it helps bulky offense from either having a lack of options or being overwhelmed by breakers, and thus I would rather keep Lunala from being suspected first.

This metagame has been pretty fun so far but I can see that post-Gengar we already have some major issues with how teams are handling Pokemon and this has been making builds either extremely generic or extremely wacky / matchup fishing as a result. I hope this post at least gives some insight into what I am currently experiencing and I hope this can somewhat translate over to others.
I hope people who read this won't assume this post is some reactionary salt to the replay Fardin posted above as i've been telling a few people I was planning on making this post before I prepped and played this week. I've been talking to quite a few people who have been playing Mix and Mega in OMPL and just play the tier for fun when they can as well and unfortunately, there seems to be a fairly consistent consensus on where we as a collective group stand... Mix and Mega is not very fun. I've been playing this tier for a little over two years now and I don't think things have ever been as bad as they are right now. There have never been so many problematic mons that do various different problematic things before. For the past few weeks, I came up with a list of things I think are problematic in the tier in order that I titled "The 6 Deadly Sins of MnM" (yes, I know there are 7 and I considered coming up with a 7th just to fit the theme properly). I hope that my thoughts on each of these "6 sins" sparks more discussion on the forum about these mons and maybe other issues in the metagame.

The First Sin: Lunala:lunala:
Surprise! I think this thing is 100% the biggest problem with the meta at the moment. The dynamic of Lunala has changed quite a bit from Gen 7 where people already thought it was a borderline bannable threat at some stages. We thought the removal of its Z-move would limit it but it actually opened up a whole new toolbox of possibilities for this mon. The biggest issue with Lunala is that it does too much too well too consistently. It blanket checks a massive range of physical threats, spinblocks excadrill builds, and possesses unparalleled cleaning potential. It is everything we hated about Lunala in gen 7 and worse Dark-types are worse and more sparse than ever, Pursuit is gone, and Lunala's utilization of items allows it to effortlessly muscle past builds people assume can handle it.

Mandibuzz is a perfect example of a mon people assume checks Lunala not being able to check Lunala. Metronome has the potential to straight up power through Mandibuzz but the more difficult set is Rocky Helmet where Lunala runs enough defense investment to take 50% or less from Foul Play under Shadow Shield and damages Mandibuzz with Helmet until it is forced to roost or die to +1 Moonblast and when that happens it Calm Minds again and wins. Another particularly horrible Lunala set to face right now is bulky Calm Mind Leftovers. The idea behind this set is to have enough defense investment to return to full HP after a Corviknight U-turns. This destroys the strategy or using Corviknight to pivot into a mon that can properly revenge Lunala.

As you can see in the replay above, Stresh just led with his Lunala on my Corviknight, CM'd on the pivot, easily lived my Adaptability Chandelure Shadow Ball at +1 Sp Def, killed it, and the game was essentially over at that point. There are multiple other replays that I will include of this set in action because I keep seeing this Lunala just come in and 6-0 teams making me believe it to be the most oppressive Lunala set right now and forces Gyaradosite Toxapex, Aggronite Mandibuzz, or a softer check like Incineroar or Tyranitar on every team. Prepping for this mon is that much worse because the most effective way of offensively checking it isn't practical anymore. Am I ever going to bring Corviknight/Chandelure and hope that handles Lunala in the future? Absolutely not because there's that chance that I just lose to Lefties Lunala on preview and I think pretty much anyone playing MnM would agree with that. So the mere existence of Lefties Lunala has completely invalidated the idea of running something besides a Dark-type to defensively check it besides maybe Banettite Toxapex and it's possible for Lunala to run a secondary Psychic move to blow past that as well. I believe there is still room for this mon to adapt to the meta even more as it seems whenever the meta tries to adapt to handle it better, Lunala finds some new set or spread to exploit the common counterplay and power through teams.

Last of all, there is the elephant in the room related to Lunala... Specs Lunala. This set largely goes under the radar because the others I mentioned are so oppressive but this set is an overlooked menace mainly because there is absolutely no counter available in the entire meta besides Gyaradosite Toxapex and Aggronite Mandibuzz if you want to count that. It 2HKO's soft checks like Corviknight and Banettite Toxapex and has the potential to lure Incineroar and Tyranitar with Focus Blast. I think it's the worst Lunala set because of no defensive utility or recovery but the fact remains that this set is still around to remind us that our Sablenite Corviknight Banettite Toxapex teams aren't safe and can and will get blown away by a Specs Moongeist.

All of this is to say that Lunala does way too many different game changing things way too well and has exceptionally limited counterplay. I think it is easily the worst thing about this meta there are also additional details like it being so easy to pair with other top threats like Zeraora, Arcanine, Lucario, etc this mon is unbelievably splashable and horrible to handle in every way. Speaking of Zeraora, on to the second sin.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8mixandmega-1103938822 (I get absolutely demolished by a cm lefties Lunala when my main counterplay is pivoting from Corviknight into Luarionite Chandelure)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8mixandmega-1099075859 (Similar idea lefties Lunala gets back to full on Corvi U-turn and Ditto can't revenge and dies)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8mixandmega-1091553200 (Lefties Lunala singlehandedly destroying another team relying on Corviknight pivot to check it)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8mixandmega-1102234199-tym7mmk2gcxj33stc6kal2hg2ct9ksxpw (Lefties Lunala once again 6-0ing a team from preview)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8mixandmega-1103760618 (Specs Lunala easily breaks the Banettite Pex Corviknight core and Helmet Lunala wins the game from preview because the only defensive answer is Mandibuzz and it is running max speed Timid while specs Lunala is running Modest... This is not the first game i've seen where Lunala speed investment determine the winner)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8mixandmega-1103204062 (Lunala spin blocks Latiosite Excadrill and hazards remain because there is no other way to get them off. This scenario is a lot more practical in the case of Clefable setting Rocks and then Lunala preventing Exca from spinning them but this replay still shows how hard it is for the Excadrill user)
The Second Sin: Zeraora:zeraora:
Zeraora is unbelievably annoying to deal with. It doesn't matter if you have multiple checks like Clefable and Manectite Mew, this mon will find a way to Taunt, Pivot around, or lure your counterplay with one of its three sets. I find Zeraora the most enjoyable mon to use right now simply because unlike Lunala it usually requires significant outplaying and clever play to get around cores that answer it well. However, the fact that it has the ability to get around these cores in the first place is certainly fairly problematic and can make dealing with this mon unbelievably frustrating.

Zeraora generates momentum exceptionally quickly mainly by threatening Corviknight and then pivoting into another breaker. There are a ton of nasty offensive cores with Zeraora but it works with an unbelievable amount of stuff Lunala, Noivern, Kyurem, Chandelure, Excadrill, Necrozma-DM, etc. Taunt is a particularly annoying option at Zeraora's disposal that forces Manectite Mew, Lunala, and Clefable to think twice before recovering and i've seen some particularly horrible turns result from how much pressure this puts on defensive cores. I mentioned this before, but I think it's problematic when Taunt Lopunnite Zeraora is continually harassing Manectite Mew Clefable builds.

Recently, Metagrossite Zeraora has been catching on and it's an absolute menace to build for mostly because it has the ability to lure Clefable with Play Rough, Hippowdon wishing to block its Volt Switch with Grass Knot, while still being able to pivot around defensive cores. It also has 511 speed and is the fastest mon in the meta besides the uncommon Diancite Dragapult so you can revenge the slightly slower Lopunnite Zeraora. Overall, this set adds additional mindgames when one sees a Zeraora on preview because it is capable of busting open defensive cores that handle Lopunnite and still consistently doing what Zeraora does best which is stealing momentum and controlling the flow of the game.

There is also coincidentally an elephant in the room for Zeraora... Pinsirite Zeraora. Pinsirite was the only stone that was used on this mon in gen 7 and we thought it was all but gone with the removal of Return. However, Chazm pointed out a particular set with Bulk Up / Plasma Fists / Mega Kick / Facade and the more I thought about it the more I realized this set has the potential to lure and tear open a significant portion of the Zeraora checks and counters like Will-O-Wisp Manectite Mew, Lunala, and Clefable. Those are the three most splashable Zeraora counters all getting lured and losing to this mon. Again, look at the replay above Stresh and my teams are both very threatened by this set. There are obviously significant downsides to running this as well, Rhyperior, Tyranitar, and Hippowdon all wall it, it is slower than Lopunnite and Metagrossite Zeraora which ironically means it is susceptible to getting revenged by them after some prior chip, and it can't generate momentum with Volt Switch. However, this set has the potential to catch off guard and cause extensive damage in very little time and adds to the unpredictability of building and playing this mon.

There is a particularly infamous core involving Zeraora that consistently harasses and constrains the meta. It is very simple to use and it always sucks to face. I will explain what this core is and why it's so horrible to deal with as I introduce the next sin.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8mixandmega-1103131831 (Skysolo thinks Multi is Lopunnite Zeraora and gets his Arcanine lured by Metagrossite Zeraora and Taunt Lopunnite Zeraora forces Manectite Mew into horrible late game mindgames)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8mixandmega-1087546835 (Taunt Lopunnite Zeraora harassing one of its best counters in Clefable)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8mixandmega-1099627367 (Pinsirite Zeraora lures a Clefable and proceeds to shred half of Fardin's team because he didn't realize it didn't have Close Combat for Rhyperior)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8mixandmega-1099001653-pho5ko7cm6znsnr147jqxksjod9xmwjpw (Facade Pinsirite Zeraora capitalizes on Wisp Mew)
The Third Sin: Clefable:clefable:
Although Lunala and Zeraora are both horrible to play in their own way, there is nothing I hate more in this meta than Clefable. With Mold Breaker Stealth Rock on a mon with solid bulk, fantastic typing, and cleric Clef is easily the most obnoxious support mon i've ever seen. There is nothing one can do to stop it from setting up Rocks. They will always go up and that dynamic alone provides an exceptional amount of free turns. However, it is likely the biggest constraint on teams because the hazard removal options that also force out Clef are limited to Steel move Corviknight and Excadrill. I feel you absolutely have to have one of these two mons on your team right now otherwise Clef will be unbelievably oppressive and Rocks will almost certainly stay.

Remember that "infamous core" I mentioned that is horrible to face every game? Well because of the constrained nature of Clefable counterplay, Zeraora is the best offensive partner Clefable could ask for. When playing Corviknight teams, it's a very simple dynamic, Clef comes in and sets Rocks the turn Corviknight switches in hoping to Defog the following turn, Clefable switches into Zeraora on the Defog, Corviknight has to run for its life or risk taking enormous chip from Plasma Fists, the Zeraora user either attacks or Volt Switches out for momentum, etc. The cycle happens so often that Zeraora has a ton of opportunities to come in and harass teams and with Taunt, Toxic, and Volt Switch and there really isn't any room to play around the dynamic because the alternative is allowing Clefable to have Rocks which would likely lead to even more problems in the long run. I've been desperately searching for possible solutions to this mon besides this extremely limited counterplay but I haven't had much success and it seems others aren't either.

This mon was on EVERY. SINGLE. TEAM. Week 1 of OMPL and it was on the vast majority of teams week 2 as well because it's just that easy to throw a Clef on a build and have the best and most consistent Rocks in the metagame, the only really great defensive Hydreigon and a great check to Lopunnite Zeraora as well, and a cleric all in one. I think the most infuriating thing about Clef is that you know it will be on 90% of the teams and you know exactly what you have to do to limit it as best as you can... the issue is it isn't enough it's still always annoying it still always harasses your team and it still forces you into uncomfortable situations when you have to repeatedly defog with Corviknight or spin with Excadrill. The meta has quickly developed into packing a Ghost-type alongside Clefable so that Excadrill without an ate stone can't spin so if you are running a different stone on Excadrill dual hazard removal is all but mandatory and that is very impractical. Lunala is unbelievably splashable right now so it's simple to throw a Clefable and Lunala on a team and make all those non Ate Excas miserable.

Last of all, Clefable is one of two primary offenders that stretches out games into long awkward PP stall stalemates. This is because Heal Bell is such a get out of jail free card for mons that would otherwise be crippled for entire games and thus erases highly valuable progress. Did your Arcanine or Zeraora get a Toxic off on Mew or Lunala? Did you manage to burn that pesky Toxapex or Corviknight? Well that's too bad because Clefable just came in on one of your passive mons and cured all of it. Then we're right back to spamming Scald and hoping for another burn so that Clef is forced to Heal Bell again. It can be a slow, painful process and it honestly rewards sloppy play as well because letting your Zeraora get burned or your Manectite Mew get Toxic'd isn't an issue when you have that Heal Bell in the back. It is also yet another extremely valuable aspect of Clef's toolkit that motivates people to put it on every team. If you are running Manectite Mew as your Arcanine check, you could run a supporting Magic Bouncer... you could do that... or you could slap the Clefable on your team like always that would probably be a bit easier wouldn't it?
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8mixandmega-1098927756 (Redflix's wincons don't break through and the game devolves into stale Clefable Corviknight Toxapex Pivot/PP stall shenanigans)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8mixandmega-1086470710-tyo0e4g7yjd5fa201f7g8qcz2u0udwkpw (Example of how terrible Clef can be to face when there isn't a Defog Corviknight or an Excadrill to remove Rocks)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8mixandmega-1100966743 (Defog Mew showing how inadequate it is at remove Clefable Rocks because Clefable keeps coming back in on the Defog and setting them again. Well... that's what should have happened but Pigeons messed around and didn't do that smh Pigeons)
The Fourth Sin: Kyurem:kyurem:
Oh boy this is a weird one. I think it's important to mention that I view #4-6 as a significant step down in how problematic they are to the meta. Despite that, Kyurem is absolutely horrible to build for. Nothing and I mean NOTHING switches in to this mon comfortably and by comfortably I mean you go into your Sablenite Corviknight, take 37-44 from Ice Beam, and then pray you don't get frozen while you spam Roost until you can U-turn out. If it decides to Ice Beam the turn you U-turn you can't switch that in again until you Roost on something else. Kyurem is bulky enough to where if Corviknight tries to Iron head it takes under half and can easily just Roost that damage itself. Recently i've resorted to running Venusaurite Corviknight on teams without the Sablenite.

Sablenite is a vastly superior stone on Corviknight in pretty much every way... except for this particular matchup and it doesn't even help that much it just makes it so that you can switch in and Roost a bit less and thus minimize the risk of getting frozen by a bit less. You still do well under half with Iron Head so it's not like you actually force Kyurem out if it doesn't want to go. Basically the only real "answer" to Kyurem is packing heavy offensive pressure, usually Lopunnite Zeraora and praying your team doesn't let it in enough to let it really tear you apart or you get some hard turns right switching in with Arcanine if you have one. It's one of those things you're always scared of when building because you probably don't have a good answer to it and you just kinda have to hope for the best a lot of the time...
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8mixandmega-1098987198-fvu225rtdaacqm8q0e7xi43zw7ians4pw (Kyurem does stupid Kyurem things and freezes the only check and then sweeps)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8mixandmega-1102828168 (Sub Kyurem gets a few opportunities to freeze the Lunala, gets it quickly, and would have likely won the game if it continued. I think this replay also does a good job showing how constrained teams can look at times 5/6 mons are identical on both teams)
The Fifth Sin: Corviknight:corviknight:
Originally Corviknight was #4 on my list but I feel teams are adapting to it quite hard recently so it is struggling to function a bit more. That presents its own problem because bad Corviknight means even more annoying Clefable but Corviknight is on this list for really one main reason... It is the second mon alongside Clefable that stretches games into dull stalemates and erases hard earned progress by repeatedly coming in on the entirety of the defensive metagame, Roosting, and pivoting back out. Sablenite Corviknight eats almost every single hit that is thrown its way it doesn't matter if it's STAB, super effective, it lives it all. It can tank a Zeraora Plasma Fists, pivot out, come back in on Toxapex, Mew, or even Clefable if it's desperate, and erase all of that hard-earned chip just because you had to go into your defensive mon. I have seen Corviknights not mega in certain matchups and stick around to slowly PP stall opposing bulky balance teams. It is an exceptionally hard mon to kill and it has the ability to beat Clef, pivot on the majority of the metagame, and steal momentum almost any turn it wishes even if there is something that heavily chips it. It is another member of the "why not use this extremely splashable and easy to use pokemon" club
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8mixandmega-1099075859 (I already shared this replay but this is an example of Corviknight not megaing for the majority of a game to try and PP stall with Pressure)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8mixandmega-1087546835 (Again, I already shared this one too but the beginning of this serves as a good example of how easy it is to Roost back up with Corviknight after taking massive chip from Zeraora turn 1 particularly in combo with a mon like Clefable that forces free turns with Stealth Rock. I also let my Gengar go in exchange for heavy chip on Corviknight a second time and it effortlessly comes back again)
The Sixth Sin: Bulky Sablenite Set Up:mew::hippowdon:
The last sin is a bit of a different case as rather than not just being one mon, it is a particular archetype of bulky attackers that create some really horrible matchup dynamics in the meta. The main two Sablenite set up i'm referring to here is Calm Mind Mew and Curse Hippowdon but Gastrodon can do a bit of this as well with Amnesia if the opposing team can't kill it after it boosts its Sp Def. These mons are a very awkward thing to prep for because... they don't seem that threatening up front and many times people don't realize how fast the situation can snowball if they aren't ready. They're also incredibly bulky pokemon with Magic Bounce so... how do you muscle past that? Mold Breaker guys? Clef can't do anything and Gyaradosite Pex and Tyranitar beat mew but not Hippo.

I think the best and most splashable solution is bulky CM Lefties Lunala it is bulky enough to easily eat hits from Hippo and Mew and can set up alongside them and beat both. However, Mew eats Modest Moongeist Beam at +1 Sp Def and thus gets multiple opportunities to Scald burn Lunala which is a serious detriment for its effectiveness in games. Overall, these mons function in a very bizarre way in the meta. However, I have boosted up to +2 Sp Def vs Lunala and Hydreigon teams and suddenly Dark Pulse and Moongeist Beam aren't doing enough and i'm sitting in front of the strongest offensive Dark and Ghost types in the meta overwhelming it with my Mew. The same goes for hippo if you don't have a strong special attacker to immediately hammer it and prevent it from setting up, you're more than likely just sunk no amount of Manectite Mew and Corviknight pivoting is going to save you from boosted Body Presses and Earthquakes from an already obscenely bulky mon growing progressively bulkier.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8mixandmega-1100963343 (Not the best example of Sablenite set up in action, but this is one of those games where Volkner's team isn't properly prepared for Amnesia Gastrodon and it just kinda comes in, sets up an Amnesia, and sits around for most of the game clicking Scald and Toxic)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8mixandmega-1088504738 (Sablenite Mew had the 6-0 if Gman had been a bit more stubborn with recovering before killing the Corviknight. It didn't get the sweep but I think this replays shows how fast Mew snowballs against unprepared teams. As an additional bonus you see an Imprison Payback Lucarionite Gengar beating a Gyaradosite Toxapex!)

So the question is, what do we do about all of this? Unfortunately, it's hard to say because almost everyone agrees MnM isn't cutting it right now but disagree what the problem is. Most seem to really dislike Lunala and Zeraora those are definitely the primary two targets that people just want gone. If I had to choose something to ban my vote is for Lunala. For a time I thought Zeraora was the best mon in the meta and I still feel it is a top threat that is potentially problematic every game. But I think it is extremely apparent that Zeraora checks are much easier to fit than Lunala and I also think the potential Lunala has to blow open games with the right set far surpasses Zeraora's alongside Lunala's utility on both the defensive and offensive spectrum whereas Zeraora is a usually a solely offensive pokemon besides maybe Pinsirite.

This last point is somewhat objective but I also think the ease of use is significantly in Lunala's favor over Zeraora. Yes, Volt Switch, Taunt, and Toxic can all bother counters and open games for Zeraora but the difference is that if Zeraora Toxic's into Sablenite Corviknight predicting Mew the turn Corivknight decides to U-turn, or tries to Taunt the Clefable the turn Clefable predicts that and just kills it, that's a huge setback. But with Lunala, the ease of use is extremely apparent. You saw it yourself from replays there are multiple high profile games where Lunala gets to come in, click Calm Mind with no fear, and win the game because it has the right set and it should never be that easy for Zeraora. Lunala is also so bulky that at times it can afford to eat a bit hit in exchange for chip and then come back later against Mew, Clefable or Corviknight. I think something should be done soon because there's a lot of problems and I don't think a lot of people who previously loved MnM are enjoying themselves right now.
I agree with the points made in both Chazm's and Andy's posts here and they go into great detail on problems in the meta. I'd also like to push for a quickban as opposed to a suspect on Lunala as I believe the issue is time-sensitive with OMPL being directly affected. This quickban would happen before Week 4 of OMPL starts, unless there is a severe community backlash to quickbanning over suspecting.

As for Zeraora the council and playerbase (at least the players I've talked to) appear to be more split on what to do with it than they are with Lunala so I am still unsure what the best course of action is here. Zeraora would be directly impacted in a few ways by the removal of Lunala from the metagame so I am currently leaning towards not running a vote on Zeraora at this point in time with the meta presumably needing at least a little bit of time (may not be long with the influx of competitive players for OMPL) to settle.

I'll keep this thread posted on any updates about this situation whenever they do develop.
 

xavgb

:xavgb:
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
OM Grand Slam Winner
Andyboy​
Chazm​
Gmansour20​
MultiAmmiratore​
Quantum Tesseract​
Stresh​
Lunala​
Ban​
Ban​
Ban​
Ban​
Ban​
Ban​


Lunala has been banned from Mix and Mega! Tagging The Immortal to implement this on PS.

The council will continue to watch the impact of Zeraora and any other potential problems that may arise in the coming weeks to see if further tiering action needs to be taken.
 
Andyboy​
Chazm​
Gmansour20​
MultiAmmiratore​
Quantum Tesseract​
Stresh​
Lunala​
Ban​
Ban​
Ban​
Ban​
Ban​
Ban​


Lunala has been banned from Mix and Mega! Tagging The Immortal to implement this on PS.

The council will continue to watch the impact of Zeraora and any other potential problems that may arise in the coming weeks to see if further tiering action needs to be taken.
3zu0hh.jpg
 
Zeraora

:sm/zeraora:

Zeraora, for me, is the biggest problem that currently resides in the metagame. Counterplay appears to be decent to this Pokemon until you notice that set versatility is far beyond what most Pokemon in the current metagame can claim right now. First of all, access to Volt Switch means that it's an absolutely incredible momentum grab for teams, quickly chipping down checks like Mew and Clefable either through continual cycles into entry hazards, or through team support, such as Chandelure, Rotom-Heat and Specs Lunala. Secondly, it only has to dedicate two moveslots to Plasma Fists and Close Combat, which means that the third and fourth slot can cause a lot more problems due to Zeraora's already restricting STAB combination. But the worst part I have about Zeraora is this: its set variation.
just quoting this and reminding y'all about the devil, this pokemon isn't balanced, makes you make plays you regret making just because you think it's a certain set. All of it's sets have different uses and all work effectively. Which I feel is pretty overwhelming to switch into/ play against. It's also able to surpass it's normal checks with shit like taunt, metagrossite boosted grass knot, or even play rough to hit Clefable. You really can't say there's one "concrete answer" to this pokemon in this tier. The best one imo is Mew, but like I said that shit can get taunted or volt switch'd on and chipped over and over and over again. Please I'm asking you kindly... this pokemon is an annoyance and I would atleast like a sustest out of this.
 
Last edited:

Chazm

unspecified destination
is a Pre-Contributor
:sm/zeraora:

Hello everyone. The council has decided to hold a vote on Zeraora. Zeraora has come up as being a difficult threat to cope with in the builder in Mix and Mega and has been the biggest restriction to builds since Lunala has been banned. Builds have had some very tough times in the last two weeks of OMPL, with most of them being restricted to a select few checks like Sablenite Hippowdon, both Sablenite and Manectite Mew, and Ampharosite Clefable. Even with most builds employing this strategy, Zeraora has been capable of breaking these builds open through Volt Switch and the usage of Taunt or Toxic on Lopunnite variants, applying obscene amounts of pressure to keep these Pokemon alive. Most builds also cannot afford a Pinsirite Zeraora answer in the current metagame as checks are completely different to it when compared to the checks of Lopunnite and Metagrossite, and actual counters to Pinsirite Zeraora are also extremely tough to find, often resulting in scenarios where their own Zeraora will Volt Switch to obtain chip on a Pinsirite Zeraora to get it worn down to the point where Zeraora will be able to be knocked out by Plasma Fists. As a result of this, we have decided to hold a vote on Zeraora. The result of this vote will be posted soon - see you then.
 
alright so zera being voted on and hopefully being banned, i would like to discuss a few mons
(also i am gonna post some replays in this post , so if I analysed the game wrong pls let me know)

@ Sablenite
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind / Cosmic Power
- Scald / Stored Power
- Psychic / Body Press
- Roost

Let me just start with saying imo this mon is unhealthy for the metagame. Its a pain to face and see in preview and has very few counters. Sablenite mew alone allowed hydreigon usage to go from like 1 to 4 this week in ompl while someone also used venusaurite umbreon as a substitute(why chazm). With a combination of Scald and Psychic it threatens 99% of the metagame and any physical set up sweeper cant set up fearing scald burn.
U could find many replays in which sab mew showcases why its so dangerous in general
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8mixandmega-1115965972 OMPL week 5 sab mew sets up on a bu corvi and wins cuz it has more pp
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8mixandmega-1111898543 OMPL week 4 with no answers to sab mew, all andy has to do is set up
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8mixandmega-1111714517 the cosmic power set shows that sab mew can infact also be a menace and prob wouldve won if the end game was played a bit differently

Lets talk about the checks and counters for this mon

MOLD BREAKER TOXIC
"Just use toxic on Ampharosite clef lol"
this is definitely not a GOOD solution for sab mew mainly because
1) Sab mew is often paired up with clef which functions as a cleric
2) Not running heal bell on clef can be a little problematic and may cost u in some games
3) Other defensive Moldy toxic users arent great in the meta rn. We saw usage of reshiram this week in ompl but even there it wasnt the primary check as it was paired up with hydreigon

CHANDELURE
Again not a very good check. Stealth rock rn is pretty hard to keep out unless u are running exca builds. In addition, scald on switch in (while it does require prediction), 2hkoes luc chandy (0 SpA Mew Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Chandelure: 146-174 (55.9 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO ). Also the fact that Sab mew is often paired up with hydreigon doesnt help chandelure either

SWORDS DANCE SWEEPERS
Both Excadrill And lucario with an SD can pressurize Mew but the user can easily switch out to hippo or any other physical wall to threaten them out. It is also important to not that after mega evolving , lucario isnt as dangerous as its susceptible to get ohkoed by psychic.

HYDREIGON
Probably the most used and consistent check to sablenite mew. However , can easily be dealt with if taken into consideration and specifically prepped for. Dazzling gleam instead of scald can easily ohko hydrei. Similarly , Cosmic power mew lives a hit and ohkoes with body press.
Both however still take considerable damage from hydrei and are not left with enough health to be useful in rest of the game.


The cosmic power varient deals with all the above mons which is also a reason of sab mew being scary in preview. However, it does gain a new counter in banetite Toxapex.

That being said , a specific mon to put so much pressure in teambuilding and basically manadate the usage of 1 mon or atleast similar mons(why chazm),i believe is not healthy for the metagame. The moment u chose not to run hydreigon , it becomes very hard to check sab mew.
I have talked about Sab mew to few council members and they do not agree with it being unhealthy and believe its best to leave the metagame till DLC. i personally do not think that sab mew should be allowed rn. However, feel free to disagree with me and pls if possible do post your thoughts on why u think it isnt as broken as i make it out to be.




@ Pinsirite
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Mega Kick
- Extreme Speed
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat

Lucario is going to be even better when zera goes, as both meta and pins were pretty good offensive counterd to this mon; either forcing it out or ohkoing after surviving espeed. Lucario threatens out majority of th metagame staples like Toxapex/ Corviknight/Clefable. +2 mega kick hardly has any switch ins in the meta and with some chip, Its checks like Pins/Alt hippo/ defensive dusk mane cant switch in and take 2 hits. However Lucario is still managable as its forced to run adamant nature for breaking and thus, can be offensively forced out by metagrossite excadrill//Kyurem/Glalitite Hydreigon. Hippo with -ate stons is also a good defensive switch in altho as earlier mentioned, some chip will force it in 2hko range.

Also wanted to talk about kyurem and exca but im v tired rn so gonna edit this post tmrw
 

xavgb

:xavgb:
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
OM Grand Slam Winner
Andyboy​
Chazm​
Gmansour20​
MultiAmmiratore​
Quantum Tesseract​
Stresh​
Zeraora​
Ban​
Ban​
Ban​
Ban​
Ban​
Ban​

Zeraora has been banned from holding stones in Mix and Mega. Tagging The Immortal to implement on showdown.

Hopefully this is the last of the tiering action before DLC 1 drops, but as usual the council will be watching for any developments in the new meta that may be problematic.
 
Ahhh, sweet justice, Zeraora is no more!

Well, now that it's gone, it's time for thdhted's meta forecast! I'll talk about some stuff that's more likely to get better as well as some stuff I've been messing with because science.

First off, let's give a warm welcome to our new overlord, Excadrill!

Now that one of its primary checks is gone, Excadrill has become even more splashable due to the safe hazard removal it provides, combined with its excellent set of STABs and ability to cheese sweeps with its signature Iron Head Flinch. It runs a variety of stones, though the most common are Metagrossite and Latiosite, with Pinsirite and Glalite being decent options for gaining an unblockable spin at the cost of losing its steel typing and not gaining any bulk respectively. Overall extremely threatening, and definitely something people will have to account for at all times when building.

With the rise of Sablenite Mew in the past few weeks, Hydregion has seen an increase in usage, and the loss of Zera means it's also going to be more common, though it still runs into a wall with Clefable's omnipresence, and has to flee in terror if the word "Altarianite" appears. Nasty Plot sets are a well; nasty surprise, and it hits hard between Dark Pulse and Draco Meteor.


Toxtricity, a Pokemon that's been languishing in the lower end of usage since Home dropped, is very likely to rise up again to beat down the variety of Flying/Fairy types this meta spawns now that its primary competition is gone. Glalite Boomburst still makes several ground/dragon types tremble in fear, and its signature Electric/Poison STABs make common mons like Clef and Corv rethink their choices when this Pokemon appears in the team preview. Tie this nice little package off with Shift Gear for bonus cleaning utility, and we have a Pokemon set to resume its old duties.

In terms of undervalued Pokemon that definitely deserve a moment in the spotlight, we have Necrozma Dawn Wings, a Lunala knock-off with a hilariously powerful Moongeist Beam, and the ability to die in only one Dark Pulse! Jokes aside, Dawn Wings is a very threatening Pokemon currently, being one of the few reliable answers to the hellish monster known as Sablenite Mew as well as being a terrifying CM Sweeper. As a bonus, it even sets Stealth Rocks, a valuable trait in a meta where reliable Stealth Rockers aside from Clefable are rare. As a Stealth Rocker, it's surprisingly solid at getting rocks up, and having both leftovers access and semi-reliable recovery in Morning Sun/Moonlight means it can keep them up throughout a match(Life Orb and Choice Specs are also solid choices, but make Dawn Wings either easier to kill or make it less flexible respectively). Boasting good bulk and a great Sp. Atk stat means it can toss STABs around with impunity, only really fearing Dark Types that resist/are immune to its STAB combo, but that's what teammates are for.
The Calm Mind Set by comparison, isn't as immediately threatening, but quickly starts making life hell for bulky Pokemon like Sp. Def Corviknight who suddenly stops walling it and quickly falls over. Even Hydregion(If it isn't Blastoisinite) stops 2HKOing after a couple of Calm Minds and can no longer switch in safely at all.

As for other strong Ghost Types, we also have Chandelure, something of a underappreciated threat, running Lucarionite to blow open holes in common walls and ripping apart slower teams without apparent effort, or running Latiasite to get a free winning matchup versus common ground types. While not as fast as some of the meta's more common breakers, it's nevertheless extremely difficult to answer due to an excellent STAB combo and ability to set up or take advantage of the switches it inevitably forces with Substitute. It does however, lament its lack of reliable recovery and SR weakness, so it requires careful play to perform well. When it does get to play however, it's a complete nightmare to answer.

Golispod, a solid choice even during Zeraora meta, is now a much needed check to the fearsome Excadrill, and even acts as a solid check to aforementioned threats like Mew and Hydregion, while also offering hazard stacking utility via spikes. Swords Dance and Aqua Jet allow it to clean up weakened teams, and Leech Life allows it to handily pummel Mew and heal at the same time. A good choice that only got better with the removal of Zera.


I'd like to take a moment to remind you all that Mewtwo exists, and is absolutely terrifying to encounter when unprepared. In the current meta, Mewtwo's Nasty Plot set is a terror to behold, snatching OHKOes on many common pokemon after a single boost, provided it runs the right coverage of course. Having a good speed tier, and the ability to hold an item alongside not keeling over at the first sign of priority makes this Pokemon definitely worth looking out for.

Now for some of the stuff I've been experimenting with(mostly defoggers):



Mantine @ Banettite / Sablenite
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Roost
- Scald
- Haze

This is a surprisingly decent Defogger, though it suffers from the existence of Hydregion if running Banetite. It's not what I'd call "meta defining" but it serves its role as a role-compression tool fairly well, working as an answer to Excadrill and an emergency answer to setup sweepers. A little iffy on the defensive side, but if you need a Defogger and Hazer in one package, Mantine's got your back.



Reshiram @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Turboblaze
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD or 252 HP/ 252 Def / 4 SpD Bold Nature
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Flamethrower / Blue Flare
- Will-O-Wisp / Toxic / Dragon Pulse
- Roost

A less than well known defogger, Reshiram sees occasional use by those who want a defensive defogger that can also inflict status on Magic Bounce mons while still hitting decently hard. Can also run a more offensively inclined defog set, but tends to be outclassed as a heavy hitter due to the mandatory Boots. Zekrom can fill a similar offensive defogging role as well, but both are scared out by Excadrill.


Another entry in the "thdhted's list of underappreciated mons" that I use(don't have a set because of set variety) are Rotom-Heat and Rotom-Wash, both of whom see very little use despite a number of positive traits. Both have the potential to threaten a large variety of common Pokemon in the meta via their unique STABs alongside being useful pivots with good bulk, though can be tricky to work with due to an "average" speed tier as offensive mons. Can run a solid variety of stones (though Latiasite and Manectite seem to be the best choices in my experience).

And then there was Noivern:


Noivern @ Salamencite
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Boomburst
- Defog / Coverage of Choice
- Roost
- Super Fang / Taunt / U-Turn

Very underrated defogger and general utility bringer, Noivern has the speed to compete with Excadrill as a fast hazards remover while still hitting quite hard with STAB Boomburst. Super Fang doesn't seem like the best choice initially, but it's often a very free move to click by virtue of halving the current HP of whatever it faces or might switch in(including Ghosts due to it becoming a flying type move), making common walls like Corviknight and Toxapex waste precious recovery PP and making switching in safely hell for opponents. Great choice for messing up common fat builds while bringing a bunch of juicy utility.
 
Last edited:
hello, ive brought innovations.

mr dusk mane is good looking, especially with no zeraora to do weird things to it, like just mega evolve with pinsirite and resist stab/be immune to eq, or cc + bulk up.
this set is funny and deals with arcanine:

Necrozma-Dusk-Mane @ Occa Berry
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sunsteel Strike
- Earthquake
- Dragon Dance
- Morning Sun

252+ Atk Arcanine Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Occa Berry Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 146-172 (43.5 - 51.3%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO with (12.5 - 14.8% recoil damage)
252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Arcanine: 274-324 (71.5 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and the min amount of recoil so arc just kinda loses
obviously its an ohko if youre at +1 so its even better.

you could also do bulkier evs:

Necrozma-Dusk-Mane @ Occa Berry
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 108 HP / 252 Atk / 148 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sunsteel Strike
- Earthquake
- Dragon Dance
- Morning Sun

it outspeeds 0 speed altarianite arcanine by 1, so rest get thrown into hp for more bulk. eq still does the same thing and you take less from flare blitz!!

252+ Atk Arcanine Flare Blitz vs. 108 HP / 0 Def Occa Berry Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 146-173 (40.3 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
giving arcanine the same amount of recoil.

max hp/def w impish dusk mane just memes on arcanine, doesnt even get 3hkod with occa berry.

pins arc is kinda harder but sunsteel still hurts with rocks and flare blitz recoil (2hko'ing)

lucario (the other espeeder, expecting both to go up in usage as new speed control) doesnt do much better

252 Atk Lucario Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 169-199 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Lucario Close Combat vs. 108 HP / 4 Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 169-199 (46.6 - 54.9%) -- 66.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Sunsteel Strike vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 339-399 (120.6 - 141.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO (after a close combat, of course, also pins lucario so no eq)

alt lucario is obviously getting nuked so no need for calcs imo.

yes ive actually used this, and it does work. i think itll like no zera meta.

up next: just an idea right now

Pangoro @ Metagrossite
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Darkest Lariat
- Taunt/Parting Shot
- Swords Dance

again, just an idea, but i think it looks cool, good stab combo. does a funny to mew with sd + darkest lariat (good in case of cosmic power).
sd + taunt is also good against pex.

yeah thats all from me again bye
 
Alright here are some ideas / mons that I've been using or thought about using ~~~


Marshadow @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Spectral Thief
- Close Combat
- Shadow Sneak

I'd like to add Marshadow as one of the top viable fighting types in the tier alongside Terrakion and Lucario. I feel like this pokemon can be viable now since the rise of set up sablenite Mew and the banning of Zeraora. This mon literally counters the Cosmic Power variant of sablenite mew by just coming in and clicking spectral thief, or forces it out and prevents the sweep. Though, it has a little trouble checking the CM scald variant of sablenite mew, because of the chance of burning. This mon also has a great typing and could be pretty hard to switch into because of the lack of ghost resists in the tier, allowing most ghost types thrive. Another flaw is that it gets rkilled easily by -ate speeders, but that's the same for every fighting type in the tier. Imagine how much better this pokemon would be if it could mega evolve. (I think it should be allowed, but that's just me haha) Keep in mind I'm only considering this pokemon just because of it's signature move and it's ability to just stop the most annoying mon in the tier rn from sweeping you.

252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sablenite Mew: 203-242 (50.2 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (fuck mew man)
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Corviknight: 169-200 (42.2 - 50%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 175-207 (43.9 - 52%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock


Rhyperior @ Tyranitarite
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 192 Atk / 64 SpD | 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature / Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Rock Blast / Stone Edge / Smack Down

Ah yes, Rhyperior. This mon was so good before pokemon home and the rise of Ampharosite Clefable. I feel like it can regain it's notoriety of being a superb Stealth Rocker because of the ban of Zeraora. With it being Tyranitarite, it allows itself to be a good ass SpD tank in the tier, while being able to wall break aswell. It can punish a Corviknight (top tier defogger) for coming on it by SD'ing up and either hitting it with a rock move, or EQ'ing on the roost. I usually run max SpD for my Rhyperior but I added a spread where it guarantees a 2hko on Manectite Mew at +1 and a 2hko on SpD Corviknight, giving it a more offensive use for the set. Hopefully Rhyperior will find it's way back up in usage.

+1 192+ Atk Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Manectite Mew: 202-238 (50 - 58.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 192+ Atk Rhyperior Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sablenite Corviknight: 219-261 (54.7 - 65.2%) -- approx. 2HKO
+2 192+ Atk Rhyperior Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sablenite Corviknight: 289-342 (72.2 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 192+ Atk Rhyperior Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Sablenite Corviknight: 246-289 (61.5 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 192+ Atk Rhyperior Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Sablenite Corviknight: 183-219 (45.7 - 54.7%) -- approx. 64.1% chance to 2HKO


Noivern @ Salamencite
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Boomburst
- Super Fang / U-Turn / Taunt (don't recommend because of Sableniters)
- Defog / Flamethrower / U-Turn
- Roost

I'mma keep this short because thdted already discussed this mon. Let me tell you, Noivern can be a pain in the ASS to face. It being able to spam a stab 162 bp move is pretty obnoxious. On top of that it gets super fang so it's guaranteed 50%, weakening the incoming pokemon that switches in, forcing it to most likely heal up. Another thing I like about Noivern is that it's able to scout what item/mega stone the opposing pokemon is holding pre mega. Making life way easier for the user to make plays and what not. I think that's about it for noivern, oh, and it's fast as fuck.
 
Quick appreciation post for Lopunnite Darmanitan. Shout outs to Chazm letting me know about this set. Honestly is a better Cinderace in the tier, with it's wopping 200 atk stat and nice speed tier at 383. Can abuse the fact that it has EQ + U-turn to gain momentum and stop shit like Toxapex from coming in on it. I guarantee you, if you play with Darmanitan, you will see how effective it is when using it. Whether it gets a kill or two, or dents your opponents team.


Darmanitan @ Lopunnite
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Superpower
- Earthquake
- U-turn

Here's a replay of it going to work. Which is also a replay of me playing aggressive (something you don't see everyday am I right?) :pimp:
OMFL Week 2 vs damflame
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 2, Guests: 1)

Top