M&M Mix and Mega

The issue with this is that it loses its Poison-typing and thus its immunity to Poison moves. If you want a different Toxapex that shows off similar defensive capabilities try out Latiasite Toxapex - its defense of 182 isn't as high but its defensive typing combined with Levitate is far superior to other options.
Still seems good enough, but the good news, you get less weaknesses.
The bad news, less types to resist against.
 
oh boy this dlc is wild. Think this is the perfect time to make this thread active and get opinions of everyone in the new meta. Obviously with influx of so many mons , most of the early trends and speculations of a mons viability are gonna change in the next few weeks when the meta settles but here are my thoughts on some mons


:naganadel: :zacian-crowned:
These two are easy bans imo. I've mostly used lucarionite with naga and it's way too good as a wallbreaker having almost no switch ins. Great stabs and speed tier + access to nasty plot + fire blast is the perfect coverage and mnm already struggles with a good spd defensive mon once a mon can break through blissey. Poison/dragon is also a great typing even as a defensive mon being able to survive alt speed and even smart strike from meta kartana. I've seen other varients in ladder with absolite or blastoisinite with dragon pulse which both seem decentish for the most part.

Regarding zacian crowned I don't get why was it freed in the first place , a 170 attack with intrepid sword and one of the best typings in fairy/steel is enough for a mon to broken and that speed tier + decent bulk is an added plus. It doesn't have to bother about the lo recoil problem that normal zacian faces and even tho u can say we got ho-oh or NDM as a semi check to it but I still feel it's too powerful for this meta. Even eternatus isn't a reliable check to this.

Speaking of eternatus , it's interesting to see how it turns out. For the most part I faced it on ladder/through challenges it always seemed to be an annoying mon to take out and continues what it does when it was legal in mnm. Personally, I think it could be a problem in the future but it isn't an insta ban for me.

:zeraora: :lunala:
I'm glad these two are back in the tier. Both I feel will probably be A tier mons in the future considering how they seem even better than before. Having a good offensive electric mon back in mnm is a blessing especially after koko didn't impress much. Both pins and lop zera are top tier with one being a great Wall breaker with bulk up + mega kick and being able to soft check stuff like salamencite dragonite/ lando-t or pins entei(if u don't get burned), kartana and threaten ho-oh and pex. Lopunnite too is similar altho stuff like eternatus/ -ate espeeders give it a harder time. Zera being able to outspeed scarf ogre is also very appreciated.

Lunala on the other imo will see more defensive usage as either cm or defog varients. While it does lose to blissey in a 1v1 cuz of having less pp (unless ur using psyshock) and have gained some offensive mons that can pressure it such as urshifu/ calyrex shadow( which mostly outclassed as it a better offensive mon) and even the now free gengar , it's still able to check a plethora of mons and can even be a potential sweeper with cm. All in all ,I expect lun to do the same thing it did pre dlc 1 and be a force to be reckoned with.

:mandibuzz:
mandibuzz is decent again!! Checking ghost types while also being able to check stuff like kartana and even lando-t / dragonite(if not altarianite) and even luc zygarde while also providing a slow pivot is great. I've been mostly using sablenite and aggronite and both work well for the most part.

:landorus-therian:
unfortunate Lando-t doesn't get body slam that leaves it with facade as it's stab with salamencite. Due to this , I've only used this as a suicide SR setter with sd/eq/explosion and it performs at that role pretty effeciently. It'll be interesting tho if it manages to perform any other role when the meta settles.

:dragonite: / :entei: / :genesect: / :zygarde: / regieleki
the new espeeders we got. Dragonite obviously is a big question mark whether it will remain in the tier or not given its access to multi scale. I haven't used genesect at all so I have 0 inputs about it. Zygarde and entei tho are gonna be the premier espeeders of the meta most probably. Regieleki with pinsirite is a good nuke option like lando-t, mostly relying on stab explosion rather than espeed to take physical walls down.

Lastly both kart and luc zyg are great offensive mons. Kart losing return is a big blow and it will have to run smart strike for sure to check alt dragonite/zygarde thus leaving it walled by ho-oh. Zyg on the other hand doesn't really have any outright weakness and seems like a mon that might be problematic in the future

Some sets :-

Zapdos-Galar @ Metagrossite
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature / Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Thunderous Kick
- Brave Bird
- Throat Chop / Taunt / Close Combat / filler

Probably the best out of the new bird trio we got. Metagrossite is a great stone for this giving it a good speed tier plus boost on all of its attack. Last move could be anything depending upon if u want it to take lun out/ taunt for defensive mons or cc for sure shit kills with some mons.

Pheromosa @ Diancite
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Triple Axel
- U-turn
- Throat Chop / Lunge / Filler
A powerful glass canon that hits p hard. U can opt for a mixed set given triple axel's accuracy.

Exciting upcoming days for the meta and hopefully it gets balanced asap. Would love to hear thoughts on other mons I haven't tried yet and it would be interesting to see where the meta goes
 
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Hey friends, with the release of DLC 2, we have some huge banlist updates that will usher in the beginning of the final (hopefully) Gen 8 Mix and Mega meta. I want to preface this by saying this is truly a huge change for this tier. Although we had multiple big mixups to the meta throughout Sword and Shield MnM, none of those updates or changes approach this DLC's gigantic influx of new powerhouses that impact Mix and Mega in a major way.

Because this is such a dramatic change and we have next to no idea how this meta is going to look, the council took a "fresh slate" approach when we voted on our DLC 2 meta banlist. Meaning, almost all of the new arrivals are remaining unbanned for the start of the meta and almost all of our previously banned Pokemon are being freed. It may seem overwhelming to have such a large number of monstrous threats present at the start, but we feel this will give every Pokemon present in DLC 2 Mix and Mega the fairest chance for a retest and hopefully avoid any community complaints regarding us not giving a mon like Zacian-C a fair chance after it was initially quickbanned at the start of the generation. If we felt there was even a 1% chance a mon could stay in the meta long-term we voted to free that mon. So some of these guys certainly didn't have 5 votes in favor of freeing them but if there was a majority they are going to be allowed.

We voted on the following mons: Gengar, Melmetal, Zeraora, Dragonite, Regigigas, Pheromosa, Naganadel, Entei, Zygarde, Tapu Lele (With Expanding Force in mind), Kartana, Landorus-T, Marshadow, Zacian-Crowned, Eternatus, Lunala, and Kyogre. We also voted to allow Solgaleo to hold mega stones similarly to how we previously did that for Zamazenta. All of these mons will be present at the beginning of the DLC 2 meta except for Marshadow and Regigigas as after significant discussion, there was a majority opinion that these two had no chance of remaining in the meta and thus they will remain banned. This new banlist is updated in the OP in this thread so check it out if you're looking for more details. Out of the both the newcomers and unbans for this meta, I made a personal four part threatlist that represents how dramatically these mons will impact the meta and how likely they are to stay in the tier. Keep in mind these are my opinions so they don't fully reflect where the rest of the council stands in regard to some of these mons.

Threat 1 (Likely to get Quickbanned in the First Week)

:dragonite: Dragonite
Dragonite is simply the strongest Espeeder ever seen in Mix and Mega. This mon has great base stats with a particularly high attack stat, an amazing premega ability and exceptional supporting moveset for an atespeeder. It has access to the proven Dragon/Fairy typing with Altarianite or can use the generally undesired Salamencite to fit 3 possible Ate stones on one team with a massive increase in physical bulk.

:zacian-crowned: Zacian-Crowned (FULL BAN)
Zacian's strengths are fairly easy to explain. Intrepid sword is one of the best available offensive abilities in the game, it has a blazing speed tier, exceptional Fairy/Steel typing, fantastic additional coverage, and powerful setup with Swords Dance.

:pheromosa: Pheromosa
Pheromosa is a daunting prospect from a base stat perspective, with sky-high attack stats on both spectrums, it is one of the best mixed attackers in the meta. This is complimented by the highest base speed for viable mons in the meta and access to Quiver Dance. With some of the best STAB options for a Bug/Fighting type in U-turn, High Jump Kick, Focus Blast, and Bug Buzz, Pheromosa is a strong abuser of Lucarionite and with some additional coverage options like Poison Jab, Ice Beam, Drill Run, and Throat Chop Tough Claw stones should be quite strong as well.

Threat 2 (Likely to get Quickbanned in the First Month)

:melmetal: Melmetal
A lot of what makes Melmetal so hard to deal with boils down to its broken signature move Double Iron Bash. On top of that, Melmetal has amazing attack and bulk, stones help solve some of its speed issues, it has fantastic coverage options for Tough Claws stones and any mon slower has an exceptionally hard time dealing with this Pokemon's continuous flinches and any faster mon without bounce has a horrible time switching in on a Thunder Wave.

:gengar: Gengar
Ghost-types remain at the top of offensive threatlist and the vast majority of special walls are still unable to handle Nasty Plot Gengar. The added power level of the meta could actually hamper its best counter Gyaradosite Toxapex's and other passive special walls and Ghost/Poison is still a fantastic dual STAB combo with little need for additional coverage.

:kyogre: Kyogre (FULL BAN)
XY Kyogre moment... Water resists capable of taking specs Water Spout in rain do not exist in this meta. Specs vs Scarf Kyogre has the potential for nasty game changing mix ups, and this mon has all of the tools necessary for a choiced rain breaker/cleaner and pairs brilliantly with Zacian-Crowned and many other physical breakers. I never thought I would say this but Pdon come save us pls

:lunala: Lunala (FULL BAN)
Similar train of thought here to Gengar. Offensive Ghost-types reign in this meta, although adaptation of special walls could cover Lunala better than Gengar so there is potential this mon can be handled easier than it was before. However, the previous domination of the CM Leftovers set, potential for Substitute adaptation, and unexplored pure breaking potential of its Choice Specs set remain ominous.

Calyrex-Ghost-Rider (FULL BAN)
Ever wondered what would happen if Lunala had base 165 Special Attack, 150 Speed, and solid bulk with Special Moxie? Wonder no more because in a meta dominated by special Ghost-type powerhouses, Gamefreak has decided we need yet another broken specially offensive Ghost. Ghost-Rider has access to Nasty Plot and a 120 base power special Ghost move called Astral Barrage. The only thing that keeps this mon off Threat 1 is the fact that its coverage is quite poor. Nasty Plot, Astral Barrage, and Psyshock are a Nasty 3-way combo, but the fourth moveslot options are very similar to Gengar with Draining Kiss, Energy Ball, Taunt, Will-O-Wisp, Hex, and Future Sight all being among potential options it could pull off. This means that Lunala counterplay like Mandibuzz and Gyaradosite Toxapex hard wall this mon and I do actually believe Lunala is likely the more versatile and superior Ghost legendary here. With that said, the speed tier, monstrous special attack stat, and fantastic dual stabs worry me but we'll see how effective it proves to be.

Threat 3 (Fairly Likely to get Suspected or Banned)

:zygarde: Zygarde
Altarianite Zygarde really misses Return/Frustration but the Altspeed + Tarrows combo is tried and true, several of its best counters like Bulky Arceus, Aggronite Buzzwole and Aggronite Mew are absent from the meta and because this will likely further constrain Manectite Magearna usage, the viability of Lucarionite Zygarde seems to rise considerably this meta. There is a lot potent luring potential to be found here and it will be interesting to see how Zygarde tries to utilize that freed 4th slot.

:naganadel: Naganadel
Red Orb being gone helps Naga's chances of staying quite a bit but Dragon/Poison is still extremely hard to stop with Fire coverage, Nasty Plot, and an amazing speed tier and powerful offenses. Spikes is a great addition to its already excellent movepool and Diancite seems like one of the more splashable speed control options in this meta.

:eternatus: Eternatus
With fantastic base stats, perfect coverage for a Dragon/Poison type, and a nasty ability, this mon still seems extremely annoying to deal with and the potential for the metronome set to slowly snowball through defensive cores and just stick around forever worries me quite a bit. With that said, I think the significant upgrade in the power creep will allow offensively oriented teams to manage Eternatus much easier than the early SS meta and in return, Eternatus seems like a neat offensive check for some of those new mons.

:landorus-therian: Landorus-Therian
No Return/Frustration hurts a lot but the unparalleled offensive checking ability with premega intimidate + Explosion and its niche to pressure defoggers with SD/Stealth Rock + Explosion remains the central part of its toolkit. I could see this mon bringing some of the unhealthy elements it brought in Gen 7 to this Gen.

Threat 4 (On the Radar but Unlikely to Get Banned)

:entei: Entei
No Blue Orb or Pdon means some of the harder counters for this mon don't exist in this meta. I actually expect Entei to surpass Zygarde as an Espeeder this gen specifically because the counterplay seems so constrained. (I am NOT arguing Entei is better than Zygarde as Zygarde has other sets and is a more well rounded mon in function I am only applying this comparison to Espeed sets). Pinsirite sorely misses Return/Frustration but Altarianite still has all the tools it needs to thrive.

:victini: Victini
Similar to Entei, Blue Orb mons and Pdon were two of the best ways to deal with Victin's obscenely strong V-create and other great coverage options to beat normal Water-types. Mixed sets with Work Up used to be very strong and I can see potential for that to rise in this meta as well.

:zeraora: Zeraora
All 3 previously viable sets should still be relevant, Lando-T should be a fantastic offensive check but Pinsirite Zeraora can easily beat that 1v1 and the lack of Pdon and other dominant Ground-types in SS makes me slightly wary of it bringing that problematic dynamic of Volt Switching into powerful teammates back into play. However, Zeraora is another mon that suffers a nerf from the meta power creep upgrade.

:kartana: Kartana
Kartana is another mon that sorely misses Return. However, its primary set during its most dominant era in Gen 7 was SD with Dual STABs and Sacred Sword meaning it should still be a powerful breaker with Metagrossite. Some of its best counters like Manectite Magearna, Sablenite Zapdos, Moltres, Victini and Pinsirite Arcanine and Entei are all available so the counterplay is there and Kartana's effectiveness will likely depend on how well it can abuse defensive cores alongside fellow breakers.

:solgaleo: Solgaleo (STONES ALLOWED)
The decision to allow Solgaleo to hold stones follows in the footsteps of Zamazenta being freed to mega and still struggling showing that even mons with large base stat totals and decent type combos really struggle in Mix and Mega if they have a poor movepool. That is certainly the case for Solgaleo as it is offensively outclassed in every way by Zacian-C and is generally an undesirable mon in a meta full of Steel-types. Defensive sets seem to have potential and we will be keeping a watchful eye on this change, particularly in the event that Zacian-C gets banned early.

Because this is such a huge change in our banlist, I thought a post breaking down the voting process, mons freed, and then some explanation of those mons with a few others would be nice. I have certainly been wrong on multiple occasions when I predicted mons' impact in previous iterations of Mix and Mega so we'll see how the meta shapes up early. I've never had the chance to use some of these mons in Gen 7 and am genuinely intrigued to see if stuff like Dragonite and Pheromosa has a shot to stick around in Sword and Shield Mix and Mega (probably not). Regardless, I can't wait to get my hands dirty with the new mons and I hope you guys feel the same!

tl;dr We voted to free Gengar, Melmetal, Zeraora, Dragonite, Regigigas, Pheromosa, Naganadel, Entei, Zygarde, Kartana, Landorus-T, Marshadow, Zacian-Crowned, Eternatus, Lunala, and Kyogre. Regigigas and Marshadow are remaining banned and Solgaleo will be allowed to hold stones now. Check out the OP in this thread to see the full updated banlist.
 
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I've been enjoying the dlc 2 metagame so far and I wanted to bring attention to a pokemon i've been liking so far.

Glastrier-Glastrier on its own has amazing sets barring speed, 145 attack, 100 hp, 130 defense and 110 special defense. Pair that with a mega stone like Mewtwonite X and it's really good. I've been using Mewtwonite X under trick room mainly and its been giving great results.

Glastrier @ Mewtwonite X
Ability: Chilling Neigh
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Swords Dance
- Icicle Crash
- Close Combat
- High Horsepower
 
I've been recently using a sticky web balance team with some pretty unique mons, tell me what you guys think!
Araquanid @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sticky Web
- Protect
- Toxic
- Scald

Moldbreaker to bypass magicbounce users and gyardosite instead of ampharosite bc Heatran needs it more. Protect is a solid move to scout out movesets and protect in case they suicide lead landorous explosion on u.

Tapu Lele @ Lucarionite
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Psyshock
- Moonblast
- Shadow Ball
I prefer lucarionite instead of diancite for the better bulk and shadow ball is necessary for that calyxrexnxnxxxnxn pokemon.

Heatran @ Ampharosite
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dragon Pulse
- Magma Storm
- Toxic
- Taunt
Mostly for trapping blissey and other stall mega scum.

Raichu @ Altarianite
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Extreme Speed
- Nuzzle
- Tickle
I personally hate the oversaturation of e-speed users but its kinda important to have so I used a pretty unpopular mon. If u like winning please run zygarde of dragonite u pos.
Victini @ Banettite
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- V-create
- Taunt
- Encore
- Final Gambit
Victini provides some pretty good utility as it can check pixilate users and v-create can nuke mons. Encore and taunt is good for setup users and status spammers. Final gambit is good move.

Ditto @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 252 Def / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 30 Atk
- Transform
When u cant figure out a 6th mon so u just use ditto.
 

xavgb

:xavgb:
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The first quickban slate of Crown Tundra has been voted on! The aim of this slate was to target the most unhealthy mons to prepare for (ones with the fewest/least viable answers). The results can be found here.

Andyboy​
Catalystic​
Chazm​
MultiAmmiratore​
Stresh​
Zacian-Crowned​
Ban​
No Ban​
Ban​
Ban​
Ban​
Calyrex-Shadow​
Ban​
Ban​
Ban​
Ban​
Ban​
Kyogre​
Ban​
Ban​
Ban​
Abstain​
Ban​
Melmetal​
Ban​
Ban​
Ban​
Abstain​
Ban​

Zacian-Crowned, Calyrex-Shadow, and Kyogre are banned from Mix and Mega! Melmetal is now restricted from holding mega stones! Tagging The Immortal and Kris to implement these 4 on Showdown.

To give a little explanation on why each of these mons were voted on:

:Zacian-Crowned: Good bulk/speed/typing and access to Swords Dance allows it to steamroll through all but a few mons in the meta. Many checks like Necrozma-Dusk-Mane are less viable in Mix and Mega and the meta doesn't offer many new viable ways of beating it outside of things like Volt Zap + revenge killer, making building against it very straining.

:Calyrex-Shadow: Dark types are generally abused incredibly well by the metagame, which means the only two Calyrex switchins that really hold their own in the meta right now are Mandibuzz and Yveltal -- the rest are incredibly difficult to run on any good team.

:Kyogre: A combination of bouncers being able to keep Ogre away from hazard pressure, and Ogre abusing said bouncers very easily leads to most teams requiring a solid switchin. The options for this are very limited -- you either run Spdef Eternatus, Ampharosite Blissey, or a very specific Charizardite Y mon that isn't weak to any of Ogre's other moves and has enough special bulk to avoid being 2HKOed by Water Spout (normally Solgaleo). To make matters worse Charizardite Y mons are limited to only switching in after Ogre; in other words if they need to check something else they risk becoming Ogre bait.

:Melmetal: The nature of Double Iron Bash and the fact that this meta gives Melmetal an actual speed stat and even better bulk with stones like Metagrossite proves to be problematic once again. Combined with Tpunch/High Horsepower/Twave, Melmetal is able to break through pretty much anything but Zapdos and Sablenite Slowbro with only one flinch being needed, which is 51 percent likely to happen (more if you count the fact that some of these mons will be Twaved).


This should hopefully give the metagame much more breathing room to develop, so if you have any thoughts on the remaining mons such as the ones Andyboy outlined on the watchlist a few posts back, do let us know!
 
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Just pointing this out here, because I don't know where else I have to go to..

Shuckle @ Ampharosite
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sticky Web
- Stealth Rock
- Infestation
- Power Split

Gives me in the game, after I mega evolve, the amazing total of 3 special defence. So I got a few ohko's that I never expected (after using a power split). Please fix :3
 

Kris

joe mama
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Moderator
View attachment 286275
Just pointing this out here, because I don't know where else I have to go to..

Shuckle @ Ampharosite
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sticky Web
- Stealth Rock
- Infestation
- Power Split

Gives me in the game, after I mega evolve, the amazing total of 3 special defence. So I got a few ohko's that I never expected (after using a power split). Please fix :3
That's due to stat overflow, not a bug, a clause is being added to the format and will be live next hotpatch
 
View attachment 286275
Just pointing this out here, because I don't know where else I have to go to..

Shuckle @ Ampharosite
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sticky Web
- Stealth Rock
- Infestation
- Power Split

Gives me in the game, after I mega evolve, the amazing total of 3 special defence. So I got a few ohko's that I never expected (after using a power split). Please fix :3
but hey, if you take away 3 IVs it has 0 and is unkillable in that stat (see Pure Hackmons)
 
I'll start this by saying that I absolutely hate the metagame for what it is now so this post might have some points that are just my personal bias but I do believe it will also have some valid points that should be taken into consideration so that mnm could get the best possible meta to be played in wcoom.

The tier rn feels that there is too much Pokemon to check but only few can do that successfully. Ur inevitably gonna be extremely weak to something be it either a not so used mon like xern or an S tier mon like pins mag or have to decide which few mons u want to get 6-0d from so that u could check the larger majority. Over compensating for this in ur team leads to lack of offensive pressure which then makes u either involved in a battle of 200 games without being able to make progress or just straight out losing to defensive mons like ho-oh or eternatus. Ofc since I'm a ladder player, these assumption are based on my experiences on ladder.
That being said there is also a lack of solid rockers in the meta which makes it even difficult to make progress- a problem which mnm has suffered throught swsh. This also makes it easier for some mons to come without sustaining any damage and being able to threaten like 90% of ur team and do it over and over again(specifically in the case of gengar). However unlike previous states of metagame where the few but viable rockers were able to compress many roles at a time ( eg exca being able to spin/check clefable and amphy blissey being able to toxic sable cm users), this time apart from lando-t, u have to either go out of way to accomodate a rocker
or add rocks to an existing mon in expense of some other important move ( rocks on hippo over curse , on sable blissey etc) which also are not reliable considering these can be bounced back via a sablenite mon.

Based on some arguments I made earlier about over the top mons being hard to check efficiently , I have made 3 tiers for some mons addressing how they should be handled going forward.

TIER 1 : SHOULD BE QUICKBANNED OR 100% SUSPECT TESTED

Gengar
:gengar: : To no one's surprise the first mon in this list belongs to the most broken type in the metagame rn. Gengar still functions the way it used to before it got banned pre dlc 1. Nasty plots up and then proceeds to either sweep or make way for another mon to sweep. Almost no viable mon can tank 2 hits from a +2 gengar and more often than not the special walls u have for this guy in ur team fail to even ohko it back (talking mandibuzz or spd ho-oh for instance). It can easily just sub up vs blissey thereby thwarting ur plans of tanking a +2 sludge bomb from it and then teleporting to a faster mon. Almost everytime this mon will atleast ko 1 mon from the opposition and chip another. Obviously gengar is not unkillable and for most games u'll see it getting revenge killed but this mon has a very strong offensive presence or should I say too strong for it to have a place in a stable meta.

Eternatus :eternatus: : A mon which went under the radar for quickbanning stuff during the early time of dlc 2 but now after facing it many times on ladder I can for sure say this is the most annoying mon to face. A super good typing in poison/dragon along with a brilliant combination of pressure + recover makes eternatus a Bane for ur defensive backbone of the team. Almost in no way ur getting past eternatus with ur defog ho-oh/pex/blissey/zapdos etc. Metronome defensive sets even go further and threaten ur offensive mons , or atleast wear their pp enough.
Are u relying on -ate entei to damage it? Well think again
252+ Atk Pixilate Entei Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 244 Def Eternatus: 162-192 (33.4 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Entei Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 244 Def Eternatus: 153-181 (31.6 - 37.3%) -- 88% chance to 3HKO
Alt has a chance of getting ohkoed from sludge bomb while pins tei has ~70% chance of getting 2hkoed(defensive metronome set)
As mentioned earlier getting a mon vs this guy isn't free and most if not all the mons that threaten it do get in range of getting 2hkoed with some prediction ( talking dnite,urshifu single strike, or offensive lando where eq doesn't even ko this fat mon).
Now unlike gengar , defensive answer for this guy do exist mainly in the form of venu solgaleo or necrozma dm but both of these mon aren't either used and imo aren't that good either.
This mon does get 1v1d by multiscale dnite/explosion but a mon to threaten atleast 2 mons of ur team and have enough firepower to even play around it's checks with some right prediction does make it broken imo.
Unfortunately I don't have replays to show it's unhealthiness but I hope we do get to see some flashes of it in the upcoming livetour

Naganadel :naganadel: : Another mon that is a poison type and is a special attacker. Naga's case is a little different than other too because there are matchups or certain situations where it can be managed somewhat more easily than the other two mons ( specifically talking when both blissey and naganadel are at the field) but that does not warrant it from being a menace. I already did mention it's perks in my previous post but I'll go in more detail about why I think this is borderline broken. Firstly, of we take out blissey from equation , naga suddenly becomes 10x more threatening. Sablenite corvi takes a massive amount of damage from a +2 fire blast/flamethrower and does very little in return. Ur strat of slow u-turn into a faster mon can't last forever considering corvi's getting ohkoed the next turn. Venu corvi faces a similar situation where u take almost 50 from fire blast and doesn't 2hko from bb I believe. I believe it was chazm who talked about spd ho-oh for checking naga which I believe doesn't help at all. U switch ho-oh into a +2 Draco and take ~90 while u don't even ohko from brave bird(assuming ur not defog ho-oh in which case sacred fire does even less), now what? Ur still sacking a mon or atleast chipping 2 of ur defensive mons heavily.
Even with blissey into equation, here's the problem- More often than not naga u'll be switching blissey when naganadel nasty plots. This makes it extremely bad for u as now u either sack blissey doing 66% or teleport into a faster mon to threaten it but obviously ur oppo switches out. Here's an example altho not perfect
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8mixandmega-1223341257-aq23b9h13luohflno0y0qh72n99pocopw
In this game I'm using an extreme commonly thought strategy to check naga i.e blissey teleports into a faster mon(phero in this case). My oppo gets a lucky poison from sludge wave on blissey which makes it very easy for him now to threaten blissey whenever and ultimately sweep. Now the 'luck' thing can easily be solved by running sludge bomb > wave which will eventually poison at some time considering this sequence will be repeated for the most part when naga comes.
Similar to eternatus , venu solgaleo does check naga completely but thats not a mon u would want to run in every team if ur not running blissey.
I'm inclined to say naga should be 100% getting suspect tested over quickbanned because unlike gengar naga does not resist -ate speed and is much more easier to handle offensively altho it is as terrible as gengar if not more to check this guy defensively.

TIER 2 : SHOULD BE SUSPECT TESTED LATER

Lunala :lunala: : when gengar hopefully goes, it is obvious lunala will gain more usage and be in strong contention for another broken ghost type. Lunala rn is a terrific defensive cm users and a wincon being able to check shit ton of mons while also being able to set up vs them. Yes we have gained ho-oh as defensive check to this but as long as u can avoid toxic from it by either letting lun get burned or parad , u should be able to 1v1 ho-oh. I don't think I have much to add to this , it's p much inevitable (if gengar goes) for lun to not be S tier mon and not have a strong presence in the meta - something the last time it had was enough for it to be quickbanned.

TIER 3 : MONS THAT SHOULD BE IN THE WATCH LIST
This mostly include ho-oh ( defensive boots being a very prominent and efficient defensive mon that might give trouble later) , dragonite ( best espeeder with good coverage) , Lando -t ( mostly for its ability to set rocks + explosion to make progress vs checks or just straight out as a sd Wall breaker ) , urshifu forms ( I swear im not letting these get away ) etc

Hopefully this rant of mine made some sense and we can get a better(even if slightly) meta moving forward and for upcoming om tours
 

xavgb

:xavgb:
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis the defending Other Metas Circuit Champion
The council recently concluded a vote on Gengar and Naganadel, two pokemon who we have been observing for a few weeks after Crown Tundra's release.


Andyboy​
Catalystic​
Chazm​
MultiAmmiratore​
Stresh​
Gengar​
Ban​
No Ban​
Ban​
Ban​
Abstain*​
Naganadel​
No Ban​
Ban​
Ban​
Ban​
Abstain*​

*Abstained both votes as the voting process had concluded before I made a choice

As a result of this vote, Gengar and Naganadel will both be banned from holding Mega Stones! Tagging The Immortal and Kris for implementation.

As usual, we will be keeping an eye on other potential threats and would be willing to hold another vote before Week 1 of WCoOM starts (if it is necessary).
 
If I'm honest, I really don't enjoy the meta atm. The overwhelming power of Extreme-Speed with 'ate' abilities is ruining the fun. You are unable to experiment with other mons because you have to compete with this absurd use of priority.

I don't think the move should be banned but I don't think the meta is balanced at all atm. There's either hyper offense or hyper stall, I don't see much in between. A lot of mega-evolutions (and the addition of secondary typing) are made useless due to Altarianite Entei / Zygarde / Dragonite / Genesect. At this point, you're guaranteed to have a mon like this in every team if not more than one. It's restricting teambuilding too much in my opinion.

Any thoughts on this?
 
I agree. Since you cant check the -ate users offensively outside of using a faster espeeder, you need to run either a defensive water with haze or mew with willo on every team. This is quite restricting towards teambuilding. I think restricting the espeeders that can boost attack and speed at the same time (zygarde; dragonite; genesect) from holding stones would help the meta a lot.
 
If I'm honest, I really don't enjoy the meta atm. The overwhelming power of Extreme-Speed with 'ate' abilities is ruining the fun.
I'm sorry you aren't enjoying the meta but I disagree with a lot of what is being said here. It is undeniable that Extreme Speed + Ate stones or Atespeed has been an enormous part of the MnM metagame since its conception but I think it's a huge leap to say they are entirely "ruining the fun" and you are "unable to experiment with other mons" because of its presence in the metagame.

You are unable to experiment with other mons because you have to compete with this absurd use of priority.
Experimentation can be a response to anything you see in the metagame, you could experiment with something like Ampharosite Stealth Rock Blissey + Lucarionite Magnezone if you're noticing people running a lot of Corviknight to Defog your Mold Breaker Stealth Rock away, that's experimentation aimed at capitalizing Ampharosite Blissey's Stealth Rock pressure. You could experiment with Future Sight Lunala + Urshifu to capitalize on Urshifu's breaking potential, or you could experiment with utilizing Curse Sablenite Hippowdon on defensive cores because it does such a great job shutting down almost every Atespeeder in the meta. There's a ton of stuff you can do to give you an edge over the common metagame trends you see and the presence of Atespeed certainly doesn't entirely shut that down.

I don't think the move should be banned but I don't think the meta is balanced at all atm. There's either hyper offense or hyper stall, I don't see much in between.
I'm not seeing the same thing as you are i'm seeing VERY little hyper offense or stall and I would go as far to argue those two playstyles are either suboptimal, unwieldy, or very unexplored at this time. I think the playstyles in between like Balance and Bulky Offense are by far the easiest to build and play right now.

A lot of mega-evolutions (and the addition of secondary typing) are made useless due to Altarianite Entei / Zygarde / Dragonite / Genesect. At this point, you're guaranteed to have a mon like this in every team if not more than one. It's restricting teambuilding too much in my opinion.
If you are addressing the absence of some mega-stones in the meta and blaming that on Atespeed users, I think that's incorrect. A lot of mega-stones are unviable because they suck as mega stones and there is no reason to use them over one of the better stones (although you might be surprised by some people's creativity for finding spots for underutilized niche stones on certain teams because of stone clause). But Garchompite, Mewtonite X and Y, Sceptilite and Steelixite are never used because there are offensive and defensive stones that outclass them in every way not because putting that stone on your team makes you scared of Altarianite Entei.

I would never saying something like you're "guaranteed to have a mon like this in every team if not more than one" because that's just untrue you're not guaranteed to see an atespeeder on every team I have built and played multiple teams without an atespeeder it's difficult to do and rare, but it's never a guaranteed thing to have, those are my thoughts.

I agree. Since you cant check the -ate users offensively outside of using a faster espeeder, you need to run either a defensive water with haze or mew with willo on every team. This is quite restricting towards teambuilding. I think restricting the espeeders that can boost attack and speed at the same time (zygarde; dragonite; genesect) from holding stones would help the meta a lot.
Again, I strongly disagree, you can certainly check -ate users offensively without using a faster espeeder and i'd argue the two ways of checking atespeeders you listed are limited and suboptimal in many matchups. Landorus-Therian is the most well-rounded offensive check in the meta right now and that mon isn't a faster espeeder. Calm Mind Leftovers Lunala is another fantastic splashable offensive Pokemon with strong offensive checking ability due to its Shadow Shield ability. There are multiple options for offensively checking Atespeeders that range out of using your own atespeeder.

I don't think that restriction would be helpful because Genesect is a dramatically inferior mon to Zygarde and Dragonite. Entei is a lot better than Genesect but it would remain unbanned, why? I think a far better way of addressing Atespeed abusers is to consider them on an individual level and if they are deemed unhealthy, to ban them on an individual basis rather than a confusing concept like Ate Stone + Espeed + Speed boosting = ban.
 
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I'm not seeing the same thing as you are i'm seeing VERY little hyper offense
I see the same and i think its because hyperoffense doesnt have ways to counter the espeeders.

Again, I strongly disagree, you can certainly check -ate users offensively without using a faster espeeder and i'd argue the two ways of checking atespeeders you listed are limited and suboptimal in many matchups. Landorus-Therian is the most well-rounded offensive check in the meta right now and that mon isn't a faster espeeder. Calm Mind Leftovers Lunala is another fantastic splashable offensive Pokemon with strong offensive checking ability due to its Shadow Shield ability. There are multiple options for offensively checking Atespeeders that range out of using your own atespeeder.
I made a mistake in my post you qouted as i said there arent any offensive checks, but i actually wanted to say counters.
Havent used lunala, maybe i should try it out. Not sure about lando however, as he counts as check, but can easily be worn down.
Nevertheless calling the ways i suggested to check (even though i wanted to say counters) those espeeders suboptimal supports the theory that these espeeders are too strong.

I don't think that restriction would be helpful because Genesect is a dramatically inferior mon to Zygarde and Dragonite.
You may be rigth about this and only restricting Dragonite and Zygarde and then watching the meta develop may be better.
 
I see the same and i think its because hyperoffense doesnt have ways to counter the espeeders.



I made a mistake in my post you qouted as i said there arent any offensive checks, but i actually wanted to say counters.
Havent used lunala, maybe i should try it out. Not sure about lando however, as he counts as check, but can easily be worn down.
Nevertheless calling the ways i suggested to check (even though i wanted to say counters) those espeeders suboptimal supports the theory that these espeeders are too strong.


You may be rigth about this and only restricting Dragonite and Zygarde and then watching the meta develop may be better.
I don't want to clutter up this thread so this will be the last response to this particular topic. It is a given that hyper offense should have good means of dealing with Atespeed or else it is not a viable hyper offense. Tapu Lele is the primary and best way to prevent Atespeed from bothering your offensive team however, Lunala can also act as a blanket check, Pinsirite Entei can check Altarianite Espeeders, Electrics like Zeraora can check Pinsirite Espeeders and so on there are ways for hyper offense to handle Atespeed and if the HO you see doesn't have any of those then it's a bad hyper offense.

Calling something suboptimal implies that there are better ways to do what that suboptimal thing is aimed at doing... Me calling your two methods suboptimal in many cases certainly doesn't support the notion that Atespeeders are too strong, it supports the notion that the counterplay is much bigger and effective than you are making it out to be because you were arguing that you NEED to run one or both of these methods. You don't, there are significantly more consistent and splashable methods of handling Atespeed than defensive haze waters or Wisp Mew. Defensive Wisp Ho-oh, Bulk Up Corviknight, Curse Sablenite Hippowdon, Defensive Zapdos, Leftovers Lunala, Cosmic Power Mew (you only mentioned wisp), and Sablenite Slowbro (since that doesn't fall under a Haze Water) are all capable of answering Pinsirite Espeeders, Altarianite Espeeders, or both, the counterplay is far more diverse than you are making it out to be.

Lastly, if you want to have more discussion about this and other MnM related things, whether that be Atespeed or anything else, we'd be happy to have you join the discord and bring it up there! https://discord.gg/utpdFv9U <- Join here if anyone is interested.
 
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=Experimentation can be a response to anything you see in the metagame, you could experiment with something like Ampharosite Stealth Rock Blissey + Lucarionite Magnezone if you're noticing people running a lot of Corviknight to Defog your Mold Breaker Stealth Rock away, that's experimentation aimed at capitalizing Ampharosite Blissey's Stealth Rock pressure. You could experiment with Future Sight Lunala + Urshifu to capitalize on Urshifu's breaking potential, or you could experiment with utilizing Curse Sablenite Hippowdon on defensive cores because it does such a great job shutting down almost every Atespeeder in the meta. There's a ton of stuff you can do to give you an edge over the common metagame trends you see and the presence of Atespeed certainly doesn't entirely shut that down.
I've tried. E-Speeders still overpower any stone that gives a fighting, dragon or dark typing. And your Hippowdon sounds great, but I've tried Sablenite before and people just defeat it with an unexpected special move or set-up power. And I saw Lele has a good idea but it's terrain only lasts 5 turns if you mega evolve or someone has another terrain setter.
I'm not saying there are no counters at all, I never said that. However I think that it restricts the use of a lot of other maybe lower-ladder interesting mons that you just don't ever see (and that's sad to me). You have to have some sort of counter for it and if that counter somehow gets defeated or the opponent has more than one E-Speeder and you lose your only counter, you just lose cause of (mostly) mindless priority spam.

=I'm not seeing the same thing as you are i'm seeing VERY little hyper offense or stall and I would go as far to argue those two playstyles are either suboptimal, unwieldy, or very unexplored at this time. I think the playstyles in between like Balance and Bulky Offense are by far the easiest to build and play right now.
You make a fair point, perhaps it was that one day I was battling, that was the only thing I was seeing. However, the more I play, the more I've realised that there is some in-between :)

=If you are addressing the absence of some mega-stones in the meta and blaming that on Atespeed users, I think that's incorrect. A lot of mega-stones are unviable because they suck as mega stones and there is no reason to use them over one of the better stones (although you might be surprised by some people's creativity for finding spots for underutilized niche stones on certain teams because of stone clause). But Garchompite, Mewtonite X and Y, Sceptilite and Steelixite are never used because there are offensive and defensive stones that outclass them in every way not because putting that stone on your team makes you scared of Altarianite Entei.
I'm not blaming it on E-Speeder at all. But I personally look at those stones that give interesting new typings, and dismiss them almost immediately because of Ate E-Speeders.
And I totally disagree with you there. Some of those Mega Stones you mentioned have incredible potential. +80 in base Attack is terrifying and so is +30 Defences and +40 Attack. Maybe a sandstorm team with Steelixite? There are other options and exciting ideas to try out, but every time I do, I'm punished for it by E-Speeders (mostly). Which is why I believe they are OP atm.

=I would never saying something like you're "guaranteed to have a mon like this in every team if not more than one" because that's just untrue you're not guaranteed to see an atespeeder on every team I have built and played multiple teams without an atespeeder it's difficult to do and rare, but it's never a guaranteed thing to have, those are my thoughts.
I respect your opinion, but that day I played I didn't battle a team without at least one E-Speeder on it. Granted now I'm not seeing them on every team, but they are still very potent and prevalent - perhaps 80-90% of teams have one.

=I don't think that restriction would be helpful because Genesect is a dramatically inferior mon to Zygarde and Dragonite. Entei is a lot better than Genesect but it would remain unbanned, why? I think a far better way of addressing Atespeed abusers is to consider them on an individual level and if they are deemed unhealthy, to ban them on an individual basis rather than a confusing concept like Ate Stone + Espeed + Speed boosting = ban.
I agree, not sure how to approach it tbh, perhaps just ate-stones banned on certain mons? Like Dragonite and Zygarde (however if that does happen, Genesect would closely follow along with Entei). I don't know how difficult that would be to code, but it will bring a lot more variety in mons in the meta and more variety on stones imo.

And that for me is the issue, a lack of creative new mons. There is seemingly endless potential (which is why I love the concept of this meta), but I just think it's stuck in one place atm and imo, it's because of the 4 mons I just mentioned above with E-Speed.

:)
 
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After thinking about it, it seems banning altarianite may be the best option. If afterwards espeeders are still a problem, we could restrict the e-speeders and then reintroduce altarianite.
 
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I've tried. E-Speeders still overpower any stone that gives a fighting, dragon or dark typing. And your Hippowdon sounds great, but I've tried Sablenite before and people just defeat it with an unexpected special move or set-up power. And I saw Lele has a good idea but it's terrain only lasts 5 turns if you mega evolve or someone has another terrain setter.
I'm not saying there are no counters at all, I never said that. However I think that it restricts the use of a lot of other maybe lower-ladder interesting mons that you just don't ever see (and that's sad to me). You have to have some sort of counter for it and if that counter somehow gets defeated or the opponent has more than one E-Speeder and you lose your only counter, you just lose cause of (mostly) mindless priority spam.



You make a fair point, perhaps it was that one day I was battling, that was the only thing I was seeing. However, the more I play, the more I've realised that there is some in-between :)



I'm not blaming it on E-Speeder at all. But I personally look at those stones that give interesting new typings, and dismiss them almost immediately because of Ate E-Speeders.
And I totally disagree with you there. Some of those Mega Stones you mentioned have incredible potential. +80 in base Attack is terrifying and so is +30 Defences and +40 Attack. Maybe a sandstorm team with Steelixite? There are other options and exciting ideas to try out, but every time I do, I'm punished for it by E-Speeders (mostly). Which is why I believe they are OP atm.



I respect your opinion, but that day I played I didn't battle a team without at least one E-Speeder on it. Granted now I'm not seeing them on every team, but they are still very potent and prevalent - perhaps 80-90% of teams have one.



I agree, not sure how to approach it tbh, perhaps just ate-stones banned on certain mons? Like Dragonite and Zygarde (however if that does happen, Genesect would closely follow along with Entei). I don't know how difficult that would be to code, but it will bring a lot more variety in mons in the meta and more variety on stones imo.

And that for me is the issue, a lack of creative new mons. There is seemingly endless potential (which is why I love the concept of this meta), but I just think it's stuck in one place atm and imo, it's because of the 4 mons I just mentioned above with E-Speed.

:)
I'm gonna disagree with a lot of this here. I feel like the majority of your argument isn't really "Espeed is unhealthy for the meta and overly restricts viable choices in team comps and build styles" so much as "These specific espeeders vastly outclass the other, less powerful espeeders and I don't enjoy playing against them". The espeeders prior to Crown Tundra (namely Arcanine and Raichu) were good at what they did, but were nowhere near broken. Arcanine itself, the most popular espeeder in the tier up until the DLC drop didn't even run espeed all the time simply because it was a fantastic 'mon all by itself with multiple sets it could viably run; espeed was simply another tool in its kit. Even the current wave of extremely powerful espeeders have alternative sets that don't even necessarily NEED espeed because they're powerful enough on their own. Zygarde, an extremely threatening mon currently often runs Lucarionite without espeed to take advantage of that delightful STAB Thousand Arrows and is just as viable as the Altarianite variant, which runs espeed. Entei, one of the pokemon in the meta most known for espeed is extremely one-dimensional and easy to stop with common walls like pex, and is near completely outclassed by Arcanine without running espeed due to shoddy coverage and a lack of both a pivoting option in teleport and not having recovery. Genesect's role as an espeeder is mostly that of a glalite user and counter-espeeder than anything. Genesect by itself is a rather poor user of espeed due to it giving up its very desirable Steel Typing to gain actual STAB on espeed(relegating espeed itself to a mere coverage option the majority of the time) and distinguishes itself more on its excellent coverage options, typing, and strong STAB U-Turn than anything else related to priority. Espeed is a tool in Genesect's kit, but not its defining trait. Dragonite is another pokemon where it is known for espeed, but unlike Entei, can run alternative sets that are equally viable to the espeed variants.

The point being, that I don't think that espeed itself is broken, but rather that several of the meta's current biggest threats have espeed as a tool that only makes them more powerful on top of already being strong without it. The main ones that I'd point the finger at being Dragonite and Zygarde. The others I've mentioned(and haven't) I think lack power outside of espeed or don't even use all the time due to having other options; or simply being bad pokemon in of themselves(primarily Pokemon like Linoone, Togekiss and Suicune). I strongly doubt anyone's teams are getting swept or having holes blown in them purely because of pokemon like Regileiki, Lucario, or Raichu are running espeed. Again, the point I'm making is that espeed is not the problem, it's the Pokemon using espeed alongside having traits that already make them powerful.
In terms of the metagame, espeed functions primarily as speed control, not a sweeping tool. The meta has a multitude of fast and powerful attackers at its disposal, and priority is a common answer to those pokemon, espeed being the most popular and common choice due to higher base power and being "faster". For example, Urshifu is a pokemon that is very well known in the meta for being nigh impossible to stop defensively due to the fact that answering both the Dark and Water variants reliably require different checks. On top of this, both variants are known to run priority on occasion(Sucker Punch and Aqua Jet respectively) themselves. -Ate espeeders offer the perfect solution to both variants as both are weak to flying and fairy. Another example is a plethora of fast attackers who might simply shrug off weaker priority and strike back with powerful STABs or coverage. Pheromosa and other diancite attackers come to mind here. Espeed is not the cause, but a symptom of a metagame where fast and powerful attackers thrive and speed control of some form is necessary. Other choices for speed control absolutely exist depending on the team you're building, but for offensive teams, espeed tends to be the most common due to it being relatively easy to slap onto a team. This of course, doesn't mean that espeed is mandatory, and I've seen a fair share of teams that don't run it at all due to preferring bulky answers to wallbreakers.

To be blunt, the idea of stones like Mewtwonite X and Steelixite having "incredible potential" and the primary reason they're held back is espeed is laughable. Mewtwonite X is known for being a meme stone used only by players who haven't caught on to the fact that Loppunite is a vastly superior stone, primarily due to the intimidate immunity and superior speed tier offered by the stone. +20 attack and an incredibly niche ability are not worth the loss in speed and superior Scrappy. Steelixite may or may not have potential, but that's primarily locked behind having to run a weird team composition using sand in a meta where bulky waters are extremely common, and outside of sand(or even within it) the stone is near completely outclassed by Cameruptite in bulky roles. Other stones like Galladite(a stone that's not top tier itself) outclass it further by offering both a good physical bulk increase on top of a good speed tier increase. Inner Focus is not the ideal ability, but it does offer the ever useful intimidate immunity. Stones are viable or not viable based on their own merits, not whether or not a specific move is good/popular. The reasons why those stones don't see use is because they don't offer good niches or are simply outclassed within their own role. Note that this doesn't mean you can't experiment, but the majority of stones that see use, do so because they fill a role on specific pokemon or are uncontested in their ability to fill a role on almost any pokemon within that category. Sablenite is near uncontested for its ability to turn most defensive pokemon into unbreakable walls, much like Metagrossite is uncontested in its ability to turn physical attackers into speedy nightmares with boosted physical coverage moves. Both stats and ability granted determine the strength of a stone.
 
I strongly doubt anyone's teams are getting swept or having holes blown in them purely because of pokemon like Regileiki, Lucario, or Raichu are running espeed.
Regileki is great since it can check both zygarde and dragonite even after a +1 and Lucario is the best (and only?) user of sd+ espeed, but i also dont think they are broken, since regileki lacks power and lucario lacks setup opportunities because of its shitty bulk.

For example, Urshifu is a pokemon that is very well known in the meta for being nigh impossible to stop defensively due to the fact that answering both the Dark and Water variants reliably require different checks. On top of this, both variants are known to run priority on occasion(Sucker Punch and Aqua Jet respectively) themselves. -Ate espeeders offer the perfect solution to both variants as both are weak to flying and fairy.
If broken checks broken, both should be banned. Nevertheless no one talks about banning all -ate speeders but either restricting the strongest abusers or banning the best -ate stone. In both cases plenty of viable espeeders would stick around, but they would be less dominant. Since all espeeders check the urshifus, restricting only the strongest abusers of espeed would still give us plenty of options to check the urshifus.
 
I swear, I'm going to lose my mind if I see another one of those teams that just has generic mega evolving mons with their respective stones (e.g. Charizard with Charizardite X, Lucario with Lucarionite, Scizor with Scizorite, etc.). THAT IS NOT A VIABLE STRATEGY IN THIS METAGAME, PEOPLE! STOP DOING IT!

Just had to get that off my chest. Anyway, here's something I've been experimenting around with lately:

Ninetales-Alola @ Diancite
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Aurora Veil
- Aqua Tail
- Freeze-Dry
- Moonblast

Stats after Mega Evolving: 73/127/35/141/60/169
Something about seemingly being able to hit about half the metagame super-effectively with its STABs convinced me to give Alolan Ninetales a shot, and I daresay you sleep on this thing at your own peril. Base 169 Speed outpaces Eternatus, Salamencite Landorus-T and Noivern, Metagrossite Kartana, and all versions of Terrakion, Urshifu (Single and Rapid), Zapdos, and Zygarde. Besides those, Base 141 Sp. Atk helps against Mandibuzz, Toxapex, and Milotic. Everything I mentioned gets 1-2KOed by Freeze-Dry or Moonblast. You can leave it in its non-Mega form early on if you need to set up AV multiple times, then trigger the Mega when it comes time to start blasting things. I also highly recommend using it with something that can reliably set up Psychic Terrain (e.g. Tapu Lele) so you can block Extreme Speeds. Aqua Tail is there to pick off weakened Fire-types. Oh, and it has Magic Bounce, so anything that tries to run Gyaradosite or Ampharosite to set up hazards becomes weak to Moonblast.
 
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