[Monotype] Hoopa-Unbound Suspect

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The council has agreed to suspect Hoopa-Unbound.

Ever since it was introduced, Hoopa-U has been a huge threat in the Monotype metagame. 160/170/80 attacking stats allow Hoopa-U to be a fearsome scarfer, or a powerful wallbreaker. Hoopa-U also has a wide movepool, allowing it go both physical or special. Mixed sets are also viable, which makes it almost impossible to predict and prepare for. Furthermore, Hoopa-U is found on 2 of Monotype’s strongest types, Dark and Psychic.

For those that obtain the requirements necessary to vote, there will be only two options: global ban or no ban. To go along with our tiering philosophy, type-banning Hoopa-Unbound on either of its types will not be an option.

You can view your COIL by simply typing /rank into the PS! simulator. Tagging The Immortal to request that he sets up COIL for our ladder. Thanks in advance, TI!
Please note that there is 90 game limit, so if you go above, you will not be able to vote. Resetting your W/L will reset your COIL as well.

The B value for the test will be 8. The COIL requirement will be 2850. Some sample values are below.

Code:
GXE    NUM
72    530
73    229
74    147
75    109
76    86
77    72
78    62
79    54
80    48
81    44
82    40
83    37
84    34
(These reqs are subject to change if needed)

Participating in this suspect test does not count towards the Tiering Contributor badge.

The account you achieve your reqs with must be created on or after the date of this post and must have the tag MS3 at the start of it so we can ensure that everyone laddered within the suspect period.

Example: If I were to use my own name for obtaining reqs, the account I would use would be "MS3 Anttya".

This suspect will end two weeks from now on the 19th of March, 11:59 PM EST. By that time you must have identified with your reqs in the identification thread. The identification thread will go up during the suspect period and will be announced here as well as linked in the Monotype room intro. A 60% majority in favor of banning Hoopa-Unbound will be necessary for the ban to occur.

(As a side note, intelligent and respectful debate of Hoopa-U in this thread is encouraged during the suspect period. One-line posts and shitposts are not. You are welcome to have more casual discussions on this topic in the monotype room.)

Good luck and happy laddering!

Suspect song (credits to Scp!)
 
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scpinion

Life > Monotype... unfortunately :)
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
A couple things!

1) Don't reset your W/L to try and game the 90-match limit!
Resetting your W/L also resets your COIL.

Essentially, if you chose to reset W/L on an account, you end up making it harder on yourself in 2 ways:
1) by playing more games against harder competition b/c your ELO is (hopefully) higher than when you started fresh.
2) by making your GXE more resistant to change b/c your GLICKO deviation is already converged.

2) Suspect Tour on Smogon! http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/hoopa-unbound-suspect-tour-signups.3566369/
 
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Yay even though I think Hoopa-U should only be banned on Psychic xd
I'm not sure though, Hoopa does sorta die to U-turn 1 of the most common moves in the game.

But it seems like we are trying to remove a key component on two major types, yet now flying is going to be better because of this...we need to balance flying imo
 
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I've always believed that Hoopa-U is an incredibly powerful Pokemon, but I'm very wary of giving it a global ban. I won't argue its presence on Psychic. The versatility it brings to the team is unparalleled. It ruins many matchups, primarily the Psychic mirror and the Ghost matchups. It has unpredictability on its side, to make matters worse.

That being said, I feel removing it from Dark is a mistake. Let's consider what roles Hoopa-U can play on a Dark team. Unlike Psychic, Dark fails to have a good selection for speed control. Sucker Punch, while immensely powerful and a form of speed control of its own, is woefully unreliable. Further, it's resisted by Dark's weak matchups, matchups Hoopa-U comes in to save the day, such as Fighting and Fairy.

As an alternative Choice Scarf user, Dark has... Krookodile, Hydreigon, Honchkrow, and Tyranitar. All of these simply lack the coverage that Hoopa-U can provide. Where Honchkrow can pretty much always get a safe kill versus Fighting, it fails to have similar effectiveness against Fairy, a type that Dark struggles against and that Hoopa-U previously checked. Honchkrow also very much enjoys being able to switch between moves and has access to Sucker Punch, resulting in Choice Scarf being a rather undesirable set to run (Not even mentioning its absolutely atrocious speed tier, only being able to speed tie while holding a Choice Scarf against Speed 115 Pokemon).

Hydreigon might be useful versus Fairy, as it can carry Flash Cannon, importantly outspeeds Choice Scarf Gardevoir, and has a resistance against Azumarill's Aqua Jet. The unfortunate reality for Hydreigon is that it's simply too weak. Even against the aforementioned Gardevoir, outspeeding it has little benefits when Gardevoir simply lives any attack and kills it outright in return. In general, even, Hydreigon fails to provide the firepower that Honchkrow or Hoopa-U can. Hydreigon relies heavily on its impressive coverage and heavily on items like Life Orb or Expert Belt to bolster its poor offenses.

Krookodile is a third option, that has access to Moxie to potentially threaten unprepared teams. But unfortunately, Krookodile's coverage is severely limited. Its one saving grace is the ability to threaten out Fairy team that lost Togekiss after a +1 Moxie boost. Other than that, it fails to do anything meaningful versus Fighting, and drops to priority of pretty much any form.

The final Choice Scarf user I mentioned was Tyranitar. It's just not possible on Dark to run Choice Scarf Tyranitar. Its role as a reliable Stealth Rock setter, Special Defense wall, and general utility provider (with moves like Fire Blast, Pursuit, Thunder Wave) just cannot be replaced without severe costs. And if one truly wanted to run Choice Scarf Tyranitar, its speed still has so much to ask for and it doesn't provide the coverage or power Hoopa-U did.

This is all just talking about the hole Dark would have to fill because it loses its premier Choice Scarf user. Consider the matchups Dark suddenly becomes very pressed to defeat. Fighting becomes even more oppressive, as Hoopa-U is the key to taking out threats against the Dark team. With the support of Mandibuzz and Sableye, Hoopa-U was the backbone of the offense in Dark. No Pokemon can replace it, as Honchkrow suffers from crippling speed (It's slower than every common Fighting Pokemon except for Conkeldurr, as Breloom outspeeds the Adamant Honchkrow) and its Sucker Punch simply doesn't do the damage necessary due to the type disadvantage. Hydreigon has the mild benefit of having a Dragon typing, making it able to check Keldeo... except that Hydreigon can't actually kill Keldeo without a Life Orb, which is going back to the Choice Scarf issue and the role compression Hoopa-U provides. Without recovery, Hydreigon can only come in against Keldeo so many times before it eventually dies. Fighting really won't be threatened by any Pokemon that replaces Hoopa-U. Speaking of Keldeo, without the support of Hoopa-U's Choice Scarf Hyperspace Hole, a Substitute-Calm Mind Keldeo will walk right through any Dark team (This can be extrapolated to all other Sub users, as the Hyperspace moves are critical to defeating them).

Also consider Fairy, which Hoopa-U could combat with an incredibly powerful Gunk Shot. Fairy already is a cripplingly bad matchup, and to lose its only real way of winning is absolutely devastating. What Pokemon can possibly replace that Gunk Shot? Pangoro, which dies to any Fairy move provided by even a completely uninvested Whimsicott (Moonblast) or Klefki (Play Rough)? Bisharp is the other key to Dark's victory, but fails to be able to reliably take out either of Fairy's Mega-evolution options (Diancie must be caught on the switch, which will never happen, and Gardevoir can be difficult to defeat vs. Will-o-Wisp or Substitute variants) or anything faster than it without 2 or 3 Swords Dances to boost the resisted Sucker Punch.

Consider its position as a revenge killer. What exactly will replace it? It's a 284 Choice Scarf boosted Speed Pokemon that has immense coverage coming from base 160 Attack and base 170 Special Attack. Will Dark use a Life Orb Weavile, which is weaker, slower, and has no coverage at all? The aforementioned Choice Scarf users all have their pitfalls as revenge killers who rely heavily on Life Orb to eke out those crucial kills and thus will be prohibitively slow.

I haven't even discussed the other type matchups, where Hoopa-U is a premium wallbreaker in. This would be for example Electric's Zapdos/Rotom-W core, Grass/Poison's Mega-Venusaur that simply won't die anymore, Flying's already difficult to break Skarmory/Zapdos core, and Stall Water's core in general. Dark absolutely needs Hoopa-U because as it stands, it won't stand a chance without it.

So I'll conclude by asking you: is banning Hoopa-U from Psychic so absolutely important to us, that we are willing to cripple Dark completely?
 
Alright my analysis on Hoopa-Unbound:

Reasons it should be banned:
1. It gets so much coverage! That's covered later.
2. The item it hold impacts the dynamic of countering Hoopa-U, sometimes needing to sac a mon to see if it is scarf or band (for example).
3. As I said in reason 2, this thing is just plain out versatile, being able to be a wallbreaker or a cleanup mon.
4. It gives Psychic a Dark/Ghost switchin and it gives Dark a Fighting switchin (even though it cant really live 2 CCs from anything).

Reasons it should not be banned:
1. It has terrible defense and most priority is defensive.
2. It dies to almost every U-turn, which is one of the most common moves in the game (and also one of the best).
3. Without a Choice Scarf, it is slow af and once again dies to any physical STAB move from a decent wallbreaker.

My Opinion: Well Hoopa-U does have subpar defense, however that can easily be mitigated via other pokemon. U-turn is a huge threat to the type anyway so I think that is a decent reason (even though yes it can be somewhat mitigated). However overall I think its Pros outweigh its Cons by a longshot. With Band/LO it can sweep lots of Balance/Stall teams with ease. Choice Scarf can put an end to alot of megas and HO teams.

While I understand this cannot be like Aegislash and we havve to globally ban it or not ban it at all, I'd just like to say that Hoopa-U is helps out Psychic alot more than it helps Dark. It can take Dark pulses/Shadow balls with ease, while only really being able to take Focus Blast for Dark. Also, for Psychic Dark coverage is alot more useful (to beat types like Ghost and mirror matches) then for Dark when Psychic can only really be used to beat fighting (but its not really a switchin its just a check).

Also, It can be used a special or physical attacker or even mixed which is very dangerous.
Drain Punch - beats Dark and Steel types that may beat Hoopa (example: Tyranitar)
Fire Punch - Once again it can beat Steel types (example: Ferrothorn)
Gunk Shot - It can beat fairies (example: Azumarill)
Hyperspace Fury - STAB
Ice Punch - It can beat Dragons (example: Garchomp)
Knock Off - Mitigates threats like Chansey/P2
Thunder Punch - Nice way to beat water types (example: Gyarados)
Zen Headbutt - STAB

Charge Beam/Thunderbolt - beats water types (example: Gyarados)
Dark Pulse - STAB
Energy Ball - beats water/ground types (example: Swampert)
Focus Blast - beats dark types (example: Tyranitar)
Grass Knot is quite subpar to Energy Ball
Hyperspace Hole - STAB
Shadow Ball - Sort of pointless but its still cool.
Signal Beam - A really cool way to beat other Hoopa-U
Hidden Powers [Fire, Ice]

Calm Mind - Good counter to Electric (I guess)
Destiny Bond
Guard Split - gimmicks?
Magic Coat
Nasty Plot - Nice way to wall break
Reflect/Light Screen - Time to setup Dual Screens
Thunder Wave
Toxic
Trick
Trick Room
Substitute

Just a heads up, these are examples. I have Gyarados here because it can take a thunderbolt nicely after mega evolving and can ddance/ohko. I don't have Skarmory though because this is assuming you don't know if hes physical or special or even mixed.

Flying - Scarf Landorus-Therian, Scarf Togekiss, Mega-Charizard-Y, Gyarados-Mega
Psychic - Scarf Jirachi, Gardevoir-Mega, Scarf Victini, Other Hoopas?
Fighting - Gallade-Mega, Medicham-Mega, Sash Breloom, Scarf Heracross, Cobalion
Water - Gyarados-Mega, Azumarill, Cloyster (Sash), Mega-Swampert in Rain
Steel - Skarmory, Klefki, Scarf Excadrill - Hoopa is really scary for Steel...
Dragon - Scarf Kyurem-Black, Garchomp, Mega-Latias/Hydreigon core to scout moveset
Dark - Mandibuzz, Sableye-Mega, Weavile, Hoopa...? (If you know he isn't running Drain Punch/Fmiss almost everything walls Hoopa)
Bug - Scarf Heracross, Yanmega, Scolipede, Bulky Volcarona, Pinsir-Mega
Poison - Skuntank/Drapion - or hope hes not running Psychic coverage
Fire - Mega-Charizard-Y, Scarf Victini, Torkoal, Bulky Arcanine, Bulky Volcarona
Ground - Hippowdon, Sand Rush Excadrill, Scarf Landorus-Therian, Mamoswine, Garchomp (mega)
Normal - Staraptor, Chansey, P2, Ditto?, Lopunny-Mega - hope hes not running knock off and for Lopunny hope hes not running naive/hasty etc.
Ghost - Um...Mega-Sableye, uh...Scarf Gengar, Aegislash...really hope hes not special nasty plot sub.
Fairy - Azumarill, Mega-Diancie, Scarf Togekiss, Clefable, Scarf Gardevoir
Electric - Thundurus, Rotom-W, Zapdos
Rock - Shuckle, Mega-Diancie, Mega-Aggron, Scarf Terrakion
Grass - Whimsicott, Sash Breloom, Cradily, Ferrothorn...?
Ice - Scarf Kyurem-Black, Avalugg (hope not special), Weavile, Mamoswine, Cloyster, Piloswine

Of course there are more...but those are just a few. However when you look at all them, most of them hope on Hoopa not having some coverage move or not being physical/special.

On a Scale of 1-10 how much do I want to ban this: 8

I've always believed that Hoopa-U is an incredibly powerful Pokemon, but I'm very wary of giving it a global ban. I won't argue its presence on Psychic. The versatility it brings to the team is unparalleled. It ruins many matchups, primarily the Psychic mirror and the Ghost matchups. It has unpredictability on its side, to make matters worse.

That being said, I feel removing it from Dark is a mistake. Let's consider what roles Hoopa-U can play on a Dark team. Unlike Psychic, Dark fails to have a good selection for speed control. Sucker Punch, while immensely powerful and a form of speed control of its own, is woefully unreliable. Further, it's resisted by Dark's weak matchups, matchups Hoopa-U comes in to save the day, such as Fighting and Fairy.

As an alternative Choice Scarf user, Dark has... Krookodile, Hydreigon, Honchkrow, and Tyranitar. All of these simply lack the coverage that Hoopa-U can provide. Where Honchkrow can pretty much always get a safe kill versus Fighting, it fails to have similar effectiveness against Fairy, a type that Dark struggles against and that Hoopa-U previously checked. Honchkrow also very much enjoys being able to switch between moves and has access to Sucker Punch, resulting in Choice Scarf being a rather undesirable set to run (Not even mentioning its absolutely atrocious speed tier, only being able to speed tie while holding a Choice Scarf against Speed 115 Pokemon).

Hydreigon might be useful versus Fairy, as it can carry Flash Cannon, importantly outspeeds Choice Scarf Gardevoir, and has a resistance against Azumarill's Aqua Jet. The unfortunate reality for Hydreigon is that it's simply too weak. Even against the aforementioned Gardevoir, outspeeding it has little benefits when Gardevoir simply lives any attack and kills it outright in return. In general, even, Hydreigon fails to provide the firepower that Honchkrow or Hoopa-U can. Hydreigon relies heavily on its impressive coverage and heavily on items like Life Orb or Expert Belt to bolster its poor offenses.

Krookodile is a third option, that has access to Moxie to potentially threaten unprepared teams. But unfortunately, Krookodile's coverage is severely limited. Its one saving grace is the ability to threaten out Fairy team that lost Togekiss after a +1 Moxie boost. Other than that, it fails to do anything meaningful versus Fighting, and drops to priority of pretty much any form.

The final Choice Scarf user I mentioned was Tyranitar. It's just not possible on Dark to run Choice Scarf Tyranitar. Its role as a reliable Stealth Rock setter, Special Defense wall, and general utility provider (with moves like Fire Blast, Pursuit, Thunder Wave) just cannot be replaced without severe costs. And if one truly wanted to run Choice Scarf Tyranitar, its speed still has so much to ask for and it doesn't provide the coverage or power Hoopa-U did.

This is all just talking about the hole Dark would have to fill because it loses its premier Choice Scarf user. Consider the matchups Dark suddenly becomes very pressed to defeat. Fighting becomes even more oppressive, as Hoopa-U is the key to taking out threats against the Dark team. With the support of Mandibuzz and Sableye, Hoopa-U was the backbone of the offense in Dark. No Pokemon can replace it, as Honchkrow suffers from crippling speed (It's slower than every common Fighting Pokemon except for Conkeldurr, as Breloom outspeeds the Adamant Honchkrow) and its Sucker Punch simply doesn't do the damage necessary due to the type disadvantage. Hydreigon has the mild benefit of having a Dragon typing, making it able to check Keldeo... except that Hydreigon can't actually kill Keldeo without a Life Orb, which is going back to the Choice Scarf issue and the role compression Hoopa-U provides. Without recovery, Hydreigon can only come in against Keldeo so many times before it eventually dies. Fighting really won't be threatened by any Pokemon that replaces Hoopa-U. Speaking of Keldeo, without the support of Hoopa-U's Choice Scarf Hyperspace Hole, a Substitute-Calm Mind Keldeo will walk right through any Dark team (This can be extrapolated to all other Sub users, as the Hyperspace moves are critical to defeating them).

Also consider Fairy, which Hoopa-U could combat with an incredibly powerful Gunk Shot. Fairy already is a cripplingly bad matchup, and to lose its only real way of winning is absolutely devastating. What Pokemon can possibly replace that Gunk Shot? Pangoro, which dies to any Fairy move provided by even a completely uninvested Whimsicott (Moonblast) or Klefki (Play Rough)? Bisharp is the other key to Dark's victory, but fails to be able to reliably take out either of Fairy's Mega-evolution options (Diancie must be caught on the switch, which will never happen, and Gardevoir can be difficult to defeat vs. Will-o-Wisp or Substitute variants) or anything faster than it without 2 or 3 Swords Dances to boost the resisted Sucker Punch.

Consider its position as a revenge killer. What exactly will replace it? It's a 284 Choice Scarf boosted Speed Pokemon that has immense coverage coming from base 160 Attack and base 170 Special Attack. Will Dark use a Life Orb Weavile, which is weaker, slower, and has no coverage at all? The aforementioned Choice Scarf users all have their pitfalls as revenge killers who rely heavily on Life Orb to eke out those crucial kills and thus will be prohibitively slow.

I haven't even discussed the other type matchups, where Hoopa-U is a premium wallbreaker in. This would be for example Electric's Zapdos/Rotom-W core, Grass/Poison's Mega-Venusaur that simply won't die anymore, Flying's already difficult to break Skarmory/Zapdos core, and Stall Water's core in general. Dark absolutely needs Hoopa-U because as it stands, it won't stand a chance without it.

So I'll conclude by asking you: is banning Hoopa-U from Psychic so absolutely important to us, that we are willing to cripple Dark completely?
Well to an extent it might crush Dark but people will find out a way eventually. Also, how come we don't have per say Talonflame on Fire, Skymin on Grass, Kyurem-White on Ice?

Talonflame was banned because of its existence on Flying and making it more overpowered than it was. Same with Skymin. Kyurem-White would destroy everything on Dragon. So what the difference? If we don't ban, Hoopa-U will keep destroying everything on Psychic...

this is very opinion based and I hate psychic
 
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I've always believed that Hoopa-U is an incredibly powerful Pokemon, but I'm very wary of giving it a global ban. I won't argue its presence on Psychic. The versatility it brings to the team is unparalleled. It ruins many matchups, primarily the Psychic mirror and the Ghost matchups. It has unpredictability on its side, to make matters worse.

That being said, I feel removing it from Dark is a mistake. Let's consider what roles Hoopa-U can play on a Dark team. Unlike Psychic, Dark fails to have a good selection for speed control. Sucker Punch, while immensely powerful and a form of speed control of its own, is woefully unreliable. Further, it's resisted by Dark's weak matchups, matchups Hoopa-U comes in to save the day, such as Fighting and Fairy.

As an alternative Choice Scarf user, Dark has... Krookodile, Hydreigon, Honchkrow, and Tyranitar. All of these simply lack the coverage that Hoopa-U can provide. Where Honchkrow can pretty much always get a safe kill versus Fighting, it fails to have similar effectiveness against Fairy, a type that Dark struggles against and that Hoopa-U previously checked. Honchkrow also very much enjoys being able to switch between moves and has access to Sucker Punch, resulting in Choice Scarf being a rather undesirable set to run (Not even mentioning its absolutely atrocious speed tier, only being able to speed tie while holding a Choice Scarf against Speed 115 Pokemon).

Hydreigon might be useful versus Fairy, as it can carry Flash Cannon, importantly outspeeds Choice Scarf Gardevoir, and has a resistance against Azumarill's Aqua Jet. The unfortunate reality for Hydreigon is that it's simply too weak. Even against the aforementioned Gardevoir, outspeeding it has little benefits when Gardevoir simply lives any attack and kills it outright in return. In general, even, Hydreigon fails to provide the firepower that Honchkrow or Hoopa-U can. Hydreigon relies heavily on its impressive coverage and heavily on items like Life Orb or Expert Belt to bolster its poor offenses.

Krookodile is a third option, that has access to Moxie to potentially threaten unprepared teams. But unfortunately, Krookodile's coverage is severely limited. Its one saving grace is the ability to threaten out Fairy team that lost Togekiss after a +1 Moxie boost. Other than that, it fails to do anything meaningful versus Fighting, and drops to priority of pretty much any form.

The final Choice Scarf user I mentioned was Tyranitar. It's just not possible on Dark to run Choice Scarf Tyranitar. Its role as a reliable Stealth Rock setter, Special Defense wall, and general utility provider (with moves like Fire Blast, Pursuit, Thunder Wave) just cannot be replaced without severe costs. And if one truly wanted to run Choice Scarf Tyranitar, its speed still has so much to ask for and it doesn't provide the coverage or power Hoopa-U did.

This is all just talking about the hole Dark would have to fill because it loses its premier Choice Scarf user. Consider the matchups Dark suddenly becomes very pressed to defeat. Fighting becomes even more oppressive, as Hoopa-U is the key to taking out threats against the Dark team. With the support of Mandibuzz and Sableye, Hoopa-U was the backbone of the offense in Dark. No Pokemon can replace it, as Honchkrow suffers from crippling speed (It's slower than every common Fighting Pokemon except for Conkeldurr, as Breloom outspeeds the Adamant Honchkrow) and its Sucker Punch simply doesn't do the damage necessary due to the type disadvantage. Hydreigon has the mild benefit of having a Dragon typing, making it able to check Keldeo... except that Hydreigon can't actually kill Keldeo without a Life Orb, which is going back to the Choice Scarf issue and the role compression Hoopa-U provides. Without recovery, Hydreigon can only come in against Keldeo so many times before it eventually dies. Fighting really won't be threatened by any Pokemon that replaces Hoopa-U. Speaking of Keldeo, without the support of Hoopa-U's Choice Scarf Hyperspace Hole, a Substitute-Calm Mind Keldeo will walk right through any Dark team (This can be extrapolated to all other Sub users, as the Hyperspace moves are critical to defeating them).

Also consider Fairy, which Hoopa-U could combat with an incredibly powerful Gunk Shot. Fairy already is a cripplingly bad matchup, and to lose its only real way of winning is absolutely devastating. What Pokemon can possibly replace that Gunk Shot? Pangoro, which dies to any Fairy move provided by even a completely uninvested Whimsicott (Moonblast) or Klefki (Play Rough)? Bisharp is the other key to Dark's victory, but fails to be able to reliably take out either of Fairy's Mega-evolution options (Diancie must be caught on the switch, which will never happen, and Gardevoir can be difficult to defeat vs. Will-o-Wisp or Substitute variants) or anything faster than it without 2 or 3 Swords Dances to boost the resisted Sucker Punch.

Consider its position as a revenge killer. What exactly will replace it? It's a 284 Choice Scarf boosted Speed Pokemon that has immense coverage coming from base 160 Attack and base 170 Special Attack. Will Dark use a Life Orb Weavile, which is weaker, slower, and has no coverage at all? The aforementioned Choice Scarf users all have their pitfalls as revenge killers who rely heavily on Life Orb to eke out those crucial kills and thus will be prohibitively slow.

I haven't even discussed the other type matchups, where Hoopa-U is a premium wallbreaker in. This would be for example Electric's Zapdos/Rotom-W core, Grass/Poison's Mega-Venusaur that simply won't die anymore, Flying's already difficult to break Skarmory/Zapdos core, and Stall Water's core in general. Dark absolutely needs Hoopa-U because as it stands, it won't stand a chance without it.

So I'll conclude by asking you: is banning Hoopa-U from Psychic so absolutely important to us, that we are willing to cripple Dark completely?
I agree whole heartedly with your points. I just want to reiterate the things I mentioned on the ladder discussion thread.

A lot of us agreed for a while the metagame has definitely adapted to where almost all types can handle, with only Ghost needing a check for it (which they usually carry Mega Sableye as a Knock Off absorber).

Like I mentioned earlier this morning, if we remove Hoopa from Psychic, it'll still be just as good as it was with it, ans we have the usage stats of previous months to prove that.

Dark like Eien was saying, will definitely suffer with losing it. Looking at previous months (also noting Mega Altaria was still around), Dark was a sorta below average type with losing Greninja. Now with Hoopa, they have an offensive force against fighting and fairy, as well as much apreciated coverage it sorely lacked before. Hoopa is definatley good compensation for no Greninja, I can agree strongly with that.

This situation in a sense parallels with Scizor. Consider this: if we ban it, types that struggle heavily against it (namely ice and rock) would still be just as bad, and steel would be more or less still excellent. This is the same thing with Hoopa, psychic would still be just as great without it. Unlike Scizor however, nothing severely struggles to check it, like I mentioned, the metagame has already adapted to it.

With all that said, I wish everyone best of luck laddering, and think about your decisions before you make them.

Tl;Dr I don't see a need to ban it if it's doing more good than harm, much less harm in that matter. Why fix what's not broken?
 
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[Edit: Added more detail on Hoopa's usual sets, and more explanations on how both types are affected]

Hoopa-U has insanely good Attacking stats of 160 / 170, and a decent speed of 80 which makes its LO set one of the best wallbreakers in Psychic and Dark. It also uses a good Scarf set, which can kill faster Pokemon and still have insane power. It can run Special, Physical, or the more common Mixed, making it quite a hastle to prepare for. It's coverage is also not bad either. Drain Punch allows it to kill threats to Psychic like Tyranitar, Heatran, Hydreigon, and others, including a lot of Steel and Dark types, and get some HP back. Gunk Shop provides an answer to Fairy types in both types, and even if it is unreliable due to its poor accuracy, it still dents Fairy teams quite badly. Energy Ball can kill Ground and Water types quite easily, which Psychic can struggle with. It has Knock Off, Hyperspace Fury and Dark Pulse as Dark STAB and ZHB, Psyshock, Psychic and Hyperspace Hole as Psychic STAB, all very reliable and powerful moves.

Personally, as a Psychic player, I can agree with other users in saying that Psychic will still be as excellent as it was before, even if it loses Hoopa-U, a great wallbreaker, scarefer and Ghost answer. Just looking at all stats from months before can preety much prove that even though Psychic does lose a great Pokemon, it will still be a top tier type, and in that sense, the answer doesn't matter much.

However, Dark will lose a great Pokemon, that serves as a good answer to Fighting and Fairy, as well as other things it struggles with. Having Gunk Shot really helps it defeat Fairy types much more easily, and if Hoopa-U is banned, the closest Dark will have is Sludge Bomb Zoroark and Houndoom. It provides a good offensive Pokemon to a type that is quite defensive, at least from my experience with Dark. It defenetly will make Dark's usage go down, even if by only a small ammount, as it will now be quite more vulnerable to some of its old answers.

However, I feel like if Hoopa-U is banned, the metagame will adapt, just like it has when Hoopa-U was first released. People adapted to Hoopa-U, and now it's got a plethora of answers in most types. This ban will affect Dark quite a lot, but Dark will still be a mid to high tier type, and Dark players will have to change their teams and playstyles a lot. Newer players may now find Dark much harder, since it lacks that great answer to common weaknesses.

However, I feel like a ban for Hoopa-U is not needed at this current time. People, like I and others have said, have gotten used to playing vs Hoopa-U, even as unpredictable as it is. I feel like banning Hoopa will just cripple a type that doesn't really need to be weakened, and have no effect on Psychic.

So my opinion on this, after a lot of thinking, is keep Hoopa-U.
 
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Talonflame was banned because of its existence on Flying and making it more overpowered than it was. Same with Skymin. Kyurem-White would destroy everything on Dragon. So what the difference? If we don't ban, Hoopa-U will keep destroying everything on Psychic...
Hoopa-U on Psychic is very good, but it's not because of a ban that Psychic will stop being good. Hoopa's not broken, or anything close to it, in Psychic. In fact, a lot of people have started running common answers to it on every team they make, due to it being such a good offensive mon, which means now people have realised Hoopa-U is not broken.

Kyurem-W, for example, had little checks when used in Dragon, and had an amazing type, good speed and coverage, and it wasn't even frail, it could take various hits.

Hoopa lacks the defensive capablity, even if it has good SpDef, has a terrible defensive typing, and its speed isn't high, so it gets outsped by a variety of common threats, especially vs Hyper Offense and Ballance Teams. Faster Scarfers like Jirachi, Lando-T, Victini, etc. are becoming more used on the ladder, and they provide a very good answer to Hoopa, expecially if they have access to U-Turn.

So I don't agree with you, when you say that Hoopa-U ''destroys everything'' if used in Psychic Teams, as even if it's an amazing offensive threat, it has quite a number of answers and why should we be fixing what's not broken?
 
Hoopa-U on Psychic is very good, but it's not because of a ban that Psychic will stop being good. Hoopa's not broken, or anything close to it, in Psychic. In fact, a lot of people have started running common answers to it on every team they make, due to it being such a good offensive mon, which means now people have realised Hoopa-U is not broken.

Kyurem-W, for example, had little checks when used in Dragon, and had an amazing type, good speed and coverage, and it wasn't even frail, it could take various hits.

Hoopa lacks the defensive capablity, even if it has good SpDef, has a terrible defensive typing, and its speed isn't high, so it gets outsped by a variety of common threats, especially vs Hyper Offense and Ballance Teams. Faster Scarfers like Jirachi, Lando-T, Victini, etc. are becoming more used on the ladder, and they provide a very good answer to Hoopa, expecially if they have access to U-Turn.

So I don't agree with you, when you say that Hoopa-U ''destroys everything'' if used in Psychic Teams, as even if it's an amazing offensive threat, it has quite a number of answers and why should we be fixing what's not broken?
Maybe it doesn't destroy everything, but it is very versatile so you don't know what it's gonna run. Kyurem-White was quite obvious what its gonna run, Ice beam Draco Meteor Fusion Flare Earth Power/Roost. and as you said "a lot of people have started running common answers to it on every team they make, due to it being such a good offensive mon" - well now I guess its centralizing and everyone has to run an answer for it? and most answers arent complete answers due to hoopas versatility.

In other words, just to scout its moveset/item envolves quite possibly sacing a mon...is that a presence you want?

OK, everyone apparently wants to keep Hoopa-U for some reason...tbh then go argue and ban it only on psychic
 
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Even though I don't like making long posts on the forums, I'm going to make an effort and write something about Hoopa-Unbound. I'm not going to stay silent with all these false accusations going around.

Let's start from the beginning, suspecting Hoopa-Unbound was a mistake in my opinion. I do not see how it contributes to our dull state at this moment, when all we see around us is the same types repeating themselves. Taking a look at its movepool, we may see how versatile and unpredictable Hoopa-Unbound can be, but if you look closely at the metagame you will understand that it's not that mysterious. We shouldn't compare our pokemon's roles to OU ones and how it fare their and insert it here. Hoopa-Unbound carries with it known moves, Hyperspace fury, Hyperspace hole/Psychic, Energyball, Gunk shot (On dark), Drain Punch (On psychic) and Fire Punch from time-to-time. I might sound dumb to you, but that's all what my eyes have witnessed. Hyperspace fury is the obligatory STAB move alongside with Hole which makes Hoopa-U a strong mixed user. Drain Punch helps Psychic taking on Steel-types that are hard to deal and Eneryball helps against the omnipresent Water-types, on the other hand Gunk shot is preferred on dark due to it's capability of taking out Fairies, but I fail to see the unpredictability that Hoopa-Unbound gives and why is everyone afraid of it.

I'm going to try and understand your point of view and see Hoopa-Unbound being versatile and broken on Psychic. Yes, it can run many items (Scarf, Life Orb...) and helps psychic taking on their common weakness such as Steel-types. Yes, it can run a specially offensive set and abuses of its mixed appearance to bluff the opponent but don't tell me that it can't be checked by every type. Okay, from your point of view types such as Rock, Ghost, Psychic do cripples under the presence of Hoopa-Unbound, but isn't that the case of Mega Sableye vs Electric, Poison, Ghost? or Ghost, Psychic, Rock and Ground vs Mega Gyarados? or Fire, Dark against Mega Diancie? Please enlighten me more.

Also, heading toward Psychic do you really think it's going to use too much if Hoopa-Unbound is banned? Do you really think that will stop Psychic overpowering other types thanks to plethora viable psychic types that deals a lot of damage to other types such as Mega Gallade, Mega Medicham, Slowbro, Mega Gardevoir, Mew. I'm not saying they are broken OR ANYWHERE NEAR HOOPA-UNBOUND but I'm giving a bird view of Psychic's power that will not change even if we ban Hoopa-Unbound.


On the other hand, Dark which already has a limited amount of choices to take on their weakness unlike Psychic will suffer more in the hands of ORAS which was already cruel to it. I'm not going to talk too much about dark since everyone will etiquette me with the word ''Biased'' but I'm going to share an opinion about it. Even with the help of Hoopa-Unbound dark falls prey between the hands of common types such as Water-, Flying-, Fairy-, Fighting- types and to an extent Psychic- types and to Pokemon such as Manaphy, Mega Venusaur and will lack a viable scarf user. I have used Honchkrow for the purpose of compensating the cruelty of the matagame, it is effective but it isn't as powerful as Hoopa-U, and it doesn't provide enough coverage, bulk to accomplish its job. Against fighting it takes damage from recoil more than it deals, it isn't as strong to deal with Water- types and accomplish nothing against flying. I won't repeat what EienSeiryuu said, go to his post and read what would happen if Hoopa-Unbound gets banned in dark.

This said, Hoopa-Unbound as strong as it doesn't create holes in the metagame as everyone pretends it does, it may seem unpredictable but in all seriousness it's not with the games I have witnessed. And the question that asks itself over and over again, are we really going to sacrifice a balanced metagame that is a little bit scratched to make dark suffer more? Are we really willing to ban something that cripples a type without even scratching the other type? Are we really willing to create more unbalance? Decision is in the community's hands, don't make the bad move again.

In this second part of the post, I'd like to derail a little bit and dive deeper in the type-ban only decision. What was the reason that made us make this decision? In most cases, we are seeing that a Pokemon is deemed broken in a type but banning it hurts the type that it's not broken in it taking for example, Hoopa-Unbound and Mega Sableye. I remember we did that policy because new users will find difficulties integrating the metagame, but was is it a sage decision? We're an OM and not a tier, so complex bans must be issued to makes the metagame balanced specially in Monotype, a restricted field. Also is it fun for a newcomer to play Monotype and see the same type over and over again just for the sole reason that X Pokemon is broken in Type B but Type Z needs it so badly that it becomes one of the worst types without it. Why is Aegislash allowed such privilege but not Hoopa-Unbound or Mega Sableye. I think it's time to review that policy because the metagame has become dull, and people doesn't like seeing the same types repeating themselves on ladder. I'm ready for the hate tbh, but that's what I needed to get off my chest because I completely disagree with the suspect.
 
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MZ

And now for something completely different
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I'm not motivated enough to write/read even half of the paragraphs as some people here have written but I'm really unconvinced of this thing's ban from the get-go. Unlike other banned things, it doesn't just 6-0 entire types. It beats playstyles, namely stall and balance have a harder matchup, but so do a lot of stalbreakers that don't have switch-ins on opposing types. Like, even the things it has type advantage against don't just lose, Hoopa can't 6-0 psychic it just puts more pressure from its naturally good matchup. It's a good mon for punishing passive teams, and it can't even run through certain types as effectively as other mons like Scizor or Keldeo can. Why is this mon, which is very scary versus bulkier playstyles and then just another thing you cant switch into versus more offensive styles, too good at what it does, and why are other things like garde not?
 

sceeeeeenes

Banned deucer.
The day they removed type bans was the start of a really dull metagame. To this day im baffled by that decision. Monotype will never become an official tier so i don't understand why we act like one. Monotype was much more fun with type bans. Obviously mons like mega mawile and greninja wont return but stuff like zard x on fire could be a possibility. Anyway Dream Eater Gengar your post was pretty perfect regarding the state of the metagame.
 
The day they removed type bans was the start of a really dull metagame. To this day im baffled by that decision. Monotype will never become an official tier so i don't understand why we act like one. Monotype was much more fun with type bans. Obviously mons like mega mawile and greninja wont return but stuff like zard x on fire could be a possibility. Anyway Dream Eater Gengar your post was pretty perfect regarding the state of the metagame.
With that attitude it won't.

Anyway, I hate to go off topic from the current suspect but Aegislash should have been suspected before this so it can either be banned or unbanned, instead of staying in-between and causing the subject to be brought up, as well as comparisons.
 
I've always believed that Hoopa-U is an incredibly powerful Pokemon, but I'm very wary of giving it a global ban. I won't argue its presence on Psychic. The versatility it brings to the team is unparalleled. It ruins many matchups, primarily the Psychic mirror and the Ghost matchups. It has unpredictability on its side, to make matters worse.

That being said, I feel removing it from Dark is a mistake. Let's consider what roles Hoopa-U can play on a Dark team. Unlike Psychic, Dark fails to have a good selection for speed control. Sucker Punch, while immensely powerful and a form of speed control of its own, is woefully unreliable. Further, it's resisted by Dark's weak matchups, matchups Hoopa-U comes in to save the day, such as Fighting and Fairy.

As an alternative Choice Scarf user, Dark has... Krookodile, Hydreigon, Honchkrow, and Tyranitar. All of these simply lack the coverage that Hoopa-U can provide. Where Honchkrow can pretty much always get a safe kill versus Fighting, it fails to have similar effectiveness against Fairy, a type that Dark struggles against and that Hoopa-U previously checked. Honchkrow also very much enjoys being able to switch between moves and has access to Sucker Punch, resulting in Choice Scarf being a rather undesirable set to run (Not even mentioning its absolutely atrocious speed tier, only being able to speed tie while holding a Choice Scarf against Speed 115 Pokemon).

Hydreigon might be useful versus Fairy, as it can carry Flash Cannon, importantly outspeeds Choice Scarf Gardevoir, and has a resistance against Azumarill's Aqua Jet. The unfortunate reality for Hydreigon is that it's simply too weak. Even against the aforementioned Gardevoir, outspeeding it has little benefits when Gardevoir simply lives any attack and kills it outright in return. In general, even, Hydreigon fails to provide the firepower that Honchkrow or Hoopa-U can. Hydreigon relies heavily on its impressive coverage and heavily on items like Life Orb or Expert Belt to bolster its poor offenses.

Krookodile is a third option, that has access to Moxie to potentially threaten unprepared teams. But unfortunately, Krookodile's coverage is severely limited. Its one saving grace is the ability to threaten out Fairy team that lost Togekiss after a +1 Moxie boost. Other than that, it fails to do anything meaningful versus Fighting, and drops to priority of pretty much any form.

The final Choice Scarf user I mentioned was Tyranitar. It's just not possible on Dark to run Choice Scarf Tyranitar. Its role as a reliable Stealth Rock setter, Special Defense wall, and general utility provider (with moves like Fire Blast, Pursuit, Thunder Wave) just cannot be replaced without severe costs. And if one truly wanted to run Choice Scarf Tyranitar, its speed still has so much to ask for and it doesn't provide the coverage or power Hoopa-U did.

This is all just talking about the hole Dark would have to fill because it loses its premier Choice Scarf user. Consider the matchups Dark suddenly becomes very pressed to defeat. Fighting becomes even more oppressive, as Hoopa-U is the key to taking out threats against the Dark team. With the support of Mandibuzz and Sableye, Hoopa-U was the backbone of the offense in Dark. No Pokemon can replace it, as Honchkrow suffers from crippling speed (It's slower than every common Fighting Pokemon except for Conkeldurr, as Breloom outspeeds the Adamant Honchkrow) and its Sucker Punch simply doesn't do the damage necessary due to the type disadvantage. Hydreigon has the mild benefit of having a Dragon typing, making it able to check Keldeo... except that Hydreigon can't actually kill Keldeo without a Life Orb, which is going back to the Choice Scarf issue and the role compression Hoopa-U provides. Without recovery, Hydreigon can only come in against Keldeo so many times before it eventually dies. Fighting really won't be threatened by any Pokemon that replaces Hoopa-U. Speaking of Keldeo, without the support of Hoopa-U's Choice Scarf Hyperspace Hole, a Substitute-Calm Mind Keldeo will walk right through any Dark team (This can be extrapolated to all other Sub users, as the Hyperspace moves are critical to defeating them).

Also consider Fairy, which Hoopa-U could combat with an incredibly powerful Gunk Shot. Fairy already is a cripplingly bad matchup, and to lose its only real way of winning is absolutely devastating. What Pokemon can possibly replace that Gunk Shot? Pangoro, which dies to any Fairy move provided by even a completely uninvested Whimsicott (Moonblast) or Klefki (Play Rough)? Bisharp is the other key to Dark's victory, but fails to be able to reliably take out either of Fairy's Mega-evolution options (Diancie must be caught on the switch, which will never happen, and Gardevoir can be difficult to defeat vs. Will-o-Wisp or Substitute variants) or anything faster than it without 2 or 3 Swords Dances to boost the resisted Sucker Punch.

Consider its position as a revenge killer. What exactly will replace it? It's a 284 Choice Scarf boosted Speed Pokemon that has immense coverage coming from base 160 Attack and base 170 Special Attack. Will Dark use a Life Orb Weavile, which is weaker, slower, and has no coverage at all? The aforementioned Choice Scarf users all have their pitfalls as revenge killers who rely heavily on Life Orb to eke out those crucial kills and thus will be prohibitively slow.

I haven't even discussed the other type matchups, where Hoopa-U is a premium wallbreaker in. This would be for example Electric's Zapdos/Rotom-W core, Grass/Poison's Mega-Venusaur that simply won't die anymore, Flying's already difficult to break Skarmory/Zapdos core, and Stall Water's core in general. Dark absolutely needs Hoopa-U because as it stands, it won't stand a chance without it.

So I'll conclude by asking you: is banning Hoopa-U from Psychic so absolutely important to us, that we are willing to cripple Dark completely?
I really don't think Hoopa-U will cripple Dark that badly, to be honest. Besides the other options you have mentioned, it can still do great by relying on Mega-Sableye versus lots of matchup (let's make good use of it since it didn't get banned on the last suspect), thanks to the support Dark has to pull that effectively. Also, do keep in mind that, keeping Hoopa-Unbound on Dark also means keeping it on Psychic. I really would rather let Dark have a much harder time vs disadvantageous matchups than alleviating some of its weakness while Hoopa-Unbound destroys most of the low tier types on Psychic because of the lack of switchins. Furthermore, saying that ''Dark needs it'' is far from a good argument (actually a bad one), especially considering it should be mainly helping versus only two types that Dark is already meant to struggle against anyway.

As you have said, the fact it is unpredictable, has huge wallbreaking power, and makes most of the low-tier types to struggle against it are very strong reasons for banning it, and I do think it is important that Psychic loses it. It will give lots of other types the opportunity to have a better type versus Psychic and Dark, at cost of affecting nearly only Dark's worst matchups.

So, please, I hope you people think carefully before taking a decision, let's not commit the same mistake from the last suspect. A centralizing force on Psychic shouldn't be left unnoticed.
 
Since the most common playstyle in Monotype is Balance, and Hoopa destroys Balance, should we not ban it? So well you can't really say Hoopa-U is balanced when it has a very strong wallbreaking power and versatility. Banning Hoopa-U would add much more to the meta than subtracting from it. Getting used to handling hoopa-U doesn't make it any less broken. And Dark can still do fine without it, thanks to mega-sableye + support. It would help lots of low tier types to have an easier time vs Psychic.

It wouldn't nerf Dark that badly. Counter Argument: Fairies now destroy dark much more easily. Dark is supposed to lose vs Fairy anyways. The thing is that Hoopa-U helped vs Fairy and Fighting but it destroyed so many stuff that Dark wasn't even meant to beat. People intentionally put Hoopa on teams so that it can destroy other types easily. If you are putting hoopa-unbound for fairy and fighting, you are beating ghost and tons of other types. Really, we aren't keeping a single mon so a type does better vs disadvantage and shits on everything else. Stop making excuse that ''Dark needs it'' and let's turn the fact Mega-Sableye didn't get banned to our advantage.

It is just so powerful and versatile, it has nearly no switchins. Saying ''dark needs it'' and ''hoopa-u is weak to priority'' are bad arguments, since that Dark can do perfectly fine without it (maybe except vs fairy and fighting but those are matchups dark is meant to lose anyways). To be honest I would rather nerf dark just to remove it from psychic. I do think Hoopa-U is a important piece on Dark teams, but well, even though it might not be that overpowered at all on Dark, it is a force to be reckoned with in Psychic and that most types (especially low tier ones) have difficulties on handling. And still, Dark could still do fine vs the most majority of matchups even without it, it would just struggle versus disadvantage more.

~From the wise Juleocesar

Also, aganist fighting and fairy dark will be fine. It's got mandibuzz and mega-sableye to check fighting and bisharp to check fairy. Also for the scarf issue, Hydreigon and Honchkrow aren't all that bad of scarfers are they?

Remember what scpinion said: "does hoopa-U ban add or subtract from the metagame?'' And that my friend is up to you.
 
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To reply to the ''Arguments'' mentioned above. First of all juleocesar if you think ''Dark needs it'' is a bad argument then your argument can be classified in the same category. Yes, Dark to have good support Pokemon but do you really think they can handle the matchups alone? Do you really think the sole reason Dark needs Hoopa-Unbound is because of disadvantage against its weakness, I beg to differ buddy. Hoopa-U brings so much to the table for Dark, making it a good type. Hoopa-U brings to dark a reliable scarfer, coverage in Psychic, Grass and Poison attacks, doesn't let Pokemon such as Manaphy, Mega Venusaur cripple dark easily. Is that fair? On the other side you talk about how Hoopa-Unbound is unpredictable but that's also false. Its moves are quite predictable in Monotype and on both types, let's not use OU arguments and incorporate them in Monotype. Can you tell me which ''Low tier'' types suffer because Hoopa-Unbound is in the metagame? Poison? No. Ice? No. Grass? No. Electric? No. The same argument was provided to ban Mega Sableye but it wasn't banned, so why would Hoopa-Unbound be banned because it is guilty of things it doesn't do unlike Mega Sableye. Would banning Hoopa-Unbound make psychic less OP? No it won't. Hoopa-Unbound is just the cherry in the plate of fruits.

To respond to your question IronicNinja, banning Hoopa-U subtract from the metagame, banning it hurts more than it brings good, what's the point then? At the end of the day, Psychic will always be good and will be in the same usage spot but on the other hand dark will fall. Have we done anything good if that happens? No.
 
To reply to the ''Arguments'' mentioned above. First of all juleocesar if you think ''Dark needs it'' is a bad argument then your argument can be classified in the same category. Yes, Dark to have good support Pokemon but do you really think they can handle the matchups alone? Do you really think the sole reason Dark needs Hoopa-Unbound is because of disadvantage against its weakness, I beg to differ buddy. Hoopa-U brings so much to the table for Dark, making it a good type. Hoopa-U brings to dark a reliable scarfer, coverage in Psychic, Grass and Poison attacks, doesn't let Pokemon such as Manaphy, Mega Venusaur cripple dark easily. Is that fair? On the other side you talk about how Hoopa-Unbound is unpredictable but that's also false. Its moves are quite predictable in Monotype and on both types, let's not use OU arguments and incorporate them in Monotype. Can you tell me which ''Low tier'' types suffer because Hoopa-Unbound is in the metagame? Poison? No. Ice? No. Grass? No. Electric? No. The same argument was provided to ban Mega Sableye but it wasn't banned, so why would Hoopa-Unbound be banned because it is guilty of things it doesn't do unlike Mega Sableye. Would banning Hoopa-Unbound make psychic less OP? No it won't. Hoopa-Unbound is just the cherry in the plate of fruits.

To respond to your question IronicNinja, banning Hoopa-U subtract from the metagame, banning it hurts more than it brings good, what's the point then? At the end of the day, Psychic will always be good and will be in the same usage spot but on the other hand dark will fall. Have we done anything good if that happens? No.
I would have to disagree. Usage doesn't necessarily mean a type is balanced/viable, and I think with Hoopa-U's ban, even though Psychic might be overused and all, that will give an opportunity for lots of types to grow on usage and have a better time against Psychic and Dark. And the fact it adds so much to Dark is also another reason why it actually should be banned...It makes several types struggle to Dark even though they aren't even meant to. Grass, Poison, and Ice DOES struggle vs Hoopa-Unbound, so your argument is also invalid here.

On a final note, banning Hoopa-Unbound DOES add to the metagame, because it will give lots of types a way easier time versus Psychic, regardless of whether the usage will or not stay the same. Centralization and balance are way more important than how much a type is actually being used, so keep that in mind.
 
I would have to disagree. Usage doesn't necessarily mean a type is balanced/viable, and I think with Hoopa-U's ban, even though Psychic might be overused and all, that will give an opportunity for lots of types to grow on usage and have a better time against Psychic and Dark. And the fact it adds so much to Dark is also another reason why it actually should be banned...It makes several types struggle to Dark even though they aren't even meant to. Grass, Poison, and Ice DOES struggle vs Hoopa-Unbound, so your argument is also invalid here.

On a final note, banning Hoopa-Unbound DOES add to the metagame, because it will give lots of types a way easier time versus Psychic, regardless of whether the usage will or not stay the same. Centralization and balance are way more important than how much a type is actually being used, so keep that in mind.
None of those types struggle against it. If anything you should of mentioned ghost, but even that sableye threatens it pretty good.

Ice can check it very easily with Kyurem B/Avalugg. Scarf kyurem even is very hard to wall, and during a late game sweep, gg hoopa. Avalugg can tank every attack except probably focus blast, and be able to revenge kill w/ avalanche.

Poison...dude, why the hell do you think that has a hard time? Scolipede (at +1) and Beedrill outspeed it, Skunk and Drapion easily switch into it and pursuit trap it, seriously what were you thinking saying they have a hard time?

Grass, even that does not have a hard time either. Shiftry can easily revenge kill, Ferro can wall it w/o fire punch (which on dark it typically doesn't) and focus blast (but even with that, Gyro Ball is a clean KO). Cradily can wall it w/o Drain Punch, and the curse set especially checks that.

That being said, please think before you post.
 
I would have to disagree. Usage doesn't necessarily mean a type is balanced/viable, and I think with Hoopa-U's ban, even though Psychic might be overused and all, that will give an opportunity for lots of types to grow on usage and have a better time against Psychic and Dark. And the fact it adds so much to Dark is also another reason why it actually should be banned...It makes several types struggle to Dark even though they aren't even meant to. Grass, Poison, and Ice DOES struggle vs Hoopa-Unbound, so your argument is also invalid here.

On a final note, banning Hoopa-Unbound DOES add to the metagame, because it will give lots of types a way easier time versus Psychic, regardless of whether the usage will or not stay the same. Centralization and balance are way more important than how much a type is actually being used, so keep that in mind.
I know that usage doesn't necessarily mean if a type I balanced, but I fail to see how you're giving more types to grow on usage if Hoopa-Unbound gets banned? What is going to see usage? Ghost? Other low tiered types don't even struggle against Hoopa-Unbound. Grass has a lot of Pokemon to take on Hoopa-U ranging from Breloom, Fast Scarfers, Whimsicott, Ferrothorn, Mega Venusaur..., Poison? Scolipede, Skuntank, Drapion, Crobat. I also fail to see how does Ice struggles against Hoopa-Unbound. Also why did you use my argument to counter-argument me? ''Hoopa-Unbound adds a lot to dark that's why it should be banned'' how does that follow the banning philosophy? If we follow that logic, Volcarona should be banned, Mega Gyarados should be banned, Mega Sableye should be banned. Banning Hoopa-Unbound doesn't add anything to the metagame, types won't be able to beat Psychic easier since they have a plethora of Pokemon to abuse. ''Centralization and balance are way more important than how much a type is actually being used, so keep that in mind.'' I don't know how we are going to balance the metagame with fixing the scratch instead of fixing the holes. If we do want to balance the metagame and make the meta balanced, why isn't Mega Gyarados an option here? It cripples Rock-, Ground-, Psychic- and Ghost- types, which is a lot more than Hoopa-Unbound.
 
None of those types struggle against it. If anything you should of mentioned ghost, but even that sableye threatens it pretty good.

Ice can check it very easily with Kyurem B/Avalugg. Scarf kyurem even is very hard to wall, and during a late game sweep, gg hoopa. Avalugg can tank every attack except probably focus blast, and be able to revenge kill w/ avalanche.

Poison..dude, why the hell do you think that has a hard time. Scolipede (at +1) and Beedrill outspeed it, Skunk and Drapion easily switch into it and pursuit trap it, seriously what were you thinking saying they have a hard time?

Grass, even that does not have a hard time either. Shiftry can easily revenge kill, Ferro can wall it w/o fire punch (which on dark it typically doesn't) and focus blast (but even with that, Gyro Ball is a clean KO). Cradily can wall it w/o Drain Punch, and the curse set especially checks that.

That being said, please think before you post.
None of the answers you stated actually make it have an ''easy time'' against Hoopa-Unbound. Avalugg cannot take Psychic/Hyperspace Hole, and Ice struggles even harder once you have lost those mons. Scolipede on Poison IS NOT A COUNTER (Hyperspace Fury/Hyperspace Hole BREAKS PROTECT), and Skuntank/Drapion are really the only possible switchins, which aren't really hard to wear down either, thanks to the lack of reliable recovery of the mentioned Pokemon.

About Grass, you are wrong AGAIN. There's no way ferrothorn can ever wall Hoopa-Unbound, unless it is locked on a Psychic move. Hyperspace Fury still puts a dent to it, and as for Cradily, Hyperspace Fury 2HKOes it, as shown by the calc:

180 Atk Hoopa Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cradily: 187-222 (49.7 - 59%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (this is the most used spread on Hoopa-Unbound on Dark, with 26% usage, according to January's statistics).

252 Atk Hoopa Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cradily: 196-232 (52.1 - 61.7%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (that set is the third most used and puts an even harder dent.

I guess I don't even need to mention Shiftry here, since it is not a counter either and Sucker Punch is an unreliable way of checking since it often puts you into a 50/50 situation.

So well, I think you are the one to think before posting. Using the words ''wall'' when not even thinking about its definition can make your posts feel be a lot of nonsense.
 
None of those types struggle against it. If anything you should of mentioned ghost, but even that sableye threatens it pretty good.

Ice can check it very easily with Kyurem B/Avalugg. Scarf kyurem even is very hard to wall, and during a late game sweep, gg hoopa. Avalugg can tank every attack except probably focus blast, and be able to revenge kill w/ avalanche.

Poison..dude, why the hell do you think that has a hard time. Scolipede (at +1) and Beedrill outspeed it, Skunk and Drapion easily switch into it and pursuit trap it, seriously what were you thinking saying they have a hard time?

Grass, even that does not have a hard time either. Shiftry can easily revenge kill, Ferro can wall it w/o fire punch (which on dark it typically doesn't) and focus blast (but even with that, Gyro Ball is a clean KO). Cradily can wall it w/o Drain Punch, and the curse set especially checks that.

That being said, please think before you post.
Ice: First of all you can switch in Mega-Sableye on an expect Outrage and burn it. You can once again switch out into Mega-Sableye on Avalugg.

Poison: Yeah Scolipede is an issue but you can easily check with Mandibuzz. Same with Beedrill, and you just have to play carefully vs Skuntank and Drapion (who
btw can not one shot Hoopa unless they are like max attack band or something)

Grass: Shiftry with what? Sucker Punch? Then switch out once again into Mega-Sableye or Mandibuzz. Ferrothorn? Mega-Sableye. Cradily? You've got Bisharp for that.

I know that usage doesn't necessarily mean if a type I balanced, but I fail to see how you're giving more types to grow on usage if Hoopa-Unbound gets banned? What is going to see usage? Ghost? Other low tiered types don't even struggle against Hoopa-Unbound. Grass has a lot of Pokemon to take on Hoopa-U ranging from Breloom, Fast Scarfers, Whimsicott, Ferrothorn, Mega Venusaur..., Poison? Scolipede, Skuntank, Drapion, Crobat. I also fail to see how does Ice struggles against Hoopa-Unbound. Also why did you use my argument to counter-argument me? ''Hoopa-Unbound adds a lot to dark that's why it should be banned'' how does that follow the banning philosophy? If we follow that logic, Volcarona should be banned, Mega Gyarados should be banned, Mega Sableye should be banned. Banning Hoopa-Unbound doesn't add anything to the metagame, types won't be able to beat Psychic easier since they have a plethora of Pokemon to abuse. ''Centralization and balance are way more important than how much a type is actually being used, so keep that in mind.'' I don't know how we are going to balance the metagame with fixing the scratch instead of fixing the holes. If we do want to balance the metagame and make the meta balanced, why isn't Mega Gyarados an option here? It cripples Rock-, Ground-, Psychic- and Ghost- types, which is a lot more than Hoopa-Unbound.
Grass: Breloom...dies to Psychic STAB, fast scarfers...pretty sure Rotom-C can't one shot Hoopa without Signal Beam, Gunk Shot Whimsicott to death, Ferrothorn-go into Mega-Sableye, Mega-Venusaur dies to Psychic STAB.

Poison: Crobat Doesn't even outspeed and dies to Psychic STAB

Volcarona is not as versatile as Hoopa and dies to Stealth Rocks; Mega Gyarados maybe we should suspect this too; and yes Mega Sableye should be banned. And Rock has Mega-Diancie, Ground has things like Quagsire, Psychic has Bolt Strike Victini and Tbolt coverage, Ghost has Mega Sableye.

Dont just consider the mon itself you can also consider its teammates.
 
I know that usage doesn't necessarily mean if a type I balanced, but I fail to see how you're giving more types to grow on usage if Hoopa-Unbound gets banned? What is going to see usage? Ghost? Other low tiered types don't even struggle against Hoopa-Unbound. Grass has a lot of Pokemon to take on Hoopa-U ranging from Breloom, Fast Scarfers, Whimsicott, Ferrothorn, Mega Venusaur..., Poison? Scolipede, Skuntank, Drapion, Crobat. I also fail to see how does Ice struggles against Hoopa-Unbound. Also why did you use my argument to counter-argument me? ''Hoopa-Unbound adds a lot to dark that's why it should be banned'' how does that follow the banning philosophy? If we follow that logic, Volcarona should be banned, Mega Gyarados should be banned, Mega Sableye should be banned. Banning Hoopa-Unbound doesn't add anything to the metagame, types won't be able to beat Psychic easier since they have a plethora of Pokemon to abuse. ''Centralization and balance are way more important than how much a type is actually being used, so keep that in mind.'' I don't know how we are going to balance the metagame with fixing the scratch instead of fixing the holes. If we do want to balance the metagame and make the meta balanced, why isn't Mega Gyarados an option here? It cripples Rock-, Ground-, Psychic- and Ghost- types, which is a lot more than Hoopa-Unbound.
The fact certain mons haven't been on a suspect yet doesn't mean Hoopa-Unbound should stay on the metagame. Mega-Gyarados does bring difficulties to those types, but its sets are way more predictable and it is way less threatening when you try to consider a wider amount of types, and not just the ones you mentioned. If you believe mons such as Mega-Gyarados aren't balanced because ''It is an instawin versus lots of types'', then that should be brought into discussion on somewhere else. About Volcarona, your argument is pretty much invalid thanks to the 4x weakness to Stealth Rock and it isn't really that hard to check. As for the Grass/Poison/Ice answers, just look to my posting referring to Stunfisk The Great's.
 
I like how we're actually seeing both sides of banning or unbanning Hoopa-U being brought up.

Anyways, I can't really say much of my own opinion without making it seem like I copied it from someone else so I'll make it short. Removing Unbound from Dark will make Fighting and Fairy to deal with although that won't stop Dark from being a viable high/mid tier typing. Taking it away from Psychic on the otherhand will definitely nerf it a lot as Unbound can run anything it wants (including Sub + 3 Attacks) and it has all the team support as well be it either offensive or defensive partners but considering all the options Psychic teams have, it won't stop Psychic from being one of the best.

Metagame-wise, yes, Hoopa-Unbound is centralizing. But is it broken? This is something I noticed was discussed a lot during the Mega Sab suspect. I used to want Mega Sab banned but after a while, I began to figure out better checks for it on types that otherwise struggle against it without being too gimmicky (ex: Acid Spray Tentacruel on Poison). This is also the case for Unbound as it has many checks such as scarfed U-Turners (enjoy the Psychic Mirror) and things that can pick it off on the physical side.

While Unbound destroys balance, I don't think banning it really is going to solve much but then again I have some of the most questionable opinions ever lol.

EDIT: Forget what I said, now I'm only seeing one side of the argument, and they are making very bad points on why Unbound should be banned :/
 
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The fact certain mons haven't been on a suspect yet doesn't mean Hoopa-Unbound should stay on the metagame. Mega-Gyarados does bring difficulties to those types, but its sets are way more predictable and it is way less threatening when you try to consider a wider amount of types, and not just the ones you mentioned. If you believe mons such as Mega-Gyarados aren't balanced because ''It is an instawin versus lots of types'', then that should be brought into discussion on somewhere else. About Volcarona, your argument is pretty much invalid thanks to the 4x weakness to Stealth Rock and it isn't really that hard to check. As for the Grass/Poison/Ice answers, just look to my posting referring to Stunfisk The Great's.
I wasn't actually referring them for a ban, but I was following your logic about why Hoopa-Unbound should be banned. I'm starting to repeat myself here that Hoopa-Unbound is predictable and the moves it runs on both types are known and evident.
 
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