Ladder Monotype [Read post #393 for Tiering Updates]

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no, you can only use pokemon on teams based on its base form, ie. no Pinsir on Mono-Flying, just as you can't use Castform on Mono-Water
 
I see that genesect isnt on that list there, so is he usable here? I cant decide on a type, but that would be a big push to use Bug
 
I see that genesect isnt on that list there, so is he usable here? I cant decide on a type, but that would be a big push to use Bug
The banlist for OU monotype is the same is the banlist for OU, so genesect isn't allowed.
Also, judging from the fact that the OP still has pre-pokebank information, I assume that the list in this thread hasn't been updated in a long time.
 
I'm actually surprised at the near complete lack of discussion around Monotype since it is far and away the most popular OM.
 
Monotype discussion shouldn't really focus on the individual mons, for the exact reason you stated. Instead, it should focus on the teams as a whole, and what those mons bring to the team. Filling certain roles, countering/checking teams that inherently have the advantage, etc. Things like previous discussions of how Flying-weak teams can counter the terror that is Talonflame. Teams matchups are SO much more important to monotype than standard.
 
best monotype = dark because STAB knock off
'nuff said
Thisisafake name is a retard cuz his evidence to support it is only one sentence that holds no explanation whatsoever nuff said. To support his claim however dark did get a good buff this gen due to the loss of steels resistance to it as well as the introduction of Knock off. However, with the introduction of fairies previous type combos didn't work anymore and thus Dark needs to adapt to these changes
 
I've been playing a lot of monotype lately and I think it's a really awesome tier and more people should be talking about it. It's definitely the best monotype there's ever been, mostly because it feels completely balanced and there's just more viable types than there's ever seemed to be.

I mean, the past two generations mono-fire has pretty much been a complete joke. Ninetales helped in 5th gen but she's just too unreliable and weak on her own. You're basically deciding to make most of your team be weak to Stealth Rock. That just doesn't work. It has also hurt bug but not quite as much because Forretress is a much more reliable spinner than...Torkoal? And then there's ice, which can be decent if it gets going but is at just such a massive disadvantage defensively.

This gen though, fire got massive buffs in that Charizard got an incredible couple of mega-evos, one of which that has the ever-important Drought, and Talonflame came to be as one of the most powerful Pokemon in the game. Talonflame alone can absolutely destroy several mono-teams and there's nothing those teams can really do to counter it. These two things alone make mono-fire capable of deploying just plain ridiculous hyper offense strategies and you can dominate almost anything that's not mono-dragon or mono-water. These things have resulted in mono-fire being a very viable team.

Other types have been strengthened massively by the new Pokemon or the potent mega-evolutions that have been introduced. Mono-bug got Mega Pinsir who can completely wreck with flying moves. Mono-psychic got Mega Gardevoir, which is a really strong Psychic type that has a very valuable neutrality to bug and dark moves. I just feel like mono-water, dragon, or steel aren't the obviously most powerful teams to go with anymore. Dragon got nerfed because fairies, and steel got nerfed because it lost some very important resistances to Dark and Ghost, despite getting access to Aegislash. Water is....still really good, but random neutral match-ups aren't completely doomed because there's just more power that's been distributed, mostly because of mega evolutions.

I just feel like the tier is extremely fun because you can experiment with so many types yet still have a very powerful team. I haven't really had a team yet that I thought was bad. The worst I've tried was probably Psychic actually, but even then I was able to dominate some completely neutral match-ups against teams that were Rock and Grass for example, so it still seemed pretty strong.

All in all, it's just best in a metagame like this if creativity is rewarded. In previous years, so many types just seemed completely outclassed but that's kept to a minimum with this gen, so that's why I like it so much.
 
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Pyritie

TAMAGO
is an Artist
I've been messing with a monobug team. On monobug either Shuckle or Forretress is basically required, as they're the only things that can really take down Talonflame. My teem wept openly at the banning of Genesect, but has still managed to hang in there and do way better than I expected. BP Scolipede + Mega Heracross has gotten me most of my wins.
Crustle? It's also got shell smash + sturdy
 

Beta.

Ruff Ruff amirite?
Sorry if this has been answered, but I couldn't find it. How do Mega Evolutions work? Can I use Pinsir in MonoFlying, Gyarados in MonoDark, or Ampharos in MonoDragon?
Not sure If this has been answered, but Mega evos are not allowed for if they gain a type. FOR EXAMPLE: mega gyarados is not allowed on dark teams, yet is allowed on flying teams... A little less confusing example. Mega ampharos is not allowed on dragon teams, yet is allowed on electric teams. BEcause the starting mon's type is not dragon.

Ya dig Me?
 
Thisisafake name is a retard cuz his evidence to support it is only one sentence that holds no explanation whatsoever nuff said. To support his claim however dark did get a good buff this gen due to the loss of steels resistance to it as well as the introduction of Knock off. However, with the introduction of fairies previous type combos didn't work anymore and thus Dark needs to adapt to these changes
I think you mean knock off's buff since it was around starting at gen 3
 
Talonflame is absolute anathema to Bug and Grass monotypes. Nigh impossible to stop with only Bug/Rock and Grass/Rock types being neutral to its STABs, none of which are exactly staples to their teams. My best bets at stopping it with my Bug team are typically Shuckle stalling with Toxic / Infestation, or Custap Forretress Explosion.

EDIT: Also, no. Kecleon is shit. It may see use in lower metas like NU or something, but it is so slow that the opponent can abuse Protean almost as easily as Color Change.
Why would you need speed when you got priority?
 
Some concerns were brought up to me about a potential meta-breaking Pokemon, and I wanted to bring it up here.

Talonflame in both Mono-Flying and Mono-Fire pretty much makes any type weak to Flying automatically unviable. This, of course, means Mono-Grass, Mono-Bug, and to a slightly lesser extent, Mono-Fighting. The problem with Talonflame is that, unlike in standard OU, you can't just slap a Rotom-Wash or a Heatran or a Tyranitar on your team and all it a day. Because you are confined to just one type, your options for checking Talonflame are extremely limited.

Now, a lot of you might say that this is simply something that you have to deal with in Monotype. Obviously a team weak to Flying or Fire is going to have a lot of trouble handling a Fire / Flying-type Pokemon. But this is different for other Pokemon. When you're running a Mono-Water team, you're going to need to make sure that you have an answer for Mega Venusaur. When you're running a Mono-Fighting team, you're going to want an answer to Mega Gardevoir. But offensively-based teams can just toss on a Choice Scarf Pokemon that can revenge kill Mega Gardevoir, and there are Water / Psychic and Water / Flying-type Pokemon to take care of Mega Venusaur. Hell, Mono-Water can even run Extrasensory Greninja and hope for the best when they're taking on a team with Mega Venusaur.

But you can't just outrun Talonflame. With its massive Speed and priority Brave Bird, you need something that can switch into it and take a hit, and you'll need something that can revenge kill it in case that check dies. But on Mono-Bug and Mono-Grass, what do you do?

I'm going to play some games and test out both Talonflame and these monotype teams, but in the meantime, give me your thoughts on Talonflame. Do you think it's broken? Do you think that it's manageable? Why? What can Mono-Grass, Mono-Bug, and Mono-Fighting do to take on Talonflame? Do they just accept a virtual auto-loss against it, or is there a way to beat it reliably? Tell me what you think.
 

Overseer Steel

Banned deucer.
There are many ways to beat talonflames. Mono fighting has Terrakion and Coballion to counter it. Mono grass has cradily. I think a more pressing issue in the monotype tier is Swift Swim
 
We'll discuss Swift Swim in the near future. I've heard a lot from people about it. But right now, the discussion is about Talonflame.

Also, your arguments are bad. Cradily is an incredibly shaky check:

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cradily: 172-204 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Terrakion can live one Brave Bird, but that's it:

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 256-303 (79.2 - 93.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Cobalion uh...

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 189-223 (58.3 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 378-446 (116.6 - 137.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

no?

People have brought up some legitimate arguments as to why Talonflame should stay in the Monotype room on PS, but I'd like to see them posted here as well. Include calcs in your posts if you need to. Show me replays of Mono-Bug and Mono-Grass handling Talonflame. But saying "these things beat it" when they can't even switch into it isn't going to convince me.
 
There are many ways to beat talonflames. Mono fighting has Terrakion and Coballion to counter it. Mono grass has cradily. I think a more pressing issue in the monotype tier is Swift Swim
The best Bug counter to Talonflame is Shedinja :P

Seriously though, fully physically defensive Cobalion takes over a third from switching in on a Brave Bird:

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cobalion: 142-168 (36.7 - 43.5%) -- 99.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cobalion: 122-146 (31.6 - 37.8%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Which means Talonflame can then kill it with a Flare Blitz if it's LO:

252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cobalion: 244-291 (63.2 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cobalion: 142-168 (36.7 - 43.5%) -- 99.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (for the sake of being thorough)

So that's Cobalion, with 91/129 defenses, almost always getting 3HKO'ed if not 2HKO'ed by Talonflame (if you add the LO values, it comes out to 386 total getting minimum damage both times.).

However, it can OHKO Talonflame with uninvested Stone Miss Edge. But there are a few problems with this:

1) Talonflame outspeeds Cobalion at just max speed even when Cobalion is max speed+Jolly. This means that it can KO Cobalion with a Flare Blitz before Cobalion has a chance if it's LO.

2) If Talonflame is CB, it can simply switch out in most situations. Sure, most Fire or Flying types are weak to Stone Edge, but it's not often that you see a MonoFire team without Infernape or Heatran or a MonoFlying team without Gliscor or Skarmory.

3) Stone Edge just has downright shoddy accuracy, whereas Talonflame is going to hit each and every one of its moves.

4) Talonflame has priority Roost, which is another option for LO sets. This also decreases the weakness to Stone Edge to only 2x.

I'll post stuff and things for Cradily and Terrakion later, that took a long time. Anyway, I hope this was helpful, it was my first real post ^.^

EDIT: Alright, here's Terrakion:

Brave Bird:

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Terrakion: 181-214 (46.8 - 55.4%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Terrakion: 157-187 (40.6 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Flare Blitz (to compare with Cobalion):

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Terrakion: 90-107 (23.3 - 27.7%) -- 78.7% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Terrakion: 78-94 (20.2 - 24.3%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

So Terrakion seems to be the most solid counter to Talonflame, but most of them aren't going to be running max Defense+HP, so the calcs that Treecko posted above for Terrakion are probably more relevant.

And Cradily:

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird/Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cradily: 172-204 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird/Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cradily: 149-177 (39.6 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

I grouped the Brave Bird and Flare Blitz calcs together because they do exactly the same damage to Cradily (but you should probably go for Flare Blitz for the 10% burn chance to be a troll).

Here are the calcs for Crustle, the most physically bulky Bug (Dwebble with Eviolite actually has 2.5 more in defense, but there's a difference of 20 base HP. I'm not going to bother calcing it because the difference isn't too big and they can both OHKO with Stone Edge.) who takes neutral damage from both Brave Bird and Flare Blitz & can kill it back with a Rock STAB (happy?):

252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird/Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Crustle: 126-149 (36.6 - 43.3%) -- 97.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird/Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Crustle: 145-172 (42.1 - 50%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Oh right, there's Shuckle. Well the calcs are below.
 
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Here are the calcs for Crustle, the most physically bulky Bug who takes neutral damage from both Brave Bird and Flare Blitz:

252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird/Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Crustle: 126-149 (36.6 - 43.3%) -- 97.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird/Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Crustle: 145-172 (42.1 - 50%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Shuckle disputes that claim!

252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shuckle: 79-95 (32.3 - 38.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shuckle: 91-108 (37.2 - 44.2%) -- 52% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Unfortunately, Shuckle is Shuckle and still loses, as the only thing it can do in return is Toxic - it won't live long enough for Infestation to matter.

Also note that in practically all these cases, if Talonflame Swords Dances, it's GG.

EDIT: Crustle actually looks to be the best Bug check to Talonflame, may have to investigate for my Bug team. Currently my answer is pray I can keep Sturdy active on Forretress

252+ Atk Forretress Explosion vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 308-363 (103.3 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 

DoW

formally Death on Wings
Firstly, the topic has also been discussed in the monotype facebook page here, in case you want to have a look through.

I personally feel that a Gale Wings Suspect Test is needed, as it is extremely hard to counter (as discussed above) by three types that already find its types hard to counter. Stealth rocks can to some extent counter it when added to the recoil damage, however both flying and fire teams generally carry rapid spin, defog, or at least a fast taunt lead because stealth rock does so much damage to the types, meaning they generally are able to deal with this threat fairly easily.

Another reason I have seen for people saying it isn't broken is that while it may require a sacrifice to KO, this is the same with setup sweepers if you let them set up; it will still only KO one pokemon before you take it out. However, the problem with this is that talon doesn't need to set up: with choice band it can brave bird at will and wreck whatever stands in front of it, without setting up so there's not even a chance to come in while it sets up, then if it wants it can switch out to a wall e.g. skarmory, and laugh at the response which is meant to KO it.

It should not be forgotten that monotype is different to OU, and nowhere is this more evident than when it comes to countering a strategy. This is because often in OU the counter will be one of a number of pokemon that generally share a type, however this is unavailable in monotype so other counters must be found, and are often innovative. However, two talonflame counters that would commonly be considered in OU might be pursuit trapping and extreme speed, neither of which is possible in the three teams troubled by it except for extreme speed lucario, which faces this problem:
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 286-337 (101.7 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(Ok it's banded, but it's not even talon's super effective choice of move).
In return:
252 Atk Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 103-122 (34.5 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

So, talon needs a nerf. It doesn't need to be banned though, losing gale wings would be enough of a nerf. For example, scarf terrakion could switch in on a brave bird, live it, then threaten stone edge back (which we mustn't forget is super effective against the rest of the team as well, quite possibly 2HKOing the majority of the opposing team), and speed boost scolipede could become quite a threat if switching in on talon and carrying rock slide.. It would also allow priority to get past talon without needing to use extremespeed, for example sucker punch toxicroak. It would still be a tough pokemon for these types to counter, sure, but they're up against a type disadvantage, it's unlucky but not broken. We should also remember that talonflame is one of flying's counters to ice type, and banning a pokemon can cause more damage to a metagame than previously expected.

tl;dr: Talon needs a nerf because the counters to it wouldn't work, be they better priority, pursuit trapping or simply a pokemon tough enough to take two hits and KO back. Gale wings taken off it would be enough of a nerf because it would be counterable by plenty of things to the extent teams wouldn't have to be built solely around countering it.


+Death on Wings (monotype room)/Patrick Gray (facebook)
 

Arcticblast

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I don't really play Monotype but I'd just like to say that banning Gale Wings is stupid when Talonflame is the only thing that gets it. There's no need to try to strip it of its viability to keep it around - that's basically just favoritism (even more so than the arguments for a complex ban on Speed Boost Blaziken).
 
To be honest, I've seen someone in our chat run Fletchinder to some success. I advocate that Gale Wings hurts the Monotype Metagame, but maybe only on Talonflame. So maybe a ban on just GW Talonflame is possible? Or would the fact that Fletchinder doesn't get enough use/is too gimmicky prevent a complex ban such as this from taking place?
 
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Pyritie

TAMAGO
is an Artist
To be honest, I've seen someone in our chat run Fletchinder to some success. I advocate that Gale Wings hurts the Monotype Metagame, but maybe only on Talonflame. So maybe a ban on just GW Talonflame is possible? Or would the fact that Fletchinder doesn't get enough use/is too gimmicky prevent a complex ban such as this from taking place?
Fletchinder doesn't get brave bird or flare blitz so it's nowhere near as much of a problem.

I don't really play Monotype but I'd just like to say that banning Gale Wings is stupid when Talonflame is the only thing that gets it. There's no need to try to strip it of its viability to keep it around - that's basically just favoritism (even more so than the arguments for a complex ban on Speed Boost Blaziken).
The thing is, like Articuno I said, outside of brave bird spam it still has other useful tools that fire or flying teams might want. Fire gets the fighting coverage (though it already has the grass and bug coverage), another potential sweeper with SD + roost, since talonflame is already fast enough even without gale wings, and also a supporter with a very fast WoW and tailwind.
Flying teams get the important ice coverage and a WoWer and otherwise similar stuff to what fire gets.

Without talonflame both teams are basically forced to run a mega charizard if they want something similar.

Monotype is a different metagame than OU and should be treated as such. Blaze blaziken is outclassed by infernape anyway, but there isn't really another pokemon that could replace talonflame.
 
Pyritie said:
Fletchinder doesn't get brave bird or flare blitz so it's nowhere near as much of a problem.
Right, that's what I meant by gimmicky. The particular set I've seen runs Acrobatics/Roost/SD/Flame Charge. My question, though, was whether the idea of Fletchinder being used would influence whether we were suspecting for a blanket ban on Gale Wings or just GW on Talonflame. It (Fletchinder) was 484th most used in OU Monotype in February (0.00138% usage, or a total of around 166 battles of the 120375 OU Monotype ladder matches played in February), so it was rarely used, but would it rise in usage with the banning of Talonflame just because people would want Gale Wings, and therefore we should only suspect GW+Talon? Or would Flying and Fire monos find new strategies, and therefore create a moot point as to whether we suspected Gale Wings in general or just GW+Talon?

I'm a regular in the monotype room on Showdown, and from discussion, it seems like most people don't care about Fletchinder, and would rather change up their team in different ways to combat this ban. However, there are a few people that would be interested in using Fletchinder, and already do, in fact. I guess that was just my reasoning for bringing this topic up.

Also, Pyritie has a point with blanket banning Talonflame. Even without GW, it does have enough speed to keep some viability, as either a support 'mon or a much more check-able set-up sweeper. A blanket ban on Talonflame just removes it from the metagame completely, which removes the positives it can still bring to a team, even if its usage dwindles a bit.
 
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