Ladder Monotype [Read post #393 for Tiering Updates]

[DoW]

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 330-393 (90.6 - 107.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 330-393 (90.6 - 107.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 330-393 (90.6 - 107.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
(Note Spikes are more common in MonoGhost than SR & even in MonoSteel they are an easy fit)

As you can see Metagross can't switch in. Meanwhile

252+ Atk Metagross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 174-206 (53.7 - 63.5%)

As you can see Aegis can just tank the Earthquake & set up yet another Swords Dance, no Life Orb needed

+4 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 384-452 (105.4 - 124.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

There's a simple solution for countering LO Aegis: Put some Def EVs on Metagross (specifically, 96 so that it always survives +2 Aegislash Shadow Sneak). At this stage it once again becomes a counter. And you can always put more Def EVs in if you don't want to rely on a defog user.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 96 Def Metagross: 307-361 (84.3 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Next. Shadow Sneak has priority. Therefore, if it's gonna attack you, which it probably will at +2 with LO, it'll be in blade forme when you hit it. You've taken some EVs out of Attack to use in Defense, so that leaves you with 160:
160+ Atk Metagross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 400-472 (123.4 - 145.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This means Metagross is a perfectly good Aegislash counter so long as you don't play stupidly and let it set up before switchin Metagross in. Hint: If you see Aegislash, switch Metagross in straight away. You win one-on-one, and suddenly their main threat is down. Hint number 2: If you let it set up to +4, the problem isn't the pokemon, it's the players. In any case, Leftovers Aegislash is more common so you're unlikely to need the extra Def EVs. If you don't believe me, it looks like I'll be playing two people to prove them wrong.

So Aegislash is difficult for psychic, sure, but there's always going to be an element of that in monotype. Every type has something they don't like. It doesn't mean they're automatically defeated by the pokemon though, and Aegislash is far less of a problem than Talonflame for the reasons I've mentioned in the past.

 

[Nochman.EXE]

Since when the hell did this discussion become about Aegislash... Focus on what's the problem here. Aegislash actually has Counters and Checks on Mono Psychic, so I don't understand why the discussion is focusing on an example that someone made. That being said Aegiskash is completely irrelevant.

 

[Aasgier]

The arguments here are getting ridiculous... Stuff like this isn't even a metagame balancing problem, it's a ban of anything that threatens types too much for those who favor those types... Type advantages are always a thing.

I do not play the metagame enough to say if Talonflame needs to be banned, I just pointed a few things out. If I would make a new monotype team, I would start abusing Talonflame, however, since I do not really have a favorite type.

It is just that I considered the idea of a Gale Wings ban a bit awkward when Talonflame easily outspeeds most Grass-, Bug- and Fighting-types anyway, even with the existance of things that can counter with a Choice Scarf.
These counters exist, but they are forced into Rock Slide or other Rock-moves, which can be taken advantage of.

There are also some defensive counters, but they can be set up bait (except Tangela/Tangrowth as they have Sleep Powder).
However, should every Fighting-team pack obalion and Terrakion, every Bug-team pack Armaldo and Crustle, and every Grass-team Tangela/Tangrowth and Cradily (all physically defensive variants with a rock-move). Outside of the Grass-mons, none have reliable recovery, making them rather prone to being whittled down to the point Talonflame can take them on (not to mention that Talonflame has U-Turn).

 

[Nochman.EXE]

I do not play the metagame enough to say if Talonflame needs to be banned, I just pointed a few things out. If I would make a new monotype team, I would start abusing Talonflame, however, since I do not really have a favorite type.

As a person who actively plays the Metagame, Talonflame's Priority in STAB Brave Bird gives it the power it needs to KO practically any Pokemon on Grass, Fighting, and Bug, whereas the fact that it is Priority means that it can bypass Revenge Killing in both Speed and other forms of Priority.This leads me personally as a player to support any form of a Ban.

It is just that I considered the idea of a Gale Wings ban a bit awkward when Talonflame easily outspeeds most Grass-, Bug- and Fighting-types anyway, even with the existance of things that can counter with a Choice Scarf.

Some are identifying the Ability itself as the problem and major cause of Talonflame's imbalance to the Mono Meta, rather than it itself; without it it could still provide Flying and Fire with Type Matchups and/or Support, respectively, accomplishing the goal of a diverse Metagame. And as you have acknowledged, although it is out of the Speed Range of most Grass and Bug Type while sporting threatening STABs, it is Revengeable, thus giving these Types solid Counters. Being Counter and Checkable along with its before mentioned drawbacks means that it isn't single-handedly Threatening entire Teams, minimizing the centralization it has over Teambuilding.

This means that, instead of relying heavily on Cradily, Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn Switch Ins, and the hope that TFlame isn't holding a CB (lol), I can now minimize those Roles to just Cradily and Choice Scarf Shaymin with HP Rock.

This means that Talonflame is no different than, say, Greninja, who can outpace most Ground Type, and slam it with any of its STABs. It's also Revengeable- and in some arguements, over-centralizing as well, since some might run Gastrodon to defend against Sets lacking Grass Knot. But since you can actually fight back, it isn't being brought up as am issue.

These counters exist, but they are forced into Rock Slide or other Rock-moves, which can be taken advantage of.

In this case, Grass actually wants to run Rock Types Moves anyways- it Covers its Weaknesses pretty widely and provides it with the best possible Coverage along with its STAB.

Bit I see your viewpoint; being forced to run certain Moves is to a lesser extent warping the Metagame. However the degree at which it does it is to an acceptable amount imo; that is the heart and soul of Monotype.

As far as that, I think that we agree at the fact that Talonflame is still a Threat, with or without Gale Wings. However, I think it will be manageable- and so I support any form of a Ban.

 

[ryan]

Thanks for all the feedback everyone.

Let me start this post by addressing the people who would rather see Gale Wings banned than Talonflame. The problem with this strategy is that, as an ability, Gale Wings isn't completely broken in Monotype. Earlier in the thread, somebody paralleled this with the banning of Gengarite, noting that despite Shadow Tag being what made Mega Gengar so terribly broken, it was still Gengarite that was banned. This is because the OU council did not believe that Shadow Tag as a whole was broken. The same logic can be applied here: yes, Flame Body Talonflame would still be usable in Monotype, but it's Talonflame that is broken and not Gale Wings. In the end, Talonflame is potentially broken in Monotype because of Gale Wings, but Gale Wings isn't potentially broken because there are other viable users of the ability that aren't anywhere near broken. If people want to use Gale Wings Fletchinder on Mono-Fire to strengthen their matchup against Mono-Fighting, they should be able to do that.

Moving on, one of the only legitimate arguments I've seen for keeping Talonflame around is really off-kilter but also a really valid point. Talonflame ultimately kills itself really quickly from Brave Bird and Flare Blitz recoil. In fact, when a 0 HP Talonflame uses Flare Blitz against a 252 HP Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn, it takes roughly 68% recoil. If it uses Brave Bird, it doesn't KO the Ferrothorn, which means it's taking an extra round of Rocky Helmet + Iron Barbs damage, and the Ferrothorn user is able to do something back to it for a turn. This is an unorthodox tool to handle Talonflame on Mono-Grass that honestly works fine in practice. I've laddered quite a bit with Mono-Flying over the past couple of weeks, and I'd be lying if I said that Talonflame single-handedly made the Mono-Grass, -Fighting, and -Bug matchups easy wins. It obviously helped, but having four other Flying-types certainly didn't hurt either (specifying four because I had Mega Charizard X).

This is the right way to think when you're considering handling Talonflame on a team that has a type disadvantage against it. You really cannot expect to counter or even check it defensively. You have to think outside of the box and strategize differently. As a community, we have to decide is this something that we want in the metagame? Do we want a Pokemon that forces you to deal with it in these very different methods, or do we feel that being forced to deal with Talonflame in these ways is bad for the metagame? I'm personally still not convinced either way, and I'd like to hear more about this specifically. I don't need to see damage calcs where Rock-type moves OHKO Talonflame because I know that. I need to see actual battling experience.

 

[DoW]

Thanks for all the feedback everyone.

Let me start this post by addressing the people who would rather see Gale Wings banned than Talonflame. The problem with this strategy is that, as an ability, Gale Wings isn't completely broken in Monotype. Earlier in the thread, somebody paralleled this with the banning of Gengarite, noting that despite Shadow Tag being what made Mega Gengar so terribly broken, it was still Gengarite that was banned. This is because the OU council did not believe that Shadow Tag as a whole was broken. The same logic can be applied here: yes, Flame Body Talonflame would still be usable in Monotype, but it's Talonflame that is broken and not Gale Wings. In the end, Talonflame is potentially broken in Monotype because of Gale Wings, but Gale Wings isn't potentially broken because there are other viable users of the ability that aren't anywhere near broken. If people want to use Gale Wings Fletchinder on Mono-Fire to strengthen their matchup against Mono-Fighting, they should be able to do that.

Moving on, one of the only legitimate arguments I've seen for keeping Talonflame around is really off-kilter but also a really valid point. Talonflame ultimately kills itself really quickly from Brave Bird and Flare Blitz recoil. In fact, when a 0 HP Talonflame uses Flare Blitz against a 252 HP Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn, it takes roughly 68% recoil. If it uses Brave Bird, it doesn't KO the Ferrothorn, which means it's taking an extra round of Rocky Helmet + Iron Barbs damage, and the Ferrothorn user is able to do something back to it for a turn. This is an unorthodox tool to handle Talonflame on Mono-Grass that honestly works fine in practice. I've laddered quite a bit with Mono-Flying over the past couple of weeks, and I'd be lying if I said that Talonflame single-handedly made the Mono-Grass, -Fighting, and -Bug matchups easy wins. It obviously helped, but having four other Flying-types certainly didn't hurt either (specifying four because I had Mega Charizard X).

This is the right way to think when you're considering handling Talonflame on a team that has a type disadvantage against it. You really cannot expect to counter or even check it defensively. You have to think outside of the box and strategize differently. As a community, we have to decide is this something that we want in the metagame? Do we want a Pokemon that forces you to deal with it in these very different methods, or do we feel that being forced to deal with Talonflame in these ways is bad for the metagame? I'm personally still not convinced either way, and I'd like to hear more about this specifically. I don't need to see damage calcs where Rock-type moves OHKO Talonflame because I know that. I need to see actual battling experience.

If Gale Wings isn't the problem, but Talonflame would still be usable without Gale Wings, is a complex ban a possibility? I hadn't brought it up before because it seemed to be overcomplicating the problem, as banning Gale Wings would effectively do the same as banning Gale Wings only on Talonflame.

Also, I would love to seem more of these interesting kinds of counters, I'll certainly be keeping a look out for them and trying to think of some myself. However, if every team suddenly carried rocky helmet Ferrothorn then I think Overheat LO Talonflame might become a thing. I'd love to see plenty of these counters and not need a ban; however I have yet to be convinced that a reliable counter has been found.

Edit: Things I've looked at for beating Talon:
1) Quick Guard and Outpredicting: Fails because Quick Guard can fail if used in succession.
2) Intimidate and Pursuit Trap with Hitmontop: Generally fails because Hitmontop is too weak to 2HKO, and can be outpredicted anyway.
3) Sash + Endeavor because its main moves have recoil: I guess this could work but it's still sacrificing a pokemon and it doesn't work against leftovers or with entry hazards down.
4) Rocky Helmet Rest Conkeldurr so the recoil kills it: At this stage you might as well have a rock move on Conkeldurr. I have no idea what I was thinking with this one.
5) Outspeeding with priority: Yeah, nothing's fast enough or has strong enough priority. Even Luke's Espeed only does max 67% when banded. Even adding this to the recoil Talon lives with a minimum of 4HP. Perfect HP for an Espeed user, oh wait...

 

[Nochman.EXE]

I have never considered this as an answer to Talonflame, and, after some testing, I've found that it is a great stop to the Choice Band Set, while baiting the other Sets into kamikazes was actually a thing. But only when I had Stealth Rocks up.

Talonflame itself cannot be directly blamed for the lack of or the presence of Stealth Rocks however, so I cannot honestly count it as relevant to this discussion unless Ferrothron itself is carrying the Move, at which case Talonflame obviously wins (you shouldn't be using it as a SR Setter on Grass anyways, Cradily is a lot better).

That being said, I'll discuss the Talonflame V.S. Ferrothorn scenario with and without Stealth Rocks, as this is a really interesting discussion.

Now Grass does, assuming that the Talonflame and Ferrothorn have not taken prior damage, have an answer to Talonflame in the form of an unorthodox, sacrifice Wall, as:

With the Iron Barbs and Rocky Helmet taken into account, any Talonflame that makes contact with your Ferrothron will be taking, at least, 30% of it's health upon each contact.

(Iron Barbs = 17[16.7] + Rocky Helmet = 13[12.5]).

Next, let's assume that the Talonflame would be, as many players would, be spamming Brave Bird to stay outside of Revenge range. It does:

252 Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 85-102 (24.1 - 28.9%) -- 98.9% chance to 4HKO

And, taken the .33% Recoil from the 28.9% at best, it takes 10% (9.5) of its health, resulting in a total of 40%, at worst.

Now, Turn two on Talonflame V.S. Ferrothorn, the Talonflame can do two things depending on it's Set: elimnate Ferrothorn via Flare Blitz, in which it does


252 Atk Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 340-408 (96.5 - 115.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

and takes an additional 30% on top of the 40% it received last Turn, And another 23% from the Flare Blitz. In total, the Talonflame would be taking Iron Barbs+Rocky Helmet: 30% + 10% from Brave Bird Recoil + 30% from Iron Barbs+Rocky Helmet + 23% from the Flare Blitz Recoil, totaling 93% of it's health gone from a Talonflame hitting a Ferrothorn with Brave Bird the first Turn, and KO'ing it the next with Flare Blitz. Here are some replays depicting TFlame V.S. Ferrothorn with and without SR’s to demonstrate this Scenario:

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Standard Talonflame with Sitrus Berry V.S. Martyr Ferrothorn (No Stealth Rocks)

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-117207632

Talonflame wins without Stealth Rocks, and can still damage or KO something else with Brave Bird/Flare Blitz.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Standard Talonflame with Sitrus Berry V.S. Martyr Ferrothorn (Stealth Rocks)

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-117211118

Ferrothorn wins at the sacrifice of it’s own health.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


This means that if and only if Stealth Rocks are up, which is totally possible, that Ferrothorn that has managed to land a Leech can take down Talonflame at the sacrifice of its own life.

However, if they are not, Talonflame still wins, and gets to damage or KO one another of your Pokemon in return. Not to mention that the Talonflame user can Roost if they predict a Protect, or on another Poke when the Ferrothorn is down.

But the fact that this thing, which Im going to go ahead and take the liberty of calling Martyr Ferrothorn, can actually take down a TFlame shifts me, if not only a little bit, to the Anti-Ban side (I still support a Ban, however).

However, the presence of one creative Set is not enough to move me completely, as the fact still stands that this thing can essentially Sweep and entire Team without it or Cradily or the Tangrowth Line, while blazing past Revenge Killing in the process.

Pretty interesting, though, add that to you list of Checks along with Cradily folks. Just keep it healthy.

 

[Galladium]

I have never considered this as an answer to Talonflame, and, after some testing, I've found that it is a great stop to the Choice Band Set, while baiting the other Sets into kamikazes was actually a thing. But only when I had Stealth Rocks up.

Talonflame itself cannot be directly blamed for the lack of or the presence of Stealth Rocks however, so I cannot honestly count it as relevant to this discussion unless Ferrothron itself is carrying the Move, at which case Talonflame obviously wins (you shouldn't be using it as a SR Setter on Grass anyways, Cradily is a lot better).

That being said, I'll discuss the Talonflame V.S. Ferrothorn scenario with and without Stealth Rocks, as this is a really interesting discussion.

Now Grass does, assuming that the Talonflame and Ferrothorn have not taken prior damage, have an answer to Talonflame in the form of an unorthodox, sacrifice Wall, as:

With the Iron Barbs and Rocky Helmet taken into account, any Talonflame that makes contact with your Ferrothron will be taking, at least, 30% of it's health upon each contact.

(Iron Barbs = 17[16.7] + Rocky Helmet = 13[12.5]).

Next, let's assume that the Talonflame would be, as many players would, be spamming Brave Bird to stay outside of Revenge range. It does:

252 Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 85-102 (24.1 - 28.9%) -- 98.9% chance to 4HKO

And, taken the .33% Recoil from the 28.9% at best, it takes 10% (9.5) of its health, resulting in a total of 40%, at worst.

Now, Turn two on Talonflame V.S. Ferrothorn, the Talonflame can do two things depending on it's Set: elimnate Ferrothorn via Flare Blitz, in which it does


252 Atk Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 340-408 (96.5 - 115.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

and takes an additional 30% on top of the 40% it received last Turn, And another 23% from the Flare Blitz. In total, the Talonflame would be taking Iron Barbs+Rocky Helmet: 30% + 10% from Brave Bird Recoil + 30% from Iron Barbs+Rocky Helmet + 23% from the Flare Blitz Recoil, totaling 93% of it's health gone from a Talonflame hitting a Ferrothorn with Brave Bird the first Turn, and KO'ing it the next with Flare Blitz. Here are some replays depicting TFlame V.S. Ferrothorn with and without SR’s to demonstrate this Scenario:

Why would Talonflame use Brave Bird on the first turn when it could use Flare Blitz for super effective damage instead? Also, your arguments assume that Talonflame never carries a Choice Band.

 

[Gerard]

Ferrothorn switches in a predicted BB. With CB Talonflame does 43% max at ferro, thus fails to 2HKO has to endure either 3 rounds of Rocky Barbs (90% + recoil) or switch out as Ferro places some hazzards / leech seed

 

[Perseu]

I think the big problem here is not the power or speed, its because revenging talonflame in nearly impossible to these teams.
I also dont see the problem in banning gale wings talonflame. Talon is not overpower, gale is not, talon + gale is, so whats the problem? Monotype is NOT a official meta, and here we should look for the fun and nice variability, because we all know the OU council does not care to fun or versatility (anyone who remembers the big wars about politoed and stealth rocks know what im talking about), just "it can be countered, so ok, even if we use just 10 mons in the meta".

 

[DoW]

Ferrothorn switches in a predicted BB. With CB Talonflame does 43% max at ferro, thus fails to 2HKO has to endure either 3 rounds of Rocky Barbs (90% + recoil) or switch out as Ferro places some hazzards / leech seed

CB Talon is another matter. On the one hand, if it goes for Brave Bird spam it can be countered by Ferrothorn, but on the other hand a Ferrothorn switch could easily be predicted, in which case Flare Blitz will OHKO and Ferrothorn doesn't even check it.
I also think that Swords Dance sets should be taken into consideration as they can beat Ferrothorn if used well as well.

I also dont see the problem in banning gale wings talonflame. Talon is not overpower, gale is not, talon + gale is, so whats the problem? Monotype is NOT a official meta, and here we should look for the fun and nice variability, because we all know the OU council does not care to fun or versatility (anyone who remembers the big wars about politoed and stealth rocks know what im talking about), just "it can be countered, so ok, even if we use just 10 mons in the meta".

I mentioned before that the important things in terms of what is banned include how competitive it makes the metagame, how much variety it leads to, and whether it becomes too complicated in terms of what is banned. The reason Politoed and Stealth Rock weren't banned was because they can be countered and banning things because everyone uses them isn't a good enough reason. The 5th gen games could still be fun with Politoed around, the OU council didn't do things to try to stop the metagame being fun. However, Swift Swim in conjunction with Drizzle was broken, so it got banned.
The problem here is different; the reason a Talonflame Gale Wings complex ban might not be considered is that it makes things more complicated, although having it would mean more variety. The metagame can still be fun whether a Talonflame ban or a complex ban are used, it's simply between those two ideas.

 

[Nochman.EXE]

Why would Talonflame use Brave Bird on the first turn when it could use Flare Blitz for super effective damage instead?

Next, let's assume that the Talonflame would be, as many players would, be spamming Brave Bird to stay outside of Revenge range.

Also, your arguments assume that Talonflame never carries a Choice Band.

Ferrothorn switches in a predicted BB. With CB Talonflame does 43% max at ferro, thus fails to 2HKO has to endure either 3 rounds of Rocky Barbs (90% + recoil) or switch out as Ferro places some hazzards / leech seed

 

[Nochman.EXE]

Thanks for all the feedback everyone.

You really cannot expect to counter or even check it defensively. You have to think outside of the box and strategize differently. As a community, we have to decide is this something that we want in the metagame? Do we want a Pokemon that forces you to deal with it in these very different methods, or do we feel that being forced to deal with Talonflame in these ways is bad for the metagame?

Being forced to think outside the box and using unorthodox Sets is by no means unhealthy to the Metagame. If anything, it matures it, as players could introduce new Sets and strategies that would expand the amount you can choose from, opening the doors for a more diverse Meta.

However, the argument still stands that Talonflame has an unacceptable dominance over the Meta as a whole, not just one Type with a new, if not shaky, Check. The problem still exist with two other Types, Fighting and Bug. So the argument still stands that Talonflame deserves a Ban on the basis that it can, by itself, run through one of the aforementioned Types' Defensive and/or Offensive Core, putting the opposing Team in a massive disadvantage by itself each time it touches the Field. And with Revenge Killing it not as an option, I still support a Ban.

Martyr Ferrothorn was an interesting aspect of how Talonflame can be Checked. But seriously, does the addition of one Check on one Mono enough of an argument as to why it should stay? (Which, btw, relies heavily on the assumption that Talonflame is spamming Brave Bird, which it could easily use Flare Bltiz as well against a Grass Team).

In my opinion, it's not. No evidence outside of the Resistance Berries show me that Talonflame can be Revenged, and even that is shaky as well.

 

[Perseu]

CB Talon is another matter. On the one hand, if it goes for Brave Bird spam it can be countered by Ferrothorn, but on the other hand a Ferrothorn switch could easily be predicted, in which case Flare Blitz will OHKO and Ferrothorn doesn't even check it.
I also think that Swords Dance sets should be taken into consideration as they can beat Ferrothorn if used well as well.
I mentioned before that the important things in terms of what is banned include how competitive it makes the metagame, how much variety it leads to, and whether it becomes too complicated in terms of what is banned. The reason Politoed and Stealth Rock weren't banned was because they can be countered and banning things because everyone uses them isn't a good enough reason. The 5th gen games could still be fun with Politoed around, the OU council didn't do things to try to stop the metagame being fun. However, Swift Swim in conjunction with Drizzle was broken, so it got banned.
The problem here is different; the reason a Talonflame Gale Wings complex ban might not be considered is that it makes things more complicated, although having it would mean more variety. The metagame can still be fun whether a Talonflame ban or a complex ban are used, it's simply between those two ideas.

Yes, thats exactly what i meant, poli and SR were not that broken, but they shapped the meta incredibly, people who played the "clear skies" and "no SR" know what im talking, but this is no place for this discussion, it was just an example of the OU council decisions.
My point is that monotypes is a meta with a huge difference, and some specific points need to be observed, like the talonflame one. He is not a threat to water or rock teams, but hey, like someone else said "this is not a place where you can simply put Ttar or rotom in your team", because gale wings talonflame is uber against SPECIFIC types of teams, and it doesnt mean its attacks cannot be tanked or anything, but revenging talonflame is a nearly impossible job to them, agravated because of how many defoggers we have in flying teams.
Ferrothorn? Just spam flare blitz against the grass teams, as nothing really viable in grass can revenge it; you kill the incoming ferrothorn and have a 20 or 30% health talonflame ready to use brave bird (assuming ferro uses rocky helmet)


Its like: this mon handles 300 OU mons by itself, but he have 2 checks and 2 counters so whatever.

 

[Crazy Horse]

I would like to state my reasons I think talonflame should not be nerfed or banned. However I will also being stating reason it should be banned as it is gray. First I'm going to start off with more opinionated stuff. Although we would like to think Monotype is the place where we can always use any type to the same effectiveness as the other types unfortunately that's not true. This is a MetaGame and there will always be Superior and Inferior. Also the reason I think this thread is so one sided is because Mainly the people who want it banned will come here and a lot of people are very ignorant of the progress of this ban list. T-flame has been blamed for the fall of fighting,bug, and grass on the ladder. I don't believe this to be accurate.

Fighting was very common Gen V mono because it contained top tier pokes who dominated the OU meta. However, Terrakion has loss the ability to CC spam everything with introduction of fairies, and the prominence of aegislash. Keldeo who was even suspected for being broken has fallen because of the rain nerf and the introduction to Mega Venusaur. Breloom loss the ability to spore everything in sight with the new grass immunity to spore and Overcoat. These 3 pokes who were Top Tier Last Gen have fallen out of grace and have multiple ways of dealing with each that can be found on a variety of monotypes.

As for grass, it was always considered one of the worst monotypes because of how awful its match-ups are. The introduction of Spore immunity,Sticky webs and mega venusaur were some of the biggest boons for grass. Mega Venusaur being a premium poke of the OU meta and arguably mono-grass's Best Buff still struggles in mono. (vs psychic[latios, latias, any poke w/ psyshock], vs Fire[Wallbreakers in sun ruin grass and Chari-Y brings the pain], vs Water[Extrasensory Gren, Starmie, or even SS Mantine], vs Rock[While this is where it can shine mostly mega aerodactyl can threaten it out], vs Normal[Staraptor,Diggersby,Braviary, vs Ice[Mamo,Kyurem-b,Psychic Froslass, Hit it very hard], vs Ground[Garchomp,Lando-i, LO nidoking,Mamoswine Hit it hella hard]. I could go on and on but while being an Ace in OU it seems that every type has a bare minimum of killing it. Grass has always been unpopular and its not as if Talonflame has bomb'd its use. There are still about the same or I dare say more compared to last gen. Grass's Big Ace mega Venusaur can't carry the team though is what I was trying to Prove and maybe blaming talonflame for all of its problems isn't the right direction.

Finally Bug. Bug has gotten some hella buffs having defog as an option spin away rocks, one of the best pokes in the OU meta (mega pinsir), sticky webs, a very prominent wall breaker(megacross), and i may be missing something. Unlike the previous two I mentioned honestly talonflame is the main fault here. Bug has received an overwhelming amount of buffs and on paper seems like it would devastate most monotypes. I do think however Talon Balances bug monotype out. I've noticed a shortage in bug monotype teams with volcarona because of the ever so infamous T-Flame. T-Flame also forces bug monotype to run a Bug/Rock also limiting what it can do with all of these buffs. I can understand if People disagree with my reasoning here.

Now as I understand the main reason People are arguing a ban is because of fighting,bug,grass. In most cases they have ignored the needs of talonflame on flying and fire. although the matchups in these cases are bias anyway. People complain that talonflame over centralize grass but vs fire grass get destroyed, mega venusaur fails at taking Sun Boosted powerful attacks and can only wall so long. Scarf Virizion sheds some light on grass for this match up and cradily with rock slide STAB. But I think its safe to say that Two players of the same skill fire vs grass. Fire will win 9:1 (Crits,F-blast misses, etc.). Onto grass vs flying. As Long as the Flying team packs a flying STAB or Psychic attack. This will be one sided. Add Chari-x to the equation and this matchup becomes even more one sided. I don't know what gives people the impression that with talonflame grass can win these matchups more times than not. If you get rid of T-Flame You will just see more STAB physical attackers scarfed on flying (i.e. Staraptor). As for Bug vs Fire. Fire is able to spam its STAB to the fullest but w/out talonflame its put on the defensive and easily overwhelmed by bugs superior balance, options and boons. In this matchup talonflame gives fire a better chance at winning. In a bug vs flying matchup Flying is more likely to win than not. It has an answer to every single thing grass can pullout while having plenty of ways to kill hazards setter and clear hazards. Bug vs Flying will always side to Flying due to its superior balance and options similar to OU Teams.

As I mentioned before I think this thread will be a bit biased towards ban because of the players it will attract. I do not think this is a very accurate way of determining if Such and such should get banned as These are mainly only auths of the monotype room stating claims. This isn't a accurate portrayal of the monotype community. Now to get on to the more factual part of my post.
People Have suggested that talonflame has use w/out Gale Wings and I strongly disagree with this. My first point will be Mono-Fire's reliance on TalonFlame's Gale wing ability. Mono-Fire has always needed a very strong offensive presence in order to stay viable and competitive in the monotype tier but a problem is it has limited speed options. Scarfed Pokes are usually 100 Base Speed or lower and scarf delphox is unable to outspeed scarf terrakion nor significantly threaten things it would need to kill that our scarfed. This downfall is significant and becomes very apparent in a Dragon vs Fire matchup. All of Mono-Fire's possible scarfs can be outsped and mono-fire's priority isnt the strongest. Arcanine's E-Speed isnt very strong, Entei has an exceptionally powerful E-Speed when banded and mach punch infernape. With a reliance on 100 Base Speed Scarfed pokes this isn't enough and puts fire on the losing side for most match-ups. However, TalonFlame is Mono-Fire's Strongest Priority attack and something that makes it competitive and viable. vs Water talonflame can take out many of the Swift Swim abusers bar Kabutops, Kill Greninja, and give it a fighting chance. vs Dragon TalonFlame hits the scarfed dragons like a truck, and at +2 Can rip a dragon team apart. vs Fighting Scarf Keldeo + Terrak would usually spell doom for fire with both being able to Tear Mono-Fire apart and outspeed all of its scarfed options but now with talonflame its put back on the offensive and able to R-Kill Keldeo and possible get +2 on switch and checking terrakion. vs Bug, Pokes like pinsir,armaldo,shuckle,crustle would with quite ease bring a fire team to its knees and with with sticky web makes scarf fire pokes handicapped. This matchup puts mono-fire on the defensive where its constantly pressured to clear hazards and deal with mega pinsir. With torkoal having no reliable recovery option the SR toll can end up in a pinsir sweep quickly. But yet again talonflame offers fire an offensive presence in this match dealing with all four of the pokes above and turning the defensive pressure towards bug. vs Flying, Fire is awfully outclased with mono-flying having something for every threat on fire. +2 Gyarados destroys a whole fire mono and Charizard-X gets +2 with ease being able to sweep mono-fire in a blink of an eye with its superior walls,Scarf options/offensive presence, and hazard management. The most fire can do is pressure a defog from mono-flying. Torkoal is easy setup fodder for mega gyara being able to sub surprise on a yawn and if you switch you risk it getting +2 or killing Scarf Nape/ rotom/ darmanitan. However with TalonFlame mono-Fire Can revenge kill Chari-x and Mega Gyara, also completely smashing every flying wall bar A defensive Mega-Aero. In all of these matchups The ability Gale Wings is absolutely Essential as talonflame has very little use without it, its just a swellow wtih flare blitz otherwise and Balances Fire, making it a formidable threat this gen. It makes Mono-Fire able to hold its trademark offensive presence.
Now on to Mono-Flying. It has a very scarce source of priority with E-speed dragonite and staraptor being the most viable options. Instead of running a scarf poke on mono-flying I can run talonflame which gives it tremendous offensive pressure and also stopping chari-x. vs Dragon Mono-Flying doesnt have scarfed options that typically outspeed scarfed dragons(latios) in which t-flame give dragon a run for its money. vs Water is where talonflame on flying mono really becomes a staple. Besides making the team more balanced, Giving it offensive pressure, Revenge Killing outside of scarfs, and lure. Talonflame serves as an offensive answer to Swift Swim which rips apart flying teams. Now I'm not gonna sit here and say that Flying absolutely needs it but I'm very comfortable saying it gives flying mono more flexibility, best priority option, and better balance in general.
In summary, This thread will be a bit bias and isn't accurate because a lot of people are ignorant and this thread will attract pro-banners more than anti-banners. Fire needs its boon talonflame to thrive in the tier. Flying needs talonflame for offensive momentum and a balanced team. ~~ Rorschach
As far as credibility goes, I've been actively playing monotype as my main tier for two years and invest a lot of time on the frost server.

 

[GodChef]

I would like to state my reasons I think talonflame should not be nerfed or banned. However I will also being stating reason it should be banned as it is gray. First I'm going to start off with more opinionated stuff. Although we would like to think Monotype is the place where we can always use any type to the same effectiveness as the other types unfortunately that's not true. This is a MetaGame and there will always be Superior and Inferior. Also the reason I think this thread is so one sided is because Mainly the people who want it banned will come here and a lot of people are very ignorant of the progress of this ban list. T-flame has been blamed for the fall of fighting,bug, and grass on the ladder. I don't believe this to be accurate.

Fighting was very common Gen V mono because it contained top tier pokes who dominated the OU meta. However, Terrakion has loss the ability to CC spam everything with introduction of fairies, and the prominence of aegislash. Keldeo who was even suspected for being broken has fallen because of the rain nerf and the introduction to Mega Venusaur. Breloom loss the ability to spore everything in sight with the new grass immunity to spore and Overcoat. These 3 pokes who were Top Tier Last Gen have fallen out of grace and have multiple ways of dealing with each that can be found on a variety of monotypes.

As for grass, it was always considered one of the worst monotypes because of how awful its match-ups are. The introduction of Spore immunity,Sticky webs and mega venusaur were some of the biggest boons for grass. Mega Venusaur being a premium poke of the OU meta and arguably mono-grass's Best Buff still struggles in mono. (vs psychic[latios, latias, any poke w/ psyshock], vs Fire[Wallbreakers in sun ruin grass and Chari-Y brings the pain], vs Water[Extrasensory Gren, Starmie, or even SS Mantine], vs Rock[While this is where it can shine mostly mega aerodactyl can threaten it out], vs Normal[Staraptor,Diggersby,Braviary, vs Ice[Mamo,Kyurem-b,Psychic Froslass, Hit it very hard], vs Ground[Garchomp,Lando-i, LO nidoking,Mamoswine Hit it hella hard]. I could go on and on but while being an Ace in OU it seems that every type has a bare minimum of killing it. Grass has always been unpopular and its not as if Talonflame has bomb'd its use. There are still about the same or I dare say more compared to last gen. Grass's Big Ace mega Venusaur can't carry the team though is what I was trying to Prove and maybe blaming talonflame for all of its problems isn't the right direction.

Finally Bug. Bug has gotten some hella buffs having defog as an option spin away rocks, one of the best pokes in the OU meta (mega pinsir), sticky webs, a very prominent wall breaker(megacross), and i may be missing something. Unlike the previous two I mentioned honestly talonflame is the main fault here. Bug has received an overwhelming amount of buffs and on paper seems like it would devastate most monotypes. I do think however Talon Balances bug monotype out. I've noticed a shortage in bug monotype teams with volcarona because of the ever so infamous T-Flame. T-Flame also forces bug monotype to run a Bug/Rock also limiting what it can do with all of these buffs. I can understand if People disagree with my reasoning here.

Now as I understand the main reason People are arguing a ban is because of fighting,bug,grass. In most cases they have ignored the needs of talonflame on flying and fire. although the matchups in these cases are bias anyway. People complain that talonflame over centralize grass but vs fire grass get destroyed, mega venusaur fails at taking Sun Boosted powerful attacks and can only wall so long. Scarf Virizion sheds some light on grass for this match up and cradily with rock slide STAB. But I think its safe to say that Two players of the same skill fire vs grass. Fire will win 9:1 (Crits,F-blast misses, etc.). Onto grass vs flying. As Long as the Flying team packs a flying STAB or Psychic attack. This will be one sided. Add Chari-x to the equation and this matchup becomes even more one sided. I don't know what gives people the impression that with talonflame grass can win these matchups more times than not. If you get rid of T-Flame You will just see more STAB physical attackers scarfed on flying (i.e. Staraptor). As for Bug vs Fire. Fire is able to spam its STAB to the fullest but w/out talonflame its put on the defensive and easily overwhelmed by bugs superior balance, options and boons. In this matchup talonflame gives fire a better chance at winning. In a bug vs flying matchup Flying is more likely to win than not. It has an answer to every single thing grass can pullout while having plenty of ways to kill hazards setter and clear hazards. Bug vs Flying will always side to Flying due to its superior balance and options similar to OU Teams.

As I mentioned before I think this thread will be a bit biased towards ban because of the players it will attract. I do not think this is a very accurate way of determining if Such and such should get banned as These are mainly only auths of the monotype room stating claims. This isn't a accurate portrayal of the monotype community. Now to get on to the more factual part of my post.
People Have suggested that talonflame has use w/out Gale Wings and I strongly disagree with this. My first point will be Mono-Fire's reliance on TalonFlame's Gale wing ability. Mono-Fire has always needed a very strong offensive presence in order to stay viable and competitive in the monotype tier but a problem is it has limited speed options. Scarfed Pokes are usually 100 Base Speed or lower and scarf delphox is unable to outspeed scarf terrakion nor significantly threaten things it would need to kill that our scarfed. This downfall is significant and becomes very apparent in a Dragon vs Fire matchup. All of Mono-Fire's possible scarfs can be outsped and mono-fire's priority isnt the strongest. Arcanine's E-Speed isnt very strong, Entei has an exceptionally powerful E-Speed when banded and mach punch infernape. With a reliance on 100 Base Speed Scarfed pokes this isn't enough and puts fire on the losing side for most match-ups. However, TalonFlame is Mono-Fire's Strongest Priority attack and something that makes it competitive and viable. vs Water talonflame can take out many of the Swift Swim abusers bar Kabutops, Kill Greninja, and give it a fighting chance. vs Dragon TalonFlame hits the scarfed dragons like a truck, and at +2 Can rip a dragon team apart. vs Fighting Scarf Keldeo + Terrak would usually spell doom for fire with both being able to Tear Mono-Fire apart and outspeed all of its scarfed options but now with talonflame its put back on the offensive and able to R-Kill Keldeo and possible get +2 on switch and checking terrakion. vs Bug, Pokes like pinsir,armaldo,shuckle,crustle would with quite ease bring a fire team to its knees and with with sticky web makes scarf fire pokes handicapped. This matchup puts mono-fire on the defensive where its constantly pressured to clear hazards and deal with mega pinsir. With torkoal having no reliable recovery option the SR toll can end up in a pinsir sweep quickly. But yet again talonflame offers fire an offensive presence in this match dealing with all four of the pokes above and turning the defensive pressure towards bug. vs Flying, Fire is awfully outclased with mono-flying having something for every threat on fire. +2 Gyarados destroys a whole fire mono and Charizard-X gets +2 with ease being able to sweep mono-fire in a blink of an eye with its superior walls,Scarf options/offensive presence, and hazard management. The most fire can do is pressure a defog from mono-flying. Torkoal is easy setup fodder for mega gyara being able to sub surprise on a yawn and if you switch you risk it getting +2 or killing Scarf Nape/ rotom/ darmanitan. However with TalonFlame mono-Fire Can revenge kill Chari-x and Mega Gyara, also completely smashing every flying wall bar A defensive Mega-Aero. In all of these matchups The ability Gale Wings is absolutely Essential as talonflame has very little use without it, its just a swellow wtih flare blitz otherwise and Balances Fire, making it a formidable threat this gen. It makes Mono-Fire able to hold its trademark offensive presence.
Now on to Mono-Flying. It has a very scarce source of priority with E-speed dragonite and staraptor being the most viable options. Instead of running a scarf poke on mono-flying I can run talonflame which gives it tremendous offensive pressure and also stopping chari-x. vs Dragon Mono-Flying doesnt have scarfed options that typically outspeed scarfed dragons(latios) in which t-flame give dragon a run for its money. vs Water is where talonflame on flying mono really becomes a staple. Besides making the team more balanced, Giving it offensive pressure, Revenge Killing outside of scarfs, and lure. Talonflame serves as an offensive answer to Swift Swim which rips apart flying teams. Now I'm not gonna sit here and say that Flying absolutely needs it but I'm very comfortable saying it gives flying mono more flexibility, best priority option, and better balance in general.
In summary, This thread will be a bit bias and isn't accurate because a lot of people are ignorant and this thread will attract pro-banners more than anti-banners. Fire needs its boon talonflame to thrive in the tier. Flying needs talonflame for offensive momentum and a balanced team. ~~ Rorschach
As far as credibility goes, I've been actively playing monotype as my main tier for two years and invest a lot of time on the frost server.

I agree that fire needs Talonflame for offensive momentum but im not convinced that Flying needs it as well. Flying as a type is so diverse and have so many pokemon that can fulfill a variety of roles, that it becomes over the top imo by giving it a strong priority attacker like Talonflame. Giving a type that many tools in its bag of tricks is a harsh imbalance imo.

Fire pokes tend towards being weak defensively, so it needs strong offense to achieve victory. Fire needs Talonflame as is, while Flying really does not.

But Swift Swim is broken, that I think needs to be addressed.

 

[Crazy Horse]

I agree that fire needs Talonflame for offensive momentum but im not convinced that Flying needs it as well. Flying as a type is so diverse and have so many pokemon that can fulfill a variety of roles, that it becomes over the top imo by giving it a strong priority attacker like Talonflame. Giving a type that many tools in its bag of tricks is a harsh imbalance imo.

Fire pokes tend towards being weak defensively, so it needs strong offense to achieve victory. Fire needs Talonflame as is, while Flying really does not.

But Swift Swim is broken, that I think needs to be addressed.

"Now I'm not gonna sit here and say that Flying absolutely needs it but I'm very comfortable saying it gives flying mono more flexibility, best priority option, and better balance in general." Yeah I know flying doesn't really need it as much which what I was hinting and I agree instead of complaining about talonflame one would think the first topic would be swift swim. I don't think anyone can be anti-Swift Swim or atleast make a good argument for it. Nerf that shit immediately ~ Rorschach

 

[Crazy Horse]

Just to justify myself more I took the time to interview the Person who is #1 on the Monotype Ladder

He has had over 600 Battles :

I made sure to be unbias with questions in a reporter like fashion, and here's how it went.

The guy who is #1 on the ladder with a tremendous amount of battle experience and time in the Monotype room didn't have a clue that this thread existed. He thought the idea of a ban list was a joke. This is just an example of my claim that some of the most experienced monotype players are ignorant of this thread and its mainly auth in the monotype room posting their opinions and is not a proper stage for a ban. He is completely opposed to it and even passing it off as a rather silly thing to suggest. While this thread seems one sided experienced players are more Anti-Ban.
I also Interviewed the guy who is #3 on the ladder about the suggestion and here's what he had to say.

As opposed to Kaiser, Jak actually knew about this thread. However, he found the things being stated ludacris. He was also Anti-Ban despite what this thread would suggest the competitive players to side with. Jak has over 500 battles and Mains Fire and it makes sense that he would know of the reliance fire mono has on talonflame to function.

 

[Antihaxxer]

I'm not sure if banning Gale Wings change something. Banning Gale wings means that Priority will be another answer, but does Grass/Bug/Fighting teams have a nice priority for killing Talonflame. Another possibility is Scarf, but I don't see many grass types with Scarf (Fighting/Bug have good Scarf Pokemon)

 

[Auburn]

to be completely honest with the whole Talonflame discussion, i use that thing and find it completely cheap to use, and with the use of Gale wings i was even also able to make a bulky talonflame with the use of priority attacks, and roost (here's a match just for you to see, Bulky Talon helping me 6-0 a mono dragon team) http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-72143790
Like reading these discussions, it's almost like you guys don't know switching out is even a thing, like so many things talonflame can switch out to to take hits, with fire, you can safely switch into a heatran, infernape or torkoal and eat up a rock attack, or electric if switching into heatran. and for flying there is so many different pokes you can safely switch your Talonflame out to, like a Landorus, Gliscor and skarm more notably for rock moves, The same pokes and dragons/flying types and electric/flying types for electric attacks, and if water you can safely switch into gyarados, or a dragon flying poke to keep your talon alive. Stealth rocks also isn't the greatest counter for a talonflame, due to the great increase in Defog on both fire and Flying teams
I'm just pointing obvious things here, but talonflame also allows us to counter those pesky speed boost pokes, such as scolipede, yanmega, and ninjas (in all honesty no one uses this anymore lol) and those fast scarfers that can easily rip through flying teams without the use of a talonflame, and also for the fire mono, which also has to deal with alot of threats; dragon monos, flying monos, swift swim water teams, which are just a few things that causes fire problems.
With all the obvious things pointed out with talonflame, as an avid Ladder-er, who also ladders with multiple typings, and putting all my bias to the side, i personally see the pros and cons with the a banning of talonflame or gale wings at best.
Pros: allows for more diversity to be added into typings that Previously struggled with Talonflame (biggest pro i can think of with gale wings gone)
- Teams wouldn't have to rely on fake out, and e-speed so much to out speed priority brave bird or acrobatics

Cons: Fire overall in general loses a physical sweeper that is capable of slowing down most pokes that can sweep them or causes problems with
- Loss of a Counter to built up pokes that would be capable of sweeping your entire team. (Swords Dance Scolipede)

those are just some pros and cons, it'll take me some time to come up with more tbh, but as a fire and flying user i've found without using a talonflame i am able to still be successful in the higher ladders.

 

[DoW]

Just to justify myself more I took the time to interview the Person who is #1 on the Monotype Ladder

He has had over 600 Battles :

I made sure to be unbias with questions in a reporter like fashion, and here's how it went.

The guy who is #1 on the ladder with a tremendous amount of battle experience and time in the Monotype room didn't have a clue that this thread existed. He thought the idea of a ban list was a joke. This is just an example of my claim that some of the most experienced monotype players are ignorant of this thread and its mainly auth in the monotype room posting their opinions and is not a proper stage for a ban. He is completely opposed to it and even passing it off as a rather silly thing to suggest. While this thread seems one sided experienced players are more Anti-Ban.
I also Interviewed the guy who is #3 on the ladder about the suggestion and here's what he had to say.

As opposed to Kaiser, Jak actually knew about this thread. However, he found the things being stated ludacris. He was also Anti-Ban despite what this thread would suggest the competitive players to side with. Jak has over 500 battles and Mains Fire and it makes sense that he would know of the reliance fire mono has on talonflame to function.

The fact that someone's high on the ladder and played a lot of games does not mean they're unbiased. It means that they're very competitive, and they want to win. In fact, they're probably biased because with a talonflame ban the meta might change to something they're less capable in. Also, they might not want the metagame to include the three types talon counters because that would mean more things they'd have to build teams to counter; instead they're playing with teams that work well rather than teams they want to use, which is the whole basis of monotype: That you use a type you like.

I'm not saying that these two people's thoughts are irrelevant, but if they can't be bothered to come to the thread to discuss it themselves, or to justify exactly why they're unbiased, I don't see how the evidence is all that great :/

 

[GodChef]

I think Rorsch is trying to show the thoughts of the people who ladder successfully and have experience facing/using talonflame at the higher level as opposed to people who will vote to ban/voice their opinions based on theorycrafting or no real experience with the tier.

 

[En Passant]

That depends on their type. If they run a type like Ground, who has several physical behemoths and wide access to SR and Stone Edge, then of course they're going to vote against a Talon ban because it's very easy to manage for them.

 

[GodChef]

Thats the thing though, why not buff types that need them instead of banning Talonflame which will hinder Fire's ability to be competitive.

 

[Crazy Horse]

The fact that someone's high on the ladder and played a lot of games does not mean they're unbiased. It means that they're very competitive, and they want to win. In fact, they're probably biased because with a talonflame ban the meta might change to something they're less capable in. Also, they might not want the metagame to include the three types talon counters because that would mean more things they'd have to build teams to counter; instead they're playing with teams that work well rather than teams they want to use, which is the whole basis of monotype: That you use a type you like.

I'm not saying that these two people's thoughts are irrelevant, but if they can't be bothered to come to the thread to discuss it themselves, or to justify exactly why they're unbiased, I don't see how the evidence is all that great :/

The problem with your claim is that Kaiser mains Steel mono. With bias he would gladly see TalonFlame gone. That and I know them both they know what they are talking about. They are way more credible for the discussion of this if they been playing that much and is safe to assume they care about the tier. Which is why getting the higher ladders is a part of a regular ban/suspect