Ladder Monotype [Read post #393 for Tiering Updates]

[JayDubb]

One point I would like to bring up based upon the MegaGross ban discussion is a comparison to Mega-Gallade. The reason why Gallade was banned was due to two things - an amazing moveset and great offensive presence. MegaGross has both of these things, and more, including better typing, bulk that allows it to tank an unacceptable amount of things, and autowin situations against types such as, again pointed out by Zer0, Rock, Ice and Fighting. So why ban Mega-Gallade and not Mega-Metagross? They lie in the same speed tier, and the only difference in favor of Mega-Gallade that I can see is a reliable way to boost its attack. But even then Megagross has the opportunity to grab a boost in the form of Meteor Mash, and while unreliable it can eliminate any hopes of tanking it's attacks you previously had. I mean, even his priority in comparison to Mega-Gallade is superior, as Mega-Gallade had to rely on Shadow Sneak while MegaGross has STAB Bullet Punch. All that we have to do is look at their stats side by side and we know that if Mega-Gallade gets the ban, MegaGross should too:

What do we see looking at these two? I recognize only a couple ways in which one could say that Gallade has the advantage, and that's #1 The fact that it can't flinch (which is pretty much irrelevant considering MegaGross resists near all flinching moves) and #2 higher attack, which is nullified by the presence of Tough Claws. Sure, Special Defense is slightly higher, but Megagross more than makes up for that in substantially greater base HP and Defense. Otherwise, again - the speed tier is the same, the movesets are about the same in terms of coverage, they are backed up (or were) by the exceptional team support given by psychic, and both maintain the role of an exceptionally powerful physical sweeper. Except, here's the difference - MegaGross has much, MUCH better bulk and typing, which makes it extremely difficult to revenge kill, without considering the fact that you might not even have the speed to do so. All in all, this thing is at 700 freaking BST (similar to Mega-Salamence btw) and needs to leave this metagame pronto.

tl;dr - If we banned Mega-Gallade, why are we not banning MegaGross, if it has much better bulk and power by comparison?

 

[RedsCharizard]

I suppose i'll share my thoughts on Mega Metagross.

Well, its stats are incredible, reaching a total of 700, higher than most pseudo-legends up-to-date. Incredible natural bulk, high attack boosted by Tough Claws and a speed tier that lets it outspeed many common threats, such as Garchomp, Landorus, Keldeo, etc. and putting it in the same speed tier as, for example, the lati twins. This means that Mega Metagross usually won't be outsped by non-scarfed Pokemon, and it has enough bulk to tank even a super-effective hit, if at full HP. This makes it an excellent and nearly unmatched late-game sweeper. That attack + Tough Claws lets it 2HKO most things in the current metagame.

Its movepool has incredible coverage: Great STAB in the form of Meteor Mash and Zen Headbutt, covering steel's fighting-type weakness, Ice Punch to make dealing with Ground easier(in some cases, even Grass Knot, as ArVaDa- mentioned), Earthquake or Hammer Arm to deal damage to threatening steel types and dark types (like Bisharp), and finally, Bullet Punch as priority. Back to my previous statement about it being a sweeper: these moves are nearly unresisted and will destroy most common things in the metagame.

Team support: Steel can easily spread hazards thanks to Skarmory and Ferrothorn, while Psychic can simply stall out most things that Metagross otherwise wouldn't be able to handle.

Calcs: Defensive

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 230-272 (76.4 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 257-304 (85.3 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO (A roll, and not in Bisharp's favor)
252+ Atk Gyarados Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 164-194 (54.4 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Genesect Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 170-202 (56.4 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (+1 from Download is 85 - 100.3%)
216 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 260-307 (86.3 - 101.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO (using Greninja's traditional Sp. Atk spread)

Tl;dr: A Pokemon with unmatched stats and movepool and access to great team support should be banned.

Will post about Greninja soon.

 

[Death God Anubis]

I'm not going to write much here, but just ban the damned thing. It doesn't give much chance to Fighting/Ice/lotsofmonos since its movepool is insane. What's the point of keeping it around, its teamsupport on Psychic/Steel is massive, and there's no point not to run it as to not just kill Fighting with ease on Steel, or screw with Ice/Rock on Psychic. I just don't see why it shouldn't be banned even though I really like it as a Mega and think its really welldone by Game Freak as to create a strong mega. Is it considered broken in OU? Yes. Is it even worse in Mono? Considerably so, because it just ruins type matchups for Fighting, and like somebody said, its like Talonflame as it gives specific monos no chance or little chance with luck added in. I've given it some testing and it gives a severe difference in battles vs. Fire as well on Steel.

TL:DR Too broken for Monotype, promotes dumb matchups, centralizing, etc.

 

[feen]

By what I've read so far and being in the mood to write something, I'd like to talk about the following mons-

Mega Metagross- This thing just got saved in OU by a close 2.7% of votes, so we already know how dangerous of a threat this is. In OU, it has walls regarding its sets. Usually Slowbro Hippowdon Quagsire can wall it if it's not running Grass Knot. What about in monotype? What does ice have for this thing? Destiny Bond froslass? Bullet punch OHKOs it if not sash. Sash T-wave to cripple it? Lol who'd use lead Megagross? Sure you can force it out. But you cannot wall any of its hits. Everything gets 2hkod. Now onto rock- Same story. Only Mega Aggron walls it but it forces you to overlook three wonderful megas rock has- Aerodactyl, Tyranitarand Diancie. Nothing else survives its mashes. Now let's go to Fairy: Lol a good steel player will never lose to a fairy player. Heck, even a bad player has about 90% to win against Fairies. I don't need to say how much it destroys the type. Ya'll know. About fighting, uhh I have mixed opinions of this. Firstly in psychic, Megagross doesnt run zen headbutt so it relies on other mons to take them out. But Breloom causes extreme pressure on Slowbro, psychics best wall v fighting while Heracross can sweep lategame easily. Also Metagross has a hardtime Mega evolving against fighting. You can't mega in front of Infernape, Keldeo, Gallade. Also
+1 252 Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 201-237 (66.7 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
so yeah it's easier than you think on psychic. On steel, you have Infernape to deal with, Keldeo to deal with which are very hard to beat with steel. Even if Megagross runs Zen Headbutt here you cannot switch into anything and if that's a scarf Keldeo.... welp.
Therefore, steel and psychic does need MegaGross, but it destroys some types completely.

I vouch for a suspect test.

Greninja- This is an Uber, because it has no walls, you basically need to scout it's movesets in order to wall and by you know it, the opponent figured out you're scouting and kills your switch in and a huge hole is made in your team. Why should it be banned? Because of its insane speed and support it gets from its types and the ability to destroy flying, ground, rock, fire, dragons if played right. Why shouldn't it be banned? Water is too good it doesnt need Greninja. As for dark, Mega Altaria destroys them after a DD, and scarf ninja can counter it. But scarf hydra, banded weavile can damage it badly before fainting.
252 SpA Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 164-194 (56.3 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 151-179 (51.8 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
heck try scarf weavile:
252+ Atk Weavile Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 236-278 (81 - 95.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
or scarf drapion:

252+ Atk Drapion Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 206-246 (70.7 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Also this-
252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mega Tyranitar: 300-354 (74.2 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And
0 Atk Mega Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 153-181 (52.5 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage

So yeah it is hard but there are ways to beat this thing.

Therefore I vouch to ban this thing.

Thank you.

 

[Sabella]

lol narset your wrong that is usually the standard set but people tailor it now

 

[Thimo]

One point I would like to bring up based upon the MegaGross ban discussion is a comparison to Mega-Gallade. The reason why Gallade was banned was due to two things - an amazing moveset and great offensive presence. MegaGross has both of these things, and more, including better typing, bulk that allows it to tank an unacceptable amount of things, and autowin situations against types such as, again pointed out by Zer0, Rock, Ice and Fighting. So why ban Mega-Gallade and not Mega-Metagross? They lie in the same speed tier, and the only difference in favor of Mega-Gallade that I can see is a reliable way to boost its attack. But even then Megagross has the opportunity to grab a boost in the form of Meteor Mash, and while unreliable it can eliminate any hopes of tanking it's attacks you previously had. I mean, even his priority in comparison to Mega-Gallade is superior, as Mega-Gallade had to rely on Shadow Sneak while MegaGross has STAB Bullet Punch. All that we have to do is look at their stats side by side and we know that if Mega-Gallade gets the ban, MegaGross should too:

What do we see looking at these two? I recognize only a couple ways in which one could say that Gallade has the advantage, and that's #1 The fact that it can't flinch (which is pretty much irrelevant considering MegaGross resists near all flinching moves) and #2 higher attack, which is nullified by the presence of Tough Claws. Sure, Special Defense is slightly higher, but Megagross more than makes up for that in substantially greater base HP and Defense. Otherwise, again - the speed tier is the same, the movesets are about the same in terms of coverage, they are backed up (or were) by the exceptional team support given by psychic, and both maintain the role of an exceptionally powerful physical sweeper. Except, here's the difference - MegaGross has much, MUCH better bulk and typing, which makes it extremely difficult to revenge kill, without considering the fact that you might not even have the speed to do so. All in all, this thing is at 700 freaking BST (similar to Mega-Salamence btw) and needs to leave this metagame pronto.

tl;dr - If we banned Mega-Gallade, why are we not banning MegaGross, if it has much better bulk and power by comparison?

Maybe because Mega Gallade has Swords Dance, and Mega Metagross is restricted to Hone Claws when we are talking about Attack raising setup moves, though Mega Metagross has 4 moveslots that often can't make place for Hone Claws.

 

[Mike81401]

Why is Slowbronite banned?

 

[Anttya]

One of those extremely powerful additions is Mega Slowbro. Theoretically, you'd think losing Regenerator for the sake of Shell Armour is a bad trade off, but practically, it is not. The mega evolved form of Slowbro gains a whopping base 180 Defence, coupled with a boosted 130 base Special Attack. Those stats mixed with Shell Armour, Calm Mind and Slack Off/Rest, means you have little to no chance of defeating Mega Slowbro. The only plausible ways of defeating this amazing tank is having a super effective STAB move or toxic stalling it. However, being on Water and Psychic teams, Mega Slowbro has an array of status curers on its side, as well as some Wish passers, adding even more support to this already insane tank, not to mention the CroBro set, making toxic stalling totally useless. As for the STAB super effective moves, that is obviously limited in Monotype and really is still not a good enough argument, as Water and Psychic teams are already very bulky and can easily support Mega Slowbro until the threat is gone, allowing the user to set up CMs late-game and finish the match.

With that said, all it takes is one-two Calm Mind's to secure a win on most teams, and the chance of doing so is not difficult at all, which is obviously a problem. The impenetrable defence, chances of Scald burns and its ability Shell Armour also implies that it cannot even get struck by a critical hit or suffer heavy damage on the physical side. Also, the ability to Trick it is also impossible, as it holds a mega stone.

All these factors listed in my paragraphs above dictate why this pokemon is obviously broken and must be banned. It is the best tank in Monotype at this moment and provides a lot of instances in which it autowins.

tl;dr Mega Slowbro has massive physical defence, no risk of a critical hit, cannot be crippled by Trick, extreme support to aid it if affected by Toxic, can burn any decent physical attacker with Scald, can Calm Mind in many instances, can run Rest to nullify the problem of being status'd completely, has high special attack (more than keldeo), can use Regenerator until the enemy threat is gone (can m-evolve afterwards). Slowbronite is banned globally.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-tiering-updates.3493087/page-45#post-5960563 Full post here. Check the first page for info on other bans.

 

[pokecole]

Why is Slowbronite banned?

.
Because it has GODLY defenses, walls any physical attacker pretty much, has access to slack off or resttalk to heal anything and has calm mind to boost the sp def so that it can tank every special hit ever and can't be critted. Also, a base 130 sp atk scald is nothing to scoff at.
No reason for it to be legal, unless breaking the game is fun.

 

[pokecole]

Maybe because Mega Gallade has Swords Dance, and Mega Metagross is restricted to Hone Claws when we are talking about Attack raising setup moves, though Mega Metagross has 4 moveslots that often can't make place for Hone Claws.

Mega Metagross doesn't need to set up to kill any of the types that it utterly obliterates, as Zer0 said in his post. It has a STAB priority move and almost every move gets a free boost from tough claws, along with the fact that it gets pretty much, if not better coverage than mega gallade. Refer to Zer0's post if you aren't assured that it is no bueno in mono.

 

[Not Zer0]

Maybe because Mega Gallade has Swords Dance, and Mega Metagross is restricted to Hone Claws when we are talking about Attack raising setup moves, though Mega Metagross has 4 moveslots that often can't make place for Hone Claws.

Mega Metagross doesn't run hone claws because it doesn't need it. Frankly, you could just run MM and unlike Mega Gallade, Mega Metagross has some major bulk.

 

[13_luckynumber]

How does mono Water deal with Galvantula? Swampert, Lanturn dies to Giga Drain, Tentacruel falls to Thunder, revenge killing is not that effective cuz sticky web ~~

 

[Acast]

How does mono Water deal with Galvantula? Swampert, Lanturn dies to Giga Drain, Tentacruel falls to Thunder, revenge killing is not that effective cuz sticky web ~~

If you want to revenge kill it, priority is not hindered by Sticky Web. Azumarill can revenge kill a weakened Galvantula with Aqua Jet.

Also, Lanturn doesn't die to Giga Drain like you said.
252 SpA Galvantula Giga Drain vs. 40 HP / 216+ SpD Lanturn: 120-142 (29.9 - 35.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Lanturn doesn't even need full Special Defense investment to tank Giga Drain like a pro.

You're also overlooking Rotom-Wash
252 SpA Galvantula Thunder vs. 252 HP / 212+ SpD Rotom-W: 105-124 (34.5 - 40.7%) -- 54.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Galvantula Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 212+ SpD Rotom-W: 96-114 (31.5 - 37.5%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

You're severely underestimating the bulk of Bulky Waters.
Galvantula really isn't that much of a problem. You have options to take care of it.

Also, in the future I would recommend asking questions like this in the Monotype room. You can get your answer faster there.

 

[scpinion]

The February usage stats are up on the Monotype Website. Sorry for the delay.

The format for the page has changed.
The old link will only take you to a welcome page for the entire stats section.

The usage stats and sprite gallery can now be found here: http://monotypeps.weebly.com/sprite-gallery.html
The matchup table and imbalanced matchups can be found here: http://monotypeps.weebly.com/matchup-tables.html
Note: I decided to redefine the cutoffs for “bad”, “neutral” and “good” matchups

Finally, we have a new page in the stats section that is dedicated to helping track metagame trends over time: http://monotypeps.weebly.com/type-analyses.html
In addition to the time-dependent trends there is lead information for each type, which is completely new to the stats section! If you’re having trouble understanding what is going on, take the time to read the captions!

Hope you guys enjoy the new content! Make sure to let me know if you need any help understanding the new page, or find any bugs!

 

[ArVaDa-]

Banning Mega-Metagross will not help fairy, rock, or ice because the next mega in line, imo, will be scizor. Scizor rips apart teams weak to bullet punch moreso than metagross.

I'm not a "god" when it comes to steel or dragon, but I would consider myself rather good since I have made it to #1 with steel and I know one of the best dragon users around to talk about this. Steel vs fighting and dragon is competitive, meaning it definitely isn't one sided.

Fighting, to my understanding and the chart's, generally wins against steel even with mega gross. There usually is a difficulty in mega evolving without damage, and with lower health mach punches and the scarf poke usually kill it.

As for dragon, it really is the same story. Keep in mind dragon is resisted by steel, but even then most dragon types carry a fire or ground move to punish the mega evolve, and then a scarf will put it in a coffin (even scarf shadow ball latios 2hkos).

Meanwhile against psychic...

It isn't a mystery as to why fighting loses to psychic most of the time, but the reason dragon loses, from my layman's perspective, is that the popular mons beat them anyways.

Wisp mew, slowbro (defensive wall), and mega/scarf gardevoir maim dragon. Metagross is just a nice choice that, in all honesty, people aren't picking for dragon but to fight other types.

tl;dr Seems competitive to me, although I think greninja is competitive as well, keep em.

 

[JayDubb]

Banning Mega-Metagross will not help fairy, rock, or ice because the next mega in line, imo, will be scizor. Scizor rips apart teams weak to bullet punch moreso than metagross.

I'm not a "god" when it comes to steel or dragon, but I would consider myself rather good since I have made it to #1 with steel and I know one of the best dragon users around to talk about this. Steel vs fighting and dragon is competitive, meaning it definitely isn't one sided.

Fighting, to my understanding and the chart's, generally wins against steel even with mega gross. There usually is a difficulty in mega evolving without damage, and with lower health mach punches and the scarf poke usually kill it.

As for dragon, it really is the same story. Keep in mind dragon is resisted by steel, but even then most dragon types carry a fire or ground move to punish the mega evolve, and then a scarf will put it in a coffin (even scarf shadow ball latios 2hkos).

Meanwhile against psychic...

It isn't a mystery as to why fighting loses to psychic most of the time, but the reason dragon loses, from my layman's perspective, is that the popular mons beat them anyways.

Wisp mew, slowbro (defensive wall), and mega/scarf gardevoir maim dragon. Metagross is just a nice choice that, in all honesty, people aren't picking for dragon but to fight other types.

tl;dr Seems competitive to me, although I think greninja is competitive as well, keep em.

ArVaDa-, what I want to recognize is how you say that "Fighting generally wins against steel even with mega gross." Here's the issue with that - it's only by a margin of 7.2%. In my opinion, if a type like steel is winning against another WITH a disadvantage nearly just as often as the opposing type, something is wrong. Yes, the objective is to aim for the closest neutrality in terms of type matchups, but when it's solely because of one Pokemon, that's not balance, that's using something powerful to beat what you lose to. In my eyes, it's similar to the Kyurem-W and Skymin situation. Yes, it helped the types against bad matchups, but that doesn't make it any more healthy for the meta (also realize that steel is not in any way bad, as I'm sure we all recognize). Also, any decent player wont try to switch in MegaGross inopportunely, but simply wall the opposition and wait for a switch. What needs to be recognized is that due to the amount of choice items and general un-switchability of Fighting, bringing in MegaGross is a lot easier than you make it out to be. It comes down to the point where so much switching is being done just to get around walls like Skarmory and Ferrothorn (which causes a lot more trouble for Fighting than you would think btw due to the crucial importance of longevity that Ferrothorn stops with things like Leech Seed and Rocky Helmet) that there are always moments where it's easy to just drop in MegaGross on a choice-locked mon or Breloom with a broken sash, that it's sort of ridiculous. All in all, if it takes an extremely offensive type like Fighting constant switching around to beat a type it has an advantage against, due to one Pokemon, then that Pokemon undoubtedly needs to be at least considered for a ban.

In terms of Dragon, while yes they do have a lot of Fire moves, Ground moves, and Scarfs, not all of them do. Not every Dragon is Scarfed with Fire Blast, unlike a lot of people tend to believe. Again, I want to point out that it takes a considerable amount of switching to get around MegaGross, which offensive types like Fighting and Dragon can't truly handle. Also, once said Fire Blast/Scarf mon is removed, all bets are off. For example, allow me to provide some calcs:

Matchup #1 - 252 SpA Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 236-278 (78.4 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Scarf)

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 232-274 (71.3 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (This plus a Bullet Punch and good-bye "MegaGross check")

Matchup #2 - +1 192+ Atk Mega Altaria Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 214-254 (71 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (AFTER DRAGON DANCE WITH ADAMANT)

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 392-464 (127.6 - 151.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Matchup #3 - 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 230-272 (76.4 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Scarf)

4 SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 122-144 (40.5 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Second situation, also Scarf when locked into Fire Blast)

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 496-584 (138.9 - 163.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (If no Ice Punch, there's always Meteor Mash+Bullet Punch super-combo)

Matchup #4 - 252+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 188-222 (62.4 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Scarf - keep in mind Modest LO doesn't kill either)

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 426-504 (108.9 - 128.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Matchup #5 - +1 252 Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 236-278 (78.4 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (This is after a Dragon Dance, and also accounts for Band).

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 246-290 (76.1 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (before Multiscale)

I think we've seen enough. The general trend is clear - sure you can use your Scarf Fire Blast or Earthquake, but it rarely, if ever at all, will kill Metagross. And unless if you have several Scarfs, along with access to Earth Power, Fire Blast, etc, then facing a Metagross will not be fun for you while using dragon. On top of this, when discussing whether or not a Pokemon is OP we can't stray towards this "1v6" state of mind. MegaGross is never alone in these sorts of matchups. Garchomp is locked into EQ or about to use it? Simply switch into Skarmory. Locked into Fire Blast? Heatran. Although it may take some degree of skill, knowing when your opponent is scarfed and about to attempt to kill your MegaGross, and whether they're using Fire Blast, EQ, or Dark Pulse isn't all that hard. Also, I doubt the opponent will have ALL of the mons mentioned above ^. Believe it or not, good Dragon teams usually only have 1 or 2, maybe 3 at most scarves (although I will admit I've seen 5 scarf dragon do work). They won't get up a DDance easily either. And Fire Blast Garchomp, Altaria, and Fire Punch D-Nite aren't all that common, and they definitely won't have them all on the same team (fire moves rarely do too much anyways, Fire Blast from Garchomp barely 2HKOs a Skarmory). Simply put, a decent player will know not to keep in a MegaGross against a Scarf Garchomp and take the safe play accordingly. And when they only have one Fire Blast/EQ mon left, all it takes is for Megagross in, tank said EQ and/or Fire Blast, and sweep.

tl;dr: Although Fighting and Dragon teams do have ways to stop MegaGross, they are often inefficient and unreliable, as most super-effective attacks result in a 2HKO and are responded by Meteor Mash+Bullet Punch - on top of the fact that once the mon or two that the Fighting or Dragon user has to "stop" MegaGross there's not much else they can do to win.

 

[Rumor]

oh are we just gonna post obvious and unconventional calcs now

 

[JayDubb]

oh are we just gonna post obvious and unconventional calcs now

Rumor, although the calcs may be obvious, I think the main thing that needs to be recognized, above all else, is MegaGross's ability to tank the vast majority of super-effective hits that come at it, and retaliate with a kill. Usually, you might have something with a Scarf that can revenge kill a powerful sweeper (like Mega-Gallade, for example) but with Mega-Gross you simply cannot do that. I apologize if you found those calcs and the point they proved irrelevant, I'd like to hear what you have to say on the subject.

 

[Keta]

Rumor, although the calcs may be obvious, I think the main thing that needs to be recognized, above all else, is MegaGross's ability to tank the vast majority of super-effective hits that come at it, and retaliate with a kill. Usually, you might have something with a Scarf that can revenge kill a powerful sweeper (like Mega-Gallade, for example) but with Mega-Gross you simply cannot do that. I apologize if you found those calcs and the point they proved irrelevant, I'd like to hear what you have to say on the subject.

Okay calm down now no need too meme the poor feller :/

 

[Rumor]

alright since we're rly gonna do this let me just say here that i voted ban for metagross in ou.

Metagross isn't broken enough to be banned nor is it broken enough to be even afraid of. You're posting irrelevant calcs about how everything is being overcentralized and and about how everything dies to it. For some reason, you're posting a calc about how altaria is using eq vs a metagross ?_? what player with a decent mind would stay in on a metagross. what player would build a team so weak to metagross in the first place?

"I want to touch on offense and its matchup vs. Metagross. As a player who uses offense and offensive balance pretty much exclusively, I'm fairly confident when I say that gross's matchup vs it is severely exaggerated. Is it a threat? Fuck yeah it is. Is it unbeatable, or make it so that my chances of winning are slim to none? Not in the slightest. It's on par with other monsters such as Life Orb Bisharp, or Specs Keldeo. Hell, mega Lopunny is a shiton more threatening than Metagross is because of its incredible speed tier. Anyways, back to Metagross. Metagross has to find a way to come in in order to safely mega evolve. And to do that, it either comes in on a resisted hit (such as a Latios Draco), or through a revenge kill. In either case, the switch in is not free as many people make it out to be. Assuming the former, gross is taking crucial damage that allows it to be revenged later on in the game. I've said multiple times on PS, and once in the thread, that gross is never at 100%. And it's not. Realistic game scenarios have it at somewhere near 70-80%, and even that's a bit high. Offense has enough offensive pressure that Metagross is often in range of being revenge killed by Talonflame, ScarfTar, Scarf Lando, Garchomp, what have you. Yeah gross has teammates for them but this goes both ways. Team matchup is a thing and one player is bound to have it. That player will not always being the one using Metagross. " -Clone

You named a mon such as... Scarf Chomp as an answer to Meta. First off... who the fuck runs ice punch metagross? rofl what is this amateur hour? have fun vs Slowbro. Especially if your'e on steel you're not gonna have a good time. GK is always preferred over ice punch and only new players will be running it. Plus even after you ice punch, you die to rough skin. and thats only if you're not running Hasty, which is by far the most preferred nature for meta...

and hold up wtf is this shit
252+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 244-289 (81 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
im tired of all these new players running irrelevant ass sets...

so what if it doesnt ohko! rofl who's gonna stay in on a metagross. better yet whos going to switch in on a kyurem-black,,,

let me just make something clear

Scarfing every mon wont solve your metagross problem

'scarf hydreigon, kyurem-b and garchomp' are not the answers to metagross

200 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 291-346 (96.6 - 114.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

Lastly, Metagross does not restrict team building. Especially the use of uncommon megas. What megas are held back in viability lol. Chances are if you're using gross, you're using gross because you wanna use gross, not something else. Even those that lose to it such as Diancie, Altaria, and Gallade are plenty viable as it is now. This extends to anything else gross checks. They're still present and still viable. Just look at Clefable. This isn't Aegislash where mega Hera, Gardevoir, Medicham, Hawlucha, Starmie, Slowbro, Celebi, a Mew, Terrakion, etc were pretty much fucked if Aegislash was on the opposing team. Gross doesn't do that. It just checks its targets just like Latios checks it's targets. Gross is a top tier mon that is just as threatening as any other top tier mon. The strain it puts on teambuilding is no more of a strain that Latios, Bisharp, Lopunny, Keldeo, Zard X, etc exert. It's already been stated multiple times that gross is not broken by BOTH sides of the spectrum. Once you take a look at this, you'll see that its place in OU. Is not unhealthy. It's presence keeps certain mons or cores in check without being broken. This isn't broken checking broken. Metagross's presence in the metagame isn't a negative one, and it shouldn't be banned just to "change the meta". - clone

 

[scpinion]

alright since we're rly gonna do this let me just say here that i voted ban for metagross in ou.

Just quoting arguments from the OU thread is not the way to make your point here in Monotype. The metas are quite different.

Now, for the parts you wrote:

Metagross isn't broken enough to be banned nor is it broken enough to be even afraid of. You're posting irrelevant calcs about how everything is being overcentralized and and about how everything dies to it. For some reason, you're posting a calc about how altaria is using eq vs a metagross ?_? what player with a decent mind would stay in on a metagross. what player would build a team so weak to metagross in the first place?

How about people that want to use a Fairy team. Ice? Fighting? Rock? Poison? Building a team weak to a really powerful mon is much easier to do around here. This means you might have to stay in on something like megagross and just put some damage onto it.

You named a mon such as... Scarf Chomp as an answer to Meta. First off... who the fuck runs ice punch metagross? rofl what is this amateur hour? have fun vs Slowbro. Especially if your'e on steel you're not gonna have a good time. GK is always preferred over ice punch and only new players will be running it. Plus even after you ice punch, you die to rough skin. and thats only if you're not running Hasty, which is by far the most preferred nature for meta...

How about over half the Metagross you will encounter on Steel teams are running Ice Punch? It is just as common as EQ for coverage. Grass Knot is only on 18% of them. Mind these stats are weighted for the high ladder, where the amateur players are not heavily influencing the statistics. At the moment, Flying teams seem to define a large chunk of the metagame and having something as powerful as megagross to bop them for SE damage is incredibly useful.

and hold up wtf is this shit
252+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 244-289 (81 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
im tired of all these new players running irrelevant ass sets...

He calc'd a +SpA nature scarf, not life orb. +SpA scarf is certainly a viable kyu-b set in monotype.

let me just make something clear

Scarfing every mon wont solve your metagross problem

'scarf hydreigon, kyurem-b and garchomp' are not the answers to metagross

200 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 291-346 (96.6 - 114.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

The trouble is that Hydreigon loses to the Ice Punch Megagross after 1-2 LO recoils or SR (which should be up against a Dragon team):
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 260-306 (80 - 94.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Its not like Meteor Mash makes the situation much better:
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 232-274 (71.3 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

As for the scarves: Scarf mons are more common in monotype than OU, much more common, especially on a Dragon team. The opponents entire team is going to have shared weaknesses. Something that out-speeds all of them and has SE coverage is incredibly useful. On Dragon, they're what you run to survive in the metagame as a whole, and thus they are what you will have to check megagross.

 

[Monotip]

Lastly, Metagross does not restrict team building. Especially the use of uncommon megas. What megas are held back in viability lol. Chances are if you're using gross, you're using gross because you wanna use gross, not something else. Even those that lose to it such as Diancie, Altaria, and Gallade are plenty viable as it is now. This extends to anything else gross checks. They're still present and still viable. Just look at Clefable. This isn't Aegislash where mega Hera, Gardevoir, Medicham, Hawlucha, Starmie, Slowbro, Celebi, a Mew, Terrakion, etc were pretty much fucked if Aegislash was on the opposing team. Gross doesn't do that. It just checks its targets just like Latios checks it's targets. Gross is a top tier mon that is just as threatening as any other top tier mon. The strain it puts on teambuilding is no more of a strain that Latios, Bisharp, Lopunny, Keldeo, Zard X, etc exert. It's already been stated multiple times that gross is not broken by BOTH sides of the spectrum. Once you take a look at this, you'll see that its place in OU. Is not unhealthy. It's presence keeps certain mons or cores in check without being broken. This isn't broken checking broken. Metagross's presence in the metagame isn't a negative one, and it shouldn't be banned just to "change the meta". - clone

Well, seeing as Scpinion answered the rest of it quite thoroughly, I'll answer this part. Why don't you try building a fairy, poison, grass, ice, or rock team that can beat Mega Metagross teams reliably without giving up too much in other matches and take it to the ladder? Those types are where the serious strain is, from what I understand. Looking at Bisharp, Lopunny, Latios, and Keldeo I don't see the same kind of strain on the same number of lower tier types as Mega Metagross causes.

I understand that you see things differently, seeing as you're coming from OU, but this metagame is way different. Therefore the strain caused by a given Pokemon can be either way more pronounced or way less so. We have to measure by team options too when we look at how powerful any Pokemon is because we only have so many to choose from. The closest thing resembling an OU team you'll find here is the flying type.

 

[pokecole]

alright since we're rly gonna do this let me just say here that i voted ban for metagross in ou.

Metagross isn't broken enough to be banned nor is it broken enough to be even afraid of. You're posting irrelevant calcs about how everything is being overcentralized and and about how everything dies to it. For some reason, you're posting a calc about how altaria is using eq vs a metagross ?_? what player with a decent mind would stay in on a metagross. what player would build a team so weak to metagross in the first place?

"I want to touch on offense and its matchup vs. Metagross. As a player who uses offense and offensive balance pretty much exclusively, I'm fairly confident when I say that gross's matchup vs it is severely exaggerated. Is it a threat? Fuck yeah it is. Is it unbeatable, or make it so that my chances of winning are slim to none? Not in the slightest. It's on par with other monsters such as Life Orb Bisharp, or Specs Keldeo. Hell, mega Lopunny is a shiton more threatening than Metagross is because of its incredible speed tier. Anyways, back to Metagross. Metagross has to find a way to come in in order to safely mega evolve. And to do that, it either comes in on a resisted hit (such as a Latios Draco), or through a revenge kill. In either case, the switch in is not free as many people make it out to be. Assuming the former, gross is taking crucial damage that allows it to be revenged later on in the game. I've said multiple times on PS, and once in the thread, that gross is never at 100%. And it's not. Realistic game scenarios have it at somewhere near 70-80%, and even that's a bit high. Offense has enough offensive pressure that Metagross is often in range of being revenge killed by Talonflame, ScarfTar, Scarf Lando, Garchomp, what have you. Yeah gross has teammates for them but this goes both ways. Team matchup is a thing and one player is bound to have it. That player will not always being the one using Metagross. " -Clone

You named a mon such as... Scarf Chomp as an answer to Meta. First off... who the fuck runs ice punch metagross? rofl what is this amateur hour? have fun vs Slowbro. Especially if your'e on steel you're not gonna have a good time. GK is always preferred over ice punch and only new players will be running it. Plus even after you ice punch, you die to rough skin. and thats only if you're not running Hasty, which is by far the most preferred nature for meta...

and hold up wtf is this shit
252+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 244-289 (81 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
im tired of all these new players running irrelevant ass sets...

so what if it doesnt ohko! rofl who's gonna stay in on a metagross. better yet whos going to switch in on a kyurem-black,,,

let me just make something clear

Scarfing every mon wont solve your metagross problem

'scarf hydreigon, kyurem-b and garchomp' are not the answers to metagross

200 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 291-346 (96.6 - 114.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

Lastly, Metagross does not restrict team building. Especially the use of uncommon megas. What megas are held back in viability lol. Chances are if you're using gross, you're using gross because you wanna use gross, not something else. Even those that lose to it such as Diancie, Altaria, and Gallade are plenty viable as it is now. This extends to anything else gross checks. They're still present and still viable. Just look at Clefable. This isn't Aegislash where mega Hera, Gardevoir, Medicham, Hawlucha, Starmie, Slowbro, Celebi, a Mew, Terrakion, etc were pretty much fucked if Aegislash was on the opposing team. Gross doesn't do that. It just checks its targets just like Latios checks it's targets. Gross is a top tier mon that is just as threatening as any other top tier mon. The strain it puts on teambuilding is no more of a strain that Latios, Bisharp, Lopunny, Keldeo, Zard X, etc exert. It's already been stated multiple times that gross is not broken by BOTH sides of the spectrum. Once you take a look at this, you'll see that its place in OU. Is not unhealthy. It's presence keeps certain mons or cores in check without being broken. This isn't broken checking broken. Metagross's presence in the metagame isn't a negative one, and it shouldn't be banned just to "change the meta". - clone

?_? These points are valid if we're talking about OU where you aren't restricted in what you are running and can run a pokemon that does the job for every problem pokemon.

"252+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 244-289 (81 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
im tired of all these new players running irrelevant ass sets..."
I'm pretty sure that not only is that a legit set, but he was giving you the benefit of the doubt there. It's not like physical Kyu-B was going to be doing much to a megagross, or at least not doing that much. So maybe don't be rude about him trying to give you the better end of the spectrum, unless you want to calc how much a scarf d-claw or fusion bolt does...?

"You named a mon such as... Scarf Chomp as an answer to Meta. First off... who the fuck runs ice punch metagross? rofl what is this amateur hour? have fun vs Slowbro. Especially if your'e on steel you're not gonna have a good time. GK is always preferred over ice punch and only new players will be running it. Plus even after you ice punch, you die to rough skin. and thats only if you're not running Hasty, which is by far the most preferred nature for meta..."
Again, this is monotype. Do you know what many view as the best type? Flying. You know what hits flying well? ICE PUNCH. And just because they're running ice punch doesn't mean that they can't hit slowbro. I don't necessarily see the need to run meteor mash on megagross if you're running a team that is legit made up of all steel pokemon. It could be like bp/ice punch/grass knot/zen headbutt. This isn't OU where most pokemon on a team are different types and run every stab they get.

Even though dragon is an offensive type doesn't mean there are like no opportunities to switch in. Everytime one of your pokes dies you legit have a time to switch in. Also, dragon has outrage, which they use a lot. Say your pokemon gets KO'd by a choice outrage and just any outrage in general and the dragon gets confused. Well hey, guess who is pretty safe to bring in? Metagross. So here the dragon player has to risk hitting themselves in confusion to hit for some move that -- fun fact -- won't kill megagross, or bring in some fodder, in which case megagross is mega evolved and you have a tier 0 problem on your hands. And that's the scenario if the dragon using outrage isn't choiced or the megagross isn't already mega evolved, in which case you entirely have to sack something to the based god megagross is.

I've fought dragon users a lot with megagross, mainly Zer0, and it isn't fun for them. If you weaken their team you can easily put in major work with megagross. Hell, anytime they have mega altaria in you can pretty much come in. If you predict at all or force them out of something, which steel and psychic easily do with slowbro/skarmory, they you have a nice switch to megagross and can bop the incoming pokemon a lot of the time. Victini can force mega altaria to kill it by scaring it with v-create, which does about half or more, and can get a free switch to megagross. You said yourself that no one would stay in on a megagross with an altaria right? Well now it is mega and can get a kill every time it comes out and switch to the bulky teammates it has, or just outright bop the type. Not much on dragon can take ice punch + meteor mash well.

Well hey, isn't this why mega mawile was banned? It gets a kill every damn time it comes out against many types, and that's no bueno.

"I want to touch on offense and its matchup vs. Metagross."
Hey, because all types have access to pokemon to make this possible, right? What are you gonna swap out on dragon to help with megagross that doesn't severely cripple your team against everything else? Also, dragon has a nice selection of like 10 usable pokemon to work with, so keep that in mind. Same goes for Ice, Rock, Poison, Grass, Fairy etc. If you wanna just quote arguments that aren't at all relevant here that's fine, but it isn't helping anyone make decisions for a separate tier that has way less accessibility than OU.

 

[Rumor]

fine fine im in the wrong just stop quoting me

 

[feen]

Sableye-Mega is absolutely tasteless and should be banned from Monotypes. In conjunction with nearly unkillable walls like Mandibuzz and Umbreon, the Dark Monotype team has not only become one of the most overplayed but one of the most frustrating to counter, with matches going over 100 turns just attempting to get Sableye-Mega at +4 to run out of PP. Oh that's right - unless his opponent does first. Too bad struggle can't even hit him. The inability to phase this pokemon without dragon tail is bogus, because his typing is only weak to fairy and good luck hitting him with play rough before getting burned. Guess that leaves room for only special type fairy attacks to do solid damage, good thing it's Monotypes.

Every type HAS a way to beat Mega Sableye with. I know it can be quite a pain but yes there are ways to beat this thing: Hit hard and not let it set up. Also, Play Rough still does a huge number on it after being burned lol. Any fire types can beat it and if you're talking about types like Ice and Grass, you have Mega Glalie to explode/Double Edge and Serperior to destroy it. If you want I can give you a detailed explanation on how to beat it but meh. I think it definitely needs a suspect test, not a quick ban though.