Monotype Viability Rankings V2

[n64lord]

• 
  (Water) A--->B ; I use starmie all the time, and I cannot see it lowering anytime soon. It's true that it's godly coverage is no longer a large part of its appeal, as it's SPA and the lowish amount of matchups calling for for tbolt/psyshock in particular are usually not quite as useful as neutrally effective STAB attacks on pokemon with better atk/spa and similiar speed (mega shark/keldeo). However, starmie still does wonders as a semi offensive hazard remover, and isn't restricted to one set, as reflect type starmie can come in on several types (particularly steel, dark, poison, grass) and largely do whatever it wants, while still having room for offensive coverage or support options that a simple "bulk" pokemon wouldn't have, which lets you keep much more momentum than a traditional stall mon. A Rank.
  
• 
  (Ice) A--->B ; I have a huge bias for froslass, but in all honesty clowster's suicide lead and hazard sets are just as effective. However, like froslass, it is all but useless in several matchups against common types. Given ice's difficult matchups, having the ability to use "sweeper" cloyster as a gimmick to win against fire and possibly bug is attractive, but still more or less totally preventable by most common teams and in my eyes totally outclassed by its lead sets. However it has an amazing side-benefit of ALWAYS being the one the opponent expects and more or less forcing their hand as regards their lead pokemon and being exploitable with proper kyurem/mamoswine usage. A Rank.
  
• 
  (Psychic) D--->C ; I see this more as just starting debate between how C/D rank differ from each other, but it works similarly to better pokemon with the occasinal advantage conferred by its immunity to poison/ground and can absorb t-wave without hurting its effectiveness as much as mew or deoxys-d. C Rank.
  
• 
  (Water) B--->C ; I've always thought this thing was mediocre, and unaware is becoming less and less of a redeeming factor as the meta continues to discard stuff like gallade for medicham. C Rank.
• 
  (Ground) C--->B ; Diggersby does wallbreaking as advertised. Ground is an aggressive type, and as the 6th member it is likely to appeal to the same people who run choice specs seismotoad>gastrodon. It's fairly effective, but I would say it requires a lot of commitment C Rank.

[/quote]

 

[Confluxx [Old]]

There's a huge difference in Ludicolo/Seismitoad and Quagsire.

Those two SS mons are outclassed by things like Kingdra and Mega-Swampert, mons that are in B rank.There isn't a replacement for Quagsire on Stall. If anything, it outclasses something like Gastrodon in the sense that both are bulky water/ground types with reliable recovery.

The comparison with Ludicolo and Seismitoad is equally as poor as the Swampert comparison in my opinion and isn't a good reason to move this down.

That's the thing though, the only reason it should ever be used is if it's on a Stall team, which although it is very viable and can get free wins, it's less common than Balanced and Offensive / Swift Swim. The same thing was said about Alomomola, another Pokemon that's usually only seen on Stall teams but is B Rank. However if one was to use Alomomola or Quagsire outside of Stall, Alomomola is definitely able to provide more and can do something no other Water-type can do and that's to pass a huge Wish and be an amazing defensive pivot thanks to Regenerator, while instead of Quagsire, another physically defensive Pokemon can be used that can complete multiple roles such as Rotom-W and Swampert.

Speaking of Rotom-W, it was brought to my attention by RZL that Rotom-W is unranked on Water. That will most likely be solved asap as Rotom-W definitely deserves a spot on the rankings.

 

[Dece1t]

Id give Rotom a solid B. Good general pivot, access to Will-o-Wisp is handy, and its neutrality to electric/light weight (so grass knot does miniscule damage) is never a bad bet. It's definitely a b ranked mon.

 

[Day Healer]

Posting my thoughts on a pair of mons:

(Ice) A--->B: While being a strong sweeper, I have 2 problems with cloyster which make me think it could be B rank (i'm not talking about the spikes set here, I find it painfully outclassed by froslass which at least can thunderwave or bring something down with the bond):

- Using Cloyster means you are forgetting the far more useful tanking abilities of Walrein or Lapras, read: you are literally forfeiting to mega scizor or steel atacks (not that u had that much chances to begin with, but using cloyster u are killing the few chances u had)

- The second reason is: while cloyster is a nice sweeper, the only matchups where it bright is again types where ice have already the advantage (dragon, ground, flying sort of), while all the other types have 1 or other way to stop it easily on its tracks, the only notable exception is again fire where cloyster does a great job given the right circunstances, but again u could just run scarfed Kyurem-B with does good, if not better again fire.

In short, I find Cloyster adds nothing to the table when talking about matchups and u are better running Kyurem-B or even mega Glalie if you need a physical hitter. Put it on B

(Water) A--->B: Same like n64lord, I have tested myself the wonders of Reflect Type Starmie, and can say thats is a very viable set as well. First of all, Starmie is 1 of the few hazard control mons of water (the others being tentacruel and empoleon). It differentiate itself from the rest in it have reliabe recovery. Not only that, Natural cure to act like a status absorber, and scald the best move in the game, and finally the cherry in the top, Reflect Type alow it to win 1vs1 again threats like ferrothorn, tyranitar, charizard-y, etc.
Coupling this set with the offensive spinner set and you see why Starmie is a solid A rank.

 

[Dece1t]

Posting my thoughts on a pair of mons:

(Ice) A--->B: While being a strong sweeper, I have 2 problems with cloyster which make me think it could be B rank (i'm not talking about the spikes set here, I find it painfully outclassed by froslass which at least can thunderwave or bring something down with the bond):

- Using Cloyster means you are forgetting the far more useful tanking abilities of Walrein or Lapras, read: you are literally forfeiting to mega scizor or steel atacks (not that u had that much chances to begin with, but using cloyster u are killing the few chances u had)

- The second reason is: while cloyster is a nice sweeper, the only matchups where it bright is again types where ice have already the advantage (dragon, ground, flying sort of), while all the other types have 1 or other way to stop it easily on its tracks, the only notable exception is again fire where cloyster does a great job given the right circunstances, but again u could just run scarfed Kyurem-B with does good, if not better again fire.

In short, I find Cloyster adds nothing to the table when talking about matchups and u are better running Kyurem-B or even mega Glalie if you need a physical hitter. Put it on B

(Water) A--->B: Same like n64lord, I have tested myself the wonders of Reflect Type Starmie, and can say thats is a very viable set as well. First of all, Starmie is 1 of the few hazard control mons of water (the others being tentacruel and empoleon). It differentiate itself from the rest in it have reliabe recovery. Not only that, Natural cure to act like a status absorber, and scald the best move in the game, and finally the cherry in the top, Reflect Type alow it to win 1vs1 again threats like ferrothorn, tyranitar, charizard-y, etc.
Coupling this set with the offensive spinner set and you see why Starmie is a solid A rank.

I completely disagree with your statement for Cloyster. You can run both it and Lapras/Walrein, yes they share the same typing, but they play very different roles. So your argument there is invalid. Not to mention, it's actually a pretty decent Breloom check thanks to Icicle Spear. Also, your forgetting 2 matchup cloyster plays a huge role in, Fire. All of the types you mention cloyster has little effect on, Ice already has an edge against those, but Fire, that's a different story. Yea, Walrein is resistant to it, but it's not gonna take repeated Fire STAB attacks in the sun, or Solar Beam forever. Cloyster is able to sweep the type (or at least it's one of the best options there is). Fire is an offensive type that's often hard to wall (let alone the worst defensive type in the game), you need to apply pressure, which Cloyster ALONG WITH Kyurem B does a great job doing. Take this from someone who actually plays with Ice, and believe me when I say it is A ranked.

 

[Wanka]

I don't have time to post on all of them, but I wanted to take a minute to post on Quagsire. I think it should stay in B rank.

People's arguments to move it down have centered around two things: 1) It requires significant team support, and 2) Swampert.

I supported the move for Alo b/c it was a 'mon that enables a particular style of Water team, much like the SS mons. In the same sense that you don't want to play SS without Kingdra or Politoed, you wouldn't want to stall without Quagsire or Alo. The key premise of Stall is that the entire team supports one another very well, thus it isn't surprising that "Quagsire needs lots of support to be effective".

While it isn't what it used to be, Stall Water is still very viable in our metagame. The initial stages of the ladder tour show people think they can use it for easy wins against the ladder (which is probably true). Thus, I don't think we should move one of the most important 'mons from this playstyle down to C rank when the rest of the team sits in S/A/B.

In light of Quagsire's primary role being on Stall Water, Swampert is really an irrelevant comparison. I completely agree that Swampert is generally a more viable 'mon—its A-level ranking reflects that. However, Swampert lacks reliable recovery and does little to help with setup sweepers, which makes Quagsire the preferred Water/Ground for Stall.

Scp I think you put us in a tough spot when you compared stall to SS because on paper that makes a lot of sense and on paper it would merit a B rank for quag. However, I honestly don't think stall water is on the same level of effectiveness as SS. There was an initial shock when Thimo introduced the meta to the style and that initial shock ended awhile ago. It's just not that good anymore and it isn't something that performs particularly well on the higher ladder whereas SS is a very good style that has proven to be one of the most consistent styles to use in tours and on the ladder.

It really isnt hard to figure out that a lot of the metas premier wall breakers can break stall water pretty easily. Things like mega garde, hoopa, mega medicham, meloetta, mega garchomp, diggersby, offensive landorus T, lando I, mega pinsir, mega heracross, mamoswine (just a good chunk of mons off the top of my head, there could be more) all threaten the hell out of stall water. Some more than others for sure, but if any of those mons are used to the best of their ability throughout a battle, Opposing stall water teams are going to struggle. Its not like those mons are uncommon either, you are going to see them a lot on the higher portions of ladder. Sweepers and stall breakers like manaphy, sub cm keldeo, and mew also give stall water a headache as well. Again, mons you are going to be coming across on the higher ladder as well. To add insult to injury, you're stall, and with stalls nature of not being able to do anything about the mons it's weak to, that is exactly what's going happen when you come across a lot of the mons mentioned above. That aspect makes it extremely matchup reliant and it takes away from waters usual identity of not being as matchup reliant as the other 17 types, which makes it the worst style of water you can use. It isn't terrible, but it's still the worst style you can use when using water.

Again, SS has proven to be an extremely effective tour and high ladder type, which makes the mons strictly usable on SS B rank as opposed to strict stall mons. With stall being the worst style, mons solely usable on it get the worst rank. And the reason that things like alo, tenta, lanturn, empo, azu etc. are higher ranked than quag is because those mons aren't loyal to stall. Tenta, lanturn, alo, and empo are all viable on balance builds. Alo isn't as good as the other three on balance so it gets the lowest rank out of the three. Azu is also very good on balance along with SS and any other offensive water builds.

That's just my outlook on why quag should be C.

Keep up the good discussion guys.

 

[Day Healer]

I completely disagree with your statement for Cloyster. You can run both it and Lapras/Walrein, yes they share the same typing, but they play very different roles. So your argument there is invalid. Not to mention, it's actually a pretty decent Breloom check thanks to Icicle Spear. Also, your forgetting 2 matchup cloyster plays a huge role in, Fire. All of the types you mention cloyster has little effect on, Ice already has an edge against those, but Fire, that's a different story. Yea, Walrein is resistant to it, but it's not gonna take repeated Fire STAB attacks in the sun, or Solar Beam forever. Cloyster is able to sweep the type (or at least it's one of the best options there is). Fire is an offensive type that's often hard to wall (let alone the worst defensive type in the game), you need to apply pressure, which Cloyster ALONG WITH Kyurem B does a great job doing. Take this from someone who actually plays with Ice, and believe me when I say it is A ranked.

Hi there man, about your points:

- I know mons of same typing can be run on on monotype teams (examples are the normal core porychan, some defensive ground cores of both gastrodon/quagsire and others I can't remember now), but i don't think monoice can afford that luxury, one because its awful defensive typing and 2, most important because it hardly find a spot in a serious ice team, with Avalugg, Kyurem-B, Walrein / Lapras, Mamoswine / Piloswine, Weavile, and Mega Glalie / Abomasnow, also Froslass if you want your spikes.

- I mentioned "the only notable exception is again fire where cloyster does a great job given the right circunstances", but is so difficult to setup your shell smash again a fire team that the chance of sweep don't worth the spot in the team. Lets see what setup chances cloyster have again the fire physical attackers (don't mind special attackers, cloyster just die):

252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 160-190 (66.3 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (scarf set)
168 Atk Infernape Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 186-222 (77.1 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (sash set, life orb does more)
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 147-174 (60.9 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 147-174 (60.9 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (scarf set, other sets with searing shot just kill it)

Like you see most attacks leave it prone to be revenge killed by entei eespeed, so it can at most get only 1 kill. Only again Entei or victini it have reasonable chances to setup (entei can burn it btw so is 50/50)

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 79-93 (32.7 - 38.5%) -- 98.5% chance to 3HKO

I know you have more experience with the type, but with I have tested cloyster in the past I stay in my position of it being B rank.

 

[Dece1t]

Hi there man, about your points:

- I know mons of same typing can be run on on monotype teams (examples are the normal core porychan, some defensive ground cores of both gastrodon/quagsire and others I can't remember now), but i don't think monoice can afford that luxury, one because its awful defensive typing and 2, most important because it hardly find a spot in a serious ice team, with Avalugg, Kyurem-B, Walrein / Lapras, Mamoswine / Piloswine, Weavile, and Mega Glalie / Abomasnow, also Froslass if you want your spikes.

- I mentioned "the only notable exception is again fire where cloyster does a great job given the right circunstances", but is so difficult to setup your shell smash again a fire team that the chance of sweep don't worth the spot in the team. Lets see what setup chances cloyster have again the fire physical attackers (don't mind special attackers, cloyster just die):

252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 160-190 (66.3 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (scarf set)
168 Atk Infernape Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 186-222 (77.1 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (sash set, life orb does more)
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 147-174 (60.9 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 147-174 (60.9 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (scarf set, other sets with searing shot just kill it)

Like you see most attacks leave it prone to be revenge killed by entei eespeed, so it can at most get only 1 kill. Only again Entei or victini it have reasonable chances to setup (entei can burn it btw so is 50/50)

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 79-93 (32.7 - 38.5%) -- 98.5% chance to 3HKO

I know you have more experience with the type, but with I have tested cloyster in the past I stay in my position of it being B rank.

Ummm, have you seem Broc's Ice Team? That had a Cloyster, Ice Teams can usually be built pretty differently, there isn't exactly a set format for building it, other than covering as many weaknesses as possible, because there's a lot of them. Plus, since it's awful defensively (Avalugg being typically the only wall ran), you typically take an offensive approach.

As for when to set up against fire, the goal is to take out priority before setting up late game. Mamoswine, Piloswine, Kyurem, Walrein and/or Avalugg will often be the ones to do that. Once they're out, so long as hazards are kept off the field, your guaranteed a sweep (especially considering the fastest viable* scarfer is Victini, nothings gonna revenge kill it if it's Jolly). Without Cloyster, fire would be significantly harder to win, also worth noting doing all of the requirements above is still a difficult task. A rank, period.

 

[average fella]

last post I'll make on the mono forums until gen 7, moving on to less bad metas.

Cloyster: A->B
the I kind of felt like posting this in my big ol' ice mega-post last thread but felt it'd be too controversial so I didn't, glad vid had more nerve than me to suggest it.

IMHO cloy is a crutch for bad ice players. every competent ice team I've used has had 1 primary MO, to clear a path for a kyub clean, which is done by various support mons, whether it's Avalugg spinning, Aboma/Aurorus hail, Walrein's dealing with steels, etc... cloy ice is a drastically different way of playing ice, you get two mons instead of 1 that can't add defensive synergy because it is absolutely necessary to keep them in tip-top shape in order for cleans by either of them to be feasible (I'm assuming sash cloy). As much as I hate to say it, cloy really isn't worth the loss of defensive synergy that, say, aboma or pilo provide. more often than not. you are essentially being forced to do more with less with Cloyster ice. Btw why do you not just click outrage to win against fire. Kyu-B has basically 0 reliable switchins, you use fusion bolt to pop tran if they have one, then you earth power on mons not named Charizard until they hard switch tran in, then you just... win. I don't understand why people think that the matchup is difficult, and that Cloyster solves it???

+2 4 SpA Cloyster Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran in Sun: 194-230 (60 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Yeah, have fun breaking heatran with your cloyster, or try your best to beat all of fire's priority users while keeping your sash and keeping no rocks with the pure momentum drain that is Avalugg, and killing zardy somewhere along the way. Do you know of a mon that can clean fire while requiring none of this support? I do, and it happens to the best mon on the type. Just use Kyurem-Black and stop talking about Fire.

Its roles on the Grass matchup is more pronounced (forces Breloom to come out, and is one of the two ways to break its Sash without sacking something to Spore, the other being Abomasnow hail), and if people started trying out HP Fire Cloyster, it actually does a decent amount against Bug/Steel (Scizor stops the physical set cold even with Hydro Pump after Stealth Rock and there's a roll for Pinsir Quick Attack and Scizor Bullet Punch to kill the Cloyster [+2 4 SpA Cloyster Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 247-292 (72 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO])


Other than that, it dominates matchups kyu-b already dominates in (i mean if your opponent uses scarf kyu-b on drag you're in luck with your Cloyster? Avalugg beats it but so does Cloyster i guess) ice dittos will never be relevant in the meta but cloy is really good in it, if your opponent doesn't carry roar lugg (and has it at about 75% health without sr and full health with sr), you win when you shell smash. I'm not sure why you'd build your team around the ditto but if you feel like it Cloyster is definitely the mon for you.


self edit:. removed insults until I get sleep and can make coherent ones

scp edit: just leave them out entirely.

 

[Dece1t]

last post I'll make on the mono forums until gen 7, moving on to less bad metas.

Cloyster: A->B
the I kind of felt like posting this in my big ol' ice mega-post last thread but felt it'd be too controversial so I didn't, glad vid had more nerve than me to suggest it.

IMHO cloy is a crutch for bad ice players. every competent ice team I've used has had 1 primary MO, to clear a path for a kyub clean, which is done by various support mons, whether it's Avalugg spinning, Aboma/Aurorus hail, Walrein's dealing with steels, etc... cloy ice is a drastically different way of playing ice, you get two mons instead of 1 that can't add defensive synergy because it is absolutely necessary to keep them in tip-top shape in order for cleans by either of them to be feasible (I'm assuming sash cloy). As much as I hate to say it, cloy really isn't worth the loss of defensive synergy that, say, aboma or pilo provide. more often than not. you are essentially being forced to do more with less with Cloyster ice. Btw why do you not just click outrage to win against fire. Kyu-B has basically 0 reliable switchins, you use fusion bolt to pop tran if they have one, then you earth power on mons not named Charizard until they hard switch tran in, then you just... win. I don't understand why people think that the matchup is difficult, and that Cloyster solves it???

+2 4 SpA Cloyster Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran in Sun: 194-230 (60 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Yeah, have fun breaking heatran with your cloyster, or try your best to beat all of fire's priority users while keeping your sash and keeping no rocks with the pure momentum drain that is Avalugg, and killing zardy somewhere along the way. Do you know of a mon that can clean fire while requiring none of this support? I do, and it happens to the best mon on the type. Just use Kyurem-Black and stop talking about Fire.

Its roles on the Grass matchup is more pronounced (forces Breloom to come out, and is one of the two ways to break its Sash without sacking something to Spore, the other being Abomasnow hail), and if people started trying out HP Fire Cloyster, it actually does a decent amount against Bug/Steel (Scizor stops the physical set cold even with Hydro Pump after Stealth Rock and there's a roll for Pinsir Quick Attack and Scizor Bullet Punch to kill the Cloyster [+2 4 SpA Cloyster Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 247-292 (72 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO])


Other than that, it dominates matchups kyu-b already dominates in (i mean if your opponent uses scarf kyu-b on drag you're in luck with your Cloyster? Avalugg beats it but so does Cloyster i guess) ice dittos will never be relevant in the meta but cloy is really good in it, if your opponent doesn't carry roar lugg (and has it at about 75% health without sr and full health with sr), you win when you shell smash. I'm not sure why you'd build your team around the ditto but if you feel like it Cloyster is definitely the mon for you.


stun im skeptical you actually play this game. like your knowledge of ice isn't wrong but... it's wrong. who in their right mind doesn't build ice offensively? once you stop fighting fire players who keep their zardys in on full health pilo, once you stop fighting grass players who fall for teravolt ice beam, once you stop assuming your opponent is a literal potato for the purpose of justifying your bad teambuilding decisions then you can end your posts in "period" claiming that youre amazing at this meta.

Ok, first off, it is 3 Am, I don't think anyone making a huge post at this ungodly hour is a great idea.

However, moving on from that, I said ice should be played offensively, idk if you read my post wrong or what. Your post though...I'm trying to make sense out of all that, because little of what your saying makes sense. How exactly does Cloyster change the "synergy of ice teams?" I'm so confused what you mean by that and how that's actually the case. It's also worth noting, Kyurem doesn't completely* sweep fire, if your not careful, Heatran can switch into an Outrage, Infernape can revenge kill it, and Scarf Victini outspeeds it (and Darm often speed ties it depending on your evs, some people like me don't run max). That's where Cloyster can often come in handy (minus the Heatran point, Pilo or Mamo can check that too), not to mention outside of Fire, it can threaten a lot of neutral matchups to and if played right, have the ability to clean...

Fella, I highly urge you to re read what you wrote, im having a hard time understanding what the hell your trying to get across here, but, im assuming you do want it to drop. I hope this clears things up about that.

 

[Zap]

last post I'll make on the mono forums until gen 7, moving on to less bad metas.

Cloyster: A->B
the I kind of felt like posting this in my big ol' ice mega-post last thread but felt it'd be too controversial so I didn't, glad vid had more nerve than me to suggest it.

IMHO cloy is a crutch for bad ice players. every competent ice team I've used has had 1 primary MO, to clear a path for a kyub clean, which is done by various support mons, whether it's Avalugg spinning, Aboma/Aurorus hail, Walrein's dealing with steels, etc... cloy ice is a drastically different way of playing ice, you get two mons instead of 1 that can't add defensive synergy because it is absolutely necessary to keep them in tip-top shape in order for cleans by either of them to be feasible (I'm assuming sash cloy). As much as I hate to say it, cloy really isn't worth the loss of defensive synergy that, say, aboma or pilo provide. more often than not. you are essentially being forced to do more with less with Cloyster ice. Btw why do you not just click outrage to win against fire. Kyu-B has basically 0 reliable switchins, you use fusion bolt to pop tran if they have one, then you earth power on mons not named Charizard until they hard switch tran in, then you just... win. I don't understand why people think that the matchup is difficult, and that Cloyster solves it???

+2 4 SpA Cloyster Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran in Sun: 194-230 (60 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Yeah, have fun breaking heatran with your cloyster, or try your best to beat all of fire's priority users while keeping your sash and keeping no rocks with the pure momentum drain that is Avalugg, and killing zardy somewhere along the way. Do you know of a mon that can clean fire while requiring none of this support? I do, and it happens to the best mon on the type. Just use Kyurem-Black and stop talking about Fire.

Its roles on the Grass matchup is more pronounced (forces Breloom to come out, and is one of the two ways to break its Sash without sacking something to Spore, the other being Abomasnow hail), and if people started trying out HP Fire Cloyster, it actually does a decent amount against Bug/Steel (Scizor stops the physical set cold even with Hydro Pump after Stealth Rock and there's a roll for Pinsir Quick Attack and Scizor Bullet Punch to kill the Cloyster [+2 4 SpA Cloyster Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 247-292 (72 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO])


Other than that, it dominates matchups kyu-b already dominates in (i mean if your opponent uses scarf kyu-b on drag you're in luck with your Cloyster? Avalugg beats it but so does Cloyster i guess) ice dittos will never be relevant in the meta but cloy is really good in it, if your opponent doesn't carry roar lugg (and has it at about 75% health without sr and full health with sr), you win when you shell smash. I'm not sure why you'd build your team around the ditto but if you feel like it Cloyster is definitely the mon for you.


self edit:. removed insults until I get sleep and can make coherent ones

I actually dont know what point ur trying to make in this, but I'll also assume you want it to be dropped in rank. I'll just comment on some points u made, one being that kyurem just wins against fire.
Well thats absolutely not true, the amount of support kyurem needs is quite a bit to win. Firstly, ur up against fire, with the only hazard removal being avalugg spin, or articuno defog, so goodluck getting rocks off ur side. But lets say you do,
252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 246-289 (62.9 - 73.9%) Victini outspeeds and gets a kill almost everytime, or atleast a huge chunk of ur health, this is also where cloyster comes in handy vs fire because of it's coverage. Also cloyster doesnt HAVE to SS just to be useful against fire, it can just simply click rock blast too. You make extremely bold claims a few times saying that kyurem B basically sweeps fire, so that is why im highlighting this.

You said:
"Yeah, have fun breaking heatran with your cloyster, or try your best to beat all of fire's priority users while keeping your sash and keeping no rocks with the pure momentum drain that is Avalugg, and killing zardy somewhere along the way. Do you know of a mon that can clean fire while requiring none of this support? I do, and it happens to the best mon on the type. Just use Kyurem-Black and stop talking about Fire."
what i got from this was 'do you know which mon requires no support beating fire, even tho its weak to rocks, the mach punch priority its weak to, as well as the neutral acrobatics it can take damage from, oh yes, the choice locked kyurem which requires a switch everytime it locks itself into a move'

Also just a sidenote, why would you want to use hydropump in the sun, when it has more of a chance to miss, and does less damage than rock blast?
+2 252 Atk Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Heatran: 210-250 (65 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
But i guess it depends on the spread of the heatran, so ig this doesnt matter then, but just wanted to point it out.

You make a good point for cloyster on grass, which i feel is a pretty equal matchup despite the obvious type advantage, because of grass monos access to mega venu, ferro, and breloom. Same with bug and scizor.

You also go on to say that kyurem and cloyster help in the same matchups, so no need to run cloyster. Well not true, they have completely different roles and cant be compared so easily. Scarfkyurem is powerful, but it requires so much more offensive support, that is where cloyster comes in. They both work together to weaken the enemy team to either prepare for a sweep, or take out a threat.

 

[Vid]

Ranking Discussion #4 this discussion is short because Wanka is on vacation

• 
  (Flying) A--->B
• 
  (Steel) B--->A
• 
  (Normal) B--->A

Rank Changes Discussion #3

• 
  (Water) Stays A
• 
  (Ice) A--->B
• 
  (Psyshic) D--->C
• 
  (Water) On Hold to be discussed Later
• 
  (Ground) Stays C

Other Changes

• 
  (Water) Unranked--->B

 

[Dece1t]

Ranking Discussion #4 this discussion is short because Wanka is on vacation

• 
  (Flying) A--->B
• 
  (Steel) B--->A
• 
  (Normal) B--->A

Rank Changes Discussion #3

• 
  (Water) Stays A
• 
  (Ice) A--->B
• 
  (Psyshic) D--->C
• 
  (Water) On Hold to be discussed Later
• 
  (Ground) Stays C

Other Changes

• 
  (Water) Unranked--->B

Why was cloyster ranked down? Most people agreed it should stay A

 

[Confluxx [Old]]

Why was cloyster ranked down? Most people agreed it should stay A

It was even. The council voted and decided it should drop. If you want to hear our reasoning, PM us on Showdown.

 

[1 True Lycan]

• 
  (Steel) B--->A Definitely agree with this. Any time I make a balanced steel I always use this pokemon because it is just so versatile and patches up so many weaknesses for steel teams. I particularly enjoy using a calm mind 3 attacks set which gives steel a much needed special sweeper. With coverage including thunderbolt, energy ball, icy wind, and moonblast it can threaten any type you want it to. Defensive steel is impossible to pull off in this metagame imo since pokemon such as keldeo (1 example, there are many more) just have no switchins on steel. This is where jirachi comes in, using its decent bulk to tank hits and revenge kill a threat or to sweep late game. Jirachi is also an excellent scarfer on steel, with access to heart stamp and ice punch it can reliably revenge kill most threats to steel monos. This pokemon can be used on every playstyle and performs a role which no other pokemon on steel can do (also haven't even mentioned utility such as spdef wish or healing wish sets). A Rank.

Rank Change Discussion

• 
  (Ice) A--->B This pokemon is B rank, PERIOD.

Other Changes

• 
  (Water) Unranked--->B Gotta agree with this, I have been experimenting with a spdef rotom as an alternative to lanturn since it can gain more momentum. Also has physdef and scarf sets. However, its best set is as a pivot which is arguably better performed by lanturn due to its superior bulk and access to heal bell, this prevents rotom from being A rank imo.

 

[6ti]

- Agree, it offers no defensive synergy to the type, but it does have a nice speed tier. B

- Agree, it fulfills so many roles and is neutral to fighting. A

- agree, most of the arguments have already been stated for it, i don't really have anything to add. A

 

[Eien]

Tornadus-T absolutely should drop. It just doesn't compare at all with the other A ranks. Some of the A ranks (Landorus-T / Mega Charizard Y) are basically S ranks that lose out due to the opportunity cost of the other option. Thundurus and Dragonite provide some much needed Speed control, as the Flying team is rather slow most of the time. Togekiss can be Choice Scarf to be fast as well and, thanks to the wonders of 60% flinch rate, can be useful in almost every matchup.

What does Tornadus-T do? Really doesn't do much. It's far too easily KOed without Assault Vest and far too weak without Life Orb. Being able to take one hit from Kingdra is all nice, until you can't OHKO it back and need two Regenerator activations to actually be able to do it again. It also can't even switch into Latios, easily being 2HKOed. Even Choice Scarf Kyurem-B can 2HKO with Ice Beam or just OHKO with Fusion Bolt. It's an offensive pivot thanks to U-turn and Regenerator, but it really doesn't force many switches in the important matchups that Flying needs an edge in. In general, it certainly isn't a bad Pokemon, but it lacks a tangible niche.

Tornadus-T A -> B

 

[SubMindRaikou]

Cobalion C -> B

I've noticed this in the steel viability rankings and I think Cobalion should be moved from C to B rank

Cobalion provides a ton of support and from my personal experience with it it frees up a lot of moveslots. A short overview for people who haven't tried it out, you want to run at minimum 200 speed with a boosting nature to outspeed Lando I. Life Orb is the best item and most Cobalion ev to ohko lando with HP Ice with the remaining EVs in attack. Cobalion's useful movepool includes Stone Edge, Close Combat, Focus Blast, HP Ice, Volt Switch and steel STABs and it even gets niche moves that let it wallbreak, support or sweep in Taunt, Stealth Rock, Thunder Wave and Swords Dance. Depending on what it runs Cobalion can do a lot of things such as checking Lando and Garchomp with HP Ice, checking Charizard and Volcarona before a boost with stone edge, checking Hydreigon with your fighting STAB, setting and keeping rocks vs flying (focus blast and stone edge beats skarmory and zapdos) bug (focus blast or steel stab vs forretress and armaldo) fire (focus blast for torkoal and stone edge for charizard) and gaining momentum with volt switch. Cobalion can also do what it usually does on fighting in twaving switchins and taunting to prevent recovery, and more niche sets can use Swords Dance to attempt to sweep later in the game thanks to Cobalion amazing speed tier.

Comparing Cob to its fellow C ranks and the above B ranks I think it's clear where Cobalion should stand. Against the C ranks, Cobalion provides more to the steel user than they do.

Bronzong can work as a specially defensive answer to infernape and landorus but it's low attacking stats means that outside of se hits if you can't toxic them then they will set up on you.

Durant provides another speedy attacker that can at least check fighting types in general and help by providing bug stab but the existence of mega scizor kinda makes this bug irrelevant for the most part.

Lucario makes a nice sd or np sweeper but it's relatively low speed tier means that it's not that hard to revenge kill. It's coverage means that it also doesn't help that much in your weaker mus and only really helps you'r good mus.

Scizor is just a worse mega scizor except for the freed up mega slot and more immediate power but outside of that it doesn't offer much.

My point with comparing Cobalion to the other C ranks is to show that it doesn't suffer from just being outclassed like Durant and scizor, and it isn't a niche option for just 1 or 2 pokemon like bronzong for infernape and landorus i. It also helps more on your not so good mus instead of just excelling in your bad mus. Next would be comparing it to the b ranks (excluding JirachI since I'm pretty sure it's moving to a rank anyway since it's so great).

Empoleon with a scarf works wonders against ground and fire, and having a fast strong Ice move can really help against threats like dragons with ground and fire coverage.

Klefki provides screens, hazards and speed control which also helps steel monotypes a lot, giving setup sweepers an easier setup time and slowing down opponents to make way for the stronger slower attackers.

My point with comparing Cobalion with B ranks is that, while steel monotypes can function and do well without Cobalion or the B ranks, they can certainly help and the B rank pokemon aren't outclassed by other pokemon.

So while Cobalion isn't needed 100% of the time, it certainly is a good pokemon to use on steel teams. It's not outclassed in its roles like the other C rank pokemon and fits as a nice add on like the other B rank pokemon. It will help your team in checking major threats and can perform quite a few different roles depending on what your team needs, which is why I think Cobalion should be moved from C to B rank.

tl;dr Cobalion is just as good as the b ranks in making mus nicer but it isn't needed 100% of the time like the a or s ranks

 

[iLlama]

Just noticed that Tornadus is unranked on Flying. I would say it definitely deserves consideration for Unranked -> C. It has a similar role to other C ranked mons in Staraptor and Hawlucha, and with access to Prankster + Bulk Up, it can be a fairly decent Flying STAB set up mon. It also has coverage moves in Superpower and Knock Off which can come in handy, as well as other options via Prankster.

 

[Eien]

Just noticed that Tornadus is unranked on Flying. I would say it definitely deserves consideration for Unranked -> C. It has a similar role to other C ranked mons in Staraptor and Hawlucha, and with access to Prankster + Bulk Up, it can be a fairly decent Flying STAB set up mon. It also has coverage moves in Superpower and Knock Off which can come in handy, as well as other options via Prankster.

I like C rank there. By the way, I'd also note that it's the only viable Prankster Tailwind user on Flying, so it could make for an interesting HO Flying team.

 

[finncepti0n]

Froslass(Ice) B --->A

Froslass is the most effective check vs mega medicham in ice monotype, making her a must unless users accept auto-losses vs psychic and fighting monos. Additionally, Froslass provides utility with Spikes, Taunt, and/or Thunder wave, crippling opposing supports(taunt), entry hazard setters(taunt), squishy choiced sweepers(thunder wave + sash), and surprises foes with a well timed Destiny Bond.

Side note: how can you rank lapras above froslass .-.

 

[Vid]

Froslass(Ice) B --->A

Froslass is the most effective check vs mega medicham in ice monotype, making her a must unless users accept auto-losses vs psychic and fighting monos. Additionally, Froslass provides utility with Spikes, Taunt, and/or Thunder wave, crippling opposing supports(taunt), entry hazard setters(taunt), squishy choiced sweepers(thunder wave + sash), and surprises foes with a well timed Destiny Bond.

Side note: how can you rank lapras above froslass .-.

Quick thing to mention Ice is a terrible type and even with Froslass Ice still loses to Psyshic and Fighting type teams why?
The short answer is Froslass has no recovery and is overall just really weak. In order to beat "beat" Mega Medicham you need to play perfectly how does that warrant A Rank?
Also on Mega Medicham Psyshic the whole team threatens your Ice team in some way. Examples being Victini and Hoopa-U

Calcs

252 SpA Froslass Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Medicham: 218-258 (83.5 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Froslass: 292-345 (84.8 - 100.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Froslass: 196-232 (56.9 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
I put best case scenario for shadow ball and max bulk on Froslass and it still loses to Mega Medicham which is pretty bad considering it should check Mega Medicham

Also addressing sidenote it's because unlike Froslass Lapras can check Scizor effectively without perfect prediction. Also having Freeze Dry is nice to get rid of water types Kyurem-B can't get rid of.
Hopefully I addressed this concern and explained everything in this short post

 

[TheMinimizer]

Tornadus-T(Flying) A--->B. Whilst it is a good mon as arguably the best user of Flying STAB, it is not on the level of stuff like Charizard-Y, Lando-T and Dragonite. Eien summed it up better than I can.

IDK Much about Rachi on Steel :/

Ditto(Normal) B--->A This is one of, if not the only, the checks Normal has to setup sweepers. It can shut down a sweep and turn it the other way round. This is a staple on many Normal teams. It deserves A

 

[Vid]

Going to implement changes Right Now
Rank discussion #4

(Flying) A--->B

(Steel) B--->A

(Normal) B--->A VR Council can't decide although we'll raise it and see what people say in the future
Other Changes

(Flying) Unranked---->C
Rank Discussion #5 will be up later in the week, so for now it's open discussion

 

[Wanka]

Ditto has been pretty tricky for us but I've developed some glued thoughts for you guys to think about with ditto. I personally think it should stay B but any indecision between us usually merits your opinions so thats why we brought it back up.

I personally think that there is just this general consensus that you throw ditto on basically every normal build no matter what because a lot of people have never actually experienced what its like not to use ditto (including myself until recent times). It just inherently comes off as a nice blanket / emergency answer to any threat to the evio core and you wouldn't think to use any other mon because a big part of using normal is being able to protect your beloved backbone. Usage aside however, you actually dont need ditto as much as a lot of people think you do and you can easily get away with using other filler mons like meloetta, heliolisk (super underrated mon), porygonZ, etc. who can bring something different to the table for normal teams. All of which in particular have the tools to pick apart some higher tier types with their respective offensive prowess's.

There has just kind of been a precedent set by normals usage stats that ditto is just this brainless mon that should always be getting used even though it isn't needed as much as that precedent may make u think it should.
That being said, we don't rank based off of usage. We try to give in depth looks on mons that may have bigger impacts on the meta whether or not said mons usage reflects that impact. (See manaphy) That's kind of what I see happening here with ditto even though ditto is still a good mon to use on normal teams. It does bring that safety blanket to normal teams but I think the importance of ditto's role doesn't outweigh the roles of mons I previously mentioned. In a meta where balance will always dominate, the roles of mons that can be used in place of ditto are much appreciated thus not making ditto anymore of a liability than they are. Imo ditto should be b rank.