I really like flygon... The most overrated would be blissey. It's a great pokemon on stall and I love using it on stall but it's not hard to play around unless you have pokemon that are all weak. Maybe it's only because people play it so predictably. You shouldn't have to predict a lot on stall but if they play like " oh special sweeper I should go into blissey and if they have a physical sweeper I'll go to hippowdon!!" then they'll lose horribly. The problem is that people play like their stall pokemon are invincible.
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Most Overrated 4th Gen Pokemon in OU?
- Thread starter MazeL
- Start date
There's no serious argument for any OU Pokemon that isn't Weavile, or Electivire. Various Pokemon may be overrated but there is no way either of the above two Pokemon can somehow be less overrated than Vaporeon or Blissey or whomever you're disappointed in. The fact that both of these are still OU is absurd.
If we're going to bag on Weavile, I feel the need to point out that Mamoswine is outright worse. EQ and Stealth Rock were the only good attacks he had. Ice Shard could beat Flygon and Dragonite, but anything remotely defensive and not 4x weak to it would laugh at it. Slow, easy set-up bait for Skarm, no chance in hell of beating anything he's walled by. He's not even a good lead.
Anyone who's played this game longer than five minutes knows why Umbreon shouldn't be OU. Also, I challenge anyone who says Smeargle was worth his salt.
Anyone who's played this game longer than five minutes knows why Umbreon shouldn't be OU. Also, I challenge anyone who says Smeargle was worth his salt.
idk Smeargle was used for access to Spore and faster Spikes than Forretress (or something like that...I think)
Weavile pretty much lets Skarm set up too.
Aside from the crappy stuff like Dusknoir, Ninjask, Electivire, Umbreon, etc. who can't really count as overrated because only noobs overrate them, I would say it was Flygon, whose base 100 attack and 80 SpA did not let it run any offensive sets effectively. Scarf set is arguably outclassed by Jirachi, who can trick, is not as predictable, and can flinchhax stuff in a pinch.
Weavile pretty much lets Skarm set up too.
Aside from the crappy stuff like Dusknoir, Ninjask, Electivire, Umbreon, etc. who can't really count as overrated because only noobs overrate them, I would say it was Flygon, whose base 100 attack and 80 SpA did not let it run any offensive sets effectively. Scarf set is arguably outclassed by Jirachi, who can trick, is not as predictable, and can flinchhax stuff in a pinch.
#5
Lead machamp is so overated....does nothing against stall and cant set up sr. Azelf and heatran adapted to it, so all its really good for is beating aerodactl. Very few reasons to use it over breloom, and is breloom bait itself when not used with a lum berry. Outclassed by metagross if you ask me. Meta can even surprise stuff with grass knot.
#4
Unpredectable, yet still easily countered. Everytime i face one it explodes into a ghost. Pretty much outclassed by aerodactl as a suicide lead, except it trades the ability to beat some threats.
#3
Not a bad sweeper, but has too many checks that are too common. Doesnt hit hard enough without a life orb and dies too fast with it. Sr cripples it badly. The cb set needs more love
#2
Everytime i use swampert i get hit by random grass knots or hp grasses on lead pokemon...does even worse against stall then machamp does. Hippowodon is a better bulky gound and suicune is a better water. Not much reason to use him if you ask me. Lets stall spike all over you.
#1
Talking about the sd set here. Just like gyrados it has WAY too many counters (jirachi, gengar, gyrados, shaymin, etc). The agility set is decent but overall too weak. Its speed is just too low, even with priroty, IMO. Nasty plot did little to improve him in the 5th gen.
Except that flygon has infinately better stabs, isnt trapped by magnezone, isnt weak to eq/fire blast, and can actually synergyze with scizor.
#4
#3
#2
#1
Except that flygon has infinately better stabs, isnt trapped by magnezone, isnt weak to eq/fire blast, and can actually synergyze with scizor.
^ I used to run LO sets with Taunt just to make sure stuff like that doesn't happen. Pursuit, Low Kick, Taunt, and Ice Shard to be specific. But that was back in the Salamence days when I actually used Ice Shard.
Sp. Def Skarm actually took CB Ice Punch pretty hard. Sometimes I just stay in and spam it until I get a crit or freeze. Or until it's weakened to the point where I can 2HKO it on the switch-in. Jolly Mamoswine can't really do that; it's almost always a free setup.
@Boondocker: I suppose you can call those counters if the Lucario player always blindly SDs and doesn't run the appropriate move. SD Lucario was the single best sweeper in OU post-Mence. Nothing cleared out teams quite like him.
Sp. Def Skarm actually took CB Ice Punch pretty hard. Sometimes I just stay in and spam it until I get a crit or freeze. Or until it's weakened to the point where I can 2HKO it on the switch-in. Jolly Mamoswine can't really do that; it's almost always a free setup.
@Boondocker: I suppose you can call those counters if the Lucario player always blindly SDs and doesn't run the appropriate move. SD Lucario was the single best sweeper in OU post-Mence. Nothing cleared out teams quite like him.
You did not just say Mamoswine. Mamoswine is an amazing pokemon. Especially back when mence was around. It was among the best anti metagame Poekmon being able to take advantage of weather and dragons.
Anyway most overrated Pokemon was Swampert. There always seemed to be a better option. Sure it could wall alot of things but without really good wish support it was only going to be able to do for a little while before fainting. And my god swampert's lead set was horrible in comparison to the other leads around.
Anyway most overrated Pokemon was Swampert. There always seemed to be a better option. Sure it could wall alot of things but without really good wish support it was only going to be able to do for a little while before fainting. And my god swampert's lead set was horrible in comparison to the other leads around.
have you ever used mamoswine ever
seriously i mean mamo had decent defenses, a sky high attack, and unlike weavile he had usable resistances that he could switch in on making him an actually good choice bander
like i don't understand how you can go "wow mamoswine is so much worse than weavile" while being a skilled pokemon player
this
mamoswine is a monster, during the dragons era he could just run through balanced teams with an lo set, he could destroy one of the best leads of that era in one shot (heatran),and he's always been an incredibly solid user of cb
Electivire, Dusknoir, Ninjask, Weavile.
Although Weavile was really good when Mence, Chomp, and Latias were still around, became meh after that.
Also, how the hell people saying Scizor and Heatran were overrated? They were hands down the best Pokémon during 4th Gen. CB Technician Bullet Punch can even revenge kill stuff that resists it, and Heatran could run so many different sets, you never knew what to expect until it was already doing it's thing. I dunno, just my two cents, I only ever played NU, UU and ubers, really.
Although Weavile was really good when Mence, Chomp, and Latias were still around, became meh after that.
Also, how the hell people saying Scizor and Heatran were overrated? They were hands down the best Pokémon during 4th Gen. CB Technician Bullet Punch can even revenge kill stuff that resists it, and Heatran could run so many different sets, you never knew what to expect until it was already doing it's thing. I dunno, just my two cents, I only ever played NU, UU and ubers, really.
Honestly, Swampert works greatly on my team. Protect over Roar to scout for those HP Grasses and Grass Knots and Ice Beam/ Earthquake has great coverage, notably counters non CB Tyranitar, Dragonite, Some Trans, can eat Scizor BPs for Breakfast, and can set up SR usually without fear of dying. Machamp is worth his rating, though I prefer him out of the lead position. Sub+3 Attacks is great, especially if you can get paralysis support. With Paralysis support and a free Sub by parahax, it can be gg quickly.
Electivire is bad, but not insanely terribad. Umbreon is really bad. Weavile is really bad. Smeargle is really niche. Dusknoir is, well, I haven't seen one in forever. Suicune is not overrated. If I had to say any one Pokemon was really overrated, I would say
Aerodactyl. One, if you want to get SR up and prevent your opponent, then run a bulky lead and get some Rapid Spin support. Aerodactyl builds offensive momentum from the start, but if you think you'll keep that momentum against a decent player you're kidding yourself. If you wait to cash in on that momentum, you'll lose it, as you're opponent can either Spin, set up, or both. For everyone who think Swampert is overrated, Aerodactyl's base Attack is even smaller.
It loses to about every lead. Azelf can attack it and kill it, Metagross Bullet Punches, Swampert Ice Beams. Getting SR up and making your opponent wait a couple turns is not an excuse to start the battle 6-5.
Electivire is bad, but not insanely terribad. Umbreon is really bad. Weavile is really bad. Smeargle is really niche. Dusknoir is, well, I haven't seen one in forever. Suicune is not overrated. If I had to say any one Pokemon was really overrated, I would say
Aerodactyl. One, if you want to get SR up and prevent your opponent, then run a bulky lead and get some Rapid Spin support. Aerodactyl builds offensive momentum from the start, but if you think you'll keep that momentum against a decent player you're kidding yourself. If you wait to cash in on that momentum, you'll lose it, as you're opponent can either Spin, set up, or both. For everyone who think Swampert is overrated, Aerodactyl's base Attack is even smaller.
It loses to about every lead. Azelf can attack it and kill it, Metagross Bullet Punches, Swampert Ice Beams. Getting SR up and making your opponent wait a couple turns is not an excuse to start the battle 6-5.
Actually, in the beginning of DPP(or just DP rather), Electivire was hyped up to god-awful proportions, and used pretty often, and it just failed hard :(
Most overrated pokemon for me was, actually, Umbreon. How is it OU -_-
That's just a sentiment people echo now because of how hard he's countered by Rotom-A and a lot of other shit that's popular now. Think back to D/P when there was no Rotom-A and Electric attacks usually came from Raikou or some other shit. That's when he was actually half-decent.
Dude, you just called Weavile really bad, then in the same breath you say Electivire isn't and and Smearlgle isn't either. That makes no sense at all.
Also, how many times did you wish you could Ice Punch that annoying Celebi/Gliscor/Shaymin in the face. Or Pursuit Rotom-A/Starmie/Gengar? It outspeeds DDtar and Scarftar naturally too. Are you guys really letting these insanely horrible ladder players form your opinion on a really decent Pokemon? How many of you have even used him?
My vote is for electivire. It's lackluster stats did NOT make up for it's movepool, and they were extremely frustrating at times. Anyway, for the most part, it seems as if everyone agrees on flygon, as well as electivire. Nothing else, in my opinion, was quite as overrated as those two.
I feel the need to defend Azelf, Flygon and Gyarados, as they form half of one of my best teams.
Azelf is a very versatile lead. People see it as just suicide but that's just dumb. Take that label to Aerodactyl because Azelf can set up weather, use U-turn to fake out Ghost-types (or, y'know, just double-switch out), use its more than decent SpA to dent stuff... the list goes on, really. MAYBE it is slightly overrated, but its place in the lead statistics is completely justified. Personally, I liked using Azelf as a sort of "terrorist", switching in and threatening Explosion only to keep faking the opponent out.
Flygon... People pay too much attention to its admittedly lackluster offenses. But NEWSFLASH! Not every offensively inclined Pokémon is a sweeper! Flygon is one of the most effective scouts in OU due to its fantastic typing+ability. EQ+U-turn alone goes a long way in making the opponent nervous. Outrage is meant to sweep if you get the chance, not just throwing it out because zomg it's its most powerful move. There's also mixed Flygon.
Gyarados I'll admit has been rather overrated in the past, but honestly, it gets too much undeserved hate now. Seriously, that stat distribution is just sexy. Gyarados has a special place in my heart in Gen IV, so maybe I'm a little bit biased, but it also more or less deserves its current usage IMO. It's the only OU with INTIMIDATE, and it can dent Jirachi/Rotom-A switch-ins hard enough. Bulky DD variants are pretty beast. Alternatively, there's RestTalk, which is very, very good.
Azelf is a very versatile lead. People see it as just suicide but that's just dumb. Take that label to Aerodactyl because Azelf can set up weather, use U-turn to fake out Ghost-types (or, y'know, just double-switch out), use its more than decent SpA to dent stuff... the list goes on, really. MAYBE it is slightly overrated, but its place in the lead statistics is completely justified. Personally, I liked using Azelf as a sort of "terrorist", switching in and threatening Explosion only to keep faking the opponent out.
Flygon... People pay too much attention to its admittedly lackluster offenses. But NEWSFLASH! Not every offensively inclined Pokémon is a sweeper! Flygon is one of the most effective scouts in OU due to its fantastic typing+ability. EQ+U-turn alone goes a long way in making the opponent nervous. Outrage is meant to sweep if you get the chance, not just throwing it out because zomg it's its most powerful move. There's also mixed Flygon.
Gyarados I'll admit has been rather overrated in the past, but honestly, it gets too much undeserved hate now. Seriously, that stat distribution is just sexy. Gyarados has a special place in my heart in Gen IV, so maybe I'm a little bit biased, but it also more or less deserves its current usage IMO. It's the only OU with INTIMIDATE, and it can dent Jirachi/Rotom-A switch-ins hard enough. Bulky DD variants are pretty beast. Alternatively, there's RestTalk, which is very, very good.
Aerodactyl is pretty overrated. It just lays down SR and then dies...
Also I feel the need to speak out against Pokemon like Umbreon. It's not overrated BECAUSE NO ONE THINKS ITS GOOD (seriously no good players think Baton Passing Mean Look is a good strategy).
Also I feel the need to speak out against Pokemon like Umbreon. It's not overrated BECAUSE NO ONE THINKS ITS GOOD (seriously no good players think Baton Passing Mean Look is a good strategy).
If you ask me weavile and electivire were absolutley over-hyped but certainly not overrated since basically no one even thought they were good in the first place (after the hype died down). You can't be overrated if nobody overates them in the first place but I do agree with you that the fact that they're ou is just ridiculous.
Yeah, being faster than the majority of the metagame without a choice item or gimmick and the ability to check and trap a lot of its threats is pretty bad.
wait what am i saying
Electivire can hardly check anything, he's just a gimmick sweeper. On what planet is he the same as Weavile?
wait what am i saying
Electivire can hardly check anything, he's just a gimmick sweeper. On what planet is he the same as Weavile?
I wish I had an electivire every time suicune reared it's ugly head...
Anyway, I disagree with almost everything everyone is saying.
Azelf? Please, definitely NOT outclassed by aero. Best case for Aero is 6-5 with rocks. Best case for Azelf is 5-5 with rocks. One of those is way better. Not to mention that you could tailor the set to deal with Machamp, Metagross, Breloom etc. Also, Azelf had multiple, multiple lead sets... Screens were excellent, it could do weather, u-turn, what's not to like?
Aerodactyl: maybe. But anyone using an aerodactyl lead knew that they were going to go 6-5 with sr up and their opponents lacking. They weighed this and thought it was worth it. You can disagree, but if a person makes an informed choice that this is worth it for their team, who's to say otherwise?
Gyarados: The hardest part of stall to deal with. Also, sometimes your 100% counter in celebi or vaporeon or whatever would get messed up by a random bounce set. Your counters and checks had to be at high health or else your entire team might be dead.
Swampert: Maybe. But it did it's job of setting up sr, checking loads of random stuff, and roaring stuff away really, really well. Better than other bulky grounds because it doesn't just die to special sweepers, better than other bulky waters because it was immune to sandstream, resisted stealth rock, was immune to electric. And if stuff is running hp grass just for it, then you know it's good.
Flygon: Really good run-away-threat check, scouter, could oftentimes polish off a weakened team with earthquake or outrage sweeps. I can see people not liking it because it was poor against stall and invited opponents to take advantage of obvious u-turning (sometimes), but still, it was the best scout in the game and held together a lot of my teams.
Blissey: One of the main reasons we have a physical metagame? Does NOT just die to random physical attacks? One of the best status spreaders in the game? Can set up sr, pass wish, aromatherapy? I mean, don't put it in some hyperoffence team, but it's excellent in the right team, and a staple of stall...
Weavile, Electivire, Smeargle, Dusknoir, Ninjask: Overrated? No one thought they were good so how were they overrated? If anything they were probably underrated because people just dismiss them as threats...
My vote would be for Roserade. Hard to switch-in, and relatively helpless once sleep clause is activated (though that does mean one mon is out, so that's saying something). It does absorb and set up toxic spikes, but it's offensive presence was quite low despite that 125 special attack. Depending on hidden power, either heatran or salamence/skarm/shaymin was getting infinite free switch-ins... It provides good utility, but is hard to switch in, and is a liability after it does its job.
Anyway, I disagree with almost everything everyone is saying.
Azelf? Please, definitely NOT outclassed by aero. Best case for Aero is 6-5 with rocks. Best case for Azelf is 5-5 with rocks. One of those is way better. Not to mention that you could tailor the set to deal with Machamp, Metagross, Breloom etc. Also, Azelf had multiple, multiple lead sets... Screens were excellent, it could do weather, u-turn, what's not to like?
Aerodactyl: maybe. But anyone using an aerodactyl lead knew that they were going to go 6-5 with sr up and their opponents lacking. They weighed this and thought it was worth it. You can disagree, but if a person makes an informed choice that this is worth it for their team, who's to say otherwise?
Gyarados: The hardest part of stall to deal with. Also, sometimes your 100% counter in celebi or vaporeon or whatever would get messed up by a random bounce set. Your counters and checks had to be at high health or else your entire team might be dead.
Swampert: Maybe. But it did it's job of setting up sr, checking loads of random stuff, and roaring stuff away really, really well. Better than other bulky grounds because it doesn't just die to special sweepers, better than other bulky waters because it was immune to sandstream, resisted stealth rock, was immune to electric. And if stuff is running hp grass just for it, then you know it's good.
Flygon: Really good run-away-threat check, scouter, could oftentimes polish off a weakened team with earthquake or outrage sweeps. I can see people not liking it because it was poor against stall and invited opponents to take advantage of obvious u-turning (sometimes), but still, it was the best scout in the game and held together a lot of my teams.
Blissey: One of the main reasons we have a physical metagame? Does NOT just die to random physical attacks? One of the best status spreaders in the game? Can set up sr, pass wish, aromatherapy? I mean, don't put it in some hyperoffence team, but it's excellent in the right team, and a staple of stall...
Weavile, Electivire, Smeargle, Dusknoir, Ninjask: Overrated? No one thought they were good so how were they overrated? If anything they were probably underrated because people just dismiss them as threats...
My vote would be for Roserade. Hard to switch-in, and relatively helpless once sleep clause is activated (though that does mean one mon is out, so that's saying something). It does absorb and set up toxic spikes, but it's offensive presence was quite low despite that 125 special attack. Depending on hidden power, either heatran or salamence/skarm/shaymin was getting infinite free switch-ins... It provides good utility, but is hard to switch in, and is a liability after it does its job.
Ok, maybe i was too hard on azelf, but you gotta admit it has a 4 moveslot syndrom. It wants u-turn, explosion, psychic, fireblast, sr, taunt, color berry, and maybe some other stuff. It has alot of stuff it can do but any 1 set has serious flaws. Mirror matches suck, as does getting taunted by aerodactl. Unpredectability never made anything good in the past and it cant now. Yeah, it'll get you wins but if you ever play the same person again it loses effectiveness.
I should probably replace azelf with UXIE. I know its not ou but i have seen good players lead with it. Trick scarf sets are 100% countered by flygon, thunderwave versions by shaymin, and anyset lets stall get sr+spikes. Knockoff/u-turn/psychic/sr is cool with a magnezone or something but no one uses that.
Gyra stays on my list, though i admit its pretty good against stall teams.
At that point why not use breloom? He can make twice as many subs, has a second stab, SPORE, and can even use stun spore himself (not a bad move on him either, although missing sucks).
Whoever said gengar is crazy. IMO hes one of the biggest threats there is. Especially when paired with heatran+breloom+gyra.
It is if you cant switch in on anything. Gengar subs, starmie hydro pumps, shaymin seed flares, etc. He is better then electavire though. And anything is better then umbreon.
Agreed, but if youre good at double switching it can be helpful. Theres alot of pokes that cant do alot to it. Its not that bad, but i like the lead set better. And outside of leading i'd rather use forteress+shaymin or something.
Wuddup.
In the entirety of playing Pokemon I've always found that an opposing SD Luke is so underwhelming and getting scared of it "sweeping" my team is a ridiculous idea. It can easily be taken out by the steel trapper Magnezone set even if it's set up. Swampert is such a nice counter as well, due to its bulk. (Not sure, but it would seem that a +2 CC w/ LO never OHKO'd Pert). Its speed is low, and mostly everyone who uses the SD set uses the +Att nature.
I will admit that using the SD set with a +Speed nature (Jolly) is a much more threatening prospect.
Also, Electivire IS a gimmick sweeper. But he can still OHKO a lot of unexpected Pokemon. For example, an Adamant Evire can outspeed the CS Heatran with EQ carrying a CS of its own. Same goes for dealing incredible damage with Ice Punch to a DD'd Nite.
My point is, with a Choice Scarf, Evire becomes usable, because we all know Evire can't carry its own weight with a simple LO.
Scarf flygon>scarf vire. Better resistences, u-turn, better stab, with managable weaknesses. Dont use scarf vire unless you really hate suicune and want a stronger thunderpunch. But good luck koing.
Of course it's not going to OHKO. We're talking about SUICUNE here, one of the best walls in the game.
I'm not saying that this ScarfVire is better or worse than any other Scarfer out there such as Flygon (who does outspeed and OHKO with EQ of course), but I'm saying that using a Choice Scarf on Evire makes him a rather amazing and unexpected revenge killer, which in turn makes him usable! (Because everyone thinks Evire sucks...)
Here's a scenario; When sending out a Flygon against a DD'd Nite, the other person automatically thinks that you're going to revenge kill with Outrage. But, when you send out your Evire, they wouldn't give a second thought but to EQ it! However, little do they know that you will actually outspeed and OHKO with Ice Punch.
It's situational, but it works!
That just proves you have zero experience using him and are operating on hearsay of popular opinions. Weavile actually can switch in on the attacks you just mentioned and survive, even if they're offensive LO (nevermind the fact that Shaymin and Starmie could be using a coverage move or running a bulky support set, in which case they have no chance). I've calced these things a while ago; even at max damage roll, Starmie misses the KO with Hydro Pump. Gengar can be caught trying to revenge things with Shadow Ball, or simply on the revenge.
Gliscor poses no threat to Weavile unless he's attempting to steal momentum with U-turn. Defensive Zapdos has no way of OHKOing him and can miss the KO even if it switches in on Heat Wave. Scarf Flygon is too weak to OHKO with his strongest move.
Nevermind the fact that you shouldn't blindly switch non-bulky offensive Pokemon into stuff anyway; the fact the he can find some common switch-in opportunities to do his job disproves the theory that he "can't switch in" or "dies to everything." It's not cool to make fun of something you don't understand, it's just ignorance.