Announcement NatDex Ubers Announcements and Player Surveys Results

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Survey results​

Thanks again to everyone who participated in the survey! We received a total of 39 votes with 12 people that reached the threshold to be eligible as qualified voters. As a criteria for qualified users we selected people who got past round 4 of National Dex Ubers Spring Seasonal and that had an alt among the top 50 users on the ladder.

Here are the results, with values ranging from 1 to 10, representing low and high satisfaction respectively.
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  • Average: 7.7 and 7.2, We observe an increase in satisfaction compared to the previous survey, where we had scores of 7.75 and 6.5, respectively. Therefore, Xerneas ban has brought more stability and enjoyment to the metagame.
Now, the focus shifts to specific cases. It is important to note that a rating of 1 indicates a situation where no tiering action is required, while a rating of 10 suggests immediate action. Total votes are displayed in blue, while qualified ones are shown in green.

Terastallization
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  • Average: 6 and 5.6 for what regards Terastallization. This is the highest number reached in this survey, indicating that the player base still has concerns about Terastallization, with Zygarde-Complete and Zacian-Crowned being the most prominent abusers of this mechanic.

Zygarde-Complete

:sv/Zygarde-Complete:
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  • Average: 4.74 and 3.9. The playerbase appears to accept Zygarde's presence in the meta. No action will be taken towards Zygarde, especially considering its role in checking many threats in the current metagame.

Zacian-Crowned
:sv/zacian-Crowned:
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  • Average: 4.77 and 4.1. The results for Zacian-C are close to those of Zygarde-C for both general and qualified users. Therefore, no action is currently required.
Shadow Tag
:sv/Gothitelle:

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  • Average: 5 and 5.6. Several concerns have been raised after Koraidon ban regarding the impact of Shadow Tag on the metagame, with Gothitelle representing the primary user. The qualified votes indicate show some discontent toward what is considered unhealthy in several metagames. With Terastallization currently being the main target under consideration, Shadow Tag represents the next concern on the list.


Given the results of the survey, we encourage everyone to discuss Terastallization in the metagame thread here.

As a final comment, Last Respect was mentioned three times as feedback from users. Although it's not currently considered ban-worthy, the council will be keeping an eye on it in the future.


If you have any questions feel free to ask in the National Dex Ubers discord here, or PM me or Bobsican.
 
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- The metagame resources have been divided into their own threads to ease readability, more specifically the Sample Teams, the Teambuilding Compedium, the Speed Tiers, and the Good Cores, the last one potentially being new to some as it was previously hosted in the NDAM subforum.

- Gen 8 National Dex Ubers is now a part of the subforum, feel free to discuss it in the recently-made Metagame Discussion thread, or try out the Kickoff tournament for it, whose sign-ups are closing soon!
 
Survey results

Thanks again to everyone who participated in the survey! We received a total of 23 votes with 13 people that reached the threshold to be eligible as qualified voters. We will also compare the average results of this survey (red color) with the previous one here (blue color).

Here are the results, with values ranging from 1 to 10, representing low and high satisfaction respectively.

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  • Average: 7.7->7.74 and 7.2->7.26 The stability and enjoyment of the metagame appear to have remained constant since the last survey.


    In the following 1 indicates a situation where no tiering action is required, while a rating of 10 suggests immediate action. We include both the total votes and only the qualified ones, with the latter indicated as "QUAL."

Terastallization
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  • Average: 6->6.34 and QUAL. 5.6->5.85 for what regards Terastallization, with an increase of 0.2 in total votes, which represents the highest number reached in this survey.
Zygarde-Complete

:sv/Zygarde-Complete:
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  • Average: 4.74-> 5.61 and QUAL. 3.9-> 5.53 . We notice a large increase in Zygarde values for what regards both total and qualified voters.

Zacian-Crowned
:sv/zacian-Crowned:

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  • Average: 4.77->4.65 and QUAL. 4.1->5.08 . As with the Zygarde-C case, we notice a slighlty increase in demand for tiering action towards Zacian-C for what concerns qualified voters.

Shadow Tag
:sv/Gothitelle:
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  • Average: 5->5.22 and QUAL. 5.6->5.61. Concerns about Shadow Tag remain almost unchanged. Combined with the fact that Gothitelle, the primary Shadow Tag user, saw almost no usage in NDPL, this results in no planned tiering action at the moment for Shadow Tag.
Last respect
:sv/Basculegion:
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  • Average: 5.17 and QUAL. 5.08. After being nominated in the last survey, Last Respects makes its first appearance here with lower numbers than in previous cases in this survey. As such, no action will be taken towards Last Respects.
Given the results of the survey, we encourage everyone to discuss Terastallization and Zygarde-C in the metagame thread here.



If you have any questions feel free to ask in the National Dex Ubers discord here, or PM me or Bobsican.
 
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This is the first survey for Gen 8 ND Ubers, thanks for everyone who answered. There were 11 voters in total, of which only 5 ended up as qualified voters based on merely having at least one verifiable non-act round win in the Kickoff Tournament. Without further to add, let's begin.

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General average: 6.9 (enjoyability) and 6.18 (competitiveness and balance)
Qualified average: 9.25 (enjoyability) and 8 (competitiveness and balance)

There's an large gap between the thoughts shared on the metagame by the general voters and qualified voters. In any case the rather low reception on the metagame can be attributed to the early stage and development of it, which hopefully will be improved in the near future.

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General average: 4.63 (:necrozma-ultra:Ultra Necrozma), 4.81 (:xerneas:Xerneas), and 5.09 (:gothitelle:Shadow Tag)
Qualified average: 6.5 (:necrozma-ultra:Ultra Necrozma), 6.5 (:xerneas:Xerneas), and 7.0 (:gothitelle:Shadow Tag)

The general voters don't seem to have strong concerns on average for anything in the tier beyond near-neutrality to the cases above brought into question, but the qualified voters have significant concerns for Ultra Necrozma, Xerneas, and especially Shadow Tag, some tiering action is possible in the near future.

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General average: 2.9 (:calyrex-shadow:Calyrex-S) and 3.18 (:zacian:Zacian)
Qualified average: 4.0 (:calyrex-shadow:Calyrex-S) and 4.0 (:zacian:Zacian)

It's nearly generally agreed between both the qualified and especially the general voters that :zacian:Zacian and :calyrex-shadow:Calyrex-S are not desired for a reintroduction to the metagame. As such there won't be any plans for a suspect test to drop either.

Given the results of the survey I recommend everyone to discuss about :gothitelle:Shadow Tag, :necrozma-ultra:Ultra Necrozma, and :xerneas:Xerneas in the metagame discussion thread!

If you have any questions feel free to ask in the National Dex Ubers Discord here, or PM Bobsican.
 
Okay, because of the small userbase and lack of a ladder for Gen 8 ND Ubers, following the survey an internal vote with the council has been done:

BobsicanSamiSenhorolho
Shadow TagBANBANBAN
Ultranecrozium ZBANBANBAN
XerneasDo Not BanDo Not BanDo Not Ban

As such, :ultranecrozium Z:Ultranecrozium Z and :gothitelle::wobbuffet:Shadow Tag are now banned from Gen 8 ND Ubers!
Feel free to discuss the results in the metagame discussion thread!

If you have any questions feel free to ask in the National Dex Ubers Discord here, or PM Bobsican.
 
There's a new survey to see what everyone thinks of the current metagame and if any changes are desired!

For this one there's going to be a blurb of text that everyone ideally should read before voting:

It's heavily recommended to read all of the contents of the following boxes to have an informed opinion when voting, shoutouts to bumboclaat for helping on writing them.

:pmd/zacian-crowned:
Zacian-C is a mainstay on tiering surveys and has continually received high enough scores to merit inclusion. Zacian-C’s Speed and power in conjunction with serviceable bulk and a stellar defensive typing often makes it one of the biggest threats many offense structures – especially those which opt for Extreme Killer Arceus over Dragon Dance Arceus-Ground.

Most bulky offense and balance structures have the tools to defensively check Zacian-C so long as it is respected in the teambuilder. Importantly, this process happens relatively passively as Primal Groudon + a Ground-immune check is often sufficient. Often, as Zacian-C’s set variety, albeit minor, can drastically change what constitutes counterplay. This is most often Tera Blast Ground to blow past Primal Groudon, but whether Zacian-C is using Behemoth Blade or Play Rough can also have a significant impact. For example, Tera Water Zygarde is pressured to Terastallize regardless while Tera Fairy Zygarde must play a guessing game.

Additionally, common counterplay such as Primal Groudon’s Overheat and Ho-Oh’s Sacred Fire are not fully accurate. These attacks can and will miss, likely swinging the outcome of a game as these teams will be unable to handle a healthy +3 Zacian-C afterwards. This is relatively minor in the grand scheme of things, but worth mentioning.

:pmd/zygarde-complete:
Zygarde has accompanied Zacian-C on every tiering survey and has received high enough scores to merit continued inclusion. Notably, Zygarde has always been viewed as more problematic amongst general respondents than qualified ones. Regardless of your views on Zygarde, everyone at some point or another has probably complained about the threat of Paralysis it brings. Unlike Ultra Necrozma or Zacian-C, Zygarde predominantly uses two sets: Coil and Dragon Dance. The trapper set does exist but is rare due to substantial consistency issues alongside its opportunity cost and is not a factor in Zygarde’s inclusion.

Until relatively recently, Zygarde near exclusively sported its Coil set. Coil Zygarde can certainly be frustrating to face, but every archetype has ample means to contain it without much hassle and should not be sweeping any well-built team at preview. Zygarde’s low Speed makes it vulnerable to Taunt users in Yveltal and various Arceus formes. Zygarde’s mediocre Special Defence makes it prone to getting overwhelmed by most special attackers and investing to handle some of them means Zygarde struggles with physical attackers such as Swords Dance Primal Groudon and Zacian-C. Zygarde’s underwhelming damage output before accumulating multiple boosts leaves it prone to phasing, and its reliance on Rest leaves it quite vulnerable during these turns. Lastly, although Zygarde is the premier physical wall, it is by no means infallible as Tera Normal Arceus’s +2 Silk Scarf Double-Edge and Ultra Necrozma both OHKO. While Zygarde can utilize Terastallization to help with some of its counterplay, most of it is indifferent to whether Zygarde is Tera Fairy or Tera Water.

However, Coil is just one of two sets. Dragon Dance Zygarde mostly existed as a set on the strategy dex and started seeing use last spring. A new set taking the metagame by storm is nothing new, but the efficacy in which Dragon Dance Zygarde ripped through unprepared teams raised some eyebrows and resulted in even Zygarde’s staunchest defenders questioning whether it’s healthy for the tier. Dragon Dance Zygarde’s power stems from its ability to beat much of the common counterplay to Coil Zygarde as +1 Thousand Arrows is deceptively powerful, as when powered up by Tera Ground it 2HKOes even Arceus formes. Furthermore, Dragon Dance Zygarde can deny phasing attempts from previously solid checks such as defensive Ho-Oh with Dragon Tail while keeping itself safe from status with Substitute.

Dragon Dance Zygarde may be powerful, but this comes at a significant price. To obtain this power Zygarde must forgo nearly all semblance of defensive utility. The result is that despite the significant threat it poses, Dragon Dance Zygarde is immensely difficult to safely get onto the field except against incredibly passive teams. For example, switching into Primal Groudon’s uninvested Precipice Blades effectively leaves Zygarde unable to threaten much of anything. Furthermore, while Dragon Dance Zygarde is able to muscle through many of Coil Zygarde’s checks such as specially offensive Yveltal and Taunt Arceus formes, its frailty and low initial Speed means it is unable to setup on them and can only win the exchange if it Dragon Dances as they enter the field.

As time has progressed this price is one that most teams have realized they cannot afford to pay without accepting a slew of problematic matchups such as Primal Groudon and Marshadow. As threatening as Dragon Dance Zygarde is offensively, the defensive value of Coil Zygarde is what makes many balance teams usable to begin with. However, just because Dragon Dance Zygarde is less common nowadays, does not mean that teams are able to ignore it. The primary method of doing so is via offensive pressure as Zygarde is near wholly reliant on getting that free boost to become a proper threat. Offensive teams are not wholly insulated from Dragon Dance Zygarde as Perish Song has become a staple on Smeargle as Sticky Web teams otherwise risk getting swept from the lead.

The metagame has trended towards a more proactive approach, even amongst bulkier teams. This isn’t solely a response to Zygarde, but it is a factor. However, defensive counterplay to Dragon Dance Zygarde is relatively limited. Stall has never had any issues with Zygarde due to Tera Fairy Dondozo, but balance and bulky offense teams have had to adapt. This has primarily been through a shift to Tera Fairy on Coil Zygarde as it is the only splashable defensive counterplay. Tera Fairy does have some other benefits such as against Arceus-Dark and wallbreaker Eternatus, but its primary benefit is countering Dragon Dance Zygarde as it turns flips the script and turns it into setup fodder unable to phaze the check with Dragon Tail. While other options exist, such as Tera Fairy Garganacl, the constraints they impose in the teambuilder render them niche options that do not fit on many teams.

Dragon Dance Zygarde is nowhere near its peak during the summer but is still something most teams need to actively account for. The limited defensive options available outside of Tera Fairy Coil Zygarde are concerning, but at the same time, this is a shift in a Tera type rather than requiring entire playstyles to reinvent themselves. Dragon Dance Zygarde may be powerful, but proactive building and play have shown to heavily limit its ability to reach its potential.

As a final note, a suspect would target specifically Power Construct. Per tiering policy it has been agreed on by the council to focus potential tiering action in this manner as it has been deemed more effective for the health of the metagame over the alternative of doing tiering action on Zygarde-50%, as Zygarde-10% with Power Construct is more problematic than Aura Break Zygarde-50%.

:pmd/necrozma-ultra:
This is Ultra Necrozma’s first time on a survey and may come as a surprise to outside observers, especially given its poor performance in tournament play recently. Ubers embraces a level of centralization deemed unacceptable in other tiers, but Ultra Necrozma tests even this level of tolerance. Ultra Necrozma does have its counters – in fact Ultra Necrozma’s best counterplay in Arceus-Dark, Marshadow, and Yveltal have seen cumulative use exceeding 100%. The concern is the lack of counterplay, and more specifically, the inconsistency of soft counterplay. Ultra Necrozma has earned a spot on the survey due to concerns over that its restrictive nature in the teambuilder creates an unhealthy dynamic in the tier.

The moment teams deviate away from counters to a series of soft checks, they become incredibly vulnerable to Ultra Necrozma as most of these soft checks require conditions that really stretch this definition. These soft checks are mostly Pokémon that can threaten Ultra Necrozma while being able to afford to run Tera Dark such as Arceus-Fairy, Eternatus, and Ho-Oh. Arceus-Fairy and Eternatus are reliant on teammates luring Necrozma-DM to Ultra Burst, which often involves a sacrifice as they’re unable to meaningfully damage Necrozma-DM. Furthermore, Eternatus can only fit Tera Dark on defensive sets which have seen a significant decline outside of stall. Ho-Oh can slot Tera Dark but benefits substantially more from most other Tera types as Tera Dark has little benefit outside of this matchup save for the uncommon Psyspam. Alomomola and Fezandipiti can fit Tera Dark to serve as emergency checks but can rarely afford to Terastallize against Ultra Necrozma outside of end-game scenarios out of the opportunity cost and the reliance of their innate typings outside this matchup.

The inconsistency of soft counterplay has resulted in most players opting for counters as Ultra Necrozma’s ability to end the game after a boost is unparalleled as its Speed forces to be answered with priority or defensively. Additionally, even Ultra Necrozma’s ‘counters’ handle it by the slimmest of margins. The list of viable defensive counters is arguably just Arceus-Dark as defensive Yveltal cannot switch into Stone Edge. Even Calm Mind Arceus-Dark is likely to be 2HKOed by +1 Earthquake after Stealth Rock while its Judgment is unlikely to OHKO. While this is often sufficient, this is much closer to a hard check than a counter. Defensive Arceus-Dark is a counter but has nearly disappeared from the metagame outside of stall due to how easily it is exploited.

It is similarly bleak offensively. Although Extreme Killer Arceus requires a significant amount of chip, Ultra Necrozma often takes enough damage setting up to find itself in range. Extreme Killer Arceus only fits on hyper offense though, so what are the options for other archetypes? Specially offensive Yveltal is forced to get lucky with a Sucker Punch mind game and requires chip or Tera Dark as it is either a coinflip to OHKO or simply 2HKOes if Ultra Necrozma opts for the bulkier spread. Chien-Pao is in a similar but is even more harshly punished as losing the Sucker Punch mind game means a teammate has to be sacked before it can try again. It also isn’t enough to say Marshadow as Ultra Necrozma survives Life Orb Tera Ghost Shadow Sneak. For Marshadow to consistently revenge kill Ultra Necrozma, it must be Choice Band and willing to Tera Ghost as Ultra Necrozma survives Choice Band Shadow Sneak after a layer of Spikes.

Ultra Necrozma isn’t the sole reason these Pokémon are used as they are all fantastic regardless, but swiftness with which it can end games is a factor. The clearest example of this isn’t seen in tournament or ladder play, but in the sample teams. The council has finished voting but opted to delay it as we realized that we had 8 Arceus-Dark teams, a single one with Arceus-Fairy, and none with Arceus-Ground – a stark reminder of Ultra Necrozma’s effect in the teambuilder.

:pmd/shuckle::pmd/smeargle::pmd/yveltal:
We are surveying Sticky Web itself as opposed individual potentially problematic elements such as Smeargle and Yveltal to potentially avoid multiple suspect tests on the same topic. Sticky Web structures have demonstrated a level of consistency and potency far beyond its typical reputation of cheese. Rather, Sticky Web has established itself as the dominant hyper offense archetype to a degree where it can often be difficult to justify running anything else. When Sticky Web reach a certain level of viability and consistency, it has a questionable effect on the health of the metagame as a whole.

Anyone with cursory experience with ND Ubers is likely aware of the dominance of Sticky Web structures since Xerneas’s ban given their ubiquity and strength in both ladder and tournament play. As time has progressed, Sticky Web has seen significant optimizations which has resulted in a transition from a decent, albeit fishy archetype to a consistent one which has seen significant use and success in both tournament and ladder settings for quite some time.

For example, specially offensive Yveltal has become mandatory due to its efficacy at maintaining Sticky Web. The discovery of Tera Fire, sometimes accompanied by Heat Wave, has enabled it to easily dispatch Arceus-Fairy, normally a counter, and flip the script on Zacian-C. Ultra Necrozma has been phased out in favour of Chi-Yu to plow through bulkier balances and stalls that previously gave Sticky Web structures headaches while helping to maintain them with a speedy Taunt. Smeargle has emerged as the dominant setter as its support movepool makes it incredibly difficult to punish. Taunt users in Arceus formes and Yveltal generally cannot afford to absorb Nuzzle as it hinders them for the remainder of the game. Additionally, as Smeargle’s Focus Sash remains intact, it can often find an opportunity later in the game to set Sticky Web as its serviceable Speed enables it to outpace most defensive Pokémon, including the now paralyzed Taunt user. Furthermore, Smeargle is rarely punished for deviating from its standard set of Perish Song, Nuzzle, and Mortal or Rapid Spin. Both Rapid Spin and Mortal Spin being viable turns opposing hyper offense leads attempting to block entry hazard removal by Terastallizing into an incredibly risky gamble.

Sticky Web structures can support a variety of threats, but all that is truly necessary is the setter and Yveltal. Yveltal is ruthlessly effective at maintaining Sticky Web. Choice Scarf Yveltal can always remove Sticky Web, but only fits on select offenses. Additionally, Icy Wind Fezandipiti enables easy removal of Sticky Web. Offensive Ho-Oh can do so but is fairly inconsistent. Giratina-O and defensive Ho-Oh structures find it near impossible to do so.


Do you think any of these Pokémon or mechanics are an unhealthy presence in the metagame, that people just unecessarily complain too much, or somewhere in between? Either way, let us know in the Metagame Discussion thread!
This survey closes sometime in March 24th.

Qualified voters have more impact than normal voters on the metagame's future, so votes from the following users will be extremely appreciated.

Got in the Round 5 or higher of the ND Ubers Winter Seasonal:

emoxu9
realaccountami?
Zrp200
Cancel cult
entrocefalo
Jojen
Eledyr
Flames Of Elixir
Legendary spam
churrojr
Dugtrio Is Broken
velvet
The White Room
HNHY
Squeeby
Xurkiyee

Won at least 1 game in the NDBD for the ND Ubers slot:

MirrorSaMa
entrocefalo
unfuuny (aka, BananaTimeZ)
bumboclaat
LORD SAGIS
rarh2
pannu
Sami
awyp
Marss Barss
skimmythegod
Bobsican
veti
 
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