BH National Dex Balanced Hackmons

[TheDoodleStudios]

We've all seen Zacian paired with Pixilate for Population Bomb to do STAB damage and have 1.2x power, but what about other mons?

Calyrex-Ice @ Wide Lens
Ability: Refrigerate
Tera Type: Ice/Fire/Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Population Bomb
- Extreme Speed
- Heal Order
- Headlong Rush/Knock Off

or better yet...

Salamence-Mega @ Wide Lens
Ability: Aerilate
Tera Type: Flying/Fairy/Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Population Bomb
- Hyper Voice/Extreme Speed
- Draco Meteor/Knock Off
- Heal Order

and here's another one

Zekrom @ Wide Lens
Ability: Galvanize
Tera Type: Electric/Dragon/Fairy/Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Population Bomb
- Extreme Speed/Double Edge
- Dragon Claw/Knock Off/Parting Shot
- Heal Order

I've tried these out and all of them seem to work just fine, so feel free to use them! :D

(les go first post :D)

 

[Iradium]

Calyrex-Ice @ Wide Lens
Ability: Refrigerate
Tera Type: Ice/Fire/Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Population Bomb
- Extreme Speed
- Heal Order
- Headlong Rush/Knock Off

Kyurem B would probably be a better abuser of it given the higher attack and speed. I imagine the idea would pair well with any of them to some extent, but the reason that ZacianC abuses it so well is because it's typing is probably the best in the game and it's stats are just as obscene, whereas the likes of Kyurem, Zekrom, etc. can't really compete with that.

 

[dtc09]

We've all seen Zacian paired with Pixilate for Population Bomb to do STAB damage and have 1.2x power, but what about other mons?

Calyrex-Ice @ Wide Lens
Ability: Refrigerate
Tera Type: Ice/Fire/Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Population Bomb
- Extreme Speed
- Heal Order
- Headlong Rush/Knock Off

or better yet...

Salamence-Mega @ Wide Lens
Ability: Aerilate
Tera Type: Flying/Fairy/Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Population Bomb
- Hyper Voice/Extreme Speed
- Draco Meteor/Knock Off
- Heal Order

and here's another one

Zekrom @ Wide Lens
Ability: Galvanize
Tera Type: Electric/Dragon/Fairy/Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Population Bomb
- Extreme Speed/Double Edge
- Dragon Claw/Knock Off/Parting Shot
- Heal Order

I've tried these out and all of them seem to work just fine, so feel free to use them! :D

(les go first post :D)

considering one of-ate users' best things is their rapid spin that should be a priority on them. calyI doesn't look too good as despite beating fc zygarde it does nothing to waters and has to click headlong on switch to not be zacian food, plus it's the slowest thing ever (being outsped by pdon isn't exactly fun). mence also suffers from being zacian food, having alright mixed stats for fcs is cool at least though. as for zek, nice for waters but pdon walls you and like the others you're too slow without espeed/spin. the good thing about pixi zac is that it's able to compress hazard removal, good defensive utility and it's a powerful attacker itself, the only one with real defensive utility there is mmence which can soft check non-glance pdon.

anyway, anyone who actually hits seed flares can try this thing out:



Mewtwo-Mega-Y @ Choice Specs
Ability: Protean
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seed Flare
- Astral Barrage
- Trick
- Lumina Crash

beat ting and hax past non-dialga scalers with seed flare (especially if they're other darks, as they normally don't need cloak) while spamming astral for everything else. however, i haven't hit a single seed flare yet (not joking) so anyone who actually hits them try it out

 

[anaconja]

anyway, anyone who actually hits seed flares can try this thing out:



Mewtwo-Mega-Y @ Choice Specs
Ability: Protean
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seed Flare
- Astral Barrage
- Trick
- Lumina Crash

beat ting and hax past non-dialga scalers with seed flare (especially if they're other darks, as they normally don't need cloak) while spamming astral for everything else. however, i haven't hit a single seed flare yet (not joking) so anyone who actually hits them try it out

i think tinglu is actually kinda mid - it competes a lot with zyg both being ground types weak to ice, but zyg has better bulk. have a feeling it wont rank so hot in the vr. meanwhile dialga being super good and most scales mons having cloak means that idt that set is gonna do v well

i have a different mmy set that theoretically sounds incredible but is an absolute struggle to improof without using something too unviable so im posing it for those who want to attempt

How? (Mewtwo-Mega-Y) @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty / Naive Nature
- Lumina Crash
- Light of Ruin
- Knock Off
- High Jump Kick

on paper it sounds good as long as you get free turns spamming crash, plus you hit like everything that resists it. i improofed it with i forgor (Zacian-Crowned) with covert cloak ice scales and amnesia but that was a ridiculously silly team

 

[TheDoodleStudios]

I've been noticing a lack of weather setters, so imma make a post about them! :D

Sun Sweeper

Ceruledge @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Orichalcum Pulse
Tera Type: Grass/Dark/Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Victory Dance/Tidy Up
- Sacred Fire
- Bitter Blade
- Shadow Sneak

This set abuses the power of Orichalcum Pulse (sets up the sun and boosts the Atk stat) to set-up (with either Victory Dance or Tidy Up) and sweep.
Sacred Fire to scare away other Physical attackers (e.g. Zacian, Palafin, Arceus, etc), and Bitter Blade to heal back up to health.

Pros: Deals with fire-weak mons easily.
A really good wall breaker.

Cons: REALLY fragile to almost any "super-effective" moves
Is weak to Special Attackers.
Really weak to rain.


Drizzle and Swift Swim

First off, we have our rain setter!

Ferrothorn @ Damp Rock
Ability: Drizzle
Tera Type: Grass/Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Bold Nature/Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Revival Blessing
- Wish
- Parting Shot/Knock Off
- Stealth Rock/Spikes

Ferrothorn's job is to set up rain, then either switch out with Parting Shot or set up hazards.
I chose Ferrothorn because it's normally tanky, and most mons will have a problem taking it out.

Next, we have our rain abuser!

Dracovish @ Choice Band
Ability: Swift Swim
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fishious Rend
- Glacial Lance/Headlong Rush
- Wave Crash/Aqua Jet/Jet Punch
- Close Combat/Superpower

Dracovish does... well... If you used a Dracovish before, I think you already know what it does
I chose Dracovish because it gains STAB attacks from Fishious Rend. I know I could use Palafin-Hero to do the same, but Dracovish is a bit more bulky than Palafin.
If you want to use Palafin, be my guest.

Ok, that's all I have to say.
So seeya tomorrow guys! :D

 

[dtc09]

i think tinglu is actually kinda mid - it competes a lot with zyg both being ground types weak to ice, but zyg has better bulk. have a feeling it wont rank so hot in the vr. meanwhile dialga being super good and most scales mons having cloak means that idt that set is gonna do v well

i have a different mmy set that theoretically sounds incredible but is an absolute struggle to improof without using something too unviable so im posing it for those who want to attempt

How? (Mewtwo-Mega-Y) @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty / Naive Nature
- Lumina Crash
- Light of Ruin
- Knock Off
- High Jump Kick

on paper it sounds good as long as you get free turns spamming crash, plus you hit like everything that resists it. i improofed it with i forgor (Zacian-Crowned) with covert cloak ice scales and amnesia but that was a ridiculously silly team

reminds me from this dude



Mewtwo-Mega-Y @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Freezing Glare
- Blue Flare
- Ice Beam
- Axe Kick

beats most common mmy checks, axe kick can ohko dialga after a layer of spikes and overall kills spdef darks/steels (though it's kinda risky defensive ghosts aren't too good rn as gira's passive af, lunala isn't as splashable as waters and dusclops wouldn't be used by any self-respecting player), ice beam beats zygarde and blue flare catches zacian. improofed by psea zac/mega slowbro.

I've been noticing a lack of weather setters, so imma make a post about them! :D

Sun Sweeper

Ceruledge @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Orichalcum Pulse
Tera Type: Grass/Dark/Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Victory Dance/Tidy Up
- Sacred Fire
- Bitter Blade
- Shadow Sneak

This set abuses the power of Orichalcum Pulse (sets up the sun and boosts the Atk stat) to set-up (with either Victory Dance or Tidy Up) and sweep.
Sacred Fire to scare away other Physical attackers (e.g. Zacian, Palafin, Arceus, etc), and Bitter Blade to heal back up to health.

Pros: Deals with fire-weak mons easily.
A really good wall breaker.

Cons: REALLY fragile to almost any "super-effective" moves
Is weak to Special Attackers.
Really weak to rain.


Drizzle and Swift Swim

First off, we have our rain setter!

Ferrothorn @ Damp Rock
Ability: Drizzle
Tera Type: Grass/Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Bold Nature/Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Revival Blessing
- Wish
- Parting Shot/Knock Off
- Stealth Rock/Spikes

Ferrothorn's job is to set up rain, then either switch out with Parting Shot or set up hazards.
I chose Ferrothorn because it's normally tanky, and most mons will have a problem taking it out.

Next, we have our rain abuser!

Dracovish @ Choice Band
Ability: Swift Swim
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fishious Rend
- Glacial Lance/Headlong Rush
- Wave Crash/Aqua Jet/Jet Punch
- Close Combat/Superpower

Dracovish does... well... If you used a Dracovish before, I think you already know what it does
I chose Dracovish because it gains STAB attacks from Fishious Rend. I know I could use Palafin-Hero to do the same, but Dracovish is a bit more bulky than Palafin.
If you want to use Palafin, be my guest.

Ok, that's all I have to say.
So seeya tomorrow guys! :D

first of all, ferro's revival blessing is banned so you can't use that set. ceruledge is just not good, it has bad stats and gets totally screwed by most fur coaters to waterceus to zygarde to mbro. mega blaziken's generally better as it can be an unholy nuke with sgear/vc/orchialcum, though it still hates the aforementioned fcs which makes it kinda eh imo. as for vish, just use the much faster and stronger barraskewda for a non-swift swimmer, or if you want a swift swim user palkia/palafin (extra bulk doesn't matter because you have no real defensive utility anyway)

 

[TheDoodleStudios]

first of all, ferro's revival blessing is banned so you can't use that set. ceruledge is just not good, it has bad stats and gets totally screwed by most fur coaters to waterceus to zygarde to mbro. mega blaziken's generally better as it can be an unholy nuke with sgear/vc/orchialcum, though it still hates the aforementioned fcs which makes it kinda eh imo. as for vish, just use the much faster and stronger barraskewda for a non-swift swimmer, or if you want a swift swim user palkia/palafin (extra bulk doesn't matter because you have no real defensive utility anyway)

lmao completely forgot that revival blessing is banned

 

[Champion Leon]

Hide

feel this this ndw set is done much better by this guy:



Arceus-Ghost @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Speed Boost
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tail Glow
- Judgment
- Secret Sword
- Strength Sap

self-improof without teraing and has a lot more defensive utility, shrugging off knock thanks to its spooky plate being unknockable and having a better matchup vs. regenvest ting-lu thanks to sword. sap's also good for any physical attacker that wants to 1v1 you. great cleaner btw.

Unfortunately, you give up a lot of Power, and the thing I like least about Secret Sword, is that oftentimes the Pokémon it hits super effectively tend to have a higher Def than SpD, so it ends up doing less:

+3 252+ SpA Arceus-Ghost Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Ting-Lu: 326-384 (63.4 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Arceus-Ghost Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Ting-Lu: 132-156 (25.6 - 30.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

It could literally survive and then Spectral Thief, and potentially even survive a second hit.

Compare this to Judgment (Fist Plate), which has almost 50% more base power, hits Steels, Ting-Lu, and many others off their weaker SpD, and allows its move to be less type predictable.

+3 252+ SpA Fist Plate Arceus-Ghost Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Ting-Lu: 376-444 (73.1 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Still deals more on average, even with Assault Vest.

*Obviously you wouldn’t give Ghost Arceus Fist Plate, but my point remains, and is even more relevant on Dawn-Wings Bc the whole goal is to lure in Imposter, and hit off the strongest Ghost SpA sweeper that can Tera (in the metagame).

The other thing is Imposter users wouldn’t bother sending it in against your Arceus Bc it does not lure them in. They know it will have Judgment Spooky Plate.

When you use Dawn-Wings, especially after it uses Astral, they think “I can outspeed their sweeper with my Scarf Imposter, and 1HKO with a 4x effective move”, only to get blocked by a Tera into Normal and then lose their Chansey as they take Astral.

Now they are down 1 Pokémon, and they still don’t know what type your Judgment Plate is bc unlike Arceus, it is definitely not Ghost, but could be something else.

Lastly, Boomburst becomes 210 base power, with absolutely zero drawbacks. It hits most Pokémon harder as a neutral move than many super effective moves, and you still keep STAB on Ghost moves.

Judgment Fist Plate is basically like having a STAB Aura Sphere / Secret Sword due to the 1.5X power difference.

The more damage the opponent takes the easier the sweep.

Look at Regigigas:

+3 252+ SpA Fist Plate Arceus-Ghost Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Regigigas: 500-590 (117.9 - 139.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+3 252+ SpA Arceus-Ghost Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Regigigas: 356-420 (83.9 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Zamazenta-Crowned

+3 252+ SpA Fist Plate Arceus-Ghost Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 422-498 (108.7 - 128.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+3 252+ SpA Arceus-Ghost Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 300-354 (77.3 - 91.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

These Pokemon commonly carry Spectral Thief, and because no one expects Fist Plate since Judgement is less predictable, they would be willing to send them in against Dawn-Wings assuming that it would use the much weaker Secret Sword and survive.

Wrong! Judgement even on Arceus is strong enough to 1HKO them, and that makes it obvious the higher SpA Dawn Wings functions as a great lure to the very Pokemon it sweeps.

I don’t want to risk Spectral Thief, Bc if I have to block Spectral Thief by Tera in Normal, I risk taking damage from their Normal and Fighting STAB moves. I like to save Tera only for Imposter, or if I absolutely need STAB on Boomburst for bigger damage than Astral.

This allows me to 1HKO the 2nd biggest wall in the game…

+3 252 SpA Necrozma-Dawn-Wings Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 535-631 (84.1 - 99.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

(As a Normal Type after Tera).

 

[dtc09]

Unfortunately, you give up a lot of Power, and the thing I like least about Secret Sword, is that oftentimes the Pokémon it hits super effectively tend to have a higher Def than SpD, so it ends up doing less:

+3 252+ SpA Arceus-Ghost Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Ting-Lu: 326-384 (63.4 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Arceus-Ghost Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Ting-Lu: 132-156 (25.6 - 30.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

It could literally survive and then Spectral Thief, and potentially even survive a second hit.

Compare this to Judgment (Fist Plate), which has almost 50% more base power, hits Steels, Ting-Lu, and many others off their weaker SpD, and allows its move to be less type predictable.

+3 252+ SpA Fist Plate Arceus-Ghost Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Ting-Lu: 376-444 (73.1 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Still deals more on average, even with Assault Vest.

*Obviously you wouldn’t give Ghost Arceus Fist Plate, but my point remains, and is even more relevant on Dawn-Wings Bc the whole goal is to lure in Imposter, and hit off the strongest Ghost SpA sweeper that can Tera (in the metagame).

The other thing is Imposter users wouldn’t bother sending it in against your Arceus Bc it does not lure them in. They know it will have Judgment Spooky Plate.

When you use Dawn-Wings, especially after it uses Astral, they think “I can outspeed their sweeper with my Scarf Imposter, and 1HKO with a 4x effective move”, only to get blocked by a Tera into Normal and then lose their Chansey as they take Astral.

Now they are down 1 Pokémon, and they still don’t know what type your Judgment Plate is bc unlike Arceus, it is definitely not Ghost, but could be something else.

Lastly, Boomburst becomes 210 base power, with absolutely zero drawbacks. It hits most Pokémon harder as a neutral move than many super effective moves, and you still keep STAB on Ghost moves.

Judgment Fist Plate is basically like having a STAB Aura Sphere / Secret Sword due to the 1.5X power difference.

The more damage the opponent takes the easier the sweep.

Look at Regigigas:

+3 252+ SpA Fist Plate Arceus-Ghost Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Regigigas: 500-590 (117.9 - 139.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+3 252+ SpA Arceus-Ghost Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Regigigas: 356-420 (83.9 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Zamazenta-Crowned

+3 252+ SpA Fist Plate Arceus-Ghost Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 422-498 (108.7 - 128.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+3 252+ SpA Arceus-Ghost Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 300-354 (77.3 - 91.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

These Pokemon commonly carry Spectral Thief, and because no one expects Fist Plate since Judgement is less predictable, they would be willing to send them in against Dawn-Wings assuming that it would use the much weaker Secret Sword and survive.

Wrong! Judgement even on Arceus is strong enough to 1HKO them, and that makes it obvious the higher SpA Dawn Wings functions as a great lure to the very Pokemon it sweeps.

I don’t want to risk Spectral Thief, Bc if I have to block Spectral Thief by Tera in Normal, I risk taking damage from their Normal and Fighting STAB moves. I like to save Tera only for Imposter, or if I absolutely need STAB on Boomburst for bigger damage than Astral.

This allows me to 1HKO the 2nd biggest wall in the game…

+3 252 SpA Necrozma-Dawn-Wings Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 535-631 (84.1 - 99.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

(As a Normal Type after Tera).

ndw does have a better matchup against normals but that's pretty much it, not having to moveslots for sap means your longevity's eh, you lack setup opportunities because you're terrified of both spectral and knock, which can be on any random wall, and even if you tera normal to dodge spectral ndw suffers from being predictable prank food as much as ghostceus because all its usable sets are setup sets, so the opponent can just prank haze and you wasted your tera.

i'd also say simple no retreat is a better set, you get to +2 on speed after a single turn to run modest and be faster than the entire unboosted meta and you can outright OHKO scalers not called ting-lu (which is also OHKOed after a single layer of spikes) with +2 collision course and stored power can do ridiculous feats such as this:

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Necrozma-Dawn-Wings Stored Power (220 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Zygarde-Complete: 586-691 (92.1 - 108.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO (guaranteed after a layer)

and can also use tera normal to self-improof:

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Tera Normal Necrozma-Dawn-Wings Astral Barrage vs. +3 252 HP / 252- SpD Necrozma-Dawn-Wings (eviolite imp): 769-910 (109.2 - 129.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Necrozma-Dawn-Wings (imposter) Collision Course (133.3251953125 BP) vs. +2 252 HP / 252 Def Tera Normal Necrozma-Dawn-Wings: 196-232 (49.2 - 58.2%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO

and as for the viable normals, gigas isn't nearly as popular as it was in ctbh (plus not every gigas has spectral), normalceus is mid, mkanga is more of a gimmick than anything (and doesn't live sword anyway) and fc chansey tts both anyway (and isn't too good either). and zama not only is kinda bad rn but only scales zama survives a +3 tera ghost judge. plus now that you posted it fist plate judge is known to the world lel

 

[Champion Leon]

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ndw does have a better matchup against normals but that's pretty much it, not having to moveslots for sap means your longevity's eh, you lack setup opportunities because you're terrified of both spectral and knock, which can be on any random wall, and even if you tera normal to dodge spectral ndw suffers from being predictable prank food as much as ghostceus because all its usable sets are setup sets, so the opponent can just prank haze and you wasted your tera.

i'd also say simple no retreat is a better set, you get to +2 on speed after a single turn to run modest and be faster than the entire unboosted meta and you can outright OHKO scalers not called ting-lu (which is also OHKOed after a single layer of spikes) with +2 collision course and stored power can do ridiculous feats such as this:

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Necrozma-Dawn-Wings Stored Power (220 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Zygarde-Complete: 586-691 (92.1 - 108.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO (guaranteed after a layer)

and can also use tera normal to self-improof:

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Tera Normal Necrozma-Dawn-Wings Astral Barrage vs. +3 252 HP / 252- SpD Necrozma-Dawn-Wings (eviolite imp): 769-910 (109.2 - 129.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Necrozma-Dawn-Wings (imposter) Collision Course (133.3251953125 BP) vs. +2 252 HP / 252 Def Tera Normal Necrozma-Dawn-Wings: 196-232 (49.2 - 58.2%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO

and as for the viable normals, gigas isn't nearly as popular as it was in ctbh (plus not every gigas has spectral), normalceus is mid, mkanga is more of a gimmick than anything (and doesn't live sword anyway) and fc chansey tts both anyway (and isn't too good either). and zama not only is kinda bad rn but only scales zama survives a +3 tera ghost judge. plus now that you posted it fist plate judge is known to the world lel

I think your point on Haze / Prankster is the reason I don’t bother with Stored Power.

I feel like the other issue is with No Retreat, Bc if they Haze you, you cannot set up again until you switch out.

Speed Boost is nice Bc even if they Haze you, sometimes they pivot out, Bc they assume you will switch, which allows you to replenish Speed from Speed Boost and set up again.

Also, Collision Course hits off its 44 Base Point weaker Atk stat and if your point is on survivability, then a physical move that needs Life Orb to hit harder, just makes it more susceptible to KO’s after taking the Life Orb recoil damage.

Not to mention what is your Nature lowering? Your set shows -SpDefense.

You don’t want to lower Atk anymore Bc you are mixed, so are you now losing even more survivability due to having to lower a Special Defense.

I guess you could lower Speed, and rely on Simple No Retreat, but either way now the opponent heals more from Strength Sap since you maxed your Attack stat.

The goal isn’t to mix sweep, Dawn Wings doesn’t have the STAB or Atk stat to pull it off.

It barely has enough SpA to pull of its sweeps, but thanks to its typing and having just strong enough moves, it can pull it off thanks to Tail Glow.

The fact you need Life Orb to even hit the same damage levels means it’s more reliant on that and is more afraid of Knock Off.

Stored Power needs boosts, Life Orb has to make up for No Retreat only giving +2, and what coverage move are you using for Dark-types?

You have No Retreat, Astral, Stored Power, and Collision Course? Why not just keep Judgement Plate for a consistent Fighting move off a stronger SpA stat, especially since many weak to Fighting-types are lower in their SpD?

It also has a way better match up against anything that takes super effective damage from Fist Plate Judgment, not just Normal-types, such as Dark-types like Ting Lu:

+3 252 SpA Fist Plate Necrozma-Dawn-Wings Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Ting-Lu: 418-492 (81.3 - 95.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

Arceus doesn’t achieve these numbers, unless it relies on Fishous Rend for strong damage.

To me, your set relies on boosts and items way too much.

What mine does is allow Speed Boost to prevent it from being slower, even after a Haze, Bc it triggers per turn. And then it allows DEN to have stronger damaging moves pre-set up, like Boomburst.

Your set would make more sense on a bulkier Pokémon like Giratina Origin, or Ghost Arceus Bc they block Knock Off when holding their signature items.

DWN seems like it can 1HKO more off my set thanks to Tail Glow boosting harder, and having minimum Attack, which makes opposing Strength Saps weak.

No Retreat traps you if you Tera out of Ghost typing, even if you user No Retreat first. So if you are afraid of Imposter and then Tera into Normal, you are trapped… AND Prankster Hazers can clear your boosts while trapped so you are left useless. Stored Power is forever weak Bc you cannot use No Retreat twice.

Anyways, let’s pivot to something else.

I think we should consider Primal Groudon being suspected.

 

[dtc09]

i really haven't struggled with pdon much, fc zygarde/waters are v good and while solar beam don bypasses waters something like a psea user/worry seed waterceus (yes it's a legit thing that has worked) not only checks that but also traps it and totally deletes it. in return we've got a great zac check that isn't passive at all and that is also a good knock sponge.

honestly the mon i've struggled the most with is deoxys-a, it can run a billion different moves and it can beat about everything while unlike mmy you can't even revenge it with zac. protean rend/astral/headlong/lumina is really hard to impossible to switch into unless you have something like prank yveltal, which dies if it has electro drift.

 

[Chessking345]

We've all seen Zacian paired with Pixilate for Population Bomb to do STAB damage and have 1.2x power, but what about other mons?

Calyrex-Ice @ Wide Lens
Ability: Refrigerate
Tera Type: Ice/Fire/Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Population Bomb
- Extreme Speed
- Heal Order
- Headlong Rush/Knock Off

or better yet...

Salamence-Mega @ Wide Lens
Ability: Aerilate
Tera Type: Flying/Fairy/Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Population Bomb
- Hyper Voice/Extreme Speed
- Draco Meteor/Knock Off
- Heal Order

and here's another one

Zekrom @ Wide Lens
Ability: Galvanize
Tera Type: Electric/Dragon/Fairy/Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Population Bomb
- Extreme Speed/Double Edge
- Dragon Claw/Knock Off/Parting Shot
- Heal Order

I've tried these out and all of them seem to work just fine, so feel free to use them! :D

(les go first post :D)

The problem with Population Bomb is that it requires a lot of work to be good. You need an item or Coil to make sure it actually hits, but you also need Protective Pads to make sure you don't die from a stray Helmet. Meanwhile something basic like Return/Frustration provides a consistent, albeit weaker power while also letting run an utility item, on top of having absurd amounts of PP.
For -ate sets they also typically want to run Rapid Spin, as -ate Spin is unblockable and provides excellent utility, only exception is for pure wallbreaking sets like Specs Diancie.
Aerilate MegaMence is actually a decent set, but it runs Boomburst to nail Primal Groudon after a V-create defense drop.
Galvanize is also not very good, you are better off running Hadron Engine generally to have a far stronger and consistent STAB.

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Thanks for clogging the thread with essays and walls of text for a set that isn't remotely viable.

All these posted Tail Glow sets are plainly not good. The best one posted by far is TG Ghostceus because of the Knock Off immunity, great bulk and mono Ghost typing, but Speed Boost is more of a niche ability, instead it should be a utility ability like Fur Coat or offensively Mold Breaker or something.

Tail Glow Mega Gengar in comparison to all of these, is stronger, doesn't require a dedicated Tera to "self improof" (the lack of ability to Tera doesn't even matter because the Tera here listed isn't even the STAB boost), is naturally faster and thus provides revenge-killing possibilities, and also opens up the ability slot for options like Beads of Ruin for more damage or Mold Breaker to bypass some Ice Scales that lack Ability Shield. Even then, Tail Glow Mega Gengar is far from optimal in the current meta. If you truly wanted a Tail Glow Speed Boost threat that is not Arceus-Ghost, then Lunala is probably your best bet, as it provides a key speed tier to outspeed up to Deoxys-A after a Speed Boost while boasting a Modest Nature.

As for why these sets are not very good, consider that some of the best and most prevalent special walls comfortably eat a hit before retaliating with a Spectral Thief or a Nuzzle or a Knock Off, or similar. Some notable examples include SpD Zygarde-C, Ice Scales Dialga-O, Ice Scales Darkceus (and other Darks like Ting-Lu or Yveltal), Ice Scales Fairyceus, Ice Scales Mega Swampert, and more.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

anyway, anyone who actually hits seed flares can try this thing out:



Mewtwo-Mega-Y @ Choice Specs
Ability: Protean
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seed Flare
- Astral Barrage
- Trick
- Lumina Crash

beat ting and hax past non-dialga scalers with seed flare (especially if they're other darks, as they normally don't need cloak) while spamming astral for everything else. however, i haven't hit a single seed flare yet (not joking) so anyone who actually hits them try it out

If you are Protean Lumina you probably don't want to run Specs as a big selling point for Lumina here is that you don't change type if you use it first, so you can run some other item, use Lumina, and then click a coverage while changing type. Either way I would always run something on MMY to threaten Zyg, in this case it would probably be Fleur Cannon.

Also I think Ting-Lu is average. Ground-typing can be nice for blocking Volt Switch and Hadron users and the absurd physical bulk can really help against Secret Sword which is what Darkceus struggles with sometimes.

reminds me from this dude



Mewtwo-Mega-Y @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Freezing Glare
- Blue Flare
- Ice Beam
- Axe Kick

beats most common mmy checks, axe kick can ohko dialga after a layer of spikes and overall kills spdef darks/steels (though it's kinda risky defensive ghosts aren't too good rn as gira's passive af, lunala isn't as splashable as waters and dusclops wouldn't be used by any self-respecting player), ice beam beats zygarde and blue flare catches zacian. improofed by psea zac/mega slowbro.

This is a cool set. I think the biggest issues with this set is Axe Kick recoil and having to run Blue Flare because otherwise you lose to Lunala so instead you lose to Fire-immune Zac-C. There are so many potential special walls now that its hard to cover for all of them anyways (example this one loses to Scales Fairy). You could consider something like Earth Power over Blue Flare because it hits Zac-C hard enough anyways and maybe running like Seed Flare (or Blue Flare) over STAB to hit stuff like Lunala.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No idea where this "suspect PDon" talk is coming from. PDon is excellent, it provides excellent offensive and defensive utility combined in one package. But on the contrary, no Ice move PDon is forever walled by Zyg, one of the most splashable mons right now; no Ground STAB PDon is annoyed by Imposter and PSea Steels; and no Grass/Electric move PDon is walled by Waterceus and Dondozo. Not even including the numerous amounts of offensive threats that massively threaten PDon with powerful special attacks or Ground coverage.

honestly the mon i've struggled the most with is deoxys-a, it can run a billion different moves and it can beat about everything while unlike mmy you can't even revenge it with zac. protean rend/astral/headlong/lumina is really hard to impossible to switch into unless you have something like prank yveltal, which dies if it has electro drift.

Deo-A is undoubtly scary with its ability to run numerous sets, numerous moves, while retaining the ability to Tera, on top of being very difficult to revenge-kill. The best way to play around it is to use the fact that it can't take hits so you can greatly limit the opportunities it can come in, as the opponent needs to have slow pivoting and chip damage to make sure it hits the OHKO benchmarks.

Couldn’t you just defeat Deoxys-A with a priority user? Or Scarf user?

Unlike Groudon it doesn’t set up so you can outspeed without fear of Shift Gear being faster (like you expect on PDon).

Oblivion Wing sets on Pokémon like Yveltal swiftly KOs it, as does any physical -ate user.

Barring Focus Sash, it is an easy KO. Plus stuff like the Electric Regi can outspeed

Let me just revenge-kill something with priority when priority is rare in the meta and the target runs Psychic Surge extremely often, or use an item thats completely unviable in the meta, or use a meme mon who has no purpose in the meta and is outclassed by Miraidon.

Kickoff tour ends next week so I'll drop some teams, sets, update my VR noms, and make some meta observations then.

 

[dtc09]

i am here to make the fully serious request to ban king's rock from NDBH. king's rock, while not really something you'd call "good", is a gimmick that can easily steal random games from you on ladder and that takes no skill at all to use. it's too easy to cheese past furcoaters with king's rock+multihit, especially with something like coil/tera normal pop bomb zacian, which can't be spectraled. while sure it's not really a good set as i said, it's something completely luck-based that i'm sure nobody enjoys being against and that randomly cheeses wins and that throws away your elo for free, similarly to imprisonform but even more skilless. so get that dumbass rock out of the tier please and thank you.

 

[anaconja]

longer wall of text

im not going to entertain this debatelording and abrasiveness (no, you can't report someone's post because you disagree with it). youve been warned more than three years ago to stop posting gimmicks as legitimate sets and eventually banned almost two years ago from the entirety of oms. clearly you have not learned from this. this metagame is not another outlet for you to continue derailing threads, and if you don't change i will have you banned from this thread too.
any further discussion can be taken to private conversation, it will be deleted if posted here.

king's rock ban will be taken into consideration but groudon-primal will not. waterceus and dondozo, two very splashable physical walls, almost exclusively run fur coat, which was willfully ignored in the earlier post.

in other news the thread is currently open to sample submissions. please give a in-depth team description as well as problematic matchups in your submission. council will soon start deliberating on a vr as well.

 

[dtc09]

i made many team with similar structures but i feel like this on worked out the best so gonna submit it:

Palkia-O Balance:

team explanation

The star of this team is Adaptability Palkia-Origin. This mon is a good breaker with a great dual STAB for special walls (hits grounds, water that ohkoes pdon...) and most importantly, has some good defensive utility. Its speed and Strength Sap allow it to be a great blanket check to most PDon sets, and it can also stomach FIshious easily and check non-Torque/Pixilate Zacian, a job made much easier if you Tera to get rid of your secondary Dragon typing. Other than that, Palkia's got some good power and almost-unresisted STABs in the meta, forcing Ice Scales users to spam recovery and thus play more passively. Improofed by the standard Scales Dialga-O.

calcs

252 SpA Lustrous Globe Adaptability Palkia-Origin Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Groudon-Primal: 370-436 (91.5 - 107.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO (guaranteed after a layer)

252 SpA Lustrous Globe Adaptability Palkia-Origin Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Zygarde-Complete: 436-516 (68.5 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Lustrous Globe Adaptability Palkia-Origin Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 712-840 (111.9 - 132%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Lustrous Globe Adaptability Palkia-Origin Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 314-370 (80.9 - 95.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

This passive play that I mentioned is used and abused by MMX, a very deadly wallbreaker under the right conditions. Electro Drift catches FC Waters, which otherwise wall it, something that also supports Zacian. The rest of the set is pretty standard, a very good breaker only truly walled by FC Luna (FC Zygarde has to avoid chip at all costs to not get 2HKOed by geyser after a layer of Spikes). My own FC Zygarde is enough to improof generally though, as no LO means imposter only does up to 34% to it. Sap Zacian can also emergency improof.

Prank Yveltal eats attacks from the Psychics that Dialga can't take (headlong and the likes), doesn Prank stuff and sets up spikes with edge (while 2HKOing MMY/MGar and OHKOing DeoA to pressure walls better (since as you could see many calcs were helped by spikes a lot). Finally Pixilate Zacian is a swiss army knife-mon: Population Bomb can be a huge headache for the opponent if they only have FC Waters to check it and MMX kills it, it can knock stuff to remove potential ability shields for MMX and helmets for itself, Sap+high Speed+great typing gives it good defensive utility as a backup MMX soft check to eat GLances and Spin makes you impossible to revenge while being an unblockable form of hazard control. Decently self-proof too, as fairy resist+sap means you only have to risk losing your item (and same goes for imposter), though you can use FC Zyg in an emergency. Memed on by PDon but don itself is memed on by one of my offensive mons which is nice.

Great against teams relying on FC Waters as their main physical wall, and against passive Mortal Spinners that can't damage Dialga. Passivity overall is something punished hard on this team.

Effectiveness: Consistent team that got me to top 1 on ladder.

proof of peak

Weaknesses:

-: FC Lunala is the only real wall to MMX and also does well against Zacian, meaning teams with it can easily be a problem. Palkia can't even come in on it too freely just in case it has Nuzzle, meaning you need to pivot from Dialga first.

-: Special-attacking fairies, while not as popular as xern on SS BH, are a big pain to this team if they manage to overwhelm Dialga, as you can see by this team's 4 fairy weak mons. Going Tera Steel on Yveltal helps, and Zacian can emergency check sometimes.

-: PH setup normal-types with VD+Taunt, while not too common, can be a problem for this team, with Zygarde being unable to check them due to no Core, Dialga potentially dying to Blades/Headlong, Zacian being unable to hurt them if they stack defense boosts and taunt its sap and MMX only being useful if they haven't set up.

Luckily those threats aren't too common in the meta, meaning this team will do quite well against common teams and will get consistent results thanks to all the mons being reliable, able to come in quite often and with the right tools for longer games too.

(edit: made a couple tweaks to the team and added proof of peak)

 

[anaconja]

finally the kickoff tour is done so i can post my samples



double ph bulky balance
this used to be a team built around mg but then i realized in my games that it wasnt doing a whole lot and that i was using ph as the wincon (also the no retreat spam was annoying to deal with). basically you have 3 fat walls + chansey to cover most offensive mons, with two of them having koff for useful items like cloak, vest, and hdb. sets and removes hazards while spreading paralysis (it notably lives a unboosted magical torque if you want it crippled). patches the and protean/tc matchup because they have se coverage for basically everything except fairy. it usually teras fire so you can lure and ko it with magma storm, and also vastly improve the imposter matchup (though barring crits or being very damaged, you usually win 1v1 anyway).

weaknesses:
normalize can be problematic if your opponent can knock zygc because you get stuck spamming haze and heal order. if youre really desperate you can run corrosive gas over koff which is actually pretty funny on prankster. additionally the team doesnt match up too well against just straight attacking with ghost because isnt too reliable at taking hits. you can change / tera type to a ghost resist if this becomes too much a problem.
even with all precautions taken mg can still be a problem if your opponent runs some silly set like steel-ground coverage. of course it only has 4 moveslots so you can scout with and act accordingly


flutter mane bulky balance
this is the most correct way to use flutter mane. even without tera you can deal upwards of 39% to premier special wall which after some minor chip can turn into an 2hko (also 252 SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Tera Fairy Flutter Mane Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ice Scales Dialga-Origin: 179-211 (44.3 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery). essentially its like specs from gen 8 ndbh except youre faster than / so you get so many more chances to force things out. the rest of the team basically just handles things cant: scouts , is the hardest check, improofs flutter mane and blankets other special mons, and regenvest scouts other things. prankster z-haze is very silly but revenge killing with sucker punch is extremely funny and the walls here support it for the most part. plus you block imposter healing and it is a chess themed team after all

weaknesses:
mons with really good mixed coverage like fighting move or or electric/ice move can be a somewhat difficult matchup but you do have fairy tera to take most hits (besides something insane like oripulse band vcreate). also you have sucker punch for the psychic types!!


toxic spike + ghostceus balance
yea hes back. toxic debris makes it so much easier to set up tspikes and phaze, and you can do it in one turn. is a strange choice but its chosen to remove tspikes imposter sets, plus it blocks most lacking fire coverage and threatens to spread even more status through wisp and mortal spin. blocks spin and takes advantage of special walls being poisoned like spd or prankster mons, while purifying salt improofs and cripples annoyances to the team like normalize users or prankster mons. checks most running fire coverage and generally blankets physical attackers while blankets most special attackers (its electric to beat triage lol).

weaknesses:
this team lacks a consistent special wall so something like specs can bust through if and are weakened enough. also since this team benefits a lot from tspike poison types obviously become annoying especially because no mon very clearly threatens it.
also is horribly passive and doesnt threaten at all which gets depressing sometimes, though if you remove core you get a much worse ph normal matchup. you can replace rapid spin with spectral and risk getting spinblocked by steels forever maybe.

 

[Chessking345]

Team dump time. I built 4 teams for the first rounds of the tour, then rushed 3 new teams for finals. The first 3 teams are tested a lot more, seen a lot more games (sevag used them a bit too), and are going to be a lot more reliable and refined. However they might be a bit outdated.

Hadron Xurk Standard Balance(s) (First 3 sprites is first team)

I think I saw anaconja mention Xurkitree as a slow but powerful breakers, did a couple of calcs and found that LO Hadron has really great power while having move switching capabilities. However QD Xurk also came into mind since it had enough speed to outpace Zac at +1, so I ended up with two variants of this team with the exact same mons but different sets. I think the LO one was more consistent because LO clutches up a lot of OHKOs which is important, however the team isn't very adapted to later trends.

Xurk is the main breaker, with LO it OHKOs common walls like neutral Arceus, PDon, and Zyg-C. MegaPert improofs Xurkitree while providing a solid pivot and Knock. Zac-C acts as a speed control and take advantage of certain special walls Xurk cannot deal with. Zyg-C improofs Zac while providing a sturdy physical wall while also providing some pivoting, as well as serving as a MGar pivot, hence the nature. Scales Fairyceus takes the role of a special wall here thanks to its great typing, only really weak to MGar and Etern's Poison STAB. Shed Shell provides useful utility against threats like Dialga-O and Zyg-C, while helping with hazard game.

Team doesn't have the best way to support Xurk through sturdy walls like the growing Dialga-O, with notably a weak hazards game, relying on Imposter to get up hazards and a pretty passive Defogger. Zacian is also walled by many Zyg-C sets, forcing aggressive play with Xurk to capitalize on Zyg. Mixed Deo-A with powerful moves to hit Fairyceus, such as V-create and Gunk Shot is tough to handle. PH Normals also has a strong matchup.

QD Xurk can be very dangerous if given force switches, but relies on chip damage on a lot of stuff to hit OHKOs, I went with Leftovers to provide some nice longevity, as Xurk can be played quite aggressively into moves like Anchor and Spectral. MegaPert once again improofs Xurk, this time taking up the SpD role to check many threats without Grass coverage like MMY and Deo-A. Pixilate Zac-C provides the offensive pressure while being self improof. Population Bomb also possesses high natural power to better pressure stuff like MMY. Zyg serves as the same role as before, as with Imposter. Since I already had a SpD, I went with PH Fairyceus to provide hazards and Knock support while switching into some passive stuff.

Grass coverage attackers like Sheer Force Seed Flare or Magic Guard Chloroblast bypasses MegaPert, though Fairyceus can soft check. Tidy Up Zyg-C is not exactly the ideal hazard removal. PH Normals also are still extremely dangerous.

Double Dance POgre Standard Balance

Double Dance POgre is a cool offensive PH set that can pressure offensive and defensive mons through the two setup moves. However Dialga-O has been a lot more popular recently and this set can only really burn it if its not Cloak. Consider this team somewhat dated, you can try making a different with an offensive teammate that lures Dialga-O for it.

POgre is the bulky offensive support, threatening burns on non-Cloak mons while massively threatening teams without sturdy Water resists. I decided on Band SoR Zac-C as the offensive partner, don't exactly remember why but it does appreciate stuff getting chipped by POgre while POgre switches in on most Waterceus formes for free. Zyg Lunala Darkceus form a classic FurScalesPrank core, with FC Lunala being an excellent physical catch all while spreading burns with Infernal Parade, improofing Zac-C. I went with Adamant Multi-Attack on Darkceus as the Normalize counterplay to almost OHKO MMY. Lucky Punch was chosen to help patch up the PH weakness.

In matchups against opposing POgre and Dialga-O, especially with Covert Cloak, PH POgre is going to be very unimpactful and team will heavily rely on Zac-C for progress. PH Fairies can be difficult to handle since they switch in relatively freely against all 3 defensive mons, relying on POgre and Imposter to handle. PH Normals with coverage for Lunala can be annoying but there is the Steel Tera.

Chloroblast MMY Standard Balance

This specific MMY set seemed pretty effective at tearing through a lot of common walls, Lumina + LoR and Chloro greatly threatens everything while Blades nails basically all the Steel-types. In particular Chloroblast hits stuff like PDon, Waterceus, as well as neutral targets as much as Photon. Lumina also punches through Ho-Oh with minor chip since Ho-Oh doesn't run Cloak.

MMY is the main breaker, improofed by Scales Darkceus since LoR doesn't 2HKO from Imposter and it seemed more viable than something like Magic Guard Ho-Oh, though you can try Cloak Levi Steel. PDon and Dondozo form a physically defensive core, with Dondozo improofing PDon while PDon providing Knock Off and hazards utility. Zac-C rounds the team off with speed control against opposing MMY, doubling as a MMY soft check, provides hazard removal, and just additional offensive support. Shed Shell because this team has no switch-ins for Zyg-C.

Zyg-C is a pretty annoying matchup, MMY needs moderate chip, it walls PDon, Zac-C doesn't deal enough to Fur Coat. Imposter is a good answer unless it has Knock, Zac-C can be changed to Pop Bomb to 2HKO FC Zyg if it can max hit but is unreliable (Cloak is needed to improof Darkceus). Super powerful physical breakers like Band Zac-C with appropriate coverage and Band MMX can also be troubling as there is no Fur Coat user

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Steelworker Kartana Standard Balance

Kartana is a pretty interesting breaker, with Jolly it outspeed neutral Arceus and STAB Flower Trick deals with a lot of common physical walls like Waterceus and PDon. It also provides a strong priority. Pixi Zac provides additional speed control and removal. Then theres a standard FurScalesPrank core. Double berry on Zac-C and Ting-Lu are to dodge surprise Ground coverage from stuff like Deo-A and live a Fighting move from stuff like TG MGar. Lucky Punch once again as a PH bandaid.

Ground Z Diancie Standard Balance

I was looking through interesting Z-move users that can surprise opponents and saw Diancie, who has low opportunity cost for running a Z-move. Giving up Specs isn't too big of a deal since Specs is walled by Scales Dia-O already. I picked Waves for the Ground move to prevent Dialga from switching out, while also preventing doubles from Imposter switching in, though Blades or Headlong can also work. Desoland Ho-Oh is a natural improof, and can also soft check certain Zac variants and forces in fat walls like Zyg and Waterceus. This particular MMY set was chosen to exploit Dialga being lured while also being improofed by Ho-Oh. Waterceus because I needed an Ice resist and an Arc forme, though the exact set might be a bit questionable, definitely worth reconsidering. Item on Imposter can be changed to Shell or Cloak if desired.

Libero Deo-A Standard Balance

Deo-A is a terrifying breaker, I went with a LO Libero set with moves to hit most of the meta. RegenVest Zyg improofs the Deo-A. Pixi Zac yet again to improof Zyg-C, went with Pop Bomb this time since Cloak wasn't needed and the extra power is necessary to pressure. NDM set is goofy but I wanted some slow pivoting on the team and was fascinated by the idea of Clear Amulet Parting Shot to self improof, Levitate can be swapped for WBB if needed but the team has a Zyg and a Waterceus. Shed Shell because team doesn't have the greatest Zyg switch ins.

Download Ray Standard Balance

Probably the most questionable team here. Rayquaza was an interesting idea to provide a lot of mixed power and a decent PDon check in one. Improofing was hard though because Steels are really passive (doesn't have enough moveslots to hit all of Zac PDon and PH), decided on Doom Desire Levitate Steelceus, which is offensively improofed by Band SoR MMX. FC Lunala again to improof MMX while appreciating Ray being a V-create switch-in. Pixi Zac yet again to provide much needed speed control against MMY and removal. Lucky Punch because team has 0 setup counterplay lol.

This post is a bit long and I'm lazy so I'll make metagame observations and update my VR in a later post.

 

[anaconja]

here are the usage stats for the ndbh kickoff tour:

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Zacian-Crowned     |   46 |  63.89% |  45.65% |
| 2    | Chansey            |   39 |  54.17% |  58.97% |
| 3    | Zygarde-Complete   |   32 |  44.44% |  59.38% |
| 4    | Groudon            |   21 |  29.17% |  52.38% |
| 5    | Mewtwo-Mega-Y      |   15 |  20.83% |  40.00% |
| 6    | Slowbro            |   15 |  20.83% |  40.00% |
| 7    | Gengar             |   14 |  19.44% |  42.86% |
| 7    | Arceus-Water       |   14 |  19.44% |  42.86% |
| 9    | Arceus-Fairy       |   13 |  18.06% |  53.85% |
| 9    | Kyogre             |   13 |  18.06% |  46.15% |
| 11   | Dialga-Origin      |   12 |  16.67% |  66.67% |
| 12   | Lunala             |   11 |  15.28% |  45.45% |
| 12   | Mewtwo-Mega-X      |   11 |  15.28% |  36.36% |
| 12   | Palafin-Hero       |   11 |  15.28% |  36.36% |
| 15   | Arceus-Dark        |   10 |  13.89% |  60.00% |
| 15   | Ho-Oh              |   10 |  13.89% |  50.00% |
| 17   | Ting-Lu            |    9 |  12.50% |  33.33% |
| 18   | Xerneas-*          |    7 |   9.72% |  57.14% |
| 18   | Arceus-Steel       |    7 |   9.72% |  28.57% |
| 20   | Diancie            |    6 |   8.33% |  66.67% |
| 20   | Deoxys-Attack      |    6 |   8.33% |  66.67% |
| 20   | Giratina           |    6 |   8.33% |  50.00% |
| 20   | Miraidon           |    6 |   8.33% |  33.33% |
| 24   | Dondozo            |    5 |   6.94% | 100.00% |
| 24   | Xurkitree          |    5 |   6.94% |  80.00% |
| 24   | Palkia-Origin      |    5 |   6.94% |  80.00% |
| 24   | Venusaur           |    5 |   6.94% |  80.00% |
| 24   | Arceus-Ghost       |    5 |   6.94% |  80.00% |
| 29   | Swampert           |    4 |   5.56% |  75.00% |
| 29   | Registeel          |    4 |   5.56% |  50.00% |
| 29   | Regigigas          |    4 |   5.56% |  50.00% |
| 29   | Flutter Mane       |    4 |   5.56% |  50.00% |
| 29   | Kingambit          |    4 |   5.56% |  50.00% |
| 34   | Gyarados           |    3 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 34   | Dragapult          |    3 |   4.17% |  33.33% |
| 34   | Wo-Chien           |    3 |   4.17% |  33.33% |
| 34   | Blissey            |    3 |   4.17% |  33.33% |
| 38   | Cresselia          |    2 |   2.78% | 100.00% |
| 38   | Kyurem-Black       |    2 |   2.78% | 100.00% |
| 38   | Houndoom           |    2 |   2.78% |  50.00% |
| 38   | Necrozma-Ultra     |    2 |   2.78% |  50.00% |
| 38   | Ferrothorn         |    2 |   2.78% |  50.00% |
| 38   | Arceus-Ground      |    2 |   2.78% |  50.00% |
| 38   | Yveltal            |    2 |   2.78% |  50.00% |
| 38   | Reshiram           |    2 |   2.78% |  50.00% |
| 38   | Arceus             |    2 |   2.78% |   0.00% |
| 38   | Arceus-Fire        |    2 |   2.78% |   0.00% |
| 38   | Kartana            |    2 |   2.78% |   0.00% |
| 38   | Zekrom             |    2 |   2.78% |   0.00% |
| 38   | Charizard          |    2 |   2.78% |   0.00% |
| 38   | Necrozma-Dusk-Mane |    2 |   2.78% |   0.00% |
| 52   | Calyrex-Ice        |    1 |   1.39% | 100.00% |
| 52   | Arceus-Grass       |    1 |   1.39% | 100.00% |
| 52   | Blaziken           |    1 |   1.39% |   0.00% |
| 52   | Snorlax            |    1 |   1.39% |   0.00% |
| 52   | Latias             |    1 |   1.39% |   0.00% |
| 52   | Beedrill           |    1 |   1.39% |   0.00% |
| 52   | Koraidon           |    1 |   1.39% |   0.00% |
| 52   | Scream Tail        |    1 |   1.39% |   0.00% |
| 52   | Kyurem-White       |    1 |   1.39% |   0.00% |
| 52   | Eternatus          |    1 |   1.39% |   0.00% |
| 52   | Rayquaza           |    1 |   1.39% |   0.00% |

totally expected that zacc, chansey, zygc, mewtwo, and groudon are the top 5, but what is pretty shocking is how low the win percentage of mewtwos was. what was also pretty surprising were the win percentages of various underlooked mons, such as dondozo, palkia-o, venusaur, and xurkitree. meanwhile other mons like palafin, ting-lu, steelceus, and miraidon massively underperformed.


i've been considering suspecting terastallization for a while. Chessking345 has already made a very good post about it and basically all of his points about gen 9 bh also apply here. you can see how much of an impact tera has had with how used zygarde-c (the premier defensive tera user) was and how often it won (it has the highest win percentage of the top 10 used, in fact, beating even imposter). i personally am somewhat fond of tera (turning fairyceus into fireceus against zacc is fun). however, being able to do 40 to something and then tera and do 60 to something, or being able to win the matchup between the aforementioned fairyceus vs zacc, make tera uncompetitive because of the flipping of matchups on its head and the bottlenecking of optimal play being passivity before someone reveals their tera. i'd like some more preliminary discussion before i post the suspect.

 

[izlore]

I personally like Terstallization in nat dex over gen 9 because I like the opportunity cost it provides between megas and less powerful mons. As an example, I know in Chessking's last VRs, there was a conversation about Mbro vs dozo, where Mbro had better physical bulk, but dozo was less vulnerable to utility moves, but it can also terastallize if against an anti-FCwater wallbreaker. It adds a new dimension to play and teambuilding imo. I like it, but I wouldn't mourn it too much if it were gone.

On another note, and apologies in advance if I sound like a raving lunatic, but I do think generational gimmicks shouldn't be banned unless they are a new level of egregiously uncompetitive. The mechanics of pokemon have evolved generation by generation, each one adding new levels of complexity that change how things work. I think megas, z moves, tera and even dynamax should be just new levels of the same sentiment that created abilities, hidden abilities and the physical/special split. I'd be against removing tera for the same reasons I'd be against a gen 3 metagame removing abilities. I think having megas are part and parcel with gen 6, z with gen 7, you're signing up to those gens to play a different and unique metagame. Same reason why one might take out their old weather teams and head back to gen 5. With that in mind, I will concede that since these newer gimmicks are 1 mon per team, which creates an imbalance in team structure and don't affect all mons equally and thus there's an argument to be made that these are separate, I do get that, but my opinion on the topic is that these kinds of things shouldn't be banned.

Then again, I've only played comp for about a year, and so I've never played a format with dynamax for example, so I wouldn't be terribly surprised if I was vastly underestimating how broken it was it in comparison to tera, z or megas

 

[Chessking345]

Metagame observations/comments/thoughts. I'll go through these by updating the VR I did roughly 3 months ago. Brackets contain the mon's previous assumed rank (Same, Drop, Rise). I also tried ranking mons within tiers instead of alphabetical order for above C+. A lot of this is based on personal experience and I also was very aggressive in tiering niche stuff.
Viability Rankings

S

Chansey (Imposter) [S=]
Imposter is absolutely the best mon still in the meta. Scouting is incredible when sets are so diverse, especially against the ever popular high coverage sets from mons like Zac-C, MMY, and Deo-A. Imposter can also glue a team by fulfilling roles the team lacks, Eviolite helps check potent threats; Cloak provides universal utility against defensive mons; Shed Shell makes switching into Zyg super easy; Lucky Punch helps against PH. As seen from the usage stats, Imposter once again has a strong winrate. What is also noticeable that wasn't shown, was the lead winrate. Chansey was the number 1 lead mon at 22 uses out of 72 total, with an absurd 77% winrate, which includes Imposter mirror leads. Excluding the 3 mirror leads, Imposter lead vs non-Imposter lead has an insane record of 14-2. Arguably S+ but I think its unnecessary.
Zacian-Crowned [S=]
Zacian-C shows its versatility and splashability with the top usage in the tour. Easiest speed control to slap on teams, soft checks tons of stuff, can run an extremely diverse set of abilities and can fulfill almost any role a team needs.

Blissey (Imposter) [S-]
I personally haven't used Eviolite Imposter that much, and Blissey obviously is marginally bulkier when running Cloak or Shell. However I prefer Chansey for at least making opponents calc Eviolite and also have the potential Lucky Punch factor.

S-

Zygarde-Complete [A+]
Zyg-C has cemented itself to be a super easy fit onto almost all teams. Tera obviously enhances its defensive capabilities greatly but even without Tera Zyg-C can do some stupid stuff like check Band no GLance Zac-C with Fur Coat, scout almost every special attacker with RegenVest, or be a decent midground against a lot of things with Prankster.

Groudon-Primal [S-]
I think PDon, despite Zyg and Waterceus popularities, is still very effective. Its defensive utility is excellent, offensive potency, especially if its ISword triggered, is super dangerous. Moderately chipped Zyg also just loses, meaning Zyg has to lose tempo some time to stay healthy.

Mewtwo-Mega-Y [S=]
MMY is still super scary overall but its winrate just doesn't reflect this. Its still the best overall breaker and can be played very aggressively unlike its main competitor. Also cannot break everything and relies a lot on super effective coverage.

A+

Gengar-Mega [S-]
I don't think MGar is in a bad spot right now but its speed tier is pretty average for a breaker. Natural STAB Moongeist is super valuable though against non-AS Ice Scales walls and deterring Imposter from switching-in.

Arceus-Water [A+]
Still super consistent at what it does. Fishious and Scald are both good ways to force reactions. Most annoying thing has to be teching a move to hit PDon.

A

Arceus-Fairy [A=]
Very hard to exploit weaknesses and in a way deceptively bulky against neutral hits. PH sets can be very good support while defensive sets are also decent.

Deoxys-Attack [A-]
Deo-A is absolutely terrifying to deal with. Has an unrivaled speed tier making it impossible to rk outside of priority, impossible to scout with Imposter if played correctly, can Tera into literally any type, perfect offensive stats, high variety of sets and coverage. With correct predictions it can typically be impossible to deal with. Obviously relies a lot on team support to be built around it and needs to be played carefully, while still possible to run into poor matchups, but nonetheless still the premier breaker.

Arceus-Dark [A=]
Very consistent special sponge against the Psychics, notably even strong super effective damage can't reliably finish Darkceus off. Good physical bulk and lack of weakness to common elemental coverages is very nice against mixed sets.

Xerneas [A=]
Xern lacks the bulk that Fairyceus has which is very useful against some threats, but in return Xern frees up that Arceus slot to patch up some other defensive weakness.

A-

Mewtwo-Mega-X [A=]
MMX winrate was atrocious and it faces a lot lot of competition as a physical breaker. It also faces the same speed tier issue as MGar. It definitely can still work and be dangerous but its harder to fit and justify.

Dialga-Origin [B=]
Wow this was a big underestimate from me. Absolutely good SpD that blankets so many common SpA in the meta. Stuff generally need physical Ground coverage to bypass Dialga-O. Turns out Dragon wallbreakers basically are non-existent in the meta so that was a non-issue.

Arceus-Ghost [A-]
Deceptively dangerous offensive potential. Easily has the bulk to setup and suddenly its very threatening. Can also run some defensive sets though those are usually not worth it.

Kyogre-Primal [A=]
I think the biggest problem for POgre rn is Dialga-O, who stonewalls any offensive POgre set. That being said PH is still a great passive abuser, special sponge, and can make some reasonable progress with some utility/status moves and Scald burns. Plus if you aren't actually facing opposing POgre or Dialga-O suddenly this thing becomes a menace.

B+

Lunala [C+]
I'm finding Lunala incredibly splashable as a physical wall. Its non-passive thanks to Infernal Parade (while also threatening Imposter out), it can Tera, its not weak to any common coverage moves (STABs MMX needs GLance for Zyg, so only one slot and its usually not Knock), has good enough bulk. All you need is a V-create switch-in which is handily covered by Zyg. If desired Ability Shield patches up the Sunsteel vulnerability too.
Flutter Mane [UR]
I forgot to rank this, I think its better than Diancie but Diancie has mixed potential, is stronger, and has a bit more bulk.

Diancie-Mega [B+]
I tried coming up with some interesting breaking sets and Diancie ended up being considered relatively often. While Specs is most likely not the play, Z-move sets can be interesting since there's almost no opportunity cost and Diancie is naturally strong enough.

Regigigas [B+]

Slaking [B+]
Surprisingly saw pretty low usage but I can see it being very anti-meta because lack of good Normal resists. Though FC Zyg takes a laughable amount from Facade.

Swampert-Mega [B+]
Very unique, can do either Def or SpD albeit it kinda can't do it very effectively due to overall lacklustre bulk.

B

Kartana [B=]
Kartana's Grass STAB and Sunsteel have just enough power to deal with common physical walls like PDon and Zyg. That being said even with Gigaton Kartana struggles greatly with actually finding opportunities to switch-in since it doesn't threaten a lot of OHKOs, with Gigaton not bypassing FC either.

Ho-Oh [B+]
Ho-Oh has some issues with typing (forced to run Boots so no other items, weak to Water and Electric), notably having to run Desoland to not get farmed by PSea Zac. Bounce sets, previously quite decent, are also not nearly as good since Xern can choose to bypass with Stone Axe, which also has a benefit of hitting Ho-Oh really hard (as does Salt Cure). However, Desoland, or even Orichalcum Pulse boosted V-create hits really hard which kind of lets Ho-Oh do similar offensive pressure like PDon.

Dondozo [B=]
Incredible 5-0 record. Being able to Tera is a nice bonus but its super super passive.

Slowbro-Mega [B+]
Somehow got an atrocious winrate. Not being able to Tera is a big deal I guess? I think it needs to be using its deceptively high SpA to run offensive moves like Scald and Future Sight to differentiate by being not passive.

Gyarados-Mega [B-]
The specific PH set is actually quite strong since Water-resists aren't generally status immune.

Miraidon [B+]
Offensive sets on paper seems threatening but you still have to deal with stuff like Dialga-O and common STAB immunities. Defensive sets are also not that great because Triage is irrelevant somehow.

Palkia-Origin [B=]
Kind of the same issues with Miraidon. Though with an unknockable item its less vulnerable to passive stuff.

Ting-Lu [A-]
Ting-Lu's specific typing is very helpful against Electric moves... which aren't super prevalent anymore. Grass moves have been popping up as an option over Electric moves since SpD POgre isn't really a thing anymore and Ho-Oh is both rarer and also gets hit hard by stuff like Lumina. Still really good against Specs Ghost move users, especially Hadron ones, but then faces a ton of competition from SpD Zyg-C. Winrate kind of reflects Ting-Lu's mediocracy.

Yveltal [A-]
The problem with Yveltal is that stuff always run Fairy moves because its the best option to hit Darkceus while also hitting stuff like Zyg. Ground immunity is cool and it also resists the Grass moves that are rising in usage but in the end you still get smacked by Fairy moves. Fighting neutrality is a lot less notable now when TG Ghost-types have been declining (and against MGar you can always try to get away with teching a Chople berry).

B-

Charizard-Mega-Y [B=]
Very low usage. Zac-C resisting Flying is not good, though a lot can't actually OHKO Char-Y. Also doesn't like stuff like Dia-O and SpD Zyg.

Arceus [B=]
I think you can generally use Regigigas for this role. MMY and friends which you usually can midground now has the Lumina Crash to midground you.

Eternatus [B+]
Etern saw one usage and lost, which really says a lot. I think its relatively underexplored as the Poison-typing can be pretty interesting but theres a lot of stuff in the meta rn thats very hostile to it.

Arceus-Ground [UR]
So its actually potentially decent. Specially defensive wise you are only weak to the Grass-moves and Kyogre's STAB so you can possibly run Ice Scales and get away with the fat neutral SpD similar to Fairies while not being weak to MGar and immune to Volt Switch.

Xurkitree [C+]
Hadron is absurd breaking power while not being choiced but you need a way around Dialga.

C+

Arceus-Fire [B-]
Kind of niche tbh. Pure Fire-typing isn't that great in a Ground-coverage heavy meta.

Arceus-Steel [B=]
Nice winrate. I think its just replaceable in its role so its not worth using it generally.

Blaziken-Mega [C+]
The V-create is very very strong but Blaziken is also very very slow so you get outsped by a lot of the walls after the speed drop if not before the speed drop.

Guzzlord [C+]
Necrozma-Dusk-Mane [C+]
Its really slow which can be useful.

Registeel [C]

Steelix-Mega [C-]
Ground STAB can be nice.

Venusaur-Mega [C]
Kind of unique typing and passable bulk for useful improofing stuff.
Zacian [C+]
Unlucky 138 speed tier not outspeeding MMY.

C

Celesteela [C]

Darmanitan-Zen [C]

Giratina [B=]
I still don't see when you would ever use Giratina.
Giratina-Origin [C]

Kangaskhan (-Mega) [D]
Very limited defensive utility. However, Kang's niche is apparent enough to distinguish it, and double setting CEdge is pretty toxic.
Melmetal [C]

Rayquaza [C]

Solgaleo [B=]
Our highest previous ranked 0 usage mon (Slaking doesn't count). It's roles are generally outdone by Dialga-O.
Salamence-Mega [C]
Groudon [UR]
See Arceus-Ground, though this SpD is quite a bit worse and also means you can't run PDon.

Zamazenta-Crowned [B-]
There really is no reason to use this, at least defensively. Maybe offensive sets can be interesting.

C-

Chansey [C-]

Cresselia [D]

Dragapult [D]
I can actually see maybe mixed offensive sets with some way of dealing with support Zac-C being potentially viable.
Ferrothorn [UR]

Garchomp-Mega [C]

Lugia [C-]
Stuff kind of dropping Bolt Strike and Volt Tackle which really helps Lugia.

Metagross-Mega [C+]
The speed tier isn't relevant you speed tie Diancie at best so its only useful for outspeeding Kartana, so its only use is like countering specific Kartana sets? since other cases you might as well just run support Zac-C.

Palkia [C+]
Mixed Fishious in Arc meta?
Pheromosa [UR]
It can Tera, it outspeeds everything.

Scizor-Mega [C]

Snorlax [C+]
The lacklustre physical bulk isn't worth over running Gigas.

D

Audino-Mega [C+]
There is pretty much no reason to use this because teams don't generally have that passive mon switch-in slot. If you wanted that you just generally compress by running some PH support set or Shed Shell Imposter.

Koraidon [B-]
Yeah this was an overrate lol.

Kyurem-Black [C]
Kyurem-White [D]

Palafin-Hero [UR]
I might've forgot to rank this last time. That being said, just use Primal Kyogre, the 10 speed doesn't really matter.

Necrozma-Ultra [C]
Regieleki [UR]
See Pheromosa, but weaker.
Sceptile-Mega [D]

Tyranitar-Mega [C]

UR

Arceus-Ice [D]

Arceus-Psychic [D]
I think you still use Cress.

Beedrill-Mega [C-]
Pheromosa not only outspeeds Zac AND Deo-A, but can also Tera.

Latias-Mega [D]

Magearna [D]

Suicune [C]

Tapu Fini [C-]

Zekrom [C-]

I think the meta is in a pretty decent place right now. There's a lot of viable mons, sets, and team ideas available to experiment and build around. There are some personal small issues for me like maybe CEdge/SAxe but those moves are a lot easier to deal with in ND. However Tera is something I do think should probably go. Thanks to anaconja for linking my SV BH post on it, I'll clarify some differences for Tera between the two metas.

For keeping Tera:
- There is a very notable pool of mons that cannot Tera (Megas and for some reason Primal Kyogre). This in a way is a good thing since it allows some lower BST mons to differentiate themselves.
- An extension from the above point, a lot of the fast but not fastest breakers cannot Tera, which makes revenge killers like Zacian-C and Deoxys-A's jobs a lot easier since they don't have to predict Teras.
- There are a lot more viable defensive mons so offensive Tera is easier to handle, meanwhile the stronger stuff like MMY don't actually get to Tera.

For banning Tera:
- Ability to Tera is so impactful that a lot of the mons that cannot Tera are moderately hurt by it. Stuff that can Tera are dominating the meta.
- Since there are so many viable mons even without Tera we can have pretty solid mons to fulfill different roles instead of having Tera cover that.
- There are some very egregious abusers of Tera, notably Zyg-C but also in some way Deoxys-A. I would actually argue that current Zyg-C is unhealthy to a point since it just completely warps everything around. FC not getting 2HKOed by Band Torque from Zac-C and RegenVest basically eating every special hit possible is already restricting enough, but then add on the ability to Tera into nice defensive types (Water, Steel, Fairy, Poison, etc) and you need to have the perfect coverage to hit it, provided you don't actually get crippled first. This has basically decreased the diversity of the meta because why use any other defensive mon when you can have Zyg-C instead (obviously you need other defensive mons but Zyg-C being an auto-include to fulfill every role isn't very healthy).
- (This is kind of a counterargument to the whole generation gimmick thing, even though that point isn't actually a valid argument in the first place for competitiveness) Tera is edging out previous generational mechanics like Megas (point 1) and more notably Z-moves. Z-moves were overall a cool addition to the meta by helping more defensive mons gain a bit more surprise damage or provide a useful utility Z-effect, and notably comes with an item opportunity cost when items are better than ever. They also have provide a nice Knock absorb which is pretty rare now. However, using a Z-move means you can't Tera, and in almost all cases the ability to Tera is way stronger than a possible Z-moves (exceptions of course such as Z-Doom Desire). This has made Z-moves basically obsolete, since most offensive mons prefer a more consistent boosting item like Choice or Life Orb.
- Addressing the above posts point again, while you brought up the non-universal aspect, another notable difference with Megas and Z-moves compared to DMax and Tera is that Megas are predetermined while Z-moves are one use. Z-moves surprise burst power was already considered rather concerning for the standard tiers but in the end its one use in one turn, while Tera can provide a constant damage boost while also doing other stuff. Also mentioned above that offensive Z-moves on offensive mons aren't nearly as good in BH than in standard tiers.
- NatDex features some key moves like Spectral Thief and Core Enforcer, but Tera can allow any mon to become immune to one of them, making games more matchup fish where anti-setup mons can be bypassed by Normal Tera while anti-PH mons bypassed by Fairy Tera, forcing the use of stuff like Prank (even though still good) and Entrainment.
- All the stuff I mentioned in my SV BH post pretty much still applies here (offensive power, flipping matchups, causing predictions, making play more passive).

Overall while I actually think Tera is less overall as bad than in SV BH, I would still want to see it suspected and banned because I still view it as unhealthy, and also theres some individual worse aspects here about Tera.

 

[dtc09]

Metagame observations/comments/thoughts. I'll go through these by updating the VR I did roughly 3 months ago. Brackets contain the mon's previous assumed rank (Same, Drop, Rise). I also tried ranking mons within tiers instead of alphabetical order for above C+. A lot of this is based on personal experience and I also was very aggressive in tiering niche stuff.
Viability Rankings

S

Chansey (Imposter) [S=]
Imposter is absolutely the best mon still in the meta. Scouting is incredible when sets are so diverse, especially against the ever popular high coverage sets from mons like Zac-C, MMY, and Deo-A. Imposter can also glue a team by fulfilling roles the team lacks, Eviolite helps check potent threats; Cloak provides universal utility against defensive mons; Shed Shell makes switching into Zyg super easy; Lucky Punch helps against PH. As seen from the usage stats, Imposter once again has a strong winrate. What is also noticeable that wasn't shown, was the lead winrate. Chansey was the number 1 lead mon at 22 uses out of 72 total, with an absurd 77% winrate, which includes Imposter mirror leads. Excluding the 3 mirror leads, Imposter lead vs non-Imposter lead has an insane record of 14-2. Arguably S+ but I think its unnecessary.
Zacian-Crowned [S=]
Zacian-C shows its versatility and splashability with the top usage in the tour. Easiest speed control to slap on teams, soft checks tons of stuff, can run an extremely diverse set of abilities and can fulfill almost any role a team needs.

Blissey (Imposter) [S-]
I personally haven't used Eviolite Imposter that much, and Blissey obviously is marginally bulkier when running Cloak or Shell. However I prefer Chansey for at least making opponents calc Eviolite and also have the potential Lucky Punch factor.

S-

Zygarde-Complete [A+]
Zyg-C has cemented itself to be a super easy fit onto almost all teams. Tera obviously enhances its defensive capabilities greatly but even without Tera Zyg-C can do some stupid stuff like check Band no GLance Zac-C with Fur Coat, scout almost every special attacker with RegenVest, or be a decent midground against a lot of things with Prankster.

Groudon-Primal [S-]
I think PDon, despite Zyg and Waterceus popularities, is still very effective. Its defensive utility is excellent, offensive potency, especially if its ISword triggered, is super dangerous. Moderately chipped Zyg also just loses, meaning Zyg has to lose tempo some time to stay healthy.

Mewtwo-Mega-Y [S=]
MMY is still super scary overall but its winrate just doesn't reflect this. Its still the best overall breaker and can be played very aggressively unlike its main competitor. Also cannot break everything and relies a lot on super effective coverage.

A+

Gengar-Mega [S-]
I don't think MGar is in a bad spot right now but its speed tier is pretty average for a breaker. Natural STAB Moongeist is super valuable though against non-AS Ice Scales walls and deterring Imposter from switching-in.

Arceus-Water [A+]
Still super consistent at what it does. Fishious and Scald are both good ways to force reactions. Most annoying thing has to be teching a move to hit PDon.

A

Arceus-Fairy [A=]
Very hard to exploit weaknesses and in a way deceptively bulky against neutral hits. PH sets can be very good support while defensive sets are also decent.

Deoxys-Attack [A-]
Deo-A is absolutely terrifying to deal with. Has an unrivaled speed tier making it impossible to rk outside of priority, impossible to scout with Imposter if played correctly, can Tera into literally any type, perfect offensive stats, high variety of sets and coverage. With correct predictions it can typically be impossible to deal with. Obviously relies a lot on team support to be built around it and needs to be played carefully, while still possible to run into poor matchups, but nonetheless still the premier breaker.

Arceus-Dark [A=]
Very consistent special sponge against the Psychics, notably even strong super effective damage can't reliably finish Darkceus off. Good physical bulk and lack of weakness to common elemental coverages is very nice against mixed sets.

Xerneas [A=]
Xern lacks the bulk that Fairyceus has which is very useful against some threats, but in return Xern frees up that Arceus slot to patch up some other defensive weakness.

A-

Mewtwo-Mega-X [A=]
MMX winrate was atrocious and it faces a lot lot of competition as a physical breaker. It also faces the same speed tier issue as MGar. It definitely can still work and be dangerous but its harder to fit and justify.

Dialga-Origin [B=]
Wow this was a big underestimate from me. Absolutely good SpD that blankets so many common SpA in the meta. Stuff generally need physical Ground coverage to bypass Dialga-O. Turns out Dragon wallbreakers basically are non-existent in the meta so that was a non-issue.

Arceus-Ghost [A-]
Deceptively dangerous offensive potential. Easily has the bulk to setup and suddenly its very threatening. Can also run some defensive sets though those are usually not worth it.

Kyogre-Primal [A=]
I think the biggest problem for POgre rn is Dialga-O, who stonewalls any offensive POgre set. That being said PH is still a great passive abuser, special sponge, and can make some reasonable progress with some utility/status moves and Scald burns. Plus if you aren't actually facing opposing POgre or Dialga-O suddenly this thing becomes a menace.

B+

Lunala [C+]
I'm finding Lunala incredibly splashable as a physical wall. Its non-passive thanks to Infernal Parade (while also threatening Imposter out), it can Tera, its not weak to any common coverage moves (STABs MMX needs GLance for Zyg, so only one slot and its usually not Knock), has good enough bulk. All you need is a V-create switch-in which is handily covered by Zyg. If desired Ability Shield patches up the Sunsteel vulnerability too.
Flutter Mane [UR]
I forgot to rank this, I think its better than Diancie but Diancie has mixed potential, is stronger, and has a bit more bulk.

Diancie-Mega [B+]
I tried coming up with some interesting breaking sets and Diancie ended up being considered relatively often. While Specs is most likely not the play, Z-move sets can be interesting since there's almost no opportunity cost and Diancie is naturally strong enough.

Regigigas [B+]

Slaking [B+]
Surprisingly saw pretty low usage but I can see it being very anti-meta because lack of good Normal resists. Though FC Zyg takes a laughable amount from Facade.

Swampert-Mega [B+]
Very unique, can do either Def or SpD albeit it kinda can't do it very effectively due to overall lacklustre bulk.

B

Kartana [B=]
Kartana's Grass STAB and Sunsteel have just enough power to deal with common physical walls like PDon and Zyg. That being said even with Gigaton Kartana struggles greatly with actually finding opportunities to switch-in since it doesn't threaten a lot of OHKOs, with Gigaton not bypassing FC either.

Ho-Oh [B+]
Ho-Oh has some issues with typing (forced to run Boots so no other items, weak to Water and Electric), notably having to run Desoland to not get farmed by PSea Zac. Bounce sets, previously quite decent, are also not nearly as good since Xern can choose to bypass with Stone Axe, which also has a benefit of hitting Ho-Oh really hard (as does Salt Cure). However, Desoland, or even Orichalcum Pulse boosted V-create hits really hard which kind of lets Ho-Oh do similar offensive pressure like PDon.

Dondozo [B=]
Incredible 5-0 record. Being able to Tera is a nice bonus but its super super passive.

Slowbro-Mega [B+]
Somehow got an atrocious winrate. Not being able to Tera is a big deal I guess? I think it needs to be using its deceptively high SpA to run offensive moves like Scald and Future Sight to differentiate by being not passive.

Gyarados-Mega [B-]
The specific PH set is actually quite strong since Water-resists aren't generally status immune.

Miraidon [B+]
Offensive sets on paper seems threatening but you still have to deal with stuff like Dialga-O and common STAB immunities. Defensive sets are also not that great because Triage is irrelevant somehow.

Palkia-Origin [B=]
Kind of the same issues with Miraidon. Though with an unknockable item its less vulnerable to passive stuff.

Ting-Lu [A-]
Ting-Lu's specific typing is very helpful against Electric moves... which aren't super prevalent anymore. Grass moves have been popping up as an option over Electric moves since SpD POgre isn't really a thing anymore and Ho-Oh is both rarer and also gets hit hard by stuff like Lumina. Still really good against Specs Ghost move users, especially Hadron ones, but then faces a ton of competition from SpD Zyg-C. Winrate kind of reflects Ting-Lu's mediocracy.

Yveltal [A-]
The problem with Yveltal is that stuff always run Fairy moves because its the best option to hit Darkceus while also hitting stuff like Zyg. Ground immunity is cool and it also resists the Grass moves that are rising in usage but in the end you still get smacked by Fairy moves. Fighting neutrality is a lot less notable now when TG Ghost-types have been declining (and against MGar you can always try to get away with teching a Chople berry).

B-

Charizard-Mega-Y [B=]
Very low usage. Zac-C resisting Flying is not good, though a lot can't actually OHKO Char-Y. Also doesn't like stuff like Dia-O and SpD Zyg.

Arceus [B=]
I think you can generally use Regigigas for this role. MMY and friends which you usually can midground now has the Lumina Crash to midground you.

Eternatus [B+]
Etern saw one usage and lost, which really says a lot. I think its relatively underexplored as the Poison-typing can be pretty interesting but theres a lot of stuff in the meta rn thats very hostile to it.

Arceus-Ground [UR]
So its actually potentially decent. Specially defensive wise you are only weak to the Grass-moves and Kyogre's STAB so you can possibly run Ice Scales and get away with the fat neutral SpD similar to Fairies while not being weak to MGar and immune to Volt Switch.

Xurkitree [C+]
Hadron is absurd breaking power while not being choiced but you need a way around Dialga.

C+

Arceus-Fire [B-]
Kind of niche tbh. Pure Fire-typing isn't that great in a Ground-coverage heavy meta.

Arceus-Steel [B=]
Nice winrate. I think its just replaceable in its role so its not worth using it generally.

Blaziken-Mega [C+]
The V-create is very very strong but Blaziken is also very very slow so you get outsped by a lot of the walls after the speed drop if not before the speed drop.

Guzzlord [C+]
Necrozma-Dusk-Mane [C+]
Its really slow which can be useful.

Registeel [C]

Steelix-Mega [C-]
Ground STAB can be nice.

Venusaur-Mega [C]
Kind of unique typing and passable bulk for useful improofing stuff.
Zacian [C+]
Unlucky 138 speed tier not outspeeding MMY.

C

Celesteela [C]

Darmanitan-Zen [C]

Giratina [B=]
I still don't see when you would ever use Giratina.
Giratina-Origin [C]

Kangaskhan (-Mega) [D]
Very limited defensive utility. However, Kang's niche is apparent enough to distinguish it, and double setting CEdge is pretty toxic.
Melmetal [C]

Rayquaza [C]

Solgaleo [B=]
Our highest previous ranked 0 usage mon (Slaking doesn't count). It's roles are generally outdone by Dialga-O.
Salamence-Mega [C]
Groudon [UR]
See Arceus-Ground, though this SpD is quite a bit worse and also means you can't run PDon.

Zamazenta-Crowned [B-]
There really is no reason to use this, at least defensively. Maybe offensive sets can be interesting.

C-

Chansey [C-]

Cresselia [D]

Dragapult [D]
I can actually see maybe mixed offensive sets with some way of dealing with support Zac-C being potentially viable.
Ferrothorn [UR]

Garchomp-Mega [C]

Lugia [C-]
Stuff kind of dropping Bolt Strike and Volt Tackle which really helps Lugia.

Metagross-Mega [C+]
The speed tier isn't relevant you speed tie Diancie at best so its only useful for outspeeding Kartana, so its only use is like countering specific Kartana sets? since other cases you might as well just run support Zac-C.

Palkia [C+]
Mixed Fishious in Arc meta?
Pheromosa [UR]
It can Tera, it outspeeds everything.

Scizor-Mega [C]

Snorlax [C+]
The lacklustre physical bulk isn't worth over running Gigas.

D

Audino-Mega [C+]
There is pretty much no reason to use this because teams don't generally have that passive mon switch-in slot. If you wanted that you just generally compress by running some PH support set or Shed Shell Imposter.

Koraidon [B-]
Yeah this was an overrate lol.

Kyurem-Black [C]
Kyurem-White [D]

Palafin-Hero [UR]
I might've forgot to rank this last time. That being said, just use Primal Kyogre, the 10 speed doesn't really matter.

Necrozma-Ultra [C]
Regieleki [UR]
See Pheromosa, but weaker.
Sceptile-Mega [D]

Tyranitar-Mega [C]

UR

Arceus-Ice [D]

Arceus-Psychic [D]
I think you still use Cress.

Beedrill-Mega [C-]
Pheromosa not only outspeeds Zac AND Deo-A, but can also Tera.

Latias-Mega [D]

Magearna [D]

Suicune [C]

Tapu Fini [C-]

Zekrom [C-]

I think the meta is in a pretty decent place right now. There's a lot of viable mons, sets, and team ideas available to experiment and build around. There are some personal small issues for me like maybe CEdge/SAxe but those moves are a lot easier to deal with in ND. However Tera is something I do think should probably go. Thanks to anaconja for linking my SV BH post on it, I'll clarify some differences for Tera between the two metas.

For keeping Tera:
- There is a very notable pool of mons that cannot Tera (Megas and for some reason Primal Kyogre). This in a way is a good thing since it allows some lower BST mons to differentiate themselves.
- An extension from the above point, a lot of the fast but not fastest breakers cannot Tera, which makes revenge killers like Zacian-C and Deoxys-A's jobs a lot easier since they don't have to predict Teras.
- There are a lot more viable defensive mons so offensive Tera is easier to handle, meanwhile the stronger stuff like MMY don't actually get to Tera.

For banning Tera:
- Ability to Tera is so impactful that a lot of the mons that cannot Tera are moderately hurt by it. Stuff that can Tera are dominating the meta.
- Since there are so many viable mons even without Tera we can have pretty solid mons to fulfill different roles instead of having Tera cover that.
- There are some very egregious abusers of Tera, notably Zyg-C but also in some way Deoxys-A. I would actually argue that current Zyg-C is unhealthy to a point since it just completely warps everything around. FC not getting 2HKOed by Band Torque from Zac-C and RegenVest basically eating every special hit possible is already restricting enough, but then add on the ability to Tera into nice defensive types (Water, Steel, Fairy, Poison, etc) and you need to have the perfect coverage to hit it, provided you don't actually get crippled first. This has basically decreased the diversity of the meta because why use any other defensive mon when you can have Zyg-C instead (obviously you need other defensive mons but Zyg-C being an auto-include to fulfill every role isn't very healthy).
- (This is kind of a counterargument to the whole generation gimmick thing, even though that point isn't actually a valid argument in the first place for competitiveness) Tera is edging out previous generational mechanics like Megas (point 1) and more notably Z-moves. Z-moves were overall a cool addition to the meta by helping more defensive mons gain a bit more surprise damage or provide a useful utility Z-effect, and notably comes with an item opportunity cost when items are better than ever. They also have provide a nice Knock absorb which is pretty rare now. However, using a Z-move means you can't Tera, and in almost all cases the ability to Tera is way stronger than a possible Z-moves (exceptions of course such as Z-Doom Desire). This has made Z-moves basically obsolete, since most offensive mons prefer a more consistent boosting item like Choice or Life Orb.
- Addressing the above posts point again, while you brought up the non-universal aspect, another notable difference with Megas and Z-moves compared to DMax and Tera is that Megas are predetermined while Z-moves are one use. Z-moves surprise burst power was already considered rather concerning for the standard tiers but in the end its one use in one turn, while Tera can provide a constant damage boost while also doing other stuff. Also mentioned above that offensive Z-moves on offensive mons aren't nearly as good in BH than in standard tiers.
- All the stuff I mentioned in my SV BH post pretty much still applies here (offensive power, flipping matchups, causing predictions, making play more passive).

Overall while I actually think Tera is less overall as bad than in SV BH, I would still want to see it suspected and banned because I still view it as unhealthy, and also theres some individual worse aspects here about Tera.

: i'd bump up this guy a little, compared to darkceus it doesn't take up your arc slot (so you can run water/fairyceus) and its additional flying typing is really nice; it's immune or neutral to ground/fighting coverage which is now more used on stuff like mmy because of dialga-o and i have gotten pretty good results with prank yvel for that reason, plus with prank i can move before deoa rends me and thus avoid the 2HKO, checking it unless it packs electro drift. scales dialga-o+prank yvel mostly blankets every special attacker which is very nice, plus yvel can pack ceaseless edge to spike on passive walls and prank users.

as for mirai, i wouldn't call it off just because of dialga, specs tera dragon hadron dragon energy does quite some damage to it and while prediction reliant because of zacian being everywhere it's def a better breaker than something like mega diancie.

also pogre cannot tera while pdon can what

 

[Clas]

also pogre cannot tera while pdon can what

yeah this is a really weird bug and fsr holding an orb means u can actually tera whereas not holding one means u cant. that being said tera is worse than true ability + item freedom in 99% of cases

 

[Chessking345]

: i'd bump up this guy a little, compared to darkceus it doesn't take up your arc slot (so you can run water/fairyceus) and its additional flying typing is really nice; it's immune or neutral to ground/fighting coverage which is now more used on stuff like mmy because of dialga-o and i have gotten pretty good results with prank yvel for that reason, plus with prank i can move before deoa rends me and thus avoid the 2HKO, checking it unless it packs electro drift. scales dialga-o+prank yvel mostly blankets every special attacker which is very nice, plus yvel can pack ceaseless edge to spike on passive walls and prank users.

Theres multiple problems with Yveltal for me. First, it has noticeably lower bulk, which matters quite a bit when you consider that Darkceus already barely lives against multiple stuff, such as MG MMY LoR. The Flying-type is also much more of a hinderance, giving it a weakness to Electric (Volt Switch, Rising Voltage, Bolt Strike, Volt Tackle are all used), Ice, and Rock, with the Rock weakness generally forcing HDB over Cloak or Leftovers. The defensive bonus the Flying-type gives isn't really that useful either, since Darkceus easily takes the Ground-moves while Fighting moves are basically only Tail Glow Secret Sword and the occasional HJK/Axe Kick, the former Darkceus can tech a berry for if really needed (no SpD Zyg or Prank Zyg for example) while the latter is only run on MG and those sets can beat Yveltal anyways with Volt Tackle or LoR. I just have never been in a situation where I want to use Yveltal outside of a specific improof (which is kind of reflected through its only 2 usages in the tour). Also Darkceus has a very situationally useful speed tier if you run Anchor Shot and Jolly to snipe Diancie.
Yveltal also faces competition from Ting-Lu, who offers slightly less SpD but immune to Electric and has great physical bulk to take the Fighting coverage anyways from full.

as for mirai, i wouldn't call it off just because of dialga, specs tera dragon hadron dragon energy does quite some damage to it and while prediction reliant because of zacian being everywhere it's def a better breaker than something like mega diancie.

This might be true but a major issue as you pointed out is the heavy amounts of prediction required. Almost every team runs a Fairy and a Ground (even without a Ground there's always Imposter as a 4x resist) which makes both STABs really annoying to click. You also kind of need Specs unlike say Hadron Xurk because your SpA is lower so without Specs you don't 2HKO neutral Scales Arc. As for comparison with Mega Diancie, I think Diancie is kind of an unexplored mon with other possible sets stemming from the standard Mixed Pixilate. Diancie also offers a much better mixed potential which is huge to break SpD mons.

yeah this is a really weird bug and fsr holding an orb means u can actually tera whereas not holding one means u cant. that being said tera is worse than true ability + item freedom in 99% of cases

Do you know if this is intended behaviour or its just some issue only on PS?

 

[Clas]

Do you know if this is intended behaviour or its just some issue only on PS?

unintentional behaviour, holding orbs should prevent u

 

[dtc09]

time to clown around for a bit:



Blacephalon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Desolate Land
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Eruption
- Blue Flare
- Astral Barrage
- Trick

absolutely nutty wallbreaker that can 2HKO neutral scales users and non-regenvest zygarde (lol) with tera fire erupt. dland also lets you come in on rends/scalds/other water attacks, giving you something to come into. it also outruns neutral arcs which is always nice. would suggest for a place on the VR, i think it's a better fire nuke than mblaziken due to special walls' lack of fire resists and better speed tier. a team example:

https://pokepast.es/5f00a68ad5e269f2

kyurem here exploits teams relying on zygarde being their main special wall by being very hard to switch into, while both zyg and zac improof blace. lucky punch imp patches up the lack op setup counterplay outside of spectral zygarde.

edit: ok since i don't feel like double posting i'm adding this as an edit. done with suspect laddering, used a couple teams:



kinda standard balance except for one thing: a mon that might or might not be outclassed by mmx.



Necrozma-Ultra @ Life Orb
Ability: Orichalcum Pulse
Tera Type: can't tera, dunno whether is this intentional or not
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Photon Geyser
- Glaive Rush
- Strength Sap
- V-create

basically it's an mmx that can beat zygarde with its natural STAB and thus can have a better matchup against fc zyg teams, not needing to predict around with glance. it also suffers less from 4MSS: lo opulse mmx wants geyser for fc waters, vc for zac, cc for darks and pdon which isn't 2HKOed by geyser because apparently dland cancels opulse, sap for longevity and glance for zygarde. meanwhile ultra has glaive for zyg, darks (which are never FC) and pdon, thus getting benefit from both mmx's fighting STAB and from its glance. sword of ruin mmx meanwhile lacks the ability to do over half to fc luna with v-create, having a much worse matchup for it. is this blatant coping because unec is a really cool mon that i desperately want to have a niche? yes. is it totally outclassed? not really.

as for the improof:



Zacian-Crowned @ Covert Cloak
Ability: Well-Baked Body
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Anchor Shot
- Nature's Madness
- Taunt
- Heal Order

traps and removes stuff like fc mbro without u-turn, as it also is unec's biggest nemesis. here's where tera's strength comes in: completely taking pdon's STABs and zyg's twaves and resisting water while not taking increased damage from salt cure helps to win 1v1 in case cloak gets knocked off.



funny as hell HO. the pdon set is especially hilarious and can get a bunch of kills under its belt too, though this team is mostly a meme so don't pay that much attention to it. fc mpert is like the only improof tho and it takes almost 50 from +3 vcreate lol