Metagame National Dex BH

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Champion Leon said:
I think we should quick ban Fishous, Suspect Bolt Beak.

There is no equivalent Ash-Greninja for Electric-types, and that makes it harder to abuse, there is a natural immunity to it in Ground-typing, shared by common Pokémon like Zygarde-C, and Groudon-P.

You cannot argue that Desolate Land counts as a complete check for certain, bc you could slow pivot in the Primordial Sea user and nullify it by coming in next. So it’s a draw for those abilities.

Lets call a spade a spade: Fishious is vicious.

We don’t see STAB Electric Bolt Beak abusers besides Zekrom, since it’s the only electric with decent Atk, and he isn’t that popular. Fishous is seen on Greninja and we have other abusers like Shift Gear Gyrados-Mega, scarf Kyogre-P, and Shift Gear Swampert-Mega all able to use it if they want.
Even Arceus-Water can use it, and rose up the ranks as a necessity to handle it.

By comparison, Arceus-Electric just became Unranked.

Bolt Beak is coverage, not overpowered STAB that pushes it over the edge.

Some moves are great, but it’s ultimately the Pokémon that can use them that make them overpowered.

With Bolt Beak, who pushes it over the edge? Maybe a suspect can tell us if it even is.
With Fishious Rend, we already know the answer.
Click to expand...
Hard disagree here. I'll copy what I posted in council here, which is Fishious is less problematic than Bolt Beak and my suggest approach is to suspect/QB Bolt Beak and not suspect/suspect Fishious.

The key thing here is that Fishious is only rarely used for coverage on very specific mons (Zacian-C primarily) while Bolt Beak is the premier coverage move in the meta. Saying that Fishious has a better abusers STABwise is not really saying much when it's one abuser in Ash Greninja offensively (Arceus-Water and Poison Heal Waters are not offensive breakers) against multiple abusers in MMY, Deo-A, Zacian-C, PDon, MMX, DGZ.

Bolt Beak has far superior offensive coverage than Fishious, and its notable that the resists and immunities are not important here because you can use other coverage moves for those. Bolt Beak hitting the common Flying- and Water-types in the meta is much superior to Fishious hitting Rock-, Fire-, and Ground- types (Defensive mons it's Yveltal POgre Waterceus Ho-Oh Gyara Slowbro Lugia Steela vs Ho-Oh Fireceus TTar Darm-Z Steelix, with the former mons being far more common and difficult to break past otherwise (hitting the 2 weakness Water-type, for example). Bolt Beak's existence single handedly reduces the viability of certain mons such as Celesteela and Lugia while causing an increased usage of Volt Absorb and making Steelix a viable alternative Steel, while Fishious hasn't really impacted the meta significantly apart from making PDon even more popular and teams running FC more (which is not just for Fishious but also for Bolt Beak as well).

Bolt Beak's raw power and common place on offensive mons such as MG MMY/Deo-A Zac-C etc has meant that checks like Arceus formes, Cresselia, Zamazenta-C, or anything with similar bulk needs to be consistently at near full HP or be Prankster to not get 2HKOed by the move. This also means that many would-be checks that have less bulk than 120/120 are invalidated, which imo is problematic. If Bolt Beak was gone and one were to substitute Fishious in then its important to note that they must run a different coverage move for Water- and Flying- types such as Arceus-Water and Yveltal and thus lose out on coverage for something else. (BTW this means that if these offensive mons needed to break something they still have the option to so its not a massive buff to "stall" before someone comments on that, while if you want electric coverage there is indeed still Volt Tackle/Bolt Strike.

TLDR Bolt Beak is so much better as coverage than Fishious and Fishious really only has 1 offensive abuser that can be argued as problematic. Do something about Bolt Beak and then wait for meta to settle before suspecting/not suspect Fishious.
 
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With the current sample teams I noticed it lacked an H.O. team so I decided to submit one. Here is the team: https://pokepast.es/52d92bc32ea9be02
The main premise of my build is to abuse sticky webs to stop almost all revenge killers, so I can freely use bulky, difficult to remove threats to overpower the opponent.
Zamezenta is my chosen webs setter due to its excellent speed and bulk, which allows it to reliably set up webs throughout the match. Parting Shot is to escape trappers and court change is to switch the opponents hazards on to their side of the field and to switch sticky web onto the opponents side of the field in case they manage to court change my own webs. Taunt is self explanatory, it’s there to stop defog and recovers from my opponent. Taunt also allows Zamazenta to stop opposing imposters from setting up webs and is self impoofed once with a mental herb.
The second member of my team Dialga is used as a safety valve to stop offensive threats I would have a hard time dealing with. It can also sweep weakened teams and force favorable trades.
The next member, Regigigas serves as an imposter resistant status/knock off sponge as well as a lure for steel types and zygarde. It’s coverage options and its immunity to spectral thief gives teams reliant on steel types and Zygarde to stop it a lot of difficulty.
Arceus Ghost is one of this team’s main special attackers. It’s ability mold breaker allows it to ignore ice scales allowing it to break through most specially defensive cores with ease. Since it also has solid bulk, reliable recovery, an immunity to knock off and rapid spin and self-improofed it has the opportunity to set up multiple times over the course of a match on a lot defensive pokemon without a fear of retribution.
My second to last member Mega Gengar was chosen for its ability to punish defoggers and rapid spin users with electrify. With webs up Mega Gengar can easily win games on it’s own once ice scales users have been removed from the game. Gengar also improofs Zekrom which is really important for this team.
The last member of my team zekrom is unique in that it is both an offensive and defensive pokemon. It’s ability fur coat allows it to check Ash Greninja, Darmanitan Zen Galar, Primal Groudon, and Zacian C. and certain Mega Mewtwo X variants. It’s no slouch offensively either with shift gear bolt beak, and multi-attack it can devastate weakened teams.
As for playing the team the first thing to look for is Mega Mewtwo Y, Mega Mewrwo X, and Primal Groudon. These will be common lead pokemon against this team. If you see any of these mons it is usually best to lead with dialga to remove these potential threats with destiny bond. If you don’t see these troublesome threats it’s usually best to lead with zamazenta and just set up sticky webs. If you don’t lead with zamzenta try to capitalize on predicted switches to passive pokemon in order to set up webs. With Regigigas it’s best to activate it’s toxic orb on a predicted spectral thief’s. Once the toxic orb is triggered Regigigas will primarily serve as you switch into paralysis and neutral utility moves and troublesome pokemon like prankster Zygarde and trapping steel types. If the imposter turns into Regigigas, switch to Dialga. Usually it’s best to use set-up and do as much damage as possible with Arceus before using Gengar to remove potential ice scales users that could potentially stop it. Zekrom is my Ash Greninja switch in so if it ever shows up with webs no up switch immediately to Zekrom. If the imposter user imposters Zekrom go to Gengar if you can. If Gengar isn’t alive set up some shift gear boosts and try to take it out.

Team Strengths:
Biggest Strength: Much of the metagame is not prepared for it.
Other Strengths:
1. Stall and Bulky Offense teams that rely on ice scales
2. Hyper offense teams that rely on faster threats
3. Teams that rely on Zygarde and Magic Bounce steel types to defeat Regigigas
4. Teams that rely on Rapid Spin to remove hazards

Team Weaknesses:
Biggest Weakness: Miscellaneous unsets
Other Weaknesses:
1. Paralysis
2. Yveltal
3. Regen-Vest Zygarde
4. Refrigerate Users
5. Aerilate Users
6. Sacred Fire / Will- O - Wisp / Shift Gear + Precipice Blades Primal Groudon variants
8. Court Change

Here are some replays of defeating notable players:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexbh-1181823731-xsmmg2u222dcl6k6w1zwygtxm75mdp7pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexbh-1181333504-o2y3wx8tvbrlrqwmey26pmsv3dp5gr1pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexbh-1185468222-cbr671rw7n0dgjrnfwnh530r8hj2c33pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexbh-1186359539-gnaep8ohpu5hlcx17ijb28p0lio32tnpw
Here are a couple replays depicting how Electrify Gengar can abuse webs to defeat an unprepared opponent: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexbh-1185479658-kw5nf5s4b3eam3bif3f8166e6t9zvghpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexbh-1186444324-n4w7zcft9syhupcpiglvqa21xej7n89pw
Here are some embarrassing fails on my part but I think it is good for showing how not to play the team. These replays also are a good demonstration of this teams weakness to specific unsets:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexbh-1182062553-rwbq12y3nszhyjgufjen6cz6smovrslpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexbh-1185895949-c4o2bcf235o88cnrcjjaict9nz4o8whpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexbh-1186454730-qbfseonlq73ywm4ip1o4fmx7935v5i8pw
Other matches vs low ladder:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexbh-1185454416-evhkwb707heogs49skgrhr8xj67verfpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexbh-1185451977-ce3ljlkn5uvvattorv2gr0eeqqqhedupw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexbh-1185886178-9bm0dhvy3vw2tsxv52f9tzhmc0lw15ppw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexbh-1181908869-z92wspa641yy8ld0wl3v5xw74iqqmnapw


I would just like to give a special shout out to Lazzerpengiun for helping to create the team. Without him/her I would’ve never thought of utilizing webs for H.O..

For the image of the scoreboard below, I'm in third place. My gxe is misleadingly low becuase I used this account before to test other unsuccessful strategies and I was unlucky enough to run into mutiple players in the 1300's who cheesed wins using specific unsets that would likely fail against the rest of the metagame.



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Quick question - Is Curse viable on Giratina (or other defensive Ghost types like Ghostceus)?
I was looking through my old Gen 7 BH teams and I had a Curse Toxic Orb Poison Heal Giratina for some reason, but I do feel like that would work well to help break through defensive mons and force switches. You might also be able to run it with Anchor Shot or something to stall out your opponent's recovery. Idk tho, I've never been the best at theorymonning, and that team was from when I was quite new to BH(and competitive in general).

Edit: Here's the exact set I was using(don't question the rest of the set)
spooky scary skeletons send shivers down my spine (Giratina) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Curse
- Shore Up
- Cosmic Power
- Spectral Thief
 
TechnoMikl said:
Quick question - Is Curse viable on Giratina (or other defensive Ghost types like Ghostceus)?
I was looking through my old Gen 7 BH teams and I had a Curse Toxic Orb Poison Heal Giratina for some reason, but I do feel like that would work well to help break through defensive mons and force switches. You might also be able to run it with Anchor Shot or something to stall out your opponent's recovery. Idk tho, I've never been the best at theorymonning, and that team was from when I was quite new to BH(and competitive in general).

Edit: Here's the exact set I was using(don't question the rest of the set)
spooky scary skeletons send shivers down my spine (Giratina) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Curse
- Shore Up
- Cosmic Power
- Spectral Thief
Click to expand...

That's definitely a cursed set right there. Inherently, curse sets are extremely niche. I would say in gen7 this set would be more viable because of the slower pace that gen. However, in ndbh the meta right now is more offensive / fast paced so it would be harder to get that set in on a defensive mon which you can stall break and kill. On a balanced or offensive team I would not use this set as it would hurt your momentum and the only mons it can kill are either offensive mons you resist or defensive mons which can't switch out after anchor shot The only teams I would recommend using this set on is defensive or stall teams which need a stall breaker to counter similar teams. This set tho can definitely meme on Primal-Groudon if you can trap it. Here's a more "viable" version of your set if you want to use it.

Giratina @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Curse
- Anchor Shot
- Baneful Bunker / Recover / Spectral thief
- Taunt / Recover / Spectral thief
 
I have been having fun with this set

Arceus-Ground @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Thousand Waves / Thousand Arrows
- Electrify
- Taunt / Bolt Beak / Toxic

Dragon Dance: For PP.

Thousand Waves / Thousand Arrows: Trapping vs coverage, oftentimes trapping handles more, as Bolt Beak covers Flying-types already. Thousand Arrows is if you don’t use Bolt Beak and want to use a non-Attacking move.

Electrify: Works like Protect for free heals, and to stall PP after Thousand Waves traps opponents. Electrify perfectly scouts attacks like Core Enforcer, Rapid Spin, Spectral Thief, U-Turn, and Knock Off (before Orb activates).

Taunt: May sound weak, but this set is meant to trap, set-up, Attack, and heal stall with Electrify to allow Poison Heal. And block Recovery, Haze etc.

Toxic: Avoid hitting Imposter, but otherwise once you trap the foe you can prevent U-Turn / Flip Turn switching via Electrify alone. Not to mention break walls like Zygarde-C, and Giratina that typically use Core Enforcer or Haze.

Toxic Spikes support works for allowing you to literally trap, and then Electrify stall your opponent to KO, so you can opt for Taunt or Bolt Beak.

Bolt Beak works well as a KO on Ho-Oh, Kyogre, and PH Arceus-Water @ +1
+1 252 Atk Arceus-Ground Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kyogre-Primal: 406-478 (100.4 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252 Atk Arceus-Ground Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ho-Oh: 406-478 (97.5 - 114.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

+1 252 Atk Arceus-Ground Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus-Water: 364-430 (81.9 - 96.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252 Atk Arceus-Ground Thousand Waves vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Arceus-Steel: 290-344 (65.3 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Finally, a Ground-Type with the Bulk, Speed, Power, and item/ability availability to maximize Poison Heal, thanks to Elecrify.
 
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:ss/dracovish::ss/dracozolt:

Council is starting a suspect on Fishious Rend and Bolt Beak. See this post and others' posts after for reasoning.

Here are the guidelines:
  • All games must be played on the Pokemon Showdown! National Dex BH ladder on a new alt account that has "BORE" in it anywhere, but not separated. You must meet the listed format in order to qualify.
overlabored ✓
bop you are bad X
Click to expand...
  • To qualify for voting, your alt must play a minimum of 28 games, and you must have a minimum GXE of 78. (These are due to change if we find that the reqs are too hard/easy.)
  • The suspect test will end on September 29th (11:59pm CST). Fishious Rend and Bolt Beak will be allowed on the suspect ladder.
  • A super-majority of 60% ban is required for Fishious Rend and Bolt Beak to be banned (note: you will cast ban votes on the moves separately)
  • Post your proof of reqs and your vote in the thread, along with your thoughts if you wish.
    • You MUST FIRST AND FOREMOST PROVIDE AN IMAGE OF THE ALT WITH PROOF OF OWNERSHIP. This is important.
tl;dr:
  • 78 GXE after 28 games with a new alt
    • “BORE” alt with image proof IN THIS THREAD
  • Fishious Rend / Bolt Beak ALLOWED on ladder
  • DEADLINE: September 29th, 2020 @ 11:59 CST
tagging Kris to setup suspect and announcement on PS ladder games
 
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reqs! Hopefully I did this right, as it’s my first time getting reqs for anything.

Fishious Rend: Ban
the lack of type immunities makes this an absolute pain to deal with and there’s so little counterplay to it

Bolt Beak: Do Not Ban
Having a type immunity as common as ground really hurts this, and stuff like groudon or Zygarde-C can just freely switch into it, so in my view it’s not a huge deal.

I used this bulky balance, which worked pretty well on ladder. Like 3 of my losses were to the same guy tho so it can be not-great in certain matchups.
https://pokepast.es/572e1dee7a64b0cc
 
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C31D6EED-76BE-4BDD-8F6F-5CEADAE7A2F5.jpeg


I got the reqs needed to vote. I would like to state that I will be voting for Fishious Rend to remain unbanned, and for Bolt Beak to be banned. As I have stated, Bolt Beak is clearly the bigger problem between the two because it’s almost always the better coverage option. Therefore, it has more viable abusers, and should be dealt with accordingly. Physical Electric mons that used Bolt Beak for STAB (aka Zekrom) will still have access to Bolt Strike, and Magic Guard MMY will still have access to Volt Tackle. These moves are clearly strong enough to still function on the former Bolt Beak abusers (Volt Tackle still deals with Ho-Oh, for example). We aren’t destroying these Pokemon by removing Bolt Beak. The same can be said about Fishious, but Fishious has much more defined abusers than Bolt Beak, which is incredibly splashable, and is therefore a bit easier to deal with as a result.
 
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Bolt Beak: BAN
Fishious Rend: DO NOT BAN

Bolt Beak pushes already good sets like Magic Guard MMY and Zacian-C over the edge. It is perfect to slap on as coverage to make sure you just blow past the "walls" of the meta. I can't say the same about Fishious Rend. It isn't super great as coverage on many things and only has a couple abusers, of which I don't find banworthy or too overwhelming.

Here's the team I used to get these reqs. It is a little passive at times, but it is a stall team. Not having Spectral Thief on Arceus or Zygarde can be a little sketchy at times if you face setup spam, but spreading burns with annoying moves usually helps. Imposter also covers most threats outside of Unburden, which will make you click X unless you get things to go your way.
:bw/arceus-water::bw/ho-oh::bw/giratina::bw/chansey:
 
Screenshot 2020-09-16 at 2.20.47 PM - Edited.png
Screenshot 2020-09-16 at 5.24.57 PM - Edited.png



I kept getting unlucky with low ladder so it took forever to get reqs, but I managed it. I will be voting for a ban on Bolt Beak, and for Fishous Rend to remain unbanned(For Now). Bolt beak is a bigger issue as it 3 Ko's almost all special walls, on top of making Ash Greninja and Zacian almost impossible to deal with outside of Darmitan Zen/ Mega Swampert + Fur Coat Dragon cores. Look at chesskings post above for a more detailed desription. Here are the teams I used to get reqs: https://pokepast.es/eedfb93f157d6776 , https://pokepast.es/4e5fa8272671aedf.
 
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This is my first time getting reqs for anything and also my first post on smogon so if I messed anything up pls lmk.

will be voting ban on bolt beak and do not ban on fishious rend
voting ban on bolt beak for similar reasons to what have already been said, it puts too much pressure on the builder and invalidates too many would-be viable walls.
Even just using a single set as an example - the extremely common LoR/mind blow/bolt beak/filler mg mmy set - there's really not that much that walls it reliably. Generic ice scales arceus forms are 90% 2hkoed by bolt beak after rocks, meaning you generally need a higher bst ice scales wall if you don't want to resort to awkward mons like ice scales arc-ground or type immunity mons that usually lose to unresisted hits or whatever the 4th move is, making them unreliable. The only higher bst ice scales walls that fit that purpose are really gira, zyg and etern, all dragon types smashed by triple axel, and this is just the pressure exerted by a single set abusing bolt beak out of the many there are.

I honestly expected to vote ban on fishious as well when I started laddering but chessking's post pretty much convinced me. The only problematic offensive abuser is gren and it's very possible to make defensive teams that beat gren without weakening your match-up against other stuff much (for example the team below). On top of that, arc-water is only going to become a better gren check if bolt beak gets banned. If bolt beak does get banned it's possible fishious replaces it as the standard physical coverage and pushes it over the edge, but voting ban off that alone would be taking theorymonning way too far.

I used this team: https://pokepast.es/5c2674e73a9224c9
which was surprisingly consistent despite the main breaker only having moves that miss
 
Failed to get a round 30 sadface
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I am against the idea of removing strong moves that are needed for breaking things in bh meta,dont think ppstaling defogs and sleep/paralysis deciding games is a right direction(i see such strats rising)Think the meta is fairly balanced as it is,ph and regenerator are already good abilities and they could get out of hand.Will prob vote no ban and make maybe make a longer post with my thoughts more cohesively

Team used if anyone cares,arc not having spectral rly hurts in ladder at least https://pokepast.es/6d1cb472346b4b5c
 
First post on forums, second time getting reqs because a certain someone didn't like my DMax suspect name. Nice to meet everyone, I'm just a ladder rando who's been playing on and off since gen 6.

Chess and quojova have covered the major points, but just to add on— Beak's not only super splashable to the point where it can just come out of nowhere on any vaguely offensive mon, it's just significantly better in every department than most of the highest BP moves in the game, and is leaps and bounds better than the other hard-hitting electric alternatives. It doesn't carry the risk of a miss that Bolt Strike does, nor the recoil of Volt Tackle, and even outdamages both of those moves much of the time. Doesn't matter if the opponent's got a ground type, because zygod drops to axel ridiculously fast, defensive pdon can still be slapped by other powerful, neutral hits (especially when boosts and chip come into play), and steelix is just stinky.

Clearly, the solution is spike cannon Aegislash.

Gren running rend is far easier to wall, especially considering how FC Waterceus is such a premier physical tank. And considering its inferior coverage, it just isn't anywhere near as influential when it comes to teambuilding.

Since others are doing it, I figure I might as well add my team to the list. It's a relatively fun one featuring MG Beak MMY as the main breaker, with BAT to handle opposing Scales Tina and any other unsuspecting BAT victims. Also has chad purple frog (shoutout to Dino for opening my eyes to the power of swole tadpole). Kinda sucks not having prank haze, especially considering normal type boosters, but somehow pulled off reqs anyway. Team's down below.

eekum bokum

In case it wasn't obvious-

Fishious Rend: DNB
Bolt Beak: BAN

Screen Shot 2020-09-19 at 12.07.20 PM.png
 
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I think both Surging Strikes and Wicked Blow needs to be banned.

Wicked Blow and Surging Strikes seems like OP in BH, and I've seen it on Water/Dark Pokemon using it, mostly Ash-Greninja and Mega Gyarados.
Wicked Blow gives a free crit and giving a free KO because no wall can switch in safely. Surging Strikes with 3 free crits for these Pokemon above is also absolute disaster. Don't think it's fair game, because there's basically no switch in walls or counters when they wield those attacks. Even if you tried blocking Wicked Blow from an Ash-Greninja or a Mega Gyarados in BH Galar with a good Fairy Type like Magearna, you'd be going down to bits when they use Surging Strikes. Same goes for Storm Drain or Water Absorb Pokemon, but those abilities are gimmicks in Balanced Hackmons to check Surging Strikes.
 
Moonlight Tsutarja said:
I think both Surging Strikes and Wicked Blow needs to be banned.

Wicked Blow and Surging Strikes seems like OP in BH, and I've seen it on Water/Dark Pokemon using it, mostly Ash-Greninja and Mega Gyarados.
Wicked Blow gives a free crit and giving a free KO because no wall can switch in safely. Surging Strikes with 3 free crits for these Pokemon above is also absolute disaster. Don't think it's fair game, because there's basically no switch in walls or counters when they wield those attacks. Even if you tried blocking Wicked Blow from an Ash-Greninja or a Mega Gyarados in BH Galar with a good Fairy Type like Magearna, you'd be going down to bits when they use Surging Strikes. Same goes for Storm Drain or Water Absorb Pokemon, but those abilities are gimmicks in Balanced Hackmons to check Surging Strikes.
Click to expand...


Wicked Blow and Surging Strikes are far less exploitable than Bolt Beak, though. While the crits do tend to be annoying if you're using a strength sap physical wall, these moves don't seem nearly as influential. Proper Fur Coat mons can often stomach these attacks, and considering how rocky helmet is a pretty solid option on physical tanks for whittling down physical threats, these moves are likely to be punished instead of just absorbed. Surging Strikes in particular. just kind of drops dead thanks to helmet. You pretty much only see wicked blow on gyara and gren, with a few exceptions, and Surging Strikes is even less prevalent. I don't think either is worth a ban.
 
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I will to be voting dnb on Fishious Rend.

Controversially I also do not feel like bolt beak is so broken that it deserves to be banned. The meta seems quite balanced at the moment and I feel like while it does have a presence it is not overbearing. Whith good building any team can be prepared to deal with it.
For that reason I will also vote dnb on Bolt Beak

Team I used at the end of the suspect if anyone is interested https://pokepast.es/63cf8a03a380f6fd
Mega Abomasnow OP
 
I'm not sure which account I laddered for Nat Dex BH, so I understand that my vote won't be counted for right now. I'll edit this message once I get the reqs, but I need to first get my opinion out there.

I will be voting dnb on Fishious Rend + Bolt beak. My reasoning is simply that, although they have a lot of power, no good mons get Stab on them (other than Ash Gren and Zekrom, but that's the reason they're so good). Both of these moves are walled by Red Orb Groudon (which I know is P-Don but I'm not getting flamed for saying he's not banned), who also beats almost all of the abusers of this. LightningRod is a super common ability right now on speedier mons as it reliably gives them setup on anything slower than them, while Desolate Land is great as a base ability on countless mons.

The moves have a lot of power, but due to the fact that they're resisted by a large chunk of mons and rely on your mon being super fast or your opponent switching into something w/o physical bulk I don't think they're the biggest problem. I'm not going to do calcs rn cuz I'm lazy but just trust me that there's only a few mons that are really good with this move. I don't think any of these moves need to be banned. IMO, V-Create is WAY better in the current meta, and even that doesn't need to be banned. That's all I got.
 
There is a lot of questionable declarations here that make me wonder if you are familiar with the meta.
Badger said:
My reasoning is simply that, although they have a lot of power, no good mons get Stab on them (other than Ash Gren and Zekrom, but that's the reason they're so good).
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That's not the reason why Bolt Beak is suspected. It is the most splashable coverage move because it has consistently strong power with minimal drawbacks, while offering really good type coverage by hitting Water- and Flying-types super-effectively while hitting Steel-types neutrally. The few resists/immunities to this move are easily hit hard by the STAB moves of the mon using them or other common coverage moves such as Precipice Blades and Triple Axel. In addition, 170 BP easily outdamages a ton of STAB moves, as only 120 BP+ moves actually outdamage them with STAB. This means for types such as Fairy, Steel, and more these moves are the strongest no drawback moves for them.
In addition Fishious Rend alone makes Ashninja skyrocket in viability, and its not the only STAB abuser of this move. Other Water-types, while slower or weaker, can easily use Fishious Rend to exert strong pressure, even from defensive mons such as Arceus-Water.
Badger said:
Both of these moves are walled by Red Orb Groudon (which I know is P-Don but I'm not getting flamed for saying he's not banned), who also beats almost all of the abusers of this.
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Like I said, resists to these moves, such as PDon and Dragon-types are hit by the common STAB or coverage moves run alongside these moves, such as Precipice Blades/Earth Power, Triple Axel/Ice Beam, Photon Geyser, etc. PDon also definitely does not beat almost all the abusers of these moves. Ashninja 2HKOs with Wicked Blow. MMY and Deo-A plows through with STAB or Ground coverage. Zacian-C clicks Precipice Blades and drops PDon.
Badger said:
LightningRod is a super common ability right now on speedier mons as it reliably gives them setup on anything slower than them, while Desolate Land is great as a base ability on countless mons.
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This is completely false. Lightning Rod is completely non-existent in the meta because the abusers need to be self improof, so the only possible user is Mega Gengar, which while was a great set in gen 7, simply cannot afford LRod in this meta with the amount of faster mons and bulk. Prankster completely shuts it down while Ice Scales makes it very difficult to break through. MGar almost needs Mold Breaker in the meta to break teams, which it cannot do with Lightning Rod and Quiver Dance.
Desolate Land is also completely non-existent outside of being forced on PDon. DGZ and other Fire-types would rather use abilities such as Mold Breaker or Tough Claws/Adaptability/Tinted Lens. Its defensive utility is extremely niche because only Fire-types can realistically justify using this as a Water-immunity. Fireceus and Ho-Oh both would prefer other abilities, with Magic Bounce for both and other abilities such as Magic Guard and Aerilate and Volt Absorb for Ho-Oh and Levitate for Arceus. (Which btw the only reason why Volt Absorb Ho-Oh is even run is because of Bolt Beak prevalence).
Badger said:
The moves have a lot of power, but due to the fact that they're resisted by a large chunk of mons and rely on your mon being super fast or your opponent switching into something w/o physical bulk I don't think they're the biggest problem.
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Again, the resisting part doesn't matter because you primarily use these moves either for unwallable STAB (Ashninja) or insane coverage (every Bolt Beak user). Your mon being super fast is pretty irrelevant because the fastest mons are always the most dangerous mons and all the best breakers in this meta are the fast mons that can abuse at least one of these two moves (Ashninja, DGZ, MMX, MMY, Zac-C, Deo-A) with the sole exception being the worse MGar. The physical bulk is not justified, MMY does 45ish to neutral Arceus formes (120 120 bulk) with Life Orb Bolt Beak. This means it can easily 2HKO most neutral targets with minor chip such as from one U-turn/Volt Switch or a spike.
And for the unwallable STAB part Ashninja with Fishious Rend forces a very fat Prankster (resist or Zygod) or Fur Coat/4x resist (latter is not common or viable enough to justify on most teams). Bolt Beak then comes in to take out Water-types that switch into Rend.
Badger said:
just trust me that there's only a few mons that are really good with this move.
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Lets see, Ashninja, MMY, Zac-C, Deo-A, MMX, DGZ as the main fast strong abusers, while slower threats such as Garchomp, PDon, Gyara, etc also do numbers on the switch. Wouldn't say thats a few when they are the best offensive mons in the meta (and composing of nearly all of them, with the exception being mono Special attackers or attackers that cannot fit, such as MGar and Mega Diancie).
Badger said:
IMO, V-Create is WAY better in the current meta, and even that doesn't need to be banned.
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V-create is not spammable. You can click Bolt Beak on something like Arceus and do 40+ with no drawbacks and proceed to click your STAB move or other coverage move for the finish. If you clicked V-create in this fast defensive mon meta it is likely that you are now outsped and forced out. Not to mention V-create having less PP.
 
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Voting No Ban on Bolt Beak!
Voting Ban on FIshous Rend.

I have found that Bolt Beak is not a problem for me; Fishous Rend, in part, due to Ash-Greninja, is.
Bolt Beak only really cost me a game once during this suspect, running my current team.

The counter arguments are that Bolt Beak is strong due to being Super Effective.

My argument is that Ash-Greninja's STAB + Rain / Strong Jaws = a 1.5 x 1.5 = 2.25 boost, ultimately lets Ash-Greninja hit harder than a Super Effective Bolt Beak ( 2x boost), off of a neutral attack.

The Pokemon weak to Bolt Beak are Arceus-Water, which is a high-ranked Pokemon result of resisting Fishous Rend itself... and Ash-Greninja, which is a result of the popularity and power of Fishous Rend itself... plus Ho-Oh, which is also KOed by Fishous Rend itself; Yveltal, which is about as common as Kyogre-Primal... In addition to random uncommon mons like: Gyarados-Mega

Ultimately, the 2 highest ranked Pokemon hit super effectively by Bolt Beak, are ranked high in spite of Bolt Beak, and due to the popularity and power of Fishous Rend itself...

If Bolt Beak was banned, Kyogre-P would oftentimes also be 1HKO'd by Bolt Strike anyways, Ho-Oh has about the same physical bulk as Kyogre-P, so the same is also true for it. Defensive Kyogre-P sets have also become less common, not because of Bolt Beak, but because Ice Scales has begun making Pokemon with superior typing, even if they have lower neutral bulk, viable Ice Scale users (i.e. Latias-M).

Fishous Rend seems to have the bigger impact and give use to higher ranked Pokemon, while Bolt Beak checks their offensive / defense dominance,

TLDR: Fishous Rend is shaping the meta, Bolt Beak is reacting to it.

I quoted my points earlier, below this list:
Champion Leon said:
I think we should quick ban Fishous, Suspect Bolt Beak.

There is no equivalent Ash-Greninja for Electric-types, and that makes it harder to abuse, there is a natural immunity to it in Ground-typing, shared by common Pokémon like Zygarde-C, and Groudon-P.

You cannot argue that Desolate Land counts as a complete check for certain, bc you could slow pivot in the Primordial Sea user and nullify it by coming in next. So it’s a draw for those abilities.

Lets call a spade a spade: Fishious is vicious.

We don’t see STAB Electric Bolt Beak abusers besides Zekrom, since it’s the only electric with decent Atk, and he isn’t that popular. Fishous is seen on Greninja and we have other abusers like Shift Gear Gyrados-Mega, scarf Kyogre-P, and Shift Gear Swampert-Mega all able to use it if they want.
Even Arceus-Water can use it, and rose up the ranks as a necessity to handle it.

By comparison, Arceus-Electric just became Unranked.

Bolt Beak is coverage, not overpowered STAB that pushes it over the edge.

Some moves are great, but it’s ultimately the Pokémon that can use them that make them overpowered.

With Bolt Beak, who pushes it over the edge? Maybe a suspect can tell us if it even is.
With Fishious Rend, we already know the answer.
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Edit: I would also like to nominate Arceus-Fire to rise to B+ rank, as I feel it is at least on par with Gyarados-M, as it can focus on Fur Coat, without fear of Magic Bounce / Imposter burning it back, and can score some key resists that it shares with Arceus-Water: Ice, Steel, Fire, while also sporting additional key resists: Fairy. Bug (U-Turn).

While Ho-Oh sports an immunity to Ground, resistance to Fighting, it basically needs to hold Heavy-Duty Boots, or run Magic Guard, while Arceus-Fire doesn't fear the Electric offense, and can maintain a resistance to Ice, plus it has better physical Bulk, and a great Speed tier (i.e Outspeed Diancie-Mega).

Ultimately, I think it's overall general utility can rival Ho-Oh, and to an extent, Darmanitan-Z.

Passive Aggressive (Arceus-Fire) @ Rocky Helmet / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Leech Seed
- Anchor Shot
- Shore Up
- Will-O-Wisp / Lava Plume

This is a set I have been using, which allows it to be Imposterproof, and spread status to the opponent, while trapping to rack up damage, including via Rocky Helmet. I use it as an Improof to my U-Turner for free Rocky Helmet chip, and as a check to -ate Diancie-Mega, thanks to its resistance to Fairy, and V-Create, while threatening with Anchor Shot. it's also a great scout for Magic Bounce, if using Will-o-Wisp, without fear of getting statused back (unlike Arceus-Water).

Edit: By Default, if Fishous Rend gets banned; that puts it much closer to Arceus-Water in terms of overall walling Capabilities.
 
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