National Dex General Information and Simple Questions Thread

[MZ]

Ok guys this is not a general discussion thread nor the place to have a back and forth with people.

Gigantamax will not be treated separately for the same reason it wasn’t in OU, you can find a ton of reasoning around the OU suspect or just go back to posts made here. End of story.

We don’t know when we’ll know about UU because it’s hard to know when some kind of long-term interest threshold has been passed.

There are no plans for a natdex Ubers because Ubers plans to stay reduced dex in line with our standard tiers. AG fills the niche of “what if I really have to play with things off the natdex OU banlist” and I can’t really imagine that changing anytime soon.

Just because PS is a sim doesn’t mean we have unlimited resources to add as many ladders as we want with further smaller differences with more niche audiences so we’re really trying to catch the most broad appeal here, with ubers for galar dex and ag for National dex.

I have no clue why the room is private but I’m not super connected with the room and will start asking around.

I hope I’ve hit on all the leftover questions, doing this from mobile. Please stop posting on gigantamax, that simply isn’t going to change, the arguments have been gone over and over but it’d simply be a terrible idea to treat it separately

 

[Predator145]

When WILL we have a definitive answer on whether or not UU will exist?

They're dodging that one for now. After D max is gone I'll learn OU to play just to "show interest". But don't get your hopes up. Shame really, first GF gives us the finger with Dexit. Now SD does it too.

 

[sumwun]

When WILL we have a definitive answer on whether or not UU will exist?

They're dodging that one for now. So don't get your hopes up. After D max is gone I'll learn OU. But don't get your hopes up. Shame really, first GF gives us the finger with Dexit. Now SD does it too.

If you really want NDUU, maybe you can try posting a separate UU thread, like how the Doubles and LC subforums have their own UU threads. Are we allowed to do that here?

 

[N_Mareanie]

I would love a NatDex UU meta, and wouldn't mind hosting one either. I don't know if it's allowed, but I don't think it hurts if we just set up a small thread here, and then proceed to challenge each other in ''National Dex'' but just without the Pokemon that would be banned (so the Pokemon in OU and above, if we're going by the 4.52% cutoff). If this is allowed, I think that would really help with starting to get people involved and potentially creating more interest among the people. Maybe this should be discussed further in DMs with one of the leader to not derail this thread, but I would be totally up for creating a meta like that for now.

 

[Cabneet]

I would love a NatDex UU meta, and wouldn't mind hosting one either. I don't know if it's allowed, but I don't think it hurts if we just set up a small thread here, and then proceed to challenge each other in ''National Dex'' but just without the Pokemon that would be banned (so the Pokemon in OU and above, if we're going by the 4.52% cutoff). If this is allowed, I think that would really help with starting to get people involved and potentially creating more interest among the people. Maybe this should be discussed further in DMs with one of the leader to not derail this thread, but I would be totally up for creating a meta like that for now.

I sincerely think it would be a much better idea to simply follow the OU cutoff from last gen and make adjustments as necessary.
I believe SputnikGT outlined what mons would be UU if we went by current usage statistics... it's disgusting. Shit would take forever to fix.
Gen 8 only added like 30 new evolved mons anyway, it's not a lot to keep track of.
Frankly just adding EVERY gen 8 mon into UU and banning as we go would probably literally be faster than fixing up what it would be based on usage.

 

[Sputnik]

I sincerely think it would be a much better idea to simply follow the OU cutoff from last gen and make adjustments as necessary.
I believe SputnikGT outlined what mons would be UU if we went by current usage statistics... it's disgusting. Shit would take forever to fix.
Gen 8 only added like 30 new evolved mons anyway, it's not a lot to keep track of.
Frankly just adding EVERY gen 8 mon into UU and banning as we go would probably literally be faster than fixing up what it would be based on usage.

I remember calcing the usage cutoff based off of the old one and it honestly wasn't too much better. UU lost some things but it still featured a laundry list of previous (or current) top threats, including Hydreigon, Kommo-o, Skarmory, Victini, Mega Zam, Mega Sab, Mega Scizor, both Mega Zards, Blacephalon, and Dugtrio. And thats just the tip of the iceberg. Not to mention the fact that Deoxys Defense is in the tier too and Mew is locked away in OU. This UU will be wack no matter how you slice it...if it happens. And we don't know if it will.

They've also stated that its not a top priority to get a UU going for right now, which I understand.

 

[N_Mareanie]

I don’t think the hectic metagame is a problem, since if you get the right people and use the kokoloko system, all the absolute busted shit will be eliminated within a week or two. But we’ll see when it’s created when the time comes.

 

[sumwun]

What's a good way to choose leads during team previews? In the past few months, I just assumed the opponent will use a stealth rock lead and lead with whichever one of my Pokemon best checks the opponent's stealth rock user(s).

 

[Ellicrum]

This is a question concerning the National Dex AG and the current distribution of Dynamax (probably that the subject was already raised, but I didn't find anything). The current situation allows the dynamaxing of the « big legendaries », that is to say those who generally reach the 670 base stats (for example Kyogre or Zacian). I inevitably fall into Theorymon, but will Game Freak in a future game with 890 pokemons seriously authorize the use of Dynamax for game mascots? Without taking too much risk, I'm almost sure not. From the moment when the gen 8 legendaries (Zacian, Zamazenta and Eternatus) cannot use this mechanism, it would be completely absurd to allow it on the other hand for Xerneas or Yveltal

If ever the format policy should change on this point, then the use of Dynamax should be prohibited to « restricted pokemons » (as defined by the VGC). The legendaries concerned would then be Mewtwo, Lugia, Ho-Oh, Kyogre, Groudon, Rayquaza, Dialga, Palkia, Giratina, Reshiram, Zekrom, Kyurem, Xerneas, Yveltal, Zygarde, Cosmog, Cosmoem, Solgaleo, Lunala and Necrozma. Even if some of the list don't exceed the 670 base stats (Kyurem-Base, Zygarde-50%, Cosmog and Cosmoem), there is no logical reason to allow them this device. On the other hand, Arceus, Hoopa-Unbound, Regigigas and Slaking (even if they reach 670), are not considered as « restricted pokemons » (the first two are mythical pokemons) and can then logically benefit from Dynamax (as Mew can already do it)

 

[Ropalme1914]

This is a question concerning the National Dex AG and the current distribution of Dynamax (probably that the subject was already raised, but I didn't find anything). The current situation allows the dynamaxing of the « big legendaries », that is to say those who generally reach the 670 base stats (for example Kyogre or Zacian). I inevitably fall into Theorymon, but will Game Freak in a future game with 890 pokemons seriously authorize the use of Dynamax for game mascots? Without taking too much risk, I'm almost sure not. From the moment when the gen 8 legendaries (Zacian, Zamazenta and Eternatus) cannot use this mechanism, it would be completely absurd to allow it on the other hand for Xerneas or Yveltal

If ever the format policy should change on this point, then the use of Dynamax should be prohibited to « restricted pokemons » (as defined by the VGC). The legendaries concerned would then be Mewtwo, Lugia, Ho-Oh, Kyogre, Groudon, Rayquaza, Dialga, Palkia, Giratina, Reshiram, Zekrom, Kyurem, Xerneas, Yveltal, Zygarde, Cosmog, Cosmoem, Solgaleo, Lunala and Necrozma. Even if some of the list don't exceed the 670 base stats (Kyurem-Base, Zygarde-50%, Cosmog and Cosmoem), there is no logical reason to allow them this device. On the other hand, Arceus, Hoopa-Unbound, Regigigas and Slaking (even if they reach 670), are not considered as « restricted pokemons » (the first two are mythical pokemons) and can then logically benefit from Dynamax (as Mew can already do it)

Some of those legendaries, like Zekrom and Necrozma-DM, are on the game, and if you hack them, they can use Dynamax just fine, so they did intend for them to use it (or at least some of them, I wouldn't be surprised for a Geomancy nerf on the Sinnoh remakes if Xerneas comes back, but for now, there's no reason to assume they wouldn't be able to).

 

[Ellicrum]

Some of those legendaries, like Zekrom and Necrozma-DM, are on the game, and if you hack them, they can use Dynamax just fine, so they did intend for them to use it (or at least some of them, I wouldn't be surprised for a Geomancy nerf on the Sinnoh remakes if Xerneas comes back, but for now, there's no reason to assume they wouldn't be able to).

I effectively wondered about the hypothetical possibility of dynamaxing for the legendaries who will be distributed. But since I thought that hacking was deceptive (even capable of changing the game's mechanics), I paid no more attention to it. But from the moment there is nothing in the game code that prohibits Dynamax for the concerned pokemons, then I didn't speak out (I wonder then how they justified in the game so that the gen 8 trio couldn't take advantage of the mechanics)

 

[Cabneet]

I effectively wondered about the hypothetical possibility of dynamaxing for the legendaries who will be distributed. But since I thought that hacking was deceptive (even capable of changing the game's mechanics), I paid no more attention to it. But from the moment there is nothing in the game code that prohibits Dynamax for the concerned pokemons, then I didn't speak out (I wonder then how they justified in the game so that the gen 8 trio couldn't take advantage of the mechanics)

I'm never buying Swsh but I'd guess it has something to do with the fact that the gen 8 trio has a theme of "Giant slaying"?
It might have more to do with the fact that they learn moves that specifically target dynamax rather than the fact that they are box legends.

 

[TURBODERP]

What's the reason that Hidden Power and Pursuit are still in, Toxic/Knock Off still have their broad(er) distributions? Not trying to sound accusatory or come off as attacking the entire mode BTW.

I'm probably in the minority on this one, but it really seems Gamefreak actively doesn't want the former two to be things at all anymore (Gen 6's lack of HP Fairy also fits with this), and wants to restrict the distribution of the latter. These changes are similar to mechanics changes (and yes, they're nerfs for the most part) but other retroactive changes like movepool additions (including formerly signature moves) and Aegislash's BST change have been implemented into National Dex. It's not like in prior gens big changes and nerfs to mechanics weren't implemented: the removal of Type-gems was a thing from Gen 5 to 6 IIRC, and so was the hard nerf to weather and the decrease in Hidden Power's BP, while Gen 7 had Burn's damage halved which was pretty darn big as well as changing Paralysis' speed drop percentage. Heck, once we found out recently that Grassy/Electric/Psychic Terrain were too high, those values were changed for NatDex OU (and I think for Gen 7 retroactively?). And it's not like Pursuit and Hidden Power are the cornerstones of competitive singles without which it'll all collapse-if anything, Pursuit's trapping ability is one of the most uncompetitive-but-still-not-TOO-broken things and Hidden Power gives unnecessary coverage for offensive threats (the use of Hidden Power on overtly defensive mons was more limited).

Maybe Gamefreak's stance on Pursuit, Hidden Power, Toxic, and Knock Off will change next gen or with the release of Giga Sword and Shield, but I feel that at least for now it should be followed. I know this is an unofficial format, and I'd imagine that most players still want all the options, which I get, but to me it feels a little bit fake to take the "good" bits of Gen 8 such as expansion of movepools (including former signature moves which IMO is fantastic) and just ignore the mostly-nerfs (except the nerf to Aegislash).

 

[Ropalme1914]

Should Smeargle really get an updated movepool? I know its because of Sketch, but it does kinda bypass the rule of "no updated movesets", and even its extremely rare, we had instances of Sketch not working on some moves

 

[sumwun]

What's the reason that Hidden Power and Pursuit are still in, Toxic/Knock Off still have their broad(er) distributions? Not trying to sound accusatory or come off as attacking the entire mode BTW.

I'm probably in the minority on this one, but it really seems Gamefreak actively doesn't want the former two to be things at all anymore (Gen 6's lack of HP Fairy also fits with this), and wants to restrict the distribution of the latter. These changes are similar to mechanics changes (and yes, they're nerfs for the most part) but other retroactive changes like movepool additions (including formerly signature moves) and Aegislash's BST change have been implemented into National Dex. It's not like in prior gens big changes and nerfs to mechanics weren't implemented: the removal of Type-gems was a thing from Gen 5 to 6 IIRC, and so was the hard nerf to weather and the decrease in Hidden Power's BP, while Gen 7 had Burn's damage halved which was pretty darn big as well as changing Paralysis' speed drop percentage. Heck, once we found out recently that Grassy/Electric/Psychic Terrain were too high, those values were changed for NatDex OU (and I think for Gen 7 retroactively?). And it's not like Pursuit and Hidden Power are the cornerstones of competitive singles without which it'll all collapse-if anything, Pursuit's trapping ability is one of the most uncompetitive-but-still-not-TOO-broken things and Hidden Power gives unnecessary coverage for offensive threats (the use of Hidden Power on overtly defensive mons was more limited).

Maybe Gamefreak's stance on Pursuit, Hidden Power, Toxic, and Knock Off will change next gen or with the release of Giga Sword and Shield, but I feel that at least for now it should be followed. I know this is an unofficial format, and I'd imagine that most players still want all the options, which I get, but to me it feels a little bit fake to take the "good" bits of Gen 8 such as expansion of movepools (including former signature moves which IMO is fantastic) and just ignore the mostly-nerfs (except the nerf to Aegislash).

I think the real answer is that Pokemon is a game. Everything in Pokemon is subjective, fake, and made up. Why should one game feel any more fake than another? As far as I know, allowing removed moves was done by the moderators, so only they know the real answer. I'm not really sure we're allowed to discuss this stuff in this thread, so I hope we get a different thread soon after the Dynamax test so we can publicly discuss (and maybe vote) how to handle the moves and items.

My personal opinion is that Smogon's fan-made formats are intended for the people who sometimes don't like Game Freak's stance on things. If you want to play Pokemon the way Game Freak intended, why are you playing this, not Battle Stadium or VGC? Also if pursuit or hidden power turn out to be broken, then we can simply ban the broken moves like we did with shadow tag. No need to ban over 100 other moves along with them.

 

[UltraxBlade]

What's the reason that Hidden Power and Pursuit are still in, Toxic/Knock Off still have their broad(er) distributions? Not trying to sound accusatory or come off as attacking the entire mode BTW.

I'm probably in the minority on this one, but it really seems Gamefreak actively doesn't want the former two to be things at all anymore (Gen 6's lack of HP Fairy also fits with this), and wants to restrict the distribution of the latter. These changes are similar to mechanics changes (and yes, they're nerfs for the most part) but other retroactive changes like movepool additions (including formerly signature moves) and Aegislash's BST change have been implemented into National Dex. It's not like in prior gens big changes and nerfs to mechanics weren't implemented: the removal of Type-gems was a thing from Gen 5 to 6 IIRC, and so was the hard nerf to weather and the decrease in Hidden Power's BP, while Gen 7 had Burn's damage halved which was pretty darn big as well as changing Paralysis' speed drop percentage. Heck, once we found out recently that Grassy/Electric/Psychic Terrain were too high, those values were changed for NatDex OU (and I think for Gen 7 retroactively?). And it's not like Pursuit and Hidden Power are the cornerstones of competitive singles without which it'll all collapse-if anything, Pursuit's trapping ability is one of the most uncompetitive-but-still-not-TOO-broken things and Hidden Power gives unnecessary coverage for offensive threats (the use of Hidden Power on overtly defensive mons was more limited).

Maybe Gamefreak's stance on Pursuit, Hidden Power, Toxic, and Knock Off will change next gen or with the release of Giga Sword and Shield, but I feel that at least for now it should be followed. I know this is an unofficial format, and I'd imagine that most players still want all the options, which I get, but to me it feels a little bit fake to take the "good" bits of Gen 8 such as expansion of movepools (including former signature moves which IMO is fantastic) and just ignore the mostly-nerfs (except the nerf to Aegislash).

On the subject of distribution of moves like Knock Off, this is how transfer moves have always worked in the past: Pokémon that could learn the move in a previous game could be transferred in with that move, even if there is no other way for them to learn it in the current game. Sword and Shield will still be able to transfer in Pokémon from older games that are in the Galar dex once Pokémon Home is released, and while we cannot say 100% for sure there is no reason to believe that transferred Pokémon will be unable to use moves they come in with that weren’t removed from the game as a whole, and it is reasonable to assume that the transfers will work the same as before in this regard. One premise of NatDex as a format is that we assume that Home is already released, so these moves would be obtainable on these Pokémon.

The rest of the format is built on keeping things in that were transferrable in the past, namely all Pokémon and all moves, assuming the same transfer mechanics we have had in the past and anything removed in Gen 8 instead being unchanged from their Gen 7 counterparts.

Any changes to the functionality of things in Gen 8 that would affect the removed moves and Pokémon still affect them as if they were transferrable: Tapus are affected by the terrain nerf, for example, as this is a general mechanical change. Non-Galar dex Pokémon that learn Rapid Spin still get it with 50 power and a speed boost. A transferred Aegislash would have its stats updated to reflect the nerf, just as Pokémon have received stat buffs in the past. A move or Pokémon that had its stats changed in a new game has always applied the newest version to the transferred Pokémon, and all Pokémon are affected by any overall mechanical changes.

Items, such as the type gems, have never been transferrable across generations, unlike Pokémon and moves. As such, removal of items that are no longer obtainable is justified. This is where NatDex makes a few key exceptions, specifically allowing for the return of signature items of removed Pokémon that have been obtainable since their introduction in any game that has their respective Pokémon and are important to those Pokémon’s identities (Arceus plates, Genesect drives, Soul Dew, legendary orbs, etc.), and Mega Stones and Z-Crystals to allow for the return of their respective mechanics, following the precedent of Mega Evolution’s return in Gen 7 after Gen 6.

 

[sumwun]

Items, such as the type gems, have never been transferrable across generations,

unnecessary nitpick: Held items in RSE can transfer to DPP. Consequently, DPP is the only generation that retains all the TMs from the previous generation.

 

[UltraxBlade]

unnecessary nitpick: Held items in RSE can transfer to DPP. Consequently, DPP is the only generation that retains all the TMs from the previous generation.

Actually didn’t know that, neat.

 

[Cabneet]

What's the reason that Hidden Power and Pursuit are still in, Toxic/Knock Off still have their broad(er) distributions? Not trying to sound accusatory or come off as attacking the entire mode BTW.

I'm probably in the minority on this one, but it really seems Gamefreak actively doesn't want the former two to be things at all anymore (Gen 6's lack of HP Fairy also fits with this), and wants to restrict the distribution of the latter. These changes are similar to mechanics changes (and yes, they're nerfs for the most part) but other retroactive changes like movepool additions (including formerly signature moves) and Aegislash's BST change have been implemented into National Dex. It's not like in prior gens big changes and nerfs to mechanics weren't implemented: the removal of Type-gems was a thing from Gen 5 to 6 IIRC, and so was the hard nerf to weather and the decrease in Hidden Power's BP, while Gen 7 had Burn's damage halved which was pretty darn big as well as changing Paralysis' speed drop percentage. Heck, once we found out recently that Grassy/Electric/Psychic Terrain were too high, those values were changed for NatDex OU (and I think for Gen 7 retroactively?). And it's not like Pursuit and Hidden Power are the cornerstones of competitive singles without which it'll all collapse-if anything, Pursuit's trapping ability is one of the most uncompetitive-but-still-not-TOO-broken things and Hidden Power gives unnecessary coverage for offensive threats (the use of Hidden Power on overtly defensive mons was more limited).

Maybe Gamefreak's stance on Pursuit, Hidden Power, Toxic, and Knock Off will change next gen or with the release of Giga Sword and Shield, but I feel that at least for now it should be followed. I know this is an unofficial format, and I'd imagine that most players still want all the options, which I get, but to me it feels a little bit fake to take the "good" bits of Gen 8 such as expansion of movepools (including former signature moves which IMO is fantastic) and just ignore the mostly-nerfs (except the nerf to Aegislash).

Gamefreak have absolutely no idea how to balance their game, regardless of format.
While certain things like toxic distribution being nerfed MIGHT be viewed as a positive change, to most players it's still a case of "two steps forward, thirty steps back"
So fuck it, just disregard what dumb shit Gamefreak tries to do. I trust the staff here at smogon INFINITELY more than I trust some greedy japanese businessmen who literally hold back innovation so they can spread their few good ideas as thin as possible.

 

[VCrakeV]

What set(s) does Aegislash tend to run?

 

[sumwun]

What set(s) does Aegislash tend to run?

Aegislash @ leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy nature
- king's shield
- shadow ball
- toxic
- shadow sneak/substitute
source

 

[Sputnik]

What set(s) does Aegislash tend to run?

The above SubToxic is a great choice (and it's best overall set) but Aegislash can also run Choice Band and Specs effectively, as well as SD for a bit riskier but potentially higher reward wallbreaker. Weakness Policy sets make for funny sweepers on less-serious Screen Teams too if you're into that sort of thing.

 

[VCrakeV]

The above SubToxic is a great choice (and it's best overall set) but Aegislash can also run Choice Band and Specs effectively, as well as SD for a bit riskier but potentially higher reward wallbreaker. Weakness Policy sets make for funny sweepers on less-serious Screen Teams too if you're into that sort of thing.

I'm not looking for a set to use, just wondering what I should be prepared to run into (i.e what is most common), which I guess is the sub/tox set outlined above.

 

[sumwun]

1) Firstly, communication has been rather sparse from us over the last few weeks. I'd like to fill in everyone a little about what's been going on in National Dex OU behind the scenes. Firstly, we are still discussing what defines a National Dex format. We plan to have a consistent tiering policy for National Dex up soon; this may or may not have a large impact on the tier, but I'd like to mention this because I don't want to surprise anyone with a big change. This is because National Dex formats all need to be consistent with each other, and this means that site leaders and tier leaders for both National Dex AG and OU need to all agree on what constitutes a National Dex format. This is something we could not discuss prior to release because we were unable about how SwSh would structure Dexit, but nonetheless this discussion has been going on for a while and we hope to have a full decision and a tiering policy up soon.

Now that Dynamax is gone, can we do this next? Or is something else (like maybe mega Blastoise or arena trap) more urgent?
Edit: Can we please figure this out before suspecting any mega stones, in case we decide to ban all mega stones and move on to non-mega suspects?

 

[VCrakeV]

Is there any reason to use Deo-D instead of Mew? I'm looking for a check to Lele and cm Magearna, and I figure one of these with cm could work.