Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

[Solaros & Lunaris]

Here’s a very basic offensive core which I think VoltTurn can use as a starting point for teams. The most obvious thing about the duo is Iron Bundle’s free Quark Drive activation, meaning that it is simply impossible to outrun and must be dealt with defensively. The combination of Hydro Pump and Freeze-Dry is not only perfect coverage, but it defeats every Ground-type in the tier (this is pretty unique to Iron Bundle; previous Water-type breakers like Ash-Greninja couldn’t beat Gastrodon). In addition, U-turn and Flip Turn make for very simple pivoting in and out of their defensive answers, and Heavy-Duty Boots ensures that entry hazards are less of an issue than they usually are. A pretty solid addition to this is Mega Medicham, who really abuses the free switch-ins that these two force (with the added benefit of nuking Ferrothorn, Kyurem, and Clodsire, who can annoy these two).


A pretty interesting thing about Clodsire is Water Absorb and its Toxic immunity, which grants it alot of sustainability and unique traits that most Ground-types would kill for (namely, absolutely shitting on Toxapex). Relative to Gastrodon, it is also much less passive between setting hazards, Toxic, and a somewhat meaty Earthquake. Clodsire also synergises with other, more offensive Ground-types like Great Tusk and offensive Garchomp, who appreciate relieving defensive duties to be more reckless with attacking. Overall, a very solid addition for balance teams, not just stall.


These two members of the ruin quartet are probably the biggest offenders of power creep this generation, but I personally don’t see them as too overwhelming because there’s so much other crazy shit. Lydia pointed out above that Chien-Pao reslly struggles to beat every one of its checks, as well as needing to choose between Sacred Sword, Tera Blast, and priority in its last slot and facing revenge killing attempts from nearly everything. Chi-Yu, on the other hand, is much more prone to being overwhelmed offensively in exchange for being thoroughly unwallable defensively. It’s even Pursuit-resistant, turning the rare CB Weavile into a free kill. Going forward, I do expect these guys to be watched closer, but Chi-Yu seems especially underrated right now.

 

[bogglywoods]

Are there any good/more consistent alternatives that anyone has found with Annihilape? I've been running the standard Rest/Sleep Talk set and it's good, but kind of inconsistent. He either gets away with Rage Fist snowballing or he gets hit with a good BP super effective move in my experience, and I'm wondering if there's anything similar but more consistent even if it's less good? Part of it is also that I don't want to get too attached to the guy in the event he gets banned.

Also, just in general what does everyone think about Annihilape in NatDex? Has anyone else been having more consistent results with him on the ladder?

 

[jawsome274]

Are there any good/more consistent alternatives that anyone has found with Annihilape? I've been running the standard Rest/Sleep Talk set and it's good, but kind of inconsistent. He either gets away with Rage Fist snowballing or he gets hit with a good BP super effective move in my experience, and I'm wondering if there's anything similar but more consistent even if it's less good? Part of it is also that I don't want to get too attached to the guy in the event he gets banned.

Also, just in general what does everyone think about Annihilape in NatDex? Has anyone else been having more consistent results with him on the ladder?

hi so this is going to sound like ridiculously dumb and stupid and silly advice but a tip for avoiding the problem is to switch into a pokemon that resists those moves

 

[bogglywoods]

hi so this is going to sound like ridiculously dumb and stupid and silly advice but a tip for avoiding the problem is to switch into a pokemon that resists those moves

Well, yeah lol. A lot of times it's just random coverage I didn't expect a specific Pokemon to run (or tera sometimes) and I didn't want to/didn't think to use my tera on him, it's not like I'm leaving him in for flying or ghost types :P

 

[Astroblastyt]

reminder to not post random one-liners. Let your post talk about an aspect of the new metagame and generally have a decent amount of content.

Here's some talking points to get us started:

What are your thoughts on the unbanned Pokemon?
What do you think of the newly added pokemon from gen 9?

OH THANK GOD I HAVE A EXCUSE TO TALK ABOUT THIS

I'm gonna be honest when it comes to scarlet and violet I feel like most people saying the new pokemon are misses have no idea what they are talking about
we got Toedscruel.
that is reason enough to love this gen
I personally really like running a stall team with toedscruel at the forefront just for the hell of it, here's the team:

heres the pokepaste if you wanna shit on the team: https://pokepast.es/dcffc2c8e1f2cba8
edit: just remembered mega sableye is a thing lol, replaced meowscarda with it, also gave ferro rest and toxapex recover

new pokepaste: https://pokepast.es/ec1bea79a694f1a6

 

[jawsome274]

OH THANK GOD I HAVE A EXCUSE TO TALK ABOUT THIS

I'm gonna be honest when it comes to scarlet and violet I feel like most people saying the new pokemon are misses have no idea what they are talking about
we got Toedscruel.
that is reason enough to love this gen
I personally really like running a stall team with toedscruel at the forefront just for the hell of it, here's the team:
View attachment 469787View attachment 469788
heres the pokepaste if you wanna shit on the team: https://pokepast.es/dcffc2c8e1f2cba8

no offense, how is no recovery toxapex, ferrothorn, and meowscerada a stall team

 

[Astroblastyt]

no offense, how is no recovery toxapex, ferrothorn, and meowscerada a stall team

yea i fixed that already, my bad

 

[astralydia]

Lydia's Thoughts part 2

You might be wondering why I voted DNB for everything on this slate. Well - here's my thoughts on it all.

Iron Bundle
I don't feel particularly strongly on this but I felt that defensive counterplay was present and just needed to be discovered. I think Koko + Bundle was probably the biggest thing pushing this over the edge ftr - the freedom given by an insane speed boost just meant that Bundle could force offensive teams to play defensively around it.

Counterplay

Strong
Blissey - 4HKO'd at most from Specs Hydro, capable of answering to pivot at least short term
Slowking-Galar - 3HKOd by Hydro, deals a strong blow with Sludge Bomb, Water Tera is very viable already
Neutral Tera Clodsire - Not 2HKOd from any move, except Water Tera Hydro Pump (Ice Beam is a thin range - you're most likely to get frozen if they do Tera in response)

Rare answers
Neutral Tera Ting-Lu - Not 3HKOd by any move, but neutral Tera Ting-Lu is usually a tech pick
Steel Tera Gastrodon - The hardest answer in the game, but requires a dedicated Tera slot.

Weak
Magearna - Assault Vest Magearna is 3HKOd by Specs Hydro at most. Can tech Water Tera for rain matchups (and I think Water Tera is ideal, actually)
Tornadus-Therian - Avoids an OHKO from any move if Assault Vest, can be Tera'd to be neutral to all hits. Very shaky answer though.
Dragonite - Specially Defensive Normal Tera Dragonite is a potential answer, though it must be wary of critical hits from Hydro Pump.
Ferrothorn - Not 2HKOd by any move, other than Ice Tera Ice Beam from Specs.
Melmetal - not 2HKOd by any move if Assault Vest, other than Water Tera Hydro Pump
Toxapex - Specially Defensive can take a Freeze-Dry from Specs and pivot into a resist, but it takes a very heavy amount and can't really answer to Taunt
Kyurem - Requires a very bulky spread but it can avoid a 2HKO from Specs Ice Beam
Zamazenta-Crowned - Tanks 2 Hydros if specially defensive

Revenge Killers
Strong - / /
Weak - / / Most Choice Scarfers, but Tapu Lele is notable for being able to live any 1 hit / First Impression users (Lokix, Slither Wing, etc)

Cyclizar
Same as always, not really a strong enough Shed Tail setter - subs are pretty low HP and it's even easier to break them in NatDex than it is in OU due to Melmetal and Urshifu-R existing

Chien-Pao
Same as last time, but I also feel like counterplay has been explored a lot more now and the outcome for Chien-Pao rn is pretty clear. I still think the scariest set that Chien-Pao can throw out is Electric Tera Blast though

Blaziken-Mega
I do not really understand this one. Alongside the counterplay we already had (Slowbro, Toxapex, Landorus-Therian, water priority, Mega Latias), we gained SEVERAL new answers, many of which were actually much better than the above. Dondozo is a complete hard stop, Skeledirge is capable of at least soft answering, as is true with Clodsire, we got an even BETTER Urshifu-R, we got Iron Hands, which is capable of eating a +2 hit from Mega Blaziken, defensive Great Tusk can do the same, and some mons previously unseen before got new life with Tera in Dragonite. Tera in general can turn some mons from otherwise bait for Mega Blaziken into very solid answers, and especially with how much rain (and rain counterplay) we've been seeing, I feel like Mega Blaziken simply doesn't cut it. Shame it got owned.

Zamazenta
Speed tier is pretty insane but I feel like a lot of the issues brought up with this mon are more-so the lack of defensive adaptation or Tera Fighting making some blanket checks less blanket check-y. Answers that were already good into this mon (Landorus-Therian, Slowbro, Toxapex, Clefable if you can afford it) are already present in this meta, and new answers in Dragonite, Skeledirge, Annihilape and Gholdengo are now present. Of course, several of these mons are 2HKOd with the right coverage move, but we've coped with breakers like this before where they have to predict several times to actually make reasonable progress - we can do the same for a mon that's much faster than its surroundings, but also much more prediction reliant. Of course, whilst Fighting Tera does indeed make this mon a lot more powerful, there's also a lot to be said for opposing Fighting-resistant Teras screwing up Zamazenta, notably on Pokemon like Magearna, Skeledirge and Ferrothorn are capable of using resists, whilst Ting-Lu is capable of reversing the flow with a neutral Tera in Ground. Additionally, it is still possible to regenpivot with mons like Slowking-Galar, Tangrowth, and on occasion, Tornadus-Therian, even if Tornadus-T is very shaky. It's also notable that Zamazenta still doesn't have the speed monopoly, with solid threats like Dragapult and Regieleki overtaking it. If we freed MZam then there'd be another thing but alas >:(

Zamazenta-Crowned
I had a lot of trouble writing the ban reasoning for this. NatDex OU council can confirm. I don't really think this mon is broken - nor all that hard to deal with, honestly. Offense has a pretty easy time because it can often just run a faster guy like Pult + some helmet pivots (Landorus-Therian, Iron Hands, Slowbro, etc) to get around much of the issue. Balance just blanks it with Unaware / stat removal / Ghost-types, and stall does the same but several fold. Additionally, the decent spread of Sacred Sword does allow some other offensive counterplay (particularly when using Chien-Pao, but Kartana can also work), and Urshifu-R can trade some solid damage against Zamazenta-C. One notable form of counterplay I liked against Zamazenta-Crowned was Mega Slowbro, a mon that really doesn't give a damn about even a +6 Body Press. Whilst Dark Tera variants are capable of getting around this issue, I'd found that these variants were both rare and not really strong enough to put a dent in Megabro. They'd also have to risk Scald burns several times, or happen to be Sub variants, that were all just too easy to pressure. Or, if I were using Body Press, they'd have to risk a crit whilst I got out pretty much hax free due to Shell Armor. The only teams this really hurt were hyper offense, which quite frankly have other ways around Zamazenta-C that just aren't explored yet.

Magearna
Probably the most controversial mon that's on this list. I'm not ready to let go of this mon yet, but I can see it getting out of hand insanely quickly, even in a metagame without Terastallization - just off of the strengths of Stored Power bullshit. Once someone discovers an actually good HO with this mon I'm not going to hesitate to throw this out, but as for now I haven't really seen anything that gets around the entire metagame so far.

And two mons that weren't even on the list (because I didn't think they were broken enough to be voted on, and nobody on council really brought it up)

Chi-Yu

Chi-Yu is an utter menace offensively. I wanted to check to see if we had any real counterplay, but after discovering that Boots variants effectively get around Clodsire for free by running Overheat, my opinion on the mon sharply dropped. I think the mon at the moment is quite overbearing on defensive cores with any set, and the more dedicated breaker sets like Specs and NP are extremely hard to answer, especially after Roaring Moon left the metagame [FREE HIM]. Chi-Yu accounts for the majority of my Dragonite usage right now, which is abnormally high compared to pretty much any other mon in my builder, and

Urshifu-Rapid-Strike

This mon accounts for the other half of my Dragonite usage. This mon isn't broken, it just has a particularly good matchup into my currently spammed defensive cores, which is a bit annoying. Mon's much harder to deal with than Zamazenta imo, the more broken STAB + Swords Dance helps, and it breaks open Cyclizar HOs like they're nothing.

 

[The N@me User]

Are their any notable wallbreakers to clean up the Stall refugees clogging the ladder? One or few is one thing, but after a certain point, I've been facing nothing but Hard-Stall, and it's beginning to become impossible to get past without using entirely different teams, which I have, but don't always feel like using.

Anything for Clodsire-Skeledirge(-Dondozo?) + CorvBliss?

Iron Bundle's ban is still fresh, and I'm still trying to figure out what mons I'd like to add back to some of my teams.

 

[jawsome274]

Hey all, I just wanted to share a Mega Medicham set that I've used a little that helps out some of mmedi's biggest issues



Medicham-Mega @ Medichamite
Ability: Telepathy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Trailblaze
- Close Combat
- Zen Headbutt
- Ice Punch

Mega Medicham is an incredibly strong wallbreaker, capable of casually tearing apart defensive cores. However, while it's ridiculously strong, it's biggest weakness has always been it's poor matchup into offensive Pokémon, due to it's decent, but not great speed tier, poor bulk, and unimpressive resistances. This set tries to remedy that with Trailblaze's +1 speed, and a +1 base 100 means you outspeed key speed control options, like Mega Lopunny, Zamazenta, Chien Pao, Choice Scarf Landorus-Therian and Tapu Lele.

In this (https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-1728810094-7d7aj4nyw7mquowkrhvaqyttbg6jwvipw) replay, while the rest of my team slowed the opposition down, the looming threat of kartana meant that Toxapex needed to be kept healthy lest it sweep their team. MMedi forced out Pex to get off a Trailblaze, and had they not forfeited, the combination of Kartana + Mega Medicham would've completely swept their team - as long as i'm not clicking cc too often, and even if I misread and click cc on Pex, they would quickly be overwhelmed by the combination Kartana + Encore Victini.

Team is here, lmk if there's any weaknesses here that I didn't come across :) https://pokepast.es/7e8fc59fff8f9f17

 

[Jho]

Welcome to Magearna tier. This mon is so disgustingly versatile that its so hard to ever justify not using it. SpDf with Fleur/Volt/Split/Spikes I think is where Mage is at its best right now but Specs still has negative real checks, Set up variants can still steamroll almost anything, and CM Split does really well into most non-Skelidrege stalls if you can cripple Clodd which is very easy because that mon is the most passive thing on the planet. From what ive heard from people and see in the ps and discord chats people seem to be down on BO atm so here is some fun stuff you can do with magearna to get a nice looking Bulky Offense:tm:

Most Magearna should probably be Tera Flying bar maybe specs because specs tera fairy Fleur 2hkos unaware Clodd and that is very funny to me.

+ + el classico. Magearna and Tornadus give u an incredible pivoting defensive core to pair with strong breakers while gastro gives it some structural integrity and provides the spikeman. Prefer gastro to clod because Scald is still broken.
+ + the one where u run photosynthesis boys such as the banded great tusk or slither wing. Toed looks funny so he gets invited.
+ + the one with the strong volt switches and also the Iron Boys. You want a ground resist with this obviously, Torn, Tornadus-T, Tornadus-Therian Forme all work fine.
+ + the one where magearna has more defense and special defense. Not BO but magearna is still broken.
+ the one where you get to use 2 brokens who can mostly abuse each others very limited checks.

Overall really liking the tier right now, Magearna might be too much but I dont think its quite quickban worthy and think the council have gone a really good job getting rid of the brokens. Meta seems fairly stable right now and apart from Tera as a mechanic I don't think there's anything too worrying to look at.

Godspeed Tera ban

 

[SinnohEevee]

Now that Iron Bundle is National Dex Ubers, which Pokémon would fit as a replacement?

 

[jawsome274]

Now that Iron Bundle is National Dex Ubers, which Pokémon would fit as a replacement?

Hiya! Iron Bundle is a really interesting Pokémon, it has a lot of traits that can be emulated on their own, but not so easily all together. As a result, it really depends on what you want from Iron Bundle.

I want a fast and strong Ice type that can tear through bulky and offensive teams alike



Chien-Pao @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Darkinium Z
Ability: Sword of Ruin
Tera Type: Fire / Dark / Ice
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Throat Chop / Crunch / Sucker Punch
- Sacred Sword / Tera Blast
- Icicle Crash / Ice Spinner / Ice Shard

Chien Pao is a mon that's ridiculously difficult to switch into. Even resists aren't going unscathed, especially when terastallization and the +2 boost from Swords Dance is taken into account. Even if they can take your hits, they're often forced into a position where recovery and/or pivoting is imminent. For example, +2 252 Atk Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 52- Def Tapu Fini: 139-164 (40.5 - 47.8%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (the evs here emulate the 252/68+ set.)

I want a strong, special Ice type with Freeze Dry, that's difficult to switch in to, and preferably has some defensive utility.



Kyurem @ Never-Melt Ice / Icium Z
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest / Timid Nature
- Freeze-Dry
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam / Hidden Power Fire
- Roost

While Kyurem is absolutely having trouble keeping up with the powercrept metagame, it's also probably the closest you'll get to a true recreation of Iron Bundle. No water stab, and a middling speed tier kinda blow, but aside from that, you still have a high special attack, a STAB Freeze Dry, and limited switchins. You also boast a solid defensive profile on both sides, which is fantastic.

I would like a strong, offensive Water type that can use it's Water typing defensively, and can shut down walls with Taunt, or pivot out.



Urshifu-Rapid-Strike @ Punching Glove
Ability: Unseen Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Surging Strikes
- Close Combat
- U-turn / Taunt
- Thunder Punch

With it's (physically) great 100/100/60 defenses, resistance to Stealth Rock, and resistance to many STAB combinations in the tier, like Chi-Yu or Chien-Pao's STABs, Urshifu uses both it's typings in both offensive and defensive ways. With Taunt, you make the walls that wanted to recover in your face look like idiots, or with U-Turn, you can punish switches to your few answers.

I would like a fast, strong offensive pivot with an unresisted STAB combo with high base power moves.



Lopunny-Mega @ Lopunnite
Ability: Scrappy
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Close Combat
- Frustration
- U-turn

Mega Lopunny is, in my opinion, like if Iron Bundle was physical, weaker to chip, couldn't hold an item, but was even stronger. One cannot underestimate MLop's insane anti-offense tools with it's high attack in both stats and attacks. It effectively 2hkos every offensive Pokémon that isn't bulky as well. What's more, Mega Lopunny is actually rather bulky for an offensive Pokémon, and while it lacks good resistances, it can stomach weaker hits should it need to. Example: +2 0 Atk Technician Scizor-Mega Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lopunny-Mega: 195-229 (71.9 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock. With all this, it sees itself known as one of the best offensive pivots in the tier, just like Iron Bundle was.

There's a few more things Bundle had going for it, unfortunately water stab + freeze dry is only rly a thing from unmons like Lapras and Arctovish, and while electric terrain abuse is a trait shared by viable picks, (namely, any Quark Drive Pokémon + Eleki,) none are that similar to bundle aside from mayyyybe Eleki is you squint hard enough.

 

[R8]

I am curious about people's opinions on the meta right now, so here are some questions for y'all:

1) Hyper Offense
2) Bulky Offense
3) Balance
4) Stall

1. Rank the above in terms of how much you prefer the above playstyles and how effective/good they are in your opinion (1 being the best and 4 being the worst)
2. What Pokemon do you think are staples for each playstyle, or are very good for each specific playstyle?
3. What are some fun pokemon you like for each playstyle, or for some playstyles
4. Most overrated Pokemon in your opinion?
5. Most underrated Pokemon in your opinion?
6. Favorite new Generation 9 pokemon to use?
7. Favorite non-gen9 Pokemon to use?
8. Have you tried out any of the new items? If so, are there any you like or any that are making a solid impact in Natdex OU?
9. On a scale of 1-10, how much are you enjoying Natdex OU, with 1 being the least and 10 being the most?
10. On a scale of 1-10, how competitive do you find Natdex OU, with 1 being the least competitive and 10 being the most competitive?

this post was shamelessly stolen from the OU thread

 

[NeonJolteonWasUsed]

I am curious about people's opinions on the meta right now, so here are some questions for y'all:

1) Hyper Offense
2) Bulky Offense
3) Balance
4) Stall

1. Rank the above in terms of how much you prefer the above playstyles and how effective/good they are in your opinion (1 being the best and 4 being the worst)
2. What Pokemon do you think are staples for each playstyle, or are very good for each specific playstyle?
3. What are some fun pokemon you like for each playstyle, or for some playstyles
4. Most overrated Pokemon in your opinion?
5. Most underrated Pokemon in your opinion?
6. Favorite new Generation 9 pokemon to use?
7. Favorite non-gen9 Pokemon to use?
8. Have you tried out any of the new items? If so, are there any you like or any that are making a solid impact in Natdex OU?
9. On a scale of 1-10, how much are you enjoying Natdex OU, with 1 being the least and 10 being the most?
10. On a scale of 1-10, how competitive do you find Natdex OU, with 1 being the least competitive and 10 being the most competitive?

this post was shamelessly stolen from the OU thread

I'm gonna go ahead and try my best to answer ALL of these, so bare with me.

1. Bulky Offense is without question the strongest playstyle right now, Balance is just below, but still great, Stall is good for certain matchups, but falters to quite a few as well, and Hyper Offense is about as inconsistent as its always been, even with the new additions.

2. Mega Scizor is one of the best Glues in the game for Bulky Offense Right now, as said by many others, it revenges so many of the new faces, as well as reasonably handling some of the more dangerous threats right now.

3. + Tapu Koko + Future Paradox Pokemon have been extremely fun to mess around with! I usually only pair it with one or two max, but my favorite inparticular so far has been Tapu Koko + Iron Hands because of how insanely those two would bounce off each other even without Quark Drive, with said Quark Drive only bolstering their amazing teamwork.

4. Gholdengo without question, the overall higher power ceiling, as well as much larger selection of Defoggers that pose an immediate threat to it, all being compressed by its innate weakness to pursuit, while it still is usable, these traits make it very hard for me to reasonably justify it on a team without extensive support.

5. I'm torn between Urshifu Rapid Strike, and Iron Hands, Urshifu Rapid Strike has become an extremely potent wallbreaker thanks to Swords Dance, making it require much more aggressive play to prevent from picking up a KO every time it comes in, while Iron Hands has overall proven to be a great Pokemon on a consistent basis, with Swords Dance sets easily being their best sets imo, however, it is an extremely versatile Paradox Pokemon, being able to run sets running from Offensive Assault Vest, and even Choice Band for raw power.

6. Iron Valiant, one of the coolest Pokemon designs ever, and is extremely fun to use competitively too! They quickly became one of my all time favorites, and I love building around them right now.

7. Weavile, even with Chien-Pao walking around, I do believe Weavile is still the better pick for Choice Band sets, due to it trading frankly overkill power for great Utility in both Pursuit, and Knock off, Pursuit inparticular being invaluable for helping wear down offensive threats overtime, and deal with the Eon Duo, Gholdengo, and certain variations of Dragapult, letting it still function as an infinitely better user of Choice Band than Chien-Pao right now.

8.

I haven't really given much thought to many of them, but I have definitely tested out the Punching Glove, which is an absolute godsend to Iron Hands and Urshifu, and may be part of the reason I love using those two so much.

9. I'm hovering around an 8, there's still some Pokemon that need to be looked at, but I'm overall having a blast with the Meta right now!

10. I'd say it's a solid 7, as fun as this Metagame is, and while it is still fairly balanced in its current state, I do believe it's not entirely perfect, and even has a bit of Matchup-Fish to it that I'd really hope to see resolved at some point.

If you read all this, ty, I had a fun time reflecting back on the meta so far and sharing my thoughts! I only dabbled in National Dex last generation, but this seems like the Generation where I may fully transition over to this tier, as I'm not super pleased with SVOU at the current moment (mad respect to those who still play it tho.)

 

[Jho]

1)Bulky Offense - bulky offense is my bread and butter and its really underrated from what I've seen people talking about. It has a fuck ton of new tools, and old unbanned ones that lets you abuse the really good pivots and incredibly strong breakers we have in the tier right now.


Theres a lot of pretty good new tools to play around with and with the abundance of hazards backing up very strong breakers you can generally work your way around anything with a well played BO. Some of my favourite cores at the minute are:

Protosynth BOs

+ / @
some teams I used in kick off based on this.
https://pokepast.es/f94a316a092fcd88
https://pokepast.es/16158d55629c81f2
Banded Slither Wing and Great Tusk are so strong in Sun and Zard Y lures in ample things for them to take advantage of. Paired with Pokemon like Magearna and Tapu Koko and all of these breakers will enjoy a lot of free entries on the abundance of Steels in the tier. As with any form of Sun, multiple instances of removal is very nice so Pokemon like Tapu Koko, Landorus-T, and even Cyclizard and Toedscruel can fit into that role nicely.

Torn is back baby

+ + + whatever breakers you want
https://pokepast.es/b91789aed6ffaff6
https://pokepast.es/de7ea5fb465f3b63 no koko but the idea is the same
These sorts of teams can just keep pivoting around, setting up hazards, forcing chip, and eventually taking advantage of said chip with breakers like Kingambit, Annihilape, Chi Yu, Chien Pao, Tapu Lele, Urshifu etc etc. Probably wants a Lando or a Gastrodon or Great Tusk because you can get beat up by opposing Koko/Eleki comps.

2) Hyper Offense


Rain at the moment isnt really built like Hyper Offense but its not really Bulky Offense either so ill just put it here. HO is really really good at the minute thanks to the absolute insane set up opportunities everything is afforded thanks to Tera. Gholdengo is an excellent HO addition too due to its ability to stop the removal of both Hazards and Screens. Pokemon like Dragapult, Dragonite, Magearna, Zard X, and to a lesser extent Iron Moth, Mega Scizor, Mega Garchomp, and all the rest of the HO suspects all take really good advantage of these additions.

Rain always ends up being good when the meta is in disarray like it is now. However, since the last 2 ban waves and the meta settling down a bit, rain has very noticeably dropped off a little. Could be the Bundle ban but most Rains had already dropped bundle by that point anyway.

3) Stall

https://pokepast.es/fbb6b381b734c1b9
Stall got some interesting new tools in Clodders and the Unaware gamers. It did lose a lot coming into the new generation though, namely Toxapex's ability to be good, all round recovery nerf, Mega Sableye being garbage, Magearna coming back, and Tera making it that much harder to properly check all the threats running rampant. Tera itself is pretty good for stall though, types like Water & Fairy make some of stall staples so much harder to break through. Overall I think stall was left on a net negative and just too many versatile threats to handle for stall to consistently good. On ladder I think stall is usually going to be your best bet though just because people will sometimes auto forfeit when seeing a Pex and give you free points or get bored and make mistakes.

Stall I linked is one I had some fun with and it did decently well, tough rain matchup if you dont outplay but I believe in you.

4) Balance

Ill be honest, I don't think Balance is great at all right now. It got a few new mons to mess around with, Garganacl being the best of the bunch by a bit but also some new bulky win conditions like Annihilape. Its just stretched way too thin; cant defensively check everything well enough and cant really muster up the offensive pressure to break the really strong cores. Its also really hurt by everythings new found access to every single entry hazard so usual balance pivots are worn down that much quicker. That being said it isnt that much below the rest of the pack and the allures of Pokemon like Garganacl, Clodsire, Iron Hands etc make it pretty fun and interesting to build.

2/3 - I think I went over that in the Playstyles bit enough woops.

4 -
God I hate this awful, awful mon. Everything about it bar its ability is subpar but the amount of places I have seen it forced into where it doesnt really make sense is really up there. If your not using Gholdengo as a Good as Gold suicide blocker that can occasionally plot up and smack something with a relatively strong SpA and signature move I really think you could use the slot better. In my opinion Gholdengo only fits on HO to deny fogging screens away. It also looks dumb which really doesnt help its case.

5/6 -
Slither Wing is incredibly strong if you can get Protosynthesis to proc. Bug/Fighting STAB is really good into the metagame and it can fire off U-turns and First Impressions at >800 Atk regularly. By no means a sleeper OP but definitley something really fun and pretty strong that I dont think too many people have tried out yet due to the pretty hefty restriction on past paradox mons needing sun. Luckily in Natdex we have an actual viable sun setter in Zard Y.

7 -
I am a fan of having tempo given to me for free on a silver platter and I have missed it dearly. I haven't even tried Nasty Plot sets yet due to how comfortable having a utility Tornadus makes teams feel. Glad to have it back, will surely be sad to see it go again later down the line when it inevitably has to go back to the farm.

8 - Booster Energy & Punching Gloves
Not too much to say about these Items, they're pretty good and definitely will see use when they're needed. However, I really dislike Booster Energy simply due to the fact that it puts a opportunity cost on using your Pokémon. If I'm in a situation where I need to take advantage of a Ferrothorn with an Iron Valiant for example, but feel I cant because I might need the Speed Boost later that just feels awful. For that reason I really think it is better to either use the paradox Pokemon with their respective Field Effect setters, or ignore their ability and hope the opponent brings one.

9 - 8 out of 10
Natdex is really fun at the minute and the only thing really holding it back for me at the minute is Tera. I think the mechanic is inherently uncompetitive and playing with and against it feels like it takes a little control out of my hands. The tiering so far in this generation has been excellent and the current state of the metagame overall is really, really good. Would definitely recommend.

10 - 7/10
Yeah same as above, it really is just Tera holding it back from a competitive standpoint. In my opinion you cant completely say a metagame is competitive with so much unpredictability and forced 50/50s so often. If we take something like Magearna for example, every turn before Tera is revealed you have to play assuming it can be both Steel/Fairy AND Pure Flying type (not taking into account other Tera types it might consider even). That is a lot especially when you multiply that by the fact that every single Pokemon also puts you in that position, and some take it even further with having multiple viable Tera types that you have to consider. For a mechanic which is not limited to something the Pokemon already has (Z-moves being limited to the Pokemons movepool so you knew the options available), something which is no drawback (again with Z moves, taking up an Item Slot and being one and done usage wise), and is useable by every single member of a team, to be so influential oppressively I think is a little too much. /rant

Appreciate R8 's post for giving me an opportunity to talk/ramble about everything I've been feeling about the metagame over the last 2/3 weeks. Overall really enjoying it and looking forward to seeing what other people think and post

 

[Tanaka's Show]

Not gonna answer all of the questions (maybe later) due to time constraints, but I do want to answer some that interest me.

2. Gholdengo is definitely a staple on Offensive playstyles. Being a great abuser of all of screens/webs/and hazards while blocking majority of the counterplay against them is incredibly effective and gives very little reason NOT to run this mon. However as more players adapt to it's presence and start limiting it (running defoggers that can threaten it, pursuit trapping) I can see it possibly falling off. Mega Lopunny is also easily one of the best offensive mons with Fake Out + Quick attack with it's naturally high speed lets it revenge kill a lot of threats with ease.

3. + Espathra is incredibly effective with E-Seed thanks to the defense boost giving it much more staying power while giving its Stored Power an extra boost, and appreciates Koko weakening or outright eliminating dark types.

5. Although Chien-Pao has more speed and a great ability, two things that Chien-Pao simply can't touch is having access to Knock Off and Pursuit, which can be big in the long game by knocking boots off a wall, or trapping Gholdengo for your defogger to defog freely. It definitely doesn't hurt that weavile's triple axel is still plenty strong as a move.

8. Definitely the Gloves. This item is big on pokemon like Melm, Urshifu, and Iron Hands as it's a way to avoid contact effects AND boosting their most important moves. A great item for sure even if it's not the most splashable one.

 

[658Greninja]

Hearing people complain about Gholdengo in a tier with actually good defoggers besides Corv surprises me.

 

[Nish the Great]

The two bans just now just so happened to have sniped my two teams :( I guess I gotta learn to play Pokémon without a free kill button

 

[The N@me User]

I am curious about people's opinions on the meta right now, so here are some questions for y'all:

1) Hyper Offense
2) Bulky Offense
3) Balance
4) Stall

1. Rank the above in terms of how much you prefer the above playstyles and how effective/good they are in your opinion (1 being the best and 4 being the worst)
2. What Pokemon do you think are staples for each playstyle, or are very good for each specific playstyle?
3. What are some fun pokemon you like for each playstyle, or for some playstyles
4. Most overrated Pokemon in your opinion?
5. Most underrated Pokemon in your opinion?
6. Favorite new Generation 9 pokemon to use?
7. Favorite non-gen9 Pokemon to use?
8. Have you tried out any of the new items? If so, are there any you like or any that are making a solid impact in Natdex OU?
9. On a scale of 1-10, how much are you enjoying Natdex OU, with 1 being the least and 10 being the most?
10. On a scale of 1-10, how competitive do you find Natdex OU, with 1 being the least competitive and 10 being the most competitive?

this post was shamelessly stolen from the OU thread

1. 1) Bulky Offense

I've noticed my teams tend to fall apart if there's not at least one offensive Poké that can take a hit without screens/a substitute. I tried pure HO after wasn't doing so well for me in the current Meta due to Spinblocker McGee, but I faced the problem of too many vital Pokémon getting one/two-shot.

It may not be true Bulky Offensive, but and feel like comfort picks that usually facilitate the rest of the team. being really good right now definitely helps.

2) Hyper Offense

Using or as a spinner, HO is still workable to me, but the most success I had with it wasn't Shed Tail shenanigans necessarily, or even dual screens nonsense for the most part, but hazard stacking.

3) Balance

I've shifted more and more offensively as the Meta went on, as more than one defensive Pokémon usually drags the team down in this heavy offensive Meta unless the Mon can deal damage in a consistent way, but I honestly feel Balance is still enjoyable depending on what you're using on it. is great at walling stuff, particularly after a Curse or two, wherein its Earthquakes can deal solid damage and it can still Toxic Stall stuff. I used to be able to run 2-3 defensive mons and 3-4 offensive mons pretty consistently, but the Meta makes it hard for some of them not to feel like a deadweight. In my experience, even Defensive mons need a way to deal damage. and are good examples.

4) Stall

Respectfully, no thanks.

How good they are:

1) HO/BO (really depends on how well the team is facilitated by the main picks, be it hazard setters/dual screeners or the bulky mons who can switch in and out if needed)

2) Stall (still has most of its tools here, but recovery was nerfed. This doesn't matter to Stall teams as much though, as there's at least 5 Pokémon with 8 PP recovery. The lower PP has just caused most Stall mons to be more proactive rather than just clicking Softboiled until Life Orb KO's you.

3) Balance (as said before, a balanced team in the new Gen needs to be able to threaten Mons, and stuff like can barely do that if you're specifically weak to Body Press. Most of the good Balance teams this Gen also partially blend in with BO.

2.

Hyper Offense:

Staples

, Tera Ice

Good on



Bulky Offense:

Staples



Good on



Balance:

Staples



Good on



Stall:

Staples



Good on

Mold Breaker , , ,

I'm sure I'm missing a few, but those are the ones that came to mind.

3. Sorta answered in the first response

4.

A lot of good Pokémon dropped go UU, so I'm just going to pull in general and not just from OU: Seen it way too much for how mediocre it is.

More particularly: 's typing is so bad defensively that what it's about to do is entirely telegraphed. Agility ---> Fiery Dance ---> Pray it boosts ---> Tera Grass if threatened. Always Booster Energy. This thing wishes it had Quiver Dance, as only the Scarf sets don't have to rely on Agility-Fiery Dance as a budget Quiver Dance, but the sets are, quite frankly, outclassed by . Not as good as imo.

5.

A lot of stuff is being underrated, as a lot of stuff has dropped to UU, but here's a few that either will rise back up to OU when usage straightens back out, or be good regardless.

are all underrated in different ways imo. I'll elaborate further down but here's a summary for now.

is a great check to many of the offensive Pokémon running around such as and , among others. Choice Band is its best set right now IMO. Tera Water Liquidation 2HKOs , and deletes most of the game from existence. Ice Spinner/Play Rough are handy for predicts, deleting and , while Play Rough nails Water resists/immunities not weak to Ice Spinner.

is the best Defogger I've used in Natdex. Nobody really expects the defensive/non-Choiced set first, and Dark Pulse deletes , should they correctly switch. Golden Man blocking hazard removal? Dark Pulse the btch Bugs and Fairies threatening you while laying down Sticky Webs? Tera Steel, Defog anyway

It can use any other move besides Dark Pulse as an attacking move, but I recommend either Fire Blast/Flamethrower or Draco Meteor. Roost and Defog are necessary. Leftovers preferred. Most consistent hazard removal besides the Paradox Donphans.

with the Loaded Dice can straight up delete teams with Icicle Spear once one (especially two) DDs are pulled off. The secret here is Tera Fire Tera Blast. Turns Mach Punch weakness into a neutrality, Ice Shard neutrality into a resistance, and notably, makes Fire Neutrality into a resistance (great for the free +1 from Thermal Exchange), and two-shots every Steel type not named Heatran, most of which you can also score a second DD off of if there's no priority to end your sweep.

Only thing to watch out for is Aqua Jets if you Tera'd.

6.

has been slapped on too many of my teams to count. Good ol' reliable Fire Fish just nukes things with either Choice Specs or just Tera Fire Fire Blast/Overheat. Tera Dark actually isn't bad either, as most of the Meta is neutral to Dark, and those 20% flinch chances can come in handy a lot. Tera Dark turns a lot of 3HKOs into 2HKOs. Tera Fairy turns a Mach Punch weakness into a resistance, and deals with Dark/Fighting types as well, and obviously Tera Fire just nukes everything.

That said, the comfort comes from the fact that you don't actually need to Tera to clean stuff up.

7.

is amazing with Punching Gloves and Swords Dance.

:Punching Gloves:'s weak 1.1 boost is great for a multi-hit move like Surging Strikes, turning it from a 75 BP move that crits (effective 105 BP) into an 82.5 BP move that crits (effectively 123.75 BP). The Elemental Punches are slightly boosted as well, and thanks to the Punching Gloves' secondary effect, is protected from 's Static, 's Rough Skin, 's Iron Barbs, and all damage.

Swords Dance makes this thing, especially if Tera Water'd, unable to be stopped by damn-near anything but a Water resist/immunity, and a threat fast enough to OHKO it, while taking a potential +2 Aqua Jet.

+2 252 Atk Tera Water Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Punching Glove boosted Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight on a critical hit: 363-432 (90.7 - 108%) -- approx. 43.8% chance to OHKO

It's actually higher than this, but the Calculator doesn't let you at add the .5

+2 252 Atk Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Punching Glove boosted Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 192-226 (63.1 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Also fun to note, is that with a good hazard remover or Poison type, this thing just deletes while laying two Toxic Spikes in return.

Special shoutout to and for being Goats.

with Sand Tomb and Close Combat is so fun. Trap things that try to switch in, and just remove them from the opposing team. You can even get a Swords Dance boost in the process. Priority is extremely useful in this Meta, and as I mentioned, a Mon that can take a hit is super rewarding in this heavily offensive Meta. combines those two attributes.

is a great supplier of priority, but notably, it also Speed Ties with , and can OHKO thanks to Scrappy. As always, is one of the most comfortable Pokémon to use in the tier.

8.

Punching Glove and Loaded Dice are the only ones I've used that are great, as described above. Loaded Dice on lets it hit super hard, also notable on (in UU). Not a giant advocate for the latter, but Dice is fun even without Terastallizing.

Mirror Herb will probably be a common Item used on Swagger-learning Unburden users, but I don't see any other Item becoming too notable outside of Doubles.

9.

Around an 8. The more options makes the Meta feel less suffocating than SV OU, and you have more options to deal with some of the opposing bullshit that SV whipped up. That said, Terastalling needs to be Suspected here too, and despite mentioning it a lot for most of this post, I don't think it should stay. Makes Revenge-KOing too difficult.

10.

6-7. We need to kick out, Suspect Terastallization, and while there are more options, do something about invalidating most Hazard removal.

Edit:

Okay, I'm legitimately upset by the Chi-Yu ban. Magearna is apparently Fair and Balanced and Gholdengo avoids any punishment because It's a different tier, it's easier to beat here!

Chi-Yu was very far down the list of shit that needed to go, and neither Terastallization nor Gholdengo are even being looked at.

 

[Bayb]

I feel like the metagame right now is a mess and that some features that were introduced in previous generations shouldn't be there or should at least be restricted. Since this is Nat Dex, it makes sense that Mega Evolutions are here, however, I feel like Z Moves don't belong in the game anymore. With Megas, Z Moves and Terrastalization, that's three mechanics that you can use at the same time. It is too much.

I would also say that the point of Nat Dex is to bring back the mons that were cut. It is not meant to change what's been established competitively for the new games such as moves being cut like Scald and such.

 

[R8]

I feel like the metagame right now is a mess and that some features that were introduced in previous generations shouldn't be there or should at least be restricted. Since this is Nat Dex, it makes sense that Mega Evolutions are here, however, I feel like Z Moves don't belong in the game anymore. With Megas, Z Moves and Terrastalization, that's three mechanics that you can use at the same time. It is too much.

I would also say that the point of Nat Dex is to bring back the mons that were cut. It is not meant to change what's been established competitively for the new games such as moves being cut like Scald and such.

What should and shouldnt be included in natdex is something that is currently being discussed in this thread:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-identity-of-national-dex-again.3711414/

 

[Bayb]

What should and shouldnt be included in natdex is something that is currently being discussed in this thread:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-identity-of-national-dex-again.3711414/

Thanks I didn't know. Will check it out.

 

[LBN]

Alright, despite my previous hesitations I want to delve into this tier more, and let me start with giving some opinions on Pokemon I've tried out.

Fantastic breaker. getting rocks off remains fairly straight forward akin to last generation, and it's breaking abilities feels even better. Dragons like Mega Latias, Dragonite and Garchomp can be handled with changing up your coverage and abandoning another click. Weather ball/Solar Beam/Scorching Sands/Roost is hard to pass up on, but dropping one of these if your matchup is good with Dragon pulse, or honestly even dragon breath is an optimization you can do. Yes, I understand I'm suggesting Dragon Breath but the ability to spread paralysis to these is valuable, especially Mega Latias, as it's speed is half of what makes it so good at snowballing. That said, it kills so much with good switch in opportunities. Atleast to me, it's an easy A- rank at minimum.

Now speaking of ranks, this pokemon is really something else. Let me preface this though; Do not quickban Zamazenta. It absolutely does not warrant drastic action, and while I believe it's very very silly, there are still checks such as Clefable, Toxapex, Mega Latias, Zapdos, Skeledirge, and more. Scarfers like Tapu Lele also do well, and yes it has coverage for most of these, but that makes it usually reliant on predicting right to make progress, which is a downside. Other pokemon also exist, Mega Slowbro, Mega Sabeye, Lando-T, Gliscor, and offensive checks like Koko, Dragapult and Regieleki.

I feel like I have to warn not to quickban it because bouncing off what Lydia said, I think much of the council has been very trigger happy with many of the bans, and there are multiple people who don't seem to be agreeing with a batch of the decisions, Roaring moon in particular. I don't think a single thing warrants a quickban right now besides maybe Dragapult, but beyond that anything else should and honestly must be a suspect test at this stage.

Now for the upsides, oh boy this Pokemon is still fantastic. It's offensive pressure is incredible, neutral targets like Tangrowth, Hippowdon and others do not fancy CB CC, and many others it does have coverage for. Tera can be used to break past checks, but personally speaking I find Tera Fighting to be the most consistent to it's strengths, and plays into it's better matchups. I think Z moves are heavily underexplored though, and I think those would be what push it over the edge, such as Darkinium-Z and Electrium-Z. That said, that time has yet to pass, so for now it's best to simply suspect it first in my eyes.

Do not forget about the goat. Multiple new interesting items dropped to add to what Reuniclus can accomplish, Covert cloak can prevent drop fishing or lucking onto Reuniclus entirely, alongside the previous Z moves and colbur/helmet. Tera is also a huge benefit for Reuniclus, as now it can change it's problems on a dime to the situation, similar to Hatterene in SVOU right now. Stored power, as well as CM Focus Blast or even CM Shadow ball, all are dangerous and solid in the meta. Reuniclus is very underexplored and I expect to see this pokemon rapidly shoot up in usage in a burst. Don't sleep, the forgetton Reuniclus is the best Reuniclus.

This Pokemon will most certainly be broken at some point, but right now isn't that time. Spikes sets are very healthy, and very very good. Tera normal pivot magearna is the tier's best Dragapult check, as blanking the Ghost-Z is so so useful, but having to do this in the first place kinda says a lot about Dragapult huh.. Specs Magearna is also clean, not used very much but it's solid. Whenever HO magearna takes off I expect to see a suspect or ban of some form by the way, but as of right this moment it's not on the chopping block, I simply await the time it will, because it's not a matter of if it's a matter of when.

I think this Pokemon should have been OU proper by the gen's end last time, this time around we know he's the truth. Fantastic typing, solid Regieleki check, Torn-T is ever so slightly annoying but sludge bomb does good damage and can bother it over time, especially with team support. Magearna isn't that great for it, and the higher distrubution of spikes hinders it, but I still think it's amazing on select teams and threatens a large swath of the tier. To add onto this, it's typing is amazing into a good chunk of the common Tera types, like Steel, Ground, and Fairy.

Loaded Dice. This item is by far my favorite to run, and these 2 run it very well. Garchomp gaining consistency for its Scale Shots is amazing, and it's offensive capabilities are bolstered by this. Mamoswine on the other hand is a fairly solid anti-meta pick. Regieleki's increased danger and Ice shard bait like Dragapult and Dragonite are nicely threatened by it, while also not being Magearna food. Ice ground remains fastastic coverage and it's very good at keeping Stealth rocks up, highly recommend trying him out, definitely has a good niche right now.

pretend Goodra is Baxcalibur

These guys are so dangerous it's crazy. Dragapult is busted just like before, DD Z-Ghost is such a donkey set but still manages to be good, alongside it's myriad of other sets like Specs, CB Tera ghost, and more. Dragonite is probably the posterchild on how varying Tera can be and there is alot to pick from, all varying in viability, but all are dangerous. Baxcalibur (Not goodra), surprised me. I must admit, I thought he looked dumb as hell and those stats looked middling. That being said, Dragon/Ice/Ground coverage does not take prisoners, and it also can lean into Tera Fire for offensive coverage sacrificing it's heatran killing duty for setting up all over Mega Scizor, which to be honest is so stupid but it works.

Now for tera itself... Let me say this right now. I do not want to see a suspect for Tera until at least February. Between Zamazenta, Dragapult and potentially magearna all being targets for Tiering action first, I don't see any reason to take action against tera just yet.. That being said, whether I think it's broken or not I don't know. I think the reaction to it is heavily overblown, but I also can see this being frustrating in tournament play. Of course, the tier should come first before fun, and as much fun as this mechanic is, I think it might be for the best to see some kind of action. I think the best way to do it is try some form of restriction first, since unlike Dynamax it's not an unsalvageable fucking mistake loosely disguised as game design.

 

[buayagator]

I know pursuit shouldn't be in gen 9 and terastalization meta, but we can run both in natdex

I tried to play tera dark pursuit when enemy switch, pursuit was executed first before tera. It should be tera first before pursuit because the additional power from tera dark is really useful to boost pursuit. Can I request the showdown mod to fix this?

Look at the turn 20 : https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-1737619299-wryr8o63hbyu2hyqebvtm6hzziicsjvpw