Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

[bogglywoods]

Also I don't really see much argument for a retest later down the line, because unlike OU we already have all Pokémon and moves.

Actually we don't have the Hisui Pokemon until Home drops in a few months, but I'm not too sure if that would warrant a retest.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Actually we don't have the Hisui Pokemon until Home drops in a few months, but I'm not too sure if that would warrant a retest.

Hisuian mons won't be anywhere near enough to warrant a retest. So Tera is here to stay for a good while

 

[The N@me User]

Hisuian mons won't be anywhere near enough to warrant a retest. So Tera is here to stay for a good while

The vote was extremely close as it was, due to the need for a supermajority rather than just a majority, so I think it warrants a retest regardless. The extra Pokémon are just a convenient excuse for the new time frame.

 

[Zazabi]

Hisuian mons won't be anywhere near enough to warrant a retest. So Tera is here to stay for a good while

yeah but it still could happen, though i dont think we'll be seeing a retest until the dlc drops

 

[bogglywoods]

Also I see a lot of people requesting for bans of over a dozen mons (rightfully so), but is this sustainable? Every other discussion mentions x is broken, y is broken and the list never ends.

IMO the path the meta would take was split between banning tera or banning the (many) things that can abuse it until hopefully reaching something resembling a balanced metagame. I don't personally think it's sustainable but we'll just have to see how it plays out.

 

[buayagator]

I feel mirroring OU and implementing their own limitations without a proper suspect is just absurd and unfair to those who voted. The suspect was held with only full ban as possible.
After the ban failed to pass its quite frankly dishonest and shady to try and find ways to limit Tera when the initial vote was all or nothing. A more nuanced suspect could have yielded better results. Also I don't really see much argument for a retest later down the line, because unlike OU we already have all Pokémon and moves.

Speaking of TR, Banded Melmetal with Tera steel seems nigh uncounterable, the flinch is really what pushes it over the edge.

You have a point, and the good (or bad) news is OU also unban Tera, so we can only enjoy the metagame as it is

If there is a mon that can abuse tera as broken as possible is certainly melmetal, that nut needs to get banned imo

 

[poop3]

If there is a mon that can abuse tera as broken as possible is certainly melmetal, that nut needs to get banned imo

TR teams can accomplish the same thing with other slow wallbreakers like Crawdaunt and Alolawak. And as long as Revival Blessing exists, you only need 2 wallbreakers since you can now res them back.

 

[R8]

so so so, now that the tera suspect vote concluded i'd like to hear people opinions about the current metagame and how it might evolve, so here are some questions:

-What are your thoughts on the results of the suspect?

-What do you expect to be good? (Pokemon or strategies/archetypes in general)

-What do you think might need to be banned from the tier?

-What do you think might be either underrated or overrated/overhyped?

-These pokemon recently got booted from NDUU:


What place does these Pokemon have in OU, in your opinion? Did they deserve to drop in UU?

-More generally : what do you think of the tier as of now? Towards what do you expect it to evolve?

 

[poop3]

-What do you expect to be good? (Pokemon or strategies/archetypes in general)

Balance is going extinct. Nearly all of the common balance cores can't handle Rain or Trick Room. Those strategies require prep at team builder but use opposite forms of speed control. That's too much for balance to accomodate without going full stall.

Sure there's Ferrothorn, but since it's literally the only answer, it's very predictable. And Ferrothorn is pretty passive aginst these very offensive teams.

Rain is a bit better than TR though. It can run checks to TR's wallbeakers while not losing ground against HO.

For example, TR's strongest opening is Focus Sash Hatterene, who can only be beaten by the combination of Mold Breaker + Taunt. Most mons with this combo are weak to Fairy and usually OHKO'd by uninvested Hatterene, but Basculin (later Basculegion) isn't one of them. Even an anti-lead Basculin still has further utility with Rain Dance or just abusing boosted Wave Crashes, and using Basculin isn't as telegraphed as using a Sawk or a Haxorus since it can always Flip Turn out.

If Basculegion will inherit Taunt, I can see all three of its abilities having viable uses on rain. Once Hatterene is taunted none of TR's Pokemon can really handle Basculegion except Cresselia, who outspeeds it. But Cresselia is OHKO'd by Z-Phantom Force. Crawdaunt resists both STABs but on a TR team, it doesn't run DD and can be Flip Turned out of.

-What do you think might need to be banned from the tier?

Magearna should be quick banned at this point. She's very strong even without tera and has a lot of flexibility with tera typing.

-More generally : what do you think of the tier as of now? Towards what do you expect it to evolve?

Once the strongest tera abusers are banned it'll be a distinct tier from Gen 8 natdex, I'll say that much. And Gen 8 natdex was infinitely more fun than OU.

 

[Unowndragon]

waiting for natdex vr
and vicitini，mega-latias.etc ru？i always think vicitini/Rillaboom still good on ou

 

[adem]

so so so, now that the tera suspect vote concluded i'd like to hear people opinions about the current metagame and how it might evolve, so here are some questions:

-What are your thoughts on the results of the suspect?

said some before but very disappointing, i think in general the anti ban side’s arguments that i have seen were extremely poor, and the tier will be going down a much worse path with it staying. alas i did my part and voted but it wasnt enough, so have to cope w the results i supposw

-What do you expect to be good? (Pokemon or strategies/archetypes in general)

ho looks very funny this time around with all the fun mickey mousw abusers, rain is pretty busted rn and if tera doesnt go smtg like damp rock needs to, tr is also much more fleshed out than just cheese / fish and the abusers are quite worrywhirl, not as good as rain but melm n potentially wak needs a look at, definitely the former tho fs

-What do you think might need to be banned from the tier?

already mentioned in post before

-What do you think might be either underrated or overrated/overhyped?

zama, iron moth, weavile are mad underrated picks rn, strongly suggest looking into the latter 2, the former is broken lul. ghold i think is mediocre, thats rlly about it i suppose lol

-These pokemon recently got booted from NDUU:


What place does these Pokemon have in OU, in your opinion? Did they deserve to drop in UU?

ape is hella great super cool wincon if ur opponent is not using gliscor and it loves tera too much. espartha is a very mickey mouse mon and a bit overlooked for its brokenness, its cheese potential is actually hilarious and i think it is much scarier than smtg like kisspower mage. no opinions on xard but seems decent in this meta, same with maw too but does not like shit like treads and tusk existing. zama is broken pls ban it.

-More generally : what do you think of the tier as of now? Towards what do you expect it to evolve?

tier is ok, i still think its much worse than w/o tera but i can only cope, i cant predict much development bc magearna and cpao will be gone soon, and probably pult so that’ll change a ton, hope it does get better tho and we eventually suspect tera again because i cannot imagine a natdex where we ban damp rock because of fucking FLOATZEL.

ok bai

 

[Ryuji]

so so so, now that the tera suspect vote concluded i'd like to hear people opinions about the current metagame and how it might evolve, so here are some questions:

-What are your thoughts on the results of the suspect?

-What do you expect to be good? (Pokemon or strategies/archetypes in general)

-What do you think might need to be banned from the tier?

-What do you think might be either underrated or overrated/overhyped?

-These pokemon recently got booted from NDUU:


What place does these Pokemon have in OU, in your opinion? Did they deserve to drop in UU?

-More generally : what do you think of the tier as of now? Towards what do you expect it to evolve?

- guess i'm not happy but whatever. as b adem stated (one of the only good thing he said in years) pro tera ppl arguments were really poor and bad. but complaining won't change the outcome and we'll see how the tier evolves.

- bar the stuff mentionned in the on the radar thread i think shifu in generall w be p good, so as weav/gholdengo. ho will prob flop a bit, and bo/balanced are more than usable if you're willing to use an unaware mon in it. Fortunately Skeledirge is fcking busted so ig its time to use it in every team.

- half the tier (not even kidding). If names are needed prob all mon in the otr thread that came out, and if Rain is still as messed up maybe it's time we look for some abusers getting banned asw. Zama / Ape are prob going to follow, so as Marowak Alola and prob whatever new gimmicky mon ppl will find and use.

- litteraly everything usable (not kidding asw) cuz tera makes everything usable. If we're in a world where a shitty mon like floatzel can became that dangerous then the same could be applied for everything. It's even more true since 1- Pokehome comes in around a month or so and 2- a lot of stuff are unexplored. GF did a great thing by giving a lot of good setup moves to a lot of mons while nerfing reco (kek). so to me it's v simple, a lot of stuff have the potential to be broken, it just need to be explored.

- ban/mickey mouse + overatted/prob good rn/r good rn cuz soft pao check/ban. For more explanations Zama can 2HKO tias mega w cc and tera fight :skull:

- it sucks ass rn and will prob suck ass until a lot of mons are gone. tier is even more mickey mouse than before if we're in a state shedinja + damp rock are considered to be banned because of a gimmick.

 

[gigi44t44]

- guess i'm not happy but whatever. as b adem stated (one of the only good thing he said in years) pro tera ppl arguments were really poor and bad. but complaining won't change the outcome and we'll see how the tier evolves.

- bar the stuff mentionned in the on the radar thread i think shifu in generall w be p good, so as weav/gholdengo. ho will prob flop a bit, and bo/balanced are more than usable if you're willing to use an unaware mon in it. Fortunately Skeledirge is fcking busted so ig its time to use it in every team.

- half the tier (not even kidding). If names are needed prob all mon in the otr thread that came out, and if Rain is still as messed up maybe it's time we look for some abusers getting banned asw. Zama / Ape are prob going to follow, so as Marowak Alola and prob whatever new gimmicky mon ppl will find and use.

- litteraly everything usable (not kidding asw) cuz tera makes everything usable. If we're in a world where a shitty mon like floatzel can became that dangerous then the same could be applied for everything. It's even more true since 1- Pokehome comes in around a month or so and 2- a lot of stuff are unexplored. GF did a great thing by giving a lot of good setup moves to a lot of mons while nerfing reco (kek). so to me it's v simple, a lot of stuff have the potential to be broken, it just need to be explored.

- ban/mickey mouse + overatted/prob good rn/r good rn cuz soft pao check/ban. For more explanations Zama can 2HKO tias mega w cc and tera fight :skull:

- it sucks ass rn and will prob suck ass until a lot of mons are gone. tier is even more mickey mouse than before if we're in a state shedinja + damp rock are considered to be banned because of a gimmick.

has anyone tried the combo of rillaboom + grassy seed espathra to increase its defense upon switchin you can even use uturn to pivot and with the grassy terrain you have a form of recovery for rhe loss of leftovers
it seems preety good if you ask me

 

[Tanaka's Show]

has anyone tried the combo of rillaboom + grassy seed espathra to increase its defense upon switchin you can even use uturn to pivot and with the grassy terrain you have a form of recovery for rhe loss of leftovers
it seems preety good if you ask me

Could work but e-seed gives the same boost, while being able to run a better mon overall in the meta (Koko) which can set up screens and enables other mons outside of espathra (eleki/screen abusers)

so so so, now that the tera suspect vote concluded i'd like to hear people opinions about the current metagame and how it might evolve, so here are some questions:

-What are your thoughts on the results of the suspect?

-What do you expect to be good? (Pokemon or strategies/archetypes in general)

-What do you think might need to be banned from the tier?

-What do you think might be either underrated or overrated/overhyped?

-These pokemon recently got booted from NDUU:


What place does these Pokemon have in OU, in your opinion? Did they deserve to drop in UU?

-More generally : what do you think of the tier as of now? Towards what do you expect it to evolve?

- Lol. Although tera can be fun at times I really do think it's a silly mechanic that should've been banned. Natdex already is difficult enough to teambuild w/o leaving yourself weak to an archetype and tera just made that problem much worse.

- Damn near everything. Tera can make a lot of gimmicks really annoying with it's matchup-flipping nature so go crazy. Some notable things might be pokemon that benefit from tera blast as coverage/stab (Eleki, Band/DD Pult for example) or shedding your defensive typings (Garg, Ape, Skele, etc)

- Most of them are covered in the On the Radar post. Outside of those jokers probably pokemon like Alolawak, Zama, and potentially other weather abusers?

- Maybe not underrated but shoutouts to Weezing-G with Tera Steel helping me dodge a lot of bs in the meta. On a more serious note, Zama with Tera fighting is one of the best cleaners/breakers, Lele is still v good especially the CM set, Weavile is still an excellent pursuit trapper.

- Ape is still a good wincon that can checkmate a lot of teams, Espathra is one of the more difficult HO mons to handle, Xard is meh, Mmaw isn't bad but the meta isn't the most favorable to it, Zama is hella good stop sleeping on it.

- Not a fan and honestly taking a break until a lot of the tera abusers are banned. Accounting for stuff like Rain, TR, a variety of defensive mons, HO sweepers, Eleki, etc just isn't fun tbh.

 

[poop3]

Tera Fire Blacephalon can fill Chi-Yu's vacant niche. Since Heatran, Tyranitar, and x4 Fire resists are rare, there isn't a lot stopping Blacephalon from spamming nuclear Fire-type attacks, and netting one KO virtually guarantees netting a second once Beast Boost procs:

252+ SpA Beads of Ruin Tera Fire Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Diancie-Mega: 197-232 (81.7 - 96.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Beads of Ruin Tera Fire Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 269-317 (84.8 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Tera Fire Blacephalon Mind Blown vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Diancie-Mega: 186-219 (77.1 - 90.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Tera Fire Blacephalon Mind Blown vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 254-299 (80.1 - 94.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Tera Fire Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Diancie-Mega: 165-195 (68.4 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Tera Fire Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 227-268 (71.6 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

These % dictate how soon in the game you can deploy your balance breaker and have it make an impact. Dracovish and Darmanitan-Galar could lead and do big damage and required specific defensive checks - there were almost no offensive switch ins save, in Dracovish's case, Dracovish itself.

Chi-Yu could also open, but tended to make a bigger impact after a few turns of Stealth Rock damage softened up the enemy team. Offensive switch-ins to that type combo were common in Gen 7, grew rarer in Gen 8 and are rarer still in Gen 9. The weaker the team the less need for Overheat, allowing Chi-Yu to clean with Flamethrower/Dark Pulse from mid game on.

Blacephalon needs more support to grill resists but after one kill, it's much harder to stop at +1, and it has similar moves to Chi-Yu with Overheat, Flamethrower, and Shadow Ball filling in for Dark Pulse. Specs Blacephalon is also capable of this:

+1 252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Fire Blacephalon Mind Blown vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Pelipper in Rain: 301-355 (93.1 - 109.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Fire Blacephalon Mind Blown vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Pelipper in Rain: 301-355 (93.1 - 109.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

(the actual numbers look wrong for that specs calc)

Chi-Yu is clearly better, with a superior overall typing, stat spread and ability. But with tera, Blacephalon has the tools it needs to do an Uber impression.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Unfortunately for Blacephalon, Mind Blown is nowhere near as spammable as Overheat, as it will be severely crippled after a single use due to recoil. Chi-Yu was so good because it didn't have to commit suicide to nuke opponents. Even resisted hits will KO Blacephalon if it fails to OHKO the opponent.

 

[Payasiko]

Dragapult is just too op for this tier. Now, without Magearna, Regieleki and Chien-Pao, it's stronger than ever. Imo it should be suspected asap.

 

[Tanaka's Show]

I'd like to share some quick thoughts on some of the bans and give some of the biggest winners of said bans.

- The mon I'm most glad to see gone. Hard to defensively answer and even harder to deal with offensively especially if you lack strong priority.

- A mon I'm conflicted about for sure. Specs was a fun breaker and Spikes was a brilliant defensive pivot. However, its set up sets were incredibly difficult to answer. Stuff like SG+CM, TR, even stuff like ID+CM were all very annoying to deal with. Overall glad to see it gone but gonna miss the spikes set.

- Thank GOD this mon is gone. Tera Dark Band was one of the worst things to deal with and its other sets like darknium, Tera Elec, SD boots were all strong as well. Good riddance.

- I really love this mon, I do. But FUCK the CB TR set. It was nigh-uncounterable and even though I love its other sets this set alone was banworthy for sure. However, the T-Wave gloves set was amazing and other sets like AV/ToxTect was fun as well.

Anyways onto to the winners.

- This mon won BIG time. Not only is its most direct competition gone, but also multiple pokemon that can revenge kill it and check it. Expect this mon to rise exponentially in usage.

- Pult won really hard as well. Tera Ice Eleki and Shard/Sucker Pao won't be able to RK it, Bulky Melm/Mage sets won't be there to check its DD/Band/Specs sets and one less fairy to blank Draco is always nice for it.

- Although the recovery nerf still stings and other unaware mons still roam the tier Latias is definitely better than it was before. Not letting Mage set up/RK it, CPao not being able to KO it, and Melm not being able to kill/cripple it is amazing and lets it set up much easier.

- Not the biggest winner but not having to worry about TR melm, Set Up mage, Ice Eleki and Cpao help it do it's job much easier.

Although I didn't write all the winners (stuff like mlop benefits from the bans too) I think that these are some of the big ones. What do you guys think?

 

[sactownzapdos]

I was not aware we were suspect testing those 5 mons and mostly agree on the bans. However, I still feel that the biggest threat is still roaming free: Choice Specs Battle Bond Tera *anything* Greninja

Not sure how much I need to elaborate to avoid the one liner but there is not much more to say.

Oh, also I disagree with mirroring regular OU bans. I think Cyclizar brought good balance to as a scarfed counter for rain/sun teams that rely on speed.
Hope we get a chance to suspect test in the future

 

[Nish the Great]

I was not aware we were suspect testing those 5 mons and mostly agree on the bans. However, I still feel that the biggest threat is still roaming free: Choice Specs Battle Bond Tera *anything* Greninja

Not sure how much I need to elaborate to avoid the one liner but there is not much more to say.

Oh, also I disagree with mirroring regular OU bans. I think Cyclizar brought good balance to as a scarfed counter for rain/sun teams that rely on speed.
Hope we get a chance to suspect test in the future

battle bond gren seems pretty manageable to me in my experience with any decent special tank. It feels kinda like z-celebrate victini with how inconsistent but potentially game-winning it is

 

[Payasiko]

I was not aware we were suspect testing those 5 mons and mostly agree on the bans. However, I still feel that the biggest threat is still roaming free: Choice Specs Battle Bond Tera *anything* Greninja

Not sure how much I need to elaborate to avoid the one liner but there is not much more to say.

Oh, also I disagree with mirroring regular OU bans. I think Cyclizar brought good balance to as a scarfed counter for rain/sun teams that rely on speed.
Hope we get a chance to suspect test in the future

battle bond gren seems pretty manageable to me in my experience with any decent special tank. It feels kinda like z-celebrate victini with how inconsistent but potentially game-winning it is

How about combining both concepts? Let me introduce you the Z-Happy Hour Battle Bond Greninja:

Bluff & Buff Set

Greninja @ Normalium Z
Ability: Battle Bond
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Happy Hour

It's a wonderful late-game cleaner and the way it works is very simple: you bait with the KO and just Z-HH as your enemy switches to avoid the BB boost. Then you get your kill and sweep. The snowballing potential of this mon is terrific. You can also run Modest with Surf instead of HPump but it's not as useful if you can't manage to get the boost.

However, the combination of unaware mons with Tera and strong priority moves users (Gren is frail even with the Z boost) makes this set less reliable than it looks. Anyway, it was one of the first sets I made for Gren when the new gen was released and I find it very fun.

 

[Jho]

Thought I'd drop a little post on why I voted the way I did on the most recent council ban slate. I voted DNB on almost everything and a few people have asked me why so heres a post on my thoughts instead.

The way I approached my thoughts on the slate were: what is the most immediate problem in the tier, how do we solve it, what changes when its solved. My opinion that Magearna was the biggest issue facing the tier didn't seem to be too uncommon, especially considering the uanimous ban vote from the council. Magearna was the center of the tier I think its fair to say, you had to build and play around set up sets, consider specs sets, build around being able to break fat sets, and have your removal be advantageous vs its Spikes set. Considering this I thought it was pretty obvious that Magearna was the biggest issue facing the tier, banning it would solve it, and the whole tier would change upon it being banned.

Ok so why did I vote DNB on everything bar Magearna and Chien Pao -

Damp Rock

Rain has been fairly controversial in the tier since it got some pretty hefty buffs this generation. Floatzel getting Wave Crash, Urshifu getting Swords Dance, the whole team having access to Tera Water, Tornadus-T being back, and Regieleki being useable to name a few. Since the Water-type attacks on Rain are so powerful now with the addition of Water-Tera's pseudo Adaptability back up by Rain boost and STAB, the argument for it being broken was that Water-resists were not enough and teams had to have one of the few availavle Water Absorb or Storm Drain Pokemon just to handle the Water Stab. This doesn't help when said Water Absorb or Storm Drain users cannot switch into coverage from the Rain Player and they are also making occasional use of something like Tera Grass Regieleki to deal with Gastrodon.

I actually agree with most of this sentiment, however, I do feel like the inability to use traditional Water-resists is somewhat overblown. This is especially true in the post-ban Metagame where Chien Pao cannot punish your bulky Grass-types such as Amoongus, Tangrowth etc as easily. The Magearna ban also promotes more Ferrothorn usage as the capabilities of the Steel-type defensive utility and Spikes is a spot which needs filling again. All of these meta trends I believed would create a metagame where Rain was at more of a disadvantage and I thought that it would be worth testing to see how it functions with bulky Grass-types being better options, as well as no Regieleki to massively dissuade utilizing Water-type Tera to check Rains offenses.

I think Rain is very good, I was not sure it was or would be over the top in the way that Magearna was and therefore thought it deserved to be looked at in a more disadvantageous environment. I have been testing out things such as Fairy-type Tera Gastrodon, Utility Umbrella Amoongus, Protosynthesis teams, Dragonite, Tapu Bulu, Tangrowth, and of course Water-type Tera Great Tusk. I think all of these are mostly reasonable picks and not deadweight in non-Rain matchups and while stuff like Ferrothorn, Slowbro, and non-Umbrella Amoongus can get smacked by Floatzel, I think killing itself in recoil over 2 hits and using the teams Tera is an ok trade off for being able to break through Water resists especially when some options like Tangrowth or using utility umbrella can make that sacrifice moot.

Definitely worth keeping an eye on, not on the level of Magearna where I would be willing to quick ban it without giving it more time under more scrutiny.

Dragapult

Dragapult is inarguably one of the best Pokemon in the metagame at the minute. Specs sets can click very strong Shadow Balls very freely and pivot with U-turn to wear down potential switch-ins like Mega Tyranitar, AV Magearna, AV Kingambit, Ting Lu etc. The problem arises from Dragapult when the counterplay for its Specs sets differs from its DD set creating scenarios where you are forced into your Specs Dragapult check only for it to Dragon Dance and immediatley win the game as you are forced to either switch to the correct check, giving it another Dragon Dance boost or a Substitue, or sack something. Before the bans, I dont think this happened too often as Pokemon such as Kingambit, Mega Tyranitar, and Magearna checked both sets relativley well and only failed to hold up against the much much rarer Wisp Hex variants.

Dragon Dance is the Dragapult set that most people seem to take issue with and I believe that even after the bans we have a good few Pokemon who can eat a hit from +1 Dragapult such as Great Tusk, Zamazenta, and Kingambit to name a few. I also think that this set suffers greatly from Tera staying in the metagame as Dragapult is absolutely reliant on deleting its check with Never Ending Nightmare if it doesn't die to Dragon Darts. Being able to flip typings is a big detriment to Dragapult whose stabs both have immunities leading to opportunities for the Dragapult to be heavily punished by a well timed Tera Fairy, or Tera Normal both of which are not exceedingly uncommon and very useable.

Losing Chien Pao and Regieleki does push Dragapult up a little in my opinion and it is definitely the Pokemon which the council are watching closest right now. A suspect has been discussed and suggested but nothing concrete has been drawn up at present while the post-ban metagame settles down a bit and we see where Dragapult ends up. I think Weavile coming back with the Chien Pao ban might also keep it a little more honest but we shall have to see.

Melmetal

Melmetal was probably my most contentious DNB vote as I believe I was the only person on the council to vote DNB as Kyo technically abstained but it didn't matter to the final outcome. I know the community has been in general uproar over the Tera Steel Banded Double Iron Bash damage from Melmetal and how it has catapulted Trick Room to the top, however, I dont believe it actually changed that much for Trick Room and ended up voting DNB on this premise.

My thinking was that Trick Room has always been the team that has ridiculously strong breakers that are limited by turns and the onus was on the opponent to capitalize on the lack of turns Trick Room had to punish them when their breakers were weak. Traditionally Alolawak, Mega Mawile, and even Melmetal itself have blown through checks and the opposing player would have to carefully manage sacs and minimize the damage during Trick Room turns and maximize their own progress when Trick Room dropped. While Tera steel allowed Melmetal to push through checks more consistently, it doesnt really change anything in regards to counterplay vs Trick Room. You still make smart sacs in order to set up the biggest punish you can when the Trick Room turns are over.

Melmetal being exceedingly bulky does make punishing it harder but definitely not too much of a tall task with the options we have available to us in the metagame. I honestly didnt think Trick Room was even that good, let alone warranted a ban like this. I did really like Melmetal defensively in the metagame, however, sets other than Tera Steel played very little part in the councils ban discussion from what I am aware, a few other sets were briefly mentioned but nothing serious.

Regieleki

Regieleki was a weird one for me and the one I was most on the fence about but I ultimately decided to vote DNB for a few reasons. These are mostly the fact that Regieleki HAS to reveal its Tera vs a Ground-type and once it has revealed that it becomes a little easier to deal with. On top of this, the tier had an incredible amount of really strong priority and even speed control options which could actually outpace Regieleki.

The single most oppressive thing I thought Regieleki bought to the metageme was the ability to prevent your Ground-type from utilising Tera. Not being able to Tera-Water Great Tusk, for example, put you at such a huge disadvantage and that was the main reason I was considering a ban vote at all.

Overall I wasnt really married to any opinion either way on Regieleki and am still quite glad its gone despite voting DNB but I believed that even with Tera making it an absolute menace, options were there to deal with it consistently enough that I didn't think it should be banned just yet.

Moving Forward

As I've mentioned above, as a whole the council is keeping a very close eye on Dragapult at the minute but Rain and other things that weren't on the radar this time, such as Zamazenta, are also being watched.

Personally I think Zamazenta is very good and could possibly be the target for tiering action in the future but right now, its just that, very good and not overbearing. I am really liking Idef Press, Howl Electrium Z, Choice Scarf, and Choice Band Zamazenta and I'm sure theres a few more good sets out there for it that people havent found yet.

Gholdengo is a Pokemon that way more people have bought up than I thought would. This Pokemon is like, hard mid A tier here as our removal options are way better and we have much better options for punishing its honestly quite lackluster stats. Don't get me wrong I think its definitley okay and now that Magearna and Melmetal have gone, defensive Steel-type stocks have gone up and I think Gholdengo is one of the main benefactors of this other than Ferrothorn and Mega Scizor. But yeah I think as long as Great Tusk and Tornadus-T run the hazard game, and Mega Lopunny exists its hard to consider Gholdengo broken in the slightest.

VR Man

Some friends who wanted to get into NatDex asked me for my opinions on the metagame Post Bans and I ended up making a pretty rough personal VR with my first impressions of the tier. Its missing some things because the Tier Maker didnt have them all but I'm sure you can figure out where Floatzel and Excadrill go based on everything else. Nothings in order I just threw them into the tiers in the order they were in the Tier Maker thing. Just to give you a rough idea of what I think of the metagame rn wouldn't take it as gospel because like I said it is just my very first impressions but I like it.

 

[poop3]

Personally I think Zamazenta is very good and could possibly be the target for tiering action in the future but right now, its just that, very good and not overbearing. I am really liking Idef Press, Howl Electrium Z, Choice Scarf, and Choice Band Zamazenta and I'm sure theres a few more good sets out there for it that people havent found yet.

Zamazenta w/tera shapes the tier in a good way. It's not impossible to stop on offense but easy to answer defensively, so it encouages using those defensive Pokemon who also stuff Rain teams. Toxapex and Slowbro, Pokemon who have fallen by the wayside in Gen 9, wall Zama's Fairy/Steel/Fighting teras. Mega Venusaur is also a strong answer to most sets, even the Steel one since the main form of damage is Body Press.

Gholdengo is a Pokemon that way more people have bought up than I thought would. This Pokemon is like, hard mid A tier here as our removal options are way better and we have much better options for punishing its honestly quite lackluster stats. Don't get me wrong I think its definitley okay and now that Magearna and Melmetal have gone, defensive Steel-type stocks have gone up and I think Gholdengo is one of the main benefactors of this other than Ferrothorn and Mega Scizor. But yeah I think as long as Great Tusk and Tornadus-T run the hazard game, and Mega Lopunny exists its hard to consider Gholdengo broken in the slightest.

None of those Pokemon can switch into specs. I still consider that the best set by far.

Most Trick users are fairly lackluster after they've tricked away their item, but Gholdengo is probably the best Trick user ever. No Pokemon before it has managed to fit spammable one-move offense in the form of MIR/Shadow Ball with that strong a defensive profile, along with recovery and one of the fastest boosting moves in the game.

Gholdengo hasn't been able to fully shine due to balance's ongoing extinction, which is amusing when you look at its current 9-18% usage across all natdex elo. But the rise of defensive cores means more it has more victims, and Gholdengo is potentially its own best answer and check depending on what it's running.

The only counterplay to specs I've seen is running a Mega on every team (usually Lopunny or Scizor) or having one mon with Assault Vest. Mega Scizor and Mega Lopunny alone are not checks if Gholdengo runs Shadow Ball or MIR, respectively. So one needs to run Heatran alongside Mega Lopunny or Tyranitar alongside Mega Scizor. Needing two Pokemon to cover one set is a little excessive, no?

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Zamazenta w/tera shapes the tier in a good way. It's not impossible to stop on offense but easy to answer defensively, so it encouages using those defensive Pokemon who also stuff Rain teams. Toxapex and Slowbro, Pokemon who have fallen by the wayside in Gen 9, wall Zama's Fairy/Steel/Fighting teras. Mega Venusaur is also a strong answer to most sets, even the Steel one since the main form of damage is Body Press.



None of those Pokemon can switch into specs. I still consider that the best set by far.

Most Trick users are fairly lackluster after they've tricked away their item, but Gholdengo is probably the best Trick user ever. No Pokemon before it has managed to fit spammable one-move offense in the form of MIR/Shadow Ball with that strong a defensive profile, along with recovery and one of the fastest boosting moves in the game.

Gholdengo hasn't been able to fully shine due to balance's ongoing extinction, which is amusing when you look at its current 9-18% usage across all natdex elo. But the rise of defensive cores means more it has more victims, and Gholdengo is potentially its own best answer and check depending on what it's running.

The only counterplay to specs I've seen is running a Mega on every team (usually Lopunny or Scizor) or having one mon with Assault Vest. Mega Scizor and Mega Lopunny alone are not checks if Gholdengo runs Shadow Ball or MIR, respectively. So one needs to run Heatran alongside Mega Lopunny or Tyranitar alongside Mega Scizor. Needing two Pokemon to cover one set is a little excessive, no?

Bro why you quoted me, I didn't say anything about Gholdengo lol

 

[dtc09]

Hoopa-Unbound @ Choice Specs
Ability: Magician
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Dark Pulse
- Psyshock
- Focus Blast
- Destiny Bond / idk

funny trick room mon that can 6-0 certain matchups and that has no switchins with dark pulse alone bar from ttar/tinglu (die to fmiss) and the
blobs (2hkoed by psyshock, though they are a good check as you can then you to something that takes shock and waste tr turns). the hp investment also lets you tank an occasional hit and later get healing wished, while you resist sucker and have great special bulk. dark pulse also has that annoying 30% flinch rate, sorta like a special melmetal with less hax chance that loses to blobs and gets killed more easily. oh yeah and you can also run band if you want to blast the blobs, though most dark resists are more physically bulky. alternatively something like mixed LO w/dpulse fmiss psyshock/psychic hyperspace fury can also work to be less prediction reliant while beating blobs though you're less bulky as a result. dbond's there just because i have to idea what else to add as dark pulse is a one-move army, so you can at least get an emergency kill. can be a pretty big matchup fish but you're playing trick room so you're already matchup fishing

dark pulse calcs

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Dark Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk: 289-341 (77.8 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Dark Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Lopunny-Mega: 182-215 (67.1 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Dark Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta: 156-184 (48 - 56.6%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Dark Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 288-340 (67.6 - 79.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Dark Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: 266-313 (78 - 91.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Dark Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 228-270 (64.7 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Dark Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Koko: 221-261 (78.6 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Dark Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Iron Valiant: 133-156 (46 - 53.9%) -- 50% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Dark Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 112 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 201-237 (54.4 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Dark Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 422-498 (110.4 - 130.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Dark Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex: 248-292 (81.5 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Dark Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Diancie-Mega: 162-191 (67.2 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Dark Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 141-166 (40.9 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (fini doesn't even 2hko)

oh yeah and pult and zama are fucking broken get them out