Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

[Wildfiree]

It’s not annoying to account, it’s near impossible to account, you’ll have to use choice scarfers and priority, it is near impossible to check defensively
Saying that isn’t broken since you’re already trying to check as many mons as possible is a massive understatement
+2 sp. Atk can ohko with focus blast all out pummeling, even if is max sp. def
The only defensive check is
And choice scarf and priority is standard, but the only good priority in the tier is bullet punch and e-speed

I agree to an extent although I think saying impossible is a stretch. Every mon has some sort of counterplay but when it’s small or limited that’s where a Mon is considered unhealthy or banworthy that’s what darkrai falls under and yes it should be banned because it’s the poster child of the state the meta is in.

 

[sh0shin]

+2 252 SpA Darkrai All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Kommo-o: 325-383 (91.8 - 108.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
is utterly useless

what kommo that's full spdef wouldn't also have the + nature. random calc
kommo can bait pummeling and be immune thereon to focus blast and sludge bomb while resisting STAB (still gets boomed by psyshock or ice beam +2 though)
psyshock darkrai is niche but has been run for the likes of clodsire and probably chansey. gotta burn tera dark to stop it on clod if it's packing psyshock (i dont see clods though)

calc

+2 252 SpA Darkrai Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 238-280 (37 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Unaware Clodsire: 272-320 (58.6 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

not supporting darkrai per se, perhaps even moreso pointing out the frustration to prep for it.

 

[sh0shin]

If we are simply resorting to saying , , are the most effective ways to answer darkrai isn’t that a tell-tale sign the meta is not in a great state for other playstyles at the moment ? gets blown up by fightnium-z. While does well into most sets that are not ice beam it does also get blown up by fightinium. Kommo actually have been the contributor to the rise of fight z since it does ok vs rai on some occasions. Nastyplot z destroys common Bulky offense and balance cores. Truth be told I haven’t heard a shred about balance in awhile due to this heavily offensive meta. This is not ok keeping this broken Mon here is not the wave. I must reiterate if offensive mons are always the forefront of the discussion to answer darkrai that’s already a problem in itself.

yeah i gotta say while i love spamming the goat ival and the borked tera psyshic scarf lele, it does feel almost required when running offense to have at least one of those. almost. i'm running more koko these days too just in case there's a sleep set on the darkrai :| lol but that still doesn't solve the guaranteed speed boost

 

[HunterNeverHere9]

psyshock darkrai is niche but has been run for the likes of clodsire and probably chansey. gotta burn tera dark to stop it on clod if it's packing psyshock (i dont see clods though)

and / are all mid and uncommon and imo are pretty passive. The only utility they provide is toxic and sr, maybe stall some stupid ppl and that's it. and get to seismic toss them though and could just switch

 

[boppydop!]

I think the issue with what you're saying is you're applying a long term mindset to a short term mon. If darkrai is going to be consistently allowing in strong breakers such as iron valiant, mega lopunny or urshifu to gain momentum every time it clicks dark pulse (although i am aware it also has coverage for these), then it won't be able to come in 4 or 5 times to be able to kill these checks over time. It's relatively vulnerable to being chipped down by hazards and it's weak to u-turn allowing it to be freely pivoted on without worrying about them staying in and claiming another kill. The offensive teams that it thrives on can't afford to let in strong breakers every time it clicks a move because they don't have the strong defensive profiles of fat or balance. It's essentially like saying that tapu lele is broken because heatran can't switchin to specs tera psychic more than 2-3 times - which in practice is true but in reality every time that heatran comes in it gets rocks, a toxic or a potential trap/huge chip with magma storm, often gaining massive progress. Of course sure if we just look at it in a vacuum heatran can't switchin more than 2-3 times, bulky mega scizor is 2hkod and most dark types are frail or prone to hazard chip, not to mention that they're nailed by moonblast, but in an actual game it doesn't function that way - and I think that's what people are getting wrong with darkrai.

It's obviously on another level to something like hoopa-u or ursaluna just due to it's speed tier, good defenses and great coverage, but if we use the same mentality and put those pokemon in a vacuum of only the turn where they're attacking - then they're broken as well. Before you haha react me into the ground i'm not saying to ban ursaluna or hoopa and i'm not comparing them to darkrai in power, i'm just showing the flaw of the mentality that many pro darkrai banners use. There IS counterplay to darkrai, just not in the form of some blanket check that beats every single set, which is fine. Most people are going to be running darkium z for example, so something like ting lu, mega tyranitar, spdef clefable, clodsire or defensive kommo o are fine as checks and all of these are able to get value out of darkrai in some way such as getting up hazards, clicking status, or setting up. Once darkrai uses it's z move it becomes significantly less threatening and it's usually not difficult to land a toxic on it with a toxapex or gliscor and at that point it's on a timer, not to mention that many offensive and defensive mons can tera to beat it from almost any position.

That being said, I still understand that it's not on the chopping block for no reason - it is extremely powerful and can be overbearing if you don't know how to play around it - but I think it's wrong to say that it has 0 checks at all, especially because many people assume that it has every set at once when listing out it's checks (for example if its against iron valiant it beats it because of scarf, if it's against ting lu it beats it because of z fighting etc, despite saying that you should always run darkium). For example it's never going to be getting a nasty plot off while there's an urshifu on the opposing team that is immediately coming out every time darkrai comes in, and every time that urshifu comes out it's freely able to click u turn on darkrai as it's weak to it. Even if it lives and stays in it's now on a significant timer as it's weak to hazards due to being low on health meaning that urshifu can now outlast it, not to mention that with every u turn the urshifu is going to be bringing out some big breaker like ursaluna or yard to claim a kill.

I'm personally neither pro ban or against the ban. I think the meta will be able to deal with darkrai if it stays through the rise of pokemon such as chesnaught, kommo o, ting lu, scarf fini and spdef clefable - but I also think that it would take a big burden off of the meta if it's gone.

which is why i made an entire section on how its changed the meta to inhabit a faster playstyle(offense)
this is basically what makes bulkier builds so bad, they cant play the long game with breakers like darkrai bc everytime it comes it something just dies, this basically opens the stage for offense, a very fast momentum heavy archetype, to be so prevalent, not letting darkrai have switch ins and not having games be over 30-40 turns. which is why a lot of people agree on its ban as a stepping stone to let other playstyles be more viable

its not that im using the fact that darkrai has so many sets that can beat its checks to why its getting banned, its moreso adding onto how problematic darkrai can be due to not knowing what it could click, a scarfed darkrai clicking sludge on koko could flip the entire game state.

yes, with something like ursaluna you can intimidate with rocky helm lando and then pivot to smth like ferro and basically subject it to having to make reads in order to not get chipped majorly, however darkrai rarely has this issue, the counterplay is trying to get ur speed control in to force it out, which oftentimes is really difficult, as it has the coverage to beat mtar and ting lu, and fairies like clef as well, it has that speed tier to be able to basically click whatever

mtar gets focus blasted, and even at +0 its ohko after rocks iirc
ting lu cant really do anything back due to darkrai’s good bulk, you just force it out while taking a ton from focus blast(headcalc 70?)
spdef clef is noticably worse than pdef, since its fairy typing is much more preferred for a physical blanket wall for mlop shifu tusk etc
the inability to use that fairy typing to check mlop effectively is generally pretty sad
clodsire is… pretty bad! it really only fits on stall
kommo i will admit isnt even bad, but its rise in defensive usage by a lot of players is bc of powerhouses like rai and pon, and its not easily slottable
basically just a niche defensive option that rised solely bc of darkrai and friends

also, darkrai could just hard dark pulse into that urshifu and force it to tank that alongside rocks/spikes and chip from partners(which should be alongside it). your argument here is a game state outside of a vacuum but outside of a vacuum(ive already mentioned this in the original post) it has other duties on a team besides just being a darkrai check, which oftentimes results in decent chip aside from rai that doesnt allow it to be a rai check efficiently(again, the best cplay to this is to not let darkrai in… back to the spam offense circle thats making the tier bad).

also, you have to be trolling by mentioning fini and chesnaught there

 

[IRONM0NK3Y808]

Not just but all of offense. Why run balance/fat/stall when you could run offense which with the current meta, destroys all the other playstyles? is practically friendly fire towards offense, its own playstyle

You don't have to reply to every single post, just saying

 

[boppydop!]

Not just but all of offense. Why run balance/fat/stall when you could run offense which with the current meta, destroys all the other playstyles? is practically friendly fire towards offense, its own playstyle

in general you also seem kinda clueless..
not to be insulting here but im not sure if you have good meta knowledge atm, your takes are kinda piggybacking off of others and not necessarily aiming at the issue as a whole
just you dont have to reply to everything and if you intend to, do it all in one big message so its not so cluttered and makes replying to your statements easier

 

[FirstlyMe]

Soon darkrai is gonna be banned (or at least I hope), what could you use?

It has a powerful dark pulse (which although is not as strong as darkrai’s, does still hit pretty hard) and stab on hydro pump, has water shrunken for priority making it useful for revenge killing, and if u don’t like how inaccurate or weak the moves I mentioned (respectively) are then use surf, u have u turn for momentum, spike and toxic spike for quick hazards (however I personally won’t recommend running a hazard set as greninja is far from bulky) and it has wide coverage with moves like ice beam, grass knot, gunk shot, etc. Greninja can make plenty use out of Z crystals but I personally will recommend boots or specs more

Note: This is niche, only try it if you’re good
Mega houndoom trades some speed for more fire power then darkrai, use it under sun and this dog can be an amazing wall breaker, it has an incredibly powerful dark pulse and it has extremely useful fire stab to melt steels, pair it with hidden power grass or hp ice for coverage and sludge bomb for fairies, but that’s where it ends in terms of variety for mega houndoom or houndoom is general. And if you are able to find the right time to, you can set up with nasty plot.

Hydreigon is criminally underrated in my opinion, I pair it with a choice scarf to fix its lacking speed problem or give it dragon dance on a physical or mixed set, oh yes, hydreigon is able to run mixed sets sine it’s attack stat is 115, which is usable but it excels in its special attack which is 125, hydreigon has the best of all worlds with it’s massive pool of coverage including: Earth power, flamethrower, flash cannon, etc. Hydreigon also has u turn for momentum. Hydreigon is also a usable wall breaker and it can Tera out of its fairy weakness.

I feel like Greninja is the most noob friendly one out of all of these, and I just picked dark types with high special attack lol, but I’m pretty sure that these are able to fill in a large role darkrai held.

 

[Wildfiree]

Soon darkrai is gonna be banned (or at least I hope), what could you use?

It has a powerful dark pulse (which although is not as strong as darkrai’s, does still hit pretty hard) and stab on hydro pump, has water shrunken for priority making it useful for revenge killing, and if u don’t like how inaccurate or weak the moves I mentioned (respectively) are then use surf, u have u turn for momentum, spike and toxic spike for quick hazards (however I personally won’t recommend running a hazard set as greninja is far from bulky) and it has wide coverage with moves like ice beam, grass knot, gunk shot, etc. Greninja can make plenty use out of Z crystals but I personally will recommend boots or specs more

Note: This is niche, only try it if you’re good
Mega houndoom trades some speed for more fire power then darkrai, use it under sun and this dog can be an amazing wall breaker, it has an incredibly powerful dark pulse and it has extremely useful fire stab to melt steels, pair it with hidden power grass or hp ice for coverage and sludge bomb for fairies, but that’s where it ends in terms of variety for mega houndoom or houndoom is general. And if you are able to find the right time to, you can set up with nasty plot.

Hydreigon is criminally underrated in my opinion, I pair it with a choice scarf to fix its lacking speed problem or give it dragon dance on a physical or mixed set, oh yes, hydreigon is able to run mixed sets sine it’s attack stat is 115, which is usable but it excels in its special attack which is 125, hydreigon has the best of all worlds with it’s massive pool of coverage including: Earth power, flamethrower, flash cannon, etc. Hydreigon also has u turn for momentum. Hydreigon is also a usable wall breaker and it can Tera out of its fairy weakness.

I feel like Greninja is the most noob friendly one out of all of these, and I just picked dark types with high special attack lol, but I’m pretty sure that these are able to fill in a large role darkrai held.

I’d love to see hydra back in action again ngl

 

[boppydop!]

Soon darkrai is gonna be banned (or at least I hope), what could you use?

It has a powerful dark pulse (which although is not as strong as darkrai’s, does still hit pretty hard) and stab on hydro pump, has water shrunken for priority making it useful for revenge killing, and if u don’t like how inaccurate or weak the moves I mentioned (respectively) are then use surf, u have u turn for momentum, spike and toxic spike for quick hazards (however I personally won’t recommend running a hazard set as greninja is far from bulky) and it has wide coverage with moves like ice beam, grass knot, gunk shot, etc. Greninja can make plenty use out of Z crystals but I personally will recommend boots or specs more

Note: This is niche, only try it if you’re good
Mega houndoom trades some speed for more fire power then darkrai, use it under sun and this dog can be an amazing wall breaker, it has an incredibly powerful dark pulse and it has extremely useful fire stab to melt steels, pair it with hidden power grass or hp ice for coverage and sludge bomb for fairies, but that’s where it ends in terms of variety for mega houndoom or houndoom is general. And if you are able to find the right time to, you can set up with nasty plot.

Hydreigon is criminally underrated in my opinion, I pair it with a choice scarf to fix its lacking speed problem or give it dragon dance on a physical or mixed set, oh yes, hydreigon is able to run mixed sets sine it’s attack stat is 115, which is usable but it excels in its special attack which is 125, hydreigon has the best of all worlds with it’s massive pool of coverage including: Earth power, flamethrower, flash cannon, etc. Hydreigon also has u turn for momentum. Hydreigon is also a usable wall breaker and it can Tera out of its fairy weakness.

I feel like Greninja is the most noob friendly one out of all of these, and I just picked dark types with high special attack lol, but I’m pretty sure that these are able to fill in a large role darkrai held.

for a dark special attacker i think nasty plot z hydrei sets could be experimented w/ and imo is the most usable out of those 3

 

[sh0shin]

i have been making a ton of greninja teams lately and i think tbh it's usable regardless of ban. i'm not gonna submit a sample team with it any time soon, but indeed, the old anti-meta 4 attack protean scarf sets are still good, too. its speed tier is just enough to make iron valiant sweat which is nice.

 

[Faux Focalors Furina]

Hello everyone! ^^

Now that people are mainly leaning towards a ban during suspect, I was wondering what are other good abusers of z-hypnosis? While it may be a gimmick after but I think it can be a niche strategy to catch your opponent off guard if placed on the right mon. Like & are know users of it (with the latter being UUBL mostly for that reason) but are there any other mons that can fill that niche like gengar with hex+nasty plot?

 

[HunterNeverHere9]

Hello everyone! ^^

Now that people are mainly leaning towards a ban during suspect, I was wondering what are other good abusers of z-hypnosis? While it may be a gimmick after but I think it can be a niche strategy to catch your opponent off guard if placed on the right mon. Like & are know users of it (with the latter being UUBL mostly for that reason) but are there any other mons that can fill that niche like gengar with hex+nasty plot?

Realistically only is the only and best abuser of z hypnosis since prefers choice or booster and why are you running

 

[boppydop!]

Hello everyone! ^^

Now that people are mainly leaning towards a ban during suspect, I was wondering what are other good abusers of z-hypnosis? While it may be a gimmick after but I think it can be a niche strategy to catch your opponent off guard if placed on the right mon. Like & are know users of it (with the latter being UUBL mostly for that reason) but are there any other mons that can fill that niche like gengar with hex+nasty plot?

hypnosis from the likes of iron valiant and xurkitree
spore/sleep power from the likes of hisiuan lilligant, brute bonnet, breloom, amoongus, tangrowth, smeargle (sleep power mvenu insane tech dont sleep)
meloetta if real

 

[Sami]

Darkrai banned? Balance is finally back? Mega Banette is broken now? Stay tuned for more epic National Dex OU shenanigans.

 

[IRONM0NK3Y808]

I still think the meta is going to be overly offensive even with darkrai gone - we still need to deal with monsters like ogerpon and potentially gouging fire before balance is actually going to be in a strong position. Banning darkrai was a step in the right direction but it hasn't solved the entire issue on it's own for sure.

 

[Wildfiree]

I still think the meta is going to be overly offensive even with darkrai gone - we still need to deal with monsters like ogerpon and potentially gouging fire before balance is actually going to be in a strong position. Banning darkrai was a step in the right direction but it hasn't solved the entire issue on it's own for sure.

Agree with this we still have and running amuck which I think should be dealt with. Ogerpon can be a complete monster to deal with especially playing with bulky offense builds depending on its 4th move slot it can usually be a major pain. It defeats common defensive Pokémon on these builds like ( gets wrecked by super power), (which can’t take any neutral hit from it very well), ( usually a soft check vs most physical attackers but not in this case due to its water typing). Moreover, stuff that should check it theoretically like could lose depending if it slots play rough or not. While it cannot slot all four moves and it has slight 4mss, it’s the simple thought of the possibility it’s running such coverage it can be a pain in the builder and in practice. Then there is which pretty much blows away any Mon that is supposed to answer it on the physical side is the spectrum such as and which can pretty much get deleted by z if boosted. Additionally, by nature if its fire typing it cannot be burned so you try to resort to other methods like twave or toxic to deal with its dd set.

 

[about15gals]

Agree with this we still have and running amuck which I think should be dealt with. Ogerpon can be a complete monster to deal with especially playing with bulky offense builds depending on its 4th move slot it can usually be a major pain. It defeats common defensive Pokémon on these builds like ( gets wrecked by super power), (which can’t take any neutral hit from it very well), ( usually a soft check vs most physical attackers but not in this case due to its water typing). Moreover, stuff that should check it theoretically like could lose depending if it slots play rough or not. While it cannot slot all four moves and it has slight 4mss, it’s the simple thought of the possibility it’s running such coverage it can be a pain in the builder and in practice. Then there is which pretty much blows away any Mon that is supposed to answer it on the physical side is the spectrum such as and which can pretty much get deleted by z if boosted. Additionally, by nature if its fire typing it cannot be burned so you try to resort to other methods like twave or toxic to deal with its dd set.

while I think ogerpon-wellspring should definitely have a second look at, especially since its best defensive check (zama-h) and one of its offensive checks (darkrai) got nuked. I don't have many issues w/ gouging greg on the other hand. It's definitely a great mon that requires a lot of respect, but since Z sets are weak to stealth rock and landorus-therian is one of the best mons in the tier rn, I haven't struggled with it too much.

anyways, I want to bring up specs latios again, because it just keeps getting better. Since we just lost darkrai, there aren't many naturally fast choice specs users in the tier right now. Latios's best comparison is Iron Valiant, but the two still have major differences. Latios, for one, is entirely immune to spikes, which has only been getting more and more valueable over time, especially since people are rediscovering how broken hazardstack in general is. Latios getting access to flip turn makes it miles better though, since it can give you so much momentum. I'm currently writing a post w/ specs latios for the rmt forum, so expect some more fleshed-out thoughts once I finish that

 

[IRONM0NK3Y808]

while I think ogerpon-wellspring should definitely have a second look at, especially since its best defensive check (zama-h) and one of its offensive checks (darkrai) got nuked. I don't have many issues w/ gouging greg on the other hand. It's definitely a great mon that requires a lot of respect, but since Z sets are weak to stealth rock and landorus-therian is one of the best mons in the tier rn, I haven't struggled with it too much.

anyways, I want to bring up specs latios again, because it just keeps getting better. Since we just lost darkrai, there aren't many naturally fast choice specs users in the tier right now. Latios's best comparison is Iron Valiant, but the two still have major differences. Latios, for one, is entirely immune to spikes, which has only been getting more and more valueable over time, especially since people are rediscovering how broken hazardstack in general is. Latios getting access to flip turn makes it miles better though, since it can give you so much momentum. I'm currently writing a post w/ specs latios for the rmt forum, so expect some more fleshed-out thoughts once I finish that

I think the issue with Gouging Fire is that when used on grassy terrain or behind a reflect its able to effectively 1v1 landorus, which is it's supposed best check. Since the earthquake damage is halved it takes it from dealing about 80% damage to 40%, which allows gouging fire to get off another dragon dance right infront of landorus - getting it back to +1 and allowing it to ohko with dragonium z.

This is obviously limiting it to a 2 specific archetypes so it might not be justification enough for a ban (not that I entirely want to see it go myself either), but it is definitely it's best set and the people who have used it i'm sure will agree with me.

 

[`ShadowTwo]

It's impressive how by banning a Pokemon (Kingambit) we decapitate almost the entire Top Ranking of the OU in Nat Dex (Kingambit, Dragapult, Gholdengo, Zamazenta, Darkrai, Roaring Moon).

With the ban of Walking Wake and Deoxys-S, we have 8 mons banned in Nat Dex but legal in OU. It's impressive.

 

[sh0shin]

It's almost like there's something more fundamental to be accounted for in the gen than just strong mons.

Natdex has bigger move pools, Z moves, megas, and HP even without Tera so it makes sense the metagames are different, regardless. I do miss my boi Pult tho...

 

[Wildfiree]

I think the issue with Gouging Fire is that when used on grassy terrain or behind a reflect its able to effectively 1v1 landorus, which is it's supposed best check. Since the earthquake damage is halved it takes it from dealing about 80% damage to 40%, which allows gouging fire to get off another dragon dance right infront of landorus - getting it back to +1 and allowing it to ohko with dragonium z.

This is obviously limiting it to a 2 specific archetypes so it might not be justification enough for a ban (not that I entirely want to see it go myself either), but it is definitely it's best set and the people who have used it i'm sure will agree with me.

Yeah I don’t know for sure if goug is worth a test or not 100 percent. However I will say this it’s definitely more annoying in practice than it appears in the builder. I guess we will see how the meta continues to play out. I could honestly see both sides with the stealth rock argument and constant pressure vs it.

 

[FirstlyMe]

It's impressive how by banning a Pokemon (Kingambit) we decapitate almost the entire Top Ranking of the OU in Nat Dex (Kingambit, Dragapult, Gholdengo, Zamazenta, Darkrai, Roaring Moon).

With the ban of Walking Wake and Deoxys-S, we have 8 mons banned in Nat Dex but legal in OU. It's impressive.

Soon to be 9 with darkrai
It’s mainly cuz those pokemon have access to all their moves they’ve ever learnt, as well they have access to Z moves and match up extremely well against the meta
There are other reasons why but to keep it brief, the explanation given above works

 

[boppydop!]

so.. on the topic of a dry tier, what are some innovations that you think could work in NDOU?


these two as an offensive pair have worked exceptionally well in testing, especially when paired with big breakers like mmedi
hsam sets spikes using its STAB on defoggers like corv, while also chipping down lando and ferro and pressuring heatran
kart appreciates the spikes hsam sets up, alongside chipping down its checks and generally becoming a bigger threat as a late game cleaner


IRONM0NK3Y808 put me on this one, proving itself to be one of the scariest breaking cores.
rillaboom is good cleaner and breaker, often chipping down landos with gglide and uturn alongside setting grassy terrain
gouging really likes the extra recovery to fully utilize its excellent defensive stats, and the weakened eq allows dragonium z sets to 1v1 its most effective check in landorus, alongside stantrum naturally threatening many steels in the tier that s/i into rilla like corv tran and msciz, and dragonium being able to break thru checks like pex and alo


i never really learned how to use this core and i dont think it particularly shines rn, but im interested in cc+fs lately and tried to make it work yesterday(it didnt). nevertheless i think it has potential

 

[Wildfiree]

so.. on the topic of a dry tier, what are some innovations that you think could work in NDOU?


these two as an offensive pair have worked exceptionally well in testing, especially when paired with big breakers like mmedi
hsam sets spikes using its STAB on defoggers like corv, while also chipping down lando and ferro and pressuring heatran
kart appreciates the spikes hsam sets up, alongside chipping down its checks and generally becoming a bigger threat as a late game cleaner


IRONM0NK3Y808 put me on this one, proving itself to be one of the scariest breaking cores.
rillaboom is good cleaner and breaker, often chipping down landos with gglide and uturn alongside setting grassy terrain
gouging really likes the extra recovery to fully utilize its excellent defensive stats, and the weakened eq allows dragonium z sets to 1v1 its most effective check in landorus, alongside stantrum naturally threatening many steels in the tier that s/i into rilla like corv tran and msciz, and dragonium being able to break thru checks like pex and alo


i never really learned how to use this core and i dont think it particularly shines rn, but im interested in cc+fs lately and tried to make it work yesterday(it didnt). nevertheless i think it has potential

Went up vs rilla and goug once before got my ass handed to me lol. Really good offensive core grassy terrain can make you haha in landos face. I haven’t tried kart sammy much yet but I’ll be sure to try it out. As for urshi and glowking that’s a throwback to ss ou for me I feel it could have potential again if used in the right hands fs+ fighting type is a certified classic.