252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tera Water Great Tusk in Psychic Terrain: 318-375 (73.2 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
eleki, firepon and metal unban is smth i fw but the rest? hell nah. sneas is still busted even without tera, gambit still shreds everything with knock and bax has spear+scale shot
The Gouge is indeed gone ^
aint some other stuff wall this and it also uses up the mega slot
is gonna be great again. All we need to do now is unban Kingambit and our elephant friend will skyrocket in usage. I may be against a tera ban, but if we do so, I wanna go all the way and bring back some of the Pokemon that could provide stability. Gonna craft a post on Pokemon we can potentially bring back and why, and who we should leave banned.Tera ban at this point is not on the table as far as I know. Past that, even in a non Tera-world Tusk usage wouldn't go up that much with Kingambit back in the tier. Non-tera gambit has a ton of counterplay you don't need to rely on Tusk for it.Well as expected, Gouging Fire is gone. All aboard the Mega Charizard X train. Just need to add a little hazard control. And we know what that means.
View attachment 671965
That's right,
i woukd give zard x uubl at best and isnt dozo mid? it spends half the game in a comaWell for 1, whatever walled Mega Charizard X already walled Gouging Fire (excluding Dragonium Z)
252+ Atk Gouging Fire Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 129-153 (25.5 - 30.3%) -- 5.4% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 168-198 (33.3 - 39.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
And 2, while yes, mega slot is a consideration, its also not that mandatory on teams.
I can see Xard being used in some forms of HO teams and Sun teams, in fact it can even work as a sort of "bluff" in sun due to potentially being Y, even with a Torkoal on the team (Do it isnt its main selling point). And it could very likely climb up to OU proper once people catch up.
What scouting oculars does to a mfI'll be honest, as of right now SV NDOU is possibly the worst tier I've ever played in a PL. I haven't really touched it since DLC2 came out since there were tiers worth giving a shit about again, but I was stunned at just how horrendous this tier has became since it dropped. Bulkier styles feel outright unplayable, there are way too many broken sweepers in the tier and nowhere near enough overlap between them. Honestly, I don't think I'll ever sign up for SV OU for NDPL again unless this tier gets damn near overhauled with bans or unbans, NDRU is so much more enjoyable and I've been helping a ton with tests and building and its so much more fun to play.
Dragonite plays the game on creative mode, and I'm not going to pretend its anything but stupid as of right now. Strictly personally, Its the most broken mon in the tier for me right now and I don't really think its close, but I fully know just how stupid it sounds and feels to call dragonite broken, so if there's an alternate solution that isn't just swinging on tera again I'd love to see it in practice. Encore is dumb, its tera variety is dumb, its movepool feels endless, and very very few actual answers really feel secure vs it. EQ/Ice Spinner/Encore/Roost/Fire Punch/Scale Shot/Facade and a multiple of tera types makes it so just about any counterplay that isnt just salt cure w garg and pray u last feels inconsistent. Whether it be Lele, IDBP Corv, Helmet Lando-T, SD Scizor and yolo Tera Ghosts nothing truly feels effective because there's a tech that fucks with all of them, incentivizing double-dipping for checking it, which is absurdly difficult to accomplish because most things crumble.
Kyurem isn't much better, and Wellspring also stinks up the tier really badly for defensive structures. Kyurems set variety is honestly cancerous, and DD kyurem always feels like it can mop me up on a moments notice if I slip even a single time. I've seen Tera Ground, Electric, Ghost, Fire, Steel, Fairy and various moves between Tera Blast/Roost/Scale Shot/EP/Freeze Dry, etc and each of these changes alter what actually checks it. And this ignores shit like Sub too. Wellspring feels less stupid but that only really is because Dragonite is so profusely horseshit that it holds it back, and I don't think anything else really does, but atleast it lacks the variety of the other 2 shithead dragons. Its damage output is nonsense and its speed tier is just slow enough to be manageable but just fast enough to be annoying to build vs.
Man remember when this tier had a mon on offensive structures that punished all these physical attackers? Remember when it made offense actually have to try to win its games without players being able to smash their head against their keyboard and walk their way into a win w their dragons? Yeah me too. I can't talk that much about how much of a mistake suspecting and banning Zama-Hero was because I missed suspect reqs (mainly because I didn't even notice the test), but that's a minor digression. I know things have passed so unbanning this is likely never gonna happen, but I cannot stress enough banning this was a colossal failure for the tier, and its why this tier is the way it is right now. It has no real bearing on the post but if I didn't say it I think I'd go insane.
As for what I'd do to fix this, honestly a large part of me wants to say Kokoloko Dragonite, Kyurem and Wellspring. I hate Kokoloko, I think it's usually really shitty but frankly this tier is arguably the worst current gen tier to play right now and that's saying alot because SV Ubers is a flaming mess racking in 5.7/10% or summ on enjoyability. Beyond that, I don't truly know. But I know this much, if my NDPL team wasn't as enjoyable as it was, this might clock in for the worst PL experience I've ever had just off of playing alone. I want to like this tier, I really do, especially with how enjoyable it was on older metas. But right now I cant pretend like I've found even a single bit of enjoyment in playing. Banning Gouging Fire helped, but frankly all that did was take it from a 2/10 to a 3.5/10 for me
I can agree with you here. The current state of the meta heavily rewards offensive gameplay over defensive ones, if you tell me what a ratio would be i would say a an 80% offense and 20% defense. In fact, I went back to gen 8 to get away from this meta for a while, and I miss how balanced the game felt, even something like Ash Gren feels completetly manageable in comparison to gen 9 nd were one slip up and you get clipped by a Tera boosted mon. Now one thing I did find interesting here is your mentioning of Dragonite, I personally havent considered Dragonite that broken up until now, at least not more than Kyurem and Ogerpon Wellsrping. However, I wouldn't discard it from a potential suspect, if the Ogerpon Wellspring and Kyurem bans end up being not enough (which they SHOULD happen) I think we could consider it. But overall, we NEED to make changes, and we need them NOW.I'll be honest, as of right now SV NDOU is possibly the worst tier I've ever played in a PL. I haven't really touched it since DLC2 came out since there were tiers worth giving a shit about again, but I was stunned at just how horrendous this tier has became since it dropped. Bulkier styles feel outright unplayable, there are way too many broken sweepers in the tier and nowhere near enough overlap between them. Honestly, I don't think I'll ever sign up for SV OU for NDPL again unless this tier gets damn near overhauled with bans or unbans, NDRU is so much more enjoyable and I've been helping a ton with tests and building and its so much more fun to play.
Dragonite plays the game on creative mode, and I'm not going to pretend its anything but stupid as of right now. Strictly personally, Its the most broken mon in the tier for me right now and I don't really think its close, but I fully know just how stupid it sounds and feels to call dragonite broken, so if there's an alternate solution that isn't just swinging on tera again I'd love to see it in practice. Encore is dumb, its tera variety is dumb, its movepool feels endless, and very very few actual answers really feel secure vs it. EQ/Ice Spinner/Encore/Roost/Fire Punch/Scale Shot/Facade and a multiple of tera types makes it so just about any counterplay that isnt just salt cure w garg and pray u last feels inconsistent. Whether it be Lele, IDBP Corv, Helmet Lando-T, SD Scizor and yolo Tera Ghosts nothing truly feels effective because there's a tech that fucks with all of them, incentivizing double-dipping for checking it, which is absurdly difficult to accomplish because most things crumble.
Kyurem isn't much better, and Wellspring also stinks up the tier really badly for defensive structures. Kyurems set variety is honestly cancerous, and DD kyurem always feels like it can mop me up on a moments notice if I slip even a single time. I've seen Tera Ground, Electric, Ghost, Fire, Steel, Fairy and various moves between Tera Blast/Roost/Scale Shot/EP/Freeze Dry, etc and each of these changes alter what actually checks it. And this ignores shit like Sub too. Wellspring feels less stupid but that only really is because Dragonite is so profusely horseshit that it holds it back, and I don't think anything else really does, but atleast it lacks the variety of the other 2 shithead dragons. Its damage output is nonsense and its speed tier is just slow enough to be manageable but just fast enough to be annoying to build vs.
Man remember when this tier had a mon on offensive structures that punished all these physical attackers? Remember when it made offense actually have to try to win its games without players being able to smash their head against their keyboard and walk their way into a win w their dragons? Yeah me too. I can't talk that much about how much of a mistake suspecting and banning Zama-Hero was because I missed suspect reqs (mainly because I didn't even notice the test), but that's a minor digression. I know things have passed so unbanning this is likely never gonna happen, but I cannot stress enough banning this was a colossal failure for the tier, and its why this tier is the way it is right now. It has no real bearing on the post but if I didn't say it I think I'd go insane.
As for what I'd do to fix this, honestly a large part of me wants to say Kokoloko Dragonite, Kyurem and Wellspring. I hate Kokoloko, I think it's usually really shitty but frankly this tier is arguably the worst current gen tier to play right now and that's saying alot because SV Ubers is a flaming mess racking in 5.7/10% or summ on enjoyability. Beyond that, I don't truly know. But I know this much, if my NDPL team wasn't as enjoyable as it was, this might clock in for the worst PL experience I've ever had just off of playing alone. I want to like this tier, I really do, especially with how enjoyable it was on older metas. But right now I cant pretend like I've found even a single bit of enjoyment in playing. Banning Gouging Fire helped, but frankly all that did was take it from a 2/10 to a 3.5/10 for me
Regardless of previous takes, zama-hero was a big broken bitch. You're making it sound like a physical wall when it was a braindead broken sweeper which took a fat 0 from any physical attacker. Banning it is for sure the right move, and that was also back when ghold was in the tier to check it. It was incredibly overwhelming and restrictive.
Man remember when this tier had a mon on offensive structures that punished all these physical attackers? Remember when it made offense actually have to try to win its games without players being able to smash their head against their keyboard and walk their way into a win w their dragons? Yeah me too. I can't talk that much about how much of a mistake suspecting and banning Zama-Hero was because I missed suspect reqs (mainly because I didn't even notice the test), but that's a minor digression. I know things have passed so unbanning this is likely never gonna happen, but I cannot stress enough banning this was a colossal failure for the tier, and its why this tier is the way it is right now. It has no real bearing on the post but if I didn't say it I think I'd go insane.
As for what I'd do to fix this, honestly a large part of me wants to say Kokoloko Dragonite, Kyurem and Wellspring. I hate Kokoloko, I think it's usually really shitty but frankly this tier is arguably the worst current gen tier to play right now and that's saying alot because SV Ubers is a flaming mess racking in 5.7/10% or summ on enjoyability. Beyond that, I don't truly know. But I know this much, if my NDPL team wasn't as enjoyable as it was, this might clock in for the worst PL experience I've ever had just off of playing alone. I want to like this tier, I really do, especially with how enjoyable it was on older metas. But right now I cant pretend like I've found even a single bit of enjoyment in playing. Banning Gouging Fire helped, but frankly all that did was take it from a 2/10 to a 3.5/10 for me
As someone who voted to ban Zama, I can't agree with this. Zama may have kept physical attackers more in line to a degree, but it brought its own flavor of miserable to play against with its obnoxious tera choices and ability to claim games vs teams lacking overly specific cores. It didn't solve issues, it just added more. And it was especially obnoxious to try and contain on top of other big threats who could just pile on and break down Zama's few consistent checks and let it sweep easier.
The council knows what they inevitably have to do. The timing couldn’t be more unfortunate… or could it be precisely what is needed to restore faith in this joke of a tier. In the midst of NDPL, I’ve seen a few respected players voice their discontent with the state of the meta and it’s become rather obvious that there is only one, maybe two solutions to save this tier from extinction. This won’t be a detailed post about why we should have a third suspect, in fact I won’t even state specifically what I’m referencing because as you should’ve guessed by now…
Why is now the correct time? The tier is already in a dire state, so if we’re holding out because we’re afraid of the chaos that follows then think again. Is it really much worse than what we’re dealing with now? The tier is uncompetitive and the enjoyability is probably close to an all time low but we won’t know that until we get a survey. These types of tours are the perfect environment for innovation and meta development. Of course a successful outcome in a third suspect would shake up the entire meta but so long as we keep the unban slate at a minimum, it shouldn’t be long before we are in a better, more stable position than we stand right now to finish the biggest ND tour strongly which could leave off a better impression for people who are still on the fence about the tier.
Allowing this to continue is unacceptable and it should be abundantly clear that subtle changes and strides aren’t enough to tackle the problem we face. The two solutions are either suspect numero tres or Kokoloko. I don’t believe the latter will work but I’m willing to try anything because there’s still people who don’t want the red button pushed.
Conclusion and my more personal views: The motivation to play this tier is dwindling because of the laziness in this council. I’ll excuse the times where they’ve shown to make rash decisions such as the first suspect or QB Ursaluna without community support before PL but now we’re just not doing suspecting things and hoping the tier will magically get better. News flash: Gouging Fire is banned and the meta still sucks, nothing you ban will help. I am begging the council to NOT wait until after PL to host another survey, it’s urgent we do this before playoffs. And to the community members who care about the current and future state of this tier, please continue to voice your concerns on forums and other platforms that are appropriate.
